I know about ->-bleeped-<-s and cross-dressers, but I have begun noticing people will go so far as to blatantly SAY they are a transgender or transsexual just because they want to show it off... is it me or are people just trying to play with words or be who they are not?
I am not saying trans do NOT want to be the opposite gender, but it seems titles like these are taking a big tsunami wave and people think that having a title of transgender is who they are or transsexual and not actually their chosen gender... is it me or are we seeing a new trend?
That or am I just noticing this?
(Topic re-named)
Quote from: Janet Merai on April 15, 2009, 01:48:34 AM
I know about ->-bleeped-<-s and cross-dressers, but I have begun noticing people will go so far as to blatantly SAY they are a transgender or transsexual just because they want to show it off... is it me or are people just trying to play with words or be who they are not?
I am not saying trans do NOT want to be the opposite gender, but it seems titles like these are taking a big tsunami wave and people think that having a title of transgender is who they are or transsexual and not actually their chosen gender... is it me or are we seeing a new trend?
That or am I just noticing this?
You're just notcing this. Some people like to take pride in being trans -- I'm not really sure where I stand as far as that goes yet.
I know I am a transgender due to the term indicating my sex/gender is opposite from my mental sex/gender.
But when I envision myself as a female I do NOT see a transgender but a full female with everything there.
When someone asks me who I am, I am not going to say "transsexual" but "Janet Merai."
I just do not see why people go so much to say they are who they are not.
I know the title shows you are different but trans have been around since the early days and people still seem to enjoy using titles... odd lol
Right now I am a transgender and reflecting my status because I am not legally female as of yet so I use this title to show my progress.
But when I become post-op or anything beyond or behind, I will reflect that to show my status, but other than that, its like using Romaji in Japanese when you learn Hiragana/Katakana/Kanji, Romaji becomes useless just like a title becomes because you tie yourself to someone you are not.
I want to be known as Janet Merai and not a transsexual, just a woman :3
(Of course I will actually be a transsexual, but you get the point)
Quote from: Janet Merai on April 15, 2009, 02:45:55 AM
I know I am a transgender due to the term indicating my sex/gender is opposite from my mental sex/gender.
But when I envision myself as a female I do NOT see a transgender but a full female with everything there.
When someone asks me who I am, I am not going to say "transsexual" but "Janet Merai."
I just do not see why people go so much to say they are who they are not.
I know the title shows you are different but trans have been around since the early days and people still seem to enjoy using titles... odd lol
Right now I am a transgender and reflecting my status because I am not legally female as of yet so I use this title to show my progress.
But when I become post-op or anything beyond or behind, I will reflect that to show my status, but other than that, its like using Romaji in Japanese when you learn Hiragana/Katakana/Kanji, Romaji becomes useless just like a title becomes because you tie yourself to someone you are not.
I want to be known as Janet Merai and not a transsexual, just a woman :3
(Of course I will actually be a transsexual, but you get the point)
A lot of people in our situation feel the same way as you do and let go of the trans label once they fully transition. But not everyone, and I think it's good to have some people who are proud of what we go through because otherwise we would become invisible.
Hmm, maybe some people want to reclaim the word transsexual, like gay.
If transsexuals are proud of being transsexuals, that could send a message to people still in the closet that it's okay to feel the way that they do.
To each their own.
Quote from: Blueflare on April 15, 2009, 06:10:02 AM
Hmm, maybe some people want to reclaim the word transsexual, like gay.
If transsexuals are proud of being transsexuals, that could send a message to people still in the closet that it's okay to feel the way that they do.
There's that (Which is, in my opinion, an extremely positive thing!), and then there's my position.
I was born a girl in the flesh.
No matter how many surgeries I have, how long I'm on hormones, how much time I spend as a man, I can never change the fact that I was born with a vagina instead of a penis.
There will be moments where I will have to explain the absence of natural testicles to my new doctor.
There will be moments where I will have to explain to a prospective lover that my equipment isn't "up to code".
I call myself Trans because I am, plain and simple.
I use the word because "I" need to come to terms with facts I can not change.
I use the word because it's the "right" word.
This doesn't mean I'll shake the hand of a newly met stranger and introduce myself as a transexual, but it means I won't hide from the word or pretend that my youth didn't happen.
Who we are today depends on the path we've walked. If we love ourselves now, we should take pride in all that has come before it, even (if not especially) the parts that were difficult or painful.
Quote from: Miniar on April 15, 2009, 08:18:32 AM
Who we are today depends on the path we've walked. If we love ourselves now, we should take pride in all that has come before it, even (if not especially) the parts that were difficult or painful.
The past forms us. I am and always will be transgendered. I can "fix" my body and my place in society, but I will still have been pretending to have been a man most of my life. And people reacted to me as if I was a man. Perhaps after I transition they will relate to me as a woman. But most people ("normal" people, for want of a better word) will not have had this experience of being born in the wrong body, relating to the world in the wrong gender, struggling to make it right. Therefore, I will always be transgendered. It is what has formed me, just as my years in the military and my marriage and everything else has formed me.
