you can pass or are androgynous-looking.
At least that's my belief. Of course it blurs when you come to MtFs, because sometimes it's harder for you girls to pass, even with hormones and everything. But as a general rule, that's what I think. I just feel it's ridiculous to ask people for that when you can't really back it up. And sure, maybe it's not a big deal when it's simply a matter of switching a set of small words, but it's also switching how you view the person and interact with them.
Thoughts on the matter?
agreed.
I think you have the right to ask for correct pronouns of the gender your living fulltime as.
If my opinion counts for anything.
Sarah L.
I waited until all of my documents and name change were official and I had been on T for 3 months. That was about the time I started passing.
I think you can ask at any time, but I do think it's harder for others to comply or remember when the visual doesn't match (ie it's harder for them to change). New people who didn't know you ever as your previous self should be easier.
Jay
I disagree. If you identify as a guy and are trying to present as a guy then ask for male pronouns. Whether you pass or not makes no difference. People should respect you for who you say you are.
I don't ask anyone to change their pronoun useage and certainly don't insist on it, though when I'm full time (IF!) I'm sure I'll be more concious of it.
But having said that, I don't think it's someone else's business to tell me whAt I have the "right" to ask for either.
I think it would be better phrased if it was less "in your face"
QuoteI disagree. If you identify as a guy and are trying to present as a guy then ask for male pronouns. Whether you pass or not makes no difference. People should respect you for who you say you are.
I agree, just because you don't
look a certain way doesn't mean you can't be treated that way. A lot of the guys and girls here haven't yet started to transition, and some may never do so, but that doesn't mean they can't be accorded the pronouns they identify with if they request them. Just because you can't see something about someone doesn't mean it's not there. Just because you can't see that a person has a migraine doesn't mean you should continue treating them as though they're up for head-banging at a heavy metal concert - on the contrary, if they said "I have a migraine, would you mind keeping the noise down and closing the curtains?", you would (I'm assuming) respect their request and do whatever to help them. Same principle, just on a slightly grander scale. :P
I disagree. You can ask whenever you feel ready to. Coming out often comes before going on hormones, and for some people, passing isn't an option without hormones.
Also, even though I passed most of the time before going on T, to my friends who knew I was genetically female, they still saw me as female-looking simply because they knew that I was. I wasn't passing in their eyes anyway, so the whole passing factor is pretty irrelevant.
I'm rather disappointed with some of the statements here. Some of you would not permit me the "right" to ask people to address me in a way I feel is appropriate and respectful. Thanks for the support. ::)
You have the absolute and complete right to ask people to address you however you want, whenever you want. You have the right to be as fickle as you'd like. That's your perogative.
Now, if you want people to comply with your request, it helps to do your best to look the gender, and the earlier in your transition you ask people to switch pronouns, the more likely people will screw up.
But you can ask any damned time you want.
I have to agree with Alyssa, that's exactly my opinion on this issue too.
Re: You don't have the right to ask for pronouns until
Yes, I do. I have no fewer rights than anybody else. No fewer rights than a cisperson to basic respect. A transperson has every right to ask to be called by the right name and pronouns, whether they fit appearance norms for their gender or not. That doesn't mean people will respect that right. But then, passing perfectly and being completely post-op often doesn't guarantee basic respect from others either. How many people post-op people are suddenly treated to the wrong pronouns once people know their status?
I get the argument that it is easier on people to use the correct pronouns when one visually fits them. But we're not here to cater to the sensibilities of cispeople. We don't have to apologize for not meeting their standards. The world doesn't have to cater to us, but then they seldom do anyway.
QuoteI'm rather disappointed with some of the statements here. Some of you would not permit me the "right" to ask people to address me in a way I feel is appropriate and respectful. Thanks for the support.
You have the absolute and complete right to ask people to address you however you want, whenever you want. You have the right to be as fickle as you'd like. That's your perogative.
Now, if you want people to comply with your request, it helps to do your best to look the gender, and the earlier in your transition you ask people to switch pronouns, the more likely people will screw up.
But you can ask any damned time you want.
QuoteI have to agree with Alyssa, that's exactly my opinion on this issue too.
QuoteRe: You don't have the right to ask for pronouns until
Yes, I do. I have no fewer rights than anybody else. No fewer rights than a cisperson to basic respect. A transperson has every right to ask to be called by the right name and pronouns, whether they fit appearance norms for their gender or not. That doesn't mean people will respect that right. But then, passing perfectly and being completely post-op often doesn't guarantee basic respect from others either. How many people post-op people are suddenly treated to the wrong pronouns once people know their status?
I get the argument that it is easier on people to use the correct pronouns when one visually fits them. But we're not here to cater to the sensibilities of cispeople. We don't have to apologize for not meeting their standards. The world doesn't have to cater to us, but then they seldom do anyway.
Absolutely. The moment someone starts posting in the FtM section, for instance, that person is immediately addressed and referred to as "he", regardless of whether he's pre-op, post-op, non-op or whatever. As Alyssa and Nero said, if you request your correct-gendered pronoun from people when you don't look like a "typical" person of that gender, then yes, people may have difficulty complying 100% of the time without occasionally messing up, but that doesn't stop you from having every right to ask it.
One of the greatest issues we face is the ability to just be ourselves in the face of society's sometimes overwhelming and confronting prejudices, and being referred to as she, he, it (I know some people prefer that), ze, whichever pronoun, is just an extension of this right to being yourself.
Aside from having a "right" to it, being referred to as one's proper gender actually helps immensely, too, and can be (
can be, not
is necessarily) very helpful in determining how "right" someone is about their "transness". For instance, most of the time I am comfortable in the thought that yes, I am a transman (still dysphoric, obviously, but...at peace, perhaps, is better), but occasionally I still doubt, "Am I just being silly?", "Is it actually just a very long-lasting and rather delayed 'adolescent phase'?", but then I remember how exciting it was when one of my friends, without prompting, asked if I would prefer male pronouns, and how wonderful it is just to know that he'll use them in the future, and so being referred to as "he" etc. really does help me and my peace of mind with it all.
But, short answer, yes, I believe everyone has the right to be who they are, and be accepted and treated as the person they are, and the correct use of pronouns is just one aspect of that.
I think that you should do what helps you feel most comfortable. But you should ask in a respectful way. After all, you are asking them to respect you. Hopefully, with new acquaintances after your transition, you won't need to say anything. It's a gradual thing. Of course.... there's always the mom, dad, or other family member that will never give you the courtesy no matter how much time passes.
Cindi
Well, I personally am not even mentioning pronouns at this point. That will change when I change. However, I just don't see the point. I don't want to make a lot of discomfort in the "social world" and although I feel like this "she" they are talking about is someone other than me, that won't be forever. They know this, too.
But really, how others address you should matter less than how you address yourself. If that makes sense.
I totally agree with Alyssa et al. I wouldn't refer to any of the FtM as female, that's insulting, and I wouldn't refer to any of the MtF's as male. If a shop as sistant etc refered to me as sir, at the least I would walk away, at the extreme I would slap the silly b***h across her face. If it was a guy I would say very loudly, "You want me to give you a ->-bleeped-<-!! Yuk" (a bit of humour here)
I think the main place pronouns seem to get mixed up is in the Armed forces; seems a lot of drill sargents have the mistaken notion that many of their male recruits are female; as they seem to refer to them as ladies, at least in the movies.
Respect and politness are what makes society work.
Just look around you neighbourhoods were respect and politness have disappeared. You really want to live there?
Cindy
Quote from: Matilda on August 03, 2009, 08:40:12 PM
It's a load of tosh! You can ask anytime you wish. If they don't comply, you cut them out of your life immediately and for good, and voila, problem solved.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi572.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss161%2Fmatilda23%2F061.gif&hash=8f2301193b0dc73bb2e3c64f938f2048ea1a0591)
That's a lot of bargaining chips you've got there. People take time to adjust to things, like "I'm marrying the woman you hate", "I'm pregnant", "I'm dropping out of school", "I'm changing my gender" etc. While we've come very, very far along when we get to the point where we're willing to confront people about pronouns... it's often new to them. "By the way mom I'm a girl and if you don't call me her you can kiss my ass and rot in a nursing home" is not going to get you very far.
Quote from: Adrian on August 04, 2009, 03:46:45 AM
Well, I personally am not even mentioning pronouns at this point. That will change when I change. However, I just don't see the point. I don't want to make a lot of discomfort in the "social world" and although I feel like this "she" they are talking about is someone other than me, that won't be forever. They know this, too.
But really, how others address you should matter less than how you address yourself. If that makes sense.
I answer to both pronouns. Back when I was trying to pass as a boy I'd try to correct people but it just got too old. On the phone I'm almost always ma'am'ed, or I get sir'd and then correctively ma'amed. In person it varies between being sirred, man'd, ma'amed, a blank look of confusion in place of the pronoun, etc.
My presentation is androgyny, I will take either for now. According to the therapist I saw, there's nothing androgynous about me - but I'll believe that when the ma'ams twice outnumber the sirs.
I will admit that one time when I actually went out trying to pass (bra, tank top, purse, etc) and my ex and I went to get our brows done and the stylist kept calling me sir... was very uncomfortable and damaging. I didn't have it in me to start a scene though, it was in the middle of a crowded mall. Bad experience. :'(
Of course, she was very foreign and they charge men more for their brows than women, and she was otherwise nice and complimentary to me, so... meh. It's funny, usually you get charged more for services as a woman.
Thank you for a great question!
I think you have the right to ask any time you feel comfortable with doing so. This is a different matter than demanding, however. If you demand, then you start naming consequences. some never need to do that, and some just do it for spite. This is very personal. But ask any time you feel good about doing so.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
I feel I need more than one word to express my position on this. We, as a trans "community" do (and should) address people by whatever they want, whenever they want.
As for the general public, asking someone to defy "It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck!" is a longshot. And then being upset when people still refer to you as a duck? C'mon! If you want to be seen as duck/goose, then look the part. 'Til then, don't expect it.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on August 04, 2009, 01:35:46 AM
I'm rather disappointed with some of the statements here. Some of you would not permit me the "right" to ask people to address me in a way I feel is appropriate and respectful. Thanks for the support. ::)
You have the absolute and complete right to ask people to address you however you want, whenever you want. You have the right to be as fickle as you'd like. That's your perogative.
Now, if you want people to comply with your request, it helps to do your best to look the gender, and the earlier in your transition you ask people to switch pronouns, the more likely people will screw up.
But you can ask any damned time you want.
Gotta agree here.
You can ask anything you want. You can expect anything you want. But what you get back is what you put in.
I would have felt ridiculous asking anyone to refer to me in the female if I didn't make an effort to present as such. And it would have not surprised me one bit if the response I got back was a laugh.
There are certain expectations to presentation when gender is an issue. A gender queer person once told me "I prefer 'ze' to be used as a pronoun when referring to me." That solves ze's problems.
We still live in a binary society and it's not going to change overnight. While one may present as one gender but ask to be referred to as the other gender, that person has to have realistic expectations based on the knowledge we all have today regarding gender and presentation.
If you wanna be called miss and you're sounding like James Earl Jones, don't expect a lot of cooperation from the masses.
Julie
I never actually asked anyone to use a specific pronoun. Many have been kind enough to use he and I thanked them for it. they have repeated it since.
A funny story tho regarding optometrists office. One lady kept correcting others to call me she even with a male name and presentation. I looked right at the one who originally spoke and who had called me sir, and said, "You had it right the first time." She said Thank you quite loudly, glared at the one correcting her, and went on her way.
Just because you can't see that a person has a migraine doesn't mean you should continue treating them as though they're up for head-banging at a heavy metal concert - on the contrary, if they said "I have a migraine, would you mind keeping the noise down and closing the curtains?", you would (I'm assuming) respect their request and do whatever to help them.
The good lord helps them whats helps themselves. If you have a migraine, its your responsibility to find a place that has the right conditions for you, its not our responsibility to change what we are doing to suit you.
You may make requests of people, you may not make demands. They can choose to go along, or not, at which point its up to you to decide to continue with them or not.
Quote from: Wendy1974 on August 03, 2009, 08:07:43 PM
I disagree. If you identify as a guy and are trying to present as a guy then ask for male pronouns. Whether you pass or not makes no difference. People should respect you for who you say you are.
I agree with this, although I do understand that it would be harder for people to use the correct pronouns if you don't look like your gender.
Quote from: tekla on August 04, 2009, 10:47:50 AMYou may make requests of people, you may not make demands.
You can make all the demands you want. You may not get what you want but you could get a bloody nose. :icon_punch:
Julie
I meant in terms of getting what you want. Even worse than a bloody nose, most people will just laugh hysterically in your face and do the exactly opposite with great vigor and relish when met with demands.
Quote from: Mister on August 04, 2009, 09:34:28 AM
I feel I need more than one word to express my position on this. We, as a trans "community" do (and should) address people by whatever they want, whenever they want.
As for the general public, asking someone to defy "It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck!" is a longshot. And then being upset when people still refer to you as a duck? C'mon! If you want to be seen as duck/goose, then look the part. 'Til then, don't expect it.
That was a better way to put how I feel about it.
And in NO way was I implying that you should call pre-op FtMs a she, or vice versa. That's just completely disrespectful. What I do is try my best to avoid pronouns until the person in question is at least androgynous. I just don't feel quite right about calling someone who looks one gender, the complete opposite. It has nothing to do with whether you support the trans community or not.
And the migraine analogy is quite irrelevant. You can never "see" a migraine, but you can certainly see gender presentation. I'm not disputing what someone's mental gender may be, but until the outside has at least thrown away connection to birth gender, it's a bit ridiculous to switch pronouns. Of course, it's different when you are very close to the person. But as a general thing.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 03, 2009, 07:46:25 PM
I think you have the right to ask for correct pronouns of the gender your living fulltime as.
If my opinion counts for anything.
Sarah L.
I agree it doesn't matter if you are passing or not.
Jay
QuoteI agree it doesn't matter if you are passing or not.
Forgive me as I know what follows isn't quite what you meant but based on what I've seen even within this forum, passing (or not) is a hugely significant issue for so many. Why is that, if it doesn't matter?
