Yep I said it. I was thinking of it since I can`t afford to transition and I miss the old life I had. So it is quite possible I may detransition. What is wrong with me??? I can`t beleve i would consider it, but I am. After a top surgery ( how ever much that costs???) I could go back to Hawaii and surf & boat with my friends and live the Island life I love so much. I would get to live with my children for sure and stay married to my wife. There are some good things to come out of detransition but I would have to live forever knowing I gave up on being me. ( I`m not entirly sure I would ever be passable anyway) Going either way is very hard for me to do so I just might do it. Ever been there? I know for sure i don`t want to be known as trans the rest of my life. I also don`t want to be a man. So I just think life might be easier for me if I just go back to the way things where. A hiddin Island girl in a mans body.
Thanks, Angie
I'm so sorry for you, Angie. Well, maybe that's gonna sound wrong. I don't think I could have done that, but I respect the decision and many things you're considering in making it.
For a lot of TSes it does seem to be "transition or die" due to the internal pressures that come with our lives as we start out, especially when we're young. Thos of us who wait till we're older may have the same drives, but time, although it doesn't ever seem to erase GID does seem to show us ways we can live with it for at least a while.
I really wish you all the best and resepct how difficult this must be for you in everso many ways. Please do stay with us and keep us posted on how you are. Besides, if you change your mind at some point ... then you'll have the support you may require here. :icon_hug:
Nichole
I don't believe in cookie-cutter, Angie. I support you in whatever you feel is correct for you.
Remember Mark Penner, the LA Times portswriter? He became Christine Daniels. Later she went back to being Mark Penner. I think he showed a LOT more courage, detransitioning from such a public place.
You do what's best for you. And you're always welcome at Susans!
Karen
Wow Angie. Hugses. :(
I wrote this in response to yet another ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou thread on a different forum just a while ago, and while it is perhaps stating the obvious, hopefully it will help you feel a bit less alone.
QuoteI've been FT about 6 months now, and I'm about a year into transition, so that probably has a lot to do with why I'm still digesting alot of things. The specific issues I'm dealing with are exactly the ones where you do have to come out of stealth, if such is your desire - to a partner for example, and the fear that people in stealth have to live with of being exposed. Leaving everybody and everything behind also seems a heavy price to pay. The alternative of course is to be known, which I don't think anybody will argue is gonna be easy. So my observation was just that, as much more at peace as we find ourselves post transition, we pay a heavy price no matter what we do, and that transition, while solving our greatest problem perhaps, saddles us with a host of crappy new ones. The best thing we can do is to stop blaming one another for our circumstances and do what we can to change things, be it from a position of stealth or out in public. Society is what it is, and most of the blame lies there.
Whatever you decide to do Angie, may you find peace.
Mina.
You have my respect Angie..
I'm going through a similar set of questions with my therapist. ::)
The question I am trying to resolve; is if I can control my desire to start formal transition now, am I making a life decision or just delaying the inevitable. A realistic asssessment of the quality of life we can reasonably hope to achive, plays a part in these decisions. :-\
I really hope it works out for you, whatever you finally decide :icon_bunch:
:icon_hug:
Chrissty
Hi Angie
I hope you can find peace and clarity to ultimately make whatever decision is right for YOU NOW.
Anyway life is always full of surprises and opportunities.
Go n-éirí do bhótar leat.
May you find your right path to happiness.
Hope, Light, Love & Respect
Maebh
PS And remember: "It is a woman prerogative to change her mind!" ;)
I'm also sorry to hear this Angie dear.
I guess its stating the obvious that its a hard lonley road with no obvious happy ending. I can understand your desire to return to happier safer times.
Just look after yourself if you do, its so much harder for married TS's i can only admire the strength that needs to survive.
I hope you find your happiness whatever you decide.
Quote from: almost,angie on January 17, 2009, 12:26:32 PM
I could go back to Hawaii and surf & boat with my friends and live the Island life I love so much. I would get to live with my children for sure and stay married to my wife.
Thanks, Angie
Angie, your children are always a worthy consideration. you may feel, later on, after they have grown, that you are more free to examine these issues further.
i also have felt many times that i will never really pass, and, you know, end up walking around looking like a ->-bleeped-<-. (Eeeek!)
and it is hard when you find that the maturity that comes with transitioning is yet difficult to embrace; one still has to work at it constantly. uh, at least i do.
and is it all worth it? food and rent, not to mention family healthcare expenses trump HRT expenses. though, if you just cannot go on any other way, then yes, HRT *is* worth it.
*my opinions only. please do not take this advice in lieu of professional counseling.-ell
Angie,
Quote from: almost,angie on January 17, 2009, 12:26:32 PM
Yep I said it. I was thinking of it since I can`t afford to transition and I miss the old life I had. So it is quite possible I may detransition. What is wrong with me??? I can`t beleve i would consider it, but I am. After a top surgery ( how ever much that costs???) I could go back to Hawaii and surf & boat with my friends and live the Island life I love so much. I would get to live with my children for sure and stay married to my wife. There are some good things to come out of detransition but I would have to live forever knowing I gave up on being me. ( I`m not entirly sure I would ever be passable anyway) Going either way is very hard for me to do so I just might do it. Ever been there? I know for sure i don`t want to be known as trans the rest of my life. I also don`t want to be a man. So I just think life might be easier for me if I just go back to the way things where. A hiddin Island girl in a mans body.
Thanks, Angie
Do you really wish to incur that expense? And if you decide to transition later, what will that do if you go back to HRT? Honey, find a therapist and talk this over with them.
I have often thought if I didn't pass, would I transition. For me, at this point in MY life, I have to. I don't have family to worry about. My kids are all grown. And I am unofficially divorced. So my choice is easy. If I look like a "->-bleeped-<-", then so be it.
I wish the best for you no matter what you decide to do. You are in a tough place to be.
Janet
Thanks girls! I am only thinking of this as a path at the moment. I refilled all my perscriptions yesterday so i haven`t stopped yet. My therapist is not for it . She only thinks i will hold out for a couple years then I`ll be back. My wife just wants me to be happy along with my mother in law ( who we live with now). When i started transition it was because i wanted to die. I felt so alone inside. That is something to remember.
I have about 2 years before i can move back to Hawaii so i will take that time to test the waters and see if I can hold out on all that "T" If not screw it then I will have no choice but to say I`m full of it. LOL!
It is not and easy choice for me but I just might do it. Thanks for the support and I will not leave susans no matter what I choose.
Angie,
Angie, I know all too well your dilemma, having transitioned and re-transitioned. It's a difficult choice either way you go, you have my support!
Z
Angie,
I am living my dreams everyday and know how you feel. You see I have BA but can still pass as male or female and most of the time just enjoy being me! I think eventually I will be full time but for now I just love getting up in the morning and being myself. I think that it is possible to go from androgenous to female without making a big deal out of it.
Good luck,
Renee
I've often thought about if I should go back. Sometimes I was dead convinced it was the right thing to do and the only thing holding me back was the surgery that had to be undone.
It wasn't until I realized the only reason I wanted to de-transition was because of the pressure to do so, prejudice, discrimination, family abandonment, job loss, etc. But I never wanted to go back because of how I felt inside. All the pressure was coming from a prejudiced and uneducated society. Take all that away and I've never been happier in my life.
Quote from: almost,angie on January 17, 2009, 12:26:32 PM
After a top surgery ( how ever much that costs???) I could go back to Hawaii and surf & boat with my friends and live the Island life I love so much. I would get to live with my children for sure and stay married to my wife. There are some good things to come out of detransition but I would have to live forever knowing I gave up on being me. ( I`m not entirly sure I would ever be passable anyway)
Angie, I do have to say a few things. One is, that I've know a few people who have detransitioned, and in every case they deeply regretted it and later retransitioned. Another is that be aware that having top surgery would destroy your breasts and make it impossible to regrow them. You would have no other option then but augmentation. If the decision to transition is hard, detransitioning is harder. And remember that you can't go back to how things were. Everyone will remember what you did the first time around and won't look at you the same way ever again.
As for whether you can ever pass, I transitioned assuming I never would. Passing is not as important to me as being who I am. My partner is at the stage of feeling she will never pass and that being seen with me causes me to not pass either. I do not care if I don't pass when I'm with her. My life isn't about passing. It's about being me and being with the woman I love. Besides that, she's beautiful just the way she is now.
wow, maybe its in the air lately....Ive been thinking of quitting the whole thing myself...
I didnt think I would question it at all this time around...
Im actually considering doing this:
Wear my girl clothes, dont mess with any dehairing...have stubble if I want to be lazy and wear some eyeliner...not even try to do any passing...just screw it and be comfortable.
Most people would be like....that dudes crazzzy
Quote from: Rita Irene on January 18, 2009, 05:43:33 PM
wow, maybe its in the air lately....Ive been thinking of quitting the whole thing myself...
I didnt think I would question it at all this time around...
Im actually considering doing this:
Wear my girl clothes, dont mess with any dehairing...have stubble if I want to be lazy and wear some eyeliner...not even try to do any passing...just screw it and be comfortable.
Most people would be like....that dudes crazzzy
Except you don't look at all like a dude ;D
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on January 18, 2009, 05:48:02 PM
Quote from: Rita Irene on January 18, 2009, 05:43:33 PM
wow, maybe its in the air lately....Ive been thinking of quitting the whole thing myself...
I didnt think I would question it at all this time around...
Im actually considering doing this:
Wear my girl clothes, dont mess with any dehairing...have stubble if I want to be lazy and wear some eyeliner...not even try to do any passing...just screw it and be comfortable.
Most people would be like....that dudes crazzzy
Except you don't look at all like a dude ;D
Z
Thats nice of you to say...I guess when I go a couple days without shaving anything and zero makeup...all I see is MAN...
Thanks for the kind words, perhaps it will inspire me... :'(
Quote from: Rita Irene on January 18, 2009, 08:42:37 PM
Thats nice of you to say...I guess when I go a couple days without shaving anything and zero makeup...all I see is MAN...
It's hard for us to look in the mirror and see who we really are, vs who we were supposed to be for others.
Z
Angie,
There must be something in the water because I am thinking the same. Having left wife and family to transition. The pull to be with them is great and I miss them O so much. Would things be the same? I don't think so but just to be with them again.
I have had no probs passing and I have a full time job. I am stealth and no one knows. I have an active life too with various groups outside of work and yet with all that I do think seriously about detransition.
Like some have said, how long would that last? would I feel the desire again even if I tried to suppress it as I had before for so long? I know someone else who did detransition only to transition again four years later.
Hears my thought. The pain of transition causes us to look back through rose coloured glasses to our past, forgetting the pain in the past that caused us to transition in the first place. I hope I'm making sense here.
Hugs
Stardust
Angie:
Read Second Serve: The Renée Richards Story (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0812828976)
For me, the story of her doubts and having a mastectomy before finally transitioning gives me the creeps.
What i find disturbing, or 'gives me the creeps' as renate so aptly put it, is the trans community's view of detransition... HELLO? if they want to be the sex they were born, go for it! its a feth lot easier... and if they are men, or women, then why not be what they are? isnt that the point of transition?
I find this more amungst m2fs, its almost like for some, being a woman superseeds gender... its as if, 'who wouldnt want to be female?' that by detransitioning, some poor guy gets laid into for making the right call.... as if they let down the ->-bleeped-<- side by being a boring old smelly boy....
Get a grip guys. If the OP wants to go back, fine, if they truely can, go for it... if you cant, id weigh up that decision hard before doing something permanent as renate showed...
People are human. People go back and forward on decisions till they are happy with it... it can happen... and again, people can make mistakes... all that matters at the end of the day is they are happy. And the attitudes within the community on the subject are laughable when looked at from outside... get a grip guys... this is life... not picking sides on a football team... the decision you make matters... its not popularity or vanity.
I'm an all or nothing girl myself...
Your going to detransition to go back to the way things were..
How would you go back to that jumping off point?
Wouldn't you still have to learn how to cope with your new way of life and live?
Would it be easier or Utopia?
Good luck with whatever you do.. I wish you Peace.
/me headdesks
I hate to go against popular opinion, Angie, but if you think going back is an option you would handle without hurting yourself, and would ultimately make you happy, then Aloha. Living this life is not easy for most...
I wish you all the best!
Bev
Angie, If detransitioning is what you need to do, you should do it. It doesn't solve anything though. And it's not necessarily the end of the path. I know another who detransitioned and then re-transitioned 2 years after that.
Karen
Quote from: Starbuck on January 19, 2009, 07:03:54 PM
People go back and forward on decisions till they are happy with it... it can happen... and again, people can make mistakes... all that matters at the end of the day is they are happy. And the attitudes within the community on the subject are laughable when looked at from outside... get a grip guys... this is life... not picking sides on a football team... the decision you make matters... its not popularity or vanity.
Hmmmm... "People go back and forward on decisions till they are happy with it." Well, I suppose that's one way to look at it. And I suppose you could climb back and forth over Mt. Everest until you can pick the side you want to be on. But there are costs to changing your mind, and you can only afford to do it so many times. The price goes up and your resources go down. Hey, it's not like picking sides in a football game, before you pick a side, decide if you can live with your choice, 'cause going back ain't easy.
Hey you don't know me or I you; but still................Life can be as easy or difficult as we make it. If de-transition is the path you feel is best suited toward making a more enjoyable life, then follow your heart.
Personally I feel that we as a group have fought so many battles winning some, losing others that I wouldn't want to lose the small advances made. Just my opinion.
Quote from: Lisbeth on January 19, 2009, 11:26:36 PM
Quote from: Starbuck on January 19, 2009, 07:03:54 PM
People go back and forward on decisions till they are happy with it... it can happen... and again, people can make mistakes... all that matters at the end of the day is they are happy. And the attitudes within the community on the subject are laughable when looked at from outside... get a grip guys... this is life... not picking sides on a football team... the decision you make matters... its not popularity or vanity.
Hmmmm... "People go back and forward on decisions till they are happy with it." Well, I suppose that's one way to look at it. And I suppose you could climb back and forth over Mt. Everest until you can pick the side you want to be on. But there are costs to changing your mind, and you can only afford to do it so many times. The price goes up and your resources go down. Hey, it's not like picking sides in a football game, before you pick a side, decide if you can live with your choice, 'cause going back ain't easy.
so what point were you making by quoting me and repeating my post in different words?
I do so agree with Starbuck;
QuoteWhat i find disturbing, or 'gives me the creeps' as renate so aptly put it, is the trans community's view of detransition... HELLO? if they want to be the sex they were born, go for it! its a feth lot easier... and if they are men, or women, then why not be what they are? isnt that the point of transition?
To me, speaking for myself, since only the short few years leading up to transitioning and becoming complete were my happiest years of my life outside of my childhood, and thirty years of living in hell in between I left behind getting here. There never was an option for me. There was only one direction to go, transition. Now that I have completed the crossing over to womanhood, if I were told for some reason I had to detransition or I would go back to hell, or what ever, if I didn't, I would blow my brains out and get to hell and get it over with quicker. That is just how passionate I am being me, I worked to damned hard to be her, now there is only her.
Cindy
Transitioning is such an important, time consuming, expensive process. We decide to transition because we are miserable with our physical selves. I'm back on my journey again. My life hasn't been all bad. I remember very enjoyable times with friends as a male. But that isn't the point. Inside I was and still am unhappy. Sure I had enjoyable moments, but what I recall very vividly is the crying, thoughts of suicide, misery. Much of that was kept bottled-up inside, just getting worse. I haven't begun HRT yet, I still have a bit to go. When I reach that point in my life, I damn well will not turn around and travel back the way I came. That's me. I've tried so many times to force myself to live a man's life. All I've proven is that I can, but it's not who and what I am. You have to decide who and what you are. If you truly believe you should retransition, then you've decided that you are just a confused, misdirected female. I remember happy days from years ago, but even then, underneath it all, I knew I was female, and eventually my inner self could no longer remain contained. I know I'm rambling with my thoughts on this, but my point is, be absolutely sure of who and what you are before making such a terribly important decision. This isn't a game.
Quote from: Starbuck on January 20, 2009, 12:13:17 AM
so what point were you making by quoting me and repeating my post in different words?
Is that what I was doing? I was trying to make sense out of what you said. You seemed to be disagreeing with yourself.
no, i said exactly what you said... you may have misread... i said life was not like picking sides in a football game, the choice has reprocusions and is not a popularity contest.
ok, one said,
"What i find disturbing, or 'gives me the creeps' as renate so aptly put it, is the trans community's view of detransition..." Interpretation: someone has a viewpoint that i find disturbing. i will attack them. i.e.: don't be gentle with or supportive of people's ideas toward detransitioning.
the other said,
"there are costs to changing your mind" Interpretation: Don't detransition without first considering the enormous personal and emotional risks."
both sides could be right, except, of course, that we are not, ourselves, professional therapists.
as a support site, i suppose it could be said we should only support those who want to transition, not those who want to detransition.
however, Angie is my friend, and i, also, am not a professional therapist. am i supposed to withhold support from her, now that she has broached a subject which supposedly gives some people "the creeps"?
-ell
Ok wow... your interpretation is completely bloody wrong....
I AM ALL IN FAVOUR OF DETRANSITION... *facepalms* i was saying the community has a tendanncy to be all 'ew detransition' and view anyone who does so in bad light.... i dont like the suggestion that i would attack someone for thier belief, thats against the rules here hon. Plus please try and read a post, not between its lines when there isnt any....
Quote from: Starbuck on January 20, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
Ok wow... your interpretation is completely bloody wrong....
I AM ALL IN FAVOUR OF DETRANSITION... *facepalms* i was saying the community has a tendanncy to be all 'ew detransition' and view anyone who does so in bad light.... i dont like the suggestion that i would attack someone for thier belief, thats against the rules here hon. Plus please try and read a post, not between its lines when there isnt any....
