Those who are female and also not afraid of being transgendered

[Miniar]

Being Trans doesn't make you less of a woman, it only means your body wasn't female from birth.

[Zelane]

I agree. Its just I dont like the transgender label because its a too broad label.

In the end, you can call me whatever you want :p

(I dont use most of the labels around here)

[Miniar]

The point is ofcourse is that nothing you ever do will change what you were at birth, and sometimes those that deny any reference to anything other than their chosen gender come off as if they are denying what they were at birth, denying their childhood and all the things that happened within it that helped forge who they are today, as well as denying their own transition and all the challenges they met there that helped forge who they are today.
As such (to me at least) they come of as if they are denying a large portion of what has made them who they are today, where as I would think anyone who'd face true hardship and overcome it should take pride in the strength they've shown through that, at least.

[Blanche]

I haven't forgotten what I'm.  I've always been a woman. female born by brain sex.

[Miniar]

Thats the difference.  You see yourself as something else other than the gender you identify as.  You'r re one of those peeps that think that genetics & chromosomes make you..lol. You believe you're "different" than other men, not a man, but something "like a man".

Is that what I said? No.
I don't believe chromosomes make the man, but I will not live in denial of my birth, youth, and what I have gone through to become on the outside what I've always been on the inside.
You seem to think that anything trans mean you're "not" male or female, which is not what I've been saying. It is exactly the opposite of what I've been saying.
Just because you're trans doesn't mean you're less of a woman, all it means is that you had to work hard to get to be the woman in the flesh that you've always been within yourself. That hard work is a part of who you are. It's formed you, changed you, made you into someone you would not have become if you hadn't needed to go through it. If you love who you are right now, you should embrace the path you've walked. That is all.
Do not put words in my mouth.

I haven't forgotten what I'm.  I've always been a woman. female born by brain sex.  See I'm not "denying" anything, I'm actually ADMITTING it.  That's what I meant by "agenda" on my other post.

Am I telling you not to call yourself a woman?
Have I, or anyone, insinuated that TG/TS and Woman are mutually exclusive?
No.
Again, Do not put words in my mouth.

[Zelane]

The point is ofcourse is that nothing you ever do will change what you were at birth, and sometimes those that deny any reference to anything other than their chosen gender come off as if they are denying what they were at birth, denying their childhood and all the things that happened within it that helped forge who they are today, as well as denying their own transition and all the challenges they met there that helped forge who they are today.

Yes, past its past no point denying it or wishing over and over it could be changed. As sad as past could be. The best its to accept it and move on.

Ah but precisely to me the part where I dont use some labels its because they dont fully represent me. Given that I dont like lies I opted to not use them on me because part of them are inexact (but no point moving the topic beyond)

[Blanche]

That hard work is a part of who you are. It's formed you, changed you, made you into someone you would not have become if you hadn't needed to go through it. If you love who you are right now, you should embrace the path you've walked. That is all.

You seem to embrace your "difference" & I praise you for that but that's not what most of us here think about ourselves. We've always been what we are, women by birth, brain sex again.

[Miniar]

I repeat your words.."don't put words in my mouth or anyone else's" 

That's the thing, I've not put words in your mouth, only gone by what you've had to say.

That's what you believe for yourself, it isn't what it's for anyone born the wrong sex.

"anyone" here would imply that if I do believe this for myself then I was "not" born the wrong sex, which I take significant offense with.
Just because people don't agree with you on this doesn't mean they weren't born in the wrong sex.

Again, you seem to embrace your "difference" & I praise you for that but that's not what most of us here think about ourselves. We've always been what we are, women by birth, brain sex again. I recommend the lessons & blogs on the Science board for future reference..

The point I'm making is something you yourself just referred to: "born the wrong sex"

you're a newbie, aint you?

Just because I disagree with you doesn't make me a newbie.
Try to be civil next time you feel the need to argue with what I have said and don't sink to the level of yelling "agenda" and putting words in my mouth.
Thank you.

[Blanche]

It seems you're new at this.

[Miniar]

Yup you're a newbie, no question about it & I don't mean that as an insult but as what it is, the truth.  "born the wrong sex" as in body not as in brain sex.  Get it? that's the key of it all.  I don't care if you agree or disagree with me.  Believe me.  I could care less. I'm here to educate people.  Some people want to be educated & others just want to follow their own agenda.  Seems to me that the latter's true for you.  Don't mean to be mean but your posts speak for themselves.  You believe you're "different" than other men.  that speaks for itself.

What is your definition of "newbie" then?
Someone new to the forum? (Been here a little while, don't feel new to 'em anymore.)
Someone with a less than x post-count?
Someone who disagrees with you?

I meant "born the wrong sex" as body, not brain, same as you. It's not that hard to get.

I know and accept that I "am" different than other men in that I was born a woman and nothing that I do will ever change that.
"Different" however does not mean lesser, or less real, or less genuine. I am a man, same as any other man, and I have always been one and will always be one, only I wasn't born with the right equipment.

No two people are "excactly" the same. No one is "the same" as all other men. We are all unique. This is part of how I am.

I also think for myself.
I don't impose my beliefs on other people.

I don't tell people that if they disagree with me then they're wrong, or lesser people.

All I did was state an opinion.
You are the one making it into an agenda.

I would think that "being here to educate people" and then stating that people who disagree with you on a matter of opinion are fundamentally wrong seems more like imposing one's own opinions on people which in and of itself is more of an agenda than simply standing up for one's opinions even when someone tells you you're wrong simply because they disagree.