Anyway, what's wrong with being transgendered? ;)
- Kate
I think some of you have taken what I have said the wrong way :3
I am not against transgenders or transsexuals, all I meant to say was I noticed a trend that want to say they are transgender/transsexual just because they are and make that their gender instead of female/male.
Now I am not against ->-bleeped-<- or transsexualism but it was something I noticed.
I will always be a transgender up until I become a transsexual just like someone mentioned and it WILL be a part of my past, I just mentioned that I wanted to be known as a female despite my past... even if it will shock others I know the consequences.
Hopefully that clears things up :P
some don't mind being labeled as a 3rd gender. Nothing wrong with that.
I do not mind being labeled a transgender or transsexual either, because in reality I will never be seen as a 100% real genetic female in the eyes of the law or other traditional people.
I wish I was female but I can live my life as if I were a female and be happy about it :3
Quote from: Ashley315 on April 15, 2009, 03:27:42 PM
some don't mind being labeled as a 3rd gender. Nothing wrong with that.
Indeed, it ain't a bad place to be.
I think it's certainly possible that someone could, through denial find themselves fighting to be trans, more than as trans.
Would you be proud of being diabetic?
I've mentioned this before in other posts. I am a woman. I was born a woman, I have always been a woman and I will die as a woman.
I am proud of that.
I was born with a birth defect that went untreated for over half a century and very nearly killed me. But I have had it corrected and I am glad to be alive.
I don't wear a sign around my neck proclaiming TRANSSEXUAL!!! But neither do I deny it anymore than I would deny that I had diabetes.
I stand as a proud human being and to those trans people who are trying to deal with this "Blessing inside a curse" I try to be an example.
There are those who are "over the top". And I daresay that there are those types in virtually every type of human endeavor. But as a trend, I don't think so. It may be that there is a bit more social exposure and acceptance which is a good thing. But there are things like "RuPaul's Drag Race" which is by definition "over the top" and a bit in bad taste if you ask me. It really doesn't advance the cause of trans people at all. It is the equivalent of white actors doing blackface and saying that it was advancing the cause of racial understanding.
*Sandy steps off her soapbox*
Carry on...
-Sandy
Quote from: Sandy on April 16, 2009, 07:56:20 AMWould you be proud of being diabetic?
If I were a diabetic and was able to manage my condition successfully and still live a life worth living, then the answer is a big, fat, YES!
Of course I would be proud.
I don't think "proud" is the right word, as such, rather not ashamed.
Quote from: Blueflare on April 16, 2009, 09:14:17 AM
I don't think "proud" is the right word, as such, rather not ashamed.
I agree with Blueflare. I am not proud that I am transgendered. From a very early age, I never went out of my way to show that I am transgendered. The things that I have done as far as my dress and my actions were always just me being me. And as Blueflare says, I have never been ashamed that I am the way I am just as someone should never be ashamed because of their race, physical condition, etc.
My name is Mister, and I am anemia!
What this means is that thanks to the media and other public education making existence of transgendered people better known, some actually consider it something a characteristic worth flaunting. I believe this is a very good thing. I hope it means fewer young people will suffer self condemnation and confusion because they feel different.
This is a matter that we will always be at odds with each other about, though. Identity crisis is the reason this board exists. Each of us has doubtless had a few different concepts of our identities over the course of our lifetimes. And self-concept is very different between transsexuals, androgynes and the gender crossers.
I, personally, identify myself as transgendered and not female (or male). I came to this conclusion after many years of agonizing over the matter. Knowing what I am allows me to stop stressing and get on with my life.
Female and male are biological terms that are based on chromosomes, so with that standard no one born male can become female and vice versa with today's technology (maybe in 100 years they will be able to fix that). No amount of hormones or surgery is going to change your DNA.
Case in point. Lets say you were burned beyond total recognition, but they were able to pull a DNA sample from your corpse. It wouldn't matter how much surgery you had had or how many years of hormones you had taken or even if you lived total stealth, they are going to say the corpse found was male or female based solely on what the DNA says. They may do a little digging and later on discover you are transgendered and then label you as such. (Though I'm not sure how they would label someone who is genetically intersexed. I guess they would be confused)
Gender on the other hand, is fluid and full of many variances. Anyone can claim to be of any gender they choose and if they present that way, most people in society will just go with it and accept things for face value. There is no right or wrong way to be with gender.
My point is that it is all in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has different views on who they are. Personally, I view myself as a woman. Granted, yes, I am a transwoman, but that makes me no more or no less than any other woman out there. And everyone has the right to view themselves however they want to, but don't always expect everyone else to share your same view, but, if you are happy, then who cares what anyone else thinks anyway.
Quote from: Miniar on April 15, 2009, 08:18:32 AM
There's that (Which is, in my opinion, an extremely positive thing!), and then there's my position.
I was born a girl in the flesh.
No matter how many surgeries I have, how long I'm on hormones, how much time I spend as a man, I can never change the fact that I was born with a vagina instead of a penis.
