You don't have the right to ask for pronouns until

[finewine]

Finewine -- At this point in my transition, I frankly don't care if my somewhat "incongruent" appearence makes some cisgendered people uncomfortable. I have way more to worry about than whether my appearance currently seems "congruent" to you. I'm just trying to get by from day to day.

Well boo-hoo.  You and everyone else is trying to get by with whatever their respective challenges are.  Of course I have every sympathy for the particular issues dysphoria raises but don't go thinking that somehow pops your issues up the priority stack next to folks without dysphoria automatically.

Further, at no point was I claiming a complaint by cisgendered folks about the discomfort, I'm simply saying folks can bleat all they want about rights but they'd better get some realistic expectations...it's hard to look at a horse and call it a duck.  It's hard to look at what appears to be one gender and call the person by another.

You crave real life perspective?  Well here's the kicker - your dysphoria is YOUR problem.  That doesn't mean you don't have the right to be treated with respect but there's a world of difference between being *disrespected* by deliberate discrimination and bigotry versus projecting your dysphoria onto others and demanding that they cope.

The latter is not "them showing respect", it's you being a parochial ass.

"Oh here, have some of my problems - don't disrespect me by not complying!"  Shyeah.  Good luck with that.

[tekla]

Its not the money, its the 40-60 hours a week that if you are hating what you do, makes it mighty hard to color the rest of the time around that in any positive way.  When you get down to it, you wind up spending more time with those people than with any other group in your life, including your family, so its very important to get that right.

[finewine]

Ah, on re-reading my post I see it can be construed somewhat harshly and personally directed.  I apologise for that and meant no direct personal comment to Alyssa - my reaction is intended at the sentiment, not the person.  Sorry!

[Deanna_Renee]

Not that my opinion counts as much, but at this very early stage - only just coming to myself and out to no one else other than my therapist - I don't feel I have any say in how I'm addressed. In fact in many situations I may not even be sure how I would address myself. In here, I would hope to be addressed as her/she if for no other reason than to reinforce what I am feeling inside. Of course given my avatar, which is how the world in general perceives me, I would not always expect one or the other.

I, for one, would not go out in the world and expect to be referred to as a woman (whether I'm presenting or not) at this point in time. I have, in the past while living as a man and not even contemplating being a woman, on a few occasions been referred to as m'am and while this rather took me by surprise, I was not offended. To the contrary, I felt a little twinge of joy.

I'm not saying that I either have or don't have the 'right' to ask for pronouns as this phase, but I would hope that as I begin coming out to friends whom I trust and am given the opportunity to explain myself and my position, I would hope they show me the respect of supporting me. I couldn't demand that of them and could not demand it of anyone else. I fully understand that most of the population is uneducated as to gender variations and issues that lie outside of their own, individual norm, so asking them to accept without understanding is a very tall order.

I may change my feelings at a later point when I get to the point where I will be actively transitioning and the personal 'need' to pass and be accepted really becomes important. For right now, I feel that I have been accepted as Deanna in here by everyone - irregardless of my avatar - and for now, that makes me very happy indeed, it gives a sense that I finally for the first time in my life belong in some societal group. And for the record, since I have come out to myself nearly two weeks ago and found the support and acceptance of my new family here at Susan's, I have not once contemplated blowing my brains out, not once considered driving my car as fast as its little plastic Saturn engine could propel it into a large very not plastic bridge abutment.

I thank you all for your openness, your compassion, your occasional bickering  , your experiences, and for being who you are. I am just simply one small insignificant person in a sea of 6.5 billion people whom I can't change. I can only change myself (a tiny little bit at a time).

Hugs all around 

Deanna

[Nero]

Finewine and Nikki  ,

I guess I'm still not clear on this projected dysphoria thing you two are talking about. I don't want to belittle any effect on cisfolks, but I guess I don't understand how addressing someone by the pronouns they ask for (if asked respectfully and politely) confers such a hardship. At least not to the point of dysphoria.

