Not all of them. Not me. I am so sick and tired of hearing from somr people I know and actually care about, and their are the ones who don't even know me, yet judge me and assume that being transgendered means I am gay. This would stem from the ignorence and lack of education that so many people lack about us. Because this is not society's norm. So what is the point? They don't understand what it is like to stand in our shoes. I have a friend. A very good friend. She is a nurse, ans we had a discussion about my "decission" to transition, and thinks that it was wrong that I left my kids, and how could I have done what I have so soon with seeing a theripist for only 6 months, and more therapy could have taught me to cope and not transition, and just could have kept going the way I was. She does not agree with what I am doing, but loves me still. Whatever. And just because she had been a labor and delivery nurse for years and had not one time seen a baby born with questionalbe getitals, or no documentation of such, there can't be such a thing as intersexed people. I was ready to blow a gasket.
Then we have all the wonderful people I hear second hand through Pam that believes that we are in a lesbian relationship. This would be from the big lying mouth of her ex husband. Since the begining of our relationship he has called or e-mailed every person that knows Pam whether it be family or friends, crap, I'm surprised he has not taken an add out in the newspapers, and has told them the whole story in his words of course. These people rufuse to read for themselves and learn. Why so many people think that being a transsexual means the same thing as being gay, even when I try to explain.
All I ever wanted was to be a man(pyhsically) and be in a heterosexual realationship. Now that I have had top surgery and have a damn beard, am viewed by the entire public as a man, still, I have to deal with this crap. >:(
Marco
Quote from: Marco on September 03, 2006, 12:08:48 AM
Not all of them. Not me. I am so sick and tired of hearing from somr people I know and actually care about, and their are the ones who don't even know me, yet judge me and assume that being transgendered means I am gay. This would stem from the ignorence and lack of education that so many people lack about us. Because this is not society's norm. So what is the point? They don't understand what it is like to stand in our shoes. I have a friend. A very good friend. She is a nurse, ans we had a discussion about my "decission" to transition, and thinks that it was wrong that I left my kids, and how could I have done what I have so soon with seeing a theripist for only 6 months, and more therapy could have taught me to cope and not transition, and just could have kept going the way I was. She does not agree with what I am doing, but loves me still. Whatever. And just because she had been a labor and delivery nurse for years and had not one time seen a baby born with questionalbe getitals, or no documentation of such, there can't be such a thing as intersexed people. I was ready to blow a gasket.
Then we have all the wonderful people I hear second hand through Pam that believes that we are in a lesbian relationship. This would be from the big lying mouth of her ex husband. Since the begining of our relationship he has called or e-mailed every person that knows Pam whether it be family or friends, crap, I'm surprised he has not taken an add out in the newspapers, and has told them the whole story in his words of course. These people rufuse to read for themselves and learn. Why so many people think that being a transsexual means the same thing as being gay, enve when I try to explain.
All I ever wanted was to be a man(pyhsically) and be in a heterosexual realationship. Now that I have had top surgery and have a damn beard, am viewed by the entire public as a man, still, I have to deal with this crap. >:(
Marco
I know that feeling and so does Gill. Many people who find out about us or learn that we are a couple (Gill and I have a special/different relationship) automatically assume that we are a Lesbian couple and Gill will confirm that this is so far from the truth, we are both heterosexual women. This same topic came up last night when I was in the club with Richard. I told him about my partner Gill and he automatically assumed that we were lesbians. I clarified our relationship and he did apologize for the way he reacted. When i told Gill what had happened she agreed that that people should ask and listen before making assumptions.
It's strange that this always seems to be the assumption, frustrating to say the least, but of course no problem for those who are bi, gay, or lesbian.
Sucks to be us huh!
Steph
Quote from: MarcoWhy so many people think that being a transsexual means the same thing as being gay
Because most people think that sex and gender are the same thing. If one is MTF, they automatically assume that one is a very flamboyant gay male who wants to get rid of their genitals to be eternally
girlish; and the same thing happens when they see a FTM, they assume they are just extremely butch lesbians.
Marco, you know what you are, but I can see why it bothers you. I have also had my recent share of ignorance from a few people, but really, I am not going to keep on burning my liver about it; they are not worth my getting upset.
My psychiatrist says that the best way to deal with people like that is to cut all connection and communication with them for good, so this is what I am going to do.
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
I'm coming to hate the word transsexual 'cause it makes people think of 'doing it.'
The few people I'm out to I've told that it would be a lot easier being gay -- complete everything included nothing else to buy, and I don't have to tell anybody if I don't want to. I can appear normal. But NO, I have to go through transition.
At work I hear people describing something they don't like as, "that SO gay..." -- whatever hapened to the word I remember from 5 years old that meant happy? I'll have to ask my 'ears' (the people I'm out to,) if they've heard of anybody happily sticking the 'gay' label on me. How wrong they are (I have no desire for male-with-male intimacy.)
And if at the end of transition I find myself oriented towards a heterosexual relationship, they'll say, "See, I told you he was GAY!!!" Conversely, if I find myself oriented towards intimacy with other women, I'll be called a loser. It's a game of "You! Can't! WIN!!"
Tink, I second your shrink's advice. Cultivate the people who support you, and stay as far away from the toxics as possible.
Karen
Quote from: Marco on September 03, 2006, 12:08:48 AM
...and more therapy could have taught me to cope and not transition, and just could have kept going the way I was.
What? Disgusted with yourself and miserable? Yeah, that's a real good idea. ::)
Melissa
Meh. From what I have seen I have absolutely zero want to be attracted to only one gender.
Feel free to send those types my way Marco... I promise I won't laugh at them too much. ;)
Hi Marco...
Labels, labels, labels; are they not wonderful things. Society uses them to describe what we are and also what we have done. They can be good labels, or bad labels, they also can't really hurt us but just irritate us and make us annoyed and mad. It is an easy cheap shot to call people a name that they know will temporarily hurt them.
It is what we understand ourselves to be which is important...
At the end of the day, who gives a crap.... I am Rebecca, who is a woman, you are Marco, you are a man.
More than one person has so far said that Gender and Sex are not well understood by the "lay man", that is true. It is not Marco or Rebecca that will ever change that, or be able to get society to change their views on us as a community, actually who cares... I don't!... that is societies problem, I have no problems with what I am....
Neither should you Marco.
Buffy
Becky,
You make perfect sense, but I guess I am just maybe TO concerned what others think. I always have been. To us, we are normal. I always wanted normal, I just wasn't. When you pass 100% of the time it is easy to forget about the few that want to judge and condem. But when it does happen I guess I just come unglued!
Kimberly,
I will see what I can do ;)
Marco
Hi Marco!
Yes, this sort of mindset disgusts me just like it disgusts you and everyone else here.
The perception of the general public seems to be "stuck" on the Gay label for everything that doesn't fit into their narrow view of society.
After I have confided in some people of who I am and what I'm doing they always seem to ask me if I'm gay and if I'm going to get a boyfriend!!! :D I quitely tell them that if I was gay I would have a female spouse or a girlfriend. This really tends to either blow a fuse or make their gears run for quite awhile before their response. "OHHHH I see!!!" say alot of them. Some others just nod and change the subject.
Some rather close friends know I am bisexual but if the entire gamit of people who know who I was also knew this it would tend to reinforce the falshood that MTF/FTM's are "GAY".
Julie
Hi Marco,
You know, I too went through a very ugly divorce. Labels were put everywhere. But fortunately for me, here in CA, it can't be an issue for child custody. Even still, the judge in my case was clearly biased against me. My brother that I scraped off the gutter, when he was addicted to crack cocain, disowned me. I am too immoral for him. He said that "it goes against god", I guess god personally told him so, since he has never been that religious. He also said "are you gay? it's ok if you're gay". I told him I was not gay and he again repeated it "it's ok if you're gay". I said again, I am not gay, I am a transsexual. He said "well you want to be a woman, that means you want to have sex with men". I said "no, I don't want to have sex with men, I am not attracted to men". He again said "well, it's ok if you're gay". After this meeting, he disowned me.
A strange irony is that I am gay, just not the way he thinks of it. I am a lesbian transwoman. This is so far beyond his comprehension, I doubt he will ever get it. The deep conditioning of shock TV like Jerry Springer has pretty much ruined the chance of an entire generation of people to ever "get it". So I have pretty much given up hope about that happening and just live my life how I please.
We can not prevent people from labling and mislabing us, but we can choose what labels we are willing to wear. Make no mistake about this, we are on our own. We are not going to have any type of broad acceptance. We have all watched as the far right has gone after homosexuals and passed laws in virtually all the states to prohibit them from getting married. Since there is no rationale for this, it is simply bigotry. Let us not forget that Hitler did not go after the Jews right away. He first went after homosexuals. They were the first target, because the majority could agree on that, but make no mistake here, once we start targeting groups, it will expand to other groups.
We should change our name from Transsexuals to Wrongbodied. Get the word sex out of it, it's too misleading.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Eliazibeth,
Thanks for sharing that, and that is a good idea about changing our label name to "wrongbodied"
Marco
Marco,
Isn't this the chick that Mariah is living with? Could she possible be feeding her negative opinions to Mariah? It took me a minute to figure out that sex/gender are different. Now it all makes perfect sense and I'm trying to explain it to my husband...wish me luck!
Gin
Posted on: September 03, 2006, 07:20:51 PM
FYI: I don't know what my mood is doing! It still says "happy" in my profile?!?!
There have been a few people at first had thought that of Pat and I. Then after a while they have got to know Pat or myself and they don't think that at all anymore. It is only the people who don't know us have jumped to that conclusion. You know you really can't blame them as they don't know who we are. I know that the people who have known both of us for over 20 years know that we are not Gay and that I'm transsexual and that I have educated these people. Pat and I have worked for the same company, she has been there now 15 years and I retired there after 21 years she still works there and they all have understood what went on.
Sheila
From what I've read on the subject, gay men are all about being men and being attracted to other men. Ask one if he'd rather be a woman and he'll say "NO!" I'm sure the reverse is true for lesbians. But most people don't realize this. Most people find it easier to categorize people within a binary.
Oddly enough, when I came out to my family the majority of them were more concerned over whether or not I was attracted to men... None of them seemed to be very worried over my transitioning, they just wanted to hear for some oddball reason that I was not attracted to men...
As I mentioned to my eldest brother when he asked me if I was gay, I replied cheerfully, "Hell yes, I am gay! I LOVE other women!!" ;D
Quote from: gin on September 03, 2006, 07:21:50 PM
Marco,
Isn't this the chick that Mariah is living with? Could she possible be feeding her negative opinions to Mariah?
Ginger,
Yes it is. No, she is not trying to shed negitive light to Mariah on the subject. We had the converstition on the phone. The funny thing is we had a breif relationship 14 and a half years ago. She knew my story then and had no problem calling me Marco then, she even wanted to pay for SRS for me back then. But at that time all I could think of was I was Mariah's mom, not her dad. Plus, she wanted me for herself, and was willing to pay for it. So it is difficult for me to understand why she has such a hard time understanding me now.
Marco
The last time I fell back, I had a private meeting with my soon to be ex. She had filed for divorce and we were just waiting for the cooling off period before it became final.
I had been beaten. I had come back with my tail between my legs.
The first thing that she demanded to know was if I had had any sexual relations with anyone. I thought that my confession would end any hope of us getting back together. But I was honest with her for the first time. "Yes," I answered. "With who," she demanded. "I don't know, it was some girl who picked me up in a bar," I answered. "She liked me and couldn't believe that I was a guy. She took me to her place and I spent the night there."
A wave of release washed over her face. Yes, I had broken one of the big ones. But in her mind, I had not gone completely over. I was still straight.
I look back on it and I can't help but laugh at the perversness of it all. What a long strange trip it has been.
Cindi
Hmmmmm I had already divorced. I was living on the reservation when I met my second partner. Finally for lack of work or should I say the closest place to the reservation I could get gainful employment was 30 miles away. We sold the house and moved into town. That ended up being a ten year relationship before we separated. You see I have never really been sexually active and wasn't really interested in sex. I discovered she running around on me and found out where the guy lived and I just walked on up there and the door wasn't locked and i just walked in and caught them at it. I didn't say one word I just turned around and left. By the time I got back home I thought to myself, well I wasn't able to give her what she wanted so I can't blame her. Next day when she showed up at our apartment I had all her stuff in garbage bags waiting for here. That was it but we saw each other on different occasions even had coffee together so it wasn't a nasty separation.
Two years later I went full time and next thing I know I gets a phone call from here, she was all excited at wanting to see me as a woman. So I obliged her and went to visit her, wow she was all over my praising me as to how good I looked. Even now I am sixty and I look twenty years younger. Anyway here is the clincher, She told me that she had suspected I was transexual I remembered on different occasion she said I would look good as a girl, but I had kind of just let it go through one ear and out the other. Am I gay? certainly not, I don't have any desires to have sex with a guy or a girl. I am presently married with a Tgirl so if anything that would make me a lesbian.
*Scratchin head* hmmmmm, Is being lesbian the same as being gay? Oh well I'll just change my mismatched socks for a different pair of mismatched socks is all
Cin
Cin
Quote from: Tinkerbell on September 03, 2006, 12:47:17 AM
Quote from: MarcoWhy so many people think that being a transsexual means the same thing as being gay
Because most people think that sex and gender are the same thing. If one is MTF, they automatically assume that one is a very flamboyant gay male who wants to get rid of their genitals to be eternally girlish; and the same thing happens when they see a FTM, they assume they are just extremely butch lesbians.
Marco, you know what you are, but I can see why it bothers you. I have also had my recent share of ignorance from a few people, but really, I am not going to keep on burning my liver about it; they are not worth my getting upset.
My psychiatrist says that the best way to deal with people like that is to cut all connection and communication with them for good, so this is what I am going to do.
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Well stated Tinkerbell ! as i see it that is the hart of the ishue !
but I must add..... Marco you gott'a take the attitude of who flipping cares ? seriously
if they want to think one way you're not going to change the way they think without a serious struggle.. and it doesn't sound like anyone of them are worth the effort !
take the Male attitude of SO FRIGGING WHAT ! .... let them say "Oh My they must be having some Kinky Lesibian relationship" ... tell them YAH ! eat your Hart out Suckers !
...heheheh
the point is ... stop worrying about it ....its not worth your time ! be so strong that its not worth your time to even consider it.... thats what a GM would do.... you gott'a dummy down ! kiddo !<GRIN>
Ignerance about sexual things is going to be with us as long as there is a bible in our socioty.... as long as sex is viewed as nasty and bad you will have people that don't know Nutting about it at all.... because....well.... its SEX ! EEEEP !
...
the avrage person out there knows so little about SEX or the related gender ishues that they know that a lesbian is a girl that likes girls.... And that is the total extent of their resivore of knowledge....
and if thats the case their not worth your truble to educate them...
I mean I am all for teaching the general public... but not at the expense of messing Marco up because Marco can't figure it out... FOOIE on all of them Marco ! <grin>
...just relax buddy and quit worrying about it !
.....
my 2 coppers!!
Bob........
I usually hear the statement that trans=gay from the older gay male crowd and the religious conservatives in my area.
Both groups do not want to be educated so I am just waiting for nature to take it's course and watch them die off.
Gays and lesbians get the inverse of that from ignorant folks too: "he just wants to be a woman" or, "she just wants to be a man". Equally irritating for them.
Dennis
There's 2 things that are implied that really irritate me about the above statement.
1. A transsexual is not really the gender they identify as and never will be
2. Transition is done purely for the sexual motivation and benefit of being with a man.
My thoughts on that regarding myself are "I guess you're right, I do love being with women", which shoots down both assumptions.
Melissa
It's simple..I wanna be a man...and not just for sexual reasons..I want to have a child one day that will not suffer because of my past...that's why I could never think of myself as a lesbian. I respect them but I don't belong there...I respect women with (socially assigned)male behavioural characteristics...(army,police..etc.) ..most often it's not strength but strategy that matters..
Ok I'm a bit offtopic..will shut up now
buddy Andre
Think of that statement first.... Transexuals are just Gay..... that comes from a person that obviously doesn't understand ....period. they don't know what a transexual is so they are trying to put a Lable on it for identification purposes...
its better to let them know that a transexual is not a gay person but a person of one sex in the body of the other sex.... it has nothing to do with sexual fanticies or preferance, likes or dislikes.... its something completely seperate.
Now with THAT ground rule layed out you can proceede... some may well go off to be gay, and some may not ... but it is a seperate thing to be Transexual and to be gay
....I think its a natural secqueance of events for a Transexual to become BI in their transision. once fully transisioned it would also be natural to become completely GAY from the outsiders view point. another words transisioning to female you would like males and transisioning to male you would like females....
thats only natural, weather or not it happens or not depends completely upon the person. and a great deal of time .
..."Transexuals are just Gay" sounds like a statement from the 1950's all brawn and no brains, Macho all the way.... the world is black and white and no shades of grey...
.... geez sounds like my father ! <blush> hehehehehhe
Not a statement of Extream inteligance... so when you hear it "laugh out loud" because it is a silly statement ! and only denotes the persons ignerance who says something like that.
.....
My 2 coppers!
Bob.....
It may be ignorance Bob, but that doesn't mean it still isn't hurtful.
Melissa
Meh. I see no reason why I should be hurt from other people's ignorance.
The point is if you know they are wrong and they do not why be hurt?
What part did you have in their education?
WHY be hurt for their point of view?
*shrug* Perhaps I am missing something...
While it's easy to look at it objectively from a logical point of view, there can be some unrealized hurt that may be dealt.
It's like somebody calling you a name. You know the name is unbefitting, but just by itself the fact that you were called a name may be hurtful. You may begin to question yourself.
I'm not talking about myself, but more emphatically towards others.
Melissa
Quote from: Kimberly on September 06, 2006, 04:45:09 PM
Meh. I see no reason why I should be hurt from other people's ignorance.
The point is if you know they are wrong and they do not why be hurt?
What part did you have in their education?
WHY be hurt for their point of view?
*shrug* Perhaps I am missing something...
Very true Kimberly but while we can often ignore and tolerate the ignorance, it's the words that are sometimes hurtful especially if they are directed at a person. Obviously this is not in all cases, as being thought of as gay or lesbian is not the end of the world. However, change the word "gay" to pedophile, pervert, sex maniac, pathetic, lowlife, and you get the drift. Ignorance can have devastating consequences.
Steph
Yeah, I know. But the above is what runs though my head.
I REFUSE to be held hostage by them.
An THAT is what I always end up with.
An yes, I hash the situation out a thousand times to justify who was right.
An you can always feel the hurt. I do not think there is such a thing as unrealized hurt, unacknowledged, yes.
Meh. Don't mind me. Sand in the wind and all that.
Posted on: September 06, 2006, 03:04:21 PM
Quote from: Steph on September 06, 2006, 05:01:07 PM...
However, change the word "gay" to pedophile, pervert, sex maniac, pathetic, lowlife, and you get the drift.
...
*sigh* No,
for me, the word used changes nothing.
Chock it up to a
difference of opinion.
Look, to me the whole thing is just people that know me, should know me. Know that all these years of being trans through conversations of when I lived as a man the first time, knowing everything about me and that I have been with only straight women and never identified as lesbian, needs to count. I don't have this problem with outsiders. Not now. When I was married to a man and outsiders found this out and also that I had kids they were very surprised, asumming I was gay because of my physical appearance. It didn't bother me so much then because I was not transitioning then. This is here, and now. And I expect everyone around me to see me for who I am. The only ones who will be cut any slack are my kids. Period.
Marco
Quote from: Kimberly on September 06, 2006, 05:06:50 PM
Yeah, I know. But the above is what runs though my head.
I REFUSE to be held hostage by them.
An THAT is what I always end up with.
An yes, I hash the situation out a thousand times to justify who was right.
An you can always feel the hurt. I do not think there is such a thing as unrealized hurt, unacknowledged, yes.
Meh. Don't mind me. Sand in the wind and all that.
Posted on: September 06, 2006, 03:04:21 PM
Quote from: Steph on September 06, 2006, 05:01:07 PM...
