Like... I know this is such a small thing to say, but sometimes it really bothers me to look at pictures of trans people that aren't... erm... convincing.
It's not like I mean to feel uncomfortable with it, but I can't help but look at them and think "God... I don't know if I could STAND looking like that."
Obviously, this isn't EVERY picture I see, or even the majority. But every now and again I'll look at a picture and think "GRAGH!"
It just feels like such a nasty, shallow part of me to be so aware of people's appearances, especially when I know from experience just how necessary it is to be the way you need to be. Should I feel guilty about this? :embarrassed:
No it is just human nature. I get the OMG feeling.
Janet
I get the YIKES feeling.
Quote from: Firelight on June 19, 2009, 08:00:13 PM
Like... I know this is such a small thing to say, but sometimes it really bothers me to look at pictures of trans people that aren't... erm... convincing.
It's not like I mean to feel uncomfortable with it, but I can't help but look at them and think "God... I don't know if I could STAND looking like that."
Obviously, this isn't EVERY picture I see, or even the majority. But every now and again I'll look at a picture and think "GRAGH!"
It just feels like such a nasty, shallow part of me to be so aware of people's appearances, especially when I know from experience just how necessary it is to be the way you need to be. Should I feel guilty about this? :embarrassed:
I get exactly that same feelings. I just try not to voice them... much. I did when starting here and well, I too know its hard for some and their looks its their challenge. But I cant help but cringe sometimes.
What I think its worse its when a person ask for a truthfully opinion on how she or he looks and others to not hurt that person feelings lie. Or it is that they have this skewed sense of how people really looks?
Or course my opinion its just that but what I dont want its to delude myself that I look oh so great. But also what if im criticizing my look too much and actually I dont look too bad?
But yeah some pictures are like OMG Yikes!
Edit: I forgot to add: It doesnt really matter how you look, well it does to live in this society and stuff. The better you look and look "convincing" the better. But if you arent deluding yourself and you know you dont look quite well. But you are still willing to continue and work with what you have and face your challenges... well I would love to be friends with a person like that.
What matters if who you are inside. Looks help but its not the only thing.
I know exactly what you mean firelight.
However this is a TS / TG support site and full of very biased opinions, the majority of people will tell anyone they look OK and will pass fine and thats its up to the public to accept us.
You are not likely to find anyone willing to destroy anyones confidence and dreams by being truthfull in their opinion.
But we all have to start and remember that in the early days of transition we all may not look overly convincing.
Buffy
Thank you all for putting my fears to rest.
I mean, realistically not very many people are especially "pretty" anyway, so I suppose the good thing is that common people are more likely to think "ugly woman" than "man dressed as a woman" in a great many cases.
At any rate, it's comforting to know that I'm not a horrible person for being kind of "icked out" by some of the pics I've seen.
Hi Firelight,
I don't think you are in the least bit offensive. I have to say that the majority of people I meet every day are "not good looking" in one way or another. I really don't worry if people feel the same to me. I'm reasonably happy with how I look; but I'm a work in progress. I feel we just need to respect how people look. We can have our opinions but sometimes they may be best kept private. I don't think you can start a friendship by walking over to someone and saying. "You're one ugly looking bitch". I've never tried that as a pick up line :laugh: :laugh:.
Though I'm sure it has been tried. "I'm God's gift to women. you're a really ugly bitch but I'll make you feel good tonight." Yea.
And the language was meant to be offensive in the context of the post only.
Cindy,
Firelight
Couldnt agree with you more. Sometimes an image just makes you feel repulsed. As Janet said its just human nature. We are wired from birth that anything deviating from average attracts attention in a negative or positive way.
Having said that attraction to a person imo is based on personality. Unfortunately you have to overcome initial physical apperances to get to know someone
As an SO i was pretty ashamed of when i got the "ick" effect. I thought somehow i was being disloyal to Adrianna. i soon realized that many women i see everyday give me that effect and that it was okay to feel that way. I still truly believe that most everyone is beautiful on the inside and thats what counts. Though i am glad that Adrianna doesnt give me the ick factor i hope that doesnt sound bad. :embarrassed:
Some people are just not very attractive or photogenic. There is an old saying, Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes all the way to the bone. That's supposed to be funny. Sometimes true. Occasionally I'm glad the person didn't show up in a dark alley at night. They're scarey in the daylight.
"I've been drinking for hours, and your still ugly. Lets have sex!"
Sadly a line I have actually heard (luckily not directed towards me)
I've gotten the ick factor a ot of times. The majority of times when looking at myself. With me at least I really need to work on my eyebrows, and as I've stated in my own thread I think some of the people are bluffing when they say how good I look.
Why am I saying this again here? Simply because it's not that getting the ick factor is bad, but you may be getting it by looking at the pictures in the wrong light. Half the time you look at a picture HERE and get the ick factor you know it is a transperson. I'll explain what I mean using myself as an example. The first time I ever dressed I went to a professional trans place in Toronto with my SO and they did my makeup and I got to borrow their clothes and fake boobies(which I want a pair badly they are soooooo cool) when I was done I looked in the mirror (they hid my eyebrows so well they looked so very feminine without removing hair... not sure how) My SO's comment was "Holy ->-bleeped-<- your hot, I love your legs... my god your face is so pretty" or something similar. I however was getting the ick factor at first. I was nervous, and I didn't believe her. I had to disconnect myself and look at it again. The thing is, when I got the ick factor I knew it was "Nick" under that makeup and clothing and it just didn't fit well. However looking at myself again and thinking about Adrianna as if Nick never existed put my looks in a totally different light. Most of the time if you think about just meeting the person randomly and you didn't KNOW they were born male, you probably would never notice. Some of course your still going to get the ick factor, but there are born females that look like men in drag anyway.
Quote from: Bridgette on June 20, 2009, 07:27:00 AM
I have to admit I feel the same way sometimes. I'm new to dressing so still have a lot to learn and I'm a bit self conscious about it. Sometimes I want to say please don't make your blush a circle on your cheeks! :) Now, saying that; I know that I have a long way to go to learn makeup and wearing appropriate clothing but when I do post images I really want constructive feedback. I'm not looking for just general "oh you look cute" from people trying to be nice to me. I really want to be successful at it!
I know exactly how you feel, though people keep reassuring me they are not "just being nice" though someone really does need to take a weed wacker to my eyebrows o.O
In the beginning, it is normal for some trans pictures to make you uncomfortable. All our lives we are told women look this way and men look that way. This is reinforced by television, movies, and other media where mostly there are just beautiful people. It takes a while to realign our expectations of what people should look like. (They should look like themselves, but we usually don't realize that.)
I think the ick factor is normal, especially when we look at ourselves. And it works outside the TG community, too. Years ago I would go to the mall with my wife and she would invariably say something like: Don't these people look in the mirror before they leave the house?
Most of us are works in progress. With time and work we become more who we are, and that shines out. I find a homely person who is completely comfortable in who they are to be very attractive. As my therapist said: Passing is an internal thing.
- Kate
Ah, talk about strange timing... I have been bothered by this for years. In part, I have that fear that there is no hope for a successful transition; there are so many little things that can never be changed, like height and body proportions, and many things that just don't change enough. As I get older, I worry that there is no hope of a favorable result. I hate pictures of myself, for one because they portray a male, and because they show how badly I've fallen apart. Online, I tend to use my art instead of pictures of myself for things like this forum. I've even taken a picture of myself from when I was 17 and morphed it to see what I would have looked like as a girl, but I doubt the result would have been so favorable if I used a current picture! So, I just have to focus some of that angst into getting in shape, see what my current best can be, and hope that hormones will be enough.
I might as well show you... this took a little work on MorphThing and Photoshop, but I think this shows what I might have looked like at 17 if I had been born female.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi157.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft59%2Favmorgan27%2FDavid-1JPG.jpg&hash=daa1cd1da7ebac48830b136da11087475309bc01) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi157.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft59%2Favmorgan27%2FAndrea.jpg&hash=43afe5662271dc26d5a8a68d79fd1ceef902e058)
Not a redhead, with Ocean eyes, but I probably could have lived with this face! If only! :laugh:
I have a twofold reaction. A genuine pain of the heart for them, because their journey is tough, and it takes such determination to get through. And part of this is me feeling awful for feeling repulsed.
And two, inspiration to not allow that to happen to me - mostly by age. The same sort of thing happens when I read about children, marriages, churches, etc. I feel, being younger than a lot of people who actually begin transition, have a very different road than most people relate. And I see it as a driving force for as to why I have to do it. I regret so much as is, why wait 20 years and regret even more?
Quote from: avmorgan on June 21, 2009, 04:22:38 AM
Ah, talk about strange timing... I have been bothered by this for years. In part, I have that fear that there is no hope for a successful transition; there are so many little things that can never be changed, like height and body proportions, and many things that just don't change enough. As I get older, I worry that there is no hope of a favorable result. I hate pictures of myself, for one because they portray a male, and because they show how badly I've fallen apart. Online, I tend to use my art instead of pictures of myself for things like this forum. I've even taken a picture of myself from when I was 17 and morphed it to see what I would have looked like as a girl, but I doubt the result would have been so favorable if I used a current picture! So, I just have to focus some of that angst into getting in shape, see what my current best can be, and hope that hormones will be enough.
I might as well show you... this took a little work on MorphThing and Photoshop, but I think this shows what I might have looked like at 17 if I had been born female.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi157.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft59%2Favmorgan27%2FDavid-1JPG.jpg&hash=daa1cd1da7ebac48830b136da11087475309bc01) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi157.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft59%2Favmorgan27%2FAndrea.jpg&hash=43afe5662271dc26d5a8a68d79fd1ceef902e058)
Not a redhead, with Ocean eyes, but I probably could have lived with this face! If only! :laugh:
wow! that is incredible! hmmmm i have photoshop but am not good with it. i think i am going to send my pictures to that virtual ffs site. the owner is currently out of town so i'll have to wait.
I felt the same way before. Have to second what K8 said. We're conditioned to think men look a certain way and vice versa. I too feel really horrible when I catch myself doing it. On occasions like that, when they're asking for a critique, I just find what is good genderwise about their appearance. (if they have feminine expressions or lips, etc, I'll comment on that.)
I don't tell people they pass or don't need work if they do. Sometimes I think some transpeople are overly critical and forget that women come in all shapes, sizes, and looks. Contrary to what we see on TV, there are a lot of masculine looking or plain women out there. Just because someone doesn't look like a supermodel doesn't mean she doesn't pass or needs FFS.
In streets and even at my work place, there are ugly-looking people. As I have been with her or him for years, that kind of initial feeling fades away. They now look familiar to me. One of my colleauges lost all of fingers at his left hand. At first, it was shocking, but now it is fine to me.
Yes. It is shocking at first time, but it is the reality. And, a camera makes a magic that makes a bauty look uglier and vice versa.
I see my naked body, and always think it is bizarre. However, now I love my own body, whether is has a hole or a protrusion, because my body was once a target of teasing when I was puberty.
Barbie~~
Hi Firelight,
I think you are expressing what many people think but few actually express. I know when I first came to this site I was taken aback by the different types of people, the different "looks" I'd see. For the first few months as I browsed and read and posted, I got to know many of these people. My first impressions were sometimes based off of appearance, much like it had been most of my life (I know, not fair, just being honest). What I found after a while was sometimes you would have the most passable person with the most beautiful voice and the seemingly ideal life who just had the absolute worst attitude in the world. Caustic, pompous, etc. Just generally someone that had a real mean personality and spirit, but they looked and sounded GREAT!
Then I'd see the opposite too. Someone who might have appeared the opposite, where I'd not be sure of gender intentions or identity, would just not look what I'd imagined a transitioned/ing person to look like. They would have hearts of gold. They would have informative posts. They would be the people who would be there for others. They would be quick to offer their phone number to someone who was in need, sacrificing their own needs for the needs of others.
What I learned over time was that transgender people are just that...people. They come in all shapes and sizes, all different passabilities, personalities, etc. The way someone looks in our world, on this site and other trans sites is just a microcosm of the real world. How many times have you know a really hot person, like super, super hot, to have a really poor attitude. Then you'd have someone that you would just be like "whoa" about and guess what? Wow, they are the most gentle, caring, kind soul in the world. It's a lesson I think we need to remember in trans spaces. You really, truly learn to get past initial perceptions and get to know people for who they are.
The other main thing to remember is that many people are transitioning. How they look now is not how they always looked. I'm posting a link to this video I did on Youtube that shows just my face over 3 years through transition. If you watch it, tell me honestly if through those pictures there wouldn't have been a point where you would have been like "um, scary." But, I'm the same caring, gentle soul I was before. LOL, I sound like yoda, huh? But you know what I mean. If I looked like I did before transition or like I do now or somewhere in between or whatever, I would hope that once you got to know me, your thoughts about me would be the same. That's what I strive for and I continually remind myself of that online and in real life. Good luck on your journey :) Meghan
The Faces of Meghan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUBoLekamXc#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
If we could leave "right and wrong" out of it, I think that if we are to get to a place where we truly respect all presentations of gender, AND we also get to a place where we fully accept those who may not seek to transition in the way "we" have done it, then perhaps we could look at the pictures of all trans people with no judgment...just respect for the differences that we have.
As others have said earlier, how do we know the story, or the goal, or the issues involved with the person we see in the picture? I also like what Meghan said about attitude, which I think is a key component in all of life and especially in Genderland.
Wow Meghan. You've come a long way baby!
I'm in the sort of awkward inbetween stage - look like a female trying to be male. But I see glimmers of hope. :)
Meghan, thank you -- that kind of collection is really helpful to help people like me who are early in transition (or pre-transition entirely) get a sense of what sorts of changes you can expect.
For me, I think that part of the "ick factor" is basically the same as what happens when people live in ethnically homogenous regions see people of a different race or ethnicity. It's a kind of bias born of unfamiliarity. As you see more people in a category, you start to see them as unusual.
Another part is self-criticism. When I see a trans woman who isn't very attractive or feminine, it reminds me of my own insecurities in my looks; whereas when I see a trans man who isn't very attractive or masculine, it doesn't particularly affect me. And when I see a cis woman who isn't attractive or feminine I think, "woohoo -- if people see her as a womman, maybe they can see me as a woman too!"
So the "ick factor" is just a symptom of different problems: a society that makes trans people invisible (though less and less every day), and personal insecurity. Fix those, and the "ick factor" disappears.
A brave and enlightening showcase, Meghan! A bit sobering, in a grounding kind of way and it reminds me not to let what I look like at a given moment floor me. I am appalled by what I look like right now because I fell apart when my initial attempt to transition crashed and burned. I don't stand still long enough to have my picture taken, so I had to go back to my high school portraits to find one to morph, so the female version is probably an unattainable ideal.
