I've heard this a little bit in my time, that androgynes, well a certain segment of androgynes, are transsexuals in denial.
Definitely there are transsexuals that find androgyny a comfortable half-way house, a stopover in their journey, and I'm not referring to them or those that just want to appear androgynous.
Then there are those like myself that feel their internal gender is neither male nor female. I've noticed that many of these same people actually say that they would be happier with the body of the opposite sex. I myself would rather have a female body. I am pretty ambivalent about having a penis though, seems to do the job for me. But I can't help but think that if I sorted out my body then my dysphoria would focus on that part of my body. It would suddenly become incongruent. I've heard other transsexuals talking about this same experience.
This morning I was thinking about something me and my counsellor discussed that likely I have not fully discovered who I am. This comes from never before having the freedom to express myself as I like or having people to reflect off. As a result of this, because I'm not solid in my core self, I am really sensitive to external stuff like comments made by other people which seems to be one trigger for my depression.
Anyway I was thinking that if I was a woman the image of the woman I wanted to be is actually at odds with society i.e. a gender queer woman. A big chunk of not feeling like a woman for me is that I reject the rules for being a woman in our society, I will not be bound by them, I don't want to act like them. I want freedom from the gender shackles. The problem is this clashes with my internal image of what a woman is. Perhaps I am a woman, just not the type of woman that fits my image of what a woman is. Anyway, just typing out loud, I'm hoping writing it down will help me clarify my thoughts.
I feel like I am making headway, maybe I am on to something. Perhaps this is just one of those teenage like phases of self exploration. The thought that perhaps I am actually a woman terrifies me for some reason, I think it makes things harder because then I will feel like I have a standard to live up to.
I'm male-bodied, but I think that genderfluid or genderflux best describes my gender identity at this time.
Ideally, I'd have a body that combines male and female physical attributes. That said, I'd like to be able to pass either male or female at will. There are days when I feel more one than the other, and vice versa. There are days when I feel like neither, and would love to "pass" as neither. That is to say, I'd want to present an image that would be indeterminate.
Is this transexualism in denial? I'd never thought of it that way. I'm not really sure if I can answer that question.
Any statement of the form "A is just B in denial" is suspect.
Quote from: Lisbeth on April 23, 2009, 03:43:39 PM
Any statement of the form "A is just B in denial" is suspect.
Absolutely, I'm not saying this would apply to everyone that considers themselves androgyne, perhaps only myself.
Quote from: Nicky on April 23, 2009, 03:16:46 PM
Anyway I was thinking that if I was a woman the image of the woman I wanted to be was actually at odds with society i.e. a gender queer woman. A big chunk of not feeling like a woman for me is that I reject the rules for being a woman in our society, I will not be bound by them, I don't want to act like them. I want freedom from the gender shackles. The problem is this clashes with my internal image of what a woman is. Perhaps I am a woman, just not the type of woman that fits my image of what a woman is. Anyway, just typing out loud, I'm hoping writing it down will help me clarify my thoughts.
I feel like I am making headway, maybe I am on to something. Perhaps this is just one of those teenage like phases of self exploration. The thought that perhaps I am actually a woman terrifies me for some reason, I think it makes things harder because then I will feel like I have a standard to live up to.
Hi Nicky, I don't think you are in denial at all.
Actually what you say about the image of the woman you want to be being in conflict with your image of what a woman is perfectly normal. Please don't take this as anything threatening in a psychological sense, but it's extremely common amongst gender born women to feel exactly the same. I live with two women who fall into that very category.
If you are a woman, and only you Nicky can know the truth as regards that, there are no standards you need to live up to except those that apply to us whatever our gender(s). That is to be decent human being.
Much love and hugs and you are certainly making headway in self acceptance :)
-imaz-
Thank you Imaz. It would be nice to know if others have been through a similar experience, I would take heart if it was common.
Maybe you are right. Denial might not be the right words...but it certainly makes a provocative title ;)
Yes Nicky, I've been there too :)
At the end of the day I worked out that I'd be happier as an androgynous female than as an androgynous male.
Took me a long time to suss it as especially in this community such positions used to be frowned on especially by the evil trolls who gate-kept at Charing X.
Really relate to all you say, thank you for your honesty and openness.
Nicky,
You do ask the most interesting questions.
First off, I do believe that there are SOME folks who identify as androgyne that truly are transsexuals (whether in denial or just unrealized). That being said, there are SOME honest lawyers and SOME Used Car Salesmen that you can trust. If we have learned anything from being outside the gender binary, it is that EVERYTHING is outside the True/False binary in some form or another.
OK...caveats out of the way...here comes the fun part
There have been times that I wished very strongly that I was TS. Not only would it make things easier to explain to everyone, but would also put some kind of boundaries around my gender. Being gender fluid makes for all kinds of fun.
Like you, I don't have a problem with my male bits, except when they get in the way or have been tucked for too long. I actually enjoy the benefits (like peeing while standing) and have no desire to be rid of it/them. I have bigger issues with hair growing everywhere and trying to get rid of all my "table muscle" while trying to find that perfect mix of male/female presentation based on how I am feeling at the moment and who I will be around.