I don't mean to be mean either. I do my best to keep to the topic, be direct and honest and explain what I mean. I don't allow my emotions to control my words and stick to what I mean.
This post, and every post I make, are written in a calm and composed manner.

Also, if you don't care whether or not I agree then why argue and call "agenda"?

[Nero]

I repeat your words.."don't put words in my mouth or anyone else's"  That's what you believe for yourself, it isn't what it's for anyone born the wrong sex.  Again, you seem to embrace your "difference" & I praise you for that but that's not what most of us here think about ourselves. We've always been what we are, women by birth, brain sex again. I recommend the lessons & blogs on the Science board for future reference..you're a newbie, aint you?

I think this is just semantics. Miniar doesn't seem to be saying he isn't a man by birth, but that he recognizes the path he walked.

[TamTam]

Okay.  I would like to step in here and remind everyone about this particular rule:

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

If this discussion continues along the track of using petty insults to discredit other people's opinions, it will be locked.  Everyone has the right to believe what they believe, and it is not a sign of being a 'newbie' or being 'less educated,' it is a sign of being an individual.

Now, can we please agree to disagree and move on a bit?

[Zelane]

You forgot intersex.

[TamTam]

And androgynous.

I tend to think there's more than four or six or ten levels, anyway.  Why not a fluid continuum?  That way everyone is encompassed, instead of trying to chop off rough corners of their being to fit into rigidly-defined definitions.

[Just Kate]

I would think that "being here to educate people" and then stating that people who disagree with you on a matter of opinion are fundamentally wrong seems more like imposing one's own opinions on people which in and of itself is more of an agenda than simply standing up for one's opinions even when someone tells you you're wrong simply because they disagree.

Word.  I've always appreciated your posts Miniar.  If someone needs someone to rail against for having an agenda, they can rail against me.  I do have an agenda - to seek the welfare of my transgendered brothers and sisters.  Specifically in finding a way for them to find peace without transition - to have an option other than transition.  I'm not ashamed of this agenda nor it is divisive.

[K8]

I think we are born with a gender, which doesn't necessarily match the anatomical sex we are born with.  The body can be intersexed or male or female (or...).  The gender can be any of those and perhaps more.

I was born as a little girl, but the extra stuff I had gave everyone the visual cues that I was a boy.  I tried to be a boy to please them but somehow knew I was really a girl.

Our past forms us.  If I succeed in becoming the woman I always wanted to be, I will still have a history that has formed me.  I grew up in a certain neighborhood where I worked as a paperboy and got beat up and robbed.  That formed me.  I went to college and got drafted into the Army.  That formed me.  I lived on a ship for five years, sailing the high seas.  That formed me.  I expect that my time trying to live as a man has formed me, too. 

We each deal with our past in our own ways.  I think I will always think of myself as trans because my life as an ersatz man, trying to deny that I should be a woman, and the work to transition to being whole will have formed me.

Each of us chooses how to deal with life in different ways because we have all followed different paths to where we are now.

May each of us find peace and love on our journeys,

- Kate

[glendagladwitch]

The new topic name RUBS me in the wrong way.

Old: People who WANT to be a transgender and not female? - Not properly worded it seems. But talks about that some transgender persons dont want/use/etc the identification as female. Happens and it brings a lot of questions.

New: Those who are female and also not afraid of being transgendered - Its like you are saying rejecting the TG label its wrong. I call BS on this one.

Seems to me the number of MTFs who think any MTF who identifies as transgendered does not properly and completely identify as a woman FAR outways the number of MTFs who identify as a "third sex" and not at all as women.  And I think the former is what the original topic brought to mind for practically everyone who read it.

[imaz]

These topics are a never ending circle. At the end of the day does it really matter what one is?

Surely the important thing is the person's mental and physical health and how they interact with those around them.

I'm 56 and as the years go by and the more I think about it, the more all this becomes irrelevant. In general people's thinking is heavily influenced by social mores, political stance and peer groups... One must be careful not to fall into the trap of classifying people a la DSM-IV (in itself a highly political work).

[K8]

I actually forgot the point I was going to make and am off on a tangent maybe... 

These topics are a never ending circle. At the end of the day does it really matter what one is?

Surely the important thing is the person's mental and physical health and how they interact with those around them.

I'm 56 and as the years go by and the more I think about it, the more all this becomes irrelevant. In general people's thinking is heavily influenced by social mores, political stance and peer groups... One must be careful not to fall into the trap of classifying people a la DSM-IV (in itself a highly political work).

I agree.  The point is to be who you are comfortable being within the surrounding structure of society.  This is a lot harder if the structure doesn't have a place already made for you, but at some level it is what each of us does, trans or cis, gay or straight, etc.  What you call yourself or how you identify yourself to others is part of the process of trying to find a comfortable fit.  Some of us need to make our own space, others just need to move to another space in the structure, and still others adapt to where they are.

Be who you are.

- Kate

[FairyGirl]

The following is quoted from Claire Danes' character "Angela Chase" in the 1994 TV series "My So-Called Life" episode entitled, "Pressure". I think it sort of fits in. (Seems the best shows always get canceled... I'm such a product of pop culture, sheesh)

"People always say how you should be yourself, like yourself is this definite thing, like a toaster, or something. Like you can know what it is even. But every so often I'll have like, a moment, when just being myself, in my life, right where I am is like, enough."