Sometimes I have a hard time explaining transsexualism to these dolts online. Yes yes I know it's stupid and pointless to try to do so on the internet, which is why I cut this short on him. Anyways, read/skim through this and tell me what you think of his side of the argument, how well I held up, and what you would say in defense against him.
BTW this is from a different site, not on Susans, so don't worry, lol.
BTW again this conversation started with an innocent question about my breasts, then i said hormones, then he asked about them. (I'm totally open about myself on that site and it is not a trans support site)
Quote from: Gracie FAISEQuote from: Quote from: Gracie FAISEQuote from: Quote from: Gracie FAISE
It's been 7 months. I'm nearing an A cup
Kind of a lot of time and probably lots of money for a little bit. Worth it?
The hormones are inexpensive, and breasts develop over 5 years. I'm only 10% complete.
Plus breasts are only one of many, many things hormones change for me.
It is totally worth it.
Good thing you're starting young. I hate it when 50 year old men decide to become girls and look like the ugliest transsexuals ever.
You could pass in another year or two I think. You get away with it now, I bet, but only as a boyish girl.
I've been passing since before I started hormones, and I don't think you give me enough credit. I'm far from boyish. I may have a lacking figure, but I'm nowhere near "boyish."
And you shouldn't hate the late transitioners. They came from a different era. Most late transitioners couldn't transition because back in the time they were my age they would have been killed or excommunicated from their community, not embraced and accepted like I have been.
Sure they don't always look 100% great, but it's not about looking good, it's about finally correcting a birth defect that you have suffered all your life.
Quote from: Quote from: Gracie FAISEQuote from: Quote from: Gracie FAISEQuote from:
Transsexuals need to stop acting like they're suffering. You guys are some of the biggest whiners in the medical world, and even cancer patients don't complain nearly as much.
Plenty of people with more serious defects are less upset about it. Besides, some of you (not all) are mentally defective, not physically. Gender identity is a feature of social and emotional upbringing, and a significant number of transsexuals are a result of unique circumstances in life, not birth.
And I'll always wonder why there are more men who believe they are women than women who believe they are men.
It's a birth defect, not a mental disorder. This is a proven fact. Those who think they are through a mental disorder has that mental disorder diagnosed and treated. They are the ones who do not transition. That is why we have a very annoying screening process we all have to go through. The "gate-keepers" as they are known in the community.
We are so outspoken because we need to be. Cancer patients are beaten and killed by police for sport. Cancer patients don't have to sit through annoying psychiatric screenings to prove they have cancer. Cancer patients don't get kicked on the streets and forced to take up prostitution just to survive when their friends, family, and community find out they have cancer.
Yes, there are far more wickedly deforming birth defects out there, but they all get universal support and care. People with transsexualism tend to get kicked to the curb and dismissed as sexual deviants and perverts.
Gender is, in great part, a social construct. A creation of nurture, not nature. But not 100%. A good chunk of gender is biological, which was proven with many experiments where males were raised as and fully told that they were female. Removed testicles at birth and raised as a girl in a totally stereotypical female upbringing. On the hypothesis that gender is 100% nurture, one could raise a male to fully believe and identify as a female. Do you know what happened in every singe experiment? That male, raised as a female, showed strong signs through their life of a "female to male" transsexual. All experiments failed, and one of the subjects even killed themselves (and so did his brother) when they found out they were really a boy the whole time.
In my opinion, people with transsexualism are one of the most discriminated against individuals in the United States, if not the world. We're not even covered in the anti-discrimination laws (unless you live in california like I am). We can be fired, not hired, denied service and ridiculed at stores, etc just because we have transsexualism. That is why we need to be outspoken. Because no one else will for us, unlike those with other birth defects.
So please don't tell me what is and isn't transsexualism/gender identity disorder. I'm pretty dang sure I know what I am.
I never said you aren't, but I know for a fact that many who pull the gender confusion card are just men who want to wear dresses because they are in fact perverts.
Plenty of scientific evidence covers the facts around many supposed "transgendered" people being in fact socially retarded. For example, long hair, clothing, jewelry, make-up, etc etc etc are not sexual traits, they are social values.
Yet transsexuals seem to believe that in order to be female they need validation, which they think is begotten by adapting to the social image of a female, thereby having no personal identity and simply going along with their v****a envy using other women as examples.
I mean, if you look like a man, why not dress like a man, even though you're a woman on the inside? Plenty of girls with masculine features dress like men and they're OK with it.
Let me first explain that there is a difference between "trasngender" and "transsexual." Transseuxals have a birth defect and is one of many kinds of transgendered people. The others that are under the "transgender umbrella" include ->-bleeped-<-s and cross dressers, they're the ones you're thinking about.