As you said, maybe once everything else is settled down I MIGHT have a problem down there, but if and when that time comes, I will address it then. We are all on a journey with only a rough destination in mind...the rest, we just make up as we go. Who knows what twists and turns we may find tomorrow or next week or next year? The surest road to unhappiness it to fix your expectations upon something that will not happen. If I plan my finances on winning the lottery in June, come July I'll most likely be filing bankruptcy. The same can be said of choosing our final destination before we even finish the first mile.
Anyway, for now, I'm just trying to be the best Laurry I can. Everything else is TBD.
.....L
I first wondered if I were a transexual when I was a high school freshman or sophomore standing in the drugstore flipping through a biography of Christine Jorgenson. Most recently, I wondered about it a year ago.
Other times, I've just felt society has created categories and barriers that just don't match reality. I am more like some women than most men, but quite different from some women and like some men. I am so unlike the men I see in TV commercials, I cannot understand them and cannot picture myself in love with one no matter what body I had. And the transexual body lacks the one aspect my wife repeatedly stresses as a key difference between us: menstruation.
The women I've been closest to are strong-willed and independent, and I am generally satisfied with the relationships I have with them. The fourth-grade idea of competition between men and women is entirely foreign to me.
So the category of androgyne is very appealing. I intend to remain one of Nero's subjects in the unicorn forest. None of what I've written sounds wise, consistent, or comprehensive to me. Nicky, I want to clarify my own thoughts and watch your journey with intense interest.
Keep writing,
S
I saw a woman today and I wished I had her hips. I don't think I'm in denial but I guess it would be easier to just be binary.
Paradise is being with a group of genderqueers.
I wonder if your wife will still be saying that after menopause?
Does it all come down to the nature of being male and female (or not being)? Perhaps they are simply groups people belong to and what that means is up to the individual? I think you are right. Society has created categories and barriers that just don't match reality, but maybe they are good approximations. Where does the desire to fit a category come from? What is the nature of gender...
What if gender is simply a sense of belonging or not belonging to a category? Beyond that everything else is fair game. Or maybe it is some unseen interconectedness. Women or men in spirit if not in body or action.
My mind is loving the idea, that I could be a woman of my own design. I could be a woman and the kind of woman I am is me. I could share some of the warmth of their/our fire, I could belong.
I've asked myself similar questions. Where I seem to always end up is that I'm some sort of non op androgyne TS person who isn't either binary gender. If I were to ever decide to transform my body to more female spectrum, I think I'd still be neither or in between.
Z
Yes, it all sounds very familiar. Surprising, eh? ::)
I wouldn't call myself a TS in denial, though, but rather one in remission. In terms of physical sex, my feelings are pretty much 'normal TS', only I'm willing to put up with the congenital dildo -- the way I see it, it's not much different from how people deal with more traditional birth defects. I'm glad that Susan added a non-op category, now I've got a second home. :)
In terms of social gender I'm pretty clearly an androgyne, and have been since about primary school. I suspect it's at least partly because my upbringing made me find a way for a girl to grow up to a man. In any case, I'm convinced that if I transitioned I'd be just as non-stereotypical as I'm now. In the social sense there's no need for me to transition -- as a woman I'm genderqueer enough that people seem willing to see me as a man. Inside I'm just me and let others gender me the way they want to, and any physical changes I may make won't change this outlook.
Of course, that's just me; the gender/sex complex is a strange and wonderful thing, and there's a lot of variation.
Nfr
i often see women and have little pulls in that direction. I reckon had i been born a woman, I'd have not discovered myself as an androgyne, yet i still would have been one. I think my preferred social roles are female and so I wouldn't have felt the tug of being an androgyne so strongly - i think i would have gone through life as a slightly disconnected woman. So far I have been going through life as a very disconnected man....Now I am trying to be a connected androgyne, which is hard because to do so you have to discover how androgynes connect.
Quote from: Nicky on April 23, 2009, 03:16:46 PM
A big chunk of not feeling like a woman for me is that I reject the rules for being a woman in our society, I will not be bound by them, I don't want to act like them. I want freedom from the gender shackles. The problem is this clashes with my internal image of what a woman is. Perhaps I am a woman, just not the type of woman that fits my image of what a woman is.
This describes exactly how I feel. It's also probably why I tend to identify as both an androgyne -and- a transwoman. For the most part I do primarily identify as a
woman. I think I just use the
androgyne and
trans parts as qualifiers.
Androgyne was a step in my self acceptance.
Like a midway point from my stubborn "I'm a girl I should act like one" to the acceptance that I wasn't a girl, never felt like a girl, and want to change the flesh to suit "me"..
The "maybe I'm just androgyne.." gave me a short reprieve where I didn't feel like I had to make any choice what so ever cause, it was okay,.. everyone's both feminine and masculine to some extend, and gender's just a social construct, and I can just be me without caring what my underwear contains..
Didn't last.
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 24, 2009, 05:03:34 AM
i often see women and have little pulls in that direction. I reckon had i been born a woman, I'd have not discovered myself as an androgyne, yet i still would have been one. I think my preferred social roles are female and so I wouldn't have felt the tug of being an androgyne so strongly - i think i would have gone through life as a slightly disconnected woman. So far I have been going through life as a very disconnected man....Now I am trying to be a connected androgyne, which is hard because to do so you have to discover how androgynes connect.
As far as cultural and social norms, I prefer and naturally take the role of a woman. I feel that is a factor in the incongruence I feel as a man as others have expressed here. In the past, I allowed my fear of acceptance drive me toward stereotypical male behaviors (rather than my natural female ones) which led to more incongruence and ultimately to transition, where I felt right - right behaviors, right presentation, right body. That didn't last though - I began to feel that I SHOULD be able to be a male with my natural roles and so now I am attempting that.
So I've been where you are Nicky and I totally get your comment Pica. I'm just trying to not let those "little pulls" as Pica calls them, to drive me back to transition. It takes strength to challenge my biases, my cultural imprinting, and the social norms in order to be the kind of PERSON I am inside and do so in a male body.
Androgyny is soooooo appealing, but I realize it is another escape - an escape into kind of a "half" transition so I don't have to face the social consequences of being male and acting and feeling female.
Nothing wrong with escapism! Why do you feel you mustn't give in to you true nature? Religious/social reasons?
Quote from: imaz on April 24, 2009, 10:14:13 AM
Nothing wrong with escapism! Why do you feel you mustn't give in to you true nature? Religious/social reasons?
What is my true nature? Can I even define it in some esoteric, believable way? I know my nature by the way I naturally act, and though cultural norms dictate that might be female, there is no book written in the sky that says that is correct. There is a chance that the incongruity I feel between body and mind relates to how I act naturally. If this is the case, I feel that if I learn to be comfortable in my natural female cultural role, as a male bodied person, the incongruence will lessen as well - maybe even disappear (gasp!). ;)
I personly hate being seen as just a guy but being just a girl probably wouldn't be any better there are things that I would choose to be female but I don't know if any treatment would change some of those things for the better other things hormanes would definetly help but the one thing male that I won't get rid of is my beard although it may disapear as a way to convince shrinks to give me hormones but It wont be gone for long
sometimes i think it would be so much easier if I was TS as the boxes in the minds of shrinks would be ticked easily
most of societys gender "rules" I disagree with.
I don't won't to change the rule book I follow. I want to throw them both out and just be me
Just when I was getting comfortable with the A label and myself in the world, I read stuff like this and the doubts begin all over. I identified as a TS for a long time but then began to realize that although I wanted feminine characteristics I would probably never have SRS.
The androgyne nich seemed to fit. I could be as feminine as I felt like without crossing the point of no return. For me TS is a huge committment. I'm not sure I could follow it to the end and have doubts that I would be more comfortable in my skin. I'm still using HRT under a doc's supervision and I actually feel less confusion. When I went off it for a while I thought much more of wanting to be feminine.
It been a quest and a journey that will probably never end. My whole trip now is just to be as comfortable with what I am as possible. The trip has been very fluid with moments of certainty dotted with denial. I'm still ok with it and I think the A world is a place I can live and prosper. I still have the recurring thought of why this quest involves so much time and energy and why me?
I've had this thought before too. Earlier this year I was even considering transition. However, when I think about what I would look and sound like after transition (based on the men in my family), that's even more uncomfortable to me than having a female body. If the degree of change could be controlled, then I'd be all for it.
So I think I am finally in tune with who I really am and that is a male identified androgyne. I want to be androgynous, not masculine or feminine. Granted, in a perfect world, I would like to have been an androgynous male-bodied person. But I know how my current body works, all it's nuances and quirks, and I have gotten much more comfortable with it than I had been (it turns out that breasts are kind of interesting and fun, if you think about it :P). So I'm definitely androgyne.
I just think there's more freedom in being androgyne than TS. Sometimes I feel like there are still some restrictions that people want to place on TS people because they are still "binary" in a way...or something...
Constraining gender roles have always bothered me, but just because I don't like the roles assigned to a certain gender does not mean I am not of that gender. They're just dumb social rules, and just because I transition doesn't mean I suddenly need to start following them; I refuse to trade one set of limitations for another. I define gender by my body map and whether I think I'm male, female, or in between, rather than by whether I fit into arbitrary gender roles. When I was first figuring this out, however, I paid too much attention to stereotypes and thought that I was androgyne as a result. I soon dropped the assumptions and identified as male. There was some validity in my inbetween stage that was not based on stereotypes, so I got rid of my gender marker (with a username like Mr. Fox, no one is going to "she" me; otherwise I would have kept it) and enjoy lurking here occassionally.
It's not even just social roles though...there's something about being 'binary' that feels trapped to me. ??? I don't know either. I guess I just like the fluidity of being androgyne.
Jamey is drizzunk... :icon_drunk:
Indeed Jaimey, binary doesn't actually exist in reality however much people may wish it to.
Everyone is androgyne to a certain degree whether they admit or not. probably it is exactly This and the fear that it brings that is reponsible for society's promotion of the binary model.
Quote from: Nicky on April 23, 2009, 03:16:46 PM
Then there are those like myself that feel their internal gender is neither male nor female.
This morning I was thinking about something me and my counsellor discussed that likely I have not fully discovered who I am.
As a result of this...I'm not solid in my core self
this is another of your rather heady brews.
i feel much the same way about my own core self, that it is neither male nor female. nor does it give a rat's a** about how it should be addressed.
however, living through one's core personality is not an easy thing to do. just finding it is fraught with all the dangers of losing oneself to religion.
and, even if you can do it, you still have to present "some" kind of image to the world -- and to your core self -- which your core self will recognize with approval.
-ell
From an academic psychological perspective that is certainly true although in reality things can be more fluid... maybe?
