Hehe!
I confess I enjoy being transgender, I like the transgressive, in between areas of life and to be perfectly frank I love it when people fancy me because of how I am.
Ok, this isn't PC for some as one mustn't enjoy the sexual side of things because of all that BS from Blanchard, Bailey and their fellow zombies, but I do. Nothing to be ashamed of surely? It's perfectly normal for everyone else, so why not for us?
Would I take being a normal cisgendered woman or man over who I am? No, I wouldn't, not least because I consider it a great blessing to be the way I am in that it has forced me to open my eyes and heart to the World and it's people and taken me to places I could only dream of. Alhamdulillah :)
I have to disagree. I didn't spend time and money overhauling my life to forever be 'lesser' or 'other' than my cisgendered counterparts. Outside of my physician, my girlfriend and my parents, I am not known otherwise. I'd prefer to pass undetected than to be recognized and respected.
Quote from: imaz on April 22, 2009, 06:15:50 PM
Hehe!
I confess I enjoy being transgender, I like the transgressive, in between areas of life and to be perfectly frank I love it when people fancy me because of how I am.
Ok, this isn't PC for some as one mustn't enjoy the sexual side of things because of all that BS from Blanchard, Bailey and their fellow zombies, but I do. Nothing to be ashamed of surely? It's perfectly normal for everyone else, so why not for us?
Would I take being a normal cisgendered woman or man over who I am? No, I wouldn't, not least because I consider it a great blessing to be the way I am in that it has forced me to open my eyes and heart to the World and it's people and taken me to places I could only dream of. Alhamdulillah :)
I agree with you! I like being somewhat in between. I still think of myself in male terms and I want to be addressed that way eventually. BUT I think there's something...mystical and mysterious about it. I like having a foot on both sides of the spectrum, so to speak. I think it has given me an interesting outlook on life and a better understanding of the world. I wouldn't trade it for anything (no matter what I say when I get frustrated ;)).
Quote from: Mister on April 22, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
I have to disagree. I didn't spend time and money overhauling my life to forever be 'lesser' or 'other' than my cisgendered counterparts. Outside of my physician, my girlfriend and my parents, I am not known otherwise. I'd prefer to pass undetected than to be recognized and respected.
Don't conflate 'lesser' with 'other' -- cisgender people are 'other' from other cisgender people as well. My dad is 'other' from my mom. Everyone is 'other'.
Personally I don't take pride in being 'trans' as a label, but I do take pride in the fact that it's possible to go from one to the other or somewhere in between. To me it's not so much about
identity as it is about
ability.
Quote from: Ketsy on April 22, 2009, 06:24:21 PM
Don't conflate 'lesser' with 'other' -- cisgender people are 'other' from other cisgender people as well. My dad is 'other' from my mom. Everyone is 'other'.
Personally I don't take pride in being 'trans' as a label, but I do take pride in the fact that it's possible to go from one to the other or somewhere in between. To me it's not so much about identity as it is about ability.
Good point with 'other.'
As for identity vs. ability- Do you mean ability as in, you had the available resources to transition or as in you take pride in the fact it's possible?
Quote from: Mister on April 22, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
I have to disagree. I didn't spend time and money overhauling my life to forever be 'lesser' or 'other' than my cisgendered counterparts. Outside of my physician, my girlfriend and my parents, I am not known otherwise. I'd prefer to pass undetected than to be recognized and respected.
There's a surprise! (probably means I'm right) ;D
Post Merge: April 22, 2009, 06:35:05 PM
Quote from: Jaimey on April 22, 2009, 06:23:13 PM
I agree with you! I like being somewhat in between. I still think of myself in male terms and I want to be addressed that way eventually. BUT I think there's something...mystical and mysterious about it. I like having a foot on both sides of the spectrum, so to speak. I think it has given me an interesting outlook on life and a better understanding of the world. I wouldn't trade it for anything (no matter what I say when I get frustrated ;)).
Thank you, for me it's magical, and quite frankly cool as **** ;D
I would not be who I am today if I was not TG.
I think things might be a little different for us non-binaries. If we are authentic to ourselves we probably don't have a defined place to fit in most societies. I take delight in gender queerness from the standpoint of it represents me, the me that is at odds with what is normal. It feels good. I too have a bit of a subversive side and do like challenging people's ideas of "the way things should be" or "what the natural way of things" is. It can be fun, but sometimes frustrating.
At the same time I find myself mourning that what seems as logical as breathing is viewed as alien and strange by the majority. What is 'normal' for me tends to be a fight against overwhelming odds. I also have some internalised phobias about being an "ugly ->-bleeped-<-" which eat at my self esteem.
All in all I don't consider myself superior but I get to transcend the male and female divide. I think this is marvellous. I don't know how I would feel if what I am became 'normal'. I don't think I would like it.
Quote from: imaz on April 22, 2009, 06:32:31 PM
Thank you, for me it's magical, and quite frankly cool as **** ;D
cool as ****. I like that. :laugh: I'm cool as ****.
Quote from: Nicky on April 22, 2009, 06:36:44 PM
I would not be who I am today if I was not TG.
I get to transcend the male and female divide. I think this is marvellous.
Nicely said. It's a very freeing thing.
*** High Fives my sister Nicky ***
*** and Jaimey ***
Quote from: Mister on April 22, 2009, 06:26:21 PM
Good point with 'other.'
As for identity vs. ability- Do you mean ability as in, you had the available resources to transition or as in you take pride in the fact it's possible?
That it's possible -- whether I will or will not have the resources depends on what my parents think when they find out :P. What I mean is more, I take pride in the fact that it's possible to make the change, rather than being proud in the state of needing to make the change/having needed to make the change. But that's just my personal view, not one I think anyone else needs to adopt :).
Sigh. I've never been "normal", so I wouldn't even know what that's like. My dysphoria has always been a source of great sadness for me, so while I certainly respect anyone's decision as regards to what they wish to be, male, female, or somewhere in between, for myself I would simply prefer to be female and be done with it. Interesting topic!
Quote from: imaz on April 22, 2009, 06:32:31 PM
There's a surprise! (probably means I'm right) ;D
I'm sorry?
Quote from: FairyGirl on April 22, 2009, 06:40:49 PM
Sigh. I've never been "normal", so I wouldn't even know what that's like. My dysphoria has always been a source of great sadness for me, so while I certainly respect anyone's decision as regards to what they wish to be, male, female, or somewhere in between, for myself I would simply prefer to be female and be done with it. Interesting topic!
Merci Mademoiselle :)
Post Merge: April 22, 2009, 06:42:49 PM
Quote from: Mister on April 22, 2009, 06:41:55 PM
I'm sorry?
No need to be sorry, why the guilt?
Quote from: imaz on April 22, 2009, 06:42:18 PM
Merci Mademoiselle :)
Post Merge: April 22, 2009, 06:42:49 PM
No need to be sorry, why the guilt?
I don't understand what you meant.
Quote from: Mister on April 22, 2009, 06:43:49 PM
I don't understand what you meant.
Fairly obvious if you just give it a little thought... An intelligent man like yourself, who thinks for himself as his own signature proudly states... :)
***highfivesback*** ...you make me giggle...heheh. :laugh: it did take me a second though...(so so very tired...I was up 23 hours yesterday working on papers)
Quote from: imaz on April 22, 2009, 06:47:34 PM
Fairly obvious if you just give it a little thought... An intelligent man like yourself, who thinks for himself as his own signature proudly states... :)
Oh yes, being cryptic is always so clear.
Quote from: Jaimey on April 22, 2009, 06:48:19 PM
***highfivesback*** ...you make me giggle...heheh. :laugh: it did take me a second though...(so so very tired...I was up 23 hours yesterday working on papers)
Thanks Jaimey, I'm fed up with everyone being so uptight and po-faced about all this gender business. Let's all just make the most of it and enjoy ourselves ;D
No point in being miserable when there are friends to be made, good times, laughs, and hopefully plenty of sex!
Post Merge: April 22, 2009, 06:54:06 PM
Quote from: Mister on April 22, 2009, 06:49:25 PM
Oh yes, being cryptic is always so clear.
Stop being so boring and ruining my thread...
Haven't you got anything else better to do?
Although being transsexual is not a bed of roses (duh), it has made me a better person in probably more ways than I can describe. It's made me more freethinking, independent, strong, open-minded, etc. Discovering this helped me to start questioning my beliefs and and society; realizing it was the cataclyst (I hope that's the right word) that started me on my journey of self-discovering. I also must admit I revel in being "other." If I was heterosexual and cisgendered, or maybe even just one of those, I'd feel too normal. My main regrets are a little bit of loss of experiences I would have liked to have (Boy Scouts, Men's Choir; overall, I think a male childhood would have more stifling) and body parts that will never be right, but that's a small price to pay for being a better person.
Nice one Adrian, respect :)
Quote from: imaz on April 22, 2009, 06:53:00 PM
Thanks Jaimey, I'm fed up with everyone being so uptight and po-faced about all this gender business. Let's all just make the most of it and enjoy ourselves ;D
No point in being miserable when there are friends to be made, good times, laughs, and hopefully plenty of sex!
Post Merge: April 22, 2009, 06:54:06 PM
Stop being so boring and ruining my thread...
Haven't you got anything else better to do?
I'm sorry if trying to get you to clarify yourself is too boring. Not exactly sure how I 'ruined' your thread since I replied to your topic.
Really, I kind of wonder what imaz meant, too. But it might be more fun to try to guess than to know.
Quote from: Mister on April 22, 2009, 07:05:58 PM
I'm sorry if trying to get you to clarify yourself is too boring. Not exactly sure how I 'ruined' your thread since I replied to your topic.
You really are boring me to death, no wonder you get into so much trouble here.
If I wasn't so sweet and feminine I tell you to go do one... but then you would probably ask me what I meant by that...
Why am I even bothering to reply to you?
In the interests of harmony it would be good if you two, Mister and Imaz just stop replying to each others posts. I like the topic. Would be a shame to have to stop it.
(actually I would like to know what you meant by the comment "probably means I'm right" Imaz....I'm a bit slow in the brain pan department, I'm assuming it was a little dig at Mister, if that is the case maybe just apologise. You don't have to like them, but their opinion was good and valid)
Thanks
Nicki
Sometimes things that make perfect sense in one's own head do not make sense in other people's heads; happens to me an embarassing amount.
I would like to be "normal" I have wanted it all my life. Being in the middle kind of annoys me. But I guess its just different.
Quote from: FairyGirl on April 22, 2009, 06:40:49 PM
Sigh. I've never been "normal", so I wouldn't even know what that's like.
So true. Last autumn, after some four decades, it finally dawned on me that cisgendered people really exist -- that apparently some people may in fact feel completely comfortable with the sex of their body. The next step, of course, was realising that I don't (or cannot) really imagine what that feels like. In that sense I haven't got a need to be 'normal', much as I'd prefer to have the kind of body my mind expects to have.
On the other hand, there are some aspects of being trans that I really like. Looking back, it's been a major reason why I've been able to make choices that go against traditional gender roles, and in a lot of ways it's been good to find my own way, although one result is that the 'I'm not really this and not quite that either' kind of identity crisis applies to much more than just my gender. All in all, though, I think it balances out; being this way is not inherently better or worse than being 'normal', but by now there are a few things that have happened in my past that I wouldn't trade.
Nfr
Quote from: Seshatneferw on April 23, 2009, 01:20:32 AM
So true. Last autumn, after some four decades, it finally dawned on me that cisgendered people really exist -- that apparently some people may in fact feel completely comfortable with the sex of their body. The next step, of course, was realising that I don't (or cannot) really imagine what that feels like. In that sense I haven't got a need to be 'normal', much as I'd prefer to have the kind of body my mind expects to have.
On the other hand, there are some aspects of being trans that I really like. Looking back, it's been a major reason why I've been able to make choices that go against traditional gender roles, and in a lot of ways it's been good to find my own way, although one result is that the 'I'm not really this and not quite that either' kind of identity crisis applies to much more than just my gender. All in all, though, I think it balances out; being this way is not inherently better or worse than being 'normal', but by now there are a few things that have happened in my past that I wouldn't trade.
Nfr
Indeed, as you say, in the end it all probably balances out.
Your point about how we are 'obliged" to make different choices in life, which subsequently take us down different paths to different places is a very interesting one. Personally, I think this is the hardest thing to accept when one is young, a time in which the pressure to conform is perhaps greatest.
When I talk to friends about my life they tell me how great it must have been to have lived "outside the box" although at the time all I wished for was a steady job and so-called normality. Only in the last few years have I really come to appreciate my situation, and the life it has made me lead. Without my gender situation I would never have been to the places I've been, made the friends I have, and have had, married the people I married, and even come back to Islam.
It's a very acquired taste to be TS/TG both for ourselves and others, but once one learns to appreciate it for what it is it can bring great happiness to oneself and those that surround us. I don't believe in taking it very seriously on a personal level anymore, no more guilt, shame etc. It's a blessing for what it teaches us, and while we may be a despised minority by many, we are also a sought after one by others. If I was a 56 year old straight or Gay man I doubt very much that I would have the interesting and wonderful friends I have, be able to pull the good looking girls and men that I can, and be married to my gorgeous wife. i simply would never have met her.
So let's all be positive and enjoy this wonderful chance to live an unusual life and make the most of it for what it is with gratitude and patience in our hearts.
My love and hugs to you all :)
-imaz-
I would rather be just plain normal as then I wouldn't had to go through all the surgery and the like.
I don't hate being trans. I am trans, I got over it a long time ago.
The only thing with being trans is like I said all the hurdles you have to go through.
So all in all I would rather be a bio-boy. :)
Jay
Fair enough :)
Damn
I wrote a big reply and hit the wrong button. Shows I'm female :D
Anyhow hi Imaz :-*. Hope you are OK. I'll PM you soon.
Interesting thread. I would not be what I am today, career wise etc if I was born a bio-female. I have been forged in a cruel cruicible. I can withstand many things that bio-males have problems with. I would love to be bio-female. I can never be that physically. I can be altered to look more like my brain gender but I can never function as I want to. I want(ed) to have babies, besides the fact I'm now too old I'll never get the equipment.
I do enjoy the reaction I make to
people. I mainly pass and am increasingly confident, and starting to not care when I don't.
I'm increasingly accepting myself and enjoying my uniqueness. And I think that's what you meant?
LoL
Cindy James
(and if this is not what you meant, I suppose I need a spank ;))
Hi Cindy, I'm fine thanks, just sitting waiting for the plumber for the second day in a row!
Yes, it was about enjoying and appreciating one's "uniqueness" that this thread was meant to be about. :)
So I don't get a spank?
Hate to think what's wrong with your plumbing if you need a guy for two days :D :D :D
Steady there girl!
This is a real plumber for better or worse with all the waiting, expense and bad workmanship that entails... The siphon in the cistern has died and now he's moaning that he cant find a replacement and it's all got to be replaced. :o
Not really into all that pain stuff to be honest, just like dressing up with my friends and having a crazy time with dancing and getting out of it >:-)
I know that, I'm definitlty never into pain. Just winding you up in a fun way ;)
I've had to have plumbers in Aus and they are sooo expensive. You can always tell them when the arrive, the mercedes stops and the chauffuer lets them out.
I hope you are flushed with success soon.
BTW it's raining for the first time since december.
Sorry this has got nothing to do with your thread :-* :-* :-*
Cindy
hi... Cindy .. yeap . not having your own womb is a hard one ... most women have one .. yet some cant have baby.s ... so yea we know what it.s like . some thing incommon with our sister.s .
...noeleena...
No worries :)
This plumber really does arrive in a Mercedes, a van but still a Mercedes :o
My answer to this is always the same:
1) Dr. Pangloss is wrong, whether in the guise of Leibniz or Aquinas or whoever our favorite optimist is. Felix culpa is bad theology. The tapestry of gendered experience and greater empathy for the struggles of others or whatever sugar-coating you choose, while real, doesn't make up for the hell that GID has caused in my life.
2) If "normal" means "normal male," then the question doesn't make sense. Struggling with GID is an experience. Being female is who I am. I can imagine a hypothetical life in which I have different experiences, but not in which I'm a different person entirely.
To be honest, for years I tried to "cure" myself of my gender, because it's what all the feedback I got from society told me. It took a while to figure out that society was wrong, and to realize how self-hating and self-destructive my attempts to "cure" myself were.
By and large, I am certain I would have had a happier and more fulfilled life had I been born and raised a girl.
Quote from: imaz on April 23, 2009, 05:46:17 AM
I don't believe in taking it very seriously on a personal level anymore, no more guilt, shame etc. It's a blessing for what it teaches us,
I'm really trying to overcome this part, because I think as soon as I do, I feel others will be more accepting. In my younger days I was always dancing with one foot on either side "normal", (my creedo
used to be always keep 'em wondering, maybe I should dust it off). It was wonderfully fun. But most of the people around me then did not seem to take me seriously about most things. I guess I didn't take myself serious enough either, or else I wouldn't have cared what they thought. I think I'm trying to say I wish I could feel normal about being TG. lol
But it's in threads such as these which I find encouragement, strength even, to got forth and just be me with out hangups about being me.
:icon_wave:
Thanks Kiera and Linda for your positivity. The idea behind this thread was to generate some happiness and positive thoughts around our situations, to create a safe and happy space for those of us who don't fall into a traditional binary model.
In all seriousness I believe that our own self acceptance and enjoyment of our difference is a giant step towards the acceptance of society at large.
Just a few hours ago I noticed that the young Chinese kid who lives in my little street has come out as apparently very gender different. He's only probably about 14 but he was wearing about 20 pink and yellow and bracelets and pink earings! It's great that he has the courage to do this in our neighbourhood and perhaps the significant LGBT presence in our street has helped him in this.
Lots of love to you all :)
Can we say "ordinary" instead of "normal"?
I'd rather have been born an ordinary female.
But I have to admit that I really did like playing football.
On the other hand, I may have enjoyed gymnastics even more. Or volleyball.
And I might like men, if I didn't have inside knowledge on what scum they are. Which, I guess is a push. If I didn't know what jerks they are, I might have married one.
So, for me, it's not even close. If I had one magic wish it would be to always have been female. I don't need to be trans to be special.
I believe I am perfectly normal. That is to say, that everything I am, believe, and represent are all within the boundaries of human potential, which means I'm "normal".
But would I love to wake up without the pain that the dysphoria causes. I would love to wake up in the morning, yawn and stretch and feel "in place" within my own skin. I would like to be able to look in the mirror and see something that doesn't make me wretch.
Regardless of whether that would mean I would be rid of the dysphoria alone or I'd wake up in a perfectly male body, I don't really care so much, because both would cause the same results. The release from what troubles me.
However, when I think about that, I realize that this too is a part of what makes me me. Would my partner love me if I weren't me? I don't know.
This is me, this is what I face, and I accept that this is "where" I am. From here though, I hope, Forward Motion!
I'm with you there Miniar!
Quote from: GinaDouglas on April 23, 2009, 03:54:40 PM
And I might like men, if I didn't have inside knowledge on what scum they are.
O, we really should get away from such generalized statements, I think. We have some rather remarkably nice and dignified males around here. We have a couple who are curmudgeonly but seem to have hearts of gold that they just don't always reveal openly! :)
I've known way more than just a few males who don't fit the categorization of "scum."
Gender as a play and as a life-long rehearsal that gets one to make command performances. Maybe there's a lot to that. If so, one would think she might find that her ways of performance are exclusive of others' ways of performance, enough so that she might conclude something is "scummy" when it's actually necessary for another to help them do that "command performance."
Plus, I get that "scummy" trait turned about a good deal from males, you know, "all women are scum."
I think a lot of the "scummy" aspects come through ways we rehearse our feelings and thoughts through the lenses of expected behavior and presentation. Sorta like "all femmes are just trying to attract the male gaze" etc.
I dunno, whata ya think?
Nichole
I would never judge anyone else but I have to say I would give just about anything to be "normal". I feel sad every waking moment that I am the way I am. I try so hard to put on a so called normal appearance that it is exhausting by the end of the day. So I guess I have to say being born a girl would of course be my first option if I had a choice.
Quote from: christine01803 on April 23, 2009, 05:57:04 PM
I would never judge anyone else but I have to say I would give just about anything to be "normal". I feel sad every waking moment that I am the way I am. I try so hard to put on a so called normal appearance that it is exhausting by the end of the day. So I guess I have to say being born a girl would of course be my first option if I had a choice.
So sorry to hear that Christine, I guess the problem could be that you
were born a girl, just not in the way that the majority understand it.
Take care :)
Quote from: Nichole on April 23, 2009, 05:04:42 PM
O, we really should get away from such generalized statements, I think. We have some rather remarkably nice and dignified males around here. We have a couple who are curmudgeonly but seem to have hearts of gold that they just don't always reveal openly! :)
I've known way more than just a few males who don't fit the categorization of "scum."
I dunno, whata ya think?
Many women say "All men are dogs." I think that's really offensive. To dogs.
Quote from: GinaDouglas on April 23, 2009, 06:09:51 PM
Many women say "All men are dogs." I think that's really offensive. To dogs.
So you really don't base your notions on any experience except the ways you feel you were conditioned to be male?
Nichole
Take it easy Gina. You are going way over the top...
I thought that was just an old joke. Perhaps they were not being serious here.