Also, all the talk about desiring feminine things like long hair and make up, though I agree with you it is weird to hear people talk about it, is not proof that they don't have transsexualism. Of course people who wanted something all their life and just now got it are going to talk about it.
Also, a lot of that talk that is said on television is just a way to connect others to their issues. People are totally unaware of what transsexualism consists of, thus we tend to have to talk to them about it in aesthetic terms. No one is going to give us the time of day except for medical scientists, who already know anyway, if we jabbered on about sex chromosomes not fully predicting the outcome of sex, and that many many factors play a part in skewing the proper hormone and chemical releases needed to make that chromosomal make-up true. No, we have to say "I know I was always a girl because of *insert lists of commonly perceived feminine things*" and then people go "oh, I see."
But that gets into a much deeper conversation and I'd rather not explain it again.
As for masculine women dressing masculine? They can do that because they have no need to secure or prove their sex. That is fundamental and unchanging truth for cisgendered individuals. People with transsexual don't get to have that much of the time. Late transitioners are the perfect example for this. They have to do so much just to create passibility that they are female, that to start dressing masculine will only increase the odds that they will be identified as male again.
Also, it plays into personal preference. You seem to have only been exposed to the "television transsexual" where everything is unicorns, rainbows, skirts, and make up. This is not the majority. The majority is very similar to me. Just average ordinary dressing/looking men and women trying to live their lives like anyone else.
See the bold statement above. My point and protest against most transsexuals is the need for validation and security. It's as immature and as objectionable as a nudist refusing to wear clothes in public places. This is a society that has no obligation to give a damn about your special circumstances unless otherwise you are disabled, and transsexualism is a disorder and defect with no inherent disabling factors.
It disgusts me that they cry about how "unfair" it is to be a transsexual, but most of the difficulties are created by the fact that they desire more than tolerance -- they desire acceptance and equality, which is unrealistic considering you are inherently unequal due to the social defect which you embrace rather than suppress. And yes, it does need to be suppressed in public domain, because almost anything objectionable should avoid becoming a spectacle if possible. For obvious reasons not everyone is prepared to accept someone who is effectively "backwards," and there's no reason why they should be.
Again, I blame the fact that femininity is strongly associated with social status and societal acceptance, which makes transsexuals some of the most pretentious and obnoxious individuals. I've known more than five, personally, and that's a lot considering how uncommon it is. The females who are decidedly male are the most easy to get along with.
Why do we here at Susan's need to see your conversations at other sites?
Sarah L.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on November 19, 2008, 06:11:24 PM
Why do we here at Susan's need to see your conversations at other sites?
Sarah L.
It's not about my conversation per-se, it is about the opinions expressed by the person I am talking with, as I stated at the top of the post. He seems to have his own, strong, hard to crack opinions, and I wanted to know how others would counter those arguments.
I don't debate such people, works for me at least.
There is nothing intellectual about this person, for that reason arguing with him intellectually will get you nowhere. Even with intelligent, intellectual people, topics that are highly charged with emotion cannot be handled intellectually. The simple fact is that the most effective way to convince most people is to have them become personally connected with one of the people they are prejudiced against. Slowly they change from, "people who are X are perverted," to, "people who are X are perverted, but not you," to, "some people who are X are perverted," to, "people who are X are just ordinary people." There is no shortcut to this process.
Wow... just... wow.
I don't even know what to say. The arbitrary, disdainful, superficial, judgemental attitude displayed there is simply staggering, and coming from someone with obviously so little grasp of the condition and it's impact... frankly, it's almost laughable.
The old adage "Never wrestle a pig because you'll both just end up getting dirty... and the pig likes it" seems to fit. *sigh*
Gracie, you handled yourself admirably. Beyond admirably. Keeping a level head and not letting emotion dictate the tone of the discussion showed remarkable restraint and maturity. You should be proud of yourself, honey.
Personally, I would have either said "That's your opinion and you're entitled to it." And left it there... or something totally unrepeatable here. I haven't decided yet.
Quote from: Leiandra on November 19, 2008, 06:30:40 PM
Wow... just... wow.
I don't even know what to say. The arbitrary, disdainful, superficial, judgemental attitude displayed there is simply staggering, and coming from someone with obviously so little grasp of the condition and it's impact... frankly, it's almost laughable.
The old adage "Never wrestle a pig because you'll both just end up getting dirty... and the pig likes it" seems to fit. *sigh*
Gracie, you handled yourself admirably. Beyond admirably. Keeping a level head and not letting emotion dictate the tone of the discussion showed remarkable restraint and maturity. You should be proud of yourself, honey.
