As a person who transitioned, lived over a year RLT, and then re-transitioned, I've been taking the news of Mike Penner/Christine Daniels' suicide particularly hard. I know there are others with similar experiences of de/re-transitioning, yet it isn't something that gets talked about much here. I'm starting this thread for that purpose.
Who else has re-transitioned? Reasons for doing so? Considering transition again? Other thoughts?
Z
I did, sort of, about 25 years ago. There was nothing that I could find about transitioning and I did not have a job. I would have given my soul to transition, but alas I could not because of my circumstances.
Which is why I get upset when the younger ones go after us late transitioners. I de-transitioned because of others. I also tried the release but it only ended in a trip to the nut house.
It is sad that society can not just let us be us. What is so f-ing hard about that. How many must die for us to be allowed to transition.
I am sorry but I am in one of those moods and I just want to be allowed to be ME.
Yet another name for next years list. :( :( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Janet
Interelia was someone that transitioned and retransitioned and then found they went back too far and struggled. I think they would have some interesting things to say.
I saw a doco on people that 'untransitioned' in Britain. One guy lived as a girl, had hormone therapy and decided that it was not them and went back to living as a guy - had a breast reduction. But the way that they still talked about womens clothing made me think that they will find they had made a mistake.
Another person had a sex change and had a wonderful supportive partner. But their partner died leaving them lost. They felt their sex change was a mistake and they tried going back to being a guy and could not stand it. They felt stuck in limbo.
Anyway I think my point is maybe some people would be happier in the middle, if only their was a place for them in the grey? You might keep swinging between male and female only to find neither is home..I'm not saying that is everyone but it might be a possibility for some.
Post Merge: November 29, 2009, 08:17:51 PM
Maybe if people did not think there was only one end point to transitioning ...
/me huggles Janet Lynn
I'm (sorta) cross-posting this from a staff forum in search for neutral input and ideas/refs.
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Detransitioning (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Detransitioning)
While it's easy to type about the medical aspect of de/re-transition, the personal reasons, the deeper issues surrounding it are a bit harder to simply think of...
because I *can't* just say something like "gender issues" without subconsciously saying why *I* made a choice to do whatever, such as go from female identified to straight androgyne.
(which in my case, was acknowledging that in order to be more true to myself, I overshot the real me and attempted to be who I wasn't by way of overdoing the female aspects in an attempt to compensate for years of living a lie as "male")
Thanks Hon. I am so tired of losing another one, because of the BS that so many think that they have the right to KILL US! Ether by pressure or by action.
Janet
Quote from: Nicky on November 29, 2009, 08:11:49 PM
Anyway I think my point is maybe some people would be happier in the middle, if only their was a place for them in the grey? You might keep swinging between male and female only to find neither is home..I'm not saying that is everyone but it might be a possibility for some.
I believe we need more education toward societal acceptance for people in the middle or outside the binary. I made a choice after RLT to live outside the binary in my own gender space, but it isn't acknowledged by others except some people close to me, and that can make life challenging at times. I sometimes think it would be much easier to be one or the other, in terms of dealing w the world, but that isn't me. But it doesn't make it any easier.
Janet, yes, I'm so tired of adding names to our list!
Z
Let's not forget that Renée Richards went on HRT initially, then detransitioned and had a mastectomy.
There are more cautionary tales at A Warning for Those Considering SRS (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html)
Quote from: Flan on November 29, 2009, 08:18:04 PM
/me huggles Janet Lynn
I'm (sorta) cross-posting this from a staff forum in search for neutral input and ideas/refs.
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Detransitioning (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Detransitioning)
While it's easy to type about the medical aspect of de/re-transition, the personal reasons, the deeper issues surrounding it are a bit harder to simply think of...
because I *can't* just say something like "gender issues" without subconsciously saying why *I* made a choice to do whatever, such as go from female identified to straight androgyne.
(which in my case, was acknowledging that in order to be more true to myself, I overshot the real me and attempted to be who I wasn't by way of overdoing the female aspects in an attempt to compensate for years of living a lie as "male")
I have been very careful not to try to overshoot in my journey. It's the classic mistake people make.
I recently discovered that I am not sexually submissive like I thought I was for some time. In fact, this past week, I whipped a couple of guys with a belt and thoroughly enjoyed it. Expressing submission and softness and that sort of behavior was a part of me overcompensating for being 'male' and trying to be more feminine. Now that I am distinctly much more feminine, I feel no pressing need to over-express that behavior, and in fact, sometimes resent people believing that helpless is default.
I certainly never did strength training or worked out when I was a guy, but I find a great interest in becoming stronger and more fit (i'm already healthy, but I could go for a bowflex body haha) and capable and reliant on myself... as people around me expect less of that from me. Of course, before, if i worked out, I'd put on muscle and lose what little femininity I had, so I felt unable to do that even when I wanted to.
As I react to peoples' changing perceptions and treatments of me, socially, physically, sexually, emotionally - I am building a much better perspective of the true differences between life as a man and life as a woman. And I find myself incredulous to things that men have that I never recognized or appreciated (or found advantageous) that give me pause to think about. But I can't imagine going back to male. I mean, where I am now, happy and at peace, I do not see myself remaining if I became male again.
Every person is different though. My words pass no judgment on anyone - and honestly, I hope that i never find myself needing to consider detransition, as I cannot imagine a more difficult decision.
Quote from: Renate on November 29, 2009, 10:54:24 PM
Let's not forget that Renée Richards went on HRT initially, then detransitioned and had a mastectomy.
There are more cautionary tales at A Warning for Those Considering SRS (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html)
I remember this article. The story of Samantha Kane always blew my mind. Just that case alone shows why therapists and the SOC is a good idea.
Thanks for the nod Nicky.
Quote from: Zythyra on November 29, 2009, 07:43:24 PM
Who else has re-transitioned? Reasons for doing so? Considering transition again? Other thoughts?
I have de-transitioned. De-transitioning was about finding a proper balance. Living as a girl was sincerely wonderful, but it came with so many strings. I felt like I left one box that I hated (being male) for another box destined to grind on me (being female). I felt like even though I was living successfully as a female, I couldn't be completely honest with others, even those whom I wanted to be close with -as being honest with them meant being honest about my past. Anything less than full disclosure for me would leave me feeling inauthentic, and I value authenticity in my relationships far too much to leave big holes in them. Living as a girl was wonderful, but the cost to my relationships was too high.
I started wondering if I really needed to go to all the trouble of complete transition if my real self fit somewhere in between. I mean, don't get me wrong, the idea of being a girl, even one that others know is transsexual is appealing, but ultimately has higher emotional, social, and we musn't forget financial cost than learning to be a male who people know is transsexual. I realized my problem wasn't as much my sex (though I still have a degree of body dysmorphia) but the societal expectations of my sex. Frankly, I have always acted feminine and had feminine interests, was attracted to males, and abhorred being put into the "male" box. I realized the only way to be happy was to shrug off that box and not put myself into another one.
It has taken a lot of weights and measures though. I have to balance being true to myself and my desire to not be regarded in the male role with the problems that come from living outside the binary. There have been times I've gone too far in the male box direction since then - usually to meet society's expectations in some way or to maintain employment - but I notice the GID creep back and so need to balance it again.
So, would I transition again - realistically no. Would I LIKE to? Yes, but my idea of transition would need to not include the other costs - something that is a fantasy. In the end I imagine I'll be happier being "me" regardless of my external sex, but I have accepted that that happiness is not without sacrifice - the sacrifice of complete transition.
What a fascinating topic and interesting and thought provoking replies. It made me realise just how lucky we are when we have found a comfortable place to exist on the sex and gender spectrum.
My first thought was that I hadn't de- or re- tansitioned and that I couldn't imagine ever doing so, maybe because a while ago a thorough medical investigation, for an unxepected problem, revealed that I had actually had an intersex condition all along, so it now seems neither sex would have beeen 100% right.
But then I thought a bit more and realised that actually all through my rather unusual childhood I was constantly transitioning, de-transitioning and re-transitioning. I always tell people that I grew up as "an almost girl" - the almost bit covers the days and/or hours when, for one reason or another, I had to conform to outward biology because of social obligation. (Remember I grew up in the 1960's so it was a major coup when I managed to get my rather liberal and experimental school to allow me to wear a kilt (a skirt to me) as part of my uniform.)
Then there was the period between 1979 and 1984 when I had fallen out big time with John Randall (my original gender psychiatrist) who wanted me to "try being a male properly" because his take on it was that in my childhood it had all been made to easy for me by my rather over sympathetic mother. During those five years I did live almost as a normal male, although in protest I also stopped going to see Randall.
Finally in 1983/4 the point of no return was reached where I transitioned back to female properly. But the thing is, in my case I almost feel like I didn't really transition. Instead I kind of found a compromise which worked for me, one which did involve SRS.
I won't re-de-transition now because I'm now comfortable with my physical body and my perception is that, as a woman, I can present how the heck I like. I don't have to be girly girly... but I can be, or I could even wear a suit and tie if I wanted to. So I can't really see the point I guess. Besides being female has become like a comfortable old suit of clothes that I don't really have to think about. I just am.
But is interesting to take this topic out, give it a long hard look and in the process realise just how many times even I myself crossed that line without realising it whilst maturing.
I think I understan those who choose not to transition a bit better now and I think maybe I'm going to be less flippant from now on when someone asks me how I decided to undergo SRS. So thank you to everyone for your fascintating insights. I look forward to reading more. :)
Don't forget Michael/Michele Burke! Religion had a part in his detransition and it caused severe depression. I say 'his' because he is male again. Does anyone know what happened to him?
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2007-10-11/news/->-bleeped-<--regret/ (http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2007-10-11/news/-%3E-bleeped-%3C--regret/)
I transitioned after being on HRT for a very short time. My body loved the change in hormones and exploded with femme curves. I eventually could not pass for male and transitioned. Things went to hell and I detransitioned.
Why:
1) No support from work. I worked for a big box retailer and the management did not even tell the employees that I was transitioning. Talk about a big first day on the job! I was the center of everyone's attention and EVERYONE had to come and check me out. I was also sexually harassed on the job. They fired the employee but did not ban him from the store so he would come in and call me all sorts of names. Also had a customer masturbate while watching me work and ended up being escorted by a good guy in loss prevention whenever I left the store for awhile.
2) Threats. All kinds. Fun stuff.
3) An endoc that was 2 hours away who did not believe in blood work and was more concerned about being paid than my welfare. Local good endoc (who I now see) had a massive wait list at the time AND was not covered by my insurance.
4) Money. I was working retail making all of $11/hour. I barely had enough to eat each month let alone do anything else like go to doctors and get hormones.
5) Crumbling support. I do not trust others that much now and was even worse about it back then. My therapist, the only one I had come to respect back then, was retiring and between the crappy endoc, money issues, and a stalled name change on the fed level....
6) Could not get hired. I looked great. Carried myself well. Dressed professionally. And still could not get work anywhere doing anything, including other retail jobs.
7) Could not handle the opposite sex. I was hit on, constantly, by guys. Everywhere I went I was being checked out and hit on. Maybe for some of you that would be great but it freaked me out, badly. At the time I did not even entertain the notion of going out with guys. Today is a different story. ;) Oh and note: Wearing lesbian themed clothing and jewelry just makes them try harder.
8 ) Bad guys. Stalkers and other nutjobs.
9) Loss of my primary care physician. Yup, did not like the trans.
10) Depression. Spiraled heavily and quickly.
I detransitioned and swore to rebuild my life. Within a year I had taken on a new job and that led to another good job and then I went back to the other but at a higher pay and things have only improved. My insurance covered the kick butt endoc and I found a new therapist to write the letters that I needed rewritten which she did almost immediately.
Plans to retransition were derailed once by my being laid off. It was a post 9/11 world and the business did not scale back quickly enough and so I was shown the door. I then had to put in one year at the place I am at now before moving forward (was sure they would fire me and wanted legal ammo).
I will state that my going backwards gave my family ammo for not being too thrilled with my choice to transition again. they kept saying I was not happy the first time (they had no idea what I was truly facing back then and they still really do not. If my mom knew the details of some of the things that have happened to me in the last decade she would probably have a heart attack) and it took them awhile to see that I am happy now.
Today I am happy, healthy, and post op.
I have no regrets for the whole journey. I have learned more about myself and society and am a better person for it.
In the book "True Selves", Brown lists ten different kinds of people who have come to her seeking approval for GRS but says none of them are, in fact, transsexuals. If this is true, then that supports the need for the Standards of Care to make sure each of us is on the right track before going through all the major problems of transition and GRS.
Later in the book she states that in her practice, 1% of FTMs and 1.5% of MTFs regretted it after GRS. That's a small percentage but a significant number of people.
It seems that, as in most aspects of life, one size does not fit all.
- Kate
Sometimes I think about giving up, ringing the bell, de-transitioning
Part of it is the cost involved. I don't know if I'll ever have enough to complete my transition
This depresses me allot. Also I feel like everyone hates me. More depression
I think about suicide allot. I'm no-one famous. No-one will miss me anyway
Quote from: Virginia Marie on November 30, 2009, 07:54:23 PM
I think about suicide allot. I'm no-one famous. No-one will miss me anyway
I'm not famous either, nor will ever be, and I'll admit the cost of everything that I've neglected over the years is silly big. (and I'm not talking
just cost of transition expenses)
But I don't care, I just want to be more or less happy while on this loony asylum of a planet, and while you may not think anyone will miss you when dead, you better believe there is somebody out there who would miss your ideas.