Quote from: Nichole on April 23, 2009, 05:04:42 PM
I think a lot of the "scummy" aspects come through ways we rehearse our feelings and thoughts through the lenses of expected behavior and presentation.
Also, we got a very close look at boys at just the time when they were trying to
learn how to be men. I know I'm generalising, perhaps a bit too much, but after puberty and early twenties I've sort of drifted away from the boys-only social occasions, so the strongest memories are still from such places as school gym or military barracks. Yes, the male mindset (if there is such a thing) is still somewhat alien to me, but from what I've seen adult men are not nearly as weird as boys desperately trying to grow up. I expect the same to apply to women vs. girls, I just didn't get that intensively immersive experience with female puberty and its aftermath.
Nfr
Quote from: Nichole on April 23, 2009, 06:11:58 PM
So you really don't base your notions on any experience except the ways you feel you were conditioned to be male?
No, my conclusions are based on the way men act, and what they say, when there are no women around. Primarily the way they talk about women, the way they talk about how they treat the women in their lives, the way they view women as inferior, and the contempt they have for qualities women value, such as honesty and fidelity. I've never known a man who wouldn't cheat on his wife if he could get away with it, and brag about it to his friends. And I've known alot of men.
I used to teach history, and I firmly believe that History is the record of 5000 years of stupid machismo mistakes, and the women who loved them anyway.
I thought I saw a survey recently that more women cheat on their husbands than men cheat on their wives.
OK nothing to do with the thread.
No, this came up in another discussion recently, and there are a number of surveys on this issue. They vary in the difference between men and women cheating, but all have men cheating more.
Also, I said that men would cheat on their wives if they could get away with it, not necessarily that they do.
Quote from: Seshatneferw on April 24, 2009, 02:27:34 AM
Also, we got a very close look at boys at just the time when they were trying to learn how to be men. I know I'm generalising, perhaps a bit too much, but after puberty and early twenties I've sort of drifted away from the boys-only social occasions, so the strongest memories are still from such places as school gym or military barracks. Yes, the male mindset (if there is such a thing) is still somewhat alien to me, but from what I've seen adult men are not nearly as weird as boys desperately trying to grow up. I expect the same to apply to women vs. girls, I just didn't get that intensively immersive experience with female puberty and its aftermath.
Nfr
I've wondered about that aspect as well, Nfr. Certainly much of my negative experience with males occurred before I was 25. Not that it's not a valid way of making judgements, but still I'm not at all certain that it's fair or accurate to make "entirety" judgements about "all guys" based on my experiences.
At least one of those experiences would tell me that even my sons are rapists and I am not much willing to believe that that sort of experience is readily transferrable to all males. Nor that every kid who tries to impress with his sexual prowess or general ability to take over all conversation is a good example of what it is to "be male." (Although I admit thinking that for many years. Pain will definitely warp ya!)
History is an inexact science and applying it's "lessons" is often a matter of misreading what one age means and interpreting what's left of a record by current standards of belief and behavior. -- Personal history may be more inexact than any other sort, for fairly obvious reasons. :)
The longer I live, I hope, the less willing I am to make blanket statements about people. My experience appears to lead me to find holes in my certainties when I do that. :)
Nichole
Quote from: GinaDouglas on April 24, 2009, 04:33:56 AM
No, this came up in another discussion recently, and there are a number of surveys on this issue. They vary in the difference between men and women cheating, but all have men cheating more.
Also, I said that men would cheat on their wives if they could get away with it, not necessarily that they do.
I have had several relationships with men who didn't do it for me, and while they may have had some distasteful traits/personality quirks, I would not call them "Dogs". Fortunately I have found a man who is extremely nice. He seems quite normal too.
On the topic though... I'm firmly of the opinion that being TS is simply a temporary thing, a transition, a journey and is quite "Normal" for a person with GID. As a woman who's past may not quite match the norm I still consider myself quite normal, enjoy a normal life, in a normal job, with a normal man, in a normal house... (Crap what if being normal was a bad thing...)
LR
hi...Ladyrider .. you said you had friendships with a few men . as a natal woman . did you mean . how did you find then in regard to there thinking in attatudes to women ......did you like men . . i am a transfemale & live as a woman a andro really .. so i did & do think as a women yet in many ways a male . yet did not like being around men .... i did not interact with them in the way i now know they do ... really ..... hated it ....more at home with women ..... just a thought ...
...noeleena...
Quote from: imaz on April 22, 2009, 06:15:50 PM
Hehe!
I confess I enjoy being transgender, I like the transgressive, in between areas of life and to be perfectly frank I love it when people fancy me because of how I am.
Ok, this isn't PC for some as one mustn't enjoy the sexual side of things because of all that BS from Blanchard, Bailey and their fellow zombies, but I do. Nothing to be ashamed of surely? It's perfectly normal for everyone else, so why not for us?
Would I take being a normal cisgendered woman or man over who I am? No, I wouldn't, not least because I consider it a great blessing to be the way I am in that it has forced me to open my eyes and heart to the World and it's people and taken me to places I could only dream of. Alhamdulillah :)
While I will admit being trans has given me an education I would most likely never had otherwise, I do not consider surgery, electrolysis, voice alteration, hormones and being discriminated against preferable to being able to live my life like most natal women.
When I was firmly entrenched in denial, I would get up in the morning and all day long never give a thought about my gender presentation, my relationship with family and friends or how I'll be received in the world. That's all changed now.
It's been a year since I've been full time and over two years since I went full time less work. I've had FFS, BA and GRS and I still struggle to be seen female. And I have yet to meet anyone who fancys me because I'm transgendered, except maybe ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s and I have no interest in them.