Personally, I would have either said "That's your opinion and you're entitled to it." And left it there... or something totally unrepeatable here. I haven't decided yet.
That pig quote is pretty good. I think I'l remember that.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 19, 2008, 06:39:26 PM
Quote from: Leiandra on November 19, 2008, 06:30:40 PM
Wow... just... wow.
I don't even know what to say. The arbitrary, disdainful, superficial, judgemental attitude displayed there is simply staggering, and coming from someone with obviously so little grasp of the condition and it's impact... frankly, it's almost laughable.
The old adage "Never wrestle a pig because you'll both just end up getting dirty... and the pig likes it" seems to fit. *sigh*
Gracie, you handled yourself admirably. Beyond admirably. Keeping a level head and not letting emotion dictate the tone of the discussion showed remarkable restraint and maturity. You should be proud of yourself, honey.
Personally, I would have either said "That's your opinion and you're entitled to it." And left it there... or something totally unrepeatable here. I haven't decided yet.
That pig quote is pretty good. I think I'l remember that.
And remember this as well, Gracie. Bacon smells o-so-very-good when it's frying!! :laugh:
You done good, girl, but Sarah makes a good point about translating a conversation from one board to another. Maybe a synopsis of what was said by him, or them, would be better?
But, whichever, you done good! :)
Nichole
Not to piss the entire site off at me, but I can understand the slight distaste of older transsexuals. Not because I view them as any less human, but simply because ya know, some of them aren't very good looking and some also are really immature emotionally and it's annoying to put up with. I suppose it might be that my first support sites were based off of Gaia, just like Claire, where all the members are under 25 and are all nice to look at lol.
However, members on this site have consistently proven those beliefs I hold wrong. From success stories like Kate to wonderful personalities like Nichole, to passion like Nero, to strong minds like Tekla and Keira, I've learned that every group of people can come in all shapes and sizes.
I think that before passing judgment, that dude needs to educate himself on exactly who and what he's judging.
A pretty smart person once told me that you can't use reason to talk someone out of some belief they got to without using reason in the first place. By the same token, you can't use intellectual arguments on people who didn't get to where they were by using their intellect.
As I tell people at work when they try to makes sense of our screwed-up corporate logic,
"Don't try to understand it - you will just hurt yourself."
We must work in the same place, I tell people all the time "If it makes sense, then that's NOT going to be the way we are going to do it."
The way he keeps reffering everyhting to a sociological point of view leads me to wonder if hes a sociology teacher *shudder*.
People of that mind set often tend to believe that everything is a product of society and biology dosen't count for ->-bleeped-<-. Useually seems to me most psychology teachers are more reasonable and hold a more balanced viewpoint of a combination of nature and nuture. Sounds like this individual is basing to much of his theories off of personal experiences or only partial baised research instead of taking time to review the bigger picture.
Quote from: Fox on November 19, 2008, 09:00:59 PM
The way he keeps reffering everyhting to a sociological point of view leads me to wonder if hes a sociology teacher *shudder*.
People of that mind set often tend to believe that everything is a product of society and biology dosen't count for ->-bleeped-<-. Useually seems to me most psychology teachers are more reasonable and hold a more balanced viewpoint of a combination of nature and nuture. Sounds like this individual is basing to much of his theories off of personal experiences or only partial baised research instead of taking time to review the bigger picture.
To me it sounds like he just saw a handful of documentaries and knows how to type well. Everything he said could be easily made out of what is said in all the annoyingly bad attempts at accurately portraying people with transsexualism in documentaries. Most of which always containing twinkly music, soft focus lenses with shots of the MtF applying make up and shopping for clothes, that same person later explaining how they always wanted to play with dolls when they were little. That could be easily skewed into the opinions he held.
Ditto! There's the: 1) Corporate way, 2) the correct way and 3) My Way (which, knowing the difference, usually wins out) . . .
Where I am it's "the right way, the wrong way and the union way." At least the Union writes it down. Back in the day it was the right way, wrong way and Dead way. Which was often no way at all, but in fairness, they were kind of making it up as they went along.
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:09:42 AM
(gotta play with it, actually works!) :icon_bunch:
I LOLed so hard spaghetti sauce just came out my nose.
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:14:00 AM
o->-bleeped-<-gropegrabohbbybbyG ??? ??? ???
lol Such A Mind!
Want to know the full version?
o->-bleeped-<-gropgrabohbbybbyGRABTHEBBQSAUCEbouncysquirtsquirt
wait wut?
you want me to come see you? do i bring bbq sauce?
What the heck have you and tekla been talking about!? I'm totally lost.
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:36:22 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 12:32:56 AM
What the heck have you and tekla been talking about!? I'm totally lost.