Quote from: Kate Bornstein (twitter)
Some days, one foot in front of the other is the best I can do. Makes me feel better to acknowledge that as an accomplishment. #stayalive
Quote from: Dana Lane on November 30, 2009, 05:27:32 AM
Don't forget Michael/Michele Burke! Religion had a part in his detransition and it caused severe depression. I say 'his' because he is male again. Does anyone know what happened to him?
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2007-10-11/news/->-bleeped-<--regret/ (http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2007-10-11/news/-%3E-bleeped-%3C--regret/)
I read that whole article and I didn't come away with the feeling that Berke was necessarily trans but he most certainly has issues and he's very much an illustration of organized religion's tendency to slip into "fixing people" instead of loving people.
I'm not full time yet, but I've found myself doing a lot self examining witch is part of the SOC.
I recently took a big step back help smooth things out with my wife. It felt good at first, but about 2 weeks later. I felt that i still needed to transition.
I agree with the the standards of care you definitely need to take your time to make sure that you are doing the right thing.
I look at the day I start going full time as my transition not the surgery.
Quote from: K8 on November 30, 2009, 07:01:27 PM
It seems that, as in most aspects of life, one size does not fit all.
Absolutely right Kate!
Unfortunately it also applies to the standards of care. I think I have done well enough in life during my 25 years of postop life to qualify as a "real" transsexual whatever that means? But I know that I would never have survived the modern (more demanding) standards of care - I'd have been found in a ditch somewhere dead at my own hand.
The only reason that I am alive today, 25 years postop, happy, financially succesful, 21 years with a loving partner, at the centre of a large group of friends and a pillar of my local community is because I was lucky enough to find a doctor who, after hearing my story, realised that because of the way I lived in my childhood and teen years I had already effectively done my RLE many times over. By the time I was at uni it was trying living as a male which became the (inverted) RLE and which confirmed that I needed to be female.
So I was allowed through the medical process at breakneck speed (just under 6 months). Now that might only suit 0.01% of people. But even if there is only one (me) then it's still a tragedy if the doctors start treating the rules rather than a patient and as a result lose that one person's life.
At the moment the standards of care are all we have... but I really think we really do need to develop a better system of diagnosis. One which doesn't rely on putting barriers in the way of the genuine cases to dicourage the others. The genuine ones are, after all, most likely to be the ones who are suffering the most and are therefore paradoxically least able to deal with vaulting the hurdles. Although happily I there are some doctors who realise that.
I also genuinely find it puzzling when some people cite the "high cost of transition". I am honestly not aware that my transition ever cost me anything (apart of course from some doctors bills). But I never lost a friend or a job through it. Maybe I was just exceptionally lucky? Or perhaps it was because I effectively transitioned whilst still a child. In which case those of you who have to take those terrible hard knocks as an adult have my infinite respect and my deepest sympathy. I can't imagine how strong a person you have to be to go through such hell. I almost can't imagine how sould destroying it must be to come to a point where you feel that you have to give up on your dream.
My respect to all of you.
De-transitioning scares me. Which is why I took a long hard thoughtful look at even moving forward at all. I have long suffered with the issue and I needed to really search my soul and my feelings about everything.
My therapist has noted a few things in the last two years. She told me a while back most come in with a host of other problems thinking transitioning will solve them, yet those issues still exist even in the other gender.
She told me recently of all the patients she has had I am one of the most well adjust, level headed, thoughtful, well learned, thorough patients she had. She has watched me come in as a confused scare person to blossom into a confidant, energetic, beautiful woman that I am today. Now it is just making it permanent that is going to be the challenge.
Quote from: Virginia Marie on November 30, 2009, 07:54:23 PM
Sometimes I think about giving up, ringing the bell, de-transitioning
Part of it is the cost involved. I don't know if I'll ever have enough to complete my transition
This depresses me allot. Also I feel like everyone hates me. More depression
I think about suicide allot. I'm no-one famous. No-one will miss me anyway
umm virginia we would miss you and anyone that hates you obviously dosnt know you (the real you) the one we see here
jessica
Quote from: Virginia Marie on November 30, 2009, 07:54:23 PM
Sometimes I think about giving up, ringing the bell, de-transitioning
Part of it is the cost involved. I don't know if I'll ever have enough to complete my transition
This depresses me allot. Also I feel like everyone hates me. More depression
I think about suicide allot. I'm no-one famous. No-one will miss me anyway
Well, Virginia, I would miss you. :( You're my favorite mermaid. :)
I'm pre-op and am looking forward to aligning my body through further hormone use and surgery, but I've pretty much transitioned. I am a woman. People treat me as a woman. My legal name is Katherine but most people call me Kate. I can go anywhere I want as Kate. Sure, my driver's license and passport still say male, but so what? And if it ever looks like I will have the opportunity to cuddle with some sweet guy, we'll have to have a little talk before we get close to doing that, but I can handle that.
For me, the goal wasn't only to have the body of a woman but to
be a woman – the woman I always knew I was inside. How I fit into the world, how people treat me, how I present myself, are all part of that. I know it is not the same for all of us, but that's how it is for me. And I think the year or more of RLE is vital to finding
me – Kate – inside there somewhere.
I don't understand how after discovering the real you during RLE you would want to go back to some remembered-you. I think perhaps if you focus too much on the idea of having a female body (or male body for FTMs), then you may be setting yourself up for disappointment. And that's where therapy comes in – to help you understand what it is you are
really looking for by transitioning.
It's not about the shell you wear. It's about being able to be
you.
The Standards of Care are guidelines. They should be revisited to reflect current procedures and levels of acceptance of transsexualism, but they are guidelines. It is when the medical community sees them as rules rather than guidelines that we have problems. (And often it is the insurance industry that is driving the medical community, but that's another issue.)
Sorry. I'll get off my soapbox now and let others speak. :icon_redface:
- Kate
Quote from: K8 on December 01, 2009, 08:26:37 AM
The Standards of Care are guidelines. They should be revisited to reflect current procedures and levels of acceptance of transsexualism, but they are guidelines. It is when the medical community sees them as rules rather than guidelines that we have problems. (And often it is the insurance industry that is driving the medical community, but that's another issue.)
Absolutely spot-on as always Kate! I'm totally with you. :)
Speaking of de-transitioning. I just got a wonderful gem of a comment on my blog:
QuoteHi,
I have to say I do not believe that a True Transsexual wil de-transition...
...I think a true Ts will make the decision ti transition and do it regardless and go off into stealth...those who don't may be suffereing form any number of problems that they either will or won't admit to themselves.
This type of attitude still exists which is unfortunate. So if you de-transition you aren't really TS apparently, and if transition for you includes anything other than stealth it means you must be suffering from any number of problems that you might not even be aware of! Wonderful!
That means ALL of our out TS activists have other problems!
I hope this person didn't come from Susan's - to date the attitudes displayed here have been much more fair. However this does resemble the sentiments I've found on other forums I've long abandoned.
Quote from: interalia on December 01, 2009, 02:23:47 PM
Speaking of de-transitioning. I just got a wonderful gem of a comment on my blog:
This type of attitude still exists which is unfortunate. So if you de-transition you aren't really TS apparently, and if transition for you includes anything other than stealth it means you must be suffering from any number of problems that you might not even be aware of! Wonderful!
That means ALL of our out TS activists have other problems!
I hope this person didn't come from Susan's - to date the attitudes displayed here have been much more fair. However this does resemble the sentiments I've found on other forums I've long abandoned.
Bloody right!
I came out of stealth about five years ago, after nearly twenty years simply because I felt guilty that I wasn't contributing anything to the overall image of the trans community - and thereby letting idiotic and unrealitic attitudes like the one you quoted prevail!
Quote from: kelliBennett on December 01, 2009, 06:13:54 AM
My therapist has noted a few things in the last two years. She told me a while back most come in with a host of other problems thinking transitioning will solve them, yet those issues still exist even in the other gender.
Stressing this because way too many have that mindset. The way it worked for me is that transitioning and then surgery allowed me to address a HUGE problem in my life and gave me what I needed to then deal with all of the other things.
My first therapist was crazy like that too.
She believes I was depressed (which I was) and needed to get undepressed before I could start HRT. But the thing was I was depressed about feeling like I was never going to actually go anywhere in transition and start HRT lololol. Ohhhhhhhh shrinks.
I knew many people coming into the program that I was with who detransitioned. It was usually because they could not get a job and decided working in their birth gender was better than our shelter month after month. This includes F to M's also. Extreme hostility from parents or children was also a factor. Our grant expired before we could complete any real follow-ups beyond one year.
Quote from: xsocialworker on December 02, 2009, 04:18:13 PM
I knew many people coming into the program that I was with who detransitioned. It was usually because they could not get a job and decided working in their birth gender was better than our shelter month after month. This includes F to M's also. Extreme hostility from parents or children was also a factor. Our grant expired before we could complete any real follow-ups beyond one year.
I have heard alot of those awful stories. In your opinion, why were these people forced to de-transition to find employment?
Was it because they were not far enough along in their transitions? Or was it because of issues with passing as the desired gender?
Quote from: Jesslee on December 02, 2009, 05:28:52 PM
I have heard alot of those awful stories. In your opinion, why were these people forced to de-transition to find employment?
Was it because they were not far enough along in their transitions? Or was it because of issues with passing as the desired gender?
I'm a self employed musician. I lost most of my gigs and students when I transitioned and was unable to find work as a trans woman. In addition, although I had a letter from my therapist, I couldn't find an endo who would treat me without health insurance, although I had money to pay out of pocket. I re-transitioned and the work magically reappeared.
It had nothing to do with how far I was in transition, over a year, which was enough to know that it was working in all other aspects. Being passable wasn't a factor, I transitioned in a small town so everyone knew anyway. Sometimes w/ strangers I passed, sometimes I didn't. I could care less, I'm not going to hide my past. All that I really care about is being safe, we have too many statistics!
Although I'm OK w living in between gender as I do now, based on my experience I'd be happier perceived as female than male. Reality is I also like having a roof over my head and eating. So I do what I must.
Z
Being passable was not always a factor. It was usually the financial inability to get GRS and get document changes. Basically it was more just plain outright bigotry
Maybe I'm just in the honeymoon stage but I can't conceive of detransitioning - I know I'd be even more useless if I didi.
Well, I can imagine being homeless and too broke to buy a razor and effectively living a forced DT but not willingly...
Well,I have to say that I am theoretically tempted sometimes but not practically tempted, if you get my meaning.
I'm fully aware of what it would do to the lives of my wife and kids (and very few others besides them matter in this context) and so I have no real desire to do it because that obligation to them moves me.
BUT
when it does cross my mind, the main driving force behind it is that it sometimes bothers me that people don't seem to take the mental stress and turmoil that comes with this condition seriously. It's kinda like you have to commit suicide to prove that what you feel is strong enough to make it worth suicide.
Again, to be clear, I'm not remotely close to it - but I can understand the mentality that would make it tempting.
Quote from: Olly on December 04, 2009, 11:29:29 AM
If that's you in the avatar you really are beautiful.
wow, thank you so much. Yes that really is me in the avatar. I never know what to say so thank you again.
The thing that concerns me is what if I'm wrong? I want to do something I want to make a change but I don't rush into it. If I know myself I start something and no matter how it ends I see it through which adds to the whole anxiety over something like transitioning. For me something like a detransition wouldn't even be an option regard less the situation, I would find a way. The little bit that I've done so far (counseling) has got me to the point of knowing the issue but now comes the idea of when of if I should start. Stories of detransitioning, retransitioning intrigue me because my feeling is like you're gambling for this one shot for a peaceful life and something just throws everything aback is it a case of will to force it or is a case of fear or something else?
I stopped my progress some years ago for family. It was a bit easier for me since I had not started HRT. Now I'm back again and undergoing HRT. It seems to me that if you are indeed trans, that if you detransition you can't change who and what you are. You simply learn to make adjustments and compromises and find that comfort zone that you can exist within. Just my opinion. I don't know how one can mentally adjust sufficiently to be contented with a decision to detransition. I don't mean to suggest that one cannot, I just don't see how someone adjusts to that level.
I do understand the hardships faced while transitioning and undergoing RLT. So much to contend with regarding family, work, and just interfacing in general while out and about. Not to mention the cost. I hope I haven't offended anyone, it isn't my intent. I'm just trying to imagine what it would be like to detransition even knowing that you are trans. Such a difficult decision to make whatever the reason. Hugs.
Kathy
Quote from: GenB on December 04, 2009, 11:46:02 PM
The thing that concerns me is what if I'm wrong? I want to do something I want to make a change but I don't rush into it. If I know myself I start something and no matter how it ends I see it through which adds to the whole anxiety over something like transitioning. For me something like a detransition wouldn't even be an option regard less the situation, I would find a way. The little bit that I've done so far (counseling) has got me to the point of knowing the issue but now comes the idea of when of if I should start. Stories of detransitioning, retransitioning intrigue me because my feeling is like you're gambling for this one shot for a peaceful life and something just throws everything aback is it a case of will to force it or is a case of fear or something else?
I had much the same fear. Just because I had always thought I would be happier as a woman didn't mean that I would be. How can you know? That's why I talked it over with my counselor regularly and in the beginning took only steps that could be reversed.
I came out to my friends as transgendered and someone who cross-dressed in private. I deflected questions about transition or surgery as too far down the road.
I began laser and electrolysis treatments to remove my facial hair, figuring I could always present myself as a clean-shaven man.
I got a woman's haircut and manicure (clear polish) and had my eyebrows shaped. I had often presented myself as an effeminate man, and those things all grow out.
I added Katherine to my credit card and investment accounts, as an alias.
I began hormone treatments to soften my contours. Changes are slow in the beginning and I figured I could stop before anything drastic happened.
I began "sort-of" full time, not willing to take the leap.
And then I was sure that I wanted and needed transition. I started full time and applied to have my name changed legally. At that point there was no turning back for me. (But I was lucky. I didn't have to contend with the rejection that Zythyra did.)
There's a lot to changing one's gender to the world. Take it slowly, taking each step when you are ready for it. There is no timetable. If you find something doesn't work, take a step back. And it
really helps if you can have a good counselor and supportive friends along the way.
- Kate
<= confused. When did this turn into a transition thread?
Quote from: Zythyra on November 29, 2009, 07:43:24 PM
Who else has re-transitioned? Reasons for doing so? Considering transition again? Other thoughts?
Anyone else here de-transitioned in the past or present or looking to in the future? I'm interested to know more about why people do this (I mean I have my own perspective and I'm starting to notice similarites, but I'd like to hear from others). Seems people who de-transition have something in their life they consider more important than the transition itself. No duh right? For me it was having authenticity in my relationships.
So to add to Zythyra's original question, if you did de-transition, what did you consider to be more important than transition? Is it still more important? If you transitioned again, did that thing become less important or how else did you justify transition?
Quote from: interalia on December 05, 2009, 04:49:43 PM
Seems people who de-transition have something in their life they consider more important than the transition itself. No duh right? For me it was having authenticity in my relationships.
I'm genuinely intrigued as to why you feel "transition or not" affects the authenticity of your relationships? To be authentic I guess that people should know sure... but other than that I can't see how transition or even SRS affects the authenticity of a relationship.
It no different from clothing really - the body is just the window dressing. The "authentic or not" bit comes from the person inside surely? Which doesn't change. Or am I missing something here?
When I "transitioned" the ONLY thing which I changed was the clothes that I wore. My behaviour changed not one iota. It was already as feminine as it needed to be.
My bodily appearance became different when underwent SRS but again my persona didn't change one iota. I didn't put on an act, "become" any more feminine than I already was. I didn't behave differently. I am the same person today as I always was, just a lot happier being it, because since SRS I have not been constantly disturbed by seeing a stranger whenever I look in the mirror.
It seems to me to follow logically that if my relationships were genuine before, they must still be genuine because the only thing which has changed is my outward appearance, and that could have happened for all sorts of other reasons. I don't suddenly worry that my relationships lack authenticity because I get a scar on my cheek or some other non SRS related alteration to my appearance after all.
So what am I missing here?
That is great if you can do it. Unfortunately, not everbody ( friends, family, employers) see these physical changes as no more than changing clothes or removing a blemish. Children can see the loss of the father or mother they believed they had or maybe those around you will now see you as doing satan's work and condemned to hell ( if one comes from certain backgrounds). If you want to run for office, the media will always find this out and make it an issue. If you can't afford GRS, you live in a gender maybe world where a hospital visit or joining a health club becomes an adventure in political correctness. Mates can think you kept a big secret from them and wonder what else you are hiding. I'm really happy things worked so well for you. Good luck if you can get it.
I don't know any transitioner, either as a friend, co-worker,or agency client that didn't on some level have to fight for basic acceptance. How well they passed or not did not guarantee a smooth social transition. I know many de-transitioners who got fed up with homeless shelters and rejection by families. This is not hearsay because these were my clients in a shelter run by my employer.
Quote from: xsocialworker on December 06, 2009, 09:36:39 AM
That is great if you can do it. Unfortunately, not everbody ( friends, family, employers) see these physical changes as no more than changing clothes or removing a blemish. Children can see the loss of the father or mother they believed they had or maybe those around you will now see you as doing satan's work and condemned to hell ( if one comes from certain backgrounds). If you want to run for office, the media will always find this out and make it an issue. If you can't afford GRS, you live in a gender maybe world where a hospital visit or joining a health club becomes an adventure in political correctness. Mates can think you kept a big secret from them and wonder what else you are hiding. I'm really happy things worked so well for you. Good luck if you can get it.
I don't know any transitioner, either as a friend, co-worker,or agency client that didn't on some level have to fight for basic acceptance. How well they passed or not did not guarantee a smooth social transition. I know many de-transitioners who got fed up with homeless shelters and rejection by families. This is not hearsay because these were my clients in a shelter run by my employer.
Ok all fair points - which I probably missed because transitioning so young I really didn't have to fight much. If I'd have been your client I would have been the exception which proved the rule I guess.
That's why I am personally a believer in young treatment and transition and if possible SRS. I partly transitioned in my childhood and was fully transitioned before 21 (originally without medical help) and I had SRS before I turned 24 (just). I know my own road was INFINITELY easier because I simply didn't have to face all those issues. Or at least not to such an extent. It is far easier if you start your career in the gender role that you desire, and of course my family and friends had been used to my slightly blurred gender since my schooldays.
So I'll put my hand up and admit my ignorance. I'm learning, that's partly why I'm here, and I'll be honest I really don't know how well I would have coped with what all you wonderful people seem to deal with daily.
I also take the point about religion sometimes being an issue. Again it seems like I was very lucky.
The point about running for office though is to be "out" - it can only be used if it is a hidden secret. We have several openly transgender councilors and parliamentary candidates in the UK (for example the Mayor of Cambridge and her lady Mayoress are both elected and both postop Transwomen) and generally speaking the press and opponents seem to treat it as something which is irrelevant. Maybe it just isn't so much of an issue here in the UK?
Quote from: rejennyrated on December 05, 2009, 05:32:32 PM
I'm genuinely intrigued as to why you feel "transition or not" affects the authenticity of your relationships? To be authentic I guess that people should know sure... but other than that I can't see how transition or even SRS affects the authenticity of a relationship.
It no different from clothing really - the body is just the window dressing. The "authentic or not" bit comes from the person inside surely? Which doesn't change. Or am I missing something here?
When I "transitioned" the ONLY thing which I changed was the clothes that I wore. My behaviour changed not one iota. It was already as feminine as it needed to be.
My bodily appearance became different when underwent SRS but again my persona didn't change one iota. I didn't put on an act, "become" any more feminine than I already was. I didn't behave differently. I am the same person today as I always was, just a lot happier being it, because since SRS I have not been constantly disturbed by seeing a stranger whenever I look in the mirror.
It seems to me to follow logically that if my relationships were genuine before, they must still be genuine because the only thing which has changed is my outward appearance, and that could have happened for all sorts of other reasons. I don't suddenly worry that my relationships lack authenticity because I get a scar on my cheek or some other non SRS related alteration to my appearance after all.
So what am I missing here?
The process of transition was a defining time in my life. My past, though male, was full of things that helped shape me as well. Having relationships as a "100%" female meant throwing those things out and pretending they never happened. Sometimes I could adapt stories, ie "when I was a little girl" instead of "when I was a little boy" or the gender neutral "when I was little" (which of course implies "girl" since that is how I present". The problem was, I WASN'T a little girl, ever! I have no idea what that is like. Going to slumber parties with other girls often ratcheted up the intensity of these feelings as stories shared by others about uniquely girl things suddenly put me in an awkward position. I'd go mysteriously quiet or change the subject when questions arose concerning me. Dating was the ultimate stress on this. How/when do I tell the guy I'm with that I wasn't always female? I mean, I'd want to know if he wasn't, and further, I want to be able to be completely open and honest with the people who are close to me.
In the end feelings like these plagued me. I felt like no matter what I did, I was deceiving others and that my relationships were ultimately a self perpetuating lie. Sure, my feelings for them and theirs for me were real, but to keep something so significant to others so secret, felt like I was mocking the relationship. In the end I started coming out to others, and in a dramatic twist, found that it might be possible to live as a male so long as others knew about my transsexual nature and I didn't put myself back into a box. This revelation lead to my de-transition.
Quote from: interalia on December 07, 2009, 11:29:33 AM
The process of transition was a defining time in my life. My past, though male, was full of things that helped shape me as well. Having relationships as a "100%" female meant throwing those things out and pretending they never happened. Sometimes I could adapt stories, ie "when I was a little girl" instead of "when I was a little boy" or the gender neutral "when I was little" (which of course implies "girl" since that is how I present". The problem was, I WASN'T a little girl, ever! I have no idea what that is like. Going to slumber parties with other girls often ratcheted up the intensity of these feelings as stories shared by others about uniquely girl things suddenly put me in an awkward position. I'd go mysteriously quiet or change the subject when questions arose concerning me. Dating was the ultimate stress on this. How/when do I tell the guy I'm with that I wasn't always female? I mean, I'd want to know if he wasn't, and further, I want to be able to be completely open and honest with the people who are close to me.
In the end feelings like these plagued me. I felt like no matter what I did, I was deceiving others and that my relationships were ultimately a self perpetuating lie. Sure, my feelings for them and theirs for me were real, but to keep something so significant to others so secret, felt like I was mocking the relationship. In the end I started coming out to others, and in a dramatic twist, found that it might be possible to live as a male so long as others knew about my transsexual nature and I didn't put myself back into a box. This revelation lead to my de-transition.
I'm so glad to hear that that worked for you! And I now understand better what you mean - so thank you for sharing that.
Sadly I don't think it would ever have worked for me, partly because my childhood was far less clearcut, I genuinly did grow up between genders, and partly because a proportion of my motivation was physical body dismorphia and not about gender roles at all - I simply couldn't accept my male physical aspects to any meaningful extent.
But I do think that the points you raise are seriously worthy of careful consideration for anyone who is going through the process of deciding whether or not to transition. One must indeed know one's own mind and motivation very throroughly if one chooses to do this thing.
Quote from: rejennyrated on December 07, 2009, 12:20:29 PM
I'm so glad to hear that that worked for you! And I now understand better what you mean - so thank you for sharing that.
Sadly I don't think it would ever have worked for me, partly because my childhood was far less clearcut, I genuinly did grow up between genders, and partly because a proportion of my motivation was physical body dismorphia and not about gender roles at all - I simply couldn't accept my male physical aspects to any meaningful extent.
But I do think that the points you raise are seriously worthy of careful consideration for anyone who is going through the process of deciding whether or not to transition. One must indeed know one's own mind and motivation very throroughly if one chooses to do this thing.
During the process of transition, I had never heard this point of view before (that people felt like they might be deceiving others being stealth). A few implied it, even justified the deceit by exclaiming, "I always was a woman" or "it isn't their business". I only ever found one post op person to even write about it (and the distress it causes) but it was after I had already de-transitioned.
All the wonderful things about feeling that I was finally in the right body, etc, were overshadowed by this terrible inescapable truth - that I wasn't always a girl - and subsequently feeling the need to hide that fact to the detriment of my relationships.
Quote from: interalia on December 07, 2009, 12:44:05 PM
During the process of transition, I had never heard this point of view before (that people felt like they might be deceiving others being stealth). A few implied it, even justified the deceit by exclaiming, "I always was a woman" or "it isn't their business". I only ever found one post op person to even write about it (and the distress it causes) but it was after I had already de-transitioned.
All the wonderful things about feeling that I was finally in the right body, etc, were overshadowed by this terrible inescapable truth - that I wasn't always a girl - and subsequently feeling the need to hide that fact to the detriment of my relationships.
A very good reason for my current attitude which is to be honest whenever the issue arises and I can do so without causing embarassment. I then let people either take me or leave me. I don't advertise but I never conceal, although it isprobably is easier when, like me, you have been diagnosed as having an intersex component to the story.
Strangely enough the issue only rarely arises, and when it does 99% of people are fine... and the other 1% are just not worth the powder and shot!
I'm considering this path but I feel that the term "detransition" seems to imply some sort of "step backwards" impression to other people. I prefer to embrace it as a step forward rather than a step back - that all those years spent living as a woman wasn't a waste at all and were in fact stepping stones for self discovery and understanding.
I consider myself one of the lucky ones having done this very young as well but to put it really simply I think I have grown along the years - I'm not exactly that old either, but there are other facets in my life neglected in my journey so far. Its quite hard to explain but I feel I've inexplicably been placed into a box (ironically a transition from another extreme box) where people automatically assume things about me and don't really take me seriously e.g. in the same sense no one is going to take Lady Gaga or Beyonce seriously if they were to sit down and talk about quantum physics or spout off about Noam Chomsky. Not that I'm trying to be a physicist or philosopher or some intellectual but I'm increasingly feeling like some bimbotic automaton. And in my case, the bimbo, pretty face part seem to be poised to go downhill once I age and grow older.
Its a difficult box to get out of since it is a cushy, comfortable experience that really leaves one prone to a sense of apathy - it is ever so easy to get used to the superficial attention and privilege, especially from men - and to react reciprocally by maintaining that visage. I don't know how people ever save up money since I'm always blowing my entire pay check on clothes, shoes, makeup, hair styling, botox or facials etc. However, the greater price paid, at least in my opinion and experience, is that the nurture of my inner mettle and character inevitably takes a back seat in face of maintaining that outward image to people. That at the end of it all, I wouldn't have any solid, meaningful foundations built to connect with people and I'd feel lost and confused and lonely. Its a real concern for me since I haven't really found many people that I could connect deeply with, like with my mom or dad for instance - I think so far they were the only ones who are not the most concerned about outward appearances.