Quote from: ell on April 25, 2009, 06:28:36 PM
however, living through one's core personality is not an easy thing to do. just finding it is fraught with all the dangers of losing oneself to religion.
and, even if you can do it, you still have to present "some" kind of image to the world -- and to your core self -- which your core self will recognize with approval.
That's the truth Ell!
Z
Quote from: Kinkly on April 24, 2009, 10:45:34 AM
I don't won't to change the rule book I follow. I want to throw them both out and just be me
That's such a beautiful sentiment, but putting it into practice...?
I feel that I'm still finding "me"... without the rulebook!? It's like a dark labyrinth, no map and no guide... Androgyne in denial? Dunno... Don't really care right now... I may get lost in the dark... or get sick-and-tired of it...
From an academic psychological perspective...
... pretty much all things are possible. Its only when you move to the clinical level that it changes.
Meaning?
being clinically insane is worse than being casually insane
:laugh:
Quote from: Rebis on May 03, 2009, 06:22:58 PM
being clinically insane is worse than being casually insane
:laugh:
That really did make me laugh out loud! ;D
Quote from: imaz on May 03, 2009, 06:43:43 PM
That really did make me laugh out loud! ;D
I'm afraid that only the clinically insane have the nerve to laugh out loud. Please see a doctor immediately!
Quote from: imaz on May 03, 2009, 06:43:43 PM
That really did make me laugh out loud! ;D
Me too!
CaddyShack.
(sorry. wrong thread)
I think you both should be taking all this more seriously.
Quote from: Rebis on May 03, 2009, 06:45:54 PM
I'm afraid that only the clinically insane have the nerve to laugh out loud. Please see a doctor immediately!
Minor problem there my friend... I have DSM-IV-TR sitting right here on my desk... ;D ;D
Regarding the initial post, to not conform to whatever rules society has for gender (and likely showing some elements of each role gender role) is to be androgynous. The adjective "androgynous" can be applied to whichever gender you happen to be (female, male; it is probably a redundant addition if you are androgyne, unicorn...). If you are ambivalent when it comes to your body (in terms of primary or secondary sex characteristics), that seems to point to being androgyne. It's worth noting that no study has proven (or even can prove) that you are supposed to feel precisely like exactly one gender (even after disregarding the constraints of gender roles); it seems to arise more than people are ostensibly born with one set of unambiguous set of sex organs (which ignores intersexuals), or because their societal norms, religion, or other personal beliefs say so.
Just as someone theoretically could choose to identify as androgyne instead of "switching" for reasons of convenience, one could also do the opposite; the latter can arise for people with a black-white view of the world (you are one or the other) or would rather just pick a gender so people don't ask follow-up questions nearly all the time ("what's an androgyne?" -- Laurry identifies with this idea).
Regarding whether you don't fit as a man or fit as a woman (or at least your perceptions of them), you may have to broaden your idea of who a woman is (and who a man is), and your potential identity as one should this greater flexibility of feeling and expression. You can also find yourself to be an androgyne, and that's great, too.
Quote from: Rebis on May 03, 2009, 06:49:11 PM
CaddyShack.
(sorry. wrong thread)
I think you both should be taking all this more seriously.
*insert funny comment here* I was trying, but I got nothing. :P
I think androgyny is a great thing. But for me it's not wanting to be both or neither. I think an HIR is like being everything and nothing at the same time. But for me it's being able to be a boy one day or being a girl the next. My androgyny is also mix and matching. All boy but my make-up is done. Or all girl but I'm wearing boxers, beater and my work boots. I like the gender bending and to me, is that what my androgyny can be defined as? Or does it have to be like an HIR? I do not think though that I am and transexual in denial. And though I have thought about it I like this middle ground. But are there rules to being in the middle ground? Like not andro enough or too andro?
Nicky, this is a topic dear to my heart. I have trouble accepting TG.
I will need to think on this topic. I can not answer it as of this time.
I have suppressed my feeling for so many decades that I have difficulty navigating out of my own mind and I can not accept myself.
I don't think there are any rules to the middle ground Noel, if there were we would reject them. I think the middle ground is about not having rules. There are lots of ways to be 'non-binary'.
What we do seem to lack is rolemodels. People who live in a non-binary way that is similar to how we would like to live in a non-binary way.
Wendy, I think we all collect 'baggage' to a certain extent. Some of this can be very difficult to budge. Take all the time you need.
Well, after thinking about this for a bit more, then not thinking about it, I think I have come to the conclusion that I still don't know if I am a woman though I am definitly not a man, but damn I sure would like to look like a woman and be free to be socially a woman if I choose and not get looked at funny when I walk into a womans clothes shop... This is interesting as I used to think I would be happier being more of a 'blend'. I don't think I would be. What I was not expecting was the feeling that to achieve living as a woman is going to be a much bigger hill than living in the tween. But I believe that when I get there things will be so much better.
Quote from: Nicky on May 04, 2009, 09:56:28 PM
What we do seem to lack is rolemodels. People who live in a non-binary way that is similar to how we would like to live in a non-binary way.
One reason we don't have many androgyne role models is because many of us are invisible, or perceived as something else than what we are.
