I can't say I've had any real ones, though I had a scare once when I really didn't know what I wanted for my Birthday, and my Mum was like 'Sex change?'. Now, this was at a point in my life where I was going through a pretty rough time, as a young adult, and I was sure she'd found out and was testing the waters. To this day I'm pretty certain it was coincidence but it wasn't a fun moment. :P
The only other thing is a few of my female friends have said I should CD for Halloween a few times because I look 'right' for that sort of thing. Naturally I totally wimped out. :P
Anyone had any situations like this, or ones of more serious natures?
When I came out to my family and childhood friends, I was greatly disappointed at least one of them didn't say: We always knew there was something odd about you. Of course they knew there was something odd about me, they just didn't think it was because I'm TS. ;)
When we are trying to hide something - anything - we often see hints that people have found out where in fact they didn't.
- Kate
I tried to cut my privates off when I was 6, and for some reason that didn't raise any alarms.
Nobody has really been suspicious per se, but nobody has been surprised either. My ex boyfriend always suspected, because I didn't fit into the gay community very well at all and apparently I didn't interact with him the same way his past significant others had. He wasn't the least bit shocked and seemed amused with me (for a while anyway). One person said "well that explains a lot" and another said "I knew it". Well gee, why didn't anybody tell me.
Quote from: Becca on November 18, 2009, 06:49:36 PM
One person said "well that explains a lot" and another said "I knew it". Well gee, why didn't anybody tell me.
When I came out to one of my friends, I went through this routine of leading up to the big announcement and finally said: I'm transgendered. She immediately shot back: I know. It threw me off my rhythm, and I too wondered why she hadn't told me. ::)
- Kate
When I was about 20 or so I made dinner for my forks and my uncle. I really liked to cook when I have a dencent kitchen to work in. I had made a mock apple pie for dessert. After dinner, during coffee and pie, my uncle made the remark "Someday you will make someone a wonderful wife". :o You have to understand that I wasn't having a bad bout with GID at the time.
We laughed it off. But that night I dreamed that I was exactly that. A wonderful wife to a great husband and I had children. Needless to say I woke more confused than ever.
Janet
People have told me I was a girl since childhood.....Often using less then polite terms and suggestions :P
Yeah, a lot of people did -- family of course 'cause I've been saying it since I was young and I tried to cut my privates off, too. Friends, weren't surprised at all.
well... my family new since I was very little. Something going on about me stealing my older sister's clothes ::). Mostly her tops and skirts but chosen to ignore it.
My closest friends were just waiting for me to come out to them. Actually, one of them beat me to the punch and finished my sentence for me, sense I was driving and needed to focus on driving. that was a funny day in its self.
Quote from: gothique11 on November 18, 2009, 07:22:07 PMI tried to cut my privates off, too
Woot, let's make a club!
most of my friends were not surprised, and more than one told me they were wondering when I would figure it out lol
There was this Mexican guy at work that looked me straight in face & started laughing, dead serious. There could be no other reason than 3yrs of hrt. I wasn't out to any at that point. I get him, sometimes you gotta laugh at the absurd. No offense to Mexican men, I've dated one.
I was called "gay" by many people growing up. Even when I tried to put up my masculine facade, those who knew me before told me that they could see right through it.
When I finally came out, my friends' parents unanimously "knew" I'd come out sometime, as either gay or transsexual - they had suspected it ever since they knew me.
I think the most affirming moment was when I came out to my mom. I was so frightened what she would think as she had caught me dressing as a young child and often corrected my gender-inappropriate (overtly feminine) behavior. When I came out to her, she hugged me and told me, "I always knew... I always knew. I will miss my son, but I always knew I had a daughter." I wish she were still alive; I miss her even more now.
Does it count that most people thought I was a guy unless family or school told them otherwise?
When I came out to the rest of the family at a dinner party my wife and I held. My sister in law just said, I've known that for years. Brother in law, we've known what? I was of course fully dressed to introduce them all to Cindy.
:laugh:
Cindy
my daughter has busted me with clear nail polish and once asked do i have a gay father lol my middle daughter is lesbian and wants to mary a girl shes been with since high school runs in the family here lol
jessica
Post Merge: November 19, 2009, 03:46:29 AM
wife however is religous zealot who will probably kill us all in the end...win some lose some
jessica
Pretty much everybody where I grew up knew I was "different" but back then, the 1950's, nobody knew what it was - not boy, not gay, but not "normal female" either. I doubt anybody was surprised when I disappeared in 1974 for SRS. A lot of people probably thought, "So THAT'S what it was!"
Yes of course! When people knew I was transitioning no one was surprised.
Heh, I played a lot of WoW back during the worst times of my GID. A new guy who joined our guild asked a friend of mine "Is <autumn's male character> a girl?" She answered "Ask her yourself." And for my birthday she sent me a horrible book about a school for cross dressing. When I came out to her she had a mixture of heavy laughter and huge apologies. It was funny.
Before I really started transitioning I met a girl in our social group and ended up spending the night snuggling up with her. She was saying there's something about me and after a while I told her the truth. And she laughed and went "I KNEW IT! My brain was telling me to treat you like a girl and it was driving me crazy. I KNEW I WAS RIGHT!" And then we went to breakfast and got "ladies" the whole time. It was nice.
Random friend of a friend who I ended up spending all night having a ridiculously down to earth conversation about life with told me he'd guessed I was trans because of my voice.
I had one doctor think I was FTM when she first saw me. And I saw my mother's physician assistant a few months ago - she walked in and said "You're not Malename. (Yes I am) OH! Oh good, I thought I'd gone into the wrong room again" [then I came out to her because I needed blood work] "Oh THANK YOU for telling me, I was so confused. I actually thought you were when I met you last year but I didn't want to say anything in front of your mother."
Of course.... the christian girl I fell hard for didn't work out well. Her family labeled me as gay or trans and banned me from her life.
Quote from: Autumn on November 19, 2009, 12:35:37 PM
Oh good, I thought I'd gone into the wrong room again
lol...again?
Thanks for the Wow reference, it brought back a fond Anarchy memory :)
Quote from: Becca on November 19, 2009, 01:48:46 PM
lol...again?
Thanks for the Wow reference, it brought back a fond Anarchy memory :)
Oh in that case she had gone into the wrong patient rooms a few times that week, really busy with swine flu outbreak (their clinic is in a poor, mostly illegal immigrant town.)
Bathrooms are a WHOLE nother matter...
i would tend to say that many people are suspicious but did not yet dare to bring it up directly. at least i get the feeling they know there is some thing different.
when people joking they bring the T word many times it mean it more than a random joke.
Post Merge: November 19, 2009, 02:59:16 PM
Quote from: interalia on November 18, 2009, 11:28:13 PM
I was called "gay" by many people growing up.
soo typical, it will be easier for me to count the number of people that did not call me gay "or other names like ->-bleeped-<-got" that those that did.
I found out when I came out to my mom that all my life she had thought I was a butch lesbian. Apparently it didn't dawn on her to ask me...maybe I'd not suffered in silence for so long. When she told my brother and dad it didn't surprise them from what I hear. Now I doubt any of them will ever treat me as a guy in which case I just keep distancing myself from them :/
I had 3brothers, but my next brother who I spent a lot of time with growing up always had suspicions, I always hated the rough, tumble and dirty games, he use to call me sissy and girly when he was annoyed.
He wasn't a bit surprised when I came out at 16, but my parents where but supported me, my Mam was just trill at gaining a daughter, I posted my story here a while back https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,20096.40.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,20096.40.html)
p
I know that a few knew something was up.
I was often treated a bit differently, even though no one really wanted to say much.
Funny actually.
My closer friends constantly joke around about me being ftm. Only one really kinda figured out that it's not as much of a joke as my life, but... Yeah I don't think most of 'em would be surprised.
the guys who sit in front of me in one of my classes are actually afraid of me. Actually, that's funny. Cause the teacher doesn't stop us from fighting in class (he encourages it, actually. ha)
When I (finally) came out to my photo teacher (who runs our school GSA), she was far from surprised.
Yeah. I suck at hiding, but i manage to look too feminine. Go figure.
(stupid boob things)
"You're not like all the other girls." - Nameless friend.
"You're like one of the guys." - Other nameless friend.
"You're too manly." - Mother.
I don't know if anyone suspects anything (except my mom, she seems to think I "want to be a guy" but it seldom comes up.) Since the people I know already think of me as a female, I'm pretty sure they just think I'm a dyke now.
I haven't transitioned yet, but my closest friends and family members have always thought of me as a guy in a girl's body prior to my telling them.
Most of them are pretty open-minded, so it's not a big deal.
Well, here's my story:
I don't drive. My eyesight is just bad enough that I shouldn't drive, so I rely on either public transportation or friends with cars. I took the bus out to the bar one night about two years pre-surgery (and a good six months before I started replacing my wardrobe), and because the public transportation around here sucks so bad that the buses don't run after 10pm on weekdays and not after 6pm on weekends (yet this is a college town, where nearly everybody drinks), I had a friend drive me home. He was driving a few others home, too, and all of us but the driving friend were drunk and being very silly.
At some point, the car conversation turned into talking about who had the bigger dick -- literally. Save the driver's girlfriend, I was the only female in the car, but then I loudly proclaimed "My penis is bigger than the Internet!"
The whole car then went silent, save for some nervous giggles from the driver's girlfriend, and the driver's eyebrows perked up in the rear-view mirror and he said "You know, if anybody else in this car said that, I'd find that odd. But since it was you, I can't say I'm surprised."
A few weeks later, I was on LiveJournal and having a really pissy day and decided that I *had to* start even the "dressing right" and "social cues" part of the transition process for my own sanity, so i made a poll asking my LJ friends which term they'd use to describe me -- their choices were "Girl, Boy, FTM Transsexual, Other". About Half picked "FTM" with most of the rest pretty evenly divided between the other three. One of the friends from the car ride clicked "other" and commented: "Well, you look like a girl, but when people get to know you, it's apparent that, hrmm... well, when most girls claim to be 'just one of the guys', they're more just annoying girls who fart and don't pick up after themselves. You're WAY more guy-like in personality, so you could say that and it wouldn't annoy me. :-)"
Also, my friend Aaron was fond of saying "R----'s not even bi-, but just talk to h-- long enough, and you'll see there's something queer upstairs."
Quote from: Kurzar on November 19, 2009, 07:34:15 PM
They are the bane of my existance >.<
I know, really.
Is there any way to
donate them to the girls who want 'em?.. by any chance? Please?
Quote from: Laura91 on November 18, 2009, 07:35:00 PMEveryone seems to think that this all is just a "phase" in the beginning.