Sorry Gracie for messing up thread with Annwyn. We digressed, posts gone . . .
So if I went to Rio whatever I'd probably get picked up by some DRUNK guy who'd get mad at my EXTRA PART and I'd be the victim of a HATE CRIME.
And I can place certain EMPHASIS on words by CAPITALIZING them like THIS.
Mwahahahhahaha.
Quote from: Annwyno->-bleeped-<-gropgrabohbbybbyGRABTHEBBQSAUCEbouncysquirtsquirt
wtf?
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:36:22 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 12:32:56 AM
What the heck have you and tekla been talking about!? I'm totally lost.
Sorry Gracie for messing up thread with Annwyn. We digressed, posts gone . . .
Annwyn????
WAAHHH????
I just wanted to know what you were talking about! You didn't have to go and do that!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa227%2Fpixieluvsall%2Fpervkittenlol.jpg&hash=3de864fb6fb9117fa9012f1675cc4d9093d0835e)
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:52:43 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 12:38:57 AMI just wanted to know what you were talking about! You didn't have to go and do that!
I told you, we digressed from the topic of your thread. Truly, it was telka's fault, again! I was trying to permanently get rid of Annwyn by offering to send him to Rio, which is where he belongs, on condition he *never* post here at Susans again.
Annwyn! Behave! :icon_bunch:
I know you digressed. > -< I'm not asking what you were doing I was asking what you were talking about. All this "corporate, union, self" business.
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:52:43 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 12:38:57 AMI just wanted to know what you were talking about! You didn't have to go and do that!
I told you, we digressed from the topic of your thread. Truly, it was telka's fault, again! I was trying to permanently get rid of Annwyn by offering to send him to Rio, which is where he belongs, on condition he *never* post here at Susans again.
Annwyn! Behave! :icon_bunch:
You do realize that even if I look like a FtM... I'm MtF.
Get your pronouns straight-_-
Quote from: Annwyn on November 20, 2008, 12:54:42 AM
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:52:43 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 12:38:57 AMI just wanted to know what you were talking about! You didn't have to go and do that!
I told you, we digressed from the topic of your thread. Truly, it was telka's fault, again! I was trying to permanently get rid of Annwyn by offering to send him to Rio, which is where he belongs, on condition he *never* post here at Susans again.
Annwyn! Behave! :icon_bunch:
You do realize that even if I look like a FtM... I'm MtF.
Get your pronouns straight-_-
It wouldn't be mistaken if you had your gender marker in your post profile
You could use gender neutral pronouns, if you are in doubt...
Quote from: je on November 20, 2008, 12:57:03 AM
QuoteIT wouldn't be mistaken if you had your gender marker in your post profile
You could use gender neutral pronouns, if you are in doubt...
I'm not in doubt.
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 01:23:12 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 12:54:21 AMAll this "corporate, union, self" business.
telka and I got on the topic of *work*, mine being non-union which is why I left . . . and then get even everyday by hanging out in places like Rio instead.
Annwyn *letter sig* ? ? ? :icon_bunch:
Quote from: Annwyn on November 20, 2008, 12:54:42 AMGet your pronouns straight-_-
<a href="https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,46494.msg301607.html#msg301607">i suppose it's your use of 'dude" that throws me! Sorry!</a>
0 -o; Dude is a unisex term of endearment. I use it all the time for anyone.
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 01:46:44 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 01:26:31 AM0 -o; Dude is a unisex term of endearment. I use it all the time for anyone.
??? ??? ???
Quote from: 1. dude 3115 up, 416 down
A word that americans use to address each other. Particularly stoners, surfers and skaters.
dude, i'm like......dude
lol And Southerners! Sorry, but the less in the South, the better! lol :icon_bunch:
(thus my offer to do away with Annwyn!)
Don't see how that contradicts with it being a unisex term of endearment.
Was that 'definition' taken from urban dictionary? Anyway, I always thought dude was a unisex term as well...
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 19, 2008, 09:08:10 PM
Everything he said could be easily made out of what is said in all the annoyingly bad attempts at accurately portraying people with transsexualism in documentaries. Most of which always containing twinkly music, soft focus lenses with shots of the MtF applying make up and shopping for clothes, that same person later explaining how they always wanted to play with dolls when they were little.
*makes rude noise*
Wanted to play with dolls? I
did play with dolls! They make it sound like repressed desires are what made us the way we are.
Gracie, I think you handled him admirably. The fact that he got nasty shows that you got to him. Maybe, just maybe you've left a seed there ... or more likely not, but one can dream right? ;)
~Simone.
Love the "wrestle a pig" saying, gonna start using it - as we all should when dealing with people like that.
You handled yourself really well Gracie.
