Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello all!
I am 20 (just turned! 22th april) and I am on HRT for 11 months - almost 12!

I am afraid about my face, and people do see me as a guy because of my face.
Sometimes I look very girly with nothing male about me! naturally (Especially after shower).

At other times I want to cry that I was even born (because of the stupid Y chromosome!) and go blind.

here are some pictures.. I put quite a few because I look so different so many times! all of the pictures are from the 30th of march up to today:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi667.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv36%2FgrrUserUnavailable%2FPicture120.jpg&hash=868509e5eb95fe814caa19363e78365481fbc4fb)
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Post Merge: April 27, 2009, 10:58:16 AM

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P.S.! the hair with the black shirt is like this after shower when I put cream.
It never seems to stay, it turns into something like in the first picture, third picture, fourth or last. ;-;

But when I first saw the pictures, I thought another one that does not need FFS, but you asked so here goes.

Two things I see.  Brow bossing could be smoother, and the chin could be smaller.  Thin and shape the eyebrows.  But the brow bossing can be covered by your hair.  As in the first picture.

And always smile, it really changes your face.

Janet

If you say that.. then why whenever I go out I am seen as a guy?
What do I need to do to fix it.. I mean.. you'd usually see a woman as a woman by her face!
I at many times fail to see it in myself, others seem to fail also.

Another thing that you can develop, if you haven't, is something I always say.  "Attitude"  And not the bad kind, the kind that says I am a woman.  The face is a tell, but your attitude of I don't pass ( hate that damn word ) will show through even if you are dressed to the "9"s.

Think, feel, be a woman and the world well read that instead fo the first impression.

Janet

What Janet says is very true!

Your attitude will say more about yourself than just about anything else.  If you "know" you are a woman from the inside, that will affect every aspect of your being.

You will be able to carry yourself in a very feminine way.  You have a very feminine looking face.  Your lips are very full and your smile is very natural.  You have naturally high cheekbones.  Also I wish I had your hair!

I would pluck/wax/shape your eyebrows more to give them a more feminine arch.  You don't need that much makeup though some light rogue on your cheeks and lipstick would help and mascara/eyeshadow to bring out your eyes.

Your face is feminizing quite nicely.  If you have any pictures from before starting HRT, I think you'll see that you have changed quite a bit.

Also, at your age, you have not completed masculine puberty and so you will do quite a bit of feminization as you proceed through your feminine puberty over the next couple of years.

Remember, hon, it takes years for a girl to turn into a woman.  The same holds true for you.

If you did choose to go for FFS, there would be minimal work needed.  Your trache barely shows so you don't need a shave, you could do with a lip lift and brow bossing, but that is about all.

Save your money for SRS, hon.  You'll do fine!

-Sandy

Lip lift?
What is it? ^^
It sounds so fake! do I need it :X? I hope not :X
Doesn't it mess the mouth positioning completely?

As for pre picture..

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I was FAT! :D
Used to be around 70-88 kg for several years.

now I am at about 65kg and dropping ^^ (slowly ;-;)

What do you mean by more feminizations? what can I expect?

Big difference. You're adorable, I love the second to last picture!

Quote from: Lindsey on April 27, 2009, 01:44:14 PM
Big difference. You're adorable, I love the second to last picture!

Thank you ^^

I hate the last one though :D I look terrible in there and very guyish! I wonder how I can look so different between those pictures..

The last one's alright. The only thing that really yells "guy" in that picture is that you can see some beard shadow, which you'll be rid of eventually right? :)

Quote from: Myself on April 27, 2009, 01:36:11 PM
Lip lift?
What is it? ^^
It sounds so fake! do I need it :X? I hope not :X
Doesn't it mess the mouth positioning completely?

As for pre picture..

I was FAT! :D
Used to be around 70-88 kg for several years.

now I am at about 65kg and dropping ^^ (slowly ;-;)

What do you mean by more feminizations? what can I expect?

A lip lift is where the distance between the upper lip and below the nose is shortened and your upper lip is turned out slightly.  That is one of the most obvious tells between a male and female face.  Generally the distance between the lower portion of your nose and the top of your upper lip is less than a finger width for a female.

It does not affect the position of your lips or mouth.  I've had one, I hope it doesn't look too fake!  ;D

You look much better now that you are thinner.  Your skin has become smoother and softer.  And your beard has lightened slightly.  You have probably improved your skin care regimen which has improved your skin tone (less acne).

Your feminizations will include more heightening of your cheeks and more roundness in the temporal regions.  Your nose will become less bulbous and upturned slightly.

Also your body as well as your face will become more feminine.  You will lose additional muscle mass and upper body strength.  It's difficult for me to say whether your bone structure will change much.  Most of the cartilage and bone structure finishes in the mid twenty's.  So there is a possibility that your hips will widen more, though a physician would be better able to judge.  And, of course, your breasts will fill out more.

Overall I would think that you do not *need* FFS.

You are very pretty!

-Sandy

Thank you! ^^

I am feeling much more comfortable now :)

About the skin, I am not using anything.. maybe I should? ^^ suggestions are welcome :)

I was thinking about taking GABA to enchance possible growth still.. like hips and breast.
But I am worried if it can raise testosterone, I tried to look into it for hours! but no luck..

I bought my first bra few days ago.. I thought I was tiny.. I ended with a C cup ^^ band is 34 which is weird and totally against my measurement.. but probably because of the lot of body fat at my belly!

I wonder if they will grow more.. I wonder if they need to ^^ hopefully at least fill a bit more! :)
My mother is 36B.

I realllllly need to do something about my belly and waist, it's hugie and fattttty :D

I am having my first meeting for consulting hair removal next wednesday, 6th of match!

I need cloths :D
I need to drop weight.. (about 65kg now.. and about 164-166cm tall)

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Post Merge: April 27, 2009, 01:26:57 PM

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About the lips.. mine are just about a finger width far from the nose.. right at the top.
Putting my finger in between touches the nose start and the top of the lip so I don't think I need it O_o

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Post Merge: April 27, 2009, 02:37:16 PM

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I would also like to know how you can get rid of those tiny black spots of hair after shaving.. :X

Quote from: Myself on April 27, 2009, 02:22:44 PM
Thank you! ^^

I am feeling much more comfortable now :)

About the skin, I am not using anything.. maybe I should? ^^ suggestions are welcome :)

I was thinking about taking GABA to enchance possible growth still.. like hips and breast.
But I am worried if it can raise testosterone, I tried to look into it for hours! but no luck..

I bought my first bra few days ago.. I thought I was tiny.. I ended with a C cup ^^ band is 34 which is weird and totally against my measurement.. but probably because of the lot of body fat at my belly!

I wonder if they will grow more.. I wonder if they need to ^^ hopefully at least fill a bit more! :)
My mother is 36B.

I realllllly need to do something about my belly and waist, it's hugie and fattttty :D

I am having my first meeting for consulting hair removal next wednesday, 6th of match!

I need cloths :D
I need to drop weight.. (about 65kg now.. and about 164-166cm tall)

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Post Merge: April 27, 2009, 01:26:57 PM

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About the lips.. mine are just about a finger width far from the nose.. right at the top.
Putting my finger in between touches the nose start and the top of the lip so I don't think I need it O_o

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Post Merge: April 27, 2009, 02:37:16 PM

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I would also like to know how you can get rid of those tiny black spots of hair after shaving.. :X

I follow the three rules of skin care:
Moisturize!
Moisturize!
Moisturize!

That really is the best thing you can do for your skin.  Follow morning and evening cleansing and exfoliation and moisturize often.  Also a high value SPF (30 or better) cover as well.

I am not familiar with the use of GABA so I really can't help there.  These are questions best raised with your endo.

You are a 34C after 11 months of HRT?!  You make me jealous!  You may gain more as time goes along, though it does seem odd that you are that much larger than your mother.

If you want to smooth out your skin tone following shaving, use a light foundation.  That should hide much of your facial hair.  As you go through hair removal you will not need as much as time goes along.

Honey, we *all* need clothes!!!  I'll meet you at the mall!

-Sandy

Well I am not an expert in cosmetic surgery, but this is what I think will supplement your look.

To Pass: Eyebrow lift, lip lift, the length of chin (up and down) shorten

To be beautiful (with the other ones as well): Hairline lower, ear surgery (too make it smaller), nose surgery (somewhat too masculine and bulbous), *perhaps* adam apple shave since I see a shadow

Oh and I been addicted to her shows, since it's basic and natural looking (most of them; favorite being Romantic Valentine)
http://www.youtube.com/user/MichellePhan (http://www.youtube.com/user/MichellePhan)

You're almost there, but I am going to be honest, you read more as androgynous (depending on how you carry yourself; make up; fashion). That's not really that great, since I bet you're aiming for the whole natural girl look without any make up, fashion. I think the eyebrows should be shape and more feminine, so that's definetly needs fix (Michelle Phan made a video about that).

I think you're absolutely fine without FFS. By the way, those lips are beautiful! And a little makeup can make a world of difference.

SD

you look like a girl in the freshly showered pics.

I'm going to take a different stance from a lot of the above posts -- I think FFS would really help you feel more confident about yourself.  I don't know about lip lift -- doesn't really seem like you need it, but the areas that stick out to me on first glance (which is the most important glance when it comes to passing) are eyebrows and chin.  The eyebrows can definitely be helped by strategic tweezing.

What would also be helpful is a side-view profile picture -- this is usually the most depressing picture to take (from my own recent experience), because all the male features seem to stick out 100x worse.  But it's also the only real way to tell if you need chin/nose/brow work.

The other thing I would recommend is to check out VirtualFFS (just google it).  They do photoshop simulations of FFS so you can look at the before and afters and decide if its really worth the money you'll have to spend (which reminds me that I need to get that done myself).

I'm not much of a kiss butt, so I'll tell you truthfully. The lips are fine. Thin the eye brows, remove the facial hair via laser or electrolysis. Maybe re-shape the nose...and that's a big maybe

Hmm, ok

Female cues:
Your lips... thats a nice asset you have they are like wow
Nice hair, I think you look better in the first picture. That and the one where you are smiling I feel are the ones where you look like a girl

Male cues:
Brow bossing, its quite prominent
Eyebrows, they are below the brow
Eyes small (again because of the brow)
Chin, its tall and kinda squarish
Scalp, its high
Some facial hair


I feel a t least 2 years in HRT? and then you can have a better idea of what you might need.

Everyone usually says that FFS is not necessary. It's all about how you feel though. If you aren't confident in yourself because you feel like your face looks masculine then I think FFS could be a great decision. I am in a very similar boat as you (10 months on HRT) and I am going the FFS route for sure. Worrying people are reading my face as a guy is the last thing I need to be thinking about. It's really just depends, everyone is different.

Anyways, I think probably chin reduction / shaping, rhinoplasty, brow shave, and scalp advancement. I'm not sure about the lips or forehead from those angles really. I paid for the Virtual FFS (pics on this site) and I was rather surprised by the results, it is something you should consider checking out.

Have you considered bangs?
Prominant brow can be a tell.
Nicely shaped eyebrows (See about salon waxing) and bangs will complete the beautiful woman I see in the pictures.

Uhhh..

First.. Paulina! I never had make up in the pictures, actually I never had make up.
But you're right! it isn't the cloths and make up that need to decide, the face alone needs to be the thing!

I want a female face, period. I want to be seen as a female by everyone even without make up.

My forehead/brow is that bad? I always felt it is disturbing but wow..

Jocelyn! yes, it is about how I feel! I feel I can't read my own face as a girl most of the time.. it's similar.. but I see too much of a guy.
Apparently, people at the mall think the same! they refer as to a guy.. grr while wearing cloths like the black shirts pictures which are not "manly cloths".

I *COMPLETELY* fear going out with girl cloths and then someone would look at my face and think "what!!"
No! I don't want that! I can't live with myself if people see me as a guy.. stupid y chromosome @@..

Jocelyn - where did you get the virtual FFS from? :)

Are my eyes small because of the brow only? or..most people say my lips and eyes are very feminine so I am curious what others have to say about the lips and eyes.

I wonder how I can get money for the FFS ^^ need to start saving!

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Post Merge: April 27, 2009, 11:04:52 PM

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Oh and about bangs!
Everyone is saying that.. so my forehead is probably that bad ^^

I don't like that hairstyle much and it is completely against my senses and wishes!

I think FFS open the door to a lot of hairstyles without being they "needed" to hide something. I like bangs, I have always used them since HS.

Ok, I rechecked your pics and my comments. Indeed your most feminine (and pretty) features are your lips and your eyes.

But with your eyes, your brow "hood" them and made them look heavy lidded and deep. And I was commenting about them being small because normally when you get FFS (depending on the surgeon) when they work on the brow the resulting effects "opens" the eyes.


I do think FFS its a good option. For some its a must if they want to avoid harassment and looking odd (some girls can have extreme male features) for others its most about being comfortable looking in the mirror.

I dont "need" FFS but I want it. And with that to get rid of those pesky and annoying things in my face that sometimes made me feel so ugly and that I look like a boy >.<

Hi Myself,

Its hard to tell from your photos as any good FFS surgeon will want side ways on and 45 degree left / right oblique photos to make a full assessment.

From what I can tell from the frontal photos, you have many typical Male markers, that could be feminized by FFS.

I agree about the hair, the forehead is very long and either bangs or a scalp advance will bring the hairline forward, which will help. You do appear to have some degree of forehead bossing and also orbital rim which may require removal and revision. The level of this is hard to see from the photos.