I wonder how many people who didn't "grow up" to be "transgendered"
have ever heard this from a confidant, as opposed to those of us who
were fool enough to expose our inner most thoughts to someone. I believe
this was thought to be a "phase" because those who were told it, in the
past, were bullied into never expressing their Gender Disporia again.
I don't want to start the age-divide thing again, but I think that those of us who grew up in an earlier time were told it was a phase and might have believed it because there was little understanding of what this is. And for that matter, little opportunity to do anything about it.
My experience with people now is that most understand this is something inherent and not a "life-style choice". Or if they see at as a choice, they figure it's none of their business.
Years ago, people thought being gay was a phase or a choice. Now most people recognize that it as inherent. We as TSs aren't quite there yet in the public perception but we are getting there.
- Kate
Quote from: insanitylives on November 20, 2009, 05:49:15 AM
Is there any way to donate them
Yer being too charitable, hold out for a trade. ;)
Not many people have admitted to ever suspecting such a thing. I guess I did a good job of overmasculinizing myself.
One gal at work was the only person that was NOT surprised when I told her. I think it's because she noticed as I was crossdressing, my clear polish, long nails, long hair, earrings, women's flipflops, etc.
Quote from: heatherrose on November 20, 2009, 07:56:02 AM
I wonder how many people who didn't "grow up" to be "transgendered"
have ever heard this from a confidant, as opposed to those of us who
were fool enough to expose our inner most thoughts to someone. I believe
this was thought to be a "phase" because those who were told it, in the
past, were bullied into never expressing their Gender Disporia again.
The "just a phase" thing creates a lot of problems. I agree with you.
Another issue is that, for some people, it really is a phase, and they won't know until they spend time talking to TG people, soul-searching, researching, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with it being a phase.
But when someone tells you, "It's just a phase," you're automatically put on the defensive and forced to choose sides. And maybe you're not ready to choose sides. And maybe you'll never want to.
The whole situation of choosing sides presupposes some kind of fixed gender identity in accordance with the binary system, and that just doesn't apply to everyone.
Quote from: insanitylives on November 20, 2009, 05:49:15 AM
I know, really.
Is there any way to donate them to the girls who want 'em?.. by any chance? Please?
Yeah, I wish ftm's and mtf's could trade genitals. It would make everything so much easier.
Quote from: K8 on November 20, 2009, 08:48:21 AM
I don't want to start the age-divide thing again, but I think that those of us who grew up in an earlier time were told it was a phase and might have believed it because there was little understanding of what this is. And for that matter, little opportunity to do anything about it.
My experience with people now is that most understand this is something inherent and not a "life-style choice". Or if they see at as a choice, they figure it's none of their business.
Years ago, people thought being gay was a phase or a choice. Now most people recognize that it as inherent. We as TSs aren't quite there yet in the public perception but we are getting there.
- Kate
Well as far as I know the younger transitioners spend a phase thinking it's a phase. Because kids these days are allowed to follow these temporary urges (I don't know, probably more frequently than before) and then "grow out of them" all of the time. Therefore it's sometimes hard to tell what's real.
Quote from: Becca on November 20, 2009, 10:17:13 AM
Yer being too charitable, hold out for a trade. ;)
Good point, actually
Are you offering?
Ohhhhh how I wish we could just trade stuff
Quote from: Becca on November 20, 2009, 10:17:13 AM
Yer being too charitable, hold out for a trade. ;)
Maybe in the far east they would pay me to have them ground up as medicine?
Sold mine for appetizers at Applebee's. :icon_yikes:
Janet
:eusa_wall: :icon_blink:
:icon_blah: :icon_confused2:
:icon_headache: :icon_yikes: :eusa_sick:
:eusa_eh: :eusa_doh:
:icon_omfg: :eusa_hand:
Quote from: Alexmakenoise on November 20, 2009, 02:33:19 PM
The "just a phase" thing creates a lot of problems. I agree with you.
Another issue is that, for some people, it really is a phase, and they won't know until they spend time talking to TG people, soul-searching, researching, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with it being a phase.
But when someone tells you, "It's just a phase," you're automatically put on the defensive and forced to choose sides. And maybe you're not ready to choose sides. And maybe you'll never want to.
The whole situation of choosing sides presupposes some kind of fixed gender identity in accordance with the binary system, and that just doesn't apply to everyone.
Well-said. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people who are simply experimenting for a temporary period, or who have a more "gender-fluid" identity or preference of expression -- this is one of the primary reasons I simply cannot condone the transition of teenagers and advise very young adults to be cautios of their own expressed desires to transition at that age. As you say, many people will automatically go on the defensive and feel forced to "pick one" when they may not be ready or may simply be confused about themselves. There's no way to know for certain whose is "just a phase" or not, so young transitions can lead to all sorts of problems later on -- especially for FTM persons, who are too often given leniency toward physical transitioning, and just-too-often-enough don't realise until they've destroyed their voices with testosterone and mastectomised their breasts that they had felt "pressured" into transitioning. In the experiences of myself and several other people at my local TS/TG group, there are
way more "FTMTF" persons "transition back" to their natal sex than there are MTFTMs.
Quote from: Alexmakenoise on November 20, 2009, 02:33:19 PMYeah, I wish ftm's and mtf's could trade genitals. It would make everything so much easier.
Last I heard, there were experimental runs of that in perhaps Thailand(?), but the results proved that while MTF persons would get oestrogen production from donated ovaries, etc..., and FTM persons would produce testosterone from donated testicles, this production was only temporary due to the nature of the anti-rejection drugs. This is just something that I heard from one of the TS women at my local TS/TG group, and she hasn't sent me a link to an article, even though I asked her for it on FaceBook, so I'm not sure how true this is, but it makes sense.