In many ways life is better but in reality I went from one closet into another. And unless I don't care about being a circus side show or a target for someone's prejudice, I'll have to accept the new closet as my new home.
No, I'd prefer "normal" or at least total stealth.
Julie
Please excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-" and how does one distinguish between those who are and those who are not?
Anyway what's the problem if one is fancied for being TS/TG? That's something I just don't understand.
Quote from: imaz on April 24, 2009, 07:44:53 AM
Please excuse my ignorance but what exactly is a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-" and how does one distinguish between those who are and those who are not?
Anyway what's the problem if one is fancied for being TS/TG? That's something I just don't understand.
I believe that the "accepted wisdom" is that a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-" is a man or woman who wants a relationship with an MTF for the purposes of having a penis in the mix on their partner. The stories go that after the penis is gone that such a person is also gone and the MTF is left alone, having lost the appendage that was the "real" attraction.
I presume that such people exist. Although if they did they would seem like just another fetishist, like a person attracted to breasts or thighs or feet to the exclusion of an attraction to the person who had those parts. *shrug*
I believe the notion at work is that the MTF wishes to be desired as a woman, not as a woman with a penis or as a penis. But, I am a bit uncertain on the actual facts of the matter.
O, to answer the original question. I suppose I don't have a preference as I think the dichotomy is a false one.
I suppose I always think of myself as a "normal" woman, but am also a bit uncertain what that means as well. My partner, myself, and our female friends are alike in some ways, but we all have a varied range of likes, dislikes, styles, voices, faces, pasts and desires for future so actually nailing down "normal" seems a bit of a stretch.
Certainly I didn't come to normal in a normal way, but through transition. However, I am not at all sure that anyone is simply born "normal" and grows that way.
I suppose I like to think that each of our journeys are formed from various types and extensions of transitions. Surgeries and hormone replacements and name changes, etc are simply one of many that all humans who actually live their lives go through.
I find it difficult to think that my struggles to become Nichole are any more acute due to transsexing than other people's are who didn't make that particular transition in their lives.
My most difficult transition, in fact, was the one that took me from frightened victim of abuse to survivor. It was the hardest struggle.
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on April 24, 2009, 08:00:42 AM
I believe that the "accepted wisdom" is that a "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-" is a man or woman who wants a relationship with an MTF for the purposes of having a penis in the mix on their partner. The stories go that after the penis is gone that such a person is also gone and the MTF is left alone, having lost the appendage that was the "real" attraction.
I presume that such people exist. Although if they did they would seem like just another fetishist, like a person attracted to breasts or thighs or feet to the exclusion of an attraction to the person who had those parts. *shrug*
I believe the notion at work is that the MTF wishes to be desired as a woman, not as a woman with a penis or as a penis. But, I am a bit uncertain on the actual facts of the matter.
O, to answer the original question. I suppose I don't have a preference as I think the dichotomy is a false one.
I suppose I always think of myself as a "normal" woman, but am also a bit uncertain what that means as well. My partner, myself, and our female friends are alike in some ways, but we all have a varied range of likes, dislikes, styles, voices, faces, pasts and desires for future so actually nailing down "normal" seems a bit of a stretch.
Certainly I didn't come to normal in a normal way, but through transition. However, I am not at all sure that anyone is simply born "normal" and grows that way.
I suppose I like to think that each of our journeys are formed from various types and extensions of transitions. Surgeries and hormone replacements and name changes, etc are simply one of many that all humans who actually live their lives go through.
I find it difficult to think that my struggles to become Nichole are any more acute due to transsexing than other people's are who didn't make that particular transition in their lives.
My most difficult transition, in fact, was the one that took me from frightened victim of abuse to survivor. It was the hardest struggle.
Nichole
Thanks for the clarification Nichole and as you rightly say the transition to be a happy and well adjusted human being is the hardest one everyone has to make. :)
As for people who "want a penis in the mix" to be honest I really don't see the problem myself. There seems to be a massive tabù around this subject as there is around enjoying sex before SRS. Can't understand it myself as it just seems to reinforce traditional gender concepts, and that's something that will eventually come back to haunt us all.
Normal in my thread header was placed in inverted commas to indicate my uneasiness with the term. :)
I think this is not off topic because I am speaking about the original question. Most times I am happy; I do have a lot to be thankful for, and I am thankful. Sometimes I am introspect though, like when I read this question. It seems like such a simple question, but to me it's as loaded as papa fairy on saturday night. If you really concentrate on its implications, this simple question can dig down into your soul. As a child I was forced kicking and screaming to be "male", and I still have a deep and abiding fear I will wake one morning to find I have to be a man for the rest of my life. It's a bloody nightmare. Maybe not the original intent, but the question obliges me to confront how very much I despise this incongruity between my mind and body.
I hope to find the peace one day with my mind/body difference that some here seem to have found with theirs, even as I keep striving to do just that by both physical and spiritual means. For now, that will have to be enough. I literally cannot jump out of my skin any faster than I am already doing, without leaving my body forever. So to answer again, I'd much rather be trans than male, but I'd rather just be female than trans.
Sometimes in the throes of dysphoria maybe it is hard to remember that not everyone feels the same dis/comfort in their own skin. Transitioning has forced me to confront many issues about myself that would have not been resolved otherwise. Then again if I had been born a "normal" female rather than a wrong-side-out one, I don't know that I would have had those issues in any case. Probably would have just had different issues, lol
Love back to you imaz,
Chloe
Scientology has stuff up all over SF about 'what if you could change just one thing?' Implying that there is some sort of magic deal, that if you could just hit that switch life would be all peachy keen. Life rarely seems to work out that way.