Z
My counsellor Mani is intersexed and trying to live in a non-binary way. She has a wispy goaty that she says is her attempt to be more visible. Just thought I would include it to our mix of visible 'non-binary' imagery. I love her pictures because she always seem real and authentic to me.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ianz.org.nz%2Fimages%2FIMG_5841lowrez%2520%281%29.JPG&hash=575bdc02076aabcd3c81fefbefe37ee80ee893e9)
Quote from: Noel on May 04, 2009, 08:02:25 PM
I think an HIR is like being everything and nothing at the same time... I like the gender bending and to me, is that what my androgyny can be defined as? Or does it have to be like an HIR?
What is an HIR?
That is a good question. It came to Caden and mine's attention when another friend was speaking about this person at a retreat and kept using it. So I wikipedia'd it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hir#Modern_attempts_at_gender-equity_in_English_pronouns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hir#Modern_attempts_at_gender-equity_in_English_pronouns)
The best why I can simplify it is saying it's like being everything and nothing. Being both boy and girl but neither.
I think it's just an andro term created so you didn't have to reference she or he, him or her.
Quote from: Nicky on May 04, 2009, 09:56:28 PM
Wendy, I think we all collect 'baggage' to a certain extent. Some of this can be very difficult to budge. Take all the time you need.
Well, after thinking about this for a bit more, then not thinking about it, I think I have come to the conclusion that I still don't know if I am a woman though I am definitly not a man, but damn I sure would like to look like a woman and be free to be socially a woman if I choose and not get looked at funny when I walk into a womans clothes shop... This is interesting as I used to think I would be happier being more of a 'blend'. I don't think I would be. What I was not expecting was the feeling that to achieve living as a woman is going to be a much bigger hill than living in the tween. But I believe that when I get there things will be so much better.
Nicky I can agree with those comments. My mind does not see me as a male even though society sees me as a male. I'd prefer to be a female but now I am right in the middle. Society views me now as very different male.
It has taken me my lifetime to get this far. Is there an option to be a girl without going through TS? What I have done to this point seems to have been the right thing for me. It is a crossroad. We can almost reverse your question Nicky. Do TS folks stop because they are androgynes and do not know it?
What is the end point of androgynes? My goodness every male and every female has some aspect and/or feature that would fit in the other gender.
That is the million dollar question - what is the end point? I think it is differnt for us all and perhaps it is an ever moving target for some. Nobody really stays still. We grow older, we make life 'transitions'. Maybe the key is to be happy with the journey?
Transition is not a straight A to B either. They can go in all sorts of directions and people stop off along the way or get back on again, or change tracks.
You can certainly be a girl in a way you want to be, some people manage to be socially woman even if they don't 'pass', some people live part time - one gender at work, but live as the other in all other respects. You can decide it now "I am a girl" and nothing else external changes that. For some people this brings a lot of peace.
I suspect you are right that some, but not all, TS folk stop because they are androgynes and don't know it. We actually have a few members here that transitioned fully then pulled back some of the way when they found it was not right for them.
the end point is death isn't it?
Quote from: Noel on May 05, 2009, 02:55:07 PM
That is a good question. It came to Caden and mine's attention when another friend was speaking about this person at a retreat and kept using it. So I wikipedia'd it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hir#Modern_attempts_at_gender-equity_in_English_pronouns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hir#Modern_attempts_at_gender-equity_in_English_pronouns)
The best why I can simplify it is saying it's like being everything and nothing. Being both boy and girl but neither.
I think it's just an andro term created so you didn't have to reference she or he, him or her.
Ah, "HIR" as in the gender-neutral pronoun. I guess I'm just not used to seeing it written in all caps and I think my coffee-starved brain was reading it as an acronym. Thanks for getting me back on track there. :laugh:
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 05, 2009, 05:16:15 PM
the end point is death isn't it?
Aren't you supposed to preface this with one of those spoilers so those of us who haven't finished the Book of Life don't read the denouement inadvertantly?
Darn,
S
Post Merge: May 05, 2009, 06:07:21 PM
Quote from: Nicky on May 04, 2009, 10:11:07 PM
My counsellor Mani is intersexed and trying to live in a non-binary way. She has a wispy goaty that she says is her attempt to be more visible.
That and her eyebrows look natural. All in all, looks like the face of someone I'd enjoy talking with.
Best wishes for your journey.
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on May 05, 2009, 05:56:17 PM
Aren't you supposed to preface this with one of those spoilers so those of us who haven't finished the Book of Life don't read the denouement inadvertantly?
No, it's like the film Titanic, we all know it's going to sink - but we don't know what'll happen to the characters.
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 05, 2009, 06:10:37 PM
No, it's like the film Titanic, we all know it's going to sink - but we don't know what'll happen to the characters.
now that's the one sappy chick flick i did like.
Quote from: Nero on May 05, 2009, 06:15:27 PM
now that's the one sappy chick flick i did like.
Too scary for me.
S
really? i loved watching it go down and all the screaming and struggling and such. survival is always a good theme.
granted Leonardo Dicaprio was a little scary, but...
Quote from: Nero on May 05, 2009, 06:22:54 PM
really? i loved watching it go down and all the screaming and struggling and such. survival is always a good theme.
granted Leonardo Dicaprio was a little scary, but...
You are so strong and macho, I'm in awe.
Your humble subject,
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on May 05, 2009, 06:35:11 PM
You are so strong and macho, I'm in awe.
Your humble subject,
S
lol it's a relatively tame disaster movie, but thanks for the compliment. :laugh:
Quote from: Nero on May 05, 2009, 06:37:06 PM
lol it's a relatively tame disaster movie, but thanks for the compliment. :laugh:
I frequently watch reruns of "Murder, She Wrote". Does that count?
