Now war might be a bit of an inflammatory topic in some ways. Some people believe it is ok, some don't. Best to avoid arguing against each other. We all have our own reasons. Feel free to share, but respect others opinions.
I don't like war, part of me thinks being in one just makes you part of a problem.
But I'm not a complete pacifist either. I would fight in defence from a direct attack, or fight on behalf of someone that was being unjustly attacked. Despite this I don't think I could bring myself to join an army. I would hate to be the one having to kill the other guy who more than likely is just happens to be on the other side. Armies are too impersonal. I could understand facing somebody that really hates me and wants me dead, maybe even someone that is willing to kill because they are ordered to do it which seems rather inhuman to me. But in war you can't tell, nobody wears their motive and all you know is someone is trying to kill you and you are trying to kill them back.
I get the feeling androgynes are not that well suited to the regimented life of an army, navy or airforce. I imagine that we would likely be found in supporting roles, kitchen, entertainment, supplies, camp whore, or the protesters, the defaulters that sort of thing. But I don't really know.
Have any of you served in any armed conflict?
Any thoughts?
I've never served in the armed forces, and when I turned 18 and registered as a Conscientious Objector. However, I'm not a pacifist.
Not all persons can be reasoned with, and I accept this. However, warfare doesn't seem to be the best way to strike at those who won't be reasoned with. I, too, would fight in defense, but that's about as far as I could go.
I am not a warlike sort, except when i play civilisation and have built all the irrigation and roads I want.
Hmmm, this reminds me that some of my favorite games include Doom, Quake (I and II), and Halo. Very much war games.
Dreaming of hawks, elk and thunder brought good fortune to the Omaha. Visions of snakes portended trouble. But among the Omaha and other tribes, a man who dreamed of the moon courted true disaster, for if he awoke at the wrong moment, he would be forever doomed to give up his manhood and take up the ways of a woman. Some young men committed suicide after experiencing such dreams. Others accepted their fate and lived the rest of their lives as mixuga, which means "instructed by the moon." A mixuga man was obligated to dress like a woman, speak like a woman, and perform the female duties of cultivating the soil, braiding buffalo hair, and embroidering moccasins and clothing. Instead of the warrior's shaved head and decorative roach, the mixuga wore his hair long and parted down the middle.
A few mixuga men crossed back and forth between female and male roles. In 1898 an Osage named Black Dog told a white visitor about a young man who had always insisted that he had received a warrior's vision. After leading a war party on a successful raid, the young man was dancing in honor of his victory when an owl hooted and announced to the Indians that their leader was a mixuga. "The people listened in amazement," Black Dog related, "and the leader protested: 'I have done that which a mixuga could never do!' However, on reaching his home, the young leader dressed as a woman and spoke as a woman. He married and had children. He was a successful warrior, but when about to go to war, he discarded his woman's clothing and dressed himself as a man."
Excerpt from: "The American Indians: Cycles of Life" 1994
I like games with lots of death and destruction. But then most computer games revolve around death and destruction.
My dnd characters are always rather ruthless type characters too, my most recent killed a gang of chilldren that were trying to steal from her. Pretty distasteful and some of the other players reacted quite strongly to it. I enjoyed it emensly. I don't know what that says about me. I think it just reflects my frustration in the real world.
When I turned 18 I registered for selective service. We happened to have a period of peace while I was in the right age range to join the military. Now i'm too old.
I do believe that there are times to go to war. Hitler's genocide comes to mind, as does japan's aggression in WW2. And in later times, al queida and 9-11. There are truly bad/disturbed people in the world who only understand force and nothing else (kim jong II, pol pot, saddam hussein, mussolini, etc). You can't sit down and reason with people like that, in spite of what obama thinks. I do agree that war should only be pulled out as a last resort.
I also believe that if you choose to join into a war you go all out for winning it. Wars where the goals are ill defined and fuzzy just don't work (vietnam).
I think the problem with thinking that some people only understand force is that they are thinking the exact same thing.
If it comes down to the actions of a leader, why not just assassinate them and all or any associated leaders? If you can't find the leaders kill the middle men. I don't think enough effort is put into assasination. Bugger the morality, it has to be better than war.
I personally make no judgments regarding warfare. Sadly, it's one of those things our species just can't seem to grow past. My personal ethics don't glorify warfare, but they don't forbid it either. Sometimes war is necessary and it is always tragic.
I will fight if necessary to protect my loved ones, myself or my country, but I hope that never becomes necessary.
I get the feeling that as long as most of us are prepared to fight to defend ourselves there will always be war :(
I get the feeling that you're probably right. :(
I hate HATE **HATE** war and conflict.
When I think about it and the history and the Reasons why there has been wars, my stomach feels like a knot and I want to cry.
The human race is extremly short-sighted.
I would rather give up everything than kill. I would rather die than kill, too.
Why can't we just get along ?
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on March 25, 2009, 07:16:48 PM
I hate HATE **HATE** war and conflict.
When I think about it and the history and the Reasons why there has been wars, my stomach feels like a knot and I want to cry.
The human race is extremly short-sighted.
I would rather give up everything than kill. I would rather die than kill, too.
Why can't we just get along ?
Well said :)
I can understand war in some situations, but in today's world, generally, I think it can be avoided. I hate war and conflict, but I am the type that would fight to survive. I'd never join the armed forces though. Too structured, too strict, and I don't like being told what to do.
I guess you could say I loathe violence, but I'll use it if I have to to protect myself or someone else. It really depends on the situation. On a side note, I don't like war/fighting games (Risk can bite my ass :icon_burn:)...although if you were to play certain games with me, I can be just as sick as anyone. :D
I don't understand how any human can take the life of another human.
Z
The trouble with violence is that in some situations its the most effective course of action. People use it because it works.
That is only true when dealing with violent people or if you are violent yourself, even then it could be debatable. If nobody was violent there would be no need for it at all.
Quote from: Zythyra on March 25, 2009, 09:50:20 PM
I don't understand how any human can take the life of another human.
I think it is because deep inside every human being, beyond a certain breaking point, lives something ugly that will resort to such actions, even if it is just to make someone else stop committing horrors and atrocities. Any of us who have never had occasion to be introduced to that ugly thing should probably count ourselves as fortunate.
Quote from: KYLYKaHYT on March 26, 2009, 07:04:39 AM
I think it is because deep inside every human being, beyond a certain breaking point, lives something ugly that will resort to such actions, even if it is just to make someone else stop committing horrors and atrocities. Any of us who have never had occasion to be introduced to that ugly thing should probably count ourselves as fortunate.
Likely it is part of our makeup that helped us survive as a species.
I believe violence is an admission of failure and creates more problems than it solves. That would be true of relations with spouse or partner, children, at work, and especially between nations. World War II was fought because we did too little, too late to oppose Hitler. The US was ambivalent about his proposals to rid Germany of its Jewry and unwilling to accept more refugees. Even when at war, we did not destroy the railroads leading to the concentration camps. Our government suppressed the mounting evidence of genocide. And US Jews, by and large, kept quiet for fear of rocking our own boat.
For the record, my aunt and grandmother were lifelong antiwar activists. My family did host WWII and later refugees. I would be happy to suggest books on non-violent conflict resolution to any who might be interested.
Looking forward to next fall's college football,
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on March 26, 2009, 05:00:04 PM
Looking forward to next fall's college football,
ritualised violence...
Quote from: Nicky on March 26, 2009, 05:01:34 PM
ritualised violence...
We all have our vices. I once shattered the dorm room tile floor, when I slammed down a chair during my school's rivalry game. I've had to moderate my expression of passion in later years, because I was scaring my children.
Quietly, calmly,
S
War is a terrible thing, it's enough to look at the death toll of the last hundred years to realise that.
The 30,000,000 Chinese and 23,000,000 Soviet Citizens who died in WWII weren't killed by women...
Women were not really allowed to fight, some did though. My grandmother joined the military police, she was excellent at finger locks.
I bet a bunch of those killed were killed by the transgenderd too.
All those killed were killed by people. I've met many men who were opposed to war, and many women who fully support war.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 26, 2009, 05:26:56 PM
All those killed were killed by people. I've met many men who were opposed to war, and many women who fully support war.
Agreed, but you tell me who did the actual killing.
Soldiers mainly, many of them just boys.
I don't know, I just couldn't kill someone, not even a war criminal, not even George Bush.
Quote from: imaz on March 26, 2009, 05:30:20 PM
Agreed, but you tell me who did the actual killing.
People who were given the orders to kill. Whether or not they actually wanted to obey the orders is immaterial. A soldier's job is to follow orders, regardless.