And yeaaaah!! Gender neutral terms, when need more of them, don't take start taking terms like "dude" or "guys" away from us.
I was talking with Northern Jane about non-rational thinking in the workplace, which is even more common than non-rational thinking on-line. I didn't say anything thing to Annwyn.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 12:55:59 AM
Quote from: Annwyn on November 20, 2008, 12:54:42 AM
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:52:43 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 12:38:57 AMI just wanted to know what you were talking about! You didn't have to go and do that!
I told you, we digressed from the topic of your thread. Truly, it was telka's fault, again! I was trying to permanently get rid of Annwyn by offering to send him to Rio, which is where he belongs, on condition he *never* post here at Susans again.
Annwyn! Behave! :icon_bunch:
You do realize that even if I look like a FtM... I'm MtF.
Get your pronouns straight-_-
It wouldn't be mistaken if you had your gender marker in your post profile
she does.
Quoteshe does.
She didn't have it set at that moment.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 01:26:31 AM
0 -o; Dude is a unisex term of endearment. I use it all the time for anyone.
you just contradicted yourself.
Posted on: November 20, 2008, 08:32:55 am
Quote from: je on November 20, 2008, 09:32:26 AM
Quoteshe does.
She didn't have it set at that moment.
weird i thought she had.
Soooo that DUDE was a real jerk and I don't know why you spent so much time trying to work on him Claire.
He obviously has a thing for you, and possibly other attractive MtFs, but doesn't really care about the feelings or struggles of the rest of us not so pretty, passing, transsexuals.
As far as I'm concerned you can get some crisco and shove a shotgun up his -bleep-.
Quote from: Annwyn on November 20, 2008, 09:42:16 AM
He obviously has a thing for you, and possibly other attractive MtFs, but doesn't really care about the feelings or struggles of the rest of us not so pretty, passing, transsexuals.
OMG TRANNEEZ SUK BUT NOT U UR CUTE.
Is that supposed to make her feel special or something?
*offers to kidney punch the guy*
Quote from: iFindMeHere on November 20, 2008, 09:33:31 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 01:26:31 AM
0 -o; Dude is a unisex term of endearment. I use it all the time for anyone.
you just contradicted yourself.
How is that a contradiction?
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 11:40:45 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on November 20, 2008, 09:33:31 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 01:26:31 AM
0 -o; Dude is a unisex term of endearment. I use it all the time for anyone.
you just contradicted yourself.
How is that a contradiction?
Well first you claimed "it wouldn't happen if you had a gender marker up" and then "it's unisex."
Quote from: iFindMeHere on November 20, 2008, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 11:40:45 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on November 20, 2008, 09:33:31 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 01:26:31 AM
0 -o; Dude is a unisex term of endearment. I use it all the time for anyone.
you just contradicted yourself.
How is that a contradiction?
Well first you claimed "it wouldn't happen if you had a gender marker up" and then "it's unisex."
No, what wouldn't happen is Anwwyn wouldn't be called by male pronouns on accident if she had her marker up on there. That's waht I was talking about.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 11:40:45 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on November 20, 2008, 09:33:31 AM
you just contradicted yourself.
How is that a contradiction?
"The question is: Why are people afraid of contradictions?"
--Ludwig Wittgenstein
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 20, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 11:40:45 AM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on November 20, 2008, 09:33:31 AM
you just contradicted yourself.
How is that a contradiction?
"The question is: Why are people afraid of contradictions?"
--Ludwig Wittgenstein
For the same reason why people don't like having warning signals flashing on their dashboard when there is nothing wrong with your car.
Posted on: November 20, 2008, 05:28:48 pm
Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 01:15:00 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 11:49:37 AM. . . Anwwyn wouldn't be called by male pronouns on accident if she had her marker up
Gracie, sorry we started something here - iFindMeHere *clam up* - and both stop with the "quotes" plz (some of us do know how to *scroll back*)! Why is every 'lil thing turns to major debate here, Annwyn & I were just having fun in a very wee hour of the am and, as usual, *things got outta hand* (lol Annwyn! YOU STOW IT TOO!). I apologized to ALL already and stand by my opinion of the use of the term *dude* as it relates within the context of Annwyn,
And To Nobody Else! The "misuse" was no "accident" really inspired by years(?) of Annwyn abuse?
What does "<a href="http://bookblog.net/gender/genie.php">the gender genie</a>" say? :icon_bunch:
(oops! i suppose Annwyn's been on my 'ignore list' long enough!)
I actually prefer seeing qoutes right in the post. It makes everything look organized. I'm a stickler for organization.