Ah. Then I was not wrong. We said completely the opposite thing. I have yet to know anyone for whom detransition was the right answer.
You assume then that anyone who begins transition is actually transgender... not being influenced by other factors...
Quote from: almost,angie on January 17, 2009, 12:26:32 PM
Yep I said it. I was thinking of it since I can`t afford to transition and I miss the old life I had. So it is quite possible I may detransition. What is wrong with me??? I can`t beleve i would consider it, but I am. After a top surgery ( how ever much that costs???) I could go back to Hawaii and surf & boat with my friends and live the Island life I love so much. I would get to live with my children for sure and stay married to my wife. There are some good things to come out of detransition but I would have to live forever knowing I gave up on being me. ( I`m not entirly sure I would ever be passable anyway) Going either way is very hard for me to do so I just might do it. Ever been there? I know for sure i don`t want to be known as trans the rest of my life. I also don`t want to be a man. So I just think life might be easier for me if I just go back to the way things where. A hiddin Island girl in a mans body.
Thanks, Angie
*huggs* Angie. The word "detransition" sends chills through me, but I've been an a-train freightliner dedicated to one purpose for a couple years, looking for the light at the end of the tunnel. But, occasionally, I stop, breathe, and look around and think
what am I doing, feeling the self-doubt, i'm nuts, this is so hard, then the focus reappears. Friends are there, support is there, just look for those you love, that wish everything for you, that have been there from the start for you. Remember what makes you happy, the vision of the light, and if you can't see it, do what you need to do to make yourself happy. Simple words from a goofy analogy, but only you can see your own path....
*huggs*,
Melan
Quote from: Starbuck on January 20, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
Ok wow... your interpretation is completely bloody wrong....
I AM ALL IN FAVOUR OF DETRANSITION... *facepalms* i was saying the community has a tendanncy to be all 'ew detransition' and view anyone who does so in bad light.... i dont like the suggestion that i would attack someone for thier belief, thats against the rules here hon. Plus please try and read a post, not between its lines when there isnt any....
well, you were the one that said you were finding people's attitudes "disturbing" and that they ought to "get a grip..." uh, which is not an attack, i suppose (since it's just implying insanity).
I'd say anyone who begins transition is indeed transgender, unless they have some very severe mental disorder that is making them do it for some complicated reason (like schizophrenia). But that doesn't make them transsexual. So I sort of agree. But more important, I don't think that "transsexual" is a completely binary category -- you can have a milder or more severe case, so to speak, and social circumstances confuse everything even more -- basically, because I don't really think that anything in nature is a binary category.
As a transgender support group, I thing it doesn't make the slightest sense not to support transgender people who are trying to deal with their gender role, whether that involves transitioning, detransitioning, or never transitioning in the first place.
I thought you made perfect sense, Starbuck. Though we have differing views, they lead us to the same conclusion in this case.
The reason I think a lot of people are disappointed by people who don't transition is that they find security in their identity through shared experience, so detransition can feel like a betrayal. I suspect that you don't feel that sense of betrayal (however misdirected) because you are more confident in your identity. For me it's different. I don't feel it because in detransition, I just see someone dealing with a troubled gender role in the best way they can, so I still feel connected. Of course, to the extent that that's all true, it's a simplicication, I know.
Anyway, my best wished for you, Angie, whatever you decide.
~Alyssa
Quote from: Starbuck on January 20, 2009, 07:51:13 PM
You assume then that anyone who begins transition is actually transgender... not being influenced by other factors...
I make no assumption whatsoever. I said, "I have yet to know anyone for whom detransition was the right answer." That is not to say that
some might not successfully destransition, but everyone I know who tried has failed and retransitioned. Given the one-sided nature of that statistic, I would be very cautious of suggesting detransitioning to anyone.
Now I don't pretend to know everything about transsexualism and actually know next to nothing about ->-bleeped-<-, nor am I a gender therapist. But from what I have learned and and lived full time for 9 years and I do understand some about transsexualism one may be able to repress it for many years, some not.
Some have gone part way, didn't have what it took and retreated, then began the long journey again, maybe several times before they actually made it across the line. Support is the biggest part of anyone's needs, equally whether going ahead or retreating in their transition.
It is disappointing, saddening, and discouraging to see someone fall back, especially if it was someone one you had befriended. In cases like that I have found that most times all one can really do for that individual is to pray for them.
But if one is truly transsexual the detransitioning will not be for long and it could be costly, not just financially but also emotionally and spiritually.
And if you can transition and resume your old life and be happy with it, then may God bless and do yourself a favor: never return to the doors of the rooms of transsexuality, GID, and transitioning again, for transsexuality, HRT, and GID will eventually surely kill you just as readily as a gun or a knife.
Imagine your bring brainwashed from female to male, back and forth, because that is what the HRT does to your mind. How long do you think your sanity can take that stretching back and forth before it snaps?
Cindy
Sorry had a couple of typo's and a left out.
Quote from: ell on January 20, 2009, 08:19:08 PM
Quote from: Starbuck on January 20, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
Ok wow... your interpretation is completely bloody wrong....
I AM ALL IN FAVOUR OF DETRANSITION... *facepalms* i was saying the community has a tendanncy to be all 'ew detransition' and view anyone who does so in bad light.... i dont like the suggestion that i would attack someone for thier belief, thats against the rules here hon. Plus please try and read a post, not between its lines when there isnt any....
well, you were the one that said you were finding people's attitudes "disturbing" and that they ought to "get a grip..." uh, which is not an attack, i suppose (since it's just implying insanity).
I would apreciate it if we left the word 'attack' out... ive already said that wasnt my intention. So stop suggesting it was.
i find the predomenance of an attitude disturbing, when its based on incorrect values... A lot of transwomen see being women as some awesome fun thing... why would someone want to go back to being a smelly guy? I'm afraid people thinking transition is beter than male for all cases (it does happen, and some examples in this thread ilustrate my point nicely... yes, disturbing attitudes is bout right...
and get a grip suggests someone take a look at what they are writing, stop reading into things hon, and if you do, be damn sure to pick someone who you can pull the attittude routine on and have it work....
Quote from: Starbuck on January 20, 2009, 10:17:15 PM
Quote from: ell on January 20, 2009, 08:19:08 PM
Quote from: Starbuck on January 20, 2009, 07:14:26 PM
Ok wow... your interpretation is completely bloody wrong....
I AM ALL IN FAVOUR OF DETRANSITION... *facepalms* i was saying the community has a tendanncy to be all 'ew detransition' and view anyone who does so in bad light.... i dont like the suggestion that i would attack someone for thier belief, thats against the rules here hon. Plus please try and read a post, not between its lines when there isnt any....
well, you were the one that said you were finding people's attitudes "disturbing" and that they ought to "get a grip..." uh, which is not an attack, i suppose (since it's just implying insanity).
I would apreciate it if we left the word 'attack' out... ive already said that wasnt my intention. So stop suggesting it was.
i find the predomenance of an attitude disturbing, when its based on incorrect values... A lot of transwomen see being women as some awesome fun thing... why would someone want to go back to being a smelly guy? I'm afraid people thinking transition is beter than male for all cases (it does happen, and some examples in this thread ilustrate my point nicely... yes, disturbing attitudes is bout right...
and get a grip suggests someone take a look at what they are writing, stop reading into things hon, and if you do, be damn sure to pick someone who you can pull the attittude routine on and have it work....
"incorrect values"? now you are the arbiter of what constitutes a correct or an incorrect value? thanks, i've always wondered who that person was...
-ell
Yeah, and i'm also a part time social standard assesser...
jesus christ...
I see them coming this way with the lock ::)
If people stopped picking fights, there wouldnt be any need... *sigh* either way. Back on topic.
Quote from: Starbuck on January 21, 2009, 12:57:15 PM
If people stopped picking fights
Heheh. i'll let it go this time. *pats you*
Quote from: almost,angie on January 17, 2009, 12:26:32 PM
Yep I said it. I was thinking of it since I can`t afford to transition and I miss the old life I had. So it is quite possible I may detransition. What is wrong with me??? I can`t beleve i would consider it, but I am. After a top surgery ( how ever much that costs???) I could go back to Hawaii and surf & boat with my friends and live the Island life I love so much. I would get to live with my children for sure and stay married to my wife. There are some good things to come out of detransition but I would have to live forever knowing I gave up on being me. ( I`m not entirly sure I would ever be passable anyway) Going either way is very hard for me to do so I just might do it. Ever been there? I know for sure i don`t want to be known as trans the rest of my life. I also don`t want to be a man. So I just think life might be easier for me if I just go back to the way things where. A hiddin Island girl in a mans body.
Thanks, Angie
As many have said before me, transition is a treatment, not a cure. There is still a significant amount of dissatisfaction remaining on the other side of transition. Maybe you are in a position now to see that whatever increase in satisfaction you have obtained or will obtain from transitioning does not or will not outweigh the pain of the losses incurred by travelling that path. Another old saw is that the goal of tranistion is to achieve a bearable level of discomfort. If you can return to that pretransition state and, with the benefit of having explored your gender identity at length, be able to bear that level of discomfort, then you will have successfully achieved a worthy goal.