S
Nero in ice water the average person lasts about 10 minutes and will be gasping for air. In fact many will drown upon hitting the water as they gasp for air and breathe ice water. Only in a movie is it that dramatic... but I liked the movie. Tear-jerker movie.
Quote from: Nicky on May 05, 2009, 05:03:37 PM
I suspect you are right that some, but not all, TS folk stop because they are androgynes and don't know it. We actually have a few members here that transitioned fully then pulled back some of the way when they found it was not right for them.
Nicky, I have a good memory. I've had PM's with some of the folks that lived as a girl and then pulled back.
I discussed this thread with my wife as I walked the old neighbor's dog this evening. She says I am an androgyne. I said, "Two years ago you knew nothing about my gender issues." She then replied but, "You never had limits on gender specific activities."
Do some androgynes that were born male want to be pretty and look like a girl? I live as a guy to the world and my wife gets to see someone not guy.
I realize androgynes and transsexuals are different but I also believe society creates bounds and people fill every niche. One of my shortcomings is that things need to be black and white and they can be explained. I can not explain why I feel better doing what I do and it does not appear black or white.
It is sad that society is very narrow in their view of gender expression.
hi Wendy.
I think it's perfectly normal for an androgyne to want to be pretty. And girls aren't the only ones who can be pretty. And from what I've seen, it's perfectly normal for some androgynes to wish for a more female or more male appearance.
Quote from: Wendy on May 05, 2009, 08:48:56 PM
Do some androgynes that were born male want to be pretty and look like a girl?
Hi Wendy,
Here's one that does...but not all the time. I also llike to wear a beard and gender-blend a little. Lately, it's been about 7-8 months girl-ish and 4-5 months guy-ish.
.......Laurry
Quote from: Laurry on May 05, 2009, 09:46:34 PM
Hi Wendy,
Here's one that does...but not all the time. I also llike to wear a beard and gender-blend a little. Lately, it's been about 7-8 months girl-ish and 4-5 months guy-ish.
.......Laurry
Laurry, I've removed my beard. I probably have about 75% gone. I will remove the rest. I've taken HRT for 4+ years. It makes me feel better. Many females have more hair on their body than I do. I do not plan on stopping HRT. My muscle mass is gone. It is in the range of weak male/ strong female. I have a receding hairline that remains. My voice is not trained and is average male. My undergarments are female. Some by choice and others by necessity. I do present male to the world.
I have not found a level of comfort. I would prefer to do more. I do not like people making fun of me. Some uneducated young minority males make fun of me. It is annoying, rude, and insensitive.
I do not want to go back to where I was and I feel I will be socially rejected if I move forward. I am trying to sort this out in my mind.
Quote from: Nero on May 05, 2009, 06:15:27 PM
now that's the one sappy chick flick i did like.
I liked it when that person bounced off the propeller and you heard a "clang" sound :D
Quote from: wendy
Do some androgynes that were born male want to be pretty and look like a girl? I live as a guy to the world and my wife gets to see someone not guy.
Sure, I think about the possibilites a lot of time time. But i'm a person thats stuck in a certain life role at the moment and there is not too much I can really do about it. The few feeble (and I thought pretty well hidden) attempts i've made in this area have been noticed and met with a fair amount of dissaproval from various family members..... sigh......
Quote from: Wendy on May 05, 2009, 08:48:56 PM
Do some androgynes that were born male want to be pretty and look like a girl?
I'd like to look like a pretty pica, I even manage it on occasion.
I would quite like to look like a pretty girl, but that would take much more effort and heart-ache than it would be worth - as I only would like to be a pretty girl for aesthetic reasons, not for any deep rooted reason. Though being a pretty pica is deep rooted, as is being a scruffy pica. Now scruffy-pretty that'd be top notch.
Pretty doesn't get any prettier than scruffy-pretty, IMHO. :)
Quote from: Pica Pica on May 06, 2009, 04:17:13 AM
Now scruffy-pretty that'd be top notch.
Quote from: KYLYKaHYT on May 06, 2009, 05:05:12 AM
Pretty doesn't get any prettier than scruffy-pretty, IMHO. :)
As opposed to pretty scruffy?
Now I'm thinking about Leather Tuscadero, (Suzi Quatro), mmm, scruffy pretty.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi544.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh343%2Flindalacey7%2Fleathertuscadero.jpg&hash=0a30aec423e3b43af367a818a4b4d55803834d78)
Seriously though, this is an interesting topic. My gf (who's new here and reading alot), recently asked me to explain what is androgyne. I found it difficult to explain/clarify this to her, even more so than some of the other stuff we have been trying to sort out. I was want to explain it's an identity which is a little bit of both female and male, and at the same time, neither, nor the other.
It makes me wonder,,,
Quote from: Linda on May 06, 2009, 07:11:12 AM
Seriously though, this is an interesting topic. My gf (who's new here and reading alot), recently asked me to explain what is androgyne. I found it difficult to explain/clarify this to her, even more so than some of the other stuff we have been trying to sort out. I was want to explain it's an identity which is a little bit of both female and male, and at the same time, neither, nor the other.