YES.
Even got a comment about "now she can afford that sex change" when I was up on the podium getting my first National championship medal. Geez - if only the surgeries etc were coverable by the tiny cash prize given.
Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on November 20, 2009, 06:32:20 PMLast I heard, there were experimental runs of that in perhaps Thailand...
...MTF persons would get oestrogen production from donated ovaries...
Before the European societal pendulum swung from science as an artistic pursuit
to science used as a weapon in World War II, donated ovaries where implanted
into patients as part of the first documented sexual reassignment surgeries.
Quote from: Alex_C on November 24, 2009, 01:13:36 AM...my first National championship medal.
Congratulations Alex, good for you.
Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on November 19, 2009, 11:17:21 PM
Well, here's my story:
I don't drive. My eyesight is just bad enough that I shouldn't drive, so I rely on either public transportation or friends with cars. I took the bus out to the bar one night about two years pre-surgery (and a good six months before I started replacing my wardrobe), and because the public transportation around here sucks so bad that the buses don't run after 10pm on weekdays and not after 6pm on weekends (yet this is a college town, where nearly everybody drinks), I had a friend drive me home. He was driving a few others home, too, and all of us but the driving friend were drunk and being very silly.
At some point, the car conversation turned into talking about who had the bigger dick -- literally. Save the driver's girlfriend, I was the only female in the car, but then I loudly proclaimed "My penis is bigger than the Internet!"
The whole car then went silent, save for some nervous giggles from the driver's girlfriend, and the driver's eyebrows perked up in the rear-view mirror and he said "You know, if anybody else in this car said that, I'd find that odd. But since it was you, I can't say I'm surprised."
A few weeks later, I was on LiveJournal and having a really pissy day and decided that I *had to* start even the "dressing right" and "social cues" part of the transition process for my own sanity, so i made a poll asking my LJ friends which term they'd use to describe me -- their choices were "Girl, Boy, FTM Transsexual, Other". About Half picked "FTM" with most of the rest pretty evenly divided between the other three. One of the friends from the car ride clicked "other" and commented: "Well, you look like a girl, but when people get to know you, it's apparent that, hrmm... well, when most girls claim to be 'just one of the guys', they're more just annoying girls who fart and don't pick up after themselves. You're WAY more guy-like in personality, so you could say that and it wouldn't annoy me. :-)"
Also, my friend Aaron was fond of saying "R----'s not even bi-, but just talk to h-- long enough, and you'll see there's something queer upstairs."
Also just remembered something else:
I met my friend Esther on the Internet ages ago on this e-mail list for a radio show in the L.A. area that we both liked. It was a Goth thing, so there were at least slightly more women than men on the list, and it was one of the first on-line communities I'd seen where people were more likely to be assumed female than otherwise.
Still, Esther apparently assumed I was a gay man for the longest time, even with my old name attached to my old e-mail address. She still didn't completely believe I was "female" until we finally met up, and even then she said "OK, this may be, but it seriously wouldn't surprise me if you turned out like A---- [a trans woman lesbian on the same e-mail list], only, you know, for guys."
Then there's the story of my high school prom. Long story short (and it is a long, embarrassing story), the "goth clique" at the small-town high school I went to consisted of me and four or five guys, depending on the semester -- these would be Robin, Adam, Big Gay Adam, Brendt, and sometimes Tad (Tad was also seriously the only Black kid at our school). Robin and Adam are the important ones here. So, I get to prom, in a dress, so unfashionably early that the prom committee asks me and the date my step-mother arranged for me to help finish setting up. Robin is the first of my friends to show up, wherein he immediately spies me from across the room, darts right over toward me and The Villiage Idiot (who was twenty-one and still a senior -- and no, not for medical or psychological reasons).
"
What are you wearing?" says Robin.
I looked down and sarcastically feign surprise. "Oh my gawd, Robin! It's a dress!"
"I can see that, but why are
you wearing one?"
"Well, see Robin... I'm gonna tell you like Dr. Cavanaugh told my father -- I'm a
girl."
"No! No, you're not! You have a nice rack, I'll give you that, but that don't make you a girl -- not where it matters."
Then Villiage Idiot butts in, "Well, I think you're
all woman," as he makes a move for my hand, which I smacked away.
"See?" Robin shouts as his date finally caught up with him. "You've fooled him, but you can't fool me. I actually
know you."
Fast forward several hours. Robin's "date" and her boyfriend have been ejected from prom due to their high school sadistic shenanigans at my friend's expense. Adam's girlfriend and Villiage Idiot disappeared maybe an hour before prom officially ended. Big Gay Adam and Brendt had called Big Gay Adam's aunt in Ferndale to threaten the school with a lawsuit if the two didn't get to come together. Needless to say, if I wrote a film script about the evening, I'd have one hell of a teen comedy I'd be able to retire on if I negotiated the contract right. So we did what any other group is sub-rural outcast teens would do -- we broke into the city park to fantasise about what we were all going to do after graduation the next year, most of which relied on getting
out pf that town. At some point, Robin and I started making out cos... hell if I know, there was nothing better to do. Adam, who got the full story of what Robin said, was there chiding us the whole time saying "So, Robin? Does this make you gay? Bi? Well you said yourself that R-----'s not really a girl. Oh, I figured that out in eighth grade, and yeah, we dated briefly last year, but I'll also admit I'm bi. You can't hide your man-=lust, Robin!"