It's not what one would expect to see and it may not fit comfortable visual norms, but then so do a lot of things. It's distressing to try not to look away when speaking to a horribly disfigured person or not to cringe at a mentally handicapped person drooling. These are gut reactions to things out of the norm that one doesn't really expect or want to deal with on a bus ride for example. But we recognize that it's our own discomfort. Are they causing us dysphoria of some sort?
Now obviously, we can't guess what pronouns a stranger goes by, but if someone asks to be addressed a certain way, what is the dysphoria other than just not wanting to bothered trying?
Again, I don't want to dismiss the effects on cispeople, but I'd like to understand where you're coming from.

[Silver]

Yeah, I agree. To reiterate all of the other opinions.

You can ask for whatever you want. Doesn't mean you're going to get it. I don't look like a man. I look like a woman, sound like a woman, and I'm not really sure if I act very much like a woman but there are other women who act in a masculine manner so it doesn't mean much to the general public. I will eventually be called a "he." That'll be great, and will likely make me rather proud.

On the other hand, being known to people as "that chick who thinks she's a guy" is rather offensive and I won't be able to tell when people really accept me as who I am. Just because they comply and call you whatever you want, doesn't mean they still don't see you as your birth gender and in the end, isn't that what matters to us all? Not to be told what we want to hear as so many people do but to really be accepted as who we think we are?

So I really don't think you should demand it if you're not even remotely close to passing.

SilverFang

[finewine]

[...]
It's not what one would expect to see and it may not fit comfortable visual norms, but then so do a lot of things. It's distressing to try not to look away when speaking to a horribly disfigured person or not to cringe at a mentally handicapped person drooling.

Indeed.  Should the other party be required to hold your gaze? Or should you accept that although your condition isn't your fault, it isn't theirs either - and so not take offense at a natural and (usually) barely conscious reaction?

Nobody makes a deliberated "I won't look at this person!" decision, it's almost a visceral reflex which is why, as you said, you almost have to force yourself not to do it.

If you happen to be musical, you may notice how discordance, while not *physically* uncomfortable, causes a definite sensory tension that just doesn't "feel" right...it's almost a palpable relief when it stops (or falls into tune).  Similarly, when presented with a gender/appearance incongruity, there's a corresponding sensory dissonance.

(It may be precisely this that "drag queen" entertainment leverages, in a variation of the way that laughter is theorized to be a "release" of anticipation or tension from the unexpected or uncomfortable...but that's a digression).

If someone who is clearly not physically x demands to be treated or addressed as x, there will be a cognitive dissonance in the other party because there's a mismatch between sensory input and previously learned (and oft reinforced) norms.   As our stereotypical sci-fi robots might say... "does not compute!"

It's perfectly natural for a cisgendered 3rd party to use pronouns that are aligned with what they perceive, which is going to be the physical appearance.  A trans-person can certainly request the use of pronouns appropriate to their mental gender identity - but most cis folks will have to consciously concentrate to use the right pronoun, in exactly the same way as one has to "force" yourself not to look away (or, ironically, excessively stare) at a disfigurement.

Honestly, I am so grateful for the gender icons because on several occasions I have had to consciously make an effort to double-check I use the right pronoun because some individual's features and presentation don't align in their avatar.  And that's me, here, learning about this community...and I still have to nudge myself to get it right.

Your average cis in the street, as unaware as I was before I joined here, has got almost no chance of avoiding this very sensitive faux pas.

And that's the rub...because while we've been writing about "requests" to use the "correct" pronoun, I'm pretty sure that these requests are often more of a prickly demand (based on a pretty consistent tone in some quarters during my tenure here).

Now - I understand why...but only because I'm here.  I also understand that a cis person is never going to experience the acute dysphoria a trans-person can.  Nevertheless, by asking a cis-person to use pronouns in contrary to appearance, one is really asking them to maintain a mental gender representation of oneself that is incongruous ... and that's simply why I described it as "dysphoria by proxy".