An eyebrow lift would also help (but wait until these are plucked and shaped first)

Your chin and jaw are not overly male, but could do with some work such as sliding genioplasty and chin reshaping.

Your nose is something I kept coming back to as it is quite wide and imho could do with feminization, through Septorhinoplasty by making thinner and slightly turned upward and yes a lip roll / lift would help.

You have good starting material, so please dont think I am being to critical, you will be a pretty girl.

Buffy

http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/ (http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/) is the site for virtual FFS.

I never see my face as a girl's either and that is the problem.

Quote from: Sebastien on April 27, 2009, 07:47:40 PM

...By the way, those lips are beautiful!

Wow, yes! NOT FAIR!!!

I think... Nose and eyebrows only will do the trick!

You look fine IMHO :)

They have a university in Huddersfield? :o

Compared to what I used to look before FFS, you look fine but since you asked, I'll be honest.

-Brow bossing reduction
-Rhinoplasty
-Scalp advance with forehead reconstruction
-Sliding genioplasty (chin recontouring)
-Don't see any Adam's apple in your piccies but if you've got one, you might as well get rid of it.

Well as one old girl who has NOT had FFS, you could get by without it.  Passing like others have said is so much more then just looking like a girl.  If you look like a girl but act like a Guy, your going to be read as a guy. Period. or a guy in drag.

There are hundreds even thousands of little things that can give you away, that "Tell" others who you are.  It takes a lot of time and practice to get things right.  After 2-1/2 years I still blow it now and then. 

OH yes shape the brows a bit,  Arch them higher from below.  Do a little at a time over days and weeks at first, till you get them right.    Makeup is every girls friend too. A little goes a long way.

That and working on blending into life, IE don't standout by dressing different from the other woman around you.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on April 27, 2009, 12:11:16 PMTwo things I see.  Brow bossing could be smoother, and the chin could be smaller.  Thin and shape the eyebrows.  But the brow bossing can be covered by your hair.  As in the first picture.

Chin and browbossing, yes. And some of it can be hidden by tricks. I use my hair to cover what little brow-bossing I have (which ain't much, but still noticeable to me).

QuoteAnd always smile, it really changes your face.

Definitely. It makes your cheeks fuller and the lower part of face look smaller -- which is more feminine.

if you are serious about getting your ffs, theres a website where you send in your pictures and the person running the site uses photoshop to kinda simulate a general idea of what your face would look like after ffs, there is a price however :S

http://virtualffs.co.uk/ (http://virtualffs.co.uk/)

AWWWW! The pic with your friend was adorable.

I'm sorry if someone mentioned this as I didn't read every reply but....perhaps at your age and being on hrt already for that time your regimen is a little weak or lacks spiro etc.....because I would expect to see more changes.

Quote from: aubrey on May 04, 2009, 03:31:31 AM
AWWWW! The pic with your friend was adorable.

I'm sorry if someone mentioned this as I didn't read every reply but....perhaps at your age and being on hrt already for that time your regimen is a little weak or lacks spiro etc.....because I would expect to see more changes.

I dunno :X
I don't have spiro.. they gave me the other thing.. but the testosterone returned about 45 isn't it supposed to be good?

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Post Merge: May 04, 2009, 02:55:28 AM

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I think it was 45 ng/ml

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Post Merge: May 10, 2009, 11:18:06 AM

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Hello!

I was asked to put profile views.. I finally made them and here they are + some more!
No for weak hearted people or pregnant women! :X

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There are things which hormone can't do anymore and which you'll have to revert to Facial Feminization Surgery

Advice:
Forehead / brow ridge contouring / brow lift surgery
+ Scalp advancement surgery

Jaw contouring
+
Chin contouring

I have found that taking care of your  body ie: working out with light weights and cardio (treadmill  or eliptical) and doing it  on a regular basis,  especially diet will  help in giving you that "edge" not only with  making your physical appearance more fem looking, but  will increase your endorphins and help with your serotonin levels.  It will help alot with your mental attitude and hormonal ups and downs.  I recently had FFS done by the predominant FFS surgeon in San Francisco, CA just 6wks ago.  Imo, you  will  not need and fillers in your lips as they are nice and full..Upper Lip reduction cost me  $2500., you  will  prob need a chin implant..I have a titanium  implant.  Chin along with jawline feminiation ran me $10,000.  You will  imo will need scalp advancement, which  cost me $3500. they will  ususally  do  a forehead lift along with it, but because  you are younger, you may not  need it.  Doesnt even look like you need a Tracheal Shave, as you  dont have any noticable Adam's apple. You might want to considerr Rhinoplasty tho to help feminize the nose. That  cost me $6,000.  You will not need lower or upper eyelid  surgery either, because you have great tightness and no loose skin.  Might want to have the browline done as well.  I know it is a costly procedure having FFS, but the results  are so  rewarding.  I had to have alot of  work done, but  i am kind of a  perfectionist with  myself. I  had two seperate OR days..one on the 6th of May to do all soft tissue work and alittle  lipo on the abs and luv  handle areas 4hrs total in the OR and then  next day on the  7th at 7:30  went under for  just over 10hrs for all the  bone work and  rinoplasty.  I was there for a total of  11 days.  If you were to go  with the same Dr. i  did with what i  said it would cost you around $23, 000.  I spent $53,000, but i needed the  trach shave, forehead lift and under eye surgery, and lipo, which i  do not  think  you need.  If you truely feel that you are TS,  i  would  first seek  out  a  qualified  therapist that  is  experienced with TS/TG and if indeed you are or are sure to go ahead with this, i would see an endo or dr that has experience  with  MTF hormones.  I have  been on  female hormones for a yr now and that along greatly help with femnization,even without having any physical surgeries done, but seek out a qualified hormone dr or endo.  Btw,  please do not take what i say as a drs advice.  I am just suggesting what i have gone through to  get where i  am at today.  I am  in the  process  of  legal name change now, have  scheduled a consult  on cohesive  implants, and am  doing research  on  SRS Dr.   Best thing is to  do lots  of searching on the internet,  talking wih other  Ts's and  using sound  judgement that is  rational  and  well  thought out.  Good luck huh...you'll be ok..0x

Lurking on the female forum. . . what can I say?

You're rather pretty in the last pic. Doesn't look like you need anything done there.

SilverFang

I think you look good -- I thought I mentioned that -- and, looking at your avatar, you plucked your eye brows, which makes a huge difference! I think that was the only thing I was going to mention before.

the eyebrows are a huge thing yeah.

Also, I know this thread is super old :] but Maybe some more creative hairstyles would help you a lot.  Have you ever straightened your hair to see what it would look like?

Actually I like curly hair better, everyone says it fits better on me too.
I did try straightening it.

My profile picture is when I had extremely messy hair again @@.. a friend just wanted to take photos of me for some weird reason!

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Post Merge: August 15, 2009, 02:47:07 PM

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omg just saw those pictures above again.. I just look awful O_o my ears aren't really that huge! :O I hope ;-;

Haha

Funny what a couple months can do huh :]

the weird hair in the pictures was because we tied it especially so we can send it for someone to give suggestions for surgery.. so obviously, it made me look much much uglier than I feel anyways @@..

I consulted Dr O.. something.. and he suggests jaw, chin, nose, forehead reconstruction and scalp reduction surgeries..
I'd love to have it! but 40,000$.. how am I ever going to afford it.. and I really hope I will look girly after that.

People see my pictures and say I look girly already, but I still don't see it in the mirror. and even with full make up, apparently I am still not good enough ;-;

I just had FFS done May 6th and 7th with Dr. O.  Normal FFS usually for sure is browbrushing (bringing down the bone by the brow line).  It is a very sign that a TG is male if it isnt done, then chin shortening and the space between the upper lip and nose should be reduced.  It isnt "uplifting" the lip, but reducing the space between them and it tends to somewhat make the upper lip look fuller.  Also scalp reduction with a forehead lift.  Then jawline feminization and trachial shave (Adam's Apple).  Some ppl also get lower eyelids done to tighten that area, but i dont think you need it. Dr O will also suggest a full facelift after around the 4-6 month period as the skin will sometimes will become loose do to the bone loss.  I have a titanium plate in my chin from the chin work.  Dr. O is not cheap, but he is the predominant FFS surgeon in the US and the best.  If you want him, i would book him asap, as i hear he will retire in maybe a yr or so.  If you do go tell him you want the maximum in the lip space.  My avatar is b4 FFS.  I am going back to shorten the lip space again and chin/lower jawline.  Also reducing more of the scalp line.  He wont charge again for the lip and the chin, jawline, but i will be paying alittle for the reduction of the scalp.  It is very expensive, but  if your objective is to look passable then it is an important  surgery to have done.  Ive already spent 53k on my face.  All together, with FFS, GRS, and Implants.  I will be nearing 87-90K.  This is not counting the 24K ive spent in the last yr for hair removal.  It all depends on how far you want to go.  I am of half european decent, so my hair was dark and dense, especially on the facial area.   

Sorry for reviving this old thread but..

I have my real life consultation with a surgeon in 4 weeks! :)

I am pretty excited, and a bit scared, even though I am not going under any knives yet.

I am trying to decide what I want, so I have something to point out as well as listen to his suggestions.

I been thinking forehead 100%, nose 100% (I heard you have to do nose after forehead anyways, and it gotten a bit wide from estrogens O_o)

Chin.. I want but I don't feel is a must, so 50% (maybe a bit higher) and few recommended jaw, but I am really not sure about the jaw.
It's probably the part I need most help deciding on.

I also wanted to know if there is a way to shorten the lip-nose distance without actually affecting he lips structure, probably like gummy smile surgery (I do have a bit of gummy smile at times but not major).

That's it I think!

I think if I want to do the minimum of the minimum forehead and nose might be enough, but I am not sure if I need chin too.
I think the jaw is fine but probably need second opinions.. and the rest I want to hear his opinions.

It's hard how to imagine it, I sent pictures to virtualffs.co.uk, but it will take a while until she will start to work on them.. can't wait!

hi hun ok ive been a male (unfortunately) for a long time this is what i see in your avitar you are very close to female apperence kind of got the androgenous thing going on. in your other picks i noticed when you appered more male looking your clothing was also more male appearing i e red shirt white t shirt underneath... if i was u id opt for the ffs simply because after it you would be a hot looking girl. your brow ridge is not that noticable yet but getting it done would definately improve your appearence as would a nose job though i think that would be cosmetic only not sure how you would feel about that . also remember do to your age hrt will have a greater effect on you the longer your on it in this case you have time on your side.
hugs and if i wasnt transgender and 20 years older then you id hit on your avitar lol
jessica

From what I see, you'll do well with chin, forehead (which usually includes brows as well), nose, and maybe a scalp advancement. Other than that I think you'd be good to go. I wouldn't touch the lip, since you already have very pouty lips. It doesn't look like you need a trachea shave from the profile pic, but it could just be that pic throwing it off.

If you need a point of reference, the procedures I pointed out were all the ones I had (except the scalp advancement). Chin, forehead+brows, nose, trachea. Since you have a more prominently female look to you than I did starting out, you'll turn out great. You can check out my follow-up post at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,65234.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,65234.0.html) too see my before and after pics for reference on what can be done.

By the way, I agree with people who say that attitude does a lot to help increase your ability to pass. But I'm getting sick of people saying that FFS is only for those who are too insecure about themselves. Yes, insecurity about other people plays a lot into why people opt for FFS, but it's also so that when you look in the mirror you see yourself, and not someone else looking back at you. For those people who say FFS is only for the insecure, why then should any TSs take HRT? Or do anything in the way of body modification to match their true gender? If it's all for vanity, and what really matters is your self-confidence of knowing that you're really a girl, then why not just keep the body you have and tell people you're a girl without resorting to HRT, FFS, SRS, etc?

I know people like to be nice to others, but in my opinion, being nice is being honest with them when they ask for help. Not appeasing them with false compliments. I wouldn't trade the comfort I now have with myself and seeing me in the mirror for anything. Those are just my words of advice, take what you will from it.

~Sarah

Sarah, I totally agree!
It's not about insecurity, I see people saying they are girls or guys and look completely not and they just get hurt or are too.. something and not get hurt somehow.

Even though I get nice comments from picture, I look in the mirror and the face looks like a boy/guy to me.
And to some people outside too, even when wearing unisex cloths.

Sometimes it might seem more people think that way, the other day it might be different..
And that's without me doing anything in particular, being just like anyone else, it's not all about how you carry yourself like people say.

The face is a big tell no matter what, maybe people sometimes act to someone as what they present themselves as but might still feel weird.

I hate it that people confuse me for a young boy and I am annoyed at it that people say I am just insecure or behaving wrong, I am not "nervous" or anything, more like apathy than anything else.

So sometimes people think I am this, sometimes that.. that's annoying and it's not in my mind.

Edit: I forgot to say the first thing I planned in this reply! :O
I remember seeing your topic previously, you look great ^^

Quote from: heatherrose on October 02, 2009, 02:14:33 PMBe careful not to fall into the trap that has been set for our GG sisters which has caused many to harm themselves in the an attempt to achieve societies ideal of feminine beauty.