Quote from: heatherrose on November 24, 2009, 02:16:19 AMBefore the European societal pendulum swung from science as an artistic pursuit
to science used as a weapon in World War II, donated ovaries where implanted
into patients as part of the first documented sexual reassignment surgeries.
Source on that? I know Lili Elbe died from her transplant operation to give her uterus and ovaries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lili_Elbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lili_Elbe)
Uhh, what? And it's fart *out loud* that matters, nothing like a good butt solo.
Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on November 20, 2009, 06:32:20 PM
Well-said. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people who are simply experimenting for a temporary period, or who have a more "gender-fluid" identity or preference of expression -- this is one of the primary reasons I simply cannot condone the transition of teenagers and advise very young adults to be cautios of their own expressed desires to transition at that age.
Sorry to jump in late to this - but isn't this a classic case of the fact that you have to treat the patient and not a set of rules. This is a terribly compex area and I don't want to present my own case as any more definitive than yours. But I do think that it is very dangerous to make too many pre- judgements.
If anyone, had blocked my transition on the grounds of age I promise you that they probably would have, indirectly, killed me. As it is I am now nearly fifty, over thirty years past transition and coming on for 30 years post-op with no regrets other than a lasting and burning hatred of the doctor who wouldn't allow me hormones until I was over 18, and wouldn't allow SRS until I was 21. If I met him today I probably would still swing for him!
Because he was so wrong abut me and he couldn't see beyond his own prejudice. I don't give a stuff about the fact that for someone else it would have been wrong. I want someone to treat me, not them, and for me it wasn't wrong.
What was wrong was being made to endure five years of torture and abuse. The only result was that, because of the things which I then did to cope with my inderterminate state other innocent people got sucked into the pain needlessly. As it was I did try to commit suicide. I did get inovolved with lovers who were then deeply hurt. All because one person had decided that early transition and early SRS was ALWAYS wrong.
I really think we do have to get beyond our own experiences and prejudices and learn to treat each person as an individual, to judge each case on it's merits. Because we aren't all the same, and what is right for one will terribly cruel and a disaster for another. I also agree that MTF and FTM transition is not the same, so different criteria are needed here again.
But to answer the original question in the thread, my family and I had known for certain I was a girl ever since I was about five years old. Which is how in 1977, aged 17, I came to be having that particular fight with John Randall.
Someone who is sure of their gender, and who always has been, but simply has the wrong set of bodily clothing, is different from someone who has evident internal confusions. The two need different treatment approaches, that much should be obvious.
Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on November 24, 2009, 02:39:45 AMSource on that?
Sexual Metamorphosis:
An Anthology of Transsexual Memoirs
Edited by Jonathan Ames
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 24, 2009, 03:08:41 AMBecause he was so wrong abut me and he couldn't see beyond his own prejudice. I don't give a stuff about the fact that for someone else it would have been wrong. I want someone to treat me, not them, and for me it wasn't wrong.
It likely wasn't "prejudice", as you seem to believe after all these years. You say one thing, but how is a doctor supposed to prove you're right? Do you realise how serious the fear of malpractice was taken? The fact that he was allowing your HRT regime and GRS for some-one as young as you were at the time that he did is evidence enough to me that he was sympathetic enough, but still might have feared malpractice over a teenage whim -- or feared the law. While I'm sure you've had your hardships, the story you give tells me that you're simply not as persecuted as you fancy yourself. HRT at eighteen and GRS at twenty-one is *young* -- and is far better than some people who are equally "sure of themselves" are allowed. You were
very lucky, in reality.
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 24, 2009, 03:08:41 AMSomeone who is sure of their gender, and who always has been, but simply has the wrong set of bodily clothing, is different from someone who has evident internal confusions. The two need different treatment approaches, that much should be obvious.
And what about those who are "so sure of themselves" only to change their minds in their mid-twenties or so? Whether you choose to admit it or not, such people happen, and since many of these changes are irreversible, it's only sensible that there be a certain litmus test in place.
Quote from: heatherrose on November 24, 2009, 05:26:00 AM
Sexual Metamorphosis:
An Anthology of Transsexual Memoirs
Edited by Jonathan Ames
Jonathan Ames is a novelist and comedic writer. His Masters from Princeton is in "Fine Arts of Fiction". While I've no reason to doubt that he's treated the subject with sensitivity, I have doubts as to how much is "memoir anthology" and how much is his own fabrication.
Sources from the medical community? I'd welcome it if you had something different from the scores of
unsuccessful attempts of gonadal implantation for TS persons I've sourced.
And what about those who are "so sure of themselves" only to change their minds in their mid-twenties or so? Whether you choose to admit it or not, such people happen, and since many of these changes are irreversible, it's only sensible that there be a certain litmus test in place.
It's just welfare for the doctors and medical industry. An informed consent model is much more practical, and would lower the overall cost.
See, all the doctors in the world are not going to know what's going to happen in the future, when you're in your 20s, or further down the line.
Moreover, SRS, like other things can be a lifesaving deal, or a huge mistake. That the risk. But that risk exists with other things. Lots of people find a salvation of sorts in sports, others waste a critical part of their lives pursuing something that will not have the desired end, and still other have life-time injuries. Should we prevent sports?
Quote from: tekla on November 24, 2009, 03:12:20 PMAnd what about those who are "so sure of themselves" only to change their minds in their mid-twenties or so? Whether you choose to admit it or not, such people happen, and since many of these changes are irreversible, it's only sensible that there be a certain litmus test in place.