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 19, 2008, 06:29:43 PM
There is nothing intellectual about this person, for that reason arguing with him intellectually will get you nowhere. Even with intelligent, intellectual people, topics that are highly charged with emotion cannot be handled intellectually. The simple fact is that the most effective way to convince most people is to have them become personally connected with one of the people they are prejudiced against. Slowly they change from, "people who are X are perverted," to, "people who are X are perverted, but not you," to, "some people who are X are perverted," to, "people who are X are just ordinary people." There is no shortcut to this process.
I see a lot of truth in this statement, at least from my experiences. I've noticed some of the people I know (my parents are a prime example, actually) have that attitude towards me: "people who are X are perverted, but not you". I never quite thought of it in the terms of "if I can't convince them of something intellectually, maybe they'll understand it on an emotional level," but that really makes a lot of sense.
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 20, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
"The question is: Why are people afraid of contradictions?"
--Ludwig Wittgenstein
For the same reason why people don't like having warning signals flashing on their dashboard when there is nothing wrong with your car.
Unless you're going to tell me it's because they were taught be bothered by it, I guess you'll need to explain that one to me too. It's just a light bulb.
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 21, 2008, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 20, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
"The question is: Why are people afraid of contradictions?"
--Ludwig Wittgenstein
For the same reason why people don't like having warning signals flashing on their dashboard when there is nothing wrong with your car.
Unless you're going to tell me it's because they were taught be bothered by it, I guess you'll need to explain that one to me too. It's just a light bulb.
You're telling me a blinking light in your eyeball you can't make go away is a taught irritant?
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 21, 2008, 03:15:19 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 21, 2008, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 20, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
"The question is: Why are people afraid of contradictions?"
--Ludwig Wittgenstein
For the same reason why people don't like having warning signals flashing on their dashboard when there is nothing wrong with your car.
Unless you're going to tell me it's because they were taught be bothered by it, I guess you'll need to explain that one to me too. It's just a light bulb.
You're telling me a blinking light in your eyeball you can't make go away is a taught irritant?
Yes, of course it is.
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 21, 2008, 07:37:23 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 21, 2008, 03:15:19 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 21, 2008, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 20, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
"The question is: Why are people afraid of contradictions?"
--Ludwig Wittgenstein
For the same reason why people don't like having warning signals flashing on their dashboard when there is nothing wrong with your car.
Unless you're going to tell me it's because they were taught be bothered by it, I guess you'll need to explain that one to me too. It's just a light bulb.
You're telling me a blinking light in your eyeball you can't make go away is a taught irritant?
Yes, of course it is.
Then I guess chinese water torture is a taught irritant too.
A taut irritant? :)
Nichole
Our world is becoming more understanding but sterotypes are firmly entrenched. I wish I had an answer on a way to educate and enlighten but I don't. The one tool that has worked the best for me has been the time I spend in public interacting with others and lettting them see I am a kind, caring, feeling human being. Last month after a day of shopping I stopped at an Olive Garden. It was busy so I sat at the bar. The girl working the bar was not friendly to me but I talked to her anyway. She warmed a little so I tipped her well. As I stood to leave she came over and thanked me for coming in and said she hoped I would come back again? She then thanked me for the tip and smiled as she said, good-night. I'm not sure I could have come close to opening her mind online, no matter how intellectual the conversation?
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 21, 2008, 07:40:49 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 21, 2008, 07:37:23 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 21, 2008, 03:15:19 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 21, 2008, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 20, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
"The question is: Why are people afraid of contradictions?"
--Ludwig Wittgenstein
For the same reason why people don't like having warning signals flashing on their dashboard when there is nothing wrong with your car.
Unless you're going to tell me it's because they were taught be bothered by it, I guess you'll need to explain that one to me too. It's just a light bulb.
You're telling me a blinking light in your eyeball you can't make go away is a taught irritant?
Yes, of course it is.
Then I guess chinese water torture is a taught irritant too.
I've never had any trouble ignoring the blinking light on the dashboard for up to a year. But you never answered the original question of why people are afraid of contradictions. I've found life much more comfortable when I live in acceptance of contradiction. It opens limitless possibilities. And the Dialectic is an accepted part of philosophy and religion.
I am contradiction. I am lightness and dark. I am saint and sinner. I am day and night. I am springtime and harvest. I am the ocean and the shore. I am male and female. I am senior citizen and child. I am the subject and object of all my actions. I am all opposites held in tension and creating each other. I am me.
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 22, 2008, 07:49:52 AM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 21, 2008, 07:40:49 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 21, 2008, 07:37:23 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 21, 2008, 03:15:19 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 21, 2008, 03:12:09 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 06:32:42 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 20, 2008, 01:45:16 PM
"The question is: Why are people afraid of contradictions?"