I believe I have it in me to kill someone and that is a scary thought. I can choose not to though.
Quote from: Nicky on March 26, 2009, 05:41:10 PM
I believe I have it in me to kill someone and that is a scary thought. I can choose not to though.
I can say the same of myself. If me or mine were threatened and the only way out was to kill, I'd do it. But, I can't help but think that killing would haunt me for the rest of my life.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 26, 2009, 05:40:59 PM
People who were given the orders to kill. Whether or not they actually wanted to obey the orders is immaterial. A soldier's job is to follow orders, regardless.
It's statistically proven that the majority of soldiers have historically aimed to miss the target.
Quote from: imaz on March 26, 2009, 05:57:09 PM
It's statistically proven that the majority of soldiers have historically aimed to miss the target.
There are Lies, Damn lies and Statistics ;D
I work in a statistical organisation ;)
I would like to see your source. Personally if someone was tyring to kill me I would shoot to kill. If you are right, that gives me just a little more faith in humanity.
Quote from: Nicky on March 26, 2009, 06:12:17 PM
Personally if someone was tyring to kill me I would shoot to kill. If you are right, that gives me just a little more faith in humanity.
Gives ya a bit of an edge too. ;D
Quote from: Nicky on March 26, 2009, 06:12:17 PM
There are Lies, Damn lies and Statistics ;D
I work in a statistical organisation ;)
I would like to see your source. Personally if someone was tyring to kill me I would shoot to kill. If you are right, that gives me just a little more faith in humanity.
It's true Nicky and it infuriated officers in both world wars. Too tired to Google for it but I assure you it's not made up. :)
I'm going to have a hunt around too. It sounds facinating.
Too true Kylykahyt ;D .
Quote from: imaz on March 26, 2009, 05:57:09 PM
It's statistically proven that the majority of soldiers have historically aimed to miss the target.
While I can see how this might be true with soldiers who are are relatively new to combat, I would imagine that once you've seen a few of your comrades fall your aim would probably improve quite rapidly.
While that might have been true in some cases, changing training methods also changed that reality.
My take from experience, One gets drafted or joins because of being taught it is in the best interest of the nation supported by Gov't and religion. Religion, everyone has a caveat that war is is insanity and thus you are insane at the time and are not responsible for your actions at the time and thus actions are not held against your entry into heaven. Hmmmm. All wars have been historically been fought for money and power. The crusades were all about the spice and silk routes nothing to do with religion just a convienient cover story and even the U.S. Civil war nothing to do with slavery, all about the northern states making big profits manufacturing and the South suppliers of the raw materials and not getting as wealthy as the North.
Once in a combat situation one may believe that it is for God and Country but quickly one realizes that it is a matter of survival for self and your team. I stayed so there would be one less person that would have to be exposed to such insanity. I would never wish the experience on my worst enemy. This is just my take on a distasteful subject. Love to all
To blame war on money and power is cynical and too simple. Sometimes wars are fought because one side miscalculates how far it can push the other. Sometimes wars are fought because of one or both sides inept and arrogant handling of the other. Nations are composed of multiple interests and no war benefits the interests of all the powerful players.
Wars are not fought by democracies without the backing of the populace. If potential draftees move to Canada or demonstrate in large numbers against a war or soldiers desert, prosecution of the war becomes extremely difficult.
At the start of the War Between the States, the South did not secede to initiate a long, bitter, and costly struggle; its leaders expected little opposition. Japan never wanted to fight the U.S. and attacked Pearl Harbor to prevent our entry into the war.
Money and power do not require war. Our two largest territorial acquisitions were the Louisiana Purchase and the purchase of Alaska. Both were bargains, far cheaper than war. Canada achieved independence without war. War creates enmities and complications that far outlast and outweigh the short-term gains envisioned.
Personally, I am glad my great-grandfather emigrated to the United States rather than accepting being drafted into the Czar's army and fighting to save one other from being drafted. So are the other one hundred of his descendants.
If you must fight, fight for sanity by civil disobedience,
S
Yes m'am, sir, m'am! :icon_shakefist: (androgyne salute)
Finally, the androgynes have a general! Triumph de Simoneon!
At ease, sweetie.
S
Quote from: Nicky on March 31, 2009, 09:01:51 PM
Yes m'am, sir, m'am! :icon_shakefist: (androgyne salute)
Finally, the androgynes have a general! Triumph de Simoneon!