However, change the word "gay" to pedophile, pervert, sex maniac, pathetic, lowlife, and you get the drift.
...
*sigh* No, for me, the word used changes nothing.
Chock it up to a difference of opinion.
I guess :)
Steph
Very true Milissa !
so toughen yourself up and let that sort of thing roll off.... like water on a ducks back!
very little about my fellow man is GOOD sad but true... so we must arm ourselves with a thick hide and a strong back.
you could alwayse just punch some guy out for saying that Milissa but I doubt that would cure a thing but give you alot of sadisifaction... and to be quite frank it doesn't matter what sexual perswasion you are.... its none of their business anyway...
Handleing the day to day life Normially... is hard enough to add transexuality to the equasion makes it even harder.... its a wonder any of you come out of it with all of your oats in your feed bag ! ....
I had it easy in comparison to what you have to put up with ... I dunno how you can do it.... but I do know you have to be strong, and tough to put up with it !
While i was working for a liveing i had a saying... " Life is a Joke ... don't take it too seriously ,because you can't get out of it alive ! "
but i have sense changed my tune to one of a diferent color... one without sayings...
one of actions instead of words... i don't alwayse do it but i try...
....
this just popped into my head..
" help where help is needed, sympthy where due,
Love in ALL cornors, and compashion for you...
Never be discouraged, till the battle is done.
there is alwayse tomarrow for the race to be won.
Put on your best armor and take up your sharp sword,
for life is a crossing thats not easy to ford.
For arrows will asail you, your armor to pearce,
your determination be steadfast, and your countinence fearce.
Life isn't easy I'm sorry to say,
it will hurt and torment you to the end of your day
but giveing up.... is no answer true !
be strong and stout harted, is the answer for you!
You can be stronger than you'll ever know
to brave the wilds and push through the snow.
take pride in your being, your hopes to full fill
you are one in a million, let your doubts be still.
( I'm a Poet and I knowit, My feet showit their Longfellows.... <wiggles his toes> )
Remember , If you Think you are worthy of critisizems YOU WILL GET Critisizem!
if you think of your self as less of a person than most you will be treeted as such ... the socioty we live in is a very unforgiveing place... aproach it like the warrior it is.... take no chances, show no weakness... face it as an equil that carries a big stick.
You are what you make yourself to be....Inspite of life...
more coppers!<grin>
Bob........
Posted on: September 06, 2006, 05:31:19 PM
geez I type slow in the time it took me to respond 5 other people posted ! HAHAHHAHAHA
What Kimberly Is saying is correct. right down to the wire, You must alow someone to hurt your feelings.... its a Permission given sort of thing....
IF you care nothing for the individual it is easy to say so what to his comments right ?
its those that are close to you that you have given "Permission " to that realy hurt the most....
the cure is tighten up the noose on the permission !
Kimberly can be as detached as a doctor at times... and uses this detachment for her benifit... a nessarry skill in life I think.
I wish I could master it so well ! <GRIN>
....
someone yelling "Hay Freek" out the window of a speeding car should not hurt your feelings in the least. just an aframation of mans total deparvity !. thats all.
if Your feelings are constantly being hurt YOU are at fault... not for the coments but for them bothering you in the first place. understand ?
it takes a thick skin to survive...
Bob........
Marco,
Dude really need not worry, if your life goes as I suspect it will, only a idiot would even bother calling you a lesbian, because quite simply the world goes with what they see, and those who are doing this BS will look like total fools in the eyes of people in very short order!! And they will feel like fools themselves. Get the fools out of your life, period. You owe no one but yourself and your kids and your true friends anything.
Peace,
Taylor
Quote from: KarenTink, I second your shrink's advice. Cultivate the people who support you, and stay as far away from the toxics as possible.
Karen
Thanks so much, Karen. I started doing that about two years ago; it is not easy to tell you the truth, but in the long run it will definetely be. ^-^
Thanks very much you for your concern! :)
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Hello, Everyone,
Last week was the first time that I posted on here and in my eagerness to share something I made two huge errors and broke at least two rules.
1. I posted a link in the wrong place and in the wrong way;
2. I did a quick cut-and-paste of an article. Although I gave the source I did not have written permission.
I did wrong.
I hope that I am doing this right.
TS Roadmap has a page that deals with being gender dysphoric, TS, wrongbodied and homosexuality. The notion of autogynophyllia, the basis for calling transsexuality gay, is discussed there.
This was the article that I cut and pasted. Since being duly advised by our moderator I went to the owner of TS Roadmap. She wrote to me advising that I should have taken an excerpt and told where the rest of the article was.
There is also an organization that advocates fair legal treatment and medical help for gender dysphoric people, transsexual people called TS Symposium. Some might find it informative.
How did I do? I hope that I broke no rules.
Thanks.
PK
Ah, this was confusing to me for a long time. I've always known I was gay, but I just couldn't express how being attracted to men meant I was gay if I had a woman's body... So for me it's the reverse, when someone says I must just be gay, they're right, but not the way they think they are.
PK, you did fine.
