Pakistan: Taliban buying children for suicide attacks
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07/07/pakistan.child.bombers/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07/07/pakistan.child.bombers/index.html)
In our quest to be accepted, look at bigger problems young people are facing in this world. When the population out strips resources this is the behavior that humans resort to.
Quote from: lisagurl on July 07, 2009, 04:52:31 PMWhen the population out strips resources this is the behavior that humans resort to.
Fortunately, our population is due to stop growing altogether once the world has become completely industrialized. In fact, we should enter a period of contraction, which is long overdue. Industrialization is the only long-term strategy that is likely to be effective.
QuoteFortunately, our population is due to stop growing altogether once the world has become completely industrialized.
Not if religion has anything to do with it.
Quote from: lisagurl on July 08, 2009, 03:03:46 PM
Not if religion has anything to do with it.
WHOSE??
QuoteWhen the population out strips resources this is the behavior that humans resort to.
This holy war is not over lack of resources. It is jihad over the elimination of infidels, and the take back of Isreal. Remember many of these jihadists are supported with abundant resources from Saudi, Yemen, Dubai, and other Oil Rich nations.
Think of it this way everytime you put a Dollar's worth of gas, you are putting money into an Arab hand that may redistribrute his wealth to a jihadist Terrorist.
Daisy
Quote from: lisagurl on July 08, 2009, 03:03:46 PM
Not if religion has anything to do with it.
Religion doesn't have much to do with the problem. The problem is rooted in the fact that their economies suck.
QuoteThink of it this way every time you put a Dollar's worth of gas
Better yet every time people get high.
QuoteReligion doesn't have much to do with the problem.
The Christian religion preaches " Go forth and Multiply" then there is the abortion issue and birth control, suicide, etc
Quote from: lisagurl on July 08, 2009, 05:40:00 PMThe Christian religion preaches " Go forth and Multiply"
A comfortable rate of female literacy combined with a style of economy that is highly accessible to women (ZOMG!!! CAPITALISM!) tends to result in this command being almost universally ignored.
Quotethen there is the abortion issue and birth control, suicide, etc.
Grrrr. Yeah, these issues tend to annoy me. However, I don't think that abortion does much to slow the birth rate. Birth control, though, is a horse of a different color. I still can't believe religious orgs that try to "condemn" things like condoms and birth control pills. So...incredibly...stupid.
Religion, while it can be argued to be a contributing factor, is not the cause of overpopulation.
Overpopulation is not the reason why children can be bought and/or used as soldiers, it's been done throughout history, even in eras where there existed significantly less human beings.
Overpopulation isn't the big bogey man you think it is lisagurl.
There's a genuine concern that many central European countries aren't producing enough children to support their basic work force and many other nations are noticing their statistics shifting in that direction.
And if we examine how much food is thrown away in the western world, for an array of reasons, we can see that we are actually producing enough food to feed "everyone" if it was shared equally, with room to spare. The reason that we aren't sharing equally is not just greed. Shipping food long distances isn't always conceivable. The reason people starve is because They can't raise enough food for themselves in their countries, not because there's just too many people.
QuoteThey can't raise enough food for themselves in their countries, not because there's just too many people.
Then the population is too large. The earth does not have enough resources to ship food around the world and it does not grow on places like Australia which is too dry. It would use too much resources to make unsalted water to grow food. Mean while many other places where they are growing food are depleting the soil with chemicals and already are seeing the reduced effects of over farming.
Read " Collapse"
Easter Island striped its land that could support 800, at a population of 2000 they all starved leaving less than 100.
Post Merge: July 09, 2009, 08:11:06 PM
I understand Iceland is adding another Aluminum plant that will deplete Iceland's geothermal energy in the south in 70 years.
Religion doesn't have much to do with the problem. The problem is rooted in the fact that their economies suck.
Odd though that not all of the people who are in poverty don't think that way. Total fail.
If a region in the world cannot sustain the population in that region, then historically the famine would rationalize the population. These days, it's really tough to stand by idly watching people starve, even if our intervention in natural population pressures is ultimately unproductive. If we take our understandable empathy out of the equation, do folks here think intervention via aid etc. is the right or wrong strategy?
On a lighter note, I have noticed that there is a loose correlation between family size and tv ownership in developing countries. While in Sri Lanka, I saw that families without a tv (often without electricity) had large numbers of offspring - well there's not much else to do when the sun sets. Those with a tv had less, maybe because they got addicted to watching telly instead of humping? Perhaps the solution to over-population in the developing world is to air-drop clockwork tv's (the next thing from the clockwork radio & torch)? :)
In fact there are large numbers of person in the US without TV, they tend to be like, successful, and make far beyond average income. Odd hunh?
Quote from: tekla on July 10, 2009, 12:57:49 AM
In fact there are large numbers of person in the US without TV, they tend to be like, successful, and make far beyond average income. Odd hunh?
That figures :) Based on my experience of yankee teevee where the long tracts of commercials are broken up by short segments of a tv show - segments so brief it would barely fill the attention span of a strobe-lit goldfish :P
Based on my experience, it's just that some people have better things to do.
Yeah I know, I'm just in a silly mood this morning - forgive my facetiousness. I don't actually watch tv at home either, except maybe for the odd bit of news or a particular science program I may be interested in.
QuoteIf we take our understandable empathy out of the equation, do folks here think intervention via aid etc. is the right or wrong strategy?
That would depend on the plan and the intended and realized results of the aid. It is better to give the tools than the finished product. But if there is no factual plan of long term stability then being emotional only prolongs the suffering.
Quote from: tekla on July 10, 2009, 12:57:49 AM
In fact there are large numbers of person in the US without TV, they tend to be like, successful, and make far beyond average income. Odd hunh?
Probably because they are like me: the constant noise drives them insane to the point that they eventually curl up on the floor, moaning and clutching at their skulls. In any case, just in case you missed our friend's point, he was referring to the fact that you and Lisa are commiting the fallacy of
cum hoc ergo propter hoc. Religion is no more to blame for overpopulation than a shortage of television sets.
For two things to co-occur does not make one responsible for the other. Say there is some construction going on outside your apartment window. Okay, maybe you don't live in an apartment, but relax: this is a hypothetical situation. But say that, everytime a man yells, "fire in the hole!" you hear an explosion. Does this mean that something is going to explode if you step out the door and yell, "fire in the hole"? Or does this mysterious incantation only work for certain people who come to construction sites? Or perhaps the incantation requires the assistance of a magical wand? If you really investigate what is going on, though, you will eventually realize that he is yelling this "incantation" to let everyone know to clear out the way. Correlation does not equate to causation.
On the other hand, an excessive birth rate AND religious extremism can BOTH result from a broken or ineffective education system. A heavily agricultural, tribal society relies heavily upon the labors of young people, who have higher levels of energy and tend to be easier to bully into cooperation. A very war-like society considers itself to be in competition to "out-produce" its "enemy," and they go about this "population war" in the same way that their ancient ancestors did for thousands of years.
The solution to the problem is to avoid military conflicts with the underdeveloped world, and spend that money INSTEAD on helping them to develop a viable education system. I say we send books, not bombs. Maybe a good project for any good college would be to start sending used textbooks overseas, to countries where there is always a shortage of decent educational material. As far as I am concerned, it is really education that makes the difference.
QuoteAs far as I am concerned, it is really education that makes the difference.
It is had to educate someone who believes that education is witchcraft or a western plot especially with an empty stomach and no clean water. They believe God will provide.
It should be interesting when you try to make a living.
Quote from: lisagurl on July 10, 2009, 01:42:53 PMIt is had to educate someone who believes that education is witchcraft or a western plot
That's not the whole Islamic world, Lisa. If you gave the average Muslim, even the most throwback, desert-dwelling tribesman, a textbook on physics or chemistry, most of them are not apt to think, "wizardry." They might think it's boring, but most of them would be delighted to hear about the idea that, if they make their kids read it, maybe they'll get to go to a big, fancy, American college one day. They might be superstitious, but they aren't stupid.
Quoteespecially with an empty stomach and no clean water.
The Taliban people are probably just smoking a lot of opium. Have you thought of that? They're really nothing but a bunch of drug lords, really. If you could get the people around them to understand this, to understand they are a bunch of dope-pushing thugs and NOT answering the call of Islam, and this wouldn't take long by the way, all those impoverished, backwards tribespeople would alllll get together, and they would go out and hack these guys into a billion pieces. Maybe some of them are illiterate, but they ain't necessarily stupid.
Quote from: daisybelle on July 08, 2009, 04:00:52 PM
This holy war is not over lack of resources. It is jihad over the elimination of infidels, and the take back of Isreal. Remember many of these jihadists are supported with abundant resources from Saudi, Yemen, Dubai, and other Oil Rich nations.
You're making it seem as if it's one sided. How pretentious.
QuoteHEALTH: Dirty Water Kills 4,000 Children a Day
By Thalif Deen
UNITED NATIONS, Sep 28 (IPS) - The statistics are mind-boggling: of the more than six billion people in the world today, over one billion have no access to improved drinking water - a basic necessity for human life - and about 2.6 billion people do not have access to improved sanitation.
And according to the U.N. children's agency UNICEF, polluted water and lack of basic sanitation claim the lives of over 1.5 million children every year, mostly from water-borne diseases.
The Taliban people are probably just smoking a lot of opium. Have you thought of that? They're really nothing but a bunch of drug lords,
Most dealers don't use their own product. No doubt the Taliban grows it and sells it, there is no evidence they use it.
Quote from: tekla on July 10, 2009, 02:02:42 PM
The Taliban people are probably just smoking a lot of opium. Have you thought of that? They're really nothing but a bunch of drug lords,
Most dealers don't use their own product. No doubt the Taliban grows it and sells it, there is no evidence they use it.
The evidence tells they do not even grow it they just provide security to transport it. They also use children to get it past check points.
Quote from: tekla on July 10, 2009, 12:57:49 AM
In fact there are large numbers of person in the US without TV, they tend to be like, successful, and make far beyond average income. Odd hunh?
I haven't had a television in six years and I'd like to say i'm pretty successful. And no, Sigma, the sound of television doesn't make me want to curl up into a ball and wail. It seems ridiculous to spend $200 (and much, much higher) for a television to then pay $50 or more for cable so I can sit down and space out. I'd rather read, get some work done or spend time outside of my apartment with real people.
Quote from: Mister on July 10, 2009, 02:23:02 PMAnd no, Sigma, the sound of television doesn't make me want to curl up into a ball and wail.
Oh, I know. I was just referring to my universal hatred for intrusive noise. I really hate it THAT much. I hate it so much that my levels of hatred for it deserve to be a named psychiatric illness.
QuoteIt seems ridiculous to spend $200 (and much, much higher) for a television to then pay $50 or more for cable so I can sit down and space out. I'd rather read, get some work done or spend time outside of my apartment with real people.
Or waste time with your netbook, which is what I mainly do when I am not creating mayhem. @.@
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 10, 2009, 02:33:25 PM
Or waste time with your netbook, which is what I mainly do when I am not creating mayhem. @.@
Giving me a netbook to work with would be like giving Tekla a karaoke machine and two flashlights for a 4 piece band.
Quote from: finewine on July 10, 2009, 12:33:34 AMIf we take our understandable empathy out of the equation, do folks here think intervention via aid etc. is the right or wrong strategy?
Putting aside the fact that empathy is necessary for giving aid in the first place, it depends on the type of aid being given. Right now, aid usually comes in the form of money, food, and water. These precious supplies are often taken by those who hold power in poorer countries. Those same individuals tend to be corrupt, and instead of distributing supplies they hoard them for themselves and the strongmen they surround themselves with. An example of this is Mogadishu, Somalia, in 1992/1993 when UN-supplied food and water meant to go to the general population, was horded and fought over by the warlords. Hundreds and possibly thousands starved.
A better alternative to this kind of "aid" given in the past, is to work with the local populace to see what their needs really are, instead of taking an ethnocentric viewpoint and just blindly throwing food/water/money at the problem. If we worked with the local population in these area and let them lead the way, we could help them pull themselves out of poverty. We should help them improve their infrastructure so they can eventually provide for themselves.
Maybe an irrigation system for farmers? Or a tractor or other means with which to help out on the farm and to take their goods to market? How about a well so the local children can have clean, fresh water? By providing the means to get the basics of life, power would return to the people and be taken out of the hands of the warlords/local militias who terrorize the populace.
Quote from: Mister on July 10, 2009, 02:39:27 PM
Giving me a netbook to work with would be like giving Tekla a karaoke machine and two flashlights for a 4 piece band.
Nail up the chicken wire and sell me a ticket - I've gotta see that gig :)
The next hacking frontier: Your brain?
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/07/10/mind.hacking/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/07/10/mind.hacking/index.html)
Quote"The first thing is to ask ourselves is, 'Could there be a security and privacy problem?'" Kohno said. "Asking 'Is there a problem?' gets you 90 percent there, and that's the most important thing."
Quote from: Fae on July 10, 2009, 02:44:46 PMA better alternative to this kind of "aid" given in the past, is to work with the local populace to see what their needs really are, instead of taking an ethnocentric viewpoint and just blindly throwing food/water/money at the problem. If we worked with the local population in these area and let them lead the way, we could help them pull themselves out of poverty. We should help them improve their infrastructure so they can eventually provide for themselves.
Actually, I think that the better strategy would be to discover what is preventing these tribespeople from forming their own, local governing body. Particularly when you are referring to tribespeople who are frequently raided by thugs like the Taliban, even moreso for those who think they NEED thugs like the Taliban somehow, a sounder strategy would be to assist them in developing a more-or-less organized, LOCAL regime for themselves. The best thing for their regional governments to do (the best entity for dealing with Pakistani tribespeople would be the Pakistani government. I am sure the government of Pakistan could be persuaded as to the soundness of this strategy), besides making sure they have the IDEA to actually DO this, would be to keep any would-be nuisances out of the way. I am sure that, once they just got together to discuss their issues, they should have no difficulty figuring things out for themselves. The usefulness of this just isn't OBVIOUS because, superficially, it's just a bunch of people who have no reason to give a hoot about each other crowding together in the same mosque twice a month and sharing a jumbo-sized bowl of muesli, just so they can see what is on each other's minds. You wouldn't think it could accomplish much. However, just as soon as two or three people said, "you know, we only need one Caterpiller to dig everyone within fifty miles from here a decent irrigation system within the next six years," the real power of self-government would assert itself. Why should these people need protection from the outside when they could very well put together their own humble police force, so they don't have to WORRY with thugs like the Taliban? You know? And nobody even needs to TELL them about these things. They are intelligent enough that, if they all got together, they would find solutions all on their own that work for THEM.
QuoteThey are intelligent enough that, if they all got together, they would find solutions all on their own that work for THEM.
Tell that to the women.
Quote from: lisagurl on July 10, 2009, 03:17:57 PMTell that to the women.
That's mostly the fault of orgs like the Taliban, and the IDEA is to get these tribespeople to communicate with each other, so they can eventually learn to keep law and order WITHOUT much external help. What makes the Taliban powerful is the fact that people think they NEED military organizations like the Taliban. Why put up with those thugs, when a local constable is a lot less trouble and makes better conversation? So let's say the government of Pakistan went out to where these tribespeople are settled, and all they asked these tribespeople to do was to just have some blockhead ride around on a donkey, say it was some poor sap with a gimpy leg who can't work anymore, and this guy has the job of making sure that, if one family or one tribe has a problem, a bunch of young volunteers are ready to come to their aide. It's a common sense idea, but a very busy farmer just doesn't have the time to THINK of it. Now, while these young volunteers are learning how to rescue kittens from trees, they are NOT running off to join the danged Taliban. They're already putting that hero-energy into something their families APPROVE of. This one simple idea, this one idea that seems completely simple and easy on the surface, could alter the course of history for their entire part of the world. Even though it's a simple, common-sense idea, though, a farmer has a very busy and hectic life, particularly where resources are very poor. They don't have the TIME to think about the big-picture because they are so focused on the particulars of their OWN lives.
Left to themselves, these tribespeople might not treat their women all great and groovy like WE want them to, but it would be a big improvement over how things are under the Taliban. It's something they themselves can build on.
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 10, 2009, 03:11:16 PM
Actually, I think that the better strategy would be to discover what is preventing these tribespeople from forming their own, local governing body. Particularly when you are referring to tribespeople who are frequently raided by thugs like the Taliban, even moreso for those who think they NEED thugs like the Taliban somehow, a sounder strategy would be to assist them in developing a more-or-less organized, LOCAL regime for themselves. The best thing for their regional governments to do (the best entity for dealing with Pakistani tribespeople would be the Pakistani government. I am sure the government of Pakistan could be persuaded as to the soundness of this strategy), besides making sure they have the IDEA to actually DO this, would be to keep any would-be nuisances out of the way. I am sure that, once they just got together to discuss their issues, they should have no difficulty figuring things out for themselves. The usefulness of this just isn't OBVIOUS because, superficially, it's just a bunch of people who have no reason to give a hoot about each other crowding together in the same mosque twice a month and sharing a jumbo-sized bowl of muesli, just so they can see what is on each other's minds. You wouldn't think it could accomplish much. However, just as soon as two or three people said, "you know, we only need one Caterpiller to dig everyone within fifty miles from here a decent irrigation system within the next six years," the real power of self-government would assert itself. Why should these people need protection from the outside when they could very well put together their own humble police force, so they don't have to WORRY with thugs like the Taliban? You know? And nobody even needs to TELL them about these things. They are intelligent enough that, if they all got together, they would find solutions all on their own that work for THEM.
Such a governing body already exists in many countries on a local, family basis whereas government exists within families and villages. The problem is that groups (you refer to the Taliban) are coming in with weapons, and intimidating these people with violence; such groups don't help those communities at all, they use those communities' fear as the basis of their power. Yes, I'm sure there are some educated people in these populations, but they do not have access to the means to a.) defend themselves, or b.) in some cases, provide the very essentials of life.
Take for instance the fact that, in refugee camps in Darfur, women need to walk several miles outside the safety of the camps to find food and water. They are exposed to thugs and militias, and many are raped and/or killed either to or from the source of water as "examples" so those thugs can stay in power
Furthermore, compared to the West, communities and watching out for your neighbors is very important in poorer countries; they're not just "a bunch of people who have no reason to give a hoot about each other crowding together in the same mosque twice a month" as you say. Don't degrade the lives of those people like that. Families in villages share responsibilities, and in some cases, different villages/tribes work together to solve problems that affect both of them.
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 10, 2009, 03:40:59 PM
That's mostly the fault of orgs like the Taliban, and the IDEA is to get these tribespeople to communicate with each other, so they can eventually learn to keep law and order WITHOUT much external help. What makes the Taliban powerful is the fact that people think they NEED military organizations like the Taliban. Why put up with those thugs, when a local constable is a lot less trouble and makes better conversation? So let's say the government of Pakistan went out to where these tribespeople are settled, and all they asked these tribespeople to do was to just have some blockhead ride around on a donkey, and this guy has the job of making sure that, if one family or one tribe has a problem, a bunch of young volunteers are ready to come to their aide. It's a common sense idea, but a very busy farmer just doesn't have the time to THINK of it. Now, while these young volunteers are learning how to rescue kittens from trees, they are NOT running off to join the danged Taliban. They're already putting that hero-energy into something their families APPROVE of. This one simple idea, this one idea that seems completely simple and easy on the surface, could alter the course of history for their entire part of the world. Even though it's a simple, common-sense idea, though, a farmer has a very busy and hectic life, particularly where resources are very poor. They don't have the TIME to think about the big-picture because they are so focused on the particulars of their OWN lives.
Left to themselves, these tribespeople might not treat their women all great and groovy like WE want them to, but it would be a big improvement over how things are under the Taliban. It's something they themselves can build on.
Again, people in these communities don't think they need people like the Taliban; those groups came to power through fear and intimidating the population into submission. Yes, while in some places there may exist a local "constable," but in many cases that person is corrupt and accepts bribes from the local militia/thugs to turn a blind eye when the village is raided/intimidated, or such an individual may indeed be part of the militia/thugs themselves.
By saying these people can't think of these ideas or don't have the time to, is very ethnocentric and racist. These are free-thinking individuals who are just in a rough spot, and if we bothered to ask them what they wanted, we could actually help them.
Quote from: Fae on July 10, 2009, 03:59:27 PMSuch a governing body already exists in many countries on a local, family basis whereas government exists within families and villages.
Well, apparently there are enough unoccupied young people leftover for the Taliban to pick up recruits. The Taliban isn't
forcing these kids into service, either. The Taliban offers them a chance, in their boring and deprived lives, to go off and play some bigshot hero. It's the same thing that motivates people on our own unpatrolled streets to become gangsters, or join some White Supremacist organization. Remember, the original idea behind the CRIPS was to bring a sense of order to the streets in a part of the USA where there was NOT a valid or trained police force in the area.
QuoteThe problem is that groups (you refer to the Taliban) are coming in with weapons, and intimidating these people with violence; such groups don't help those communities at all, they use those communities' fear as the basis of their power.
So these opium farmers (opium is a pretty big crop in this part of the world. It's used to make legit stuff like morphine, by the way) would really put up with these guys if they were nothing but a bunch of bullies. Way to go. You just portrayed them as spineless cowards who lack the capacity for standing up for themselves AT ALL. The point you are missing is the the Taliban DOES purport itself as giving these people some sort of service. That's one of the REASONS that the people put up with them.
QuoteTake for instance the fact that, in refugee camps in Darfur,
It doesn't help that the Sudanese are murdering the people in Darfur, and they are so utterly impoverished that their brains are probably being warped by malnutrition before they are even born. Darfur is a real basket case, and they have more enemies than friends.
QuoteBy saying these people can't think of these ideas or don't have the time to, is very ethnocentric and racist.
1) They are white people. The very existence of the Pashtun people is one of the reasons that I use the term, "Asiatic," when I am referring to Mongolic or Turkic Asians, which is what most people think of when you use the term, "Asian." The Pashtun people are just as Asian as any mongol, and so are the Tajik people and the Azeri people. They are a bunch of white people. How is it possible for me to be racist against a bunch of white people, people who are more closely related to me than the
Nihonjin (I looked it up. They are mostly the Yamoto, who are descended from a very hodgepodge collection of Mainland ethnicities who colonized the island in prehistoric times), who govern one of the most successful economies in the entire world, or the Han people, who constitute the majority of the population of the INCREDIBLY successful nation of Taiwan. You know, I am getting a little tired of being called a "racist." You guys don't know ANYTHING about me to be calling me that, and it's very insulting. It implies that I'm somehow very ignorant, and I think I've proven myself a lot more knowledgable than you guys regarding this subject matter.
2) I am basically treating them as I would treat some of the redneck bumpkins who live within twenty miles of me, many of whom I am related to. It is the
opposite of ethnocentrism when you are living according to the assumption that there is very little
inherent difference between people from your own culture, and people from other cultures.
You guys really DON'T seem to know much about this culture, whereas I DO. I actually COME from a family, my mother's side of the family to be exact, who have a very similar lifestyle to these people (although they are slowly choosing to go off and become engineers and accountants). I know how these people think. I have lived among them. I regularly attended the reunions until my father blackballed me because he was embarrassed over the fact that I am an atheist. These guys wake up at the butt-crack of dawn, and they don't stop working until they go to sleep at night. Any other time they have is spent tending to children and the elderly. They don't have TIME to think about things in terms of the big picture unless SOMEONE gives them the idea to do so. Once they have been GIVEN the idea, they can handle themselves WITHOUT any external aide.
QuoteThe Taliban isn't forcing these kids into service, either.
They buy kids for $6000 train them to blow themselves up then sell them for $12000.
Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 04:14:41 PM
Quote from: lisagurl on July 10, 2009, 05:13:58 PM
They buy kids for $6000 train them to blow themselves up then sell them for $12000.
Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 04:14:41 PM
And you thereby insinuate, through context, that this characterizes the manner in which MOST members of the Taliban join the organization. This really goes hand-in-hand with your usual pattern of mendacity, Lisa. Most Taliban recruits go in as volunteers. Perhaps they are being deceived, but it is incorrect to imply that they are being recruited by force.
QuoteTaliban leader Baitullah Mehsud has been increasingly using the children in attacks, the officials said. A video released by Pakistan's military shows the children training for the task.
In the video of a training camp, children can be seen going through exercises.
Mehsud has been selling the children, once trained, to other Taliban officials for $6,000 to $12,000, Pakistani military officials said.
QuoteA top Taliban leader in Pakistan is buying and selling children for suicide bombings, Pakistani and U.S. officials said.
Some of the recruits are forced like those in Africa. Some have no choice due to need of survival, Some are due to religious beliefs. Some are just paid mercenaries, some have no understanding of what is going on and follow their peers.
Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 06:28:20 PM
QuoteWASHINGTON — The mass killing of Taliban prisoners was carried out by the forces of an American-backed warlord during the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan.
Nobody is an angle in war.
Quote from: lisagurl on July 10, 2009, 06:21:54 PM
Some of the recruits are forced like those in Africa. Some have no choice due to need of survival, Some are due to religious beliefs. Some are just paid mercenaries, some have no understanding of what is going on and follow their peers.
Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 06:28:20 PM
Nobody is an angle in war.
Well, obviously, yes. Members of an organization like the Taliban probably do join under highly diverse circumstances.
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 10, 2009, 05:07:18 PM
So these opium farmers (opium is a pretty big crop in this part of the world. It's used to make legit stuff like morphine, by the way) would really put up with these guys if they were nothing but a bunch of bullies. Way to go. You just portrayed them as spineless cowards who lack the capacity for standing up for themselves AT ALL.
I did not say they were cowards. It's kind of hard to stand up for yourself when the other person has an assault rifle and you have nothing, unless you have a death wish.
Furthermore, I did not say you were ignorant, Sigma. I was merely saying that, from my perspective, your view seems ethnocentric, in that we just have to "give them the ideas" i.e. our western ideas. I know they get up early and work all day, but that doesn't mean they can't "think" of a better way to do things, these people do have brains after all.
I have two college degrees and I did study some of this stuff myself (History, Women's Issues--including world issues face by women and other impoverished people, and Sociology), so I kind of have a good handle on what I'm saying. That's all.
Quote from: Fae on July 10, 2009, 06:40:43 PM
I did not say they were cowards. It's kind of hard to stand up for yourself when the other person has an assault rifle and you have nothing, unless you have a death wish.
Or your people are more organized. Watch how these otters, here, approach that crocodile as a single, coordinated unit:
Otters will <not allowed> you up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MP03ed3i0#lq-hq)
It's like they are telepathically linked, isn't it? The thing is, people don't need much impetus to really act together as a coordinated whole. They often just need someone to give them the idea that they CAN. From there, it is just human nature to act together to resist against a hostile outsider, and there are a whole lot more able-bodied tribespeople out there than there are Taliban thugs.
Really, the first thing these tribespeople have to get out of their heads is that they are helpless without a bunch of assault weapons. They are like the worst rednecks ever. It's like they worship assault weapons or something. To tell you the truth, I think the worst thing the Pakistani government could do is send them a bunch of assault weapons. No, what would turn the tables on the Taliban would be to get the message to the people that true power comes from the heart, not from a weapon or any other outside source. The British police have mostly done without weapons for a long, long time.
And, again, part of the problem is that a lot of people accept the Taliban regime or tolerate it. The Taliban may be a gang of thugs, but they also act as a government in a part of the world where there is a major power vacuum. In part, they are applying an extreme form of Pashtun tribal codes, and, to these Pashtun tribespeople, it makes them look semi-legitimate. The message to send to the Pashtun tribespeople, then, is what's wrong with the Pashtun tribespeople applying their laws, not militant outsiders who come with weapons and disturb the peace?
QuoteFurthermore, I did not say you were ignorant, Sigma. I was merely saying that, from my perspective, your view seems ethnocentric, in that we just have to "give them the ideas" i.e. our western ideas.
A simple idea can make a lot of change. I don't think it's ethnocentric to hold that sentiment. To tell you the truth, I think you were just trying to slander and defame me, and I think you're full of crap.
QuoteI know they get up early and work all day, but that doesn't mean they can't "think" of a better way to do things, these people do have brains after all.
My Saxon ancestors had brains, too, but they never thought of these ideas, either. They were too busy beating each other with swords and getting drunk. It took the human race thousands of years and a lot of shot-in-the-dark, chance-in-hell coincidences to even come up with these ideas at all. But, you know, a couple of good ideas can really change the world.
QuoteI have two college degrees and I did study some of this stuff myself (History, Women's Issues--including world issues face by women and other impoverished people, and Sociology), so I kind of have a good handle on what I'm saying. That's all.
BS. You probably thought they were a bunch of Arabs or Turks or something, or why in the heck would you call me a "racist." You don't sound like you know much about that part of the world. In fact, I don't think you know a whole lot about people who live in small, tribal communities, whereas my family actually COMES from a small, tribal community just a few miles north of where I am right now.
I think people like you are part of the problem. The idea that these people are helpless against the Taliban just because the Taliban has assault weapons is part of what gives the Taliban their power. If the Pashtun chose to believe in themselves instead, they could seriously turn the tables.
Quote from: lisagurl on July 09, 2009, 08:08:37 PM
I understand Iceland is adding another Aluminum plant that will deplete Iceland's geothermal energy in the south in 70 years.
I see you don't have an understanding of what "geothermal energy" entails.
It's highly unlikely that the heat of the molten lava underneath Iceland can be "depleted" in the next 70 years.
Geothermal Energy is considered a "renewable energy source".
Also, I have to say:
Quote from: lisagurl on July 10, 2009, 01:42:53 PM
It is had to educate someone who believes that education is witchcraft or a western plot especially with an empty stomach and no clean water. They believe God will provide.
It should be interesting when you try to make a living.
That's an extremely racist thing to say.
Iceland Debates the Limits of Geothermal
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/iceland-debates-the-limits-of-geothermal/ (http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/iceland-debates-the-limits-of-geothermal/)
Wow. There are times when I'm still mildly surprised that I can still be stunned. But, there you have it.
What makes the Taliban powerful is the fact that people think they NEED military organizations like the Taliban.
Which would be so unlike, oh, China, or the USA? Seems to me both think they need some pretty powerful military organizations, with very powerful weapons, and the ability to project that power anywhere in the world at any time.
the best entity for dealing with Pakistani tribespeople would be the Pakistani government. I am sure the government of Pakistan could be persuaded as to the soundness of this strategy
That would be the military junta that holds power in some parts of the country, oversaw the assassination of its chief rival to power, and has so little control over other areas that some parts of the country seem to be in a state of civil war. But, the same government that has not only nuclear weapons, but delivery systems and pretty much hates us because they thing (truthfully to be sure) that we tend to side with India over them? That government? What little I am sure of is that its a hard road to convince a military junta in the midst of a civil war of anything resembling sharing power.
besides making sure they have the IDEA to actually DO this, would be to keep any would-be nuisances out of the way.
Like the Indian Army is to Pakistan, or like our army is in Afghanistan?
Remember, the original idea behind the CRIPS was to bring a sense of order to the streets in a part of the USA where there was NOT a valid or trained police force in the area.
They started out as what they are now, a capitalist organization set to control trade in a specific item, in this case, drugs.
It's kind of hard to stand up for yourself when the other person has an assault rifle and you have nothing, unless you have a death wish.
Or when you nation is under occupation (again) by an empire that uses an incredible array of weapons to subjugate the population? It's hard to stand up to attack aircraft and helicopters with only some assault rifles too, but you know what? They did it against the Soviet Union, and they are doing it against us too.
It's like they worship assault weapons or something.
Unlike, oh, say, us?
No, what would turn the tables on the Taliban would be to get the message to the people that true power comes from the heart, not from a weapon or any other outside source. The British police have mostly done without weapons for a long, long time.
Odd reading of history. And wrong. Power come from the barrel of a gun as Mao Zedong said. And the Brit police now are armed. And they never shied away from using weapons to subdue foreign populations in the name of empire, as they too, tried, unsuccessfully in Afghanistan.
My Saxon ancestors had brains, too, but they never thought of these ideas, either. They were too busy beating each other with swords and getting drunk. It took the human race thousands of years and a lot of shot-in-the-dark, chance-in-hell coincidences to even come up with these ideas at all.
Not true. The Greeks and Romans had theories of power and government back when the Saxons were still living in caves. Other older civilizations had similar concepts too, even before Greece and Rome.
And the New York TSlimes wonders why its going bankrupt. What a crock of BS.
I would be more concerned about Iceland disappearing in the North Atlantic, aka Atlantis, in the next 70 years.
I would go so far as to give the Atlantis Theories more credit than Iceland is going to run out of geothermal within the next 70 years.
There are similar arguments going on in Sonoma County about how much geothermal power can be tapped and for how long. Nothing is forever, and power is never free.
Kat...
My problem with the environmental types is that no solution you offer them is good enough. None.
I'm not about to go back to living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.
I'm not about to go back to living a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.
The current level of energy usage in the West (but with India and China not far behind) is not sustainable. While I doubt it's going to regress back to that level, I'm pretty sure a lot of this stuff is going to be scaled back (and economic factors are already at work doing that). Nothing is free, and nothing lasts forever - though nuclear waste comes close.
Kat...
Speaking of nuclear waste. Well not actual waste. I'm thinking more along the lines of the water in the "open cycle" part of reactor.
Couldn't one pull geothermal heat out of the ground, steam I imagine, run it through a power plant and expel the same water back into the ground. The water wouldn't be very hot, but at least around 85 degrees.
That said water would than reheat itself by way of geothermal heat.
It's a long way from 85 to boiling, and that could add to cooling the thermal vent, thus decreasing its lifetime.
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 10, 2009, 08:03:35 PM
Or your people are more organized. Watch how these otters, here, approach that crocodile as a single, coordinated unit:
Otters will <not allowed> you up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MP03ed3i0#lq-hq)
It's like they are telepathically linked, isn't it?
Wow...Otters. I'm so impressed. ::)
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 10, 2009, 08:03:35 PM
No, what would turn the tables on the Taliban would be to get the message to the people that true power comes from the heart, not from a weapon or any other outside source. The British police have mostly done without weapons for a long, long time.
While I'm all for peace and love, good luck getting that anti-weapon message to the people of countries where violence has been an every day occurrence for decades (and I'm not just talking about Central Asia here). Sure, it could happen...but not for a long, long time.
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 10, 2009, 08:03:35 PM
A simple idea can make a lot of change. I don't think it's ethnocentric to hold that sentiment.
Not when that idea originates from outside your own community, and is sometimes forced down your throat with the barrel of a gun, by, oh say, certain groups such as the Taliban. Just look at the way they treated women.
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 10, 2009, 08:03:35 PM
To tell you the truth, I think you were just trying to slander and defame me, and I think you're full of crap.
Wow...again, I'm so impressed. You can't counter my argument with your so-called "knowledge" of these people that you have to resort to name calling. Wonderful!
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 10, 2009, 08:03:35 PM
BS. You probably thought they were a bunch of Arabs or Turks or something, or why in the heck would you call me a "racist." You don't sound like you know much about that part of the world. In fact, I don't think you know a whole lot about people who live in small, tribal communities, whereas my family actually COMES from a small, tribal community just a few miles north of where I am right now.
Please don't make assumptions in regard to my education. Despite being an American, I do have a brain and I do exercise it. I happen to know the difference between Arabs and Turks and Pashtun's, I don't just lump them all into one category and call them all "arabs" like some people. Don't insult my intelligence and DON'T belittle me as if I were an infant.
If you can't play nice, then please leave. I don't have anything more to say to you Sigma. Good day.
Quote from: tekla on July 10, 2009, 08:41:03 PM
It's kind of hard to stand up for yourself when the other person has an assault rifle and you have nothing, unless you have a death wish.
Or when you nation is under occupation (again) by an empire that uses an incredible array of weapons to subjugate the population? It's hard to stand up to attack aircraft and helicopters with only some assault rifles too, but you know what? They did it against the Soviet Union, and they are doing it against us too.
Tekla, I was referencing when a tribal group or village is faced with the threats and intimidation of a local militia (i.e. thugs with guns in a few technicals), not during times of war involving "modern" weapons such as attack helicopters.
good luck getting that anti-weapon message to the people of countries where violence has been an every day occurrence for decades (and I'm not just talking about Central Asia here). Sure, it could happen
Good luck getting anyone from the United States to preach that message without everyone listening wetting their pants from laughing so hard. Hell if that works we could perhaps get Keith Richards to take a strong anti-drug stance, and get Jenna Jameson out doing a modesty campaign.
Quote from: tekla on July 10, 2009, 09:36:48 PM
good luck getting that anti-weapon message to the people of countries where violence has been an every day occurrence for decades (and I'm not just talking about Central Asia here). Sure, it could happen
Good luck getting anyone from the United States to preach that message without everyone listening wetting their pants from laughing so hard. Hell if that works we could perhaps get Keith Richards to take a strong anti-drug stance, and get Jenna Jameson out doing a modesty campaign.
That's probably the last thing we need...the US preaching to the world what to do. Oh wait, don't we do that already? :eusa_wall:
And if you don't listen, we'll just bomb you.
DO AS WE SAY, NOT AS WE DO!!!
Quote from: lisagurl on July 10, 2009, 08:26:18 PM
Iceland Debates the Limits of Geothermal
http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/iceland-debates-the-limits-of-geothermal/ (http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/iceland-debates-the-limits-of-geothermal/)
That's a blog, and there's no link to the original source of the news.
The debate we had here however, as covered by the local news, which I'm aware you can not access, is more in regards to whether or not to build another hydroelectric dam to support the "new" aluminum plant (it's not a new one actually but an extension to an existing one... can't even get that tidbit right).
Quote from: Fae on July 10, 2009, 09:27:55 PMWow...Otters. I'm so impressed. ::)
I certainly am. I like them. They have gumption. Usually, that's all it takes to get the better of a bully.
QuoteWhile I'm all for peace and love, good luck getting that anti-weapon message to the people of countries where violence has been an every day occurrence for decades (and I'm not just talking about Central Asia here). Sure, it could happen...but not for a long, long time.
That was not the point. You were insisting that these tribespeople should submit to these Taliban thugs unless they really do have a death wish, and the basis of your argument was that the Taliban has assault weapons. Now, although it would be ridiculous for these tribespeople to take on the full brunt of the Taliban without the help of an adequate military (that is a job for the Pakistani government, which has had some late successes against the Taliban), you could take on one jeep and a couple of thugs with a bag of marbles and a few young men who are aware of the fact that these thugs can't aim for squat. If this were happening to them all over the Tribal Belt, the Taliban would end up being stretched so thin that the Pakistani government could mop them up quite handily. After all, America won its independence from the British precisely because the British had too many things on their plate at the time.
QuoteNot when that idea originates from outside your own community, and is sometimes forced down your throat with the barrel of a gun, by, oh say, certain groups such as the Taliban. Just look at the way they treated women.
Okay, this is getting silly.
Notion #1: an oppressive regime (ie, the Taliban) who really is forcing a particular lifestyle down people's throats. You see, I don't think it's very proper to cross our arms and take no action at all while these creeps are terrorizing the countryside.
Notion #2: suggesting to the Pakistani government that it would be really useful to encourage better lines of communication between the various people who inhabit their Tribal Belt, and have a little bit of faith in their willingness to act in their own defense when confronted with a relatively small group of thugs who have made the mistake of believing that they are the almighty middle-finger of God just because they have a bunch of assault weapons. You see, I think that this would be a much better airing for the power of democracy and self-rule than that horrid business in Iraq.
QuotePlease don't make assumptions in regard to my education. Despite being an American, I do have a brain and I do exercise it. I happen to know the difference between Arabs and Turks and Pashtun's, I don't just lump them all into one category and call them all "arabs" like some people. Don't insult my intelligence and DON'T belittle me as if I were an infant.
Excuse me. I am a little bit accustomed, on this forum, to dealing with people who believe that I should bow to their
divine knowledge in things like molecular biochemistry and neuroscience just because they worked for the electric company for a while. I was wrong to confuse you with them, and I apologize.
However, I think that you still owe
me an apology for calling me a "racist." Although you
did soften your accusation of me being "ethnocentric," and I recognize that, I'm still feeling very stung. Those same two were trying to color me as racist a while ago, and I'm very up in arms over that subject.
Notion #1: an oppressive regime (ie, the Taliban, the occupying American Empire) who really is forcing a particular lifestyle down people's throats.
There, fixed it for you.
And what makes you think they want a democracy? Nothing I've ever seen. They might start by not killing the other people running for office I guess, sort of as a start.
Quote from: tekla on July 11, 2009, 11:07:50 AM
Notion #1: an oppressive regime (ie, the Taliban, the occupying American Empire) who really is forcing a particular lifestyle down people's throats.
There, fixed it for you.
On that note, the Northern Alliance could be taught to handle their affairs in Afghanistan in quite the same way. By building up self-sufficiency and self-confidence among the various tribes in Afghanistan, they could leave much more of their resources available for fighting against their enemy. Their enemy is
not the tribespeople of Afghanistan. Those are the good guys, and they would be perfectly capable of largely handling their own affairs if someone just told them that they can and should. The way they're doing things right now, even a big feminist organization in Afghanistan is saying they miss the Taliban. Why, huh? Maybe because the Northern Alliance is using too many strong-arm tactics and doing too little to build up a
truly functioning, sustainable government, which is largely a semi-decentralized and self-sustaining organism.
Where exactly in Afghan history do you find any tradition of this?
Quote from: tekla on July 11, 2009, 11:36:45 AM
Where exactly in Afghan history do you find any tradition of this?
Speaking in riddles won't save you.
Now, tell us all about how Pakistan is ruled by a military junta. Go ahead, daffodil. You know, Pakistan really isn't as much of a basket case as you are making it out to be. Things really aren't all that much different there from how they are here. You see these pictures of the most troubled parts of their country, but the pictures you will not see on the news are the ones that show a bunch of Pakistani teenagers who look for all the world like New Yorkers. The media makes them look so different, but they are truly the same flesh-and-blood kinds of people. Their Tribal Belt isn't their whole country. The people who live in the Tribal Belt, though, have the same genes as those people who live in their cities, being slowly poisoned to death by the same kind of air pollution they have in Los Angeles. Their government has also had a few successes of late in their war with the Taliban.
You guys accuse me of being racist and ethnocentric when I say the kinds of things about the people in their Tribal Belt that I would say about similar groups of people in my own country, who are of the same ethnicity as myself. You have no grounds for making this accusation at all. You are making up excuses to slur and slander my name, and you ought to be ashamed of yourselves. You, on the other hand, really are saying things that are incredibly racist, bigoted, and ethnocentric. You are treating them as if their religion makes their culture inferior, you and Lisa. You are religious bigots. Shame on you. Not only do you lack the grounds to call me "ethnocentric" or "racist," but you are not even in any position to make this sort of accusation. Quit trying to slur and slander my name just because I call you out on your BS.
daffodil? Gee, that a lot nicer name than the people I work with like to use. And they like me (so they say.) They used to call me Tinkerbell, but when I started to take off the climbing harness and hand it over to them, all of a sudden Tinkerbell wasn't meant 'in a bad way.' Funny how some very macho types get so ascared when they are asked to climb a 35 foot wire-rope ladder and hang upside down on a metal pipe 38 feet above the floor. Like I tell them, its mind over matter as anything over a ten foot fall is going to kill them anyway. They just splat more at 38 feet.
The last election was a total sham, which is what happens when you blow up the opposition leader. (to be sure, they didn't blow her up, they set off a bomb, the force of which threw her head into the car with such force that it killed her - it did kill 28 other people, and injured another 100, so not a minor explosion). So what they have is an extension of the military (the world sixth largest, BTW) and a continuation of the policies of the last guy in charge, who led a Coup de etat in 1999, in a country that's almost the modern model for a military coup. The 'election' of Asif Ali Zardari was not anything more than a replacing of a figurehead, while leaving the military in control.
And ya know what, I went to grad school with a number of people from Pakistan, and they are not just like us. That's just dumb old American thinking. They are not just like kids in New York, just because they wear the same shirt. Pakistan is a theocratic state - official name, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan - and as such, is very, very different from anything we understand unless you've ever lived in one.
And hey, I'm not trying to slander your name, you're doing so well on your own.
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 11, 2009, 11:05:12 AM
You were insisting that these tribespeople should submit to these Taliban thugs unless they really do have a death wish, and the basis of your argument was that the Taliban has assault weapons.
Nowhere in my posts did I say tribal people
should submit to thugs. I was pointing out that their other options are limited. Yes, you have a point in that they could stand together against the thugs, but there's a good chance that a lot of them would be killed in doing so. Many are, understandably, probably more interested in living, despite the hardships. Now, that may not be the feeling across the board for all these people, but perhaps a good deal of them think this way. Otherwise, regimes like the Taliban probably wouldn't have lasted as long as they did. As Tekla said earlier, those who have guns/weapons tend to hold power over those who don't. This has been proven throughout history.
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 11, 2009, 11:05:12 AM
You see, I don't think it's very proper to cross our arms and take no action at all while these creeps are terrorizing the countryside.
I agree, we shouldn't just stand idly by. Where you and I disagree is on how to best help these people. Difference of opinion.
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 11, 2009, 11:05:12 AM
Excuse me. I am a little bit accustomed, on this forum, to dealing with people who believe that I should bow to their divine knowledge in things like molecular biochemistry and neuroscience just because they worked for the electric company for a while. I was wrong to confuse you with them, and I apologize.
Apology accepted, just please be more considerate in the future.
Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 11, 2009, 11:05:12 AM
However, I think that you still owe me an apology for calling me a "racist." Although you did soften your accusation of me being "ethnocentric," and I recognize that, I'm still feeling very stung. Those same two were trying to color me as racist a while ago, and I'm very up in arms over that subject.
Earlier, I believe you stated that people of Central Asia, like the Pashtun's, are "white" and closely related to white people of European descent. I felt at the time of my comment that this was not correct, which led to the racist comment. I believed you were somehow downplaying the lives of tribal people and lumping them in with white Europeans. I feel that they are two different people's. In any case, I was pretty harsh and I apologize for calling you a racist.
Quote from: tekla on July 11, 2009, 02:57:06 PM
daffodil? Gee, that a lot nicer name than the people I work with like to use. And they like me (so they say.) They used to call me Tinkerbell, but when I started to take off the climbing harness and hand it over to them, all of a sudden Tinkerbell wasn't meant 'in a bad way.' Funny how some very macho types get so ascared when they are asked to climb a 35 foot wire-rope ladder and hang upside down on a metal pipe 38 feet above the floor. Like I tell them, its mind over matter as anything over a ten foot fall is going to kill them anyway. They just splat more at 38 feet.
You mean...you don't know the meaning...of the term..."daffodil." Wow. Okay, find a synonym for "daffodil." I'm not going to help you more than that. I mean...wow.
You know, you are not the only person out there who isn't scared of heights. It's not "mind over matter," either. Some people just suffer from an instinctive sense of discomfort when there is a certain amount of distance between themselves and the ground. I don't suffer from that, but I don't have any contempt toward people who do. I have issues of my own. Part of the reason I'm so comfortable with heights is that people who suffer from bipolar disorder have a propensity for seeking out dangerous situations. I am not perfect. A tigress is just as flawed and human as a mouse.
QuoteThe last election was a total sham, which is what happens when you blow up the opposition leader. (to be sure, they didn't blow her up, they set off a bomb, the force of which threw her head into the car with such force that it killed her - it did kill 28 other people, and injured another 100, so not a minor explosion). So what they have is an extension of the military (the world sixth largest, BTW) and a continuation of the policies of the last guy in charge, who led a Coup de etat in 1999, in a country that's almost the modern model for a military coup. The 'election' of Asif Ali Zardari was not anything more than a replacing of a figurehead, while leaving the military in control.
Asif Ali Zardari is Bhutto's widower. Tekla, even Thailand, which is a relatively liberal and modern country for the most part, has been through periods of military rule and political strife. They are essentially a constitutional monarchy right now because those modern, forward-thinking Thais who live in the urban centers decided that they didn't want to be bossed around by someone who was elected by a bunch of backwards, undereducated country bumpkins and the rabble in their own cities. A lot of perfectly valid countries have been through periods of political instability. Pakistan needn't be any exception.
QuoteAnd ya know what, I went to grad school with a number of people from Pakistan, and they are not just like us.
My experiences differ. I am probably a lot younger than you are, though, and a great deal has probably changed since you were in grade school.
QuoteThat's just dumb old American thinking.
Tekla, 1) you are wrong. 2) your jingoistic butt, which I applaud you for training yourself to use for typing on a keyboard, is in no position to say this at all.
QuotePakistan is a theocratic state - official name, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan - and as such, is very, very different from anything we understand unless you've ever lived in one.
It's really not all that much different, Tekla. Even in Iran, most younger women who live in dense, urban centers outside of Tehran don't pay any heed to the country's dress code. If they do, they pay it the absolute minimum heed, just enough to keep from being harrassed, and they
don't generally run around in beekeeper suits. The reason that so many Pakistani women still opt for the traditional garb is that their country has not made as much progress yet in becoming industrialized. The country IS inching forward, though. Their urban centers have seen astronomical growth over the past few decades. Part of the federal government's plans for the Tribal Belt is to bring about industrialization and improved standards of education in these areas, which will hopefully result, over time, in propelling the Tribal Belt OUT of the stone age.
Post Merge: July 11, 2009, 06:36:36 AM
Quote from: Fae on July 11, 2009, 02:59:59 PM
Nowhere in my posts did I say tribal people should submit to thugs. I was pointing out that their other options are limited. Yes, you have a point in that they could stand together against the thugs, but there's a good chance that a lot of them would be killed in doing so. Many are, understandably, probably more interested in living, despite the hardships.
That is the point. It's a natural, human assumption. It's just wrong. Once people realize this, everything changes. Even passive resistance, which would not necessarily lead to anyone being killed, would help stretch out the Taliban's resources, and this would make the Taliban a lot more vulnerable to attack by the Americans and the relatively legitimate government of Pakistan. A few attitude shifts could change the world.
QuoteAs Tekla said earlier, those who have guns/weapons tend to hold power over those who don't. This has been proven throughout history.
100 tribespeople vs. 2 heavily armed thugs and a jeep is a pretty even match under normal circumstances. 10 well-trained tribespeople who are armed with bee-bee guns vs. 2 heavily armed thugs: I'm betting on the ones who are armed with the bee-bee guns. Tactics and training mean everything, numbers to a slightly lesser extent.
Warfare is also mostly psychological. If the people in these tribal communities were to show a higher level of organization than the Taliban, that in itself would deal a blow to the Taliban even IF these people superficially cooperated when confronted with superior firepower.
Besides, I may be an atheist, but I took the story of David and Goliath very much to heart. A little gumption and slingshot wins against pure, brute force every time, in my opinion.
QuoteEarlier, I believe you stated that people of Central Asia, like the Pashtun's, are "white" and closely related to white people of European descent. I felt at the time of my comment that this was not correct, which led to the racist comment. I believed you were somehow downplaying the lives of tribal people and lumping them in with white Europeans. I feel that they are two different people's. In any case, I was pretty harsh and I apologize for calling you a racist.
U-u-ut....um, whatever. I'm not going to nitpick over details. Accepted without reservation.
Post Merge: July 12, 2009, 07:09:38 AM
You fools would have prevented the French and the Scots, who were self-motivated themselves, from intervening to help the English nobility when the
Magna Carta was signed. If they hadn't intervened, though, the Parliamentarians would not have HAD that all-important symbol that represents their right to self-determination. We would still be ruled by an absolute monarch that works us like slaves until we drop, just to prove that he can.
Look, the Pashtun culture is not this pristine, indigeonous culture, untouched and untarnished by the modern West. They are a bunch of rednecks. There is nothing in their genetics that makes them this way. Our own ancestors had the same kind of lifestyle and
worse for thousands of years. Only a few hundred years ago, my own ancestors were beating each other with swords and worshipping the most disgusting and self-glorifying god that Mankind has ever come up with. There was nothing peaceful or pure or "bucolic" about THEIR existence, either. That's what this is really all about, isn't it? Look, go squeeze dirt between your own toes: it's not going to hurt the Pashtun people to be exposed to a few Western ideas. It didn't hurt MY ancestors to be exposed to them. At the time, they were Greek ideas. They took those GREEK ideas, and they bucked the authority of those jerks who were claiming, at the time, that it was their God-given right to take anything they wanted. Besides, the Pakistani government's policy, right now, is to ENFORCE industrialization on the Federally Administered Zone or whatever they call it. My way is a lot more respectful toward the people who actually LIVE in the Tribal Belt, thanks. And no, the Pakistani government wouldn't have to "give up" any power at all. They'd just be GAINING an important ally against the enemies within their own country.
The one thing that would MOST change them would be the same thing that helped the English and Western Europe so long ago: interaction and communication. Interaction and communication with each other. Interaction and communication with other cultures. This is what BUILDS a democracy, and I know this because this is how we created our own democratic institutions so long ago. An elected dictator is still a dictator, but a culture that shares among one another can never be held under the thumb of a tyrant. And it's not a sin to share with others the parts of our culture that
we take the most pride in; in this case, it would be a sin to withhold them.
My strategy is to give the Pashtun a gentle nudge, simply through dialogue and not through force, toward
unifying around a simple idea that changed
our lives a long time ago. That central idea is self-determination. The beauty of it is that, if you put a bunch of different leaders from different places in the same room for a while, they will come up with the idea without anybody ever having to mention it. Communication and the exchange of ideas makes all the difference. All my ancestors had to do was put their heads together, and I don't see why it should be any different for the Pashtun.
The people who are criticizing me seem to think it's "ethnocentric" to want the Pashtun to change. However, their so-called solution revolves around sending in US troops to Afghanistan to fight against the Taliban, doing nothing to alter the way things are for the Pashtun. Well, then the Pashtun will come under the rule of a group that is just as bad as the Taliban, and the US will have to go there again. If we only continue doing this, what are we really? We are nothing but a military junta from a foreign country, acting as "benevolent" dictators. When the Northern Alliance proves that it is really nothing but a different face for the same troubled society that
resulted in the Taliban, we will have to turn around and put
them down. And you know who will probably be helping us do it? Probably another group of people like the Northern Alliance and the Taliban. Maybe even the Taliban itself. This would be quite an irony.
On the other hand, creating a sense of community among all of the Pashtun and encouraging dialogue among them...well, without anyone having to tell them to, they could replicate all of the best parts of our own history.
I will tell you guys what offends you about all that: you are treating this culture like it's some kind of rainforest. You seem to think that the intrusion of Western ideas would upset some kind of cultural homeostasis or something stupid like that. Look, no culture is
ever an island, no matter how much, in your ideological fantasy world, you would like to think it is. The Pashtun people have been through periods of social change repeatedly, throughout their history. If they could be taught to stand together, though, it would be the first period of social change in which they were ultimately in charge of their own destinies. We needn't give them food or weapons or clothing. They need unity, and unity is the child of communication.
The Northern Alliance is going to become a problem child eventually. Let's not make the same mistakes with them that we made in dealing with the Taliban. Instead, let's try to apply the lessons of history, both the good and the bad. Let's go back to the roots of what made us what we are. We could change things for them just by suggesting, not pushing anything on them that all, that it would be a nifty idea for their children to start having penpals from other tribes in other parts of Afghanistan or Pakistan. If they can't write, they can just draw pictures to each other. I don't think they would reject that, either. All the grannies there would probably love the idea. I am a believer in the power of communication to create the best kind of social change. I think that what made America what it is was the freedom to peacefully assemble.
By the way, for you retards who live under the delusion that these third-world countries are all peaceful and bucolic-like, I will have you know that Pakistan's largest city is actually the most disgustingly polluted city in the entire world. On the other hand, us evil, air-polluting Westerners, us AMERICANS, have two of the CLEANEST areas in the entire world, which are, surprise-surprise, WORLD CENTERS of technological development!!!!! And our technology, by the way, is a lot more efficient and a lot cleaner than what the Pakistanis are using. I see the game you guys are playing. You see Western culture like it's some kind of cancer, even though it's us EVIL WESTERNERS, not a bunch of people in Sub-Saharan Africa where people are cutting down rainforests for wood to sell to the Chinese, who don't care at all about what they do to the environment YET because they don't HAVE that luxury, who are really making the push to make changes for the better in how we USE our resources.
You conservationist fanatics have EVERYTHING backwards. EVERYTHING you believe is wrong. I'm not angry at you over your views, though. Far from it. I'm just concerned over the fact that you clowns tend to perceive ANYONE who doesn't tow the line with YOUR views as part of this vast, right-wing conspiracy to destroy the planet. I've known plenty of conservationists who actually ARE open to new ideas, and I respect them even though I disagree with them on some points. But you guys are just as closed-minded and bigoted as Fred Phelps. You believe different things, but you have a lot more in common with him than you do me, I think.
By the way, Tekla, when you call someone a "daffodil," you are just telling them that they are really conceited and full of of themselves. How ironic, Tekla, that you answered to this by getting all pumped up about how courageous and macho you are. You played right into it because you assumed, just because I don't think the way you do, that I'm exactly like everyone else that you hate and despise. Besides, you may think you're macho and cool to risk your neck, but here is what everyone tells me when I tell them about that time I drove several miles with a rattlesnake curled up in the passenger seat after rescuing it using my bare hands from the middle of a four-lane: "you were an idiot." Yep. It was pretty stupid, but I thought at the time I was doing a good deed. My amygdala is MALFUNCTIONAL (maybe I can dig up those scans someday, but they're probably long-gone), and it behaves in really really weird ways. That doesn't necessarily make me superior or INFERIOR to anyone else. It just means that I am DIFFERENT.
On that note, I'm being treated like dirt here for EXACTLY that reason. You guys have all taken the mentality that, just because my views are DIFFERENT, I must be the most horrible, evil person in the whole, wide world, and you've been calling me every name you can to try to degrade me. Jerks.