Do we get uniforms?! :laugh:
Unicorn uniforms?
Instead of uniforms, each of us will wear something unique, individual, and becoming. We will wear disuniforms.
S
We will wear disuniforms.
I'm so there already! LOL.
Quote from: KYLYKaHYT on April 01, 2009, 07:59:44 AM
Unicorn uniforms?
I refuse to be the rear end... >:-)
Quote from: Jaimey on April 01, 2009, 06:12:14 PM
I refuse to be the rear end... >:-)
I don't mind being the ass.
Just keep your pants on k Jaimey? :)
Quote from: Nicky on April 02, 2009, 03:42:49 PM
I don't mind being the ass.
Just keep your pants on k Jaimey? :)
No promises. >:-)
Ok, at least exfoliate. ;D
Quote from: Nicky on March 25, 2009, 04:45:58 PM
I get the feeling androgynes are not that well suited to the regimented life of an army, navy or airforce. I imagine that we would likely be found in supporting roles, kitchen, entertainment, supplies, camp whore, or the protesters, the defaulters that sort of thing. But I don't really know.
I think that's kind of an odd comment. It seems to be making a lot of assumptions about "androgynes" having some kind of overarching, uniting character beyond their androgyny. Why the kitchens, why entertainment? Because we're all too feminine to get our hands dirty? Because we're little kids who want to play dress up? I don't get it.
All cultures make war, and lots of cultures have more than 2 genders. Ergo lots of cultures must have fighty-fighty androgynes. If you look at some cultures, people with androgynous traits are regarded as more dangerous in battle because they are seen as transgressing conventional social mores, or as imbued with some kind of magical power or significance.
Personally I don't see myself in the conventional military because I'm too mentally erratic to fit in well. I do badly with institutional irrationality. However I can definately see myself in battle, were I physically capable. I know what it is to fight for my own life and I could certainly do it again; fighting for the people I care about would be fairly natural for me.
I think because of their ability to adapt and work on their own that Andros would make great L.R.P.S. types and very good intelligence ops.
Quote from: Simone Louise on April 01, 2009, 10:39:54 AM
Instead of uniforms, each of us will wear something unique, individual, and becoming. We will wear disuniforms.
S
Perfect Simone! I'm picking out my outfit now, let's see, purple skirt, plumed beret...
Z
Quote from: Lokaeign on April 03, 2009, 08:35:14 AM
Personally I don't see myself in the conventional military because I'm too mentally erratic to fit in well. I do badly with institutional irrationality.
I think nicky's point is that as far as sie can see, we'd all say the same thing.
My military uniform with be a plum coloured musketeer's suit
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 03, 2009, 02:08:26 PM
I think nicky's point is that as far as sie can see, we'd all say the same thing.
My military uniform with be a plum coloured musketeer's suit
Pink camo top with blue camo cargo pants for me. Oh, yeah, coupled with f___ me boots.
If it has to be girls in uniform this is my fantasy type, Tupac Amrau guerrilla fighters...(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdiskopornosatan.org%2F1_gng%2F1_artTupacGirls_72.jpg&hash=c9264e4625d76b7f662348e118ba0b2f84db8cf7)
Quote from: Lokaeign on April 03, 2009, 08:35:14 AM
All cultures make war, and lots of cultures have more than 2 genders. Ergo lots of cultures must have fighty-fighty androgynes. If you look at some cultures, people with androgynous traits are regarded as more dangerous in battle because they are seen as transgressing conventional social mores, or as imbued with some kind of magical power or significance.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.slate.com%2Fmedia%2F10%2F030801_liberian-fighter.jpg&hash=7b363d1541ab5aa11ae3497afc8878198f726db8)
Article: Liberia's Crossdressing Soldiers (http://"http://www.slate.com/id/2086490/")
KYLYKaHYT: You read my mind! I was just going to go and chase up that story, but couldn't remember where it was from.
If the answer is War then the wrong questions are being asked
as for a uniform I don't want to wear the samething everyday although something pretty that could be worn differently for a different look eg reversible jacket might be ok
OMG! As if it wasn't bad enough already we're up against the Dykes too! (the one on the right is well hot, love the boxer's!)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg132.echo.cx%2Fimg132%2F491%2Fidfchicks6rk.jpg&hash=4d094ae68298a6d67586ea4f4529827a04cfcf40)
Quote from: imaz on April 06, 2009, 05:25:32 AM
OMG! As if it wasn't bad enough already we're up against the Dykes too! (the one on the right is well hot, love the boxer's!)