There will be moments where I will have to explain the absence of natural testicles to my new doctor.
There will be moments where I will have to explain to a prospective lover that my equipment isn't "up to code".
I call myself Trans because I am, plain and simple.
I use the word because "I" need to come to terms with facts I can not change.
I use the word because it's the "right" word.
This doesn't mean I'll shake the hand of a newly met stranger and introduce myself as a transexual, but it means I won't hide from the word or pretend that my youth didn't happen.
Who we are today depends on the path we've walked. If we love ourselves now, we should take pride in all that has come before it, even (if not especially) the parts that were difficult or painful.
I love you. Good post.
Quote from: Miniar on April 16, 2009, 08:53:43 AM
If I were a diabetic and was able to manage my condition successfully and still live a life worth living, then the answer is a big, fat, YES!
Of course I would be proud.
Agreed! :laugh: I actually have a friend who is diabetic and very open about it and proud of herself.
The difference is that you're not proud of being diabetic. It means that you're proud of yourself as a diabetic person. It's the same for being trans. I'm not proud of my ->-bleeped-<-. I'm proud of myself and I'm a transgendered person. :)
Of course there's a difference between being proud and being "in your face". If you shove it down people's throats...that's not what you want. But I think that having pride in ourselves is important and necessary when it comes to rights and such.
Quote from: interalia on April 16, 2009, 11:54:38 PM
I love you. Good post.
My thoughts exactly. Miniar, you are fantastic. :D
I can agree with that. It seems logical enough and given that we really don't know much about the nature of DNA other than how it's made and what it's made of, we surely don't know what each individual combination in the chain does.
My post was just a basic breakdown of things. Mostly because I was to lazy to type out anything like the long post you made. :) Not only are we a long way from fully understanding DNA and chromosome mapping, but we are a long way away from understanding the human brain. I do believe there are many traits and behaviors that are controlled (to some extent) by our DNA construct, but, I also believe than there are many more behaviors and traits that are simply learned from the moment we are conceived. I do think one can (choose) to change any behavior they want to. People do it all the time and get paid millions of dollars for it. They call it acting. :)
Maybe one day we will fully understand the wonder that is the human being.
I do think one can (choose) to change any behavior they want to. People do it all the time and get paid millions of dollars for it. They call it acting.
In fact, its very, very hard to do in a way that is compelling and convincing, which is why they get paid that much.
That, and that's not at all what acting is all about.
I'm not necessarily proud to be trans, because it's certainly not something I chose... however, I am proud to be who I am, and being trans is part of that, albeit a small part. I refuse to be ashamed of it, as I refuse to be "stealth".
Somebody said this, but I can't find the post on here... if more of us were open and upfront about being trans, and weren't ashamed of it, perhaps more people who are in the closet would have the courage to be themselves. I'm a man who was born with XX chromosomes, and who over time developed female physical characteristics... and yet I'm still a man. Nothing can change that, and I certainly had no power to change the fact that I was born female with a male mind. I think gay people became empowered when the world began to realize that homosexuality is not a choice... and hopefully the same will happen with transsexuals.
Yes, I am a man... one with breasts and a vagina, and one who has to give himself weekly injections to feel like himself. And I'm certainly not ashamed of that.
SD
I think gay people became empowered when the world began to realize that homosexuality is not a choice
B.S. Gay people became empowered when they took the power. They stood up, in public and said, "We're here, we're queer, get used to it." When enough of them did that, it became a force.
It has nothing to do with choice, but it has everything to do with being willing to take a public stand about who you are and what you are.
As a diabetic for about 5 years now, my feeling for that is simply that for me it has become a way of life and accepting ways that I am different from other people. Certainly, I looked at the change in my life as a big thing when it was discovered, and I had to learn new things in order to live and stay well. Now that I have lived with it and learned where my choices in life have to be different, some of them are fun. I have always loved to cook, and learning new recipes and meal plans, and even coming up with entire meals for other family members and friends that are well within my diet and so tasty that they never guess it was diabetic balanced and perish the thought HEALTHY gives me evil pleasure. The fact of a nice meal and the humor of their reactions makes it fun. Not really proud, but its not a burden either any more.
Another place where I recently came to grips with another situation that is life changing, is that my brain is apparently wired with a predisposition to physical addictions to drugs and alcohol. Ok, no more drinking for fun, or any other reason. Now that I get the picture, its Ho Humm, pass the iced tea. Some people tell me I should be proud that my last drink of booze and a few pills was over 6 months ago. I do go to a 12 step meeting, and the rest of them reacted more heavily to my 6 months status than another person's six years. I am much happier now than I was this time last year, but thats what I look at.
Both of these things are also the way I look at my dissatisfaction with the gender that my mother's OB/GYN declared me to be back in 1948. I am not proud that I am this way. Why be proud of something that has put you through HELL?? Some of that is why my other two life changing health/psycho-chemistry related issues happened. (Beer bellys are serious weight that screws up the liver and pancreas which causes Type 2 diabetes. Gender dissatisfaction makes you grouchy and unhappy, so you look to beer to make you feel better, as it take more beer to feel better, the beer belly gets larger.)
I could go into another genetic condition that makes my blood the same for vampires as the beer is for me, but its more fun to keep people guessing.
OK bottom line for this "Trans Girl" is that I don't know whether I will live 24/7 as a woman, have GRS or even if I will get HRT because of my other internal damage. I am and have been a female spirited person since earliest memory, although the female was a concept I had not defined early on. I was a boy because the doctor said I was, and I mistakenly thought all boys were like I was!!! I can be big about it, that was a terrible mistake on my part. I have a sister who is much more "one of the boys" even during her precious girlhood :icon_blah: than I ever was!!
I have noticed a large number of people claiming to be "Transgendered" with no claim to being or becoming their pretend gender. Many of these are on a "bandwagon" rock 'em and shock 'em trip. They are expressing their "individuality" much as gang bangers wear Oakland Raiders gear. How individual is that? ???
Meanwhile, "Transgendered" is a term that I feel about the same as I do the lable "Alcoholic". "Hi I'm Vicky and I am a Transgenderedalcoholic". (deliberate word fusion) "Hi Vicky!" It describes a condition for the public horror or enlightenment, but in no way invites knowledge of the individual which is what is really needed. I am a person, not a social phenomenae or an epithet. Yes I do see people that use Transgendered in a way that "disses" all of us that simply need a short answer to why are you dressed funny?
Quote from: Sebastien on April 17, 2009, 12:51:32 AM
I'm not necessarily proud to be trans, because it's certainly not something I chose... however, I am proud to be who I am, and being trans is part of that, albeit a small part. I refuse to be ashamed of it, as I refuse to be "stealth".
Somebody said this, but I can't find the post on here... if more of us were open and upfront about being trans, and weren't ashamed of it, perhaps more people who are in the closet would have the courage to be themselves.
Early in this process I was talking to my minister about being transgendered. I was bemoaning the (perceived) fact that it would be easier to be gay. She pointed out that is because everyone either knows someone who is gay or knows of someone who is gay but may not know that they know someone who is trans. (I hope that makes sense. ???) She said maybe if I was more open about it more people would realize they know someone trans.
That helped me a lot. When I would have doubts about moving forward toward full openness and transition, I would remember that part of what I'm doing is social activism. That thought would give me the courage to continue moving forward. I'm doing this for me, but in a way I'm also doing it for those still in the closet.
Quote from: tekla on April 17, 2009, 12:55:15 AM
Gay people became empowered when they took the power. They stood up, in public and said, "We're here, we're queer, get used to it." When enough of them did that, it became a force.
It has nothing to do with choice, but it has everything to do with being willing to take a public stand about who you are and what you are.
Exactly.
I hope to live most of the rest of my life as a woman. As Miniar said (better than I can) I'm not going to wear a sign that I'm trans, but I don't expect to hide that fact.
If necessary I will stand up for my right to be who I was born to be and to stand with you for your right to be who you were born to be. The rest of the time I just want to be Katherine.
- Kate
I wish I could rename this topic "People Who are Female and Who are Not Ashamed of Also being Transgendered." The current title seems to presume that the two are mutually exclusive. That rubs me the wrong way.
Quote from: tekla on April 17, 2009, 12:22:23 AM
I do think one can (choose) to change any behavior they want to. People do it all the time and get paid millions of dollars for it. They call it acting.
In fact, its very, very hard to do in a way that is compelling and convincing, which is why they get paid that much.
That, and that's not at all what acting is all about.
It's exactly what acting is about.. Acting is nothing more than playing the role of someone else (behaviors and attitudes). Simply put, it's something trans people have years of experience in.. I've always said that trans people would make the best actors ever.
Quote from: Sebastien on April 17, 2009, 12:51:32 AMYes, I am a man... one with breasts and a vagina, and one who has to give himself weekly injections to feel like himself. And I'm certainly not ashamed of that.
I am. Sigh. Yes, I still am. I still think of myself as a freak. I guess that's from decades of self-conditioning and internal reinforcement.
But I'm also having a particularly bad day today. Tomorrow might be better.
I was watching a youtube video of a girl that says she is what is becoming more and more prevalent among us as a non-op transsexual woman. Of course, there are many girls and boys in the community who choose for whatever reason to not have surgery. However, this girl's reason for not wanting to have surgery is plain outright offensive to me and other girls who have and want to have Viginoplasty. Rather than draw attention to her youtube video, she says, her reason for not wanting to have surgery is because she feels that the surgery only leads to a imitation, not real, cosmetic imitation vagina. I was deeply offended by this as well many of the trans-women on Youtube. Yet, she felt as if we were attacking her by sending her comments that her choice of words was offense. She compared her reasons for not wanting surgery with those of trans-men. She says that trans-men often don't have the surgery because the results aren't real. The results aren't good enough.
This kind of talk brings back the very same excuses that cis-women try to use to say we aren't real women or men. How often have I heard cis-women say that a trans-women can never be a real woman because they weren't born just like them. Or, trans-women don't bleed or can't have babies so they can't be real women. I read one time how an African American man came down on Isis King from ANTM saying that she is an insult to men and women because she can't bleed or have babies. I was shocked and applaud at the ignorance people have towards not only the trans community, but also the intersexed community.
As an intersexed woman forced to live her childhood as a boy, I know first hand what's it like to be something you are not simply because people choose to ignore the facts. This girl has insulted not only the trans-women, but all women who have had Viginoplasty right down to women who have viginal agensis. 1 in 5,000 females in this world are born without a vagina. They have to go through the same proceedure as some intersexed women and trans-women must go through. The exception to the rule is that, they don't have penile or scrotum skin to line the neo-vagina. Thus they doctors have to use full-thickness skin grafts.
So for anyone to stand in the face of any woman and say to her, your not a real woman or your vagina isn't real because you weren't born with one is simply ignorant.
Now with that said, I have nothing against trans-women who do not want to have surgery. That's their business. But please, if you are reading this and you consider yourself a non-op trans-woman, don't take on the notion that viginoplasty only leads to a imitation, not real, cosmetic imitation vagina.
Quote from: JasmineG on April 17, 2009, 01:24:51 PM
I was watching a youtube video of a girl that says she is what is becoming more and more prevalent among us as a non-op transsexual woman. Of course, there are many girls and boys in the community who choose for whatever reason to not have surgery. However, this girl's reason for not wanting to have surgery is plain outright offensive to me and other girls who have and want to have Viginoplasty. Rather than draw attention to her youtube video, she says, her reason for not wanting to have surgery is because she feels that the surgery only leads to a imitation, not real, cosmetic imitation vagina. I was deeply offended by this as well many of the trans-women on Youtube. Yet, she felt as if we were attacking her by sending her comments that her choice of words was offense. She compared her reasons for not wanting surgery with those of trans-men. She says that trans-men often don't have the surgery because the results aren't real. The results aren't good enough.
This kind of talk brings back the very same excuses that cis-women try to use to say we aren't real women or men. How often have I heard cis-women say that a trans-women can never be a real woman because they weren't born just like them. Or, trans-women don't bleed or can't have babies so they can't be real women. I read one time how an African American man came down on Isis King from ANTM saying that she is an insult to men and women because she can't bleed or have babies. I was shocked and applaud at the ignorance people have towards not only the trans community, but also the intersexed community.
As an intersexed woman forced to live her childhood as a boy, I know first hand what's it like to be something you are not simply because people choose to ignore the facts. This girl has insulted not only the trans-women, but all women who have had Viginoplasty right down to women who have viginal agensis. 1 in 5,000 females in this world are born without a vagina. They have to go through the same proceedure as some intersexed women and trans-women must go through. The exception to the rule is that, they don't have penile or scrotum skin to line the neo-vagina. Thus they doctors have to use full-thickness skin grafts.
So for anyone to stand in the face of any woman and say to her, your not a real woman or your vagina isn't real because you weren't born with one is simply ignorant.
Now with that said, I have nothing against trans-women who do not want to have surgery. That's their business. But please, if you are reading this and you consider yourself a non-op trans-woman, don't take on the notion that viginoplasty only leads to a imitation, not real, cosmetic imitation vagina.
I think your passion over this issue has caused you to read in too much to what this girl said. She seems to have merely stated HER reason for not wanting vaginoplasty - not making a statement about all those who do receive it. For them it is good enough, for her it is not. Seems pretty open and shut to me.
Quote from: glendagladwitch on April 17, 2009, 09:50:25 AM
I wish I could rename this topic "People Who are Female and Who are Not Ashamed of Also being Transgendered." The current title seems to presume that the two are mutually exclusive. That rubs me the wrong way.
Agreed.
Quote from: interalia on April 17, 2009, 01:29:24 PM
I think your passion over this issue has caused you to read in too much to what this girl said. She seems to have merely stated HER reason for not wanting vaginoplasty - not making a statement about all those who do receive it. For them it is good enough, for her it is not. Seems pretty open and shut to me.
And that's ok. Everyone has their reason for why or why not they choose to have or not have SRS. Yet, to say that SRS is only imitation of a genetic female is insulting no matter how you try to read between the lines.
I would never walk up to any FTM that does decide to have phalloplasty and say, "I think yours is cosmetic and an imitation vs. a genetic male is real." It's not just me who has recognized this and I only posted here because I thought this was the place to express my concern. I have started a separate thread in the non-op section asking all non-op to please be careful what they say.
I don't my words are insulting to anyone to ask a simple plea, watch what you say. If you haven't notice, this is common trend starting to pop up among non-op trans-women and it really is causing me to not even want to identify with any trans community because of it.
God help me if I went to an AIS convention and one of the girls stood up and said we are imitation of real women because we don't bleed or can't have babies and doctors had to help us enjoy our lives as females. This would never be said in the intersex community and I don't think it should be said within the trans community.