Because presumably an appearance congruous with gender identity is important.
Let's not forget that a "man in a dress" demanding to be called "she" is actually projecting a form of gender dysphoria by proxy onto the 3rd party. They're going to look at the incongruity and mentally think "WTF?"
They *don't* have to live with it, they're *not* trapped in the wrong body and so only a tiny minority will understand the significance of complying with the request.
If a trans-person can yearn for congruity, why expect the cisgendered to accept incongruity so readily?
QuoteLet's not forget that a "man in a dress" demanding to be called "she" is actually projecting a form of gender dysphoria by proxy onto the 3rd party. They're going to look at the incongruity and mentally think "WTF?"
That seems an extreme way to put it. Could you clarify?
Certainly if I could tell a person was presenting as a certain gender, I would be more than glad to address them by the pronoun in line with their chosen gender. What I'm saying is, if there are mistakes in the family or out, you really can't blame people for calling you what they are used to, as well as by what they perceive. Yes, perhaps unfair judgments - but that is our world. I think, we may ask to be called whatever we want - whichever names we want, whichever titles. But we can't always expect them to be consistent, especially in a world like ours. I have experience with the matter, so I can easily see an MtF as female, and an FtM as male. Regardless of whether they pass. But our world is simply not as gender-variant as we are.
I agree that if you look like a duck and quack like a duck - expect people to think you're a duck.
Quote from: Nero on August 04, 2009, 02:04:52 PM
That seems an extreme way to put it. Could you clarify?
Sure. If one feels dysphoria due to a mismatch between mental gender identity and physical appearance, then by asking a 3rd party observer to use the pronouns aligned with ones mental gender identity, you're really asking them adopt the same mental gender representation (of the trans-person) as the trans-person. However, they are still seeing the same mismatch with physical appearance which, I propose, is effectively "dysphoria by proxy".
Quote from: finewine on August 04, 2009, 02:17:08 PM
Sure. If one feels dysphoria due to a mismatch between mental gender identity and physical appearance, then by asking a 3rd party observer to use the pronouns aligned with ones mental gender identity, you're really asking them adopt the same mental gender representation (of the trans-person) as the trans-person. However, they are still seeing the same mismatch with physical appearance which, I propose, is effectively "dysphoria by proxy".
Oh, I certainly agree. Interesting way to put it.
Quote from: Mister on August 04, 2009, 09:34:28 AM
I feel I need more than one word to express my position on this. We, as a trans "community" do (and should) address people by whatever they want, whenever they want.
As for the general public, asking someone to defy "It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it must be a duck!" is a longshot. And then being upset when people still refer to you as a duck? C'mon! If you want to be seen as duck/goose, then look the part. 'Til then, don't expect it.
I agree with this. I still think that anyone has the right to ask for their preferred pronouns at any time, but they shouldn't expect people to get it right all the time. That goes for anyone, but especially more for people who don't pass.
I might've taken the original question a different way than it was intended
What I think would be a god middle ground, albeit hard to remember to do, is to avoid the situation where possible.
for instance, at the checkout, you don't need to call me ma'am - just don't call me sir. Find another way to phrase your platitude.
It's more difficult to avoid pronouns, sure but some effort to work around a few of them would seem an obvious solution.
Without, of course, being rude about it.
The blogs offer no solid answer. So what's it to you? Would you rather not have a job, or have me call you by the wrong word? Your choice, but the cardboard mattress are free.
We seem to be forgetting the original question - it's not a matter as to whether you can expect people to comply with your requests, but that you have the right to request X or Y in the first place. A teacher has the right to ask their students to do their homework. Whether said students do or not is another matter entirely, but the right itself nevertheless is there. So while I agree that beating people about the ears demanding X or Y will get you nowhere, and that even asking politely may not result in the response you're looking for, you still have the right to ask it.
Honestly the idea of a 'should' or 'should not' in this area is misguided. Consider a genetic woman who is born with blatantly masculine features. Does she not have the right to demand that she be addressed as 'she' even if first impressions would lead someone to believe that this person was male?
I don't think any of us would say that she should not have that right, and yet this isn't any different from the situation of a trans-person, if we're going by the 'born in the wrong body' way of thinking. So for anyone who would say a trans-person who doesn't pass shouldn't have the right to request to be addressed as the gender they choose is clear case of bias.
The resolution is that thinking in terms of 'should' or 'should not' is counterproductive. People will or won't ask to be addressed in the gender of their choice, and people may or may not use the requested pronouns. Do whatever you want.
Quote from: William on August 04, 2009, 10:19:38 PM
We seem to be forgetting the original question - it's not a matter as to whether you can expect people to comply with your requests, but that you have the right to request X or Y in the first place. A teacher has the right to ask their students to do their homework. Whether said students do or not is another matter entirely, but the right itself nevertheless is there. So while I agree that beating people about the ears demanding X or Y will get you nowhere, and that even asking politely may not result in the response you're looking for, you still have the right to ask it.