For me, it's not about trying to attain a level of beauty. I do not consider myself beautiful by any means, but am I more happy because of FFS, of course! It's about trying to attain a level of comfort in one's own body. When I went into FFS, I wasn't doing it to become a supermodel, or to even become close to beautiful. I did it to be able to become physically female - relative to my definition of physical femininity - to match the female I am inside, so that I could more easily socialize in the society that I live in.

Quote from: heatherrose on October 02, 2009, 06:57:05 AMI know girls with near neanderthal facial features, who are secure enough in themselves to tell the world to go play by itself.

If those whom you speak of are ok with that then that's fine. Anyone can live their life how they want, and if they are happy, that's all that matters. I would rather indulge my social capacity as a human rather than cast it off though. I see no point in living a life where you cast off the society in which you live. I thrive on socialization with others. Like in the movie Into The Wild, "Happiness isn't real unless it is shared." What's the point of being happy with yourself if you have nobody to share it with?


~Sarah

Quote from: heatherrose on October 02, 2009, 03:45:57 PMI hope that you are not suggesting that someone blessed with a less than socially acceptable appearance is not worthy of social interaction.

Nope, just living in the reality that for the time being that's how it is, not everywhere and not with everyone, but it's widespread enough to notice. That's not to say that I don't do what I can to change that stigma, but I'm not going to forfeit a happy life to live outside of that.

Life is short, and I don't want to waste any more of mine having to justify to society why I should be accepted. Just like I wouldn't expect that baby to want to go through it's entire life hoping the daily interactions don't focus on just that.

Again, anyone can live how they want to live, and if they're happy living with a cleft lip, or with a male looking face while trying to be the female they are, then more power to them. I'm not going to judge them or tell them they should change, but I'm also not going to let others judge me for wanting to make my life that much simpler and happier for myself.

~Sarah

Why everywhere I post arguments come to live?

I agree with most of what Sarah said, we shouldn't enforce ourselves on other, like someone else said in a post, it's hard to change people's thinking of "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck", people get hurt from it and I doubt it's wise to say "They are wrong" just because someone decided to place a fact which is defying all of what is normal.

And even if people "accept" you, that's WORSE! you want to be YOU, for them you'll, even if unconsciously, maybe be "this, no this.. that's right", or even worse, you might be "that who acts and wants to be .."

If you have the look, no one needs to accept you, you are just you.
No second thoughts, no embarrassment, on top of all, you look in the mirror and see reality, if you have the wrong face, I am not sure what kind of a person you might be if you don't cry at your reflection.
But in my opinion, you don't need society to tell you the truth, most people can just look in the mirror and see it, if not, they either got there or set themselves a bubble.

It's not JUST about looking beautiful, it's about look FEMALE instead if MALE.

It's a WHOLE different meter, the beauty and the sex and people tend to confuse it too often.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4THO9-N--k4# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4THO9-N--k4#)

Now, most people won't act like that, rather just come and ask for the bathrooms or something,
But directed to the wrong one, even that simple scenario (not from the youtube which is all humor. but the simplified one) is a reflection, it's reality telling you "you might be happy, maybe not, but you and reality definitely have some fixing to do.
It can hurt, because you are not seen as who you are, even if you WEREN'T expecting to be seen, it can hurt for many reasons.
And if you correct then "sorry, the men's room? I'm not a man" (the most gentle way I could think of), let's just say usually the guy directing you would probably think you reply is weird, maybe try to look twice, maybe ignore his feeling and correct himself anyway and keep being "???" maybe be rude.

You completely misunderstood me :X

Quote from: Myself on October 02, 2009, 05:36:59 AM
Sorry for reviving this old thread but..

I have my real life consultation with a surgeon in 4 weeks! :)

I am pretty excited, and a bit scared, even though I am not going under any knives yet.

I am trying to decide what I want, so I have something to point out as well as listen to his suggestions.

I been thinking forehead 100%, nose 100% (I heard you have to do nose after forehead anyways, and it gotten a bit wide from estrogens O_o)

Chin.. I want but I don't feel is a must, so 50% (maybe a bit higher) and few recommended jaw, but I am really not sure about the jaw.
It's probably the part I need most help deciding on.

I also wanted to know if there is a way to shorten the lip-nose distance without actually affecting he lips structure, probably like gummy smile surgery (I do have a bit of gummy smile at times but not major).

That's it I think!

I think if I want to do the minimum of the minimum forehead and nose might be enough, but I am not sure if I need chin too.
I think the jaw is fine but probably need second opinions.. and the rest I want to hear his opinions.

It's hard how to imagine it, I sent pictures to virtualffs.co.uk, but it will take a while until she will start to work on them.. can't wait!

That's marvelous.  Good luck & let us know how it goes.

Quote from: heatherrose on October 03, 2009, 11:18:26 PM

No, I understood but you disagree with me.
That makes some think I am a compassionate liar
and an argumentative instigator.

With all due respect, I think you've already  expressed your opinions & gotten answers for them.  Could we now please move on?

I love your Avatar pic! I honestly thought you were female when I first saw it!  :)

Quote from: Tyler on October 04, 2009, 05:15:39 AM
I love your Avatar pic! I honestly thought you were female when I first saw it!  :)

Thank you!!!! :)

I will post updates when I have I think :)

I think I rather have this thread closed.. I seem to have an amazing skill of sparking arguments and tension without meaning to, sorry :)

Thanks for all the helpful comments everyone! I think I will just wait for the virtualffs and doctor for deciding about a jaw procedure or not.

If someone  wants to comment, I'd love to get opinions on that only to prevent any further mayhem..

So far I had some people tell me the jaw is extremely feminine, few said it's "ok/good", a very few said it might be a bit masculine.

So overall I think it's fine (personally I feel quite confident I don't need that, I just want second opinions)

I second that

Quote from: Zelane on April 27, 2009, 10:30:06 PM
Hmm, ok

Female cues:
Your lips... thats a nice asset you have they are like wow
Nice hair, I think you look better in the first picture. That and the one where you are smiling I feel are the ones where you look like a girl

Male cues:
Brow bossing, its quite prominent
Eyebrows, they are below the brow
Eyes small (again because of the brow)
Chin, its tall and kinda squarish
Scalp, its high
Some facial hair


I feel a t least 2 years in HRT? and then you can have a better idea of what you might need.

Quote from: heatherrose on October 02, 2009, 03:45:57 PM

I understand and support the whole "Doctors Without Borders" thing
where the baby receives surgery to correct a cleft lip or similar face deformity
to ease the poor things future interactions with society. I hope that you are not
suggesting that someone blessed with a less than socially acceptable appearance
is not worthy of social interaction. A world basing it's determination, of whether
or not someone is worthy of social interaction, on the individual's looks,
would be very sad one to live in........too late, I suppose.