I disagree Glenda.... Transition IS a cure, if the person is dysphoric enough to need to... And i dont know about you, but for some of us, transition has given us no disattisfaction.... if transition is a matter of least discomfort, you're doing it wrong... Its something you have to do to live a functional life... if you can do it without it, you clearly shouldnt...
Quote from: almost,angie on January 17, 2009, 12:26:32 PM
Yep I said it. I was thinking of it since I can`t afford to transition and I miss the old life I had. So it is quite possible I may detransition. What is wrong with me??? I can`t beleve i would consider it, but I am. After a top surgery ( how ever much that costs???) I could go back to Hawaii and surf & boat with my friends and live the Island life I love so much. I would get to live with my children for sure and stay married to my wife. There are some good things to come out of detransition but I would have to live forever knowing I gave up on being me. ( I`m not entirly sure I would ever be passable anyway) Going either way is very hard for me to do so I just might do it. Ever been there? I know for sure i don`t want to be known as trans the rest of my life. I also don`t want to be a man. So I just think life might be easier for me if I just go back to the way things where. A hiddin Island girl in a mans body.
Thanks, Angie
It seems to me that there are two types of people in this world, Angie. There are those who internalise their lives and those who externalise their lives.
What I mean by that is that some people gain a greater sense of self and their place in the world by the connections they form, the contributions they make, and the relationships they share... whilst others rely on their inner voice and their internal mental blueprint superimposing itself.
Neither, I think, is better or worse than the other. Both are just different ways of achieving the same thing, namely peace and a sense of belonging.
You, I think, are one of the externalists. And I get the sense from your post that your life would be more bearable for you if you could find your place in the world through your interactions with the people you care about and the things you enjoy doing.
There is nothing wrong with you. We all travel life's road in different ways and, like all travellers, this allows for retracing your steps to find the path that feels best for you in reaching your destination. The only thing that matters is that you keep moving, keep putting one foot in front of the other, whichever direction you choose to travel.
I'm not going to state the relative merits or not of transition, whichever one that may be, because on an individual level it's pretty much a futile argument. However, something to consider is: You say you would give up on being you. Physically that may be true, insomuch as you won't look the way you feel you should look... but as you allude to in your post, the things you would be going back to, the things you miss, the very reasons you feel you want to do this... how much do they also define you?
You're more than a body, you're a person. And part of being a person is living your life, doing things that make you happy. I suppose that the ultimate goal of transitioning is to be who you believe yourself to be... however, I believe that even that is only a means to an end, and that end is to
live, to do things that give you a sense of fulfilment. If you feel that this can be achieved by other means than physically correcting your gender then do whatever you feel you need to do.
just want to say that was awesome Leiandra....
Oh my god, Leiandra, that was awesome.
Yep, our Leiandra is a smart kid, and a caring heart to boot. ;)
Cindy
Quote from: Starbuck on January 22, 2009, 12:25:16 AM
I disagree Glenda.... Transition IS a cure, if the person is dysphoric enough to need to... And i dont know about you, but for some of us, transition has given us no disattisfaction.... if transition is a matter of least discomfort, you're doing it wrong... Its something you have to do to live a functional life... if you can do it without it, you clearly shouldnt...
If your dysphoria is strong enough, the capabilities of modern science are not sufficient to provide everything you want or need to truly complete transition. There's always something left, whether it's shoulder to hip ratio, lack of a womb, the painful reminder of dilation, a lower voice than you'd like, or just lingering memories and after affects of socialization in the wrong gender. Some of this might make more sense to you down the road.
I believe that the true TS's instinctual and rational or id, is characterized as being the right hemisphere of the brain which is theorized to be more female oriented. Just as it is theorized that the early development of the brain from time of gestation to embryo to fetus the brain has been doused in female hormone thus stimulating the brain to develop into the female pattern of thought or id.
After the child is born it is raised and conditioned to think and act like the gender that is visually evident to the eye, very rarely is there attention paid to the attributes and behavior they might indicate that is evidently contrary to the outward visual appearance of the sex the child presents. Must be taught to behave in the right gender.
Thus for how many years one is conditioned, sometimes with force, to believe, think, and feel to be the gender or sex they are not? Once the person has reached the sufficiently mature age to make their own decision to pursue transitioning to their preferred sex or gender, it will take at least that many years to reprogram ones mind, id or rational to feel comfortable in the opposite sex or gender of choice. Is it choice? I believe that subconsciously we are driven instinctively to follow a path where we need to evolve into being our true selves, who we truly are within.