If a trans-woman or trans-man feels that the surgery is unacceptable to her or him, I can understand that. Let's leave it at that. Because I belong to a group of women (1 in 5,000) who was not born with a vagina and will have to have or have already had surgical procedures to create one and they are very happy. To add to insult that we are imitation of real women is just unacceptable to me.
Quote from: JasmineG on April 17, 2009, 04:28:55 PM
To add to insult that we are imitation of real women is just unacceptable to me.
I don't think anyone in this thread has said that, so I'm a little confused at what you're getting at. What the original poster was getting at is that she doesn't understand why women who happen to have been born in male bodies don't just call themselves 'women'. She wants to know why they still use transgendered/transsexual (or intersexed, if that happens to be the case).
Quote
I wish I could rename this topic "People Who are Female and Who are Not Ashamed of Also being Transgendered." The current title seems to presume that the two are mutually exclusive. That rubs me the wrong way.
The new topic name RUBS me in the wrong way.
Old:
People who WANT to be a transgender and not female? - Not properly worded it seems. But talks about that some transgender persons dont want/use/etc the identification as female. Happens and it brings a lot of questions.
New:
Those who are female and also not afraid of being transgendered - Its like you are saying rejecting the TG label its wrong. I call BS on this one.
I don't think she was saying that trans women are immitations of women, just their vaginas are immitations of natal vaginas.. There really isn't any argument there really. It is what it is. Does it look and function the same? For the most part yes.... But that doesn't make it the same.
Given the option, what would you choose, one that was grown naturally since your birth, or one that was made from the penis you once had?
Yeah.. that's what I thought.
Quote from: Zelane on April 18, 2009, 12:00:30 AMNew: Those who are female and also not afraid of being transgendered - Its like you are saying rejecting the TG label its wrong. I call BS on this one.
Why?
Because they are some persons who dislike the TG label (I wont go into details or discussion on that, too extensive) And what if they are female, gender female, identify as female but not TG.
Its like saying... that those that dont use the label are scared of things, etc, etc (which bring me to the so old discussion of stealth vs out)
I think the OP was referring to some persons who are TG/TS (leaning to the female side) but they dont refer to themselves as female or woman. Or something like... "Im just a woman, no matter what my body might say"
Something like that. I knew one TG girl that she says she was gay (homosexual man) That was due to the culture of the place where she grew up and transitioned. And that was how others told her was her label and identity. I told her that no, that she was a girl (not only physical but her vibe)
Another person I knew she had transitioned social roles several years ago. But she told me she wasnt sure if she felt female or was female. Like something was missing was her answer (actually she just had FFS but not SRS and later told me ti was because of not having SRS)
Being Trans doesn't make you less of a woman, it only means your body wasn't female from birth.
I agree. Its just I dont like the transgender label because its a too broad label.
In the end, you can call me whatever you want :p
(I dont use most of the labels around here)
The point is ofcourse is that nothing you ever do will change what you were at birth, and sometimes those that deny any reference to anything other than their chosen gender come off as if they are denying what they were at birth, denying their childhood and all the things that happened within it that helped forge who they are today, as well as denying their own transition and all the challenges they met there that helped forge who they are today.
As such (to me at least) they come of as if they are denying a large portion of what has made them who they are today, where as I would think anyone who'd face true hardship and overcome it should take pride in the strength they've shown through that, at least.
I haven't forgotten what I'm. I've always been a woman. female born by brain sex.
Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 09:41:42 AM
Thats the difference. You see yourself as something else other than the gender you identify as. You'r re one of those peeps that think that genetics & chromosomes make you..lol. You believe you're "different" than other men, not a man, but something "like a man".
Is that what I said? No.
I don't believe chromosomes make the man, but I will not live in denial of my birth, youth, and what I have gone through to become on the outside what I've always been on the inside.
You seem to think that anything trans mean you're "not" male or female, which is not what I've been saying. It is exactly the opposite of what I've been saying.
Just because you're trans doesn't mean you're less of a woman, all it means is that you had to work hard to get to be the woman in the flesh that you've always been within yourself. That hard work is a part of who you are. It's formed you, changed you, made you into someone you would not have become if you hadn't needed to go through it. If you love who you are right now, you should embrace the path you've walked. That is all.
Do not put words in my mouth.
Quote from: SabineI haven't forgotten what I'm. I've always been a woman. female born by brain sex. See I'm not "denying" anything, I'm actually ADMITTING it. That's what I meant by "agenda" on my other post.
Am I telling you not to call yourself a woman?
Have I, or anyone, insinuated that TG/TS and Woman are mutually exclusive?
No.
Again, Do not put words in my mouth.
Quote from: Miniar on April 18, 2009, 09:34:53 AM
The point is ofcourse is that nothing you ever do will change what you were at birth, and sometimes those that deny any reference to anything other than their chosen gender come off as if they are denying what they were at birth, denying their childhood and all the things that happened within it that helped forge who they are today, as well as denying their own transition and all the challenges they met there that helped forge who they are today.