Mikko, I think it would have been easier figuring out what was wrong with me if I had been attracted to guys growing up. Oh well. :eusa_wall:
Melissa
Quote from: Melissa on September 09, 2006, 11:15:26 AM
:eusa_wall:
LOL I am beginning to love this little character here! cute and funny! :D
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Posted on: September 09, 2006, 01:10:20 PM
Quote from: Melissa on September 09, 2006, 11:15:26 AM
I think it would have been easier figuring out what was wrong with me if I had been attracted to guys growing up.
Melissa
It is never too late to start! ;)
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tinkerbell on September 09, 2006, 01:12:27 PM
Quote from: Melissa on September 09, 2006, 11:15:26 AM
I think it would have been easier figuring out what was wrong with me if I had been attracted to guys growing up.
Melissa
It is never too late to start! ;)
I assume you we're referring to figuring out what was wrong with me. :)
Melissa
Quote from: Melissa on September 09, 2006, 03:43:55 PM
I assume you we're referring to figuring out what was wrong with me. :)
Melissa
No, I was actually referring to "your always there" ability to like men! :D
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Doh! I typed my response wrong. I meant to say "weren't" instead of "were". Yeah, I remember long before I accepted that I was TS, having this weird urge to kiss a guy from time to time. I didn't know what was wrong with me. ;)
Melissa
But NOW you can Melissa ! thats the whole point ! you gott'a tear down those berriors that you built up as your other self.... and get rid of them because they no longer fit the siduation... You are all Female now and its OK.... where before it was weird... Now its Weird Not to .... you have changed... and so must your thinking too !
....
Bob........
Marco, it's so much easier to stick your head in the sand than face reality and get educated. Why change a life of ignorance, prejudice and intolerance just for you? C'mon, get real man! They like their world of ignorance! They fear change. They fear knowing the truth. My god, what would happen if they actually took the time to get educated? They might find that all those years of prejudice and intolerance were a waste and that they were dead wrong! Their ego can't handle that.
This is one of the things we just have to deal with. We are the tolerant ones. We are the educated ones. We are the strong ones. It's our responsibility to stand in the face of ignorance and intolerance and not waiver. And each time we do that someone gains a little knowledge, someone eases their prejudices, someone becomes a little more open minded.
One day the TGs of the world will look back on the road we paved for them and thank us for doing what we did to make their world a better place to live just as we do today when we look back at the pioneers who went before us. And that makes what we do pretty important.
Julie,
Well said. Thaks
Marco
Indeed !
Very well stated Julie... you said in 2 paragraphs what I couldn't say in a chapter or two !
and you did it without cussing or anything like that ! I am Amazed ! Yu are a very good teacher Julie ! <grin>
the most important thing is that they DON'T want to know... because they Like their Predijustes... but slowly , over time they will learn to be more open minded... Life in general will teach them that !
... Well done Julie
...
Bob.....
I know plenty of gay men, none of whom have any desire whatsoever to be women.
Some people in our society equate any deviation from a narrow view of gender roles to be "gay". And this frightens the hell out of them.
Many years before I became aware of myself as transgender, I came out as gay. At that time I had nothing else to relate as to why I wanted to wear a dress. By the time a few more years had passed, I'd come out as every letter in LGBT :)
zythyra
Of all the people I've come out to, only two - my daughters - haven't ask what my sexual preference is within five minutes. (Daughters never want to know anything about a parent's sexual activity so it's 100% lol.)
I simply tell them that if this was about being gay, I could save a lot of money and pain, and that gay would be easy compared to this. This seems to work but I also follow it up with "sexual preference has nothing to do with gender identity as a "male" can be hetero-, gay, bi-, etc.
As for the name calling, I grew up being picked on. [It wasn't until my senior year of high school that I reached 89 lbs, after all.] In those days, you could have told me a hundred times that it shouldn't hurt to be teased but it did. In my forties, someone said to me: "There are no victims, only volunteers." They told me no one can hurt you without your permission. I don't know why, but it clicked instantly.
As I near my coming out at work, I know there will be a few individuals that will be merciless. I now look back at the anguish I suffered during my childhood and the advice I received in my forties as very fortuitous. I'm not Christian but the phrase "forgive them for they know not what they do" often comes to mind and brings a huge smile to my face ..... just before I turn and walk away!
Shayna
... transsexuals are just gay....
I'll proudly stand with a gay,
poor, down trodden, or disabled
They can call me one of "those".
I'll abide proudly with the scourge.
I'll be buffeted bythe worst;
of them and for them.
I'll extend my hand of love and charity
to everyone,
not measuring their want.
And when the curtain call is made,
I'll be the last to show.
I'll make sure that no one stands
in the dark alone
crying, hoping, or wanting.
Cindi
Quote from: veronica06 on September 25, 2006, 10:55:39 AM"I" don't do men..coz I is a men...in body..and after 50 plus years,,I have seen all the disgusting things men do.
ya know what I mean?
I completely understand! :)
Reminds me of a joke I'm rather fond of that illustrates how men - gay or straight - are unlike women. (I hope it's okay to share here.) A young man is eating dinner with his parents, having recently come out to them as gay. The father asks how exactly things work between the son and his boyfriend. To which he replies, "you know all the things you want to do that Mom won't? That's what we do."