It makes me wonder,,,
I set up a userid for my wife but she will not come and talk. She explains to me I am an adrogyne as opposed to me explaining to her what I am. I know one non-op TS that claims she is 60% female and 40% male according to her therapists. She does take HRT, removed her beard is retired and passes. Her wife prefers her as a girl. She is a nice person and very funny. She had been a CD before she retired. She seems very happy.
We have to decide what makes us feel better.
I can understand Wendy why your wife would insist you are an androgyne, it is less scary than the thought the partner she married could actually be a woman. But when it comes down to it the only real opinion that counts is your own. All anyone else can comment on is your presentation.
I think Pica you should so grow your hair and get it cut like Suzi in the above pic in Linda's post.
Thanks Nicky. I would prefer to be an androgyne too. I might be able to continue to mask androgyne. It's scary if I am not androgyne. Most of the transsexuals I know lost their wives, jobs, and home. They seem to be happier in their new gender but it is the last option I would chose. If I shut down again I will try more. I am playing a game of chess with my own mind. By the way the gender issues are consuming at least half my energy day and night.
Thanks for your help. I love talking here but I must try to shift my mind. It is very helpful to talk. Much better than arguing with myself all day. I will try and stay off for a few days. Thanks again.
A provocative question...what do you guys think?
Who are you calling 'guys'? >:(
Actually, I would think we end up on another circular spectrum here. In one place, you have the transsexuals who may be in a kind of denial, or unawareness, and who will be in an androgyne state until they accept or fully realize they must move on into the big end of the pool.
Then there is everyone between the 'possible deniers' and those who may one day accept that they are transsexual but only after a long route of self discovery and possibly changes related to biology and aging. The latter are not denying on any level so much as they are traveling a path of self discovery that will lead them to the TS point.
Should I note that I am not educated in biology on the college level and so should be entirely ignored?
Quote from: Rebis on July 29, 2011, 09:55:14 AM
Who are you calling 'guys'? >:(
I just thought you all looked a bit like this?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.activityvillage.co.uk%2Fpenny_for_the_guy.jpg&hash=ced09ef5231682a60114660cbb64ce43ffc7e6d7)
And since were guys male? Never in my little world...I was trying to avoid using the words 'peeps' and 'folk'.
Quote from: Rebis on July 29, 2011, 09:55:14 AM
Should I note that I am not educated in biology on the college level and so should be entirely ignored?
You should.
I just baking your cookies. - (a phrase I just made up. I gotta copyright it)
I actually have someone similar to that guy in the picture living in my house. He is incomplete, though.
I recently acquired this little lady for no reason I can muster.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F41x%252B6LLKRNL._SS500_.jpg&hash=8e6617f93485cdbb19f02e20abb2f16ed9991107)
she's quite lovely. Do you know if she is free this coming Saturday evening?
I've named her Daisy and she is busy this Saturday because Daisy and I are moving house on Monday.
I want another one called Rosie.
How many times have you moved in the past 3 years?
Quote from: Rebis on July 29, 2011, 10:37:09 AM
How many times have you moved in the past 3 years?
5, and I've had 3 jobs - but I think I'm beginning to settle down a bit.
Quote from: Pica Pica on July 29, 2011, 10:39:36 AM
5, and I've had 3 jobs - but I think I'm beginning to settle down a bit.
I hope so. and you just reminded me I should be looking for work.
I was an androgyne in denial. Till I began coming out as trans 7 years ago.
Quote from: Jav on July 29, 2011, 11:02:31 AM
I was an androgyne in denial. Till I began coming out as trans 7 years ago.
Is there any specific manner by which you worked through the denial? Were you aware of the denial the entire time, or is it something you had to learn about yourself?
i don't really think i'm in denial. i used to think i might be ftm, but something didn't feel right about it. not that i'm a woman, but perhaps that i'd rather be hermaphrodite. or a shapeshifter who could change between a male and female body. or maybe cursed like in ranma 1/2
getting stuck in one gender is scary, i'd rather stay me, whichever gender that happens to be at any given time
"Androgynes as transexuals in denial" offends me as much people who say that bisexuals are gays in denial.
Well, it makes me wonder why an androgyne would necessarily be transsexuals in denial and not cis-people in denial.
Quote from: Pica Pica on July 30, 2011, 04:09:49 AM
Well, it makes me wonder why an androgyne would necessarily be transsexuals in denial and not cis-people in denial.
Interesting thought, but probably because transsexuals are the ones who usually make the statement, and by that logic, they too could be cis-people in denial, so their argument could apply to them as well, just like when gay people tell Bi people that they are in denial, they never say they are straight in denial, as that would invalidate their own sexuality with their own argument.
What I don't get though, is why people don't take people at their word. I mean, I am a MTF, so I have no clue what it would be like to be an FTM and desire to be male, but is someone says they do it is only right that I take them at their word, rather than try to view it through the lens of my desires. Understanding, is not required, only the respect that people are diverse, and their feelings are not all the same.
To say that an androgyne is a transsexual in denial would be tantamount to me saying people don't actually like motorcycles, they would rather be driving a car. Clearly it isn't true, people buy motorcycles all the time, but I don't understand why they do, because I think they are for the most part loud and annoying. My lack of desire to own one though, means nothing to how other people act. My desire to fit more or less into the gender binary of female, likewise has no bearing on how other people think, and why should it?
One could take this as an insult or as a serious question. If an insult it's not much different from the trans wars line that non-op TGs are just crossdressers in denial; it's saying "your concept of your identity is invalid."
As a serious question... it's more interesting. I came to realize I am an androgyne through confronting my feelings about transitioning to female. I realized that no, I am not just too chicken to go MtF. I've been male for 39 years and if nothing else, through force of habit that's part of who I am. (I suspect there's a little more to it than that though; liminality is just part of who I am on a fundamental level. I've questioned myself on this a few times and I keep coming back to the same answer.
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 24, 2009, 05:03:34 AM
i often see women and have little pulls in that direction. I reckon had i been born a woman, I'd have not discovered myself as an androgyne, yet i still would have been one. I think my preferred social roles are female and so I wouldn't have felt the tug of being an androgyne so strongly - i think i would have gone through life as a slightly disconnected woman. So far I have been going through life as a very disconnected man....Now I am trying to be a connected androgyne, which is hard because to do so you have to discover how androgynes connect.
That describes me as well. I think I'd have been a semi-tomboy and probably bisexual, and that would have been my identity.
I fantasize sometimes about having a nice female body, but that goes back to wishing I was a shapeshifter. Outside of those fantasies, I have no interest in going on hormones or wearing breast forms or even dressing too far toward the femme side; if I could choose my ideal form it wouldn't have pronounced masculine or feminine traits. (Except maybe nice long hair because I miss that.)
Such a thought-provoking topic! :O
Just to add a few thoughts of my own...A lot of genderqueers are comfortable with their own body and see no need to transition. Also, in the case of feeling neither gender, why go to the other end just to feel as awkward as before? It's all about being comfortable with who you are. Making the outside you match the inside you.
@Taka - love the Ranma 1/2 reference! :)
I believe it is the other way around, and is caused by the constantness of there being only a binary world.
There are, in reality probably far more Androgynes than transexuals. Transexual is vary limited in just what it means,
while non-binaries have a far larger playing field. The more possibilities, the more probabilities.
That and the fact that one group seems to feel they have to fight the establishment in order to be who they are,
and the other really doesn't give a ->-bleeped-<-. The cis-world for 99.9% of it could care less and have bigger fish to fry.
It is only in the political arena that it appears to be such a problem with the cis. And why their politicians will bring it
up time after time. It makes a good rally point to divert the problems of the real issues that theyhave now painted themselves into a corner again.
Step back and look! It's only in this country and only a group of radicals that are making life miserable.
Ignore them and they have nothing, nothing totake a stand against.
Which is why there are probably far more Androgynes than previously thought.
We just tend to step over their flow of political crap and move on as a whole, instead of 'making a stand'
Mods---this is the sentiment that was taken down with out explanation that amounted to nothing more than 'I don't like it and will not explain why'
that happened the other day. Let it ride, see if there is any discussion that you have a need to be afraid of first.
Quote from: Ativan on July 30, 2011, 10:52:47 AM
We just tend to step over their flow of political crap and move on as a whole, instead of 'making a stand'
Mods---this is the sentiment that was taken down with out explanation that amounted to nothing more than 'I don't like it and will not explain why'
that happened the other day. Let it ride, see if there is any discussion that you have a need to be afraid of first.
I'm a mod but I don't see where you stepped over any line. All sides are valid to express as long as you don't attack a person.
To me, there is not even a binary anymore. Each individual is a 1 in a language where 1 == true. The person you speak to now may not be the same person in the future and yet will remain a true.
Maybe one way to refute the 'Androgynes as transsexuals in denial' notion is to point out that there are a number of people who went the entire transition and then half transitioned back because they learned they had misunderstood their choices (or they changed as an individual often does). This, followed by a large number of gender variant people who never even consider full, if any, transition, should be accepted for what it is. Individuals should not have motives projected onto their actions or desires. Individuals define themselves.
Absolutely no person in the entire universe can define the identity of another person despite their personal beliefs and the depth of their training in the sciences or psychology.
Maybe this post is close to creationism on some level because I'm advocating the acceptance of an individual based on what they desire despite whatever 'evidence' that one sees to the contrary. Really, I'm suggesting removing one's egocentricity in relation to the identities of other people. Remove yourself from the equation.
It's okay if you remark that maybe I should lay off the smack.
Quote from: Rebis on July 30, 2011, 01:53:20 PM
Maybe this post is close to creationism on some level because I'm advocating the acceptance of an individual based on what they desire despite whatever 'evidence' that one sees to the contrary. Really, I'm suggesting removing one's egocentricity in relation to the identities of other people. Remove yourself from the equation.
i support this view. people are a lot more interesting as themselves than as whatever it is one can relate to. figured this out after stopping to think the way other people told me to
To me, there is not even a binary anymore.
In a lot of ways, and for a myriad of reasons, it's either non-existent in many areas now, fast-fading in others. Most of the old stereotypes don't work anymore. I always see sports brought up and there are no doubt lots of guys who don't like it, and a huge number of girls who do. Blame Title IX, I do. So thinking gender has something to do with liking or not liking sports is, in at least many places in our society and culture, no longer valid.
Dad's at work, and Mom's home with the kids ... - when that did exist it only existed for a short time, and for a limited number of people.
Lots of families have moms that make more than dad, for whatever reason.
The old ways of defining things are past their past-due dates.
Im a binary in denial. As in, I just deny I'm binary.
Its sad that discrimination exists in those who should be understanding. Why should I have to pick? Why can't I be the way that I am?