[Nero]

Thanks for explaining you two. Think I get it now. I don't see any help for it though. Some people will never able to look their gender. And so what's left for them if they don't try to get people to respect it?
It's the core of why this condition is so painful.

[finewine]

It's the core of why this condition is so painful.

Yes, I think that's exactly the point - it *is* so painful.

When people stare or comment on my daugher's odd looking, cloudy eyes, I tell her "Be careful you don't be offended by natural curiosity...but if anyone gives you ->-bleeped-<-, punch 'em in the mouth!" (metaphorically, that is).

[Alyssa M.]

Ah, on re-reading my post I see it can be construed somewhat harshly and personally directed.  I apologise for that and meant no direct personal comment to Alyssa - my reaction is intended at the sentiment, not the person.  Sorry!

Frankly, I misread this and thought you were talking about my own post in response to yours; it could equally well apply. So if it sounded as though I was directing my post at you specifically -- I meant the general, rhetorical "you." You have my apologies if I was unclear.

--

As far as the topic at hand, I understand that cognitive dissonance isn't the most awesome feeling in the world -- and I've even experienced it on one or two occasions. I disagree with your comparison with to the dissonance that comes with gender dysphoria, but that's really not important.

In real life, when someone asks to be addressed a certain way, it's usually not a fickle and prickly demand, as your previous post seems to suggest. I wouldn't call it a demand at all, but a fairly benign request. You are right that it is a way to transfer some of the burden of your dysphoria onto others. But that weight is much more easily and often gladly borne by others, as is often the case with difficult psychic burdens one may carry. My example was about someone who was obviously in a lot of pain asking her friends to do one thing to help ease that pain. Obviously it was not an onerous burden: she has more friends, many from that time, than almost anyone else I know. You know the type: She's "that girl" with 1000 friends on her Facebook account, all of whom are actually friends in real life, who see her as one friend they can really count on. So where's the harm?

That's why I disagreed with Nichole when she said there was any "real-life perspective" in this discussion. Most of the time, the reaction when I have come out to people has been, "That's great that you are dealing with this, and no problem to me whatsoever, and tell me what I can do to help -- but I really hope you don't have any trouble with so-and-so." Well, when I come out to "so-and-so," I get exactly the same reaction. And that's the key point:

People tend to be far more concerned about the issue of trans acceptance in the abstract than in actual fact.

One other thing:

You asked friends, even then only a few, to be in on "your secret." Why just a few and which friends did you choose to ask?

Well, since you asked, when I told them it was no longer a secret. I told enough that I knew that even if I wanted it to be a secret (which I didn't, which is why I told them), I figured someone would probably spill the beans. And I made no request to keep the information confidential. I told only a few of my friends at first because I never see all of my friends at once.

I didn't tell certain school friends because I have a more academic relationship with them, and while I didn't care if they knew, it didn't feel appropriate to "dump my personal problems" on them; similarly for some other groups of people in my life.

[K8]

Most of the time, the reaction when I have come out to people has been, "That's great that you are dealing with this, and no problem to me whatsoever, and tell me what I can do to help -- but I really hope you don't have any trouble with so-and-so." Well, when I come out to "so-and-so," I get exactly the same reaction. And that's the key point:

People tend to be far more concerned about the issue of trans acceptance in the abstract than in actual fact.

I realize this thread has been dormant for a while, but your post, Alyssa, brings up a topic I was speaking to a friend about today - people's concern that others are accepting.

I met a woman friend for dinner this week that I hadn't seen since November.  She didn't know about my transition to Kate until a few days before the dinner.  She was very accepting, but said she had only one question: How accepting has everyone been?

A few months ago I had been warned by several friends that everyone in the church would be accepting except so-and-so, who had wintered in Arizona and missed my coming-out.  When he showed up at church, one of his first questions was: How accepting has everyone been?  (Said in a manner that made me think he was going to beat up any who weren't accepting – he's a big man.)

So far – and I know my experience is unusual and that I am incredibly lucky – everyone I've met has been accepting.  Some have trouble with it, accepting it in principle but having trouble dealing with it in fact.  I always have to remind myself to give them time - I've been thinking about this most of my life, while they've only had a very little time to think about it.

- Kate

[Suzy]

Kate, that is a wonderful story, and a beautiful attitude to have.  We do forget that sometimes we need to give people a little bit of time to come to terms for something which, for them is just out of their paradigm.

Kristi

[Deanna_Renee]

Kate, I completely agree with Kristi. That point was echoed to me today as I met with a very dear friend of mine, the first person I have come out to (after my therapist). I had been kind of reluctant to talk to her since last week when I made plans to meet with her today. I was very nervous, had no idea what I was going to say or how to say it. I had even been questioning myself as to why I felt she was the first person who should know.

Well, I met her today and as our conversation went on she let me know why she was in town (she now lives in Chicago, though still does business here). She let me know that she was here for her cousins funeral. I felt so bad that she took time away from family and mourning just to talk to me, but so honored that she felt I was important enough. Well, I found the words that I needed to say and while I knew she would be very accepting - which she was - she also shared with me so much of her heart. It didn't take long for me to realize exactly why I had been led to share with her first. She was also very moved to find out that I trusted her above anyone else to share this news.

She reminded me of how important it will be to give family and friends the time and the space they need to process this huge, incomprehensible news. As you mentioned Kate, I've been dealing with this my whole life, even if I didn't know what it was or what to call it or even that I wasn't the only one, for family and friends this is not only new to them, but they will likely not have any understanding of what GID is or what it means to those who have it. A little love and education and time goes a long way.

Thank you again Kate and Kristi and everyone else, you all mean so much to me. 

Deanna 

[Teknoir]

You gotta fight! For your right! To prooooooooooo-nouns! 

I think how much discomfort you put on cispeople by asking for correct pronouns is dependant on how and why you ask.

If I'm meeting with a bunch of people that don't know my "past", and taking along someone who does, you betcha I'll say something before we get there.

Something along the lines of "If you don't mind, these people don't know of my past and I'd rather they didn't. I'd really appreciate it if you could refrain from using female terms or pronouns in front of them. If you're uncomfotable with male pronouns, my name, a pointed finger or they is just fine".

I've always had people comply with that. I'm not shoving a demand for male pronouns down their throat. I'm not asking them to say anything that's going to spark that mental discord.

I take a similar approach with people who keep refering to me in a female manner. I ask nicely. I tell them that although I understand they're just being nice, those terms do make me very uncomfortable.

There seems to be a hint of "Who's comfort matters most?" happening in this thread. I think it's got more to do with mutual respect needing to remain mutual.

I don't demand male pronouns. People will adapt on their own given time. I don't think anyone will female term me when I'm sporting a beard - it'll cause that mental discord they're all trying to avoid.

[sneakersjay]

I don't demand male pronouns. People will adapt on their own given time. I don't think anyone will female term me when I'm sporting a beard - it'll cause that mental discord they're all trying to avoid.

They will adapt -- but when? is the question.

I'm sporting a pretty good beard at this point, and even had to trim it with beard trimmers this weekend.  At work last night and this morning, no less than 4 employees said she, and only one self-corrected.  I've stopped correcting them. At this point, people who didn't know me call me HE and the ones who say she (primarily out of earshot of the clients) are the ones who are going to get the raised eyebrow, not me.

I've learned if someone says SHE in mixed company, or my kids yell MOM! in a store, I just use a 5-10 second delay before responding.  If I'm getting a raised eyebrow in a store I might say, I'm not sure where Mom went, what do you need? 

Jay