Instinct I believe is for the most part genetic. Even if your mom had some kind of mental defect because of some defective or abusive upbringing or life history doesn't mean that the genetic code was damaged in the entire line of ancestry. Thus your sisters will grow up unaffected by your moms defective rearing.
I had a foster daughter who was raised by a an abusive drunk, she swore she would never touch the stuff and she is living well, the last time I have heard she had a good job and has a loving husband and three beautiful children.
Now this is only my opinion and it is open for debate. I don't really think there is a pat answer to the phenomena of transsexuality except for what each and every individual one of us experiences, and those experiences can be as varied as the winds of change itself.
Cindy
Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 22, 2009, 12:53:58 PM
Quote from: Starbuck on January 22, 2009, 12:25:16 AM
I disagree Glenda.... Transition IS a cure, if the person is dysphoric enough to need to... And i dont know about you, but for some of us, transition has given us no disattisfaction.... if transition is a matter of least discomfort, you're doing it wrong... Its something you have to do to live a functional life... if you can do it without it, you clearly shouldnt...
If your dysphoria is strong enough, the capabilities of modern science are not sufficient to provide everything you want or need to truly complete transition. There's always something left, whether it's shoulder to hip ratio, lack of a womb, the painful reminder of dilation, a lower voice than you'd like, or just lingering memories and after affects of socialization in the wrong gender. Some of this might make more sense to you down the road.
I think you two are arguing semantics. I don't think that's bad -- the semantics inform how you look at things -- but I'd suggest, Glenda, that dissastifaction of some sort, not too different from what you describe, is a universal experience. I don't know a soul who's not been battered. I don't have a friend that feels at ease. In medicine, a cure isn't always a pretty or desireable result, but only the least undesirable. Often it just means going from an unbearable to a tolerable condition. If a woman with breast cancer and has a mastectomy and no cancer returns, you call it a cure. Or maybe you don't -- like I said, semantics.
~Alyssa
Disattisfaction is hugely common.... A lot of transwomen go through transition putting the world on hold, expecting a land of frills and rainbows when they finish... like transition will create a life for you.
Life cannot stop. You have to go for things as soon as you can and build your own life, if you do, the final surgery is simply an enabling... a final freedom... Life is what you make it... not what some thai surgeon makes it
Quote from: Starbuck on January 22, 2009, 08:48:15 PM
Disattisfaction is hugely common.... A lot of transwomen go through transition putting the world on hold, expecting a land of frills and rainbows when they finish... like transition will create a life for you.
Life cannot stop. You have to go for things as soon as you can and build your own life, if you do, the final surgery is simply an enabling... a final freedom... Life is what you make it... not what some thai surgeon makes it
amen!
Quote from: Alyssa M. on January 22, 2009, 08:15:11 PM
Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 22, 2009, 12:53:58 PM
Quote from: Starbuck on January 22, 2009, 12:25:16 AM
I disagree Glenda.... Transition IS a cure, if the person is dysphoric enough to need to... And i dont know about you, but for some of us, transition has given us no disattisfaction.... if transition is a matter of least discomfort, you're doing it wrong... Its something you have to do to live a functional life... if you can do it without it, you clearly shouldnt...
If your dysphoria is strong enough, the capabilities of modern science are not sufficient to provide everything you want or need to truly complete transition. There's always something left, whether it's shoulder to hip ratio, lack of a womb, the painful reminder of dilation, a lower voice than you'd like, or just lingering memories and after affects of socialization in the wrong gender. Some of this might make more sense to you down the road.
I think you two are arguing semantics. I don't think that's bad -- the semantics inform how you look at things -- but I'd suggest, Glenda, that dissastifaction of some sort, not too different from what you describe, is a universal experience. I don't know a soul who's not been battered. I don't have a friend that feels at ease. In medicine, a cure isn't always a pretty or desireable result, but only the least undesirable. Often it just means going from an unbearable to a tolerable condition. If a woman with breast cancer and has a mastectomy and no cancer returns, you call it a cure. Or maybe you don't -- like I said, semantics.
~Alyssa
Agreed
Post Merge: January 23, 2009, 07:15:30 AM
Quote from: Starbuck on January 22, 2009, 08:48:15 PM
Disattisfaction is hugely common.... A lot of transwomen go through transition putting the world on hold, expecting a land of frills and rainbows when they finish... like transition will create a life for you.
Life cannot stop. You have to go for things as soon as you can and build your own life, if you do, the final surgery is simply an enabling... a final freedom... Life is what you make it... not what some thai surgeon makes it
Agreed