This is where I am really starting out:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi157.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft59%2Favmorgan27%2FDavid20090621.jpg&hash=c6a6371409afadf903a28db59066f34531e0666c)
The camera is not kind to me at all these days, and if I can resume transition, there will be "ohmigod!" days ahead of me. That is true for all of us, and I can only hope that those awkward days that make people around me uncomfortable are filled with people who are compassionate enough to think, "Poor thing is going through hell" and not "What a freak!"
Not that it really bothers me to be a freak. I only worry about what people think when they are making decisions that affect my ability to survive, my ability to pay the bills... and of course my ability to use a public restroom!
Is it wrong? Hell no.
There are a lot of incredibly unattractive transpeople. Here in SF, it's a few days before pride and all the tourists are showing up. There is no larger gathering of unattractive transpeople than the SF Trans March.
Let's rephrase the question:
Is it okay that looking at unattractive people makes me uncomfortable?
Thanks for clarifying your question. Phrased this way, it sounds like the answer you are looking for might take a little soul searching, to figure out why it makes you uncomfortable to look at someone who is unattractive or unusual looking. Part of that is normal psychology, because the long long period in which human behavior evolved disfigurement could be a sign of disease, and people who responded negatively to an odd appearance in a stranger might have avoided contracting dangerous diseases. It's a common issue with leprosy in parts of the world where it still occurs frequently. People are literally outcast from their homes and villages, and in communities where little is known about how the disease is transmitted, it probably helps limit its transmission. Of course, these days there is a treatment that will stop transmission, though the damage to the nervous system cannot be repaired and the secondary infections that cause those who have had leprosy to lose limbs are still possible due to untreated injuries they cannot feel.
On a social level, there is a purely antisocial kind of response based on our reaction to what we perceive as different or alien that can turn into outright discrimination, and if your reaction to a person's appearance prevents you from respecting his or her basic humanity, or getting to know them as a person, then you may be inclined to social prejudice. There are a lot of other reasons for feeling discomfort, though, like heightened empathy, in which case you project what you see in others upon your self, and this can feel like a threat to your own identity and make you uncomfortable. In other cases, what you feel might just be an instinctive reaction to an experience that challenges your perceived norms and the feeling serves to make sure you don't take the situation for granted. Again, a lingering survival trait in which different can be dangerous.
So, to answer your question, there isn't an "okay" or "not okay" type of answer. It's more of a "food for thought" type of situation.
Quote from: Matilda on June 21, 2009, 04:10:45 PM
I'd agree that not everyone looks like a supermodel, yet when a trans woman looks obviously male (or a trans man looks obviously female), sometimes keeping our opinions to ourselves works best instead of the usual "you pass, you don't need anything done" bull fertilizer you read on some boards.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi572.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss161%2Fmatilda23%2F061.gif&hash=8f2301193b0dc73bb2e3c64f938f2048ea1a0591)
true. sometimes if they really need help, it's more harmful to say they don't.
Post Merge: June 22, 2009, 04:26:51 AM
Re: Is it wrong that some trans pictures make me uncomfortable?
Yeah, I think this is the same visceral response many cissexuals have. And for us, it may add to the discomfort by knowing what the poor soul is going through. I know that before I came out as trans and understood what it is to have GID, I just assumed drag queens and crossdressers didn't 'care' if they passed or not. But now, everytime I see one, I hope they are not TS and suffering. :(
Is it okay that looking at unattractive people makes me uncomfortable?
Sure, its fine. Otherwise the entire Hollywood star/model/glamor industry would die like it was GM. It works in reverse also, the way 'rougher' people get cast as bad guys.
There is no larger gathering of unattractive transpeople than the SF Trans March
Noise Pop, or any night at the Pound, or any Marylin Manson concert will give you a run for the money.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on June 21, 2009, 11:35:39 PM
Is it okay that looking at unattractive people makes me uncomfortable?
I think it's OK.
In my case, sometimes looking at attractive people make me extremely uncomfortable (as I am so jealous of them).
Barbie~~
I know that I'm far from perfect myself but what really gives me the creeps is when I see a picture in which some one is trans, usually MtF, but makes no attempt to look the part aside from stuffing some socks in a bra and putting on a skirt. I mean come on! If your not going to even attempt to put on some make up at least photo shop in a wig or something.
But whats worse then that is to think some would actually go out like that. Back about ten years or so ago I myself did something stupid like that.
I had a day to myself and I was at home playing dress up. I had on a really slutty skirt and spaghetti strap tank and I was trying various makeup techniques. I wanted to play with some eye shadow and eye liner but I didn't have the colors I wanted so I got brave and decided to go out like that and buy some. So, as scary as I looked I went. I got out of my car and walked about 5 steps into the local Walmart and got clocked by a group of three 20-ish guys. They made no attempt at being discreet about it either and started acting rather threatening.
I can honestly say the only time I have been more scared was when my first wife had a hart attack in a Burger King restaurant. But I learned my lesson.
I think some transgendered people who are just starting out, myself included, are often influenced by testosterone and it clouds our judgment. Just because you can fit into that size 6 mini skirt does not mean you should. If you an older person, don't dress like your 13. Just because it looks cute on the anorexic manikin in the store does not mean it will look good on you.
I see pics of TS all the time. Some are very pretty and feminine, some have prominent features, and there are some that are just so masculine that even with FFS you can only do so much..Thing to remember tho is that it is about the person inside...how they feel about themselves..there is such a variance of values, character, what ppls sexuality is like and how they feel as far as if they are female by nature or a sexual aspect only. I am TS/TG, so i try to look past the physical and try to find out what the person is like inside. there are some really actually female natural born males that are not that fem looking, but are far beyond what even some gg's are as far as being a woman...Not to down play that a natural born woman isnt as "female", but it is a midset that is either there or it isnt. Just my opinion on the subject.
Avmorgan,
Yesterday after seeing the picture you posted, I was sitting in the coffee shop when a woman walked in with a small child. She had long hair and no beard and considerable mammary development but otherwise looked like a twin of your picture. (God love her!)
There is a huge range to how we look. We tend to look at and aspire to those who have been gifted, but not all of us were so lucky. Part of it, though, is what we do with what we have.
And I think being TGs ourselves, we are sensitized to it. I am friends with a lovely, attracive, fun woman I had pegged as a TS the first time I met her. Oops. :P
Again, it's not what you look like; it is how you feel that is important.
- Kate
"Again, it's not what you look like; it is how you feel that is important."
So true, and in some cases, how you feel impacts what you look like. I've spent years feeling like crap and it shows in all the pictures taken of me during those years (sparse as they are!). I did not care at all for how I looked and the neglect eventually left its mark. In the past two weeks, I've had a boost in my self esteem and I've seen a marked improvement in my appearance--even in the few days since I took the "current" picture I posted here.
It also shows in the photomontage Meghan shared with us. Our faces change subtly each day in response to changes in diet, exercise, hygiene and hormones. Yes, some things are harder to change, like bone structure, but that too can be dealt with. Positive thoughts and positive actions make a difference. There were a lot of in-between stages in Meghan's transformation, before ffs, that I thought were simply gorgeous in spite of "obviously" masculine bone structure. A lot of it was just her personality showing through.
Quote from: K8 on June 23, 2009, 06:42:11 AM
Again, it's not what you look like; it is how you feel that is important.
I kinda have to disagree. Opposite gendered twins may look strikingly similar but the male is likely to have broader shoulders and narrower hips. So if he and his sister were to put on the exact same outfit I would wager a bet that if they went out like that he would stand A higher chance of getting pummeled. I can feel as pretty as a princess but if I obviously look male and go traipsing into the public ladies room I best be prepared for confrontation.
Now I know there is a distinct difference between "passing" and being attractive. There are indeed a lot of very ugly cis gendered people but their mannerisms, posture, and bone structure often make their gender very obvious.
As I've said before, I'm no beauty queen but I would rather be an ugly woman then a handsome man. In that regard yes it is largely how you feel about yourself but it's also important to present yourself properly and in accordance with your target gender.
And yes how you feel can influence your looks. When I was in male mode I had no trouble attracting a mate because even though I hated my body I was at the same time very sure of my attractiveness. Near the end of that when living as male became unbearable my appearance degraded. I did not feel or look attractive in any attire and I could tell other peoples perception of me changed as well.
Well most of my "ick" moments involve a mirror or my own photos. But given I've been convinced of my own ugliness for well over 30 years I'm used to it. That said, yes I do notice when someone seems to be under prepared or just wildly unsuited physically and my heart goes out to the latter especially because i know how it feels to have a few big impediments (and I'm crazy jealous of you who turn out so pretty!)
All that said, the hardest thing for me, in terms of judging myself, is that the more passable i am (I won't even go to "pretty") the more confidence I can have and it's the confidence you guys tells me that seals the deal - I have trouble being confident when I'm in doubt about my appearance. When I came home dressed yesterday I chickened out on wearing a formed bra and some pads that I had with me and took a less daring approach...almost entirely that's a lack of confidence.
Still, inspired by Megan's montage, I want to post a pic of what I looked like a year ago just to give you some idea of the progress this ugly girl is making. I'm not sure if it will be encouraging or dejecting lol.
My own personal view is I would like to not have an "ick" factor when I look at anyone, for any reason. My spiritual discipline teaches me that when I look on another in judgment, I am actually dealing with the same issue in some part of my life, so the "ick" applies to me too, if I feel it for another.
If I get quiet with myself and ask the universe, God or Spirit what that place in me is, I usually get an answer.
But I do not lay that out for you all, that is just me.
You should see the "ick" factor at Area 51
Quote from: Virginia87106 on June 23, 2009, 07:22:12 PM
My own personal view is I would like to not have an "ick" factor when I look at anyone, for any reason. My spiritual discipline teaches me that when I look on another in judgment, I am actually dealing with the same issue in some part of my life, so the "ick" applies to me too, if I feel it for another.
If I get quiet with myself and ask the universe, God or Spirit what that place in me is, I usually get an answer.
But I do not lay that out for you all, that is just me.
I don't know what spiritual path you're coming from, but more or less that has been my conclusion. Though there are sometimes (i.e. gender->-bleeped-<-) when it is simply a vivid contrast of the genders and sexes which catches us off guard.
Personally I hate it, but I often have this reaction. I want to embrace fellow trans people instead of making them feel so shunned, but it is this horrible reaction I have. I'm working on it though, exposure is key.
Virginia will not offer an opinion at this time because she doesn't feel like getting trampled upon :P
Hi Laura
This thread I believe was originally about you. To be honest you posted a few pictures that were confronting.
You have replied and shown a personality that I now see the woman inside you.
Laura, you are beutifull
Krissy
Photographic works of Pierre Molinier made me very uncomfortable, but later I found his works could be self-portraits of me.
Pierre Molinier. Je suis Lesbien Putan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKZU1gOf_U8#noexternalembed-lq-hq)
Pierre Molinier (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2e7ip)
http://www.artnet.com/magazine_pre2000/reviews/morris/morris9-30-96.asp (http://www.artnet.com/magazine_pre2000/reviews/morris/morris9-30-96.asp)
http://www.photoconnexion.com/popup-galerie.php?lang=fr&id=142 (http://www.photoconnexion.com/popup-galerie.php?lang=fr&id=142)
http://www.stevenwolffinearts.com/dynamic/artist_artwork.asp?ArtistID=96 (http://www.stevenwolffinearts.com/dynamic/artist_artwork.asp?ArtistID=96)
http://www.artnet.com/Artists/ArtistHomePage.aspx?artist_id=11962&page_tab=Artworks (http://www.artnet.com/Artists/ArtistHomePage.aspx?artist_id=11962&page_tab=Artworks)
Barbie~~
Quote from: Krissy_Australia on June 24, 2009, 06:28:39 AM
Hi Laura
This thread I believe was originally about you.
You think so too?
I confess whenever I see a comment like that i always tend to take it personally and assume it's a reference to me.
But I also recognize that can be a function of my own low opinion of my looks (in either gender) being projected onto others.
I always have the sort of thought process that if I see a whisper conversation I assume they are talking about me.
So yeah, the thought crossed my mind.
Quote
To be honest you posted a few pictures that were confronting.
The butchered makeup? I hated that pic but I wanted to show off the hair. My big problem is that my wife is not particularly enthused so she "puts up with" taking the photos and she doesn't have a "photographer's eye" - so what doesn't look right as a pose, or when something goes wrong (like that necklace hanging sideways or that strapless bra making a "dent") she just takes the picture anyway.
that and the fact that it's a cheap camera that doesn't always take great indoor pics.
That and having a pretty poor subject...
Quote
You have replied and shown a personality that I now see the woman inside you.
Laura, you are beutifull
Krissy
Thanks for saying so. I can be as self conscious about what I say as how i look sometimes (I know, I don't come across as lacking in confidence but it happens)
I was actually driven to leave a previous board I posted at because one girl who was VERY impressed with her own looks started trashing me as "a man playing dress up" because I was so...frankly...ugly...as a girl. (or either way I guess)
And that sort of thing really kills the ability to be confident on the street. So many here have said, and I believe, that a HUGE part of being credible out in the world is confidence and I'm not going to deny that confidence comes VERY hard for me out there. When I do go out and do something "bold" like shopping or whatever, it is usually more a function of knowing the judge me and not caring because I have nothing to lose than it is confidence in my presentation.
But I understand the deal - like I said above, my "ick" reaction is ALWAYS heavier when looking at my own pictures/mirror than ant anyone else. Even the new set that the new av is drawn from...I deleted 3/4 of them because I couldn't stand to see them.
Laura, your response shows a lot of grace and courtesy. I might not have been so generous. You also have the courage to put pictures of yourself out there, and that's more than I can say for myself.
I think you are making good progress, and the main thing that's hurting you is your beard shadow.
There was a woman who transitioned nearby where I live who had a lot less to work with than you have. I would see her from time to time and knew her by sight before she even began her transition, so I saw her through the whole two or three years as she became more obviously feminine. She had a deep voice and blotchy skin and wiry gray hair and she was seriously overweight, with a somewhat ursine demeanor and gait, and she must have been around 60, certainly past her prime. I was amazed she was transitioning considering the hurdles she'd face with her age and looks, and it definitely kicked my butt into thinking I'd better not wait too long to start transitioning.
Now, a few years down the road, I'm pretty sure nobody who meets her now sees her sees anything other than a woman. She's not attractive -- her age and her weight and her fashion sense are working against her -- but she could be every bit as attractive as most women her age if she tried. I'm sure that you'll soon be able to get to that point, and better, because you're starting way ahead of where she was. (You will still hate 3/4 of the photose taken of you, of course, because pretty much everybody does -- just look at the rejects published in any supermarket tabloid.)
As to whom this thread is about -- well, it could be almost anyone at some point in their transition.
I had an "ick" moment about myself the other day, so my boyfriend had to show me that, yes as off CURRENTLY, I am not as beautiful as some transwoman, however I am more beautiful than others. I have come some way, but I still have along to go. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I feel uncomfortable when I see many things so yea. Why feel bad about something if you uncomfortable?
QuoteI think you are making good progress, and the main thing that's hurting you is your beard shadow.
Absolutely agree. And that after I went to the MAC counter and spent way more than I can afford to buy the most recommended thing they had for beard concealment.
*sigh*
The Laser can't come soon enough.
Also the fat, but THAT I can do myself and am. Whatever else you girls might see from me over time, you'l see a lot "less" of me.
:D
Quote from: Laura Hope on June 25, 2009, 11:51:41 AM
Absolutely agree. And that after I went to the MAC counter and spent way more than I can afford to buy the most recommended thing they had for beard concealment.
*sigh*
The Laser can't come soon enough.
Also the fat, but THAT I can do myself and am. Whatever else you girls might see from me over time, you'l see a lot "less" of me.
:D
Laura, your excellent attitude is really an inspiration. I have high respect for you. I battle the beard too and I have found two things that work for me. The more expensive product is the CoverFX ($40) foundation from Sephora. I apply it in thin layers and set each one with powder. It usually takes three layers to cove my beard shadow.
Lately I have been using a much cheaper product. I was actually turned on to it by a drag performer I met. It's the Panstick by Maxfactor ($8). It only takes about two thin layers of that as it is much thicker and I've noticed it does not sweat off as bad in the sun. Sadly they are going out of business in the US so I'm stocking up on enough to last me till I can afford laser.
Fortunately or not, I do not have so many hairs in my beard. Nevertheless, I pluck fine hairs in my face nearly everyday.
Choosing a correct pair of tweezers is critical. Tweezers should be very well-made and sharp to pinpoint very fine hairs. Most tweezers at $2 or 3 in Wal mart or pharmacies are not so good for this purpose. You may find >$4 tweezers that can effectively pluck your fine hairs.
In my country, there are some nice tweezers at ca. $4, which are rather expensive compared with other cheap products at ca. $1. If necessary, I purchase new ones every month.
Also, I pluck fine hairs in my eyebrows every 3 or 4 days.
Barbie~~
CindyJames makes me laugh. Quote:"You're one ugly bitch" LOL. Where did that come from? Reminds me of a story I heard about Winston Churchill. The Queen told him he was an old drunk and he responded. "And you're ugly. Tommorrow I'll be sober."
You know, I used to have that feeling when I saw people who obviously didn't pass. I used to cringe a little, not because I thought they looked bad necessarily, but that I feared for their embarrassment or suffering. I am getting a little self-conscious here because I feel like I'm starting to sound like a girl (typical ::)), but in my opinion... I can just see in someone's eyes either the femininity or masculinity that they are trying to express. All of you women have some of the most glowing, expressive eyes I've ever seen. And while many won't see it, it's pretty clear to me. It's a long and personal process, and what some think to be "ugly transsexuals" may just be people on one step of their journey...
Man, I sound sappy. :-X
Wow... thanks for all of your responses, everyone. I've only had one single day off in the past 45 days... :'(
I have been paying attention, though, and I am very gratified at all of the replies posted here.
Meghan, I've actually been seriously considering doing a slideshow just like yours as I go through this, but haven't fully decided yet. First I want to get my family affairs sorted out; hopefully sooner than later.
One question, though: what was that surgery about 2/3 of the way through the video? I presume it was some sort of FFS, but your face already looked really feminine just before those pictures, and didn't look especially different afterward, so I was really curious. I know this is a cliche, but you've really come a very long way!
Laura, I've actually seen much, MUCH worse pictures than your own (your avatar, I mean... haven't seen any others). And actually, I didn't really notice any beard shadow, myself. I'm not going to lie and say that you're a supermodel, but you don't look terrible, either. As the saying goes: "I've seen worse."
It wasn't the Queen, god forbid. It was Bessie Braddock, who by report, was quite ugly. Churchill, by all reports, was frequently drunk.
as an artist who has focused a lot on portraits (my current avatar for example), I have been carefully studying people's faces for a long time. Even the ones that might make you cringe at first have something beautiful about them on closer examination. It might only be the curve around the eye, or nice lips, or something else, but when you start looking at faces objectively I have never seen any that were naturally so ugly I actually wanted to tell them that when they were born the doctor should have slapped their mothers instead.
I did however think that Ron Perlman looked considerably better made up as Vincent, but then I like cats lol
I know that "uncomfortable" can cover a range of feelings but, to me, I'm not sure I'd define my reaction as uncomfortable.
I am struck by the visual incongruity of what looks like a bloke in a dress but that's just because it falls outside the parameters of a congruous gender presentation. After all, that's the basis behind the "do I pass?" question...is my overall appearance within those parameters?
It's not a uniquely trans thing - if I wear a sarong, my appearance falls outside those parameters for folks here too. Mind you, I only wear them indoors...except for one occasion with a friend of mine when we were both lounging in sarongs, ran out of wine and couldn't be bothered to change. So we strolled down to the local off-license (liquor store) in t-shirts and sarongs.
The lady behind the counter said she gets people coming in with only pyjamas on so she wasn't phased by what she described as "two guys in skirts".
However, as an example of what does make me feel uncomfortable, I would have to cite the "cosmetic" surgery results of Michael Jackson or Jocelyn Wildenstein. They are so far outside the "parameters" that they look freakish.
Quote from: finewine on July 02, 2009, 12:13:55 AM
However, as an example of what does make me feel uncomfortable, I would have to cite the "cosmetic" surgery results of Michael Jackson or Jocelyn Wildenstein. They are so far outside the "parameters" that they look freakish.
http://www.onlinenursingdegrees.org/medical/plastic-surgery-fail.htm (http://www.onlinenursingdegrees.org/medical/plastic-surgery-fail.htm)
Ouch, those are good examples Mister (love the avatar, btw).
The first one on cooking oil is quite shocking. As it happens, self-injecting with silicone is quite common apparently. My gf made the same mistake of having silicone injections as a low-cost breast enhancement option. Of course, in the Philippines, this is not sanctioned by medical personnel so the girls who do this end up getting a "backstreet" injection of non-medical grade silicone straight into breast tissue, which tends to result in nodular tissue formations. Our consultant found a few in her breasts when we had our initial checkover.
Part of the problem is lack of access to proper information and lack of education, so the girls there just treat themselves based on word of mouth from other girls. This is such a shame and I'd like to do something about it. Once we've settled our own life down a bit, I'll chat with Shayna on how best to get better information spread around in that community.
Meghan obviously made a fantastic change from a "bro" type of guy to a very attractive women by Western standards. She makes no secret that she had a lot of FFS. As far as I know, this can be costly . She also looks like her facial hair is gone. Also not cheap. The problem is that so many transwomen will never have the money for this as well as GRS. Certainly hormones can make a difference . I did not have any FFS, but then I was never a "bro" or a "dude", but a rather effeminate David Bowie type before my transition. But this is beside the point. Without a lot of money , many of us will never look "passable" by conventional standards. This shows the underlying "classism" in our community. The picture I post is from a "business flyer". I don't know if even a liberal employer like mine would have hired me if I didn't look somewhat ordinary or normal by Western feminine standards. Prominent transwomen like Donna Rose and Dr.Marci Bowers spent a great deal of money to get where they are. Then they are on TV shows and the general public assumes that if we don't look as good as these people, we are lazy.
Quote from: xsocialworker on July 02, 2009, 08:35:05 AMI don't know if even a liberal employer like mine would have hired me if I didn't look somewhat ordinary or normal by Western feminine standards.
...
Then they are on TV shows and the general public assumes that if we don't look as good as these people, we are lazy.
These statements aren't limited to trans women. A big part of transphobia is just a manifestation of plain old lookism and sexism.
Those pictures are a clear representation of those that went too far. Really, why someone would take a face entirely unique to them, and absolutely fine in every way, and contort it beyond recognition is mind-boggling. Sure, there are lots of trans people who do not pass by any standards, who are obviously trying very hard but without the natural materials to work with, but at least they haven't lost their individuality via intensive surgery.
Generally speaking, except for the transwomen who believe in the concept of the "two-spirited person", I'd say close to 100% of them desire to pass effectively. I admit that even though I am considered an "intellectual", passing as an attractive women who looks ten years younger than my real age became an obsession that transcended any academic goals.
Quote from: Adrian on July 02, 2009, 01:31:15 PMbut at least they haven't lost their individuality via intensive surgery.
The truth is, individuality comes down to your actions, and even then is it rarely ever 'unique' enough to stand out. We are individuals with individual choices and personalities. You can have an individual appearance, but changing that doesn't take away individuality as a whole.
Quote from: xsocialworker on July 03, 2009, 09:37:05 AM
Generally speaking, except for the transwomen who believe in the concept of the "two-spirited person", I'd say close to 100% of them desire to pass effectively. I admit that even though I am considered an "intellectual", passing as an attractive women who looks ten years younger than my real age became an obsession that transcended any academic goals.
I can relate. Part of the reason I am so impatient now is that I sense "the clock is ticking" and I, selfishly and vainly, want to have my stab at being "pretty" before age takes it from me.
I may be 5 or 10 years (money wise) getting rid of the hair and so forth but I'm hoping that I can get myself in good enough shape that even in my mid-50's i can capture a little of the "couger" vibe lol.
I KNOW it's superficial but it is what it is...
Yes i feel like that everytime i look in the mirror
Quote from: Firelight on June 19, 2009, 08:00:13 PM
Like... I know this is such a small thing to say, but sometimes it really bothers me to look at pictures of trans people that aren't... erm... convincing.
It's not like I mean to feel uncomfortable with it, but I can't help but look at them and think "God... I don't know if I could STAND looking like that."
Obviously, this isn't EVERY picture I see, or even the majority. But every now and again I'll look at a picture and think "GRAGH!"
It just feels like such a nasty, shallow part of me to be so aware of people's appearances, especially when I know from experience just how necessary it is to be the way you need to be. Should I feel guilty about this? :embarrassed:
I would say that certain pictures of a fetish variety where the person isn't even trying hard to look female are very disturbing, but in the non-fetish ones a lot of these girls really are trying hard to look good. They just can't do it because of skill, time, resources, etc. Someone has to mentor each and every one of them to help them be the best that they can be.