If it ain't one thing, its going to be another. Lots of people, not just trans, not just people with GID have trouble with body image, don't feel right in their skin, or their lives.
Its human nature to want to see the good in a perfect way, and ignore the bad thinking 'that's what happens to other people.'
but we have to believe we have the power to change it, otherwise we end up victims of our own lives. In the past 8 years I have changed occupations, homes, partners, priorities, and am now in the process of changing my physical sex. All changes for the better, though at the time some of them didn't seem that way. I still look forward to and strive for a time when things are better, even while I understand that I have it pretty darn good now.
Quote from: imaz on April 24, 2009, 10:11:06 AM
As for people who "want a penis in the mix" to be honest I really don't see the problem myself. There seems to be a massive tabù around this subject as there is around enjoying sex before SRS. Can't understand it myself as it just seems to reinforce traditional gender concepts, and that's something that will eventually come back to haunt us all.
I think it already haunts us, Imaz. The basis of the entire ->-bleeped-<- postulate is that "women are asexual." Therefore one can attach a plesymythograph a la Freund and Blanchard to a set of genitalia and determine arousal at images. Obviously, if an MTF is aroused by sex then she cannot possibly be a woman because everyone knows that women are asexual.
Impeccably logical, no? :)
But transwomen have often followed that identical course as if having a libido somehow manages to disqualify one as being a "real" woman or a "true" transsexual. (There are other specious ideas about attraction to one or another sex that are also used in such ways.)
The brew has been not only disingenuous, but literally harmful. But lots of trans-women apparently walk in fear of having any sexual attractions prior to surgery as if those would somehow disqualify one from actually being TS. *sigh*
I recall years ago on a board where I actually admitted having sexual desires and was expecting a thorough reaming for doing so. (I did get dissed by a few) but I was pleasantly surprised to see a host of women own the same feelings and desires and physical reactions (orgasms) as being "norm" for them as well and they'd felt, just like me, that they couldn't admit to having them because the "pat story" was that MTFs cannot have those responses.
@ Fairygirl
QuoteI'd much rather be trans than male, but I'd rather just be female than trans. I'd much rather be trans than male, but I'd rather just be female than trans.
O, luv :icon_hug: I sooo understand.
My way through that jungle has been just recognizing that women come in all sorts of different packages. I'm not going to argue that I didn't transition, but will choose to know that I have always been female (no, I don't get into the "always a woman" thang simply because no one ever avoids her childhood. And being a woman and being a girl are separate developmental stages.) :)
Perhaps seeing the matter as one
and another rather than one
or another is better for you?
:icon_hug:
Nichole
Too right it does Nichole. One of the purposes of this thread was to bring such tabù matters to the surface.
As I'm not "normal" in the sense I was born male these issues impact on me directly. To be perfectly frank in my experience the least understanding regarding issues concerning the sexuality of "transsexuals" have been "transsexuals" themselves followed by Gay men then Lesbians while the most tolerant have been Heterosexuals.
Yes I enjoy what I have and have no feelings of shame in doing so, cannot for the life of me see why I should. So long as things happen between consenting adults and no one gets hurt physically or psychologically what can be wrong?
It's not just sex that seems to be unmentionable but all the whole non-op business and the issue of non adhering to a mythological concept of womanhood and femininity.
As regards the last two both the women I live with would certainly fail despite being born female! ;D
thanks Nichole, it is definitely something to think about. :)
Last night I was watching a special on CNN called "Behind the Veil" about women in Afghanistan and how things have changed for them since being "liberated". Seems it's not all that much. Even though it's no longer required by law, men and local custom still force many women to wear those horrid blue burkas from head to foot, and many are reduced to begging in the muddy streets to the jeers and insults of men passing by, having lost their husbands and sons to 20 years of war. They can't even afford to eat or feed their children, so it doesn't much matter that technically they are now at least free to get an education. In such a society I wonder if there are those who wish to be female so much they would be willing to endure what these poor women suffer? I'm sure many of them would love dearly to abandon mythological concepts of womanhood and femininity, at least those imposed on them by their society. What passes for "normal" there would seem to be tragic by anyone else's standards. :-\
Post Merge: April 24, 2009, 12:07:02 PM
sorry, didn't mean to be a wet blanket. :embarrassed: Please resume discussing sex lol
Very true FairyGirl, it's very sad that Islam is blighted by such appalling societies when The Prophet (SAW) himself had extremely progressive ideas for his time. It is often forgotten the important roles that women played in those early year even being present in warfare.
Unfortunately the situation in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and Iran has been worsened by western interventions and global politicking.
God willing things will improve when fundamentalism ceases to be encouraged by global inequalities and military interventionalism. Never forget that Osama Bin Laden was trained by the CIA as part of their Cold War stategy.
I think you can find a strong progressive streak in every major religion on the planet; and almost every one of them is destroyed by Pharisees, people who love (and extend) the legal aspects and forget why they came about in the first place. It's a persistent tragedy of history.
Intervention is a slippery concept. I don't fault the U.S. (and Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan) for supoprting a variety of local groups in resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, but for dropping them once the Soviet Union fell apart, and for dropping them once again, -- I mean, WTF?!!!! -- in 2003 to go screw over Iraq for no particular reason. Remember, the U.S. also gets flak for not intervening in Rwanda. (But they are not Muslim and don't have oil, so we quickly forget; Bill Clinton is loved in Africa for being the only major world leader from the time who actually seems to regret that failure, even though he didn't do a damned thing.)
