Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I think I may sound small minded...or stubborn...but during my transition I made a point of only associaiting with Genetic females, or shopped/travelled..etc by myself, and activley avoided the chance of being in the street with another transgendered person, as I was passing well I felt it would draw attention I didnt want...omg I sound monsterous...however this was my attitude. I felt that the best models to base my behaviour on was other women, how they chose their clothes, how they wore them/cobined them, their makeyp, how they expressed themselves.....and so forth. Silly becuase I've had my fair share of being read, and clearly rermember the worst incident with clarity.

When I was working, a couple of girls, who could not pass with a bag over their head, would come in and I would not look in their direction.  That was so that they would not want to come over and start a conversation.  The last thing I needed was to be outed by any other transperson whether by association or in a personal interaction.


Janet

Quote from: rogue on October 13, 2009, 02:55:21 PM
I think I may sound small minded...or stubborn...but during my transition I made a point of only associaiting with Genetic females, or shopped/travelled..etc by myself, and activley avoided the chance of being in the street with another transgendered person, as I was passing well I felt it would draw attention I didnt want...omg I sound monsterous...however this was my attitude. I felt that the best models to base my behaviour on was other women, how they chose their clothes, how they wore them/cobined them, their makeyp, how they expressed themselves.....and so forth. Silly becuase I've had my fair share of being read, and clearly rermember the worst incident with clarity.

While transition is now many years behind me, I did and still do avoid all public contact with other TS's, regardless of their status.  I find no need for any association.  Yes it may be cruel and monstrous, but it's a cruel and monstrous world out there.  Lets face it... one person in transition out and about is often hard to spot, but put two together and the gig is up.

-={LR}=-

I forgive all of you who feel this way.

Quote from: Virginia87106 on October 13, 2009, 03:36:58 PM
I forgive all of you who feel this way.

Whew... I feel much better now.

-={LR}=-

Nope, not at all.

Quote from: heatherrose on October 13, 2009, 04:11:26 PM

We are entitled to not be subjected to discrimination because
we do not practice discrimination within our own "community"?

Who mentioned discrimination?

-={LR}=-

Discrimination is a sociological term referring to treatment taken toward or against a person of a certain group that is taken in consideration based on class or category. The United Nations explains: "Discriminatory behaviours take many forms, but they all involve some form of exclusion or rejection."

The point was well made above that exclusion of transgender persons because one does not want to be "outed" as transgender....is discrimination.

No I don't avoid other transsexuals. I think some of the girls in my area look up to me as a role model of sorts. There was nobody around to help me so I am happy to step up and help them if I can. Unless they act like asses!
I do, however, avoid Drag Queens and Crossdressers (not that there is anything wrong with that). they just tend to be a bit too flambouyant and over the top for me.

This is an interesting topic. I see it like this, a person is a person trans or non trans. The issue with me is weather or not we have anything in common. Just because your trans to doesn't make us BFF's. Think about it, if your in a a gender roll of any kind do you just rush over to every same gender person, my guess issss, NOT. ALSO I would not run up to another trans person and be like "HEY YOUR TRANS TO!" It all about boundaries... thats all.

With that said I would not EVER blow another trans person off just because they don't pass. It sends the wrong message about my character and to the general public at large. I will always give you a chance. If your a good person with good intentions than you will most likely get my attention.

Hope this makes sense...

Quote from: Virginia87106 on October 13, 2009, 04:24:07 PM
Discrimination is a sociological term referring to treatment taken toward or against a person of a certain group that is taken in consideration based on class or category. The United Nations explains: "Discriminatory behaviours take many forms, but they all involve some form of exclusion or rejection."

The point was well made above that exclusion of transgender persons because one does not want to be "outed" as transgender....is discrimination.

So the fact that I didn't/don't seek other TS to have an "Outing" with makes me discriminatory?  Ya right, I didn't see hordes of TS seeking out my company when I was in transition.  Give me a break, I transitioned for me, and me alone, yep I'm selfish... Hmmm maybe that's why other TS didn't seek me out, ya think :(

-={LR}=-

I have be around other TSs that did not pass at all, but if they are happy.  The whole point of my transition is to blend in and one day go semi-stealth.  Being with others that don't seem to care about blending makes me self conscience.

I am not discriminating, except in my taste for blending in.  Most of the girls here, I would have no problem going out with.


Janet

Quote from: heatherrose on October 13, 2009, 05:18:54 PM

The chain of discrimination is broken when one of the links
chooses to judge another by the content of their character
and not by their incongruous gender representation.

I think there's a little hypocrisy flying around here.  We make discriminatory decisions everyday of our lives, we take part in those things we like and avoid those we don't like.