In reality looks determine social interaction, anybody who thinks confidence is really all that matters is living in a fantasy world.  It is a very much an older transitioner thing to think it is the sole thing that really plays a part.  FFS is not about beauty, its about normalcy.  And I am sorry you have this delusional opinion where it doesn't matter...looks matter quite a bit.  Confidence only goes so far, its the difference between if people treat you as female, or if people treat you as trans. Most younger transitioners know the difference, alot of older transitioners don't, alot of older transitioners buy into the confidence BS, when the reality is people don't see them as women, they see them as trans.  Initial impressions matter a great deal...right now, I will be honest, get FFS. 

Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 09:37:46 AM
In reality looks determine social interaction, anybody who thinks confidence is really all that matters is living in a fantasy world.  It is a very much an older transitioner thing to think it is the sole thing that really plays a part.  FFS is not about beauty, its about normalcy.  And I am sorry you have this delusional opinion where it doesn't matter...looks matter quite a bit.  Confidence only goes so far, its the difference between if people treat you as female, or if people treat you as trans. Most younger transitioners know the difference, alot of older transitioners don't, alot of older transitioners buy into the confidence BS, when the reality is people don't see them as women, they see them as trans.  Initial impressions matter a great deal...right now, I will be honest, get FFS.

I wonder if you said "get ffs" to me or toheatherrose ^^
I find it funny that I am feeling I want to say thank you for telling me to get ffs instead of the "I don't think you need anything" while reality seems to treat differently than that sentence ^^

Quote from: Myself on October 13, 2009, 09:59:50 AM
I wonder if you said "get ffs" to me or toheatherrose ^^
I find it funny that I am feeling I want to say thank you for telling me to get ffs instead of the "I don't think you need anything" while reality seems to treat differently than that sentence ^^

It was directed at you.  If you are like most younger transitioners I imagine integration is very important.  The good news is you may not need as much work as is being suggested.  I would start with a rhino and forehead work.  The jaw and chin is frequently disputable, I have only met a few where its a necessity.  As my doctor said...the nose is at the center of the face.

Sorry for the brutal honesty, I have come long ago to the conclusion many older transitioners live in a fantasy land where first impressions don't matter.  Don't buy it, even for a second.  Confidence only goes so far, and if you are generally wanting to get to a point where most people consider you female and not trans, FFS is recommended. 

some may disagree but I this you should wait as long as you can for FFS. don't rush good thing because they come in good time. When I started transition I weighed 220 lbs. I had just gotten out of the military and I looked like your typical pumped up muscle head. after about four years on HRT the shape of my face changed dramaticly. People say it doesnt happen, it did here.
Just do the basics for now i.e. brow trim and facial hair removal. You look great and should be proud!

Opps just noticed your brows in your avatar, they look great! and as far as brow bossing go. Look at other women. not the Idealized ones either, real women and you see that yours don't look half as bad.

Quote from: sweetstars on October 13, 2009, 09:37:46 AM
In reality looks determine social interaction, anybody who thinks confidence is really all that matters is living in a fantasy world.  It is a very much an older transitioner thing to think it is the sole thing that really plays a part.  FFS is not about beauty, its about normalcy.  And I am sorry you have this delusional opinion where it doesn't matter...looks matter quite a bit.  Confidence only goes so far, its the difference between if people treat you as female, or if people treat you as trans. Most younger transitioners know the difference, alot of older transitioners don't, alot of older transitioners buy into the confidence BS, when the reality is people don't see them as women, they see them as trans.  Initial impressions matter a great deal...right now, I will be honest, get FFS.

I have never heard anyone espousing that confidence is all that matters.  But I have seen some passable girls without it.  They are no longer passable.  That is a shame. 

Do looks matter?  Of course!  Does confidence matter?  Yep to that too.

How would you define older?  Usually when I see comments like this it is from a young upstart who thinks she looks too hot and passes completely.  Look, before you go saying things that sound elitist and offend some of our "older tranistioners" here please think about how you say things.  It is not about brutal honesty.  It is about being offensive in how you say things.  Even if what you say is true, I am afraid you say it in such a way that you will likely not be heard.   I, for one, would like to be able to hear what you are really saying.

This from one of those ancient girls.  Oops, please excuse me.  I dropped my cane.  If you can help me pick it up I will hobble my way out to my FFS.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: heatherrose on October 14, 2009, 08:00:30 AM

You, FFS? Not freakin' hardly! Don't make me trip you.
You know how brittle your old bones are.

Eh?
Speak up, will you?  The hearing is the second thing to go!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Holy crap, people, why are you suggesting she get brow bossing?!!!

Look at this picture again and show me where the eyebrow ridge is -- I just don't see one:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi667.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv36%2FgrrUserUnavailable%2Fmoo020.jpg&hash=a4d78a006084a0d811aa73e841544146cecdbf8b)

Your forehead shape (and I just mean the SHAPE of the BONE) is very feminine. PLEASE, don't do anything about it! If there is anything masculine about your forehead, it has to do with your hairline and eyebrow (as in, the hair, not the bone). Get your eyebrows waxed, play with your haircut, and consider doing something like an eyebrow lift or scalp advance or whatever -- but NOT anything that involves bone contouring.

You could do something with your chin, but you don't need very much. It's a little bit prominent from the front view, but you probably don't want to take too much off.

The areas where surgury could do a lot are in your nose and lips. You might want a more upturned nose and pouty, rather than hooded, upper lip (if that makes sense). Also, you seem to have a little bit of an Adam's apple. It's hard to tell how much, but you might want a traecheal chave.

The things in the earlier pictures that are most obviously masculine are the beard shadow and the large, low, and unkempt eyebrows.

You can look pretty darned good without doing a thing (at least surgically), and you could look fantastic with some work -- but leave the brow bone alone!

I have consulted two people by sending them photos, photos is not like examining the real thing but it give an idea:
One of them was Dr Douglas and the other was Alex from VirtualFFS, who also edited a photo.

Dr Douglas saw the photos posted on this site, Alex saw newer photos.

Here are their reviews, starting with VirtualFFS:

QuoteHairline:
I think the height of your hairline is fine. Women have slightly higher hairlines than men - not enough surgeons realise that. One problem with moving your hairline forwards is that a shorter forehead can make the middle third of the face seem taller - in your case it could emphasise the distance between the nose and top lip. You could move it forwards a little without it detracting much but I don't think you will gain anything other than a scar along the hairline. I have moved it forwards in the fourth set of pictures (d). If you have forehead work and also decide to move the hairline forwards then you could have a scalp advance as both procedures can use the same incision. However, I personally tend to recommend hair transplants to correct hairline problems as they are less invasive and the end result looks very natural. It would probably take at least 2 sessions of "micro follicular grafts" and the first session would be done a few months after any forehead work. You can also have a combination where you have a scalp advance to cover most of the distance but then have transplants to hide any scarring and give a more natural hairline.
Forehead:
You have moderate brow bossing in the centre above your nose but less above your eyes. I have removed the bossing to bring your forehead into normal female ranges. Your forehead is quite smooth with no clear step between the bossing and the rest of the forehead so it already looks reasonably feminine. You do have a step where the bossing meets the nose though and the bossing overshadows your eyes.
Eyebrows:
Your eyebrows are nicely shaped and sit in medium position neither high nor low. I personally do not think you need a brow lift but you could lift them a little depending on your personal preference. I have simulated this in the third version of the picture (c).
Eyes:
I don't see any notable problems with your eyes or the soft tissues around them. You have large eyes in proportion to your face - this is very feminine and a great asset. It is not something you can get from surgery - you have to be born with it.