While that was the original question, I think it has simply been discussed and mostly agreed upon that we have the
right to request certain pronouns, but simply can't expect people to follow through. There are more variables - such as whether we ought to give them time to adapt to it, whether asking for such a thing causes dysphoria, etcetera. But it's generally been established that despite our right to ask for these things, they may not be given.
Quote from: Nichole on August 04, 2009, 12:23:53 PM
O, o, o!!
There does seems to be a bit of real-life in that perspective. :)
Actually, not to pick on you specifically, Nichole, but I've seen absolutely no "real-life perspective" whatsoever in this thread, just a lot of generalizations and philosophizing.
But I'm not just complaining; I'll do something about it.
Real Life Perspective #1:
I have a close friend who is trans, let's call her Amy, who transitioned a few years before I'd met her. I'm not sure when she transitioned, but people who knew her in high school describe how she used to be "that guy who insisted people call her 'she'" (or something to that effect. Given her family situation and her age, Amy couldn't do a thing towards transition --
except ask people to address her in a way that didn't make her want to kill herself. That's real life.
Real Life Perspective #2:
Me: I am slow to make decisions and skeptical of where my emotions would lead me -- I don't trust them not to change. I needed to know that I could live as a woman before I made any irrevocable decisions in my transition. That involved, for a time, living a small portion of my life presenting myself as a woman, only with some of my friends, and making it clear that it was my desire that I ber referred to as "she." I didn't pass in the slightest, though it's slowly getting better. I was only spending a few hours a week in "girl-mode." But that's what
I needed in order to make this difficult and scary decision.
--
Tekla -- there are some things worth more than a job. Like friends. Yes, even in crude monetary terms. I know that if I lose everything of tangible value -- my posessions, my savings, my job -- I still have lots of friends who will help me get back on my feet. That's easily worth more than a year's salary in any job I can imagine getting. And, as a bonus, it makes life worth living.
Finewine -- At this point in my transition, I frankly don't care if my somewhat "incongruent" appearence makes some cisgendered people uncomfortable. I have way more to worry about than whether my appearance currently seems "congruent" to you. I'm just trying to get by from day to day.
Furthermore, I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who complain about discomfort cause by someone living their life with all the dignity they can muster, but contrary to social convention, whether that be someone struggling with schizophrenia, a woman in a "man's job," a gay cousin with a partner at family gatherings, someone who is fat or otherwise judged to be unattractive, or, yes, an unpassable trans person. It's really quite simple: your responsibility as a member of human society is to treat other humans with the dignity and respect they deserve simply for being human.
How should you treat a horribly unattractive and unpassable trans person? Like a
person. Everything else flows from that. I don't see how ignorance is an acceptable excuse for failure to treat anyone with the basic respect due any human being.
In the real world, friends and jobs are often the same deal. I only hire my friends. My friends always call me for work first. Sooner or later, if you're not carrying your share of the weight, people get tired and put the weight down.
In real life, what you know only gets you in the door, who you know, get's you the job.
Sometimes I get the feeling that you think every thread about every issue is about aquiring money. ;) Okay, perhaps an exaggeration, but, fine, if you want to put it that way --
Once you get that job, would you say that hating every moment you have to present yourself there as the gender you were raised, being unable to sleep at night, having panic attacks, and even trying to kill yourself are good ways of keeping the job? Some of us take our chances with making a few small linguistic requests.
I'm not transitioning because my financial advisor suggested it would be a good way to fatten up my bank account. Neither am I looking for a free ride.
QuoteFinewine -- At this point in my transition, I frankly don't care if my somewhat "incongruent" appearence makes some cisgendered people uncomfortable. I have way more to worry about than whether my appearance currently seems "congruent" to you. I'm just trying to get by from day to day.
Well boo-hoo. You and everyone else is trying to get by with whatever their respective challenges are. Of course I have every sympathy for the particular issues dysphoria raises but don't go thinking that somehow pops your issues up the priority stack next to folks without dysphoria automatically.
Further, at no point was I claiming a complaint by cisgendered folks about the discomfort, I'm simply saying folks can bleat all they want about rights but they'd better get some realistic expectations...it's hard to look at a horse and call it a duck. It's hard to look at what appears to be one gender and call the person by another.
You crave real life perspective? Well here's the kicker - your dysphoria is YOUR problem. That doesn't mean you don't have the right to be treated with respect but there's a world of difference between being *disrespected* by deliberate discrimination and bigotry versus projecting your dysphoria onto others and demanding that they cope.
The latter is not "them showing respect", it's you being a parochial ass.
"Oh here, have some of my problems - don't disrespect me by not complying!" Shyeah. Good luck with that. :)
Its not the money, its the 40-60 hours a week that if you are hating what you do, makes it mighty hard to color the rest of the time around that in any positive way. When you get down to it, you wind up spending more time with those people than with any other group in your life, including your family, so its very important to get that right.
Ah, on re-reading my post I see it can be construed somewhat harshly and personally directed. I apologise for that and meant no direct personal comment to Alyssa - my reaction is intended at the sentiment, not the person. Sorry!
Not that my opinion counts as much, but at this very early stage - only just coming to myself and out to no one else other than my therapist - I don't feel I have any say in how I'm addressed. In fact in many situations I may not even be sure how I would address myself. In here, I would hope to be addressed as her/she if for no other reason than to reinforce what I am feeling inside. Of course given my avatar, which is how the world in general perceives me, I would not always expect one or the other.
I, for one, would not go out in the world and expect to be referred to as a woman (whether I'm presenting or not) at this point in time. I have, in the past while living as a man and not even contemplating being a woman, on a few occasions been referred to as m'am and while this rather took me by surprise, I was not offended. To the contrary, I felt a little twinge of joy.
I'm not saying that I either have or don't have the 'right' to ask for pronouns as this phase, but I would hope that as I begin coming out to friends whom I trust and am given the opportunity to explain myself and my position, I would hope they show me the respect of supporting me. I couldn't demand that of them and could not demand it of anyone else. I fully understand that most of the population is uneducated as to gender variations and issues that lie outside of their own, individual norm, so asking them to accept without understanding is a very tall order.
I may change my feelings at a later point when I get to the point where I will be actively transitioning and the personal 'need' to pass and be accepted really becomes important. For right now, I feel that I have been accepted as Deanna in here by everyone - irregardless of my avatar - and for now, that makes me very happy indeed, it gives a sense that I finally for the first time in my life belong in some societal group. And for the record, since I have come out to myself nearly two weeks ago and found the support and acceptance of my new family here at Susan's, I have not once contemplated blowing my brains out, not once considered driving my car as fast as its little plastic Saturn engine could propel it into a large very not plastic bridge abutment.
I thank you all for your openness, your compassion, your occasional bickering ;), your experiences, and for being who you are. I am just simply one small insignificant person in a sea of 6.5 billion people whom I can't change. I can only change myself (a tiny little bit at a time).
Hugs all around :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:
Deanna
Finewine and Nikki ;),
I guess I'm still not clear on this projected dysphoria thing you two are talking about. I don't want to belittle any effect on cisfolks, but I guess I don't understand how addressing someone by the pronouns they ask for (if asked respectfully and politely) confers such a hardship. At least not to the point of dysphoria.
It's not what one would expect to see and it may not fit comfortable visual norms, but then so do a lot of things. It's distressing to try not to look away when speaking to a horribly disfigured person or not to cringe at a mentally handicapped person drooling. These are gut reactions to things out of the norm that one doesn't really expect or want to deal with on a bus ride for example. But we recognize that it's our own discomfort. Are they causing us dysphoria of some sort?
Now obviously, we can't guess what pronouns a stranger goes by, but if someone asks to be addressed a certain way, what is the dysphoria other than just not wanting to bothered trying?
Again, I don't want to dismiss the effects on cispeople, but I'd like to understand where you're coming from.
Yeah, I agree. To reiterate all of the other opinions.
You can ask for whatever you want. Doesn't mean you're going to get it. I don't look like a man. I look like a woman, sound like a woman, and I'm not really sure if I act very much like a woman but there are other women who act in a masculine manner so it doesn't mean much to the general public. I will eventually be called a "he." That'll be great, and will likely make me rather proud.
On the other hand, being known to people as "that chick who thinks she's a guy" is rather offensive and I won't be able to tell when people really accept me as who I am. Just because they comply and call you whatever you want, doesn't mean they still don't see you as your birth gender and in the end, isn't that what matters to us all? Not to be told what we want to hear as so many people do but to really be accepted as who we think we are?
So I really don't think you should demand it if you're not even remotely close to passing.
SilverFang
Quote from: Nero on August 05, 2009, 02:46:36 PM
[...]
It's not what one would expect to see and it may not fit comfortable visual norms, but then so do a lot of things. It's distressing to try not to look away when speaking to a horribly disfigured person or not to cringe at a mentally handicapped person drooling.
Indeed. Should the other party be required to hold your gaze? Or should you accept that although your condition isn't your fault, it isn't theirs either - and so not take offense at a natural and (usually) barely conscious reaction?
Nobody makes a deliberated "I won't look at this person!" decision, it's almost a visceral reflex which is why, as you said, you almost have to force yourself not to do it.
If you happen to be musical, you may notice how discordance, while not *physically* uncomfortable, causes a definite sensory tension that just doesn't "feel" right...it's almost a palpable relief when it stops (or falls into tune). Similarly, when presented with a gender/appearance incongruity, there's a corresponding sensory dissonance.
(It may be precisely this that "drag queen" entertainment leverages, in a variation of the way that laughter is theorized to be a "release" of anticipation or tension from the unexpected or uncomfortable...but that's a digression).
If someone who is clearly not physically
x demands to be treated or addressed as
x, there will be a cognitive dissonance in the other party because there's a mismatch between sensory input and previously learned (and oft reinforced) norms. As our stereotypical sci-fi robots might say... "does not compute!"
It's perfectly natural for a cisgendered 3rd party to use pronouns that are aligned with what they perceive, which is going to be the physical appearance. A trans-person can certainly request the use of pronouns appropriate to their mental gender identity - but most cis folks will have to consciously concentrate to use the right pronoun, in exactly the same way as one has to "force" yourself not to look away (or, ironically, excessively stare) at a disfigurement.
Honestly, I am so grateful for the gender icons because on several occasions I have had to consciously make an effort to double-check I use the right pronoun because some individual's features and presentation don't align in their avatar. And that's me, here, learning about this community...and I still have to nudge myself to get it right.
Your average cis in the street, as unaware as I was before I joined here, has got almost no chance of avoiding this very sensitive faux pas.
And that's the rub...because while we've been writing about "requests" to use the "correct" pronoun, I'm pretty sure that these requests are often more of a prickly demand (based on a pretty consistent tone in some quarters during my tenure here).
Now - I understand why...but only because I'm here. I also understand that a cis person is never going to experience the acute dysphoria a trans-person can. Nevertheless, by asking a cis-person to use pronouns in contrary to appearance, one is really asking them to maintain a mental gender representation of oneself that is incongruous ... and that's simply why I described it as "dysphoria by proxy".
Thanks for explaining you two. Think I get it now. I don't see any help for it though. Some people will never able to look their gender. And so what's left for them if they don't try to get people to respect it?
It's the core of why this condition is so painful.
QuoteIt's the core of why this condition is so painful.
Yes, I think that's exactly the point - it *is* so painful.
When people stare or comment on my daugher's odd looking, cloudy eyes, I tell her "Be careful you don't be offended by natural curiosity...but if anyone gives you ->-bleeped-<-, punch 'em in the mouth!" (metaphorically, that is).
Quote from: finewine on August 05, 2009, 11:03:34 AM
Ah, on re-reading my post I see it can be construed somewhat harshly and personally directed. I apologise for that and meant no direct personal comment to Alyssa - my reaction is intended at the sentiment, not the person. Sorry!
Frankly, I misread this and thought you were talking about my own post in response to yours; it could equally well apply. So if it sounded as though I was directing my post at you specifically -- I meant the general, rhetorical "you." You have my apologies if I was unclear. :)
--
As far as the topic at hand, I understand that cognitive dissonance isn't the most awesome feeling in the world -- and I've even experienced it on one or two occasions. ;) I disagree with your comparison with to the dissonance that comes with gender dysphoria, but that's really not important.
In real life, when someone asks to be addressed a certain way, it's usually not a fickle and prickly demand, as your previous post seems to suggest. I wouldn't call it a demand at all, but a fairly benign request. You are right that it is a way to transfer some of the burden of your dysphoria onto others. But that weight is much more easily and often gladly borne by others, as is often the case with difficult psychic burdens one may carry. My example was about someone who was obviously in a lot of pain asking her friends to do one thing to help ease that pain. Obviously it was not an onerous burden: she has more friends, many from that time, than almost anyone else I know. You know the type: She's "that girl" with 1000 friends on her Facebook account, all of whom are actually friends in real life, who see her as one friend they can really count on. So where's the harm?
That's why I disagreed with Nichole when she said there was any "real-life perspective" in this discussion. Most of the time, the reaction when I have come out to people has been, "That's great that you are dealing with this, and no problem to me whatsoever, and tell me what I can do to help -- but I really hope you don't have any trouble with so-and-so." Well, when I come out to "so-and-so," I get exactly the same reaction. And that's the key point:
People tend to be far more concerned about the issue of trans acceptance in the abstract than in actual fact.
One other thing:
Quote from: Nichole on August 05, 2009, 10:51:54 AMYou asked friends, even then only a few, to be in on "your secret." Why just a few and which friends did you choose to ask?
Well, since you asked, when I told them it was no longer a secret. I told enough that I knew that even if I wanted it to be a secret (which I didn't, which is why I told them), I figured someone would probably spill the beans. And I made no request to keep the information confidential. I told only a few of my friends at first because I never see all of my friends at once.
I didn't tell certain school friends because I have a more academic relationship with them, and while I didn't care if they knew, it didn't feel appropriate to "dump my personal problems" on them; similarly for some other groups of people in my life.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on August 05, 2009, 09:40:07 PM
Most of the time, the reaction when I have come out to people has been, "That's great that you are dealing with this, and no problem to me whatsoever, and tell me what I can do to help -- but I really hope you don't have any trouble with so-and-so." Well, when I come out to "so-and-so," I get exactly the same reaction. And that's the key point:
People tend to be far more concerned about the issue of trans acceptance in the abstract than in actual fact.
I realize this thread has been dormant for a while, but your post, Alyssa, brings up a topic I was speaking to a friend about today - people's concern that others are accepting.
I met a woman friend for dinner this week that I hadn't seen since November. She didn't know about my transition to Kate until a few days before the dinner. She was very accepting, but said she had only one question: How accepting has everyone been?
A few months ago I had been warned by several friends that everyone in the church would be accepting except so-and-so, who had wintered in Arizona and missed my coming-out. When he showed up at church, one of his first questions was: How accepting has everyone been? (Said in a manner that made me think he was going to beat up any who weren't accepting :D – he's a big man.)
So far – and I know my experience is unusual and that I am incredibly lucky – everyone I've met has been accepting. Some have trouble with it, accepting it in principle but having trouble dealing with it in fact. I always have to remind myself to give them time - I've been thinking about this most of my life, while they've only had a very little time to think about it.
- Kate
Kate, that is a wonderful story, and a beautiful attitude to have. We do forget that sometimes we need to give people a little bit of time to come to terms for something which, for them is just out of their paradigm.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Kate, I completely agree with Kristi. That point was echoed to me today as I met with a very dear friend of mine, the first person I have come out to (after my therapist). I had been kind of reluctant to talk to her since last week when I made plans to meet with her today. I was very nervous, had no idea what I was going to say or how to say it. I had even been questioning myself as to why I felt she was the first person who should know.
Well, I met her today and as our conversation went on she let me know why she was in town (she now lives in Chicago, though still does business here). She let me know that she was here for her cousins funeral. I felt so bad that she took time away from family and mourning just to talk to me, but so honored that she felt I was important enough. Well, I found the words that I needed to say and while I knew she would be very accepting - which she was - she also shared with me so much of her heart. It didn't take long for me to realize exactly why I had been led to share with her first. She was also very moved to find out that I trusted her above anyone else to share this news.
She reminded me of how important it will be to give family and friends the time and the space they need to process this huge, incomprehensible news. As you mentioned Kate, I've been dealing with this my whole life, even if I didn't know what it was or what to call it or even that I wasn't the only one, for family and friends this is not only new to them, but they will likely not have any understanding of what GID is or what it means to those who have it. A little love and education and time goes a long way.
Thank you again Kate and Kristi and everyone else, you all mean so much to me. :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_hug:
Deanna :icon_dance:
You gotta fight! For your right! To prooooooooooo-nouns! :laugh:
I think how much discomfort you put on cispeople by asking for correct pronouns is dependant on how and why you ask.
If I'm meeting with a bunch of people that don't know my "past", and taking along someone who does, you betcha I'll say something before we get there.
Something along the lines of "If you don't mind, these people don't know of my past and I'd rather they didn't. I'd really appreciate it if you could refrain from using female terms or pronouns in front of them. If you're uncomfotable with male pronouns, my name, a pointed finger or they is just fine".
I've always had people comply with that. I'm not shoving a demand for male pronouns down their throat. I'm not asking them to say anything that's going to spark that mental discord.
I take a similar approach with people who keep refering to me in a female manner. I ask nicely. I tell them that although I understand they're just being nice, those terms do make me very uncomfortable.
There seems to be a hint of "Who's comfort matters most?" happening in this thread. I think it's got more to do with mutual respect needing to remain mutual.
I don't demand male pronouns. People will adapt on their own given time. I don't think anyone will female term me when I'm sporting a beard - it'll cause that mental discord they're all trying to avoid.
Quote from: Teknoir on August 08, 2009, 08:24:23 AM
I don't demand male pronouns. People will adapt on their own given time. I don't think anyone will female term me when I'm sporting a beard - it'll cause that mental discord they're all trying to avoid.
They will adapt -- but when? is the question.
I'm sporting a pretty good beard at this point, and even had to trim it with beard trimmers this weekend. At work last night and this morning, no less than 4 employees said she, and only one self-corrected. I've stopped correcting them. At this point, people who didn't know me call me HE and the ones who say she (primarily out of earshot of the clients) are the ones who are going to get the raised eyebrow, not me.
I've learned if someone says SHE in mixed company, or my kids yell MOM! in a store, I just use a 5-10 second delay before responding. If I'm getting a raised eyebrow in a store I might say, I'm not sure where Mom went, what do you need? ;D
Jay