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 13, 2009, 05:53:13 PM
We make discriminatory decisions everyday of our lives, we take part in those things we like and avoid those we don't like.

-={LR}=-

Right, but being down right rude because you don't like the way someone looks is a completely different story.

Quote from: Mischa on October 13, 2009, 05:57:08 PM
Right, but being down right rude because you don't like the way someone looks is a completely different story.

Hmmm...  With all due respect Mischa, please show me where in any of my posts to this topic that I mentioned anything about how anyone looks.  I believe I said:

"I did and still do avoid all public contact with other TS's, regardless of their status."

-={LR}=-

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 13, 2009, 03:27:31 PM
While transition is now many years behind me, I did and still do avoid all public contact with other TS's, regardless of their status.  I find no need for any association.  Yes it may be cruel and monstrous, but it's a cruel and monstrous world out there.  Lets face it... one person in transition out and about is often hard to spot, but put two together and the gig is up.

-={LR}=-

Sorry if I offended you. The apparent premise behind this quote has everything to do with looks.

I can understand that, and I don't judge someone for doing that. I've gone out with other trans ppl and seen ppl look at them with the OMG look. It can be hard, because then you feel self-conscious too.

For me, however, friends are friends. If one of my friends are transitioning I go out with them anyway. I really don't care and sometimes I get a bit of a punk attitude and stare back at people with a "what's your problem" look. But, that's just me, and I totally understand what it's like.

I have a few friends that are trans, although most of my friends aren't trans and over all I've drifted away from the "trans" world, so I don't end up hanging out with many trans people these days. I think that happens to a lot of people in the community. Although, there are many that stay in the community and in many cases, most of their friends are trans.

Sometimes there becomes a divide between the starters and those further a long. Some times hanging around just brings a lot of anxiety; you have starters that are envious of you, and you don't want to re-visit the feelings all over again. It's a difficult time with transitioning, and being in that world when you're ahead sometimes feels like you're stuck revisiting those feelings and stuck in the "trans world."

I think it's healthy to have friends outside of the trans community, and it's natural to drift away as you go along. Others, sometimes, choose to stay in the community and that's perfectly fine, too. The community can bring a lot of security and support to a person who needs it. Also, some ppl take on the position of being an activist for the community or being a great help to those starting -- that's perfectly fine. It all comes down to choice.

Personally, 99% of my life is outside of the trans world. There have been times when I've gone to activists events (ie, when the Alberta government delisted GRS os a covered healthcare cost). And I will sometimes make an appearance at the local group, but not very often. I have a few friends that are trans and a few that I'll talk to and hang out with, but not all. To me it comes down to if they are a friend or not, and not so much if they are trans or not. Just because someone is trans it doesn't mean that I own them my friendship; or that I owe everyone in group to "show them the way."

In the past, I've tried to help a few ppl with transitioning -- usually ending up in disaster. I found that sometimes ppl will try to hold onto my hand too much for direction, but in reality they have to make their transition their transition. My way isn't the way for everyone else. I also found a lot of people who start transitioning end up having crushes on me... that 'causes a lot of problems as well. I realize, however, the crushes come from misdirected admiration for me and the desire to be where I'm at in life. I call it the rock star curse, or perhaps more appropriately, the trans star curse. LOL

Now, instead, I'll offer up some advice. I'll go shopping with you if you want. But I'm not gonna hold someone's hand through the whole process 'cause I know how important it is for someone to learn to fly on their own two wings.

So, that's where I'm at. I don't blame someone who goes either way -- if they stay in the community and become the rock that others need, or if they just life life outside of the trans world. I can understand the avoiding part, 'cause I know how being with another trans person (especially someone just starting out) can really affect you in a lot of ways.

--natalie

Quote from: Mischa on October 13, 2009, 06:08:46 PM
Sorry if I offended you. The apparent premise behind this quote has everything to do with looks.

No offence taken... By status I meant pre-op or post-op.  :)

-={LR}=-

You could ask the rich if they actively avoid being seen with the poor. 

Or you could ask the beautiful if they actively avoid being seen with ugly.

Or you could ask royalty if they actively avoid being seen with commoners.

It's all a matter of "class" and perception and how interacting with someone outside of your "circle" is socially judged.

People who think they are better than someone else will avoid them.  People who are concerned that socializing with certain people will cause others to look down on them will avoid those situations.  If you are worried how others will judge you then you will most likely avoid anyone who might "make you look bad".  (General statement - exceptions noted.)

In my former life I had that 'judging people and avoiding the riff-raff' mentality.  I was even fearful of gays.  But I lived in a box with a bunch of people who taught me that was the right way to be (maybe half of society) and I was ignorant.  Then I went to a gay bar and met some very fine people and the doors began to open.