Nose:
Your nose is already female. You could maybe make a small aesthetic improvement by narrowing the bridge a little, lowering the columella a little (the bit between the nostrils) and removing the slight hump to the lower half of the bridge that you can see from the side. I have simulated these changes in the second version of the picture (b) but they would show more clearly in a profile shot.
Cheeks:
You have full and rounded feminine cheeks. I do not recommend any changes. Hormones will probably enhance them further but as your hormone history is a bit disjointed, I can't really make a guess about how much.
Lips:
Your lips are full, feminine and beautiful. It does look like the distance between your mouth and your nose is a little longer than average, making the nose to lip distance a touch longer than average. As you say, there is a procedure (the Le Fort procedure) that can change the position and height of the upper jaw but I feel that is way too invasive a procedure for you. We all have particular things that give our faces character and I think this is one of yours - your upper jaw does not really masculinise your face or detract from your attractiveness. This area of your face is all about the lips and they are so good on you that I think you should leave the area just as it is and accept the slightly taller than average upper jaw as part of the personality of your face.
Chin:
Your chin is quite tall and slightly square. I have rounded off the corners and shortened it. This is probably the most feminising procedure for you.
Jaw:
Your jaw is within normal female ranges - I do not recommend any adjustments.
Adam's apple:
I don't see an adam's apple problem in these pictures.
Overall:
This is already a feminine face with good skin, large eyes and excellent mouth. The key masculinities are the forehead and chin. Everything else is optional.

And now for Dr Douglas:

QuoteThank you very much for your recent email with the little bit of information about yourself and the photographs. They will all be helpful in giving you what I think will be beneficial to you in feminization of your face. Please appreciate that what follows is an estimate based on photographs alone and will remain so until such time that I have had the opportunity to see you in person, can make measurements directly on your face, and have reviewed the appropriate radiographs. I would want you to obtain these radiographs in San Francisco for I know that they will be completed appropriately for my purposes. I have had extensive experience at estimating surgery from photographs alone and I am usually very accurate. If, however, there is an area of question, I will tend to over estimate rather than the reverse so that if I am wrong it will possibly become less expensive. No promises. I will work from the top down and then summarize this at the end.

Before I begin, I should tell you that I am giving you what I feel would be the best and ideal situation for feminization. What you decide to do is of course totally up to you and we will work with you in that spirit.

SCALP/FOREHEAD:   You have a long forehead and I think you need to have your hairline brought forward into a more female position. A scalp advancement is indicated

Your forehead is masculine and it probably is what I call in my classification system a type III. A type III is not better nor worse than a type I or II, it is just for different anatomical situation. The surgical access, black and blueness, pain, and time of healing are basically the same in all of the procedures. In the forehead procedure the entire brow forehead area will be feminized.  I will also be completing a brow lift.

CHEEKS:      Your cheeks are nice and they are only going to look better after the surrounding areas are feminized. Cheek augmentation is not necessary. 

NOSE:      While you have a nice nose it is a masculine nose and it will need to be feminized. A feminizing rhinoplasty is certainly indicated.

UPPER LIP:      Your upper lip is somewhat long but yet you show a very adequate amount of upper teeth when you open your mouth and before you smile. An upper lip reduction is not indicated. 

CHIN:      Your chin is vertically high, it is  broad and it is retruded. All of these can be corrected at one time in a procedure we call a feminizing sliding genioplasty.

JAW:      Your lower jaw is bowed outward along the sides and the angles are quite full. I do think a jaw tapering angle reduction will help to further feminize your face

THYROID:      I do not see any evidence that you have a prominent "Adam's apple". Therefore I do not think a tracheal shave is indicated.

Therefore, it is my feeling that those procedures that you will benefit from most of all in feminization of your face are a scalp advancement, forehead III, open rhinoplasty, chin feminization and jaw tapering. All of these procedures can be completed at one time and would be completed under general anesthesia in an operation taking approximately 9 hours. You would be in the hospital two nights following the surgery. We would want you to stay in San Francisco for at least another seven days before returning home. You probably will want at least another two weeks before returning to your usual activities particularly if it involves being in front of other people.

I think we can deliver an excellent result. My qualifications, education, and our record speak for themselves. We have completed over 1000 facial feminizations. Our concern for your feminization, well being, and progress is our trademark. We respect your desires and are proud of and stand by our work.

If you want to combine your final evaluation with your scheduled surgery you could do this by arriving in San Francisco at least two days before your planned surgery. On the first day you would obtain the appropriate radiographs, we would meet, measurements would be completed on your face, we would discuss the issues in detail, the radiographs would be reviewed, and surgery would be finalized. The next day, the day prior to surgery, you and I would have appropriate amount of time to talk about all aspects of your surgery, answering all of your questions and hopefully more.

The majority of our out of town patients will spend those two days before and the seven days after hospitalization at the Cocoon guesthouse. This has worked out very nicely for our patients. If you are not familiar with this you may want to look at lynnconway.com.

Mira, my Business Manager, whom I assume you have already been in touch with, will enclose with this letter an estimate of the costs of the surgery. This will include my fees, the anesthesiologist's charges, the hospital operating room expenses and the cost of the guesthouse. It obviously does not include the cost of getting to and from San Francisco, the cost of getting to and from our office while in San Francisco, the cost of your out of hospital medications nor the cost of the radiographs. The radiographs will cost $155.00 USD.

I hope the above is helpful. Obviously if you have any further questions we will be very happy to answer them. You will find Mira to be extremely knowledgeable and helpful about the things that we do.

My very best.

Sincerely yours,
Douglas K. Ousterhout, MD

Dr. O's assesment is pretty spot on. The only thing I would consider unneeded in his assesment is the jaw work. I have a more prominant jaw than you and didn't have it done and it looks fine. Once the other procedures are done the jaw will not be an issue at all. If yours was more square/prominant than I'd say do it, but your jaw is not prominant at all.

I'd love to see the pictures from virtual FFS if you wouldn't mind posting them :-)

~Sarah

Dr. O is right about the nose and forehead, problem is he does the same nose job for everybody, and its one of the biggest complaints.  The jaw is also right. 