We have the U.N. and regional groups like NATO specifically (in part) to provide for a framework for distinguishing between necessary interventions (where diplomacy completely fails, Yugoslavia, for instance) from military adventures like the American invasion of Iraq.
Very true and very sad particularly concerning Islam where the Quran warns against making the same mistakes as the the other Abrahamic faiths. The clerical hierarchy in Shia Islam is a case in point.
Afghanistan unlike Iraq didn't have oil (AFAIK) but that didn't do them much good... As far as the Soviet invasion goes it was caused by their paranoia concerning being surrounded by the US and it's allies. If one observes the globe looking down from the North Pole the USSR was effectively surrounded on all sides and far from being the threat it was perceived to be. They themselves justly felt under great pressure due to these circumstances.
As regards the UN, the EU, The OAU etc and their interventions that's a different matter, and I concur that the intervention in Bosnia was necessary and positive.
I don't think that paranoia is exactly a valid reason for invading a country, whether your name is Brezhnev or Bush.
I don't think that paranoia is exactly a valid reason for invading a country
Perhaps not, however, it is a very popular one.
Maybe we should all play dress up and invade some unsuspecting country with love and kindness just for the hell of it :laugh: >:-) :laugh: Oh, and don't to forget to bring flowers and something for the pot luck dinner
Quote from: Virginia Marie on April 24, 2009, 11:07:37 PM
Maybe we should all play dress up and invade some unsuspecting country with love and kindness just for the hell of it :laugh: >:-) :laugh: Oh, and don't to forget to bring flowers and something for the pot luck dinner
A Love Invasion... :icon_flower: That sounds fabulous!
I'm liking the sound of this love invasion!
Oh, I'd much rather just be normal. Being "different" has been eye-opening, but I think I'd be a relatively understanding guy even if I were born the correct gender.
The Love Invasion sounds like a really dodgy band,
Best of The Love Invasion - Includes the Hits, Cupid's Bullets, Bombsight to My Heart and WMD (Weapons of Mass Delectable-ness).
I'd prefer to be normal, but if
Post Merge: April 25, 2009, 06:29:12 AM
i were normal, there'd be something else to complain about.
Hi... Trust ..... I dont think i could stand being ...... what did you say ....normal ... na .. not this kid never was to start with ...so why now ..... he he oh well .....
...noeleena...
TS/TG? Yeh, that's normal. I feel I'm normal. Isn't NORMAL an acronym for an organization for legalizing pot. I've heard of that before.
Quote from: Mister on April 22, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
I didn't spend time and money overhauling my life to forever be 'lesser' or 'other' than my cisgendered counterparts. Outside of my physician, my girlfriend and my parents, I am not known otherwise. I'd prefer to pass undetected than to be recognized and respected.
qft
Quote from: Mister on April 22, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
I have to disagree. I didn't spend time and money overhauling my life to forever be 'lesser' or 'other' than my cisgendered counterparts. Outside of my physician, my girlfriend and my parents, I am not known otherwise. I'd prefer to pass undetected than to be recognized and respected.
Aha... Someone after my own heart. Damn it even rhymes...
LR
Quote from: Mister on April 22, 2009, 06:18:19 PM
I have to disagree. I didn't spend time and money overhauling my life to forever be 'lesser' or 'other' than my cisgendered counterparts. Outside of my physician, my girlfriend and my parents, I am not known otherwise. I'd prefer to pass undetected than to be recognized and respected.
I agree Mister. Good post!
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 25, 2009, 06:27:47 AM
The Love Invasion sounds like a really dodgy band,
Best of The Love Invasion - Includes the Hits, Cupid's Bullets, Bombsight to My Heart and WMD (Weapons of Mass Delectable-ness).
Sounds like you've got it all planned out...wanna be our leader? I've got dibs on the tambourine!!!
If I weren't TG, I wouldn't be me. I like who I am. That's the bottom line.
This is funny you should post this right now because it was just what i was thinking about.This feminine "intuition"that i have has helped me avoid pitfalll's in my life i think.The guy's just tell me i have a sense of "radar".But i know it comes from my female side because i can alway's pick who i can trust and who not
To be honest, I'd much rather be a normal cisgendered female.
I absolutely can not stand being trans at the moment. My mom is not being supportive, at all, and I'm stuck living as a male.
I'd much rather have it handed to be on a silver platter, if it were a possibility.
In most situations I find normal boring, but in this case I would definately choose normal. Male or female, it wouldn't matter which since if I was normal I wouldn't care. An easier life is always a plus.
I guess I would have rather been born a normal female. I saw a beautiful young woman yesterday but wasn't really attracted to her. But rather I was envious of her youth and beauty. She was nice to me and I was nice in return and we went our separate ways. But I was screaming inside and hating myself :P
"Normal," scares me!!!!
Because so-called "normal" people say and due some of the dumbest things.
Quote from: michellesofl on April 25, 2009, 11:59:52 PM
"Normal," scares me!!!!
Because so-called "normal" people say and due some of the dumbest things.
Then again...What is normal? really....If I was a cis gendered girl I'd prob. be very "tom boyish". I guess thats why I stay in the Androgyne forest. Because I'm a bit of a mix of both. Some days one side is felt stronger than the other, but both my boy and my girl are always around :laugh: