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It's a book written a long time ago. Many of the things written in the Bible have been proven to be wrong. The ideas prevalent at the time of the writings have evolved and are more human friendly. Why does a book written 2000 years ago carry so much weight with so many?

Okay, I know about divine intervention and I know about "you must have faith" but I just don't buy that. No one can guarantee that the people writing or translating the Bible were under divine inspiration.  No one!

There are thousands of contradictions in the Bible and there are people everywhere who interpret what the Bible says differently. If the Bible was written "by the hand of God" why so many contradictions?  Why can it be interpreted differently? If God is perfect, wouldn't He have avoided allowing contradictions?  Wouldn't he have made sure everyone understands what is written, without question?   

And all these people who go to the Bible and say "Jesus said..." are incorrect because Jesus didn't write a single word in the Bible.  It's all second or third hand accounts of his life.

Have you ever been part of a communications/listening seminar where they have one person whisper something into the ear of the person sitting next to them who then turns and does the same to the person on the other side? I did once and by the time it had gone through 12 people it wasn't even close to what it was when it started.

Ten people see the same thing happen and you get ten different accounts. 

So all these people who were writing about what they saw and heard could be well guilty of taking what they saw and heard and telling their version of it. And if you believe the man you are writing about is the son of God and what he's doing isn't quite exactly amazing, well... ::)

I'm not saying as a history book there aren't things in the Bible that are true but that doesn't mean it's imperative I live my life according to it.

I don't mean to upset anyone but when I have Bible thumpers throw verses at someone because they don't approve of them and this causes droves of people to rally behind them, then it's time to take a serious look at this book that they are using to condemn their fellow human being.

The general concept of what is written in the Bible, I believe, is good.  But I will never refer to it as a guideline on how to live my life and, more importantly, as a guideline how anyone else should live their life. 

Julie

QuoteHave you ever been part of a communications/listening seminar where they have one person whisper something into the ear of the person sitting next to them who then turns and does the same to the person on the other side? I did once and by the time it had gone through 12 people it wasn't even close to what it was when it started.

There are a number of different issues when it comes to the accuracy of the bible; historical accuracy, scientific accuracy and accuracy of translation.

Previously Laura Hope had asserted that the accuracy is astoundingly good (at least as far as content compared to the earliest available manuscripts) due to overwhelming consistency between multiple sources.  As the thread in question didn't hinge on the issue, it wasn't worth picking up.

Laura was reasonably correct, however there are well documented translation "mutations" and some of these are described, ironically, by various religious individuals or denominations who compete with each other over who is the most accurate.

The original documents don't exist.  We do have the dead sea scrolls covering various parts of the "old testament" with a number of other documents, all well after the approximate lifetime of Jesus (or his disciples), that claim to be reproductions of the gospels etc..

It's not possible to know how accurate the documents we do have are, as there's no "original" to compare them with.  They're broadly in agreement with each other, though.

We also know that the contextual meaning of language is mutable - just look at Chaucer to see how the intended meaning of words can drift over time.  (In fact, look how quickly modern English changes).  There are plenty of places where the exact meaning of an ancient Hebrew, Coptic or even Greek term could be subtly different - we don't have many native speakers of ancient tongues, so we rely on scholars to find consensus.  Then, of course, you have deliberate bias creeping in - KJV for example.  I believe this whole topic is covered in good detail in "Truth in Translation: Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament " by Jason DeBuhn.

Finally, given that we seem inordinately incapable of accurately reproducing information, reports or anecdotes in the 21st century without error, despite all the technological aids at our disposal, it seems unlikely that the scriptures have not been subject to some drift over a couple of thousand years.

Anyway, how significant is this?  Surely the idea is to take the key messages to heart rather than get into pissing matches over largely semantic differences (especially as some passages most definitely need re-interpretation with a modern eye).

I imagine there'll be similar arguments in another 1000 years or so about who's got the most accurate Dungeons & Dragons manual.  That's about the same as arguing over the accuracy of scripture to my mind :)

Finewine, I just love the intelligent, articulate and non-emotional way you presented your information.  Thank you! And Nichole, your observations about the languages is spot on.

You've both proven discussions can be had about the Bible that don't lead to overly emotional or irrational debate.

But I have to ask, what would happen if some of the accounts written in the Bible happened today?

"Hey Moe! How's it going?

"Hi Don.  You wouldn't believe what happened to me the other day!

"Oh, what's that?"

"Well I went mountain climbing and I got to talk to God."

"Huh?!?

"Yeah, I talked to God."

"Did He talk back?"

"Well actually he talked to me first."

"Were you high?"

"No, no, completely sober. Anyway, there he was talking to me..."

"He appeared before you?"

"Well, not exactly. There was this bush that was on fire..."

"Did you put it out?"

"No, not that kind of fire, it was on fire but it wasn't burning up and God's voice came from there."

"So there was a bush that was on fire but it really wasn't and the voice of God was coming out of it talking to you..."

"Yeah, it was really cool and He was telling me all kinds of things I need to do to lead his people out of this land and..."

"Hey Moe. You and I have been friends for a long time. Can I suggest you keep this to yourself?"

;)Julie

Julie,

I look at the Bible as a guideline, especially the 4 Gospels.  However, you cannot let ANY single book dictate your life for you.  It removes responsibility for one's choices because you can always say, "God told me to do this because it is in the Bible!"

Exodus gives the early Hebrew Nation an origin - a starting point.  This is the same starting point we Christians have accepted as our own.  Everyone wants to know where they came from.  Any parent reading understands this by their little one asking that same question!

The Ancients had no concept of evolution, the true age of the Earth, genetics and a score of topics that are an everyday part of our lives today.  Could you imagine explaining to the Ancients the details of DNA replication?  No, they weren't ready for such information.

Unfortunately, there are far too many people who would rather point to a book, ANY book, and use that as their sole explaination for everything.  Afterall, thinking is hard work...and there is a ball game on.

It is easier to let someone or something make decisions for you than take responsibility for your own actions.  And someone telling you that "its in the Bible" has already done the hard work for you.  Why read when someone else has read it for you?  Why think when someone else has already thought it through for you?  I'll just wait for the movie - or the video game. 

Yes, i am a practicing Catholic.  Yes, Ratzinger is a jackass and I refuse to acknowledge him as pope.  Yes, I believe in God's love for all of us - even those who say they do not believe.  I believe that Jesus is with us as we come out to our families and fight for our Civil Rights.

I believe that Jesus would today stand up tothe modern day pharasies claming to speak in God's name - just as He did 2000 years ago.

That is because there is more to Scripture than simply reading words.  There is the spirit in which it was written, the times in which pen was put to paper.  And the Spirit that moves us to new understandings.

Why think when a book will do it for you?  No, that is not the way.

Rather, I ask why let a book speak for you when the Spirit is ready to work through you instead?

Biblical infallibility is a central tenant in most Christian sects.

Note in this page that biblical inconsistencies are believed to be totally absent.
http://www.faithfacts.org/search-for-truth/questions-of-christians/is-the-bible-really-gods-word (http://www.faithfacts.org/search-for-truth/questions-of-christians/is-the-bible-really-gods-word)

Jesus is said to have indicated that the old testament is God's word. 

The protestant Bible is different than the Catholic one and that both were assembled from works existing hundreds of years after the first Christians.  Essentially, the Bible that we know today is a work of a committee.  In Jesus's time, there was no one single book.

I can see the problems with the inconsistencies in the Bible when before when I was an evangelical I could not see them.  I can see now that the rational person must take a critical attitude toward the Bible. 

Maggie

For decades the Bible, to me, was a book that sat in my desk drawer that had all the birth information for my siblings and kids. Oh yeah, and they read from it at church.

But after I came out and was awakened to the discrimination LGBT people face and how so many of our detractors fought to deny us our inalienable rights by using quotes from the Bible, very successfully I might add, I felt it imperative I focus on this ancient book that so many let dictate their lives.  And worse, used it to justify their prejudice and hatred and to spread fear.

I have no problem with the Bible and I understand it serves a wonderful purpose for so many.  What I do have a problem with is the so-called religious leaders who use the words from it to lead others to follow them in their campaign against those who are different.  When people are blindly following obviously evil leaders because they think the Bible says they should, I feel compelled to expose it for what it is, an old book written with good intentions and now abused by making wrong look right.

It's not the book, it's the people.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on July 31, 2009, 11:38:35 AM

It's not the book, it's the people.

Julie

Julie,
So true and what is especially shameful is these people "Bear false witness" against us by telling lies and use deceit against us.  When I was in the church, we didn't ever do that.  Now, it seems that there are some sects that are just short of advocating violence.  I am stunned by these not so fringe groups.  It seems as we gain more acceptance, they ramp up to become more and more extremist even to the point of breaking their own morality.

Maggie

well gee sis, so much for the pitiful reply I was writing. lol But yeah, what Nichole said.  ;D

Quote from: Julie Marie on July 31, 2009, 11:38:35 AM

But after I came out and was awakened to the discrimination LGBT people face and how so many of our detractors fought to deny us our inalienable rights by using quotes from the Bible, very successfully I might add, I felt it imperative I focus on this ancient book that so many let dictate their lives.  And worse, used it to justify their prejudice and hatred and to spread fear.
Julie

Well my dear Julie, I guess I am one of those who believe in the Book, or more accurately the One the Book points us to.  So I suppose I am one of the ones you have such a problem with.  I am very sorry for that.

Yes there are some contradictions.  Thousands?  Absolutely not.  There are a number of paradoxes, things that are difficult to understand, and require study and research.  Yes, the Bible speaks to a certain people in a certain culture.  And yes, it can be difficult separating the cultural stuff from the message behind it, but it can be done.  When this is done, I find the message amazingly consistent.  When that is not done, the results, as you know, can be disastrous.  Further, the manuscript shows a different history than you espouse.  But that is another discussion for another time.

Please accept my deepest apology for being such a horrible person.  Apparently I am the problem, not the book.

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QuoteApparently I am the problem, not the book.

You are right, it is the actions taken on beliefs not the imagination of those who wrote it.

Why do people get wrapped up in it?  Easy, when it's well written, its as good as anything else, and a few of those authors (plural) who wrote some of the books (again plural) are among the best writers ever.  Through out all time.  Just take Genesis - such mindblowing perfect writing is hard to find really:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Throughout all science and folk/mythology and various religions past and present, how many millions of words have been written down trying to explain "Well, how did we get here?"  And there, in one paragraph, is the entire whole of creation laid out.  Who cares if its true?  I don't think it was meant to be true, it was meant to explain, and it does that.

And when Jesus it talking - really Jesus talking, and not some other commentator or writer - the dude could give out the Big Slap Down, for sure.  In the original "Just take a chill pill, dude" lecture of all time, Jesus says:

Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?  Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?  And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: and yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?  Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?  (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

The only think that lacks is one of the apostles saying "Oh SNAP!" at the end of it.

And he could read people pretty damn well too. And if not 'god' in the literal sense, he sure could read the future pretty good.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

The rest of it, Job, the entire story of Exodus, The Beatitudes, its all pretty well written stuff that rings true to other humans.

Quote from: tekla on August 01, 2009, 02:02:24 PM
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.

Kinda makes me think about those who get people all riled up and then ask for donations. It's amazing how many of these so-called religious leaders are rolling in dough (their fruits) and "come to us" as good and decent yet preach intolerance, hatred and fear.  If that's not a wolf in sheep's clothing...

Julie

I don't see what purpose there is in debating whether anything in the Bible scientifically or historically accurate. The book is a collection of writings by different authors that express the entire range of human emotion and experience. If you can't find something in it to spark your interest, I would have to ask, "Why?"

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 01, 2009, 02:31:30 PM
Kinda makes me think about those who get people all riled up and then ask for donations. It's amazing how many of these so-called religious leaders are rolling in dough (their fruits) and "come to us" as good and decent yet preach intolerance, hatred and fear.  If that's not a wolf in sheep's clothing...
Julie

Honey, how many clergy do you know?  Sure there are a few charlatans out there.  Most, however, are anything but.  Most work very long hours helping people, sitting at hospitals, counseling at all hours, and on and on it goes.  And most clergy are just barely scraping by on the salaries they make.  Most of them work more hours and have more education than the general population.  Yet they do what they do, well knowing that it is a financial hardship to do it.  Hatred, intolerance, and fear?  I see enough in this thread that I think it is a bit on the hypocritical side to accuse others of such.

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And most clergy are just barely scraping by on the salaries they make.  Most of them work more hours and have more education than the general population.  Yet they do what they do, well knowing that it is a financial hardship to do it.

I went to Catholic church until I moved out of the house.  Never heard a priest that wasn't asking for money.  Sure, they did a lot more.  But getting donations is part of it.

As for the rest.  Gee, I could substitute Artists for Clergy - and a bunch of other people too.  So what if they don't make as much money as other people, big deal.  There are other things that are more important.  I worked last night.  I could have made more doing a doctor's convention.  I could have made more doing other things.  So, would it have been worth it to spend 8 hours working closely with some guy who looks like Karl Rove, or does this have it's own reward?  Remember, they do pay me something for it, and life is full of other compensations.
Sucks to be me (http://www.flickr.com/photos/westcoastimages/3778602965/#)

Quote from: Kristi on August 01, 2009, 05:47:13 PM
Honey, how many clergy do you know?  Sure there are a few charlatans out there.  Most, however, are anything but.  Most work very long hours helping people, sitting at hospitals, counseling at all hours, and on and on it goes.  And most clergy are just barely scraping by on the salaries they make.  Most of them work more hours and have more education than the general population.  Yet they do what they do, well knowing that it is a financial hardship to do it.  Hatred, intolerance, and fear?  I see enough in this thread that I think it is a bit on the hypocritical side to accuse others of such.

Hate and intolerance in this thread?  You have got to be kidding!

When I was an evangelist, I bought much of this too but as a scientist, I had major problems with Creationism and Intelligent Design.  While I still marvel at the universe and still believe that God created it, I cannot accept the literal Biblical interpretation written in Genesis. That was twenty years ago and at the time I was very active in the church.  I laid hands on the sick, prayed for others, went to a jail to sing carols, helped winterize the poor's homes and was a deacon giving lay sermons and was a choir member.
I also was in the leadership of my home church meeting with the pastor several evenings a week and led a Bible study including being a Sunday school teacher.

However, I began to find that hypocrisy was rampant in the membership. I then had a family crisis ending in divorce that resulted in my being banned from the church.  I tried to come back over and over again.  When I was homeless with my new family, they would not allow us to enter the church and sent us to the Red Cross who gave us a one way plane ticket to leave.  We ended up seeking help from another Church in California only to have our former church contact them causing them to also not help us.  We had a baby at the time. All because I was divorced. I tried to maintain my faith and have prayed for decades.  I tried in vain to pray my transsexuality away to no avail.  In spite of all that I still called myself a Christian.

I have known four ministers of the faith and all have been rigid and intolerant.  Sure they don't make much money but they believe in their view of the scripture without really trying to understand human suffering. They are quick to judgment and encourage the flock to engage in intolerance too. I know, I was in the congregation as sermons against homosexuality were being preached.  The congregation was told they were agents of Satan were attempting to take over the church.  People were nearly in a panic over it.  I admit that I was too and it fueled a decade of homophobia for me which I now see as fear of who I was.  But it was the church that instilled it in me.

If you look at the New Apostolic Reformation or the Seven Mountains Movement, you will see a group of well funded religious leaders bent on taking over the world and forcing all to become Christians.

In fact, the more evangelicals use lies and deceit against our community, the more I am driven from the faith.  It is now to the point that I am ashamed to admit my former faith and do not wish to be associated with the name "Christian"

So who now is intolerant and hateful? 

Maggie

I for one am a believer.
It is so wrong to critize one another because of a belief. Are you not doing the exact same thing that people do to us for not being cut out of the same cookie mold as they are. We would be banished from society if it was left up to the "goodie two shoes". We would most likely be in a sort of lepar coloney. For those of us who wish to beleive in our GOD what is so wrong with that?? Answer me please. We are trying to live a good life, and we are not harming anyone by loving our creator.

Yes there are some very bad pastors,preachers,fathers out there. Just don't judge all of them in the same way. Most are beautiful people that have a desire to help their fellow man, and woman. If you don't want to beleive in God then don't. Just don't try to bring everyone else down to your level of depression if things are not going well. I believe there is a reason for everything good and bad that happens in our lives.

On this site I have met the most wonderful, beautiful, and careing person anyone could ever meet, and she might just surprise you if you got to know her. That is all I can say about her for now, but beleive me she very well may be one of Gods angels.

Please do not take any offence to anything I have said here. I do not judge, as that is left to a higher entity.

Deb

Quote from: Kristi on August 01, 2009, 05:47:13 PM
Honey, how many clergy do you know?  Sure there are a few charlatans out there.  Most, however, are anything but.  Most work very long hours helping people, sitting at hospitals, counseling at all hours, and on and on it goes.  And most clergy are just barely scraping by on the salaries they make.  Most of them work more hours and have more education than the general population.  Yet they do what they do, well knowing that it is a financial hardship to do it.  Hatred, intolerance, and fear?  I see enough in this thread that I think it is a bit on the hypocritical side to accuse others of such.

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"After John's messengers left, Jesus began to talk to the crowd about John: 'What did you go out to deserted marshes to see? The reeds blowing in the wind? No? Then what did you go out to see? A preacher dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear Armani suits and ride in limos are televangelists. So what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, surely, and more than a prophet.'"
(A paraphrase of Luke 7:24-26)

The Bible as a book contains some definite timeless wisdom relevant to this day and some beautiful poetry. But it's a book written by men, perhaps inspired by some higher power but laid down by men nonetheless. It starts off as the history of a nomadic bandit tribe that roamed the deserts and made warfare on its neighbors, with the usual pillaging and "my god is greater than your god" nonsense so endemic to these cultures. Desert tribes tend to be monotheistic while forest tribes tend to be pantheistic, though there is evidence that the Hebrews at one time had a goddess as well in their pantheon who was outsted by the male dominated priesthood and all references to her removed from their holy books.

A lot of the blatant desert mythology and ethnocentricity can be recognized for what it is, but it also contains as I mentioned some insights as to the true nature of how reality works in a spiritual sense. The passage in Matthew 6:25-34 is an excellent example of this and one I have found rings very true. However the Bible must be read in the context of the time in which it was written, a time that spans centuries and many different cultures.

I am resolutely not going to argue with anyone about it as that is about as pointless an endeavor as one can undertake and I have better things to do with my time. If someone feels it is something more than that, then good for them. Personally I am a Goddess worshipping taoist pantheist universalist fairy pagan and my pantheon has room in it for Jesus, Mary, Sidhartha, Daphne, and even queen Titania. Everyone has the right to their own gods or goddesses or whatever. So some people say Jesus is god. So what? The more the merrier in my book. Yeah, Christians are obnoxious sometimes, but again, so what? So are communists, Americans, Jews, Republicans, and yes even us bleeding heart liberals. It's just that there's a lot of overzealous Christians running around thumping everyone over the head with their particular interpretation of bible passages, so what can we expect?

Yes, I have literally physically suffered at the hands of the fundies, but I don't blame Jesus for that. The Bible has some excellent wisdom in it, and if we dismiss all of Christianity out of hand, we're only depriving ourselves of another good source of knowledge and insight.

  I cannot speak for anyone but myself concerning the original question but the reason I get wrapped up in the Bible is because the Lord has come into my life and made himself real to me even though I am unworthy of his grace.
  There is nothing about me worthy of his atonement for my sins. I have nothing to offer him but my body, soul and spirit and to praise him as long as I have the breath of life within me.
  Many do use his word amiss to form doctrines and denominations to judge and hinder others and even others use it to get rich.
  Not all ministers do that however. There are still some decent ones out there that do care for their fellow man and do their alms in secret. That's probably why the wicked and vile are so readily seen.
  A preacher that I know believes that the word of God that points to Jesus Christ as the Lamb of atonement believes he gave his life for all. Straight, gay and trans. They need only believe. After all, the gospel is about faith in Jesus Christ.
  May God bless.

I have yet to see any organization that does not need funds to operate.  Do you really think that all of the money that clergy solicit goes into their pockets?  That may be true with some of those idiotic fundie big name pseuso spiritual leaders.  But the truth is that in most churches the percentage of the budget that goes to salaries is minuscule.  And yes, I have seen the budget of quite a few churches.

Last night I was in a restaurant with my family.  There was a group of cross-dressers there, drunk and noisy.  At one point they started dancing and one of them jumped up on the table, IMHO making a total A$$ of "herself."  The manager came over, gave them the check, and asked them to pay it and leave.  They tried to run out and say that they that they did not have to pay.  Security finally came over and settled it down.  To say that people definitely left with a bad impression of all cross-dressers is the understatement of the year.

Therefore, all transgendered people are obnoxious drunken cheapskates.  If there are any exceptions, they are completely irrelevant.

If this conclusion offends you, if you think that is an unfair leap, if you find yourself wishing those CDs would not give our whole community a bad name, if you think that those who would come to such conclusion are totally ignorant of the full range of the facts, then you will have some idea of how it feels to be on the receiving end of all of this.  I don't expect anyone to care, but at least you have been told.

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Kristi and everyone,

I'd like to call for calm. Knowing Julie like I know her, she did not mean to attack the Bible itself nor the majority of ministers or elders or servants. I believe she is simply frustrated by the onslaught against many of us in the LGBT community by a few out-spoken leaders. They obviously believe that they are correctly interpreting the Bible and saying that what we are as people(differently gender or sexuality orientated)is a wrong and sinful choice. The extreme we see is with the Exodus leaders who try repairative therapy on vulnerable teenagers who are simply caught in the middle of pleasing their parents and Church, and forcing to subliminate or disavow their known orientation. It was the Mormon and Catholic leaders in California, along with FOTF that used the power of the pulpit to help make Prop 8 a victory on the West Coast. So, yes, words by those who don't live our lives do make a difference.

That said, I have known some ministers and priests in my experience who are great social and spiritual servants who are overworked and underpaid. It is unfortunate, however, that as an LGBT person, I have to carefully seek out a church home that is accepting and non-condeming of me. Raised as a Catholic, I cannot in good faith walk back into a church that is so noninformed and intolerant of me as a transperson. To the best of my knowledege, only the UCC Church has made public thier openess for having gays and lesbians join their church. There may be others, but I haven't seen it promoted as such.

To Kristi's point about people judging all trans people by a few drunk idiots- I hope not. Likewise, don't jump to the conclusion that I'm like some foolish gender confused, attention seeking transperson on Jerry Springer.

Most of us lead very normal, boring lives. And gladly so.

Why does anyone get all too wrapped up in anything? Maybe they are searching.

Quote from: Kristi on August 01, 2009, 09:48:43 PM
[...]
If this conclusion offends you, if you think that is an unfair leap, if you find yourself wishing those CDs would not give our whole community a bad name, if you think that those who would come to such conclusion are totally ignorant of the full range of the facts, then you will have some idea of how it feels to be on the receiving end of all of this.  I don't expect anyone to care, but at least you have been told.

Thank you Kristi for making an important point.

The "golden rule" in debating an issue on religion is to stick to the issue itself.  If one disagrees, attack the idea - not the individual with a differing view.  If you do, you've just lost the debate de facto.

Religious beliefs are a *very* personal thing, so it's always an emotive issue.  Even the most coolly rational and levelheaded of us will bridle when our viscerally held beliefs are challenged.

Unless it's a purely academic discussion about the texts themselves, a debate about the bible is *always* secondary to some more fundamental debate, i.e. antipathy for the religion itself, the acts & beliefs of the followers and/or their interpretation of the scriptures, etc..  I can count the number of rational, dispassionate discussions about the bible in and of itself on the fingers of one hand.

An interesting discussion about religion can be had, and there are certainly enough bright people here to do so.  For example, we could discuss the origins of religion, or the philosophical relevance thereof on issues of morality - or even the division of church and state; secularism vs. theocracy.

But always remember the golden debating rule...

...attack the ideas, not the individual.

Thank you Julie2.  I have been wondering how I might enter this thread.  I am starting to get a reputation as anti-Christian.  That is far from the truth.

I do not hate ALL Christians.  I am only upset with those who use the bible as a weapon against those who are not the same.  It was used by the Catholic Church during Inquisition to trying and convicting heretics , during the Salem "Witch Trials", the pro-slavery movement, the Nazi party.  The Klan uses it, Neo-Nazis' use it.   This does not mean that I think that the radical elements of Christianity are comparable to the Nazi party.  But I have studied and even preached the bible, leading many to Christ.  When it is boiled down, there are some really good basic ways to live one's life.  Through love and charity. 

But one thing that most will not understand is that Jesus said;


Basically, Christ said that everything that was stated in the Old Testament is null and void through Him.  So anything that is taught, from the Old Testament, in His name as fact is untrue.  And anything after the Gospels is hearsay, or what others are saying He or God said.  Even the Gospels are only eyewitness or second-hand versions of what Christ said or did.

So what is being "So Wrapped Up In The Bible" really saying?  People use it as a means of justifying their faith.  But faith is by believing in something that can not be proven.  Does electricity exist?  How do you know?  Stick your tongue one a 9 volt battery?  Does that prove the it exist?

The bible is the most misquoted piece of literature that ever existed. 

In Exodus 22:18 it is written "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."  But in the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in today's English usage for this verse. 

The term "Wicca" is has been twisted in so many ways that most think it means wicked.  But it did not exist till 1954 when Gerald Gardner, a retired British civil servant, popularized it.

A true practitioner of the "Wiccan" belief system, understand the rule of Three.  "What even you cast out (i.e. Preform or active a spell ) will come back to you three-fold.   Cast evil and you will get evil back three times as bad.  And a pentagram represents the human form and the five elements. "The One" ( or a supreme spirit ), Earth, Wind, Fire and Water.  Upside down pentagram and the inverted cross are twisted version of the First Church of Satan.  And just as any faith can have it's "twisted" followers.  And only a handful practice the "Black" acts. 

Every practitioner of Wicca will name the Goddess and God, with a name that means something to them.  That personal connection to the gods.  And I know that many will think I am evil, but again it is the personal connection.  For me, only the Goddess is called "Isis", and the God is "Jesus".  Am I heading my bets?  Personally I don't care what you think.  It is the personal connection to my gods.  And "The One", that supreme spirit, is called simply called "God".

If all Christians would follow Christ's teachings then there would be no conflict.


Do you Get So Wrapped Up In The Bible, that you are blinded by the teaching of Christ.  The bible is open to interpretation.  A personal interpretation.  Not what someone else tells you.

Someone once told me that "All jews are condemed to go to hell".

Me: "All jews?"

Them: "Yes, Every one of them that have ever be born"

Me: " Even Jesus?"

Them: "Jesus wasn't a jew!"

Me: " You better go back to the Bible and reread it.  Jesus was Jewish or of Judea."

Them: " No he wasn't !"

Me: "Reread his genealogy"

The person in question was a devote Catholic.

Janet

Why do so many always seem to confuse dogma and faith/religion? More often than not the two are incongruent. It seems to be human nature to try and divide and conquer, to compartmentalize, to affix labels... and I guess politics and religion bring out the worst.

Even the phrase "bible thumper" or "bible belt" is to take a history book and ascribe every bad human traits and behavior to its contents. And why? Because those that would act in a cruel or deceitful manner tend to rile us up.

Seems to me that clergy are really no different than politicians. They need to put a spin on there particular brand of beliefs, and if selling FUD will do that then so be it. But Im not going to get my panties in a twist over the musings of some relgious huckster anymore than I will argue about the democrats vs republicans. Im not saying they dont have any [in]direct affect on our lives. But to [mis]quote a saying that could start its own debate...

"the bible doesnt kill, people kill"

I think you get the idea....

Oh, and insofar as the myriads of debates, misquotes, and wrong translations and the hullubaloo that they spark? You think the bible is bad? You've obviously never seen trekkies argue over the star trek timeline!  :D

Quote from: Kristi on August 01, 2009, 09:48:43 PM
those idiotic fundie big name pseuso spiritual leaders

That's exactly who I am talking about.  I just couldn't find a simple, eloquent way to describe them.  Thank you for doing so!  Now all we need is a good acronym.

When they raise the Bible up and proclaim the intolerance they preach is supported by "this book" throngs flock to support them because of their unquestioning faith in the Bible.  And that's what baffles me.  The vast majority of these people are good, decent, honest human beings yet they don't stop and ask themselves why the "idiotic fundie big name pseudo spiritual leader" is preaching intolerance, encouraging discrimination and spreading fear.  Once that book is presented as "proof" all questions cease.

While we can only live in the present, we can learn from the past. When we look into the past we see people swayed by slick tongued, self appointed leaders to perform sometimes horrific acts.  Why would anyone in today's world allow themselves to be sucked into anything like this?  I just don't get it.

Yes, Kristi, there are countless good and decent clergy out there but you rarely see them in the media.  And that's unfortunate because they could do a lot more good if it was their message being told rather than the idiotic fundie big name pseudo spiritual leaders.  (I just gotta come up with an acronym for that!)  :D

Julie

You think the bible is bad? You've obviously never seen trekkies argue over the star trek timeline!

Yeah, but there are a couple of key differences. One is that trekkies are aware that the timeline was written by humans, and its fiction.  For many people, the Bible has a different deal going on, it's learning religion straight from God, and kid's that a whole different world.

Because in that, I don't care how much you want to believe Star Trek, there is no call to any action, save bugging the Federal Government for more money for NASA. But everything in the Bible is a call to action.  The Bible does not wish, implore or suggest you act in certain ways, it demands it, straight from God's lips to your ears as they say.

Even though a solid rational science-based agnostic, or perhaps because of it, I had my kids read the Bible*, or at least parts of it as per my 'suggestions' - OK I didn't suggest, I forced them to do it.  So we would read, and discuss, and read again (like any good reader would) the parts I felt were the most valid/meaningful/critical.  I felt it was important for three reasons.  One, its the foundation of Western Literature, and if you don't know those words/ideas your going to be profoundly at a loss when it comes to comprehending literature. So when some writer says their character is going through 'the trials of Job' your not going to be able to comprehend that until, or unless you read the Book of Job. I don't think anything ever written addresses suffering and the nature of evil like the Book of Job does. Moreover, its critical to talking about the notion: "Is misfortune always a divine punishment"?  Something I wanted to talk to my kids about.

And I could go on about why I wanted them to read Genesis, Exodus, and why Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy not so much.  I always like Ruth, Ester and Danial, so we did those.  And we did the history ones - because part of the bible is pretty much not about god, but a history of the Israelite people, so Kings and Chronicles. And we would skip around to a few other stories.  And I would put particular stress on Psalms, Ecclesiastics, Proverbs and the Song of Solomon and Lamentations as they are so perfect in the poetics

Only then, when we had finished the Old stuff would we move to the New.  And in that, only the Gospels.  Matthew and John in full, Mark and Luke in parts. (Mark and Luke can't hold a candle to Matthew and John as writers - although I find Luke to be the most credible of the four). 

I never had them read the Acts and Letter, especially Paul.  I hate Paul.  Paul sucks. Paul was the first in a long line of people stretching to the present day who completely and utterly missed the point. (He was also the first 'convert' giving credence to Nichole's theory about converts being such zealots.)

The other thing I did, which several people have though was slightly weird - others understand the true brilliance of it - is that the bibles in my house had the Revelation of John (the Apocalypse in the Catholic bibles I used) cut out of them. I did not want my kids to read that anytime before they had finished college, preferably not until they had finished their PhDs and could arm themselves against the most dangerous and deadly book ever written.

No book ever written has been more dangerous than this one.  Dangerous to others, and dangerous to the reader.  For anyone who thinks that books are just words and are not dangerous, I would offer up the Revelation of John as a pretty good reason why some books ought to be banned, or at least kept under very strict control.

And, its not because it's bad, hell no.  Only the Song of Solomon had a better writer.  In terms of Literature, nothing else compares to the Revelation of John in its vision (and oh boy was he seeing visions), its style, its increadible use of symbolism, and its end message.  I doubt that any work ever done in any language save the Tao Te Ching has as many possible meanings as the Revelation.  It has as many meanings as it has readers.  Which is what makes it dangerous.  Where meaning in the Tao is largely good - contemplating your existence and how you work with the world rather than against it - the meaning of John is the most horrible blood soaked death trip ever. It is profoundly negative.

A bunch of people were having a discussion about the most horrible thing you could ever do to anyone, and they had thought up some pretty horrible stuff, real gruesome, real mean, incredibility complex but I won with my simple idea. If I really hated someone, I mean really hated them I'd give them a massive dose of pure lysergic acid diethylamide-25, and lock them in a room with nothing but the Book of Revelations. They would either kill themselves, or come out and kill everyone else. Either way, they would be out of their mind, insane crazy forever.

David Koresh's Branch Davidians in Waco Texas, that's the Book of Revelations at work. Why did that whole Waco deal go down like it did?  Because they were either going to die, or they were going to go on a killing spree, and I think that's why the government acted as they did (I would have suggested a different tactic, but even then I think the end result would have been the same).  Why?  Because if you read it, and believe it - then nothing matters.  Nothing.  Nothing you do, or ever can do, is going to change the end as it is written, and as its written the end is nothing you want to be around for. But written it is, and that's the way it is.  There is a finality to Revelations, perhaps the final finality that makes all of life pointless and meaningless. Which in turn, makes it very dangerous. 

Anyway, point is, everyone does with the Bible what I did with my kids.  Take what they like and ignore the rest. I'm just being upfront about it.





* I did not "home school" my kids, though I could have as a trained teacher with a doctorate, but instead I let the school handle the standard stuff, and I would work on the more important stuff, like natural science (taught in the Jeffersonian manner) and Literature, taught in the old school way of reading, thinking, talking and reading again. Amazing how much time kids have for you to fill when there is no TV.

QuoteLast night I was in a restaurant with my family.  There was a group of cross-dressers there, drunk and noisy

What kind of restaurants do you go to? I would have immediately removed my family and never returned to that part of town.

What kind of restaurants do you go to? I would have immediately removed my family and never returned to that part of town.  Sounds like my kind of place, worth checking out at any rate, and hey, you didn't have to pay extra for the entertainment like you do at the places I work at.

QuoteSounds like my kind of place

I do not care to be involved in entertainment . One reason not to live in cities.

Oh I lived in rural areas for a long time and they are plenty entertaining, they are just not professionals at it, and it tends to always involve guns or gasoline.

Kristi,

Your analogy is not accurate.  The leadership of the church is urging their followers.

Rev. Wiley Drake
Openly prays to God to kill Obama and quotes Psalm 109 as his reason. He states that Southern Baptists know about this practice of "Imprecatory Prayers" He says Dr. Tiller's death was an answer to his prayer.

Pope Benedict XVI   http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1868390,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1868390,00.html)
"Pope Benedict XVI has said that saving humanity from transsexual behavior is just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction."
"the Vatican has announced its opposition to a United Nations proposal to protect gays from being criminalized and punished by governments for their orientation"

Methodist Judicial Council To Rule On The Sin of ->-bleeped-<-
http://www.transadvocate.com/methodist-judicial-council-to-rule-on-the-sin-of-->-bleeped-<-.htm (http://www.transadvocate.com/methodist-judicial-council-to-rule-on-the-sin-of--%3E-bleeped-%3C-.htm)

Pat Robertson spouting off about Barack Obama's announcement of a "Presidential Memorandum on Federal Benefits and Non-Discrimination" asked "someone's proud to be transgendered?
http://www.transadvocate.com/methodist-judicial-council-to-rule-on-the-sin-of-->-bleeped-<-.htm (http://www.transadvocate.com/methodist-judicial-council-to-rule-on-the-sin-of--%3E-bleeped-%3C-.htm)

"I am aware that Rev Robertson helped start and the American Center for Law and Justice, (http://www.aclj.org/ (http://www.aclj.org/)) the leadership of the Christian Coalition. They have been known to be 'transphobic' and 'honophobic'. The words of Jay Sekulow, 'Chief Justice' of the ACLJ have been pointed out to me again where it was stated regarding the Gardiner decision in Kansas: "this is the first shot across the bow in the war against the scourge known as transsexuality."
http://www.intersexualite.org/PatRobertson.html (http://www.intersexualite.org/PatRobertson.html)

Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell blame gays and lesbians among others for God's allowing 9/11 to happen.
Falwell and Robertson on The 700 Club after 9/11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CAcdta_8I#lq-lq2-hq)

Pat Robertson says God allowed Katrina because of abortion. Quotes Leviticus.
Katrina = God's Wrath (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrehcebmyRg#lq2-hq)

John Hagee says Katrina is because Gays were going to hold a rally in New Orleans.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/23/hagee-katrina-mccain/ (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/23/hagee-katrina-mccain/)

Church Rejects Transsexual's Care
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401408.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401408.html)

"Pope Benedict XVI has said that saving humanity from transsexual behavior is just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction."

However, since the RCC has done pretty much nada on saving the rain forests I'd assume that caring about transsexuals is pretty much #16 on their list of top 10 things to do.

And Maggie, you just highlighted why so many LGBT people don't like the christian leaders.  It's for the same kind of thing that caused so many Jews to hate Germans, they wanted to wipe them out.

These outspoken christian leaders spew out words that are tantamount to encouraging their followers to wipe out LGBT people.  And they use the words written in the Bible to do it.

Now I think most of us would have had a thing or two to say to the unruly, drunken CDs Kristi saw because that's not how we want to be seen.  So maybe if the majority of religious leaders, the ones not seen in the media, would take those idiotic fundie big name pseudo spiritual leaders to task we could all start to get along.

One thing I do know, until you have your inalienable rights taken away from you, until you've been discriminated against for being trans, until you watch the people you love and trust turn their back on you when they find out you're trans, you have no idea how damaging people like the ones highlighted in this thread can be to your life.  Because you will hear the same kind of intolerance from them as you do these "religious leaders".

Here's the acid test: Go to your church leader and tell them you are TG, TS, CD, whatever and watch their reaction.  And also include your sexual orientation.  How they respond will tell you what the real relationship you have with them is.

Julie

I sometimes think of going back to a church because I did find some comfort there and spiritual illumination but not knowing how I will be treated or if I will sit there to hear an anti LBGT sermon makes it impossible.  I might just get up in the middle of the sermon and walk out. Then I worry if someone in the congregation will target me.  Paranoid maybe but for a good reason.

If for a moment we don't realize that there isn't an active push to convert the population to conservative christian doctrine, consider this:

I found a reference to a new movement called Monvee to be unveiled in early 2010.  It will be a standardized database of the participants spiritual growth and beliefs. Apparently it will be announced by Rick Warren and also on Robertson's 700 club.  Targeted evangelism based on the result of the database will be conducted.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/7/26/12839/4303/Diary/Monvee_Profiles_of_the_Mega_churched_ (http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/7/26/12839/4303/Diary/Monvee_Profiles_of_the_Mega_churched_)

The goals are to bring everyone up to a consistent level of belief and also to use the demographics collected for political action.

And for those who think having a "Christian Nation" is a good thing:
http://mythandhope.blogspot.com/2008/04/hitlers-values-and-christian-right.html (http://mythandhope.blogspot.com/2008/04/hitlers-values-and-christian-right.html)

It tears my heart that the Christian church is being like this.  I believe that there are congregations that are as Kristi says but when I see things like I have posted, I wonder how long it will be before they are swept away by the much larger and more motivated movements aligned against us.

Wagner, like his pals Hayford and McGuire is real tin foil hat time. That they are almost insane crazy, (oh, don't believe me?  Try this notion from Wagner that he used to explain his theory: the nation of Japan was collectively demonized, and the Japanese economy undermined, because the Japanese emperor had sexual relations with a territorial demon called the Sun Goddess who, Wagner speculates, may be a succubus. Convinced now?) does not detract from how dangerous they are, not only to themselves and their true believers, but to all of us. 

I like what Hitchens said of Falwell after the latter's demise...
   "It's a shame there's no hell for Falwell to go to..."

The Bible is many things to many people.  It is not contiguous and it can be very confusing. But that comes with the nature of its existence.  It is the culmination of many writers covering some 6 to 7 hundred years.

There are three major faiths based on the Old Testament in the Bible.  They include Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Many people don't know this.

I have studied the Bible, both from its texts, and historical perspective.  I can guarantee you that I'll probably not agree with too many here on what it is and what it means.

But there is one passage that is very meaningful to me in the New Testament and it is so simple to understand.  In an attempt to catch Jesus on a point of doctrine, he was asked to point out the most important commandment. Now, the Jews of the time (oh and let us not forget that Jesus was a Jew) were really big into sacrifices, blood letting, and all sorts of really interesting commandment following.  It would be all too easy for Jesus to say one thing and then have his tempters trump him with something else.

Now let me paraphrase since I don't have my "good book" handy.  "And Jesus answered unto them saying, "the first and greatest commandment is to love thy God with all thy heart, mind, and strength. The second is like unto it, to love thy neighbor as thyself. And from these come forth all other commandments"". Here was something that had never been said, made perfect sense, and would likely make any Pharisee or Sadducee want to put their foot in their mouth.

So, the principal teaching of Jesus is Love.   And let me be the heretic here and throw in charity and grace.   For how can you show true love without them?  Have you ever met someone who will share their last bit of food with you, knowing not where the next will come from?  I have.... and as a total stranger at that.  I was truly humbled.

So, from that one bit of scripture and various interactions with truly loving people, I have based my life.  In my opinion, the rest of the many books in the tome are a matter of academic study. Much can be gained in Jewish history, gospel doctrine, etc. but I'll stick to the love angle. It's far easier to manage.

Unfortunately, the Jews and the Muslims didn't get this tidbit in their versions of the holy scriptures.  BUT, it matters not.  Many who follow the New Testament totally gloss over it.

And that, in very brief terms, is my summation of the library of books that have come to be known as the Bible.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 02, 2009, 07:32:43 PM
But there is one passage that is very meaningful to me in the New Testament and it is so simple to understand.  .......for Jesus to say one thing and then have his tempters trump him with something else.....  "And Jesus answered unto them saying, "the first and greatest commandment is to love thy God with all thy heart, mind, and strength. The second is like unto it, to love thy neighbor as thyself. And from these come forth all other commandments"". Here was something that had never been said, made perfect sense, and would likely make any Pharisee or Sadducee want to put their foot in their mouth.

So, the principal teaching of Jesus is Love.   And let me be the heretic here and throw in charity and grace.   For how can you show true love without them?  Have you ever met someone who will share their last bit of food with you, knowing not where the next will come from?  I have.... and as a total stranger at that.  I was truly humbled.

Cindi

On this we are quite agreed, sweet sister.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

"Love thy neighbor as thyself."  It seems something so simple any human can understand it.  Is that how we shall define who is a Christian and who is not?

As I read and watch the pseudo christian leaders campaign against allowing me to marry the one I love, I wonder what is in their heart.  Would Jesus deny two people who love each other deeply the right to make their commitment one, with the blessing of God?  Not the Jesus I grew up learning about.

So how did these people, people who rally others in a call to action to deny loving couples the same rights they have, who demonize people who have done nothing to cause them harm, who lie to their followers, how can they call themselves followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ?  Are they so misguided they have lost sight of what Christ stood for?  Or are they the false gods Christ warned about?

Julie

Its a huge collection of books written over a rather long period of time by a bunch of different people, who like all people, had different agendas and world views.  Once you start picking and choosing, and everyone does, you can come up with just about anything, justification for or against everything.  The Bible is the religious equivalent of Legos, once you dump the box out on the floor, you can build just about anything you want from it, subject only to your dedication and vision.

Since they keep talking about the "homosexual agenda" (and to them that includes TGs), should we call their agenda the Lego Bible Agenda?  It does have a certain ring to it.

Jules

The older term is 'cafeteria Christianity' where one walks down the line and takes some of this, not that, lots of this, none of that until the tray is full.

Most people who use the Bible for political benefit have never read it. They don't even know what it is, where it came from, nor the historical events that put it together. That doesn't matter to them, for their beliefs are born in prejudice and not in faith.

When we talk of religious zealots, we are usually talking about people in positions of power who lead religious imbeciles around by the proverbial ring in their noses to gin up  hate. Those in power are using the most useful tool available........ fear combined with religious belief.  Not all who are religious are imbeciles.  Nor are they all led around by the nose.  Unfortunately, there are enough instilled with so much hate that those in power are endowed with more of the same.  It's not the Bible that is the culprit here. It is the part of the population who are afraid of us.  They are afraid that if we are given equal rights that their children will be infected somehow with some mysterious disease and join us.  And it has been this same pattern throughout history.  You don't think that we could put soldiers on the battlefield if we couldn't convince them to hate the enemy? If we taught them about the enemy's culture, their family life, their desire to just live like anyone else....... there would be no will to pull the trigger.

Fear and hate breads power. You don't think that these idiots drafting legislation or whining on the news that it's too expensive to provide health care for the unfortunate truly believe what they profess?  Of course not. They are simply abusing their power. "By their acts, ye shall know them." By definition, they are not Christian.

What we need to do is to continue to plod along. In just two decades since I transitioned, I have seen many significant advancements for LGBT rights.  I am very confident that there will be another voter initiative here in California in the next election where we will restore marriage benefits for all.  I think that we will deal with the fear. I think that more people than ever will support us and others who suffer all manner of society's indignations.

The key thing we need to realize is that this element in our society runs on fear and hatred. To return the same is unproductive.  We need  to understand that there are many good faithful people will support us if they see positive action from us. They will see us.  They will interact with us.  They will get to know us. They will then understand that we pose no threat.

Cindi

Quotetheir beliefs are born in prejudice and not in faith

Their actions and thoughts are born of logic, facts and rational thinking.

Quote from: lisagurl on August 03, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Their actions and thoughts are born of logic, facts and rational thinking.

Care to elaborate?

Cindi

QuoteCare to elaborate?

Beliefs and faith are not valid unless they are supported by facts.

Quote from: lisagurl on August 03, 2009, 11:50:07 AM
Beliefs and faith are not valid unless they are supported by facts.

So, is this statement a belief or a fact?  ;)

I tell you Lisa, I get so frustrated by people who do ignore the facts.  I've had Fox News on while I've been browsing the forum this morning.  I can not believe the crap they present as "facts".  What a load of bull they dump on us.  I can't believe they have enough viewers to make money.  I tune in once in a while to make sure that the products advertised there don't make it to my shopping list.

I think that religion and science both are are traditional means to find the truth.  Religion lags science by decades or centuries in many  cases. In others, they don't lag at all..... for example, there seems to be no furor over in-vitro fertilization. You'd think that would be an absolute bombshell.  Nah....  But heaven forbid someone wants to cut off their you know what.

Still, I accept the fact that faith is an important part of many people's lives.  I know that it can be a great source of comfort for them.  I've seen it and I accept it. Who am I to deny them this "fact"?  The sheer numbers of believers is a fact by itself.  I'm not sure of the total implications of the number, but it is something interesting to ponder.

Cindi

QuoteI can not believe the crap they present as "facts".

A fact is not what someone is told or believes. Science is not a fact unless you remove the scientist.  Read " Doubt is our Product" . It takes work to prove that things are facts. It is not a written word or TV or opinion. It takes much much more to get to facts. Many books do not expect you to accept their word. They provide many references to check out and those references provide many more. The world is full of manipulation, until you find the motivation behind any information, it is suspect. Even you own experience is only relative from your point of reference. You need other points of reference to check what you have experienced (think magic).

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Post Merge: August 03, 2009, 01:36:51 PM

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QuoteThe sheer numbers of believers is a fact by itself.

No it is just a number of people that say they believe. You can not believe what people say. There is a large number of non believers also this does not prove anything. As my mom once said " If everyone jumps off the bridge will you also?"

QuoteI think that religion and science both are are traditional means to find the truth

Sorry Cindi, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that one.  First of all, one needs to define what one means by "truth" in less slippery terms.   Is "truth" in this context "a reliable theory supported by observation", as per the scientific method, or something else?

As religion has a whopping great assumption underpinning any inquiry (i.e. the fundamental tenet of the religion itself), it is likely to run into conflict with scientific method sooner or later, as the latter requires observational evidence to support a hypothesis before that hypothesis can be promoted to viable theory status.

Quoterequires observational evidence to support a hypothesis before that hypothesis can be promoted to viable theory status.

It also needs to be able to be duplicated by others that do not have the same motive as the first scientist.

I began to write my position on faith and the Bible but it soon became too long to practically post here. I have said many critical things about the Christian church in this thread but I also still believe and the way I came to believe was because of revelation not study.   If you want to read my conversion experience it is posted in my blog.
http://www.bengco.com/KayBlog/?p=178 (http://www.bengco.com/KayBlog/?p=178)

Maggie

I too have written many articles on this subject in my blog.  One is titled something like  "Cindi's Creed" and then there is one about rational thought in there somewhere. 

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 07, 2009, 12:10:48 AM...and then there is one about rational thought in there somewhere. 

Cindi

When I'm in a discussion with someone who is "wrapped up" in the Bible, I think it's the lack of rational thought that bothers me the most.

Julie