I can already see my girlfriends pondering similar questions as well, but usually their energies are directed towards paths that I can't approach the same way like procreation and having kids and becoming soccer mom types etc - I think that its one of the more common paths women take for the next half of their lives, then perhaps the next hitch comes up when their kids grow up and leave home. I can't really see myself doing the same though.
Not that I hate my life entirely now, but ultimately the path I'm on isn't healthy for me, given my tendency towards these obsessions.
Some instances I've had lately as well, where I've went overseas alone for travel. I had the opportunity to be alienated from my regular surroundings and in those moments of solitude I had some deep rooted revelations after self reflection (nothing of the religious sort). In short, the outer surface of what I thought was my unique, individual identity was simply a set of routines. I mean all this while I was always sure that we all have an essential self, but if you spend every day chopping up meat on a slab, and selling it by the pound, soon you'll find you've become a butcher. And if you don't want to become a butcher (why would I or you want to?) you'd have to cut right through the bare bones of you own character to find out who you really are.
Which definitely hurts. And it feels scary as well since I feel like I'm winging it.
Also like IA, I'm seeking that sense of authenticity in relationships and to connect with people in a more genuine way. The process keeps getting delayed because the attention I get is positive and validating and I haven't done anything concrete and keep procrastinating - I can't say for sure at this time whether I'll eventually go all the way.
I'm not really good at keeping my post cogent on all these but I hope I conveyed a good sense of where I'm coming from. >,<
Oceanus: I think that's a very sincere and interesting post.
I can understand what you are talking about
Still, for me, transition has been about achieving more authenticity.
I am much more free to be me.
Yes, I fit 100% in the broad category of "women", but I don't feel bound by limitations.
I guess that at my age that I haven't had as much (any?) objectifying as younger women get.
Speaking only for me, de-transition would be an enormous step backwards, possibly lethal.
I've been pondering this for a couple of days now, since I first posted in the thread. I think the bottom line here is that we live in an imperfect world. Whatever you choose to do in life there are always going to be some aspects of it which don't match your aspirations and hopes.
So it is like choosing a second hand car. The fool goes out looking for one perfect and without any faults and ends up frustrated because they don't exist (or at least not many of them). The slightly wiser person goes out looking for a car with faults and flaws which they can live with!
That's what I feel about my life. Obviously I see myself wholeheartedly as female, a woman, but I'm also realistic enough to know that there are some in CIS (and indeed maybe trans) society who might wish to view me as merely a mutilated and castrated male.
Ok, I'd far rather people saw me as a woman, and happily most do so, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince and argue with the rest. Because if the only option available for a postop Transwoman was to be seen as a castrated male then I would still have chosen to do what I have done because I feel at least I have made a valid statement about myself and moved myself a little closer to my ideal than I was before.
If you can reach that level of acceptance of the possible limitations of the situation, then you are probably ready for SRS, because nothing, no arguement that anyone could throw at you, will make you want to go back to how you were before.
I prefer to be seen as a woman, but if that were impossible I'd still far rather be as I am now, even if people did regard me as an oddity.
Some people can't reach that point. For them it is perfection or nothing. Their options then become less clearcut. They can either chase an impossible perfection, which they will never reach because we can't (yet) undo that Y chromasome, and even if we could we couldn't alter those early childhood memories which may be different from what they might have been. The other alternative, is either not to transition at all, or indeed to de-transition.
If I was chasing perfection then I think I probably would have given up. Because it seems to me that chasing perfection in this flawed world is a terribly cruel, expensive and ultimately frustrating path to feel that you must tread.
Oceanus, I think I understand what you are saying. It sounds to me like you haven't managed to find who you are as a person. (I'm sorry if I'm reading the wrong things into your post.) You have worked to become a woman but somehow the person didn't get developed. I'm not sure that you need to de-transition to find that person, but perhaps you do.
I am transitioning late in life. I had to develop myself as a person to get where I am today. I looked into transition 25 years ago and couldn't do it. I knew I wasn't ready because I hadn't developed enough as an adult and that trying to learn to fit in as a woman while I was still learning to fit as a human wouldn't work for me. (I've always been slow to develop. :P)
Oceanus, it sounds like you are going through what most of us go through – cis and trans alike – trying to figure out who you are. We all are, under our presentation and gender and orientation and everything else, just people. Finding the person you are is part of growing up. Good luck, sweetie.
(And please let me know if I am way off base here. I apologize for making invalid assumptions.)
- Kate
When I have more time, I will respond to you specifically Oceanus. I will say that you sound a lot like I did.
rejennyrated's comments about the car is perfectly true. I've seen far too many transpeople move through their transition and NEVER be happy because they are always focused on things they don't have. At no point do they ever stop and think of all they've gained, all they can focus on is how unfair it is what has been denied them due to their GID, etc. It was being focused and happy on all that I had that helped me to be happy and helps me to be happy now.
You see, I didn't find my second hand car to be my transitioned body/life, but my male one. I realized the car and the social impact of its imperfections were manageable, and I realized I could indeed drive it the rest of my life with a little tweeking. Moving to the other sex second-hand car, while it seemed to be more what I wanted, had waaaaaay more problems under the hood. After test driving it and realizing such, I traded it in for my old car and spent my resources improving that one.
Quote from: interalia on December 09, 2009, 01:33:42 PM
When I have more time, I will respond to you specifically Oceanus. I will say that you sound a lot like I did.
rejennyrated's comments about the car is perfectly true. I've seen far too many transpeople move through their transition and NEVER be happy because they are always focused on things they don't have. At no point do they ever stop and think of all they've gained, all they can focus on is how unfair it is what has been denied them due to their GID, etc. It was being focused and happy on all that I had that helped me to be happy and helps me to be happy now.
You see, I didn't find my second hand car to be my transitioned body/life, but my male one. I realized the car and the social impact of its imperfections were manageable, and I realized I could indeed drive it the rest of my life with a little tweeking. Moving to the other sex second-hand car, while it seemed to be more what I wanted, had waaaaaay more problems under the hood. After test driving it and realizing such, I traded it in for my old car and spent my resources improving that one.
My point exactly!
(and of course I came to the opposite evaluation.)
Well, for me I definitely feel like de-transitioning would call the legitimacy of my condition into question for those around me, and that alone constitutes losing ground I have gained.
On a totally unrelated (and terribly shallow) note - with all due respect to our new friend, my fondest wish would be to sample a decade or so of being the sort of "bimbo" she describes.
Maybe it's just the realization that I'm old enough that nothing that goes with that experience will ever happen to me but that life, including all the things people tend to describe as negatives about it (not being taken seriously as a thinker, being "talked down to", and etc) appeal to me a lot
(She says obviously having NO experience upon which to base the opinion ;) )
Oh that's OK Laura Honey, even if you had had some experience I'm not sure you would have known what it meant. Better leave that to your betters.