It's just welfare for the doctors and medical industry. An informed consent model is much more practical, and would lower the overall cost.
Yes, and lawyers quite frequently manage to get patients and sometimes even next-of-kin healthy settlements from a malpractice suit
despite "informed consent" waivers signed. I don't think you actually have a thourough understanding of how these things tend to work out.
Quote from: tekla on November 24, 2009, 03:12:20 PMSee, all the doctors in the world are not going to know what's going to happen in the future, when you're in your 20s, or further down the line.
Moreover, SRS, like other things can be a lifesaving deal, or a huge mistake. That the risk. But that risk exists with other things. Lots of people find a salvation of sorts in sports, others waste a critical part of their lives pursuing something that will not have the desired end, and still other have life-time injuries. Should we prevent sports?
Nice slippery slope with a dash of appeal to ridicule thrown in, there (probably even a Straw Man constructed?) -- you know for a fact I've not advocated "preventing" anything. If you can argue with what I'm saying using sound logic, I'll be more than happy to engage you, but if you're just going to resort to fallacies to
create the illusion that your arguments
might have good footing, then I'm done with you.
Post Merge: November 24, 2009, 02:15:13 PM
Quote from: heatherrose on November 24, 2009, 05:26:00 AMSexual Metamorphosis:
An Anthology of Transsexual Memoirs
Edited by Jonathan Ames
Also, the only "pre-WWII" TS cases this book sources are Lili Elbe -- who never wrote a memoir, the book about her which
Sexual Metamorphosis sources was written in 1933, two years after her death in 1931. The cause of Elbe's death was the rejection of her implanted uterus and ovaries -- hers was the first such publicised operation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_%28male-to-female%29#History (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_%28male-to-female%29#History)
...considering that this was only a scant few years "pre-WWII", Lili Elbe is pretty far from an example of an alleged "widespread" practise of implanting female gonadal organs into a MTF woman.
Furthermore,
Sexual Metamorphosis also contains an excerpt of Richard von Krafft-Ebing's 1886
Psychopathia Sexualis' first-person narrative of one of von-Ebing's cases as a psychiatrist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Krafft-Ebing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_von_Krafft-Ebing)
Von Krafft-Ebing, while impressive that
Psychopathia Sexualis not only touches but details female-to-male transsexuality, he's a Freudian psychiatrist, and in all honesty, Freud is now well-known to have fabricated some of his "cases" (even those he provided first-person narratives for) to "prove" his hypotheses. von Krafft-Ebing is a contemporary of Freud's and may have even met him. Furthermore, even ignoring this, von Krafft-Ebing's excerpt from
Psychopathia Sexualis simply
does not detail a case where organs were implanted into anybody. How, therefore, these
two "pre-WWII" cases --one lacking organ implantation completely, and one case who died as a result of her organ implantation-- make
Sexual Metamorphosis an adequate "source" for this assertion is preposterous.
The next earliest case after Elbe, in
Sexual Metamorphosis, is the excerpted autobiography of Christine Joprgensen -- whose operations were performed in the 1950s, long after WWII ended. Jorgensen never hade an implanted uterus and ovaries -- I've owned an early "pulp" edition and later (1981) edition of her autobiography, and read them in totality.
There has never been a long enough history of
successful TS organ implantations, "pre-WWII" or otherwise. There have been great strides to make such operations more likely for success, but as it is, claiming that it has ever even been successful enough to enable motherhood of TS women or at the very least, replace HRT is in the realm of fantasy. These operations have potential for greater future success, possibly even in our lifetimes, but it's just never happened before because the medical communities just hadn't happened upon the proper anti-rejection methods and medications before.
I don't see where you're so bought into the medical model that you think its OK to force it on others. Why not let adults make adult decisions for themselves? Lawsuits, but of course, there is a pretty much ironclad way around that too. It's call, "binding arbitration agreements". And I have a better chance of having a baby with Madonna than in a US court breaking a contract for binding arbitration. And the worthless relatives who think they can make a quick buck off your death are pretty much stopped by such contracts. But you knew that. So such a strawman argument is not working. The law always provides a way around the law, after all.
All I was trying to point out in the sports analogy is that some things can be good or bad, and most of the time you're only going to know in the long run. Lots of stuff, not just SRS/HRT is like that. Lots of the guys (and back then it was only guys) who I started work with have done very well. They have had a career they loved, made money, supported their family, bought houses, train cars (I know two guys in my union who own train cars) - all that stuff. Others wound up in rehab, drug clinics, and in more than one case dead. There were too many demons laying around on tables that were too easy to pick up, and all but impossible to put down. Had they not done this, had they gone out and got some normal job, I bet none of that would have happened to them. The easy access didn't exist anywhere else. So, what do you tell someone, do it or not? Good chance they might do well, even very well, pretty good odds they might well end up in the Betty Ford Clinic or standing around in some crappy church basement for the rest of their life saying "Hi, I'm Bob and I'm a junkie." Is it worth the risk?
You pay your money and you take your chances.
Well I think that no outside person can assess that risk for you. You pay your money and take your chances. Dale Earnhardt knew that driving a car at 200+ MPH was dangerous, and that if he hit the wall he might regret it. Or just be dead - which is what happened. Should someone have stopped him just because he might have ended up as he did? Hell, it didn't even look all that bad, but dead is dead.
