How do you guys find your way around the dating scene? I've only ever really had the one relationship that ended about two months ago when I came out to her, so I haven't really had the chance to find my niche in the dating scene. Most of the people I hang around with are lesbians, and I sure as hell don't want anyone to go out with me thinking or reading me as just butch. I've already decided whenever I get into my next relationship, I'm going to be honest about things from the start...
But how do you manage? How do you find people to date or start a possible serious relationship with?
Pre-T or on T? Just curious.
I'm not bothering until I'm on T.
I don't honestly know .... I've got so much going on in my life that I am not looking, if I find someone I guess I'll just try my best to be a good boyfriend.
I'm not looking right now because I have a lot going on. But for the past several months, I've been slowly building up friendships in a gay men's group that I belong to. And I'm putting out feelers on a Yahoo group of queer people who are interested in one of my favorite subjects/hobbies.
I hope that I'll meet more people through these people. Once my circle of acquaintances widens, maybe I'll run into someone I'm interested in who is also interested in me.
I have no idea how I'll handle the situation if I do find someone like that. Guess I'll cross that bridge if/when I come to it.
I've never really dated and tend to have an instant attraction that quickly develops into a long-term relationship. I worry that I'll find a gay guy I really fall for who won't see me as a genuine guy. So I'll need a thick skin. I think a lot of us need to develop that but still maintain permeability.
I don't suppose this helps you. Are you primarily looking for straