I've tried to find some info on the internet and on this site, but I haven't come up with anything.
I'm a born female, and my SO is a soon to be starting transition, MTF transgender. We would like to get married some day, but I don't know if that would fall under "same sex marriage" since we will both be female (SO plans on having birth certificate changed to female) or if since we were born opposite sexes, would we be legally allowed to marry? OR, if we get married before the birth certificate is legally changed (which I'm assuming would be legal since we would be opposite sex in the eyes of the law, right?) would the marriage be void once the birth certificate IS changed?
TIA and I hope this hasn't been asked before, but I couldn't find it.
As far as I know, as soon as your SO is legally female, the marriage will be void/unable to be performed. :-\ Unless you get married in one of the four states that allow it and/or move to a state that at least recognizes same sex marriages.
Hi
I think it depends on which country, and in the USA even which state you are in. In Australia the couple are automatically divorced, even if they have no wish to, when the new birt certificate is given. The arguement for is that same sex marriges are not recognised. There is at least one couple I know who have gone through this and she is refusing the new birth certificate because she wishes to stay with her wife. A horrible mean and nasty situation created and maintained by people who have no compassion.
A number of us are trying to lobby Parliment to change this law. And to change the discrimination between same sex marrige generally.
I suggest you consult legal opinion.
Hope it all works out.
Even if you cannot remain married in the eye of the law. Who cares, you love each other and that's what matters.
Love and Hugs
Cindy James
Thanks! (even though that isn't the answer I was hoping to get >:( ) and WOW you all are fast! I know it doesn't really matter if you're married or not, you can be just as much, or MORE in love and just not be married, but it's a basic human right! I want my rights as an american! :P
I know what you mean and :-*
You don't want these rights as an American. WE need these rights as human beings.
Think what it must be like in fundamentalist socities, as in Southern USA and in other countries.
Tolerance and love tend to be seen in the "odd" groups. I feel for example totally safe going to Gay clubs, I'm not Gay. I am totally frightend of straight clubs. I pass pretty well, and the females accept me, but if a "male" finds out I'm subject to insults, and worse. By something that has the IQ of what it is drinking.
LoL
Cindy James
Quote from: CindyJames on April 19, 2009, 03:53:45 AM
I know what you mean and :-*
You don't want these rights as an American. WE need these rights as human beings.
Yeah, exactly! I just don't get it! I was thinking about this earlier, if two irresponsible people conceive a child together from being stupid, and get married 'because it's best for the child' or 'the right thing to do' even though they don't have feelings for each other, I don't know why 2 people who are deeply in love can't have the same. It's just not right! >:(
</soapbox>
There is a reason marriage is called an institution. But anyone that wants to go for it...please do :laugh:
Last year Hypatia and I went to an LGBT conference here in VA. One of the breakout groups was about marriage equality. A lawyer from DC spoke, and this very question was brought up. He said there hasn't really been a firm ruling about this one way or the other in the US. (I think it's kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of thing.)
I know couples who are still legally married after one transitioned. It might be worth a try for you to get married before she transitions. Unfortunately, Hypatia and I won't be able to do this. :-\
My understanding, is that (in the US at least) if you are married prior to transition, then you are still married after. If you want to get married after your partner transitions, then you'll need to be in one of the states that recognizes same-sex marriages. I did hear of one case however, where the couple had to have an annulment. Why I have no clue (especially because annulments are religious not legal.)
It gets interesting because of taxes too - the federal gov't has issues with married filing joint and both parties have an F (or Ms).
I'm hopeful that the more states that recognize same-sex marriages and the longer the laws stick around, the more people will all of a sudden realize that gee this did squat to me and soon they will just be ignored. Maybe by that time, the feds will have caught up :P
WR
ooh! Thanks! hopefully we can find a way to make this happen! Either way, I'm persistent and I'm not going down without a fight! :P
Quote from: Windrider on April 19, 2009, 11:14:56 AM
It gets interesting because of taxes too - the federal gov't has issues with married filing joint and both parties have an F (or Ms).
Whoa. I've never heard of this before. Have you any more information, Windrider? 'Cause I'm thinking about changing my sex markers this year, and it's possible that my partner and I will remain together. We are legally married now. After I change my sex markers, we will both be legally male.
This kind of weird pitfall is one reason I wasn't going to change my sex markers originally. If my partner and I do stay together, I can envision future problems with marriage validity, health and life insurance, Social Security, hospital visitation, and life-and-death decisions like what to do if one of us ever winds up in a coma. The marriage validity issue hasn't gone through the courts yet, so it could go either way when it does.
So if you have more info about the feds and filing joint taxes when both filers have the same legal gender, I would appreciate hearing about anything you know.
Hypatia was able to jointly file her taxes with her wife for last year after she had changed her gender marker. Her SSN has her new name and gender; however, when the refund check came, it had her old name on it. It might have just been a system glitch that allowed the taxes to go through.
Some companies will allow you to carry a same-sex partner on health insurance. You can name anyone on your life insurance, so I think that would be okay, too. The rest...at least there are five places you can go to now to have legal rights.
Quote from: Starr on April 19, 2009, 07:03:03 PM
Hypatia was able to jointly file her taxes with her wife for last year after she had changed her gender marker. Her SSN has her new name and gender; however, when the refund check came, it had her old name on it. It might have just been a system glitch that allowed the taxes to go through.
Some companies will allow you to carry a same-sex partner on health insurance. You can name anyone on your life insurance, so I think that would be okay, too. The rest...at least there are five places you can go to now to have legal rights.
I changed my name a long time ago, so I won't be getting any checks with my old name. I don't know whether the M/M thing is a nonissue with the feds.
If I stay with my partner, my health insurance is covered through his job. But I do worry that if I change my gender marker, the insurance company might be able to make trouble for me.
Plus, when I change my gender marker, I've outed myself to my HMO as trans. I've heard of insurance companies who refused all sorts of procedures because of the insured's trans status, even things that don't seem to have anything to do with transsexuality. Don't know how many of these stories are urban myths or how many of them happened in "less enlightened" times, like ten years ago...are things better or worse now?
Gug. My head hurts.
Quote from: Arch on April 19, 2009, 07:44:43 PM
I changed my name a long time ago, so I won't be getting any checks with my old name. I don't know whether the M/M thing is a nonissue with the feds.
If I stay with my partner, my health insurance is covered through his job. But I do worry that if I change my gender marker, the insurance company might be able to make trouble for me.
Plus, when I change my gender marker, I've outed myself to my HMO as trans. I've heard of insurance companies who refused all sorts of procedures because of the insured's trans status, even things that don't seem to have anything to do with transsexuality. Don't know how many of these stories are urban myths or how many of them happened in "less enlightened" times, like ten years ago...are things better or worse now?
Gug. My head hurts.
Hypatia changed her name a year and a half ago. Have you and your partner filed a joint tax return since you changed your name? Since you don't have to list your gender on your tax form, I think the only thing that would flag it to the IRS would be the name, and they might not even notice that. Your gender marker doesn't show up even on those reports the SSA sends to tell you what you'll be making when you retire, so it might be a non-issue just because it doesn't show up.
I've never heard of insurance companies doing that one way or the other. I have a pretty lenient HMO right now, but I don't know what will happen if I put Hyptatia on my policy. She hasn't had any treatment discrimination from insurance, but she definitely has from doctors, so that's another potential problem. At least that stupid law about doctors being able to refuse treatment based on their "beliefs" has been removed, but you can't legislate attitude. :-\
Quote from: Starr on April 19, 2009, 08:13:35 PM
Have you and your partner filed a joint tax return since you changed your name? Since you don't have to list your gender on your tax form, I think the only thing that would flag it to the IRS would be the name, and they might not even notice that.
Yeah, I changed my name years ago, and my current (male) name is the only one I've ever used while we've been legally married. We've also filed jointly every year that we've been married. No problems there.
Anyway, I was thinking that colormyworld should seriously consider getting married now, before her partner changes gender markers. At the moment, this looks like their best option. There's no telling how long it will take to iron out all of the legal issues with same-sex marriage. So, why wait? Do it before transition!
Quote from: Arch on April 19, 2009, 08:18:42 PM
Yeah, I changed my name years ago, and my current (male) name is the only one I've ever used while we've been legally married. We've also filed jointly every year that we've been married. No problems there.
Anyway, I was thinking that colormyworld should seriously consider getting married now, before her partner changes gender markers. At the moment, this looks like their best option. There's no telling how long it will take to iron out all of the legal issues with same-sex marriage. So, why wait? Do it before transition!
Yeah, take advantage of any loopholes while you can. ;) Hypatia and I will have to pack up and move to another state to get married. >:( So those who can, please go for it!!
Good to know that there might be a chance still! Neither of us want a big wedding, and I might have been thinking about this for quite awhile :eusa_whistle: and planning what ifs.. :P so this could be doable before we're 'legally' opposite sex.
And thanks to everyone for all your replies, I can't get over how friendly and quick at answering questions, you all are!
Good question, and I think it applies to me as well, in some way.... My wife and I were married 2 1/2 years ago, when she (mtf) was legally male and I (ftm) was legally female. She has since legally changed her name, though not her gender... but in Arkansas, where she was born, she does in fact have the option of changing her gender on her birth certificate, and as far as I'm aware, that's what she intends to do.
I, on the other hand, will never be considered legally male... not unless the laws change. I was born in Ohio, one of only 3 or 4 states in the U.S. that will not change gender on birth certificates. Suppose I can only hope that when and if my wife changes hers, the wonderful US of A doesn't nullify our nuptials.
SD
Colormyworld, you might think about one more thing. I got married in California before gay marriage was briefly legalized and before the marriage forms (at least in some cities) got rid of the gender-specific terms "husband" and "wife."
Now I wish I had waited. I was so humiliated at being designated the wife when I just wanted to be a spouse. It still burns me up, years later. So much that I've considered getting divorced and then getting remarried just so I can fill out a new form. I guess I get hung up on the weirdest things.
But if that sort of thing matters to you--or if you can foresee a time post-transition that it might make a difference--you can consider getting married in a state that does have gay marriage or in a location that has no gender-specific markers on the form you fill out.
Quote from: Sebastien on April 19, 2009, 08:55:58 PM
Good question, and I think it applies to me as well, in some way.... My wife and I were married 2 1/2 years ago, when she (mtf) was legally male and I (ftm) was legally female. She has since legally changed her name, though not her gender... but in Arkansas, where she was born, she does in fact have the option of changing her gender on her birth certificate, and as far as I'm aware, that's what she intends to do.
I, on the other hand, will never be considered legally male... not unless the laws change. I was born in Ohio, one of only 3 or 4 states in the U.S. that will not change gender on birth certificates. Suppose I can only hope that when and if my wife changes hers, the wonderful US of A doesn't nullify our nuptials.
SD
I don't know how someone could be like "Well you can't be married now" You're still the same people who were legally married before and nobody had a problem with it!
Stupid Ohio! (That's where I'm from, too. SO is from Oklahoma) I hope one day you can have your birth certificate reflect who you really are, but if Ohio wants to stay closed minded and not allow that, try not to let it get you down! It's never going to affect the way you feel inside, and that's all that really matters!
Quote from: Sebastien on April 19, 2009, 08:55:58 PM
I, on the other hand, will never be considered legally male... not unless the laws change. I was born in Ohio, one of only 3 or 4 states in the U.S. that will not change gender on birth certificates. Suppose I can only hope that when and if my wife changes hers, the wonderful US of A doesn't nullify our nuptials.
Sebastien, if you change your gender markers with your state of residence and with the Social Security Administration, won't you be considered legally male for all intents and purposes?
My birth state won't change the birth certificate, either. All I can do is get some kind of card that is affixed to the birth certificate. And I would have to jump through some serious legal hoops just to do that. So it's not worth it to me.
Quote from: Arch on April 19, 2009, 08:57:17 PM
Colormyworld, you might think about one more thing. I got married in California before gay marriage was briefly legalized and before the marriage forms (at least in some cities) got rid of the gender-specific terms "husband" and "wife."