He paid the money, took the chance, and won a lot, then lost big time. So it goes.
Everyone who thinks is going to have moments of regret. That's no reason to stop them, or put a bunch of medical garbage (and steep payments) in the way.
So, I think that the informed consent model works out better for most people. Those who think, or want, to see a therapist can do so, those that are not interested in that route don't have to waste their money or time, or the therapist's time. Moreover, that's not just me, but several clinics have been moving toward that kind of model for some time.
Was any part of my statement untrue. Were there surgeries,
before World War II, in Europe, were donated ovaries implanted
into patients seeking to change their sex? You asked for my source,
I gave you my source. Like most everything else that I have ever had
in my life, I no longer have the book but I know I read that several
Reassignment Surgeries were performed, considered "successful" or not,
in Europe prior to World War II. One in particular, not that of the artist Lili
Elbe, was the instance of an individual who lived out the rest of her days
working as a custodian in the same hospital where the surgery was performed.
Quote from: tekla on November 25, 2009, 02:09:51 AM
I don't see where you're so bought into the medical model that you think its OK to force it on others. Why not let adults make adult decisions for themselves?
That would be a great idea if the comment you refer to was not about
letting teens make adult decisions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,68325.msg462162.html#msg462162).
Since you refuse to follow the thread but instead build straw-man arguments that I never mentioned, I have nothing more to say to you. Have a fun time talking circular reasoning around yourself.
Post Merge: November 25, 2009, 02:34:13 AM
Quote from: heatherrose on November 25, 2009, 03:06:55 AMYou asked for my source, I gave you my source.
Your "source" only further confirmed what I had previously said (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,68325.msg461966.html#msg461966) -- Lili Elbe's surgery to implant uterus and ovaries was ultimately unsuccessful. Your previous statement (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,68325.msg461961.html#msg461961) also carried implications that implanting utera and ovaries into TS women was relatively routine and successful -- you have yet to provide a source for such an implication.
Quote from: heatherrose on November 25, 2009, 03:06:55 AMI read that several Reassignment Surgeries were performed, considered "successful" or not, in Europe prior to World War II. One in particular, not that of the artist Lili Elbe, was the instance of an individual who lived out the rest of her days working as a custodian in the same hospital where the surgery was performed.
"Reassignment surgeries" in the current state of vaginoplasty? Yes, I've never denied that. In fact, even Lili Elbe's vaginoplasty was successful -- it was the implantation of a urteus and ovaries that was a failure.
"Reassignment surgeries" in the sense of implanting a uterus and ovaries into TS women? I will have to ask you
again for your source.
Where did I say that uterus's were being transplanted?
Also I did not say whether the implantation of ovaries was successful or not.
Undoubtedly, any transplantation performed at that time would be rejected.
As a 'gifted' student as the web links say, I don't think it makes much difference to you or me that they can't separate the remarks of the two of us honey, smarter people are just that. We ought to best accept it.
Quote from: tekla on November 25, 2009, 03:52:54 AM
As a 'gifted' student as the web links say, I don't think it makes much difference to you or me that they can't separate the remarks of the two of us honey, smarter people are just that. We ought to best accept it.
That doesn't negate the fact that you were responding to a point totally different from the one you've since been asserting. Stop trying to obfuscate what you said.
Nice try. Now do please stop obsessing over me. You're making me with this forum had an "ignore user" feature.
Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on November 24, 2009, 02:36:18 PM
It likely wasn't "prejudice", as you seem to believe after all these years. You say one thing, but how is a doctor supposed to prove you're right? Do you realise how serious the fear of malpractice was taken? The fact that he was allowing your HRT regime and GRS for some-one as young as you were at the time that he did is evidence enough to me that he was sympathetic enough, but still might have feared malpractice over a teenage whim -- or feared the law. While I'm sure you've had your hardships, the story you give tells me that you're simply not as persecuted as you fancy yourself. HRT at eighteen and GRS at twenty-one is *young* -- and is far better than some people who are equally "sure of themselves" are allowed. You were very lucky, in reality.
Yes I realise that of course but it doesn't alter the fact that I resent the lost time! I'm sorry but it was my life to screw up if I wanted to! I had the full support of my entire family. I didn't ask for his advice and as this is considered
elective surgery, or at least it is in the UK, that is non essential surgery that the patient opts for, the question of malpractice doesn't really apply because the doctor should not be advising but merely acting on the patients request.
At least to my mind that is how it should work because I didn't go for advice. I went like a customer to a store who doesn't want the shop assistant to advise them but instead hopes that they will simply provide the goods requested.
I know that this approach wouldn't suit everyone - but with an IQ of 150 and a good scientific education I think it was fairly obvious, even back then, that I knew my own mind. A fact which I have subsequently proved by living successfully and happily ever since. Finally I repeat that I had my families full support (very unusual in the 1970's) which should have told him something.
That is what I mean about treating people as individuals - I know that what you say may be right for many - but there are always exceptions... and all I really said was that it makes no sense to treat a set of rules, you have to look at the patient and try to suss them out a bit.
Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on November 24, 2009, 02:36:18 PM
And what about those who are "so sure of themselves" only to change their minds in their mid-twenties or so? Whether you choose to admit it or not, such people happen, and since many of these changes are irreversible, it's only sensible that there be a certain litmus test in place.
Yes - but as I say, and this may sound callous, but as a paying patient I don't really care about all that - as a patient I am ONLY really interested in my treatment, the fact that someone else makes a mistake may be very sad for them, but ultimately as no one forces them onto that operating table, this is, as I said, something people must choose. In fact I would go further. I personally do not feel that anyone should take it upon themselves to advise someone over SRS either for or against. It's a decision that each individual should have to make for themsleves. That way no one else gets blamed either way.
My approach to medicine always has been that I am the customer and the doctor is the servant. I call the shots not them, and I'm always prepared to accept the consequences and indeminfy them accordingly. In fact on several occasions I have done precisely that. These days I only agree to be treated by doctors willing to work within that broad framework.
My approach wouldn't suit everyone - but it works well enough for me. All I am saying is that we are all different and until someone develops a proper diagnostic criteria for this condition, allong the lines of brain scans and or DNA tests or whatever, a one size fits all approach simply won't wash for many of us.
Of course the final irony was that two decades later, after some tests for an unexplained medical problem, it was discovered after extensive hospital specialist investigations, that I had actually been technically intersexed all along (PAIS) - and of course as things stood in the UK in the 1970's if that had been known at the time then I probably wouldn't have had to go through all that rigmarole at all.
But lets agree to differ - It seems that we are unlikely to ever really agree but I have no wish argue either. Life is too short. :)
Oh gosh yes. My younger brother, who is a year younger than I am would always accuse me of being very girlish. Maybe it was because I wasn't interested in playing with trucks or toy guns or getting dirty, as most boys were. Also, nearly all of my childhood friends were girls. As we grew up together, he would always make comments on my femininity. Needless to say, he was not surprised when I broke the news about transitioning.
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 25, 2009, 03:20:38 PMI know that this approach wouldn't suit everyone - but with an IQ of 150 and a good scientific education I think it was fairly obvious, even back then, that I knew my own mind.
With an IQ of 157 and astoundingly self-educated in the humanities, I was a Libertarian at sixteen, even registered with that party at eighteen -- which I pulled a complete 180 on by twenty-three. I "knew my own mind" then, and I know it to be wiser, now. Two different things, yes, but the fact remains that people can, and often do, change -- especially young people. It can be proven scientifically that there is no discernable developmental difference between a fifteen-year-old and a thirty-year-old, but all too often the same person at those two ages will hold slightly or even wildly different opinions, beliefs, and convictions due to gaining knowledge and experiences.
You cannot trust the judgement of a typical teen because the typical adolescent lacks experience and knowledge in certain areas and, often enough, only two or three years can make a huge difference in a teen's point of view. You may very well have been that one teenager out of ten thousand who actually knew who they were -- but kids fool their parents all the time, and how is some doctor to know that you, at sixteen, were some exceptional case? Your apparent narcissism worries me.
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 25, 2009, 03:20:38 PMOf course the final irony was that two decades later, after some tests for an unexplained medical problem, it was discovered after extensive hospital specialist investigations, that I had actually been technically intersexed all along (PAIS) - and of course as things stood in the UK in the 1970's if that had been known at the time then I probably wouldn't have had to go through all that rigmarole at all.
Possibly perhaps.
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 25, 2009, 03:20:38 PMBut lets agree to differ - It seems that we are unlikely to ever really agree but I have no wish argue either. Life is too short. :)
I can agree to that. :)
Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on November 25, 2009, 04:03:18 PM
Your apparent narcissism worries me.
Touché! It's a fair cop - I'll come quietly ;) though I'm not really that much in love with myself, I was just trying to make my point about individuality and perhaps slightly over egging it! :D
But, to be honest, I can also see the logic in what you say even if I don't entirely agree. So I'm very happy to let it rest with you.
Quote from: rejennyrated on November 26, 2009, 03:47:31 AMTouché! It's a fair cop - I'll come quietly ;) though I'm not really that much in love with myself, I was just trying to make my point about individuality and perhaps slightly over egging it! :D
But, to be honest, I can also see the logic in what you say even if I don't entirely agree. So I'm very happy to let it rest with you.
Well, I can definitely appreciate an argument with somebody on the Internet who doesn't take it too personally. ;)
Occasionally when I was younger pepole would accuse me of begin a girl mannerisms and androgyny and what not sadly puberty put a stop to most of that.
I went to a friends house at one point an my friends mother flatly refused to believe I was a boy. She described me perfectly but was insistent even to my friend that I was a girl. I was quietly flattered. And because I'm bashful when complimented anyway, my response was construed as embarrassment.
Other cases have resulted in more direct accusations about whether I have gender issues.
Once was from an ex-girlfriend I denied it at the time and lied thus, at the time the relationship was fine and I didn't want to potentially endanger it by worrying her with this fact. the body dysphora did infact get in the way and contributed to ending the relationship.
Another time was from my best friend who I've known since childhood, he's not really very empathic so I'm not that surprised it took him like 10 years to notice, I did admit to him partly because there is the security there that if he acts like an ass with it I can always wreck his life with equally devastating confided information.
He still responds very inappropriately and gets the wrong idea alot of the time with said knowledge, But that's a different story.
I also got a similar question from my sister... To which I responded ambiguously but was ultimately a "yes"
Her reactions to me have changed alittle she is sympathetic, but things are always kinda strange with her because despite having near identical life experiences our personalities and behaviours are near polar opposites. So I think it confuses her how she should react to such knowledge.
Never had any such insinuation from my parents however. I rarely see my dad but year my mum certainly expects me to be a "man" or whatever that's supposed to be and I find myself compelled to act to her expectation. I general I just don't want to let pepole down and that's what's preventing me moving forward.