--Ludwig Wittgenstein
For the same reason why people don't like having warning signals flashing on their dashboard when there is nothing wrong with your car.
Unless you're going to tell me it's because they were taught be bothered by it, I guess you'll need to explain that one to me too. It's just a light bulb.
You're telling me a blinking light in your eyeball you can't make go away is a taught irritant?
Yes, of course it is.
Then I guess chinese water torture is a taught irritant too.
I've never had any trouble ignoring the blinking light on the dashboard for up to a year. But you never answered the original question of why people are afraid of contradictions. I've found life much more comfortable when I live in acceptance of contradiction. It opens limitless possibilities. And the Dialectic is an accepted part of philosophy and religion.
I am contradiction. I am lightness and dark. I am saint and sinner. I am day and night. I am springtime and harvest. I am the ocean and the shore. I am male and female. I am senior citizen and child. I am the subject and object of all my actions. I am all opposites held in tension and creating each other. I am me.
You're being unnecessarily difficult.
Yes, accepting the existence of yin and yang is a good thing, but that nothing to do with the context of this thread or the post you have quoted to answer that question.
Why are people afraid of contradiction? It's not a fear. Contradicting yourself means you are a hypocrite. It means you are wrong, and people don't like to be wrong.
As for philosophical, yes, you have left
and right, but you can only go left or right, not left and right. If you go left
and right, then you're not going anywhere, you stay right in the same place, making no progression because you directions of travel are contradicting themselves.
Tell it as straight as you believe it to be right though it may be a contradiction to another. But if you believe it to be the truth then just say you are entitled to your opinions, just as I am entitled to mine. So let us say that we mutually agree to disagree and go on with our lives in the direction we believe to be correct.
Out of six and half billion people on the face of this planet and each individual one will have a different interpretation of the same concept, so who is to judge who has the right concept and who is off in left field.
It is far better for a person to remain silent and be suspected of being a fool than it is for that person to open their mouth and remove all doubt.
Knowing this has saved me from many lumps on my head.
I enjoy a bit of mental gymnastics
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on November 22, 2008, 12:29:55 PM
Tell it as straight as you believe it to be right though it may be a contradiction to another. But if you believe it to be the truth then just say you are entitled to your opinions, just as I am entitled to mine. So let us say that we mutually agree to disagree and go on with our lives in the direction we believe to be correct.
Out of six and half billion people on the face of this planet and each individual one will have a different interpretation of the same concept, so who is to judge who has the right concept and who is off in left field.
It is far better for a person to remain silent and be suspected of being a fool than it is for that person to open their mouth and remove all doubt.
Knowing this has saved me from many lumps on my head.
I enjoy a bit of mental gymnastics
Cindy
O'rly?
What defines a fool?
One that will step in front of a freight train just because someone else said it was safe for them to do so.
Or would you like to Analise that question a we bit more then rephrase to the satisfaction of the other six and half billion people on this planet? ;)
Cindy
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 22, 2008, 12:08:00 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 22, 2008, 07:49:52 AM
I've never had any trouble ignoring the blinking light on the dashboard for up to a year. But you never answered the original question of why people are afraid of contradictions. I've found life much more comfortable when I live in acceptance of contradiction. It opens limitless possibilities. And the Dialectic is an accepted part of philosophy and religion.
I am contradiction. I am lightness and dark. I am saint and sinner. I am day and night. I am springtime and harvest. I am the ocean and the shore. I am male and female. I am senior citizen and child. I am the subject and object of all my actions. I am all opposites held in tension and creating each other. I am me.
You're being unnecessarily difficult.
Yes, accepting the existence of yin and yang is a good thing, but that nothing to do with the context of this thread or the post you have quoted to answer that question.
Why are people afraid of contradiction? It's not a fear. Contradicting yourself means you are a hypocrite. It means you are wrong, and people don't like to be wrong.
As for philosophical, yes, you have left and right, but you can only go left or right, not left and right. If you go left and right, then you're not going anywhere, you stay right in the same place, making no progression because you directions of travel are contradicting themselves.
And why is progression so damned important? Do you really think anything we do in this microcosm of a small green and blue planet is going to mean diddly squat to the universe in a million years? Everything we do is wrong anyway according to somebody, so what's the problem with acknowledging it? I've yet to meet a human being who wasn't a hypocrite in some area.
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 22, 2008, 03:52:21 PM
Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 22, 2008, 12:08:00 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on November 22, 2008, 07:49:52 AM
I've never had any trouble ignoring the blinking light on the dashboard for up to a year. But you never answered the original question of why people are afraid of contradictions. I've found life much more comfortable when I live in acceptance of contradiction. It opens limitless possibilities. And the Dialectic is an accepted part of philosophy and religion.