Yes, past its past no point denying it or wishing over and over it could be changed. As sad as past could be. The best its to accept it and move on.
Ah but precisely to me the part where I dont use some labels its because they dont fully represent me. Given that I dont like lies I opted to not use them on me because part of them are inexact (but no point moving the topic beyond)
Quote from: Miniar on April 18, 2009, 09:48:36 AM
That hard work is a part of who you are. It's formed you, changed you, made you into someone you would not have become if you hadn't needed to go through it. If you love who you are right now, you should embrace the path you've walked. That is all.
You seem to embrace your "difference" & I praise you for that but that's not what most of us here think about ourselves. We've always been what we are,
women by birth, brain sex again.
Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 10:05:30 AM
I repeat your words.."don't put words in my mouth or anyone else's"
That's the thing, I've not put words in your mouth, only gone by what you've had to say.
Quote from: SabineThat's what you believe for yourself, it isn't what it's for anyone born the wrong sex.
"anyone" here would imply that if I do believe this for myself then I was "not" born the wrong sex, which I take significant offense with.
Just because people don't agree with you on this doesn't mean they weren't born in the wrong sex.
Quote from: SabineAgain, you seem to embrace your "difference" & I praise you for that but that's not what most of us here think about ourselves. We've always been what we are, women by birth, brain sex again. I recommend the lessons & blogs on the Science board for future reference..
The point I'm making is something you yourself just referred to: "born the wrong sex"
Quote from: Sabineyou're a newbie, aint you? ;)
Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me a newbie.
Try to be civil next time you feel the need to argue with what I have said and don't sink to the level of yelling "agenda" and putting words in my mouth.
Thank you.
It seems you're new at this.
Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 10:35:11 AM
Yup you're a newbie, no question about it & I don't mean that as an insult but as what it is, the truth. "born the wrong sex" as in body not as in brain sex. Get it? that's the key of it all. I don't care if you agree or disagree with me. Believe me. I could care less. I'm here to educate people. Some people want to be educated & others just want to follow their own agenda. Seems to me that the latter's true for you. Don't mean to be mean but your posts speak for themselves. You believe you're "different" than other men. that speaks for itself.
What is your definition of "newbie" then?
Someone new to the forum? (Been here a little while, don't feel new to 'em anymore.)
Someone with a less than x post-count?
Someone who disagrees with you?
I meant "born the wrong sex" as body, not brain, same as you. It's not that hard to get.
I know and accept that I "am" different than other men in that I was born a woman and nothing that I do will ever change that.
"Different" however does not mean lesser, or less real, or less genuine. I am a man, same as any other man, and I have always been one and will always be one, only I wasn't born with the right equipment.
No two people are "excactly" the same. No one is "the same" as all other men. We are all unique. This is part of how I am.
I also think for myself.
I don't impose my beliefs on other people.
I don't tell people that if they disagree with me then they're wrong, or lesser people.
All I did was state an opinion.
You are the one making it into an agenda.
I would think that "being here to educate people" and then stating that people who disagree with you on a matter of opinion are fundamentally wrong seems more like imposing one's own opinions on people which in and of itself is more of an agenda than simply standing up for one's opinions even when someone tells you you're wrong simply because they disagree.
I don't mean to be mean either. I do my best to keep to the topic, be direct and honest and explain what I mean. I don't allow my emotions to control my words and stick to what I mean.
This post, and every post I make, are written in a calm and composed manner.
Also, if you don't care whether or not I agree then why argue and call "agenda"?
Quote from: Sabine on April 18, 2009, 10:05:30 AM
I repeat your words.."don't put words in my mouth or anyone else's" That's what you believe for yourself, it isn't what it's for anyone born the wrong sex. Again, you seem to embrace your "difference" & I praise you for that but that's not what most of us here think about ourselves. We've always been what we are, women by birth, brain sex again. I recommend the lessons & blogs on the Science board for future reference..you're a newbie, aint you? ;)
I think this is just semantics. Miniar doesn't seem to be saying he isn't a man by birth, but that he recognizes the path he walked.
Okay. I would like to step in here and remind
everyone about this particular rule:
Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
If this discussion continues along the track of using petty insults to discredit other people's opinions, it will be locked. Everyone has the right to believe what they believe, and it is not a sign of being a 'newbie' or being 'less educated,' it is a sign of being an individual.
Now, can we please agree to disagree and move on a bit?
You forgot intersex.
And androgynous.
I tend to think there's more than four or six or ten levels, anyway. Why not a fluid continuum? That way everyone is encompassed, instead of trying to chop off rough corners of their being to fit into rigidly-defined definitions.
Quote from: Miniar on April 18, 2009, 10:44:21 AM
I would think that "being here to educate people" and then stating that people who disagree with you on a matter of opinion are fundamentally wrong seems more like imposing one's own opinions on people which in and of itself is more of an agenda than simply standing up for one's opinions even when someone tells you you're wrong simply because they disagree.