I remember when I was a kid, during the summertime all the boys would wear their boxers way down low so that they hung down beyond the bottom of their shorts or cutoffs. Being assumed to be a boy myself, I guess I was expected to dress likewise, but instead I tended to prefer my cutoffs extra-short, with the sides of the legs slit, and without the atrocious fashion statement of having a pair of ugly skivvies sticking out the bottom of them. I think these days, at least in the U.S., people refer to such shorts as "Daisy Dukes".
Of course, my own fashion statement got me teased to no end for being a sissy, ->-bleeped-<-, whatever... but to this day, I still can't fathom anything even remotely sexy about boxer shorts - no matter who's wearing them. :-\
Sorry for going off-topic. I guess those boxers just kinda triggered me. :laugh:
Come on! If that girl ain't sexy God knows what is! ;D
Quote from: Lokaeign on April 03, 2009, 08:35:14 AM
I think that's kind of an odd comment. It seems to be making a lot of assumptions about "androgynes" having some kind of overarching, uniting character beyond their androgyny. Why the kitchens, why entertainment? Because we're all too feminine to get our hands dirty? Because we're little kids who want to play dress up? I don't get it.
All cultures make war, and lots of cultures have more than 2 genders. Ergo lots of cultures must have fighty-fighty androgynes. If you look at some cultures, people with androgynous traits are regarded as more dangerous in battle because they are seen as transgressing conventional social mores, or as imbued with some kind of magical power or significance.
Personally I don't see myself in the conventional military because I'm too mentally erratic to fit in well. I do badly with institutional irrationality. However I can definately see myself in battle, were I physically capable. I know what it is to fight for my own life and I could certainly do it again; fighting for the people I care about would be fairly natural for me.
I did say "but I don't really know". It was just a guess based on they type of people I see here. I don't think many of us would do well in 'conventional' military - as in europen, american, english two gendered society armies.. When I talk to other androgynes I hear that many have struggles with conformity. Armies seem to be all about conforming or they break you, so I imagine that androgynes would more likely appear in roles that allow a little bit more freedom. My examples were probably a little misleading. I'm not saying we are not capable of fighting, many of us have already expressed that they are fully capable of violence if the need arises.
A wasn't even thinking of soldiers from other cultures. Thanks for that, food for thought..
Quote from: imaz on April 06, 2009, 11:17:39 AM
Come on! If that girl ain't sexy God knows what is! ;D
Them girls is cute. My evil twin wishes he could be so cute. Unfortunately he/she was running about rather scary places carrying an Automatic, a shotgun, a 9mm and a pair of .45's and a few other fine toys :laugh: It's all good, rather not think about it :laugh:
Unfortunately he/she was running about rather scary places carrying an Automatic, a shotgun, a 9mm and a pair of .45's and a few other fine toys
I believe those fine young women are members of the IDF, and have all those toys and more.
Girls will be girls :laugh:
Quote from: tekla on April 06, 2009, 07:37:42 PM
Unfortunately he/she was running about rather scary places carrying an Automatic, a shotgun, a 9mm and a pair of .45's and a few other fine toys
I believe those fine young women are members of the IDF, and have all those toys and more.
Unfortunately you are 100% correct, still would though. Shame on me! :o
There are some amazing men and women out there. The smiles of those extracted from bad places gives me no regrets. Seeing them greet their friends and family brings me to tears.
I remember a quote from somewhere:
Violence is the last resort of the incompetent
Quote from: imaz on April 06, 2009, 11:17:39 AM
Come on! If that girl ain't sexy God knows what is! ;D
I never said the girl wasn't sexy, I just said her skivvies weren't. ;)
Quote from: KYLYKaHYT on April 07, 2009, 06:56:20 AM
I never said the girl wasn't sexy, I just said her skivvies weren't. ;)
That's the best bit! She knows what she wants... >:-)
Quote from: CindyJames on April 07, 2009, 05:16:13 AM
I remember a quote from somewhere:
Violence is the last resort of the incompetent
I think that's from Isaac Asimov's
Foundation books, possibly from the first one. I never read them, but my older brother has.