Now I wish I had waited. I was so humiliated at being designated the wife when I just wanted to be a spouse. It still burns me up, years later. So much that I've considered getting divorced and then getting remarried just so I can fill out a new form. I guess I get hung up on the weirdest things.
But if that sort of thing matters to you--or if you can foresee a time post-transition that it might make a difference--you can consider getting married in a state that does have gay marriage or in a location that has no gender-specific markers on the form you fill out.
I know it doesn't bother me either way, but it might matter to SO. I'm still going to call her my WIFE no matter what, and nobody can stop me from referring to her that way!
This will be something that we'll have to look into a bit though!
For Arch (and other US folks): The federal government does NOT recognize ANY same-sex marriage, even if it is done in a state that recognizes it. There is no such thing as 'married filing jointly' in the eyes of the federal gov't. Hence, same-sex couples pay more taxes, and are *denied* the benefits of hetero couples...and there are a lot.
I found a website called www.freedomtomarry.org (//http://) that seemed to have a lot of info on the matter. I also found a book called "A Legal Guide for Gay and Lesbian Couples" by attorneys Denis Clifford, Frederick Hertz, and Emily Doskow which covers some of the hurdles trans couples will have.
I won't pretend I've read everything out there, but what I have read does make me angry that just because my spouse is also female, I am now somehow less of a person.
WR
Post Merge: April 19, 2009, 10:43:00 PM
Oh, I forgot to mention the blog from the Miami South Herald that I found as well. The blog is by Steve Rothaus and is titled "Married gay couples, others to protest U.S. tax policy during Boston Tea Party reenactment."
There is also http://www.jointheimpactma.com/taxday (http://www.jointheimpactma.com/taxday)
I clickied 'post' too soon :P
WR
I think anyone and everyone of legal age who wishes to be married should be able to do so.
I just can't wrap my mind around why anyone would need a legal document just to show their devotion to another
Sure there are tax benefits to be had
But wouldn't you love that person the same regardless?
Are we talking about loving another person or the love of money?
Quote from: Virginia Marie on April 19, 2009, 11:48:06 PM
I think anyone and everyone of legal age who wishes to be married should be able to do so.
I just can't wrap my mind around why anyone would need a legal document just to show their devotion to another
Sure there are tax benefits to be had
But wouldn't you love that person the same regardless?
Are we talking about loving another person or the love of money?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I have to say that the legal benefits of marriage go way beyond a tax break. For instance, if I wind up in a coma, there is no EFFING way I would ever want my blood relations to decide what happens to me. Yet even healthcare proxy and power of attorney arrangements can be reversed by family members who are very determined. A legal marriage, on the other hand, allows my partner to make decisions about my life if I should be unable to.
For my part, I didn't get married to show my devotion to my partner. We were together for many years before we legally tied the knot. I got married for certain legal benefits, but I would never have done it if I weren't in love with my partner.
That explains thing quite a bit better. True Love and Benefits
I guess the idea of marriage to anyone just scares the stuff out of me
Truly, the thought of my blood relatives making decisions for me is even scarier :laugh:
As Arch noted, there are over 1,000 benefits that hetero married couples have, that are denied to same sex couples. This is why the *federal* marriage laws need to be changed. I'm not saying the state laws are bad, here, just not enough. But then, if enough states change their laws, the federal gov't may fall in line. It's tough to say at this stage.
Right now, we've got a whole boatload of FUD** being pumped out there by various religious and political organizations causing problems. It's keeping the "horror" alive for the "normal" people, which is causing resistance to legal changes.
That's why I think if enough states change the laws, and after the initial press dies down, most people will realize that marriage equality really didn't affect them and then (hopefully) future legal changes will not be such an issue.
WR
**FUD - stands for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Generally means promoting emotionally charged statements to cause a strong reaction.
For me, it's not even the legal benefits, although those are a huge part of it. It's the principle. Why shouldn't I be able to legally do all the things straight people do, including get married if I wish? If that right is denied to me, then I am a second-class citizen. And 'accepting' civil unions makes me separate-but-equal. Marriage can be performed by city hall; it doesn't have to have any religious connotation at all, yet it's being kept from us for religious and bigoted reasons. I don't appreciate other people's religion being forced on me.
Quote from: CindyJames on April 19, 2009, 02:43:15 AM
Hi
I think it depends on which country, and in the USA even which state you are in. In Australia the couple are automatically divorced, even if they have no wish to, when the new birt certificate is given. The arguement for is that same sex marriges are not recognised. There is at least one couple I know who have gone through this and she is refusing the new birth certificate because she wishes to stay with her wife. A horrible mean and nasty situation created and maintained by people who have no compassion.
A number of us are trying to lobby Parliment to change this law. And to change the discrimination between same sex marrige generally.
I suggest you consult legal opinion.
Hope it all works out.
Even if you cannot remain married in the eye of the law. Who cares, you love each other and that's what matters.
Love and Hugs
Cindy James
Hi Cindy :icon_wave:
I've been researching this, and read that if you share a household in Australia for a certain amount of time and/or can prove that your lives are together then you are defacto married for all intents and purposes, regardless of gender or paperwork. My SO is an Australian citizen and we are in fact going to use that to get my permanent residence visa so I can stay there more than 3 months at a time.
This from the Aussie immigration website:
"The Australian Government has introduced changes to remove discrimination against same-sex couples and their children from Commonwealth law."
This is for defacto relationships only however, you are correct that Australia does not recognize same sex marriage other than that. Still, it seems from reading on the government site that defacto marriage (known as 'interdependent relationship') carries most of the same benefits as any other marriage. More info here (I got permission from Emelye to post these links):
http://www.ag.gov.au/samesexreform (http://www.ag.gov.au/samesexreform)
and here for purposes of immigration:
http://www.immi.gov.au/legislation/key-changes/2009/same-sex-relationships.htm (http://www.immi.gov.au/legislation/key-changes/2009/same-sex-relationships.htm)
all in all it does seem to be a bit more accommodating for same-sex couples over there than in the US, who afaik doesn't even recognize civil unions on a federal level. What TamTam said about being "second class citizens" still seems to be true no matter where you go. :-\
Quote from: TamTam on April 20, 2009, 09:28:42 AM
For me, it's not even the legal benefits, although those are a huge part of it. It's the principle. Why shouldn't I be able to legally do all the things straight people do, including get married if I wish? If that right is denied to me, then I am a second-class citizen. And 'accepting' civil unions makes me separate-but-equal. Marriage can be performed by city hall; it doesn't have to have any religious connotation at all, yet it's being kept from us for religious and bigoted reasons. I don't appreciate other people's religion being forced on me.
EXACTLY! Of course there are benefits, but just being able to say "This is my WIFE" and have it be 100% official, it's just a good feeling! If some people are allowed to get married, and others not, that's discrimination!
If you're so against same sex marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex, don't attend a same sex wedding, I don't care what you do or don't do in your personal life, but DON'T stop us from doing what we rightfully should be allowed to do!
Quote from: Starr on April 19, 2009, 08:13:35 PMShe hasn't had any treatment discrimination from insurance
Actually, I have. The Anthem policy I had the last time I had health coverage has a clause specifically disallowing anything related to transgender. Bastards. So I simply bypassed insurance altogether, I buy my hormones from the Whitman-Walker Clinic pharmacy because they give their patients great discounts. I could not afford to buy hormones at a regular pharmacy with no insurance. I'm very grateful for the WWC.
I live in Iceland.
My marriage to my husband is "secure" even if I change all gender markers that are attached to me and same sex couples can file their taxes together even if they're not married without having to jump through hoops.
Quote from: Starr on April 19, 2009, 08:13:35 PM
She hasn't had any treatment discrimination from insurance
Quote from: Hypatia on April 21, 2009, 12:05:41 AM
Actually, I have. The Anthem policy I had the last time I had health coverage has a clause specifically disallowing anything related to transgender. Bastards. So I simply bypassed insurance altogether
Unfortunately, I don't think that will change anytime soon. The way things went in your situation with having to get that other insurance, I guess it's kind of hard to tell if either would have had a problem with authorizing routine health care (non-TG related). Like if the first one would have allowed you to have your mammogram. The second insurance was so useless, it's hard to say with that one.