Word. I've always appreciated your posts Miniar. If someone needs someone to rail against for having an agenda, they can rail against me. I do have an agenda - to seek the welfare of my transgendered brothers and sisters. Specifically in finding a way for them to find peace without transition - to have an option other than transition. I'm not ashamed of this agenda nor it is divisive.
I think we are born with a gender, which doesn't necessarily match the anatomical sex we are born with. The body can be intersexed or male or female (or...). The gender can be any of those and perhaps more.
I was born as a little girl, but the extra stuff I had gave everyone the visual cues that I was a boy. I tried to be a boy to please them but somehow knew I was really a girl.
Our past forms us. If I succeed in becoming the woman I always wanted to be, I will still have a history that has formed me. I grew up in a certain neighborhood where I worked as a paperboy and got beat up and robbed. That formed me. I went to college and got drafted into the Army. That formed me. I lived on a ship for five years, sailing the high seas. That formed me. I expect that my time trying to live as a man has formed me, too.
We each deal with our past in our own ways. I think I will always think of myself as trans because my life as an ersatz man, trying to deny that I should be a woman, and the work to transition to being whole will have formed me.
Each of us chooses how to deal with life in different ways because we have all followed different paths to where we are now.
May each of us find peace and love on our journeys,
- Kate
Quote from: Zelane on April 18, 2009, 12:00:30 AM
The new topic name RUBS me in the wrong way.
Old: People who WANT to be a transgender and not female? - Not properly worded it seems. But talks about that some transgender persons dont want/use/etc the identification as female. Happens and it brings a lot of questions.
New: Those who are female and also not afraid of being transgendered - Its like you are saying rejecting the TG label its wrong. I call BS on this one.
Seems to me the number of MTFs who think any MTF who identifies as transgendered does not
properly and
completely identify as a woman FAR outways the number of MTFs who identify as a "third sex" and not at all as women. And I think the former is what the original topic brought to mind for practically everyone who read it.
These topics are a never ending circle. At the end of the day does it really matter what one is?
Surely the important thing is the person's mental and physical health and how they interact with those around them.
I'm 56 and as the years go by and the more I think about it, the more all this becomes irrelevant. In general people's thinking is heavily influenced by social mores, political stance and peer groups... One must be careful not to fall into the trap of classifying people a la DSM-IV (in itself a highly political work).
Quote from: Bryce2009 on April 19, 2009, 04:38:39 PM
I actually forgot the point I was going to make and am off on a tangent maybe...
;D
Quote from: imaz on April 20, 2009, 03:23:12 AM
These topics are a never ending circle. At the end of the day does it really matter what one is?
Surely the important thing is the person's mental and physical health and how they interact with those around them.
I'm 56 and as the years go by and the more I think about it, the more all this becomes irrelevant. In general people's thinking is heavily influenced by social mores, political stance and peer groups... One must be careful not to fall into the trap of classifying people a la DSM-IV (in itself a highly political work).
I agree. The point is to be who you are comfortable being within the surrounding structure of society. This is a lot harder if the structure doesn't have a place already made for you, but at some level it is what each of us does, trans or cis, gay or straight, etc. What you call yourself or how you identify yourself to others is part of the process of trying to find a comfortable fit. Some of us need to make our own space, others just need to move to another space in the structure, and still others adapt to where they are.
Be who you are.
- Kate
The following is quoted from Claire Danes' character "Angela Chase" in the 1994 TV series "My So-Called Life" episode entitled, "Pressure". I think it sort of fits in. (Seems the best shows always get canceled... I'm such a product of pop culture, sheesh)
Quote from: Angela Chase"People always say how you should be yourself, like yourself is this definite thing, like a toaster, or something. Like you can know what it is even. But every so often I'll have like, a moment, when just being myself, in my life, right where I am is like, enough."
Hmmm Lots to ponder! Why do we used definitions? If not we'd have no frame of reference. Does one title cover all? No, that is why though we started with male and female we have added cross dresser, transgendered, transsexual, preop-postop, Trans man, Trans woman, She male and (my own) Male Lesbian. Someday I hope to be able to drop the male portion. But however we define ourselves and others we can be proud of who and what we are. Or we can let the rest of the world use those terms as derogatory insults. I am old enough to remember that if you wore womens clothes you were a drag queen and turned tricks in back alleys in the red light district. Today yes we still have prostitutes that dress in drag. But I have seen lots of good entertainers that are above moral reproach gay or straight. I say define yourself and be proud of who you are (now) and where you came from. As the current saying is "You go girl" or "You go guy" if your a trans man.
i think its a good thing, people used to be scared to admit they were gay because it wasn't accepted. i hope that we are just moving in a positive direction and transgenders that never felt comfortable before are starting to feel more accepted. maybe I'm wrong, but i hope that the recent growth in transgenders in just people feeling accepted...But...i agree that life isn't so black and white, maybe we need to sit back and think about the labels that some of us are throwing at ourselves. life shouldn't be about labels...
Agreed, but then again strategic essentialism (a group of people taking one identity to further their cause) definitely has a place in the trans community right now. It's a fine line...