I will also say there are cheaper (and better) options out there.  Dr. O is getting older, his proceedures are taking much longer than they should  (5-7 hour proceedures are now 10+ hours...and the longer you are under the more risks there are).  His proceedures are no longer as "unique" as they once were boney surgeries are now very common. 

Quote from: sweetstars on October 15, 2009, 08:11:05 AM
Dr. O is right about the nose and forehead, problem is he does the same nose job for everybody, and its one of the biggest complaints.  The jaw is also right. 

I will also say there are cheaper (and better) options out there.  Dr. O is getting older, his proceedures are taking much longer than they should  (5-7 hour proceedures are now 10+ hours...and the longer you are under the more risks there are).  His proceedures are no longer as "unique" as they once were boney surgeries are now very common.

Do ou mean the Jaw needs work or doesn't? You didn't mention the chin! :O

Quote from: Myself on October 15, 2009, 09:48:57 AM
Do ou mean the Jaw needs work or doesn't? You didn't mention the chin! :O

Sorry, meant the chin.  :P

So I went to the surgeon.

He said chin, "MAYBE" nose and forehead not at all O_o

I honestly went a bit confused because the forehead was pretty much one of the things I was completely sure of, being at home and looking I still think I want the forehead.

He was like, "do you want a forehead like your mother? yours is prettier.. considering the amount of prominence, I don't think we need to operate there""

I wouldn't even put it that way. Most people I have seen who have had FFS (not in person, just videos, pictures, etc.) have looked perfectly presentable beforehand; FFS just made them look better.

So, sure, based on what I've seen before, I would believe that FFS could make you look better, so maybe it's worth it for you. But I agree with the surgeon: leave the forehead alone! You don't "need" to change the shape of your forehead simply because there's no room for improvement. (For elaboration, you can read my previous comment in this thread.)

Quote from: Alyssa M. on October 28, 2009, 05:04:18 PM
I wouldn't even put it that way. Most people I have seen who have had FFS (not in person, just videos, pictures, etc.) have looked perfectly presentable beforehand; FFS just made them look better.

So, sure, based on what I've seen before, I would believe that FFS could make you look better, so maybe it's worth it for you. But I agree with the surgeon: leave the forehead alone! You don't "need" to change the shape of your forehead simply because there's no room for improvement. (For elaboration, you can read my previous comment in this thread.)

I am not sure, I already knew the chin is ok and just needs a little work, same with the nose.
But the forehead, I the way it closes overshadows my eyes, even if not as much as most people, is just too much, in the mirror, in pictures.

I can also clearly see the nose-forehead bump, because the forehead doesn't merge with the nose, the nose slides down and then *bump* forehead*.

I feel it's kinda showing badly in profile photo, maybe like young boys.

My feeling is that it is just a bit too much.

I sitll don't get how you thought I have an adam's apple though O_o

I know exactly what you mean about the shadowed eyes. It's probably the thing I'm most self-conscious about. But everybody's has that to some extent, and to the extent I see it in your photos, I just thought it would be more effective just to do an eyebrow life. As for the nose merging with the forehead, that's definitely something that doesn't happen with most guys, but a lot of women don't have that either; I'd say roughly half, after glancing through the results of a Google image search for "woman's face in profile," and it's not really correlated with beauty or femininity. Comparing with your photo, I'll admit that it's slightly more abrupt in your case than many of the photos from Google, but it's still perfectly feminine in my opinion.

As for the adams apple -- well, they just don't always show up. Everybody adult, whether man or woman, has one to some extent (i.e., a laryngeal prominence), it's just a matter of how prominent, and that tends to depend a lot on the photo (because they sort of move around), so it's more a matter of not wanting to rule it out based on just one photo. Also, I was probably focusing on the photo I refered to, which makes it more prominent than any of the other ones you posted, so I need not have worried.

Anyway, I'm sorry for going on so much. I'm kind of obsessing over this issue these days, trying to figure it out for myself, and I really don't have it down yet (obviously). So thank you for this thread. :)

Quote from: Alyssa M. on October 29, 2009, 04:29:05 PM
I know exactly what you mean about the shadowed eyes. It's probably the thing I'm most self-conscious about. But everybody's has that to some extent, and to the extent I see it in your photos, I just thought it would be more effective just to do an eyebrow life. As for the nose merging with the forehead, that's definitely something that doesn't happen with most guys, but a lot of women don't have that either; I'd say roughly half, after glancing through the results of a Google image search for "woman's face in profile," and it's not really correlated with beauty or femininity. Comparing with your photo, I'll admit that it's slightly more abrupt in your case than many of the photos from Google, but it's still perfectly feminine in my opinion.

As for the adams apple -- well, they just don't always show up. Everybody adult, whether man or woman, has one to some extent (i.e., a laryngeal prominence), it's just a matter of how prominent, and that tends to depend a lot on the photo (because they sort of move around), so it's more a matter of not wanting to rule it out based on just one photo. Also, I was probably focusing on the photo I refered to, which makes it more prominent than any of the other ones you posted, so I need not have worried.

Anyway, I'm sorry for going on so much. I'm kind of obsessing over this issue these days, trying to figure it out for myself, and I really don't have it down yet (obviously). So thank you for this thread. :)

Which photo have you focused on O_o I can't see one in any of them and people in rl tell me I don't have one either.
So I can't be sure where and how you seen it.

I can't see it in the one you posted few messages ago at all O_o maybe you are seeing something you are looking for and isn't there to be see?

About the brow, comparing to most guys, I know I have really small one, some women have more than me, I seen it, but it still bothers me, it probably bothers most of them too. It is rare to have it in women, as it is rare to have it that little in guys.

you won't want this answer, but I honestly don't think you need it

I think all you need to do would be keep your brows thin.. but not too thin! lol, and like someone else said, maybe get bangs.. oh and you looked more feminine in the wet hair, so maybe push it back.

You know when I saw your posts in some of my questions, and I saw your avatar I thought that you were a bio girl. If that is any help.

Hi Elijah and thanks!

I am a bit confused why to wear bangs if the forehead is fine, isn't it against the purpose? O_o

Usually they are worn to hide a man's forehead, but if it's fine and doesn't need a surgery or isn't a man's forehead, why use bangs to hide it? O_o

personally I never use bangs, I don't even like them.

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Post Merge: November 02, 2009, 10:54:00 PM

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I decided not to do forehead :)

I also received permission to change my ID!

I am not sure when or *if* I will do surgery anymore, but if I will it will probably chin, and like the surgeon said "mayyyyyyybbbeeeee" nose :D

Thanks for the help all! ^^

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Post Merge: November 02, 2009, 11:55:55 PM

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I guess I better be looking for SRS :)
My gynecologist told me he saw maybe 5 girls who had suporn operate them and his eyes widened :D it was funny ^^
"He's amazing"