There you go Laura, that's what its like. But all the time.
I could live with that....
;)
Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2009, 11:39:09 PM
Oh that's OK Laura Honey, even if you had had some experience I'm not sure you would have known what it meant. Better leave that to your betters.
There you go Laura, that's what its like. But all the time.
*kills self*
mmmm *shakes head in disbelief* laura hun really you would like being treated like dirt with no oppinion even cis women dont like that they may get it but few put up with it for long except the truly dumb ones
jessica
Quote from: Laura Hope on December 09, 2009, 11:24:40 PM
Well, for me I definitely feel like de-transitioning would call the legitimacy of my condition into question for those around me, and that alone constitutes losing ground I have gained.
On a totally unrelated (and terribly shallow) note - with all due respect to our new friend, my fondest wish would be to sample a decade or so of being the sort of "bimbo" she describes.
Maybe it's just the realization that I'm old enough that nothing that goes with that experience will ever happen to me but that life, including all the things people tend to describe as negatives about it (not being taken seriously as a thinker, being "talked down to", and etc) appeal to me a lot
(She says obviously having NO experience upon which to base the opinion ;) )
There's nothing wrong at all wanting to sample that kind of life :) its almost addictive sometimes. I mean I grew up in a post club kid sorta era where you have people like Paris Hilton or Nicole Richie, both who are older than me and sort of role models to me. Both of course gracing social stages of extreme burlesque which is pretty farcical to most people - yes it is an exaggeration, however the experience is very tempting and tantalizing. Although whatever highs or gratification feels fleeting and extremely transient when the party ends.
If I could parallel my thoughts to a story - I suppose in a pretty morbid way, I feel both like Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle in the Pygmalion where there's a sense that seeking changes to attain authenticity may inevitably get mixed up in a cycle of validation. Then in the end you end up revisiting or experiencing your origins and find that you could do what you really wanted from the start, without having the need to go through all the trouble in the first place.
K8 I agree that I probably haven't found myself - I think everyone does as well. I don't think I could take the regular route though like most of my peers to occupy my next 20-25 years and it does bug me in a sort of way.
The car analogy you guys mention reminds me of an encounter I had with an ex-superior. He was actually trying to hook up with me at that time - and we ended up having food at a famous roadside stall where the food was amazing at cheap prices. He's a really successful banker, and young at 35, and I was one of the up and coming, ambitious sales persons that joined his firm. I can't remember how the rest of the conversation went since he was trying to proposition me, very sleazy yes but its a silly workplace dynamic in investment banks where they hire brainless money hungry bimbos (yes I was one of them) - but strangely all I remember till today was him mentioning his poor upbringings and eating at the same roadside stall before he was successful and he realized that after all his hard work and money made, he was essentially doing the same things as before that he could do before when he was poor and after going through the entire cycle of luxury - he was increasingly shunning the materialism and doing things like jogging in the park after work, reading newspapers and eating at mom's and pop's, roadside stall kinda places. Of course, I didn't entirely buy his self-deprecation in that sort since his maserati was parked beside (plus the fact he's married) but I couldn't help at the same time find his thoughts terribly insightful and thought provoking.
The point I guess is that if I were to become a statistic on a psychology journal it would seem almost irrational that I would be having regrets at all, since if I were to examine things my transition on paper would seem like an ideal or at the very least, a legitimate case. Maybe that's the problem since life isn't on paper *shrugs* :-\
I'm really thankful for this thread by the way, its been really interesting so far to read all these responses.
Watch Faux Noise and you will see otherwise intelligent women like Gretchen Carlsen and Greta Van Sustern dumb down for money. Actually that includes every female on Fixed News. Compare them to Rachel Maddow who does not get cutsy nor pander to men. Anna Marie Cox sounds like a valley girl and so does Cindy McCain. However neither is actually playing "girlie" and what they have to say is not dumned down at all. It's simple. Liberal girlie girls are still intelligent and conservative bubble heads hide their intelligence cause that is what the "base" enjoys.
(hope this is relevant-----lol)
You don't have to go any further than the difference between Sara Palin and Hillary Clinton on that right/left deal.
Quote from: jesse on December 10, 2009, 02:07:22 AM
mmmm *shakes head in disbelief* laura hun really you would like being treated like dirt with no oppinion even cis women dont like that they may get it but few put up with it for long except the truly dumb ones
jessica
Well, it IS a bit tongue in cheek because I was thinking of that as part of the overall package of being young and desirable and so forth.
Like anything else, the stereotype of such "grass is greener" fantasies is ALWAYS way better than actually having it.
Post Merge: December 10, 2009, 12:36:22 PM
QuoteThere's nothing wrong at all wanting to sample that kind of life :) its almost addictive sometimes. - yes it is an exaggeration, however the experience is very tempting and tantalizing. Although whatever highs or gratification feels fleeting and extremely transient when the party ends.
Thank you, I'm glad you understand what I was getting at and what the attraction is to me.
I'm not trying to argue that i would have no problem with being the sallow bimbo type ever because I have no frame of reference to guess, but I'm also not going to deny that it appeals to me very much to have the chance to find out.
I don't know if it contributes to the feeling or not but I've always been better informed, smarter, whatever than a lot of the people around me and I don't have much in life to show for it and I've also been one of the least desierable "men" around in any given situation so flipping those two might be interesting.
I don't think Sarah Palin is acting. Being a dumb broad does get certain perks out of the guys installing the cable, but it is totally inappropriate in politics
I think it would be fun if there were a few threads here where I didn't have to see a tangent develop wherein I have to bite my tongue while the conservative bashing erupts but I guess that's maybe too much to expect...
Sorry. No more "conservative" bashing. It's just not fair to those who genuinely believe in small government, less government interference, individual liberty, and the Constitution. That of course does not include the current Republican Party minus Rep. Ron Paul.
Quote from: xsocialworker on December 10, 2009, 08:57:17 PM
Sorry. No more "conservative" bashing. It's just not fair to those who genuinely believe in small government, less government interference, individual liberty, and the Constitution. That of course does not include the current Republican Party minus Rep. Ron Paul.
On that we can agree (although I might not limit the list to ONLY Ron Paul... it's surely not very long)
Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 29, 2009, 07:56:50 PM
It is sad that society can not just let us be us. What is so f-ing hard about that. How many must die for us to be allowed to transition.
Janet
Agreed.
It really doesn't matter what age you are; as a women you generally get talked down to or treated as ignorant anyway. Most times I just go along with it, using it to my advantage when I can. What was a bit surprising to discover was that even some women treat other women the same way.
Considering how little effect HRT has on me over the years....if I stoped taking it for a while no one would even notice any difference! I look quite fem anyway..