Veronica,
If you are refering to the title of this post, it is not a phrase, and it is not always true. I started this post because of some stupid, ignorant people I have to deal with from time to time, thankfully from a distance. I just wanted to clarify that. What happens here in the threads sometimes is they get slightly off topic, and if you don't read the whole thing, one might be misinterpited. K?
Marco ;)
Marco:
I agree with you 100% my handsome brother. :)
All:
If I was to take offense (which I do not) at being called gay, queer, ->-bleeped-<-, blah blah it would be because i would certainly believe that being gay is offensive or wrong or both ;)
Why would anyone think that there is something wrong with being gay, would you tell that to a queer person at his/her face?
I know that we get not much respect from the gay crowd in person unless is for political alliances and straight people bashing ...
We know what is like to be ourselves as confusing as it sometimes seems.
Love no matter what life throws at you, sheila18
Shelia,
would you tell that to a queer person at his/her face?
I know plenty of people in the world that have no problem telling a person that is gay that they are wrong or that they are sinning and going to burn in hell etc. So yea, there are those that will and do!
If I was to take offense (which I do not) at being called gay, queer, ->-bleeped-<-, blah blah it would be because i would certainly believe that being gay is offensive or wrong or both
I know people that are TS that do feel it is wrong to be gay and do not want to be connected to the "gay" community at all. Due to their religious beliefs or just their personal beliefs. There are conservative TS people that see things much like parts of mainstream society does and they make up part of our community even if some don't like it. I often find it interesting how the community seems to want to reject those that have conservative views from the TS community. They are more a part of the TS and IS community than someone that is just gay or bi.
I am and will forever be opposed to the whole merge of GBLTI. It is a political move that was for the greater good of the GBL and causes much mis information to the general public to what T and I is about. You bet people find it offensive being called something they are not. Is that not what we all dealt with that are truly TS or IS?? Have I and others not fought hard against being mis labled? Why is it so politically wrong for those of us that are strait to not be associated with a group that we are simply....not associated with?
Now I would just love some moron to come along and call me gay! I would give them a educational lashing that would send them spinning for months!
Yea Shelia your right I do I find it offensive, but I have every right to, after all I did my time years ago being called something else I was not...a girl. And I love girls, so I doubt that it is due to some bigoted way of thinking that I found being called a girl offensive back then as I find being called gay offensive today. Neither fit and I will reject it.
Don't get me wrong, I am not anti gay. If someone gets that impression from what I have written here, then you are missing my point!
Well this is just my three cents worth. Please don't feel I am attacking what your saying, it is not my desire, I am just responding from a totally different view point. It is intended as a respectful response!
Peace,
Taylor
Well stated Taylor !
...
Bob,,,
If I was to take offense (which I do not) at being called gay, queer, ->-bleeped-<-, blah blah it would be because i would certainly believe that being gay is offensive or wrong or both
---------
from taylor text;
=============================================================================
what my personal issue is,..is that I do not want to be included in that pidgeon hole. I am straight. just because the majority of joe public feels if someone is changing over..they MUST BE gay...
sorry. not me.
no matter how you cut the cake..my dna will always be male..but I do not do male.
I just personally resent being referred to as that label.
if someone else feels he/she IS gay..goodie for them. I hope they have a wonderful life, and find much happiness.
just don't put ME in there, just because I may change over...
and the foot note is;
I may indeed do that castration/penectomy..thingie...
remove the male member and it's twins below..
but I seriously doubt I ever think about having,..a medical made looking female genitalia.
why? because--------------in my mind here? it would imply sex..and I have no desire to ever have sex the rest of my life.
I plan on..being alone the rest of my life. I find I like my own company better than having someone else around.
call me mean and obnoxious. call me walked out on humanity..
may be correct.
accuse me of leaving behind all-the-wonderful-things of love and romance.
and I say------------BAH HUMBUG!
but hey?
it's my life, my game, my rules.
take care out there/.
This quote from "Conundrum" by Jan Morris really turned on a light for me on this subject:
"Whatever the cause, there thousands of people, perhaps hundreds of thousands, suffering from the condition today. It has recently been given the name 'transsexualism,' and in its classic form is as distinct from transvestism as it is from homosexuality. Both ->-bleeped-<-s and homosexuals sometimes suppose they would be happier if they could change their sex, but they are generally mistaken. The ->-bleeped-<- gains his gratification specifically from wearing the clothes of the opposite sex, and would sacrifice his pleasures by joining that sex; the homosexual, by definition, prefers to make love with others of his own sort, and would only alienate himself and them by changing. Transsexualism is something different in kind. It is not an act of sex at all. It is a passionate, lifelong, ineradicable conviction, and no true transsexual has been has ever been disabused of it." p.8
Veronica,
You have completely MIS quoted me! If you look you will find that the words you are assigning as mine, are in fact a quote I took from the post I was responding to.
Peace,
Taylor
I really can't fault the public for confusing gays with transsexuals. Consider U.K. town cheers male carnival queen (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,6427.msg48368.html#msg48368) for example.