I am contradiction. I am lightness and dark. I am saint and sinner. I am day and night. I am springtime and harvest. I am the ocean and the shore. I am male and female. I am senior citizen and child. I am the subject and object of all my actions. I am all opposites held in tension and creating each other. I am me.
You're being unnecessarily difficult.
Yes, accepting the existence of yin and yang is a good thing, but that nothing to do with the context of this thread or the post you have quoted to answer that question.
Why are people afraid of contradiction? It's not a fear. Contradicting yourself means you are a hypocrite. It means you are wrong, and people don't like to be wrong.
As for philosophical, yes, you have left and right, but you can only go left or right, not left and right. If you go left and right, then you're not going anywhere, you stay right in the same place, making no progression because you directions of travel are contradicting themselves.
And why is progression so damned important? Do your really think anything we do in this microcosm of a small green and blue planet is going to mean diddly squat to the universe in a million years? Everything we do is wrong anyway according to somebody, so what's the problem with acknowledging it?
If nothing matters, then why are you posting on this board? Why do you eat when you are hungry? Why do you transition? Why do you learn? Clearly it will not matter in this quantum flicker of energy we call the universe, so why do you do it?
Doncha both think that at this point there's no further value in carrying this on? Please agree to disagree and move along.
Thanks,
Nichole
I agree. Lizbeth, if you really think this is necessary, then move your next response to PM please.
NOOOO it's such a fun read :'(
Dun rob us of great entertainment. Existentialism versus humanism, LOL.
Quote from: Nichole on November 22, 2008, 05:08:54 PM
Doncha both think that at this point there's no further value in carrying this on? Please agree to disagree and move along.
Thanks,
Nichole
I agree it's pointless, but I never disagreed with her. I just never got an answer to my question.
Don't even waste your time on people like this.
Speaking of pigs, like my old Irish ancestors would have said,
'What would you expect from a pig but a grunt?'
Bev
Deception?
OK, me try again, but then, who listens to me huh?
*Contradiction* is being lost and or confused and stuck between the darkness and the light and fabricating lies to convince others of that lie in order to hold a position of credibility among their peers.
Self confusion is convincing yourself that you're untruths are true and forever being lost in the land of delusion. Been there.
We all experience our own personal varying levels of heaven and hell as we go through life. It is a learning and growing cycle and by learning from our errors and skinned shins from stumbling in the twilight of our humble beginnings, we are refined to become the best us we can be in this limited existence in the reality of this time and space continuum *as we know it*.We learn from the school of life.
It is those who will not learn from their turbulent existence that will end up getting caught up in the loop of their own karma. From how science sees it it is said that for every action you get an equal and opposite reaction. What ever one puts out to universe will be an exact in full return, good not good, dark light, the duality of universe.
If we can manifest our own hell, why not our own heaven?
Apparently Gracie Faise's dialog with this gentleman who is obviously ignorant or lacking the education or information on the topic of transsexuality but still persisting on talking like he was an authority on the subject is another case of self deception.
Making yourself an authority on something you don't know anything about, I would say, is trying to convince someone of your fabrications. Lots of self proclaimed savants like that in the world, pompous a-holes.
Cindy
Quote from: Miss Bev on November 25, 2008, 11:23:22 AM
Don't even waste your time on people like this.
Speaking of pigs, like my old Irish ancestors would have said,
'What would you expect from a pig but a grunt?'
Bev
Quote from: Miss Bev on November 25, 2008, 11:43:56 AM
Her??
No....I was talking about the person she was trying to explain TS'ism to.
I often don't read an entire thread. I assumed people would know to whom I referenced my comment. Sorry for confusing folks.
Bev
Yes, let's not talk to uneducated people. Because they're all pigs. The majority of the population who isn't educated on transsexualism, they're all pigs. And since we shouldn't talk to pigs, we shouldn't educate them either. We'll just let them be pigs.
Totally agree. ::)
Not really. Takes one to know one, as the saying goes.
people think they are so smart when they arent the ones holding the wierdo stick....
My message to that guy who was writing back to you gracie would be to tell him.
"your 100% right, and 100% wrong."
Ah! I didn't think this thread would resurface, I have that conversion copied to my blog. And yes, without the name calling, I agree with Bev, there are those that will never understand the phenomena of transsexuality because they are just plain not interested in learning about it, they figure they have enough in their own little bag to carry.
Some will react like it was like some type of highly contagious disease and will cross over to the other side of the street to avoid you if they know you. Then there is those know it all's know nothings like in that conversation with Gracie FAISE. So yes there are oik oiks out there whose vocabularies will never exceed much further then oink oink.
And those who do understand don't want the rest of the world to know they understand.
Cindy