It's what's in a person's heart that matters, not what they look like.  And I have found some true gems in this new life I would never have known had I stayed in that box.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 13, 2009, 07:11:11 PM
You could ask the rich if they actively avoid being seen with the poor. 

Or you could ask the beautiful if they actively avoid being seen with ugly.

Or you could ask royalty if they actively avoid being seen with commoners.

It's all a matter of "class" and perception and how interacting with someone outside of your "circle" is socially judged.

People who think they are better than someone else will avoid them.  People who are concerned that socializing with certain people will cause others to look down on them will avoid those situations.  If you are worried how others will judge you then you will most likely avoid anyone who might "make you look bad".  (General statement - exceptions noted.)

In my former life I had that 'judging people and avoiding the riff-raff' mentality.  I was even fearful of gays.  But I lived in a box with a bunch of people who taught me that was the right way to be (maybe half of society) and I was ignorant.  Then I went to a gay bar and met some very fine people and the doors began to open.

It's what's in a person's heart that matters, not what they look like.  And I have found some true gems in this new life I would never have known had I stayed in that box.

Julie

I think you are being entirely unfair implying that we think we are better than those we choose not to associate with or that we have a riff-raff mentality.  You seem to forget that many of us endured the same loneliness and sense of rejection when we transitioned.  Just when are we allowed to live our lives for ourselves without someone coming along with this holier than thou attitude criticizing us for wanting to live our lives the way they were meant to be.  It's no wonder folks leave sites such as this when we are constantly reminded of the apparent debt we owe.

The topic is about one group of people, TG people and just because I choose not to associate with this group doesn't make me a bad person.  I avoid being seen with many groups/types of people does that make me a bad person?  I do spend an awful lot of time with Special Needs Students, those who have challenges far more severe than anything I've encountered and I do it because of something I choose to do it's got nothing to do with class my dear, but everything to do with compassion, and the trust, and affection exchanged between us.

-={LR}=-

-={LR}=-

I think as trans people we should not be obligated to try to 'blend in'. We should not have to feel the need to blend in just to avoid attention. For me a man in drag should not cause more comment than your average guy in jeans and tshirt. Realisticly it does draw attention, but normalisation won't happen if we constantly hide.

I think we should respect that some of us want to blend in and in that regard I think it is ok to recognise that being with someone that does not blend in so well draws attention to yourself. As women or men you have the right to be treated and be percieved just as any other woman or man.

Personally I have no need to blend but I am concious that my pressence can draw attention to the people I am with. From that perspective I have avoided approaching other stealthy trans people. But you could be walking around naked in high heels in town, I don't care, you can still hang with me (assuming I like you of course  ;)).

Quote from: Matilda on October 13, 2009, 06:43:25 PM
Yes I do, and I really don't care how people want to call it.  After all, most (if not all) of us live in a free country, and we are entitled to choose who we want to be friends with, who we want to be seen with, who we want to socialize with, etc.

There was a time, several years ago, when I made that mistake, and boy, I regretted it immensely.  To make a long story short.  There I was shopping in the middle of a crowded supermarket at 5:00 P.M. (rush hour) with some trans people who had the "I am my own woman" and "I am my own man" mindset ::).  The women were worse than the guys.  They didn't even try to speak with a feminine voice or to dress in a manner according to their age and gender identification.  To put it simply, they (none of them) didn't give a damn about anything.  End result: scrutiny, laughs, giggles, hairy looks, and whispers from everybody else at the supermarket and with a good reason.

The "I am my own woman" or "I am my own man" mentality can work if you live in a cave or in a different planet, but if you care to be part of this society and don't want to be discriminated against, at least have the decency to behave (or at least try) like other women or men do.

Or like the saying goes:  If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen.


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi572.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss161%2Fmatilda23%2F061.gif&hash=8f2301193b0dc73bb2e3c64f938f2048ea1a0591)

This, and the other comment in the thread about DQs, is why I was bothered by the drag queen approaching me at work... and why I'm surprised that the responses turned to talking about a movie instead of reacting weirded out like I was. I don't wear a neon sign around my neck, I just get by on my own merits and peoples' perceptions.

I have a TS friend - she's chosen an obscure male name to go by instead of a female one. It doesn't even sound like a real name, even though it's very old. I think that she's inviting a lot of problems because of that. I don't think either of us want to be out in public alone together, but the friend circle we have is large and weird and at social gatherings we look pretty normal.

Transition is transitory. Eventually it ends.  The thing is, a lot of people dealing with our issues also have a lot of comorbid issues. And sometimes people with issues are difficult to deal with or make poor decisions or get into trouble that people who are at a more stable place in their life won't. And it can be inviting trouble to pair up with TS's who are unknown quantities, I think.

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 13, 2009, 07:55:29 PM
I think you are being entirely unfair implying that we think we are better than those we choose not to associate with or that we have a riff-raff mentality.  You seem to forget that many of us endured the same loneliness and sense of rejection when we transitioned.  Just when are we allowed to live our lives for ourselves without someone coming along with this holier than thou attitude criticizing us for wanting to live our lives the way they were meant to be.  It's no wonder folks leave sites such as this when we are constantly reminded of the apparent debt we owe.

The topic is about one group of people, TG people and just because I choose not to associate with this group doesn't make me a bad person.  I avoid being seen with many groups/types of people does that make me a bad person?  I do spend an awful lot of time with Special Needs Students, those who have challenges far more severe than anything I've encountered and I do it because of something I choose to do it's got nothing to do with class my dear, but everything to do with compassion, and the trust, and affection exchanged between us.

-={LR}=-

-={LR}=-

I wasn't singling anyone out or pointing fingers.  All I was doing was making general statements based on what I have learned in my life and acknowledging there are exceptions.  No one statement can apply to everyone except maybe 'we all die'.

If you took what I said personally, it wasn't intended that way and I'm sorry I failed to make that clear.

My point was and is, if we exclude certain people from our lives we may miss out on meeting some very special people.  You work with Special Needs Students.  You know what I'm talking about.  The rest of the world might reject them but you know there are some very special and unique kids there.  You didn't close the door on them and their lives and yours have been enriched because of that.  That's pretty cool.

No judgment, no harm intended.

Julie

And So the arguement begins

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 14, 2009, 12:41:28 AM
I wasn't singling anyone out or pointing fingers.  All I was doing was making general statements based on what I have learned in my life and acknowledging there are exceptions.  No one statement can apply to everyone except maybe 'we all die'.

If you took what I said personally, it wasn't intended that way and I'm sorry I failed to make that clear.

My point was and is, if we exclude certain people from our lives we may miss out on meeting some very special people.  You work with Special Needs Students.  You know what I'm talking about.  The rest of the world might reject them but you know there are some very special and unique kids there.  You didn't close the door on them and their lives and yours have been enriched because of that.  That's pretty cool.

No judgment, no harm intended.

Julie

Point taken.

While there is no doubt there are many, many wonderful people out there, TG's included, who would enrich our lives should we choose to know them, one shouldn't be judged negatively because we choose not to go out of our way or purposely avoid them.

-={LR}=-

I was in a crowded public library one day.
A strange woman came towards me and greeted me loudly, "Hi, I'm Jasmine, I'm transgendered too!"
Her (apparently TG) friend started tugging at her elbow and reminded her that they had to go shopping.

That was a bit weird.

:icon_chuckel:

Quote from: heatherrose on October 14, 2009, 12:02:20 AM

Who said that you must be friends with anyone based solely on their "trans" status?
Certainly, the only thing that any of us have in common, is we all are gender variant
to some degree. It is unimaginable though, that some would choose not to
associate with someone else based solely on their "trans" status.

I agree with this.
_

That's the thing.
No one can get alone well with everyone, but to decide to purposefully avoid a whole bunch of people for something which they can't help, be it being trans, or gay, or black, or whatever, just sounds... well...
You know what it sounds like.

If I were to write on this forum that I refuse to be associated with black people in real life, then you would (rightly) call me a racist.

Just my 2 cents.

Quote from: heatherrose on October 14, 2009, 07:03:12 AM

...and what could be rightly said,
if you having said that,
were yourself a black person?

That's a good question.
Honestly, I think people would still think me a racist, only a self-hating one.

Quote from: heatherrose on October 14, 2009, 07:03:12 AM

...and what could be rightly said,
if you having said that,
were yourself a black person?

That's an interesting analogy...

"I am a caucasian born in the wrong body.  I went through years of painful surgery and skin bleaching and have now fully transitioned.  I am uncomfortable associating with people of colour"

The immediate conclusion is prejudice, especially when rephrased in these deliberately provocative terms...but maybe we can dig a bit deeper and see that it could be rooted in an intrinsic, parochial discomfort with their own past.  An irrational but genuine fear/discomfort that by knowingly associating with a demographic one has deliberately transitioned out of, one is somehow regressing ones own progress or "outing" oneself?  I dunno...

Quote from: finewine on October 14, 2009, 07:31:49 AM
That's an interesting analogy...

"I am a caucasian born in the wrong body.  I went through years of painful surgery and skin bleaching and have now fully transitioned.  I am uncomfortable associating with people of colour"

The immediate conclusion is prejudice, especially when rephrased in these deliberately provocative terms...but maybe we can dig a bit deeper and see that it could be rooted in an intrinsic, parochial discomfort with their own past.  An irrational but genuine fear/discomfort that by knowingly associating with a demographic one has deliberately transitioned out of, one is somehow regressing ones own progress or "outing" oneself?  I dunno...

Actually, I would believe it would go more like this:

"I was born caucasian but feel I am a black person on the inside. After years of remedying this and transitioning to appear black I am now uncomfortable with associating with people transitioning from white to black."

Quote from: Miniar on October 14, 2009, 07:15:35 AM
That's a good question.
Honestly, I think people would still think me a racist, only a self-hating one.

I knew someone like this. He was black but didn't like black people. either way you look at its racism.

Quote from: heatherrose on October 14, 2009, 07:03:12 AM
...and what could be rightly said, if you having said that, were yourself a black person?

Oh, I'd imagine something like an "Uncle Tom" (not rightly, just what one might hear)

Quote from: Mischa on October 14, 2009, 07:48:20 AM
I knew someone like this. He was black but didn't like black people. either way you look at its racism.

The bising, a tree shrew from Palawan, is called anti-social because it avoids its own kind.  In fact, it fights any bising coming into its territory and has to eat all day because it burns up so much energy fighting.

No matter how you label this avoidance issue in the community, there's an underlying reason for it that is not being discussed.

Julie

I have and do associate with other TS people in public.  We are aware of the "two ->-bleeped-<-" rule (a term that I find offensive) but I go anyway even though I may and have been outed.  See the thing is, most do not go out the door the first few months passing perfectly.  They need support and companionship in this fragile time.  It got our group strange looks and in one case, we were given bathroom paper towels instead of napkins.  But it didn't kill me and the gals eventually find their way to pass. 

For my situation, I like friends and TS people are friends to me so why wouldn't I want to go out with them?  I will admit though that there is a certain amount of trepidation sometimes and if I am not up to the gauntlet, I have decided to stay home. 

The most difficult times are when there are several new transitioners who really don't know much about how to dress or act in public.  Some may not be up to transitioning and will stop.  They may or may not stop partly because of the experience we have being out in public.  So in that way, my participation is even more important.  Still it requires all the confidence I can muster when some dude starts watching us for half an hour while the gals forget where they are and talk and act manly.   

I don't think this is then a matter of discrimination.  It is a matter of shared experience and a form of mentoring.  Not everyone can do it and I don't think ill of those who can't.

Maggie

Sometimes I do. The support group for my metropolitan area meets in my suburb. I don't go to it because it's usually pretty dysfunctional, and not in sync with where I'm at. If they have a good speaker, say, a surgeon, I'll go and listen.

They usually go out to have a bite to eat afterwards. I did that before I transitioned, it was usually at a very low key place where no one cared. But after awhile, as I became the person I am now, I stopped accompanying them to a restaurant, especially since they go to a much more public place now. Going out was fun at first, but soon I noticed I'd end up at a table with people I really didn't want to be with at all. These same people would give me such stellar advice as "you should take twice as many hormones!" Why, so I can kill myself?? Or they'd do something unladylike such as the time a girl pulled up her sweater at the table to show me her boobs. Classy.

I have no problems moving about in society. The last thing I need is to get labeled by going out with a bunch that draw attention to themselves by reason of numbers, their inability to pass, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I long for a special friend to share this with, but I just don't meet many people that I have things in common with, or that aren't flaky. Add to that the fact that I don't feel my age, I feel younger, and it's very hard to meet anyone.

I think folks need to bring this thing into perspective.  Almost daily we all decide who we want to be seen with, who we want to associate with, many people, groups, sub-groups are excluded, that does not make one a racist.  I choose my own friends and acquaintances.  The same applies at work and at the local brew pub where I'm a regular, I choose the people I like to be with, people who make me happy, people who I'm comfortable with, people I can relax and enjoy myself with.  I am not a racist just because some are excluded.

-={LR}=-

I absolutely don't avoid other trans folk of whatever stripe, status, looks, etc. Nor do I particularly seek them out, except for when I'm looking for support. The one issue that comes up is that sometimes being around trans women makes me more aware of my own insecurities -- that is, seeing their physical flaws reminds me of my own in a way that being around women who are obese or have bad acne or have no clue about fashion doesn't. That just means I need to work on my looks, confidence, and body image. I try to just look my best, whatever company I keep. I try to pass not by avoiding scrutiny, but by looking, sounding, acting, and being the All-American Girl from New York City. Other women can hang around with trans women without their gender being questioned -- if I can't, then I have failed. And if I don't hang out with trans women in order to avoid scrutiny, then I automatically fail. Avoiding situations in which I am likely to be clocked simply doesn't make me feel confident.

Topics like this are always controversial, lets try to keep responses civil and not personal.

If not it will get locked.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 14, 2009, 04:53:44 PM
I think folks need to bring this thing into perspective.  Almost daily we all decide who we want to be seen with, who we want to associate with, many people, groups, sub-groups are excluded, that does not make one a racist.  I choose my own friends and acquaintances.  The same applies at work and at the local brew pub where I'm a regular, I choose the people I like to be with, people who make me happy, people who I'm comfortable with, people I can relax and enjoy myself with.  I am not a racist just because some are excluded.

-={LR}=-

Everyone chooses who to socialize with, that doesn't make a person racist.
But choosing they won't socialize with a  race, regardless of the individual personality and character of the various individuals of that race, then that's a different matter...
That's the point really.

Well rogue, we think exactly the same. However, for the moment as I generally do not pass, I don't really care being with those like me and in fact I am very happy and have fun with them but for sure after transition, I'll definitely cut all ties with them not to leave any doubts.

Socially we are encouraged not to judge a person by their appearance.  "Don't judge a book by its cover."

Socially we are given a very clear message that appearance is how someone you will first be judged.  "A first impression is a lasting impression."

Is it any wonder why we can't agree at times?

We are told:

"March to the tune of a different drummer."

"Be yourself."

"Be a leader, not a follower."

And then we are taught:

"As long as you walk, talk, dress, act just like everybody else."

Society is filled with mixed messages.  Everyone should be free to be themselves, to associate with whoever they want, to pursue whatever endeavor they want (so long as it doesn't cause another harm) and not be hampered by a society hung up on conformity.  Unfortunately, if you choose to do this, you have to be diplomatic about how you express this choice.

We are all pressured into conformity to varying degrees.  It's society's insecurity and phobias that make conformity so important.  Ignorance, and one's choice to remain ignorant, plays a role in that too.  Take away the social pressure to conform and then ask yourself if it would have any effect on who you would be comfortable making friends with.  No need to respond to that here.  It wasn't meant to challenge anyone.  It's best answered in your heart.

If I were to choose to be an activist for any cause I feel hampers our personal growth the most, it would be to get rid of society's need for everyone to conform.  Imagine what that world would be like...

Julie

Quote from: Maggie Kay on October 14, 2009, 09:00:27 AMI don't think this is then a matter of discrimination.  It is a matter of shared experience

That, for me, is the key. A young femme MtF - no problem - I understand that.

Some very good observations have been made on this subject, what interests me is the dynamic interactions of challanges that may occur during the transition process, and how there are a finite number of similar life experiences with approximate stressors. Additionally how these sequenced changes may correlate to commonalities in cognitions of transgendered individuals.
In that, prior to transition, I had no personal experience of prejudice, or of how an individual who may exist in a social setting such as a high street without proactivley monitoring ones environment, to a situation of being highly vigilant, and self monitoring on an intensive basis. With a subsequent cognitive outcome of such behavioural modification, without adequate support, resulting in polarised and fixed feelings of paranoia, and acute vulnerability. Further more, londitudinal coping strategies may include the adoption of rule goverened behaviour, whether they be rational or maladaptive, they serve as defences, and ways to get through each day, or minute by minute. 

Could you translate that into some language spoken by those of us who aren't humanities grad students? Mandarin, say, or Icelandic, perhaps? Eschew superciliously erudite prolixity!  :police:

Just teasing. ;) I think I caught your drift. But, wow, that was some seriously academic discourse you had goin' on there!

I feel that "friends are friends" too and I don't mind hanging out with those still transitioning etc as I am, and I just don't care.

That being said, that may answer why this other transdude I've met who lives near me isn't emailing etc at all - he's done the driver's license etc is fully transitioned, and may not want to be seen with me, as I am a sort of hybrid creature right now. And well, it kinda sucks but then, he's roughly 20 years younger than me and too much of an "old man" lol. Beer, motorcycles, shooting pellet guns, staying up all night watching all of Beavis and Butt-Head, going up to the City to check out all the sex shops, drinking too much beer, blowing stuff up, etc no amount of good clean guy fun offered has been able to smoke him out and he's always in bed by 10 anyway so .... yawn.

This thread peaked at post #18, but still a worthy read! :P

The thread title was/is:-
"Do you/have you actively avoided being seen with other transgendered people?"

"Do you/have you...".

It asks for personal opinions yet a portion are questioning each others opinion.
Personally, for me no (not up for debate).
If a TG is conscious about being read by the public while around another TG it could be because they are questioning their own ability to pass. Some of us put an importance on passing, it's not horrible unless you feel like you do pass, because if you do then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Natal people hang out with TG folk all the time and don't worry about being labelled a TG.

I'm cool with it as long as they are fairly good looking but not better looking than me bcuz OMG I would die!

seriously...as long as they are a friend, have thier heads on straight and don't make a fool of themselves on a regular basis it's fine by me however they present/identify. It's not what they present but how they present.

Comorbidities and ameliorating perplexities notwithstanding in a curiously strange and offbeat potpourri that is....

Ooops...Sorry...I am a psych graduate and studying in the next step in a health setting, I get a bit intense in the whole analysis, observation...more analysis thing.....I should take a break. I didnt mean to be rude or snobbish.. I guess its possible to come across that way if you write/express yourself in a wordy/swallowed a thesaurus way. I'll engage sensible mode next time :      )

Luv

Rogue x 

Quote from: aubrey on October 16, 2009, 06:43:07 AM
I'm cool with it as long as they are fairly good looking but not better looking than me bcuz OMG I would die!

lol that is so funny!!  and yet can be so true, must be the female in us....I love seeing very attractive Trans woman but def get a bit 'grrrrrrrrr' about it at the same time espeically if they are much younger then myself.

Having said that I have no problem associated with other TS people, perhaps when I was starting out on transistion I knew more trans woman as I was looking for support.  Generally I don't seek TS people out these days, its more of a 'do we have anything in common' concept.

Quote from: wabbit2 on October 17, 2009, 07:37:17 PM
.. but def get a bit 'grrrrrrrrr' about it at the same time espeically if they are much younger then myself.

I get a lot of compliments, most I don't understand or take as someone trying to lift my mood. But when I am out somewhere and I say that I'm bugged about something or upset over anything to do with me I get that, "pffttt how dare you be upset about anything, just take a look around you honey"..attitude. It sucks and it's confusing. What I feel and go through on the inside is no different to what other people feel, we all have our hang-ups. This is one of the main reasons I don't go out as often as I do, still getting my head around it.
S.

To answer the original question: Yes, sometimes.

I have lots of trans friends that I have made during my transition. But since I've started passing pretty well, I find myself rethinking hanging out or going out to certain places with certain people. I mean, I've worked SO hard and lost so much in order to blend in/pass. Why be seen with those who can't (or worse, don't really even try) to pass? It invites scrutiny that would not normally happen. If I were cis female, I'd give much less of a rip about being seen with transwomen and possibly having people think I'm trans also, but I'm not cis.

Quote from: Tank Grrl on October 21, 2009, 11:26:40 AM
To answer the original question: Yes, sometimes.

I have lots of trans friends that I have made during my transition. But since I've started passing pretty well, I find myself rethinking hanging out or going out to certain places with certain people. I mean, I've worked SO hard and lost so much in order to blend in/pass. Why be seen with those who can't (or worse, don't really even try) to pass? It invites scrutiny that would not normally happen. If I were cis female, I'd give much less of a rip about being seen with transwomen and possibly having people think I'm trans also, but I'm not cis.

You make a valid point. Each individual has to make their own decision on whether they did this to become a woman, or to become a TS. I have encountered at least one individual who seemed to do it for the attention more than anything else.

WOW! I have been soo struggling with this very issue. I have been full-time for almost a year and my gender therapist keeps giving me names of other trans people and groups. I joined a GLT group that covers my state and finally went to a group dinner. I have never felt so uncomfortable in my life! I'm on HRT but I've got a long way to go before I'm 90% passable, even so I never ever have problems. In fact people go out of their way to compliment me and treat me kindly. When I met this group for dinner people were staring at us non-stop. Instead of just being a women out on her own or with a girlfriend I was suddenly a cross-dresser or something? Yes, the girls were all in different stages and I was there once but... I'm feeling bad about my feelings and the whole thing really set me back. The thing is, they could be good friends and real source of support when I need it plus I feel that maybe I owe them the support I never had?

I definitely know the feeling of awkwardness in larger groups of trans people.

I have a group of queer friends who aften attend a popular monthly event at a gay nightclub. One of this group is trans, and I know another trans person who often goes with a trans support group. Now, I knew both my trans friends from before I began transitioning, and it's never the slightest bit awkward to hang out with them -- they are just friends, and I'm always happy to see them -- but when I've run into the trans group at this event, it's always a bit more awkward, not just because they aren't my friends, but because they seem to be a bit segregated from the rest of the people at the club. And I do feel like I stand out more when I'm with them. But I think the bigger part of it is that I simply don't know them or have all that much in common with them. I try not to sweat it either way.

Reading this I have a couple thoughts based on my own experiences,

1) The rule of two is not always true depending on the transpeople.  I know several transpeople that I can spend an entire day with and have zero issues with any of us getting read.

2) I do tend to be selective with which transpeople I spend time with.  But my deciding factor has nothing to do with appearance, but rather stability.  Far too many transpeople have underlying mental health issues they are not dealing with (and I'm not referring to the emotional impact of GID).  I wouldn't hang with a cisperson who undertakes self-destructive behavior, so why would I do so with a transperson?.

3) Here's a few simple rules of transpeople I will *not* associate with:
a) If you drool over my cleavage, I will not spend time with you (unless, of course, you are attractive enough to me to *want* you to do so).
b) If you cannot follow basic societal norms (for example, if you are in a skirt and not wearing underwear, do not sit so others can see everything that is going on).
c) If you are old enough to be my parents, do not expect me to be a friend or to want to spend time with you.  Generational gaps are vast.
d) If the only thing we have in common is being trans, I'm not going to find you socially appealing to hang with.

I think these rules are pretty typical of any human interaction, yet to my surprise, several local transwomen become offended if I state them.

4) It surprises me how few transwomen appreciate the need for certain areas of our lives to be trans-free.  There are areas where we are, by need, stealth.  To intrude upon those areas is not cool.  For example, I was hired to work for someone unaware of my trans-status.  To have another transperson decide they can intrude upon that space without my invitation because they know me is *not* acceptable behavior.

Quote from: pheonix on October 26, 2009, 04:04:32 PM
Reading this I have a couple thoughts based on my own experiences,

<Snip>
...  Far too many transpeople have underlying mental health issues they are not dealing with (and I'm not referring to the emotional impact of GID).  I wouldn't hang with a cisperson who undertakes self-destructive behavior, so why would I do so with a transperson?.
<Snip>

I think you are being entirely unfair with this statement.  How on earth do you know that many transpeople have underlying mental health issues they are not dealing with?  Oh wait... You must have Googled it right!

-={LR}=-

As far as the "judging people by their looks" thing we have going here...I don't think theres a single person on this forum who can truthfully say they've never had reservations hanging out with someone due to appearance, even outside a trans standpoint. Most likely if a schizophrenic homeless woman walked up to you and wanted to go shopping with you all day, you'd not take her along...we make our first impressions socially by what we all look like, hence one reason why fashion is such a big deal for both genders in society.

I would feel mixed emotions going out with trans friends (I know no one personally), on one hand I would know I was being inadvertently outed to everyone who saw me just by talking with this person. On the other hand, if I know this person to actually hang out with for any length of time, I probably am past the point of caring and just want to be around them. I wouldn't run up to another trans person and try to bond just because we both happen to be trans, and I hope to god no one does it to me.

That said, I generally stay happy in my computer hole like the little geekboy I am unless forced into sunlight for some dire emergency or work.

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 26, 2009, 06:47:53 PM
I think you are being entirely unfair with this statement.  How on earth do you know that many transpeople have underlying mental health issues they are not dealing with?  Oh wait... You must have Googled it right!

-={LR}=-

While that statement is unfair and prejudgemental, I can see the issues arising...I can see a lot of transpeople might not take care of other issues like bipolar disorder, depression, etc etc because they mistakenly associate it as a "flare up" of the GID. Maybe Phoenix just got unlucky in the draw.

Quote from: chrissyboy on November 11, 2009, 04:53:00 AM
While that statement is unfair and prejudgemental, I can see the issues arising...I can see a lot of transpeople might not take care of other issues like bipolar disorder, depression, etc etc because they mistakenly associate it as a "flare up" of the GID. Maybe Phoenix just got unlucky in the draw.

I have been woefully misinterpreted here -- I do not "prejudge" transpeople.  But I do judge them on the actions, behaviors and choices they make.

I've met transwomen in support groups who were alcoholics and not seeking help.  I wouldn't spend time with a cis-alcoholic not in recovery, so why would I spend time with trans ones?

Another woman was bi-polar and refused to take medications to deal with the issue -- she was extraordinarily unstable and had threatened others in the group with violence.  Why would I expose myself to that?

There is nothing inappropriate with avoiding people engaged in self-destructive behavior.

If my choice of the word "many" has everyone upset then I would point out I used the phrase "far too many"  as in of the population of transpeople we have a significantly higher percentage of folks with issues they are ignoring.  And Chrissy - you hit it on the head.  I constantly see some transpeople blaming GID for things that have nothing to do with their GID.  There's this misconception among some that transition is a panacea... it is not.  You've got to deal with all your issues including GID if you're gonna get your life together.