Quote from: sheila18 on September 26, 2006, 01:36:17 AM
All:
If I was to take offense (which I do not) at being called gay, queer, ->-bleeped-<-, blah blah it would be because i would certainly believe that being gay is offensive or wrong or both ;)
Why would anyone think that there is something wrong with being gay, would you tell that to a queer person at his/her face?
Sheila, I assume this was mostly directed at me. I will go into detail about how I arrived at those conclusions.
"Gay" is the term used to describe a person who is sexually interested in other people of the same gender. The only way this would be true for a transsexual is if they were interested others of the gender they identified as. For an MTF, this would mean the transsexual would only be interested in women and the word "just" would be unnecessary. However, "gay" is typically used to specifically describe a male interested in other males. This would imply an MTF is male and always will be, otherwise after transition they would be straight and wouldn't be "just gay", which is how I arrived at the first statement.
Quote from: Melissa on September 06, 2006, 02:09:20 PM
1. A transsexual is not really the gender they identify as and never will be
Secondly, transsexuals sexually identify as being attracted to all sorts of people. Many of them start out as liking the opposite "physical" sex and therefore the idea of being "just gay" is completely makes no sense. The only way it could even start to make sense is if a male was attracted to other males and is transitioning just so "he" can be with men without the social stigma that gay men face. This would be a purely sexual reason for transition and that's how I arrived at my second statement.
Quote from: Melissa on September 06, 2006, 02:09:20 PM
2. Transition is done purely for the sexual motivation and benefit of being with a man.
The statement of this topic was actually said to me by somebody the minister of my church at the time. She continued with saying I really wanted to be with men at the time and that I was only gay and that was the "real" reason I wanted to transition. If I only wanted to be with men, why would I need to transition? Why not just declare myself gay? Many men do that.
If my interest was in being with men, and I was a woman, I would be straight. By saying I'm interested in only being with men and that I'm gay, that implies, I am male regardless of what transition does to me and the fact that it is for sexual movitivations is implied by the fact that I'm doing it to be with men. Well, at the time, I had no interest in men. Therefore, my sexual preference was not a motivating factor.
Being male or female all depends on how you define being "male" or "female". There are a number of factors that go into this equation such as gender identity, chromosomes, hormones, anatomy, gonads, internal organs, etc. A MTF transsexual after transition will be female in identity, hormonally and anatomically. She will lack a uterus and ovaries (there are many other women who do as well) and she will always have the chromosomes, but if we take all factors into account, this person would be female.
Additionally, I have no problem with other people that identify with being a gay male. In person, I have many friends who do so, which actually rivals the number of TS friends I have. However, I do have a problem with being called a gay male. Why? Because it attacks the very foundation of my being.
If you have no problem being called a gay male who just likes to dress up in women's clothing (essentially a drag queen), then you're entitled to that opinion. By the way, we are ALL entitled to our own opinions.
So this is the basis of my "faulty logic" and why I don't just say "anything" to feel smarter than others. There were actually very well thought out reasons behind it.
Melissa
kate:
honey, always on target 8) , love it you're right it doesn't help.
hi everyone:
In the last month google search engines directed me to Susans 3 times while seeking information on music and general news. We are widely read, imagine that 8)
bob, taylor, veronica i did not feel attacked in any way. If you'd had read my posts overtime you'll know that i am not 'that delicate'. Thank you though for being cosiderate but don't worry not that you are but... The thread and pots are not about my feelings or my hurt inner child. :D :D
My post was not a response to anyone in particular but a comment on:
Quote from: veronica06 on September 25, 2006, 10:55:39 AM
but this phrase ticks me off..a bit.
ok. being anal here..BUT
if anyone ever accuses ME of gay...will..WILL get an aluminum baseball bat upside their head.
I realize that the spirit of the writing of these words were probably playful and humorous, however the question needed to be asked after i read subsequent posts that 'seemed' to lend these words more credibility. i know is not a call for violence and hatred, am correct right?? i want to believe is just an offhand comment,
and i read how you felt and how you dislike being pigeon holed, i totally agree, i have been pigeon holed for my skin color, my accent, my choice of dress, my politiccs, religion, faith blah blah you name it ...and i have been called all kinds of names and thrown eggs as i walk the streets, cops pulled me over bla blah no baseball bat, no .357 like most of us, am not unique ;)
so my question still stands;
ok you find it offensive but does it warrant a baseball bat to the head?
this is not about sensibilities being hurt
this is about participating in quietly condonning prejudice against ANYONE, IN THIS CASE GAYS AND IN THIS FORUM the way 2 responses read to me at this moment is that there is a conviction that there are times when descrimination has its good reasons, probably and i am certain that that is not how anyone here feels or is, but it "kinda" appears that way from waaaay ovvver heeere ... :) please talk to me :)
...just a dialougue to find common ground. :)
melissa:
sweety, it had nothing to do with your posts, i know you'll find this hard to believe. As a matter of facts i found that for me your posts really had little to do with the subject of my response. Thanks for the lecture it was informative.
sheila18
I don't see anything in the posts of Melissa's that were smited (smote?) that deserves smiting. Just my humble opinion for what it's worth. ;)
This topic has been locked as it has headed in a direction that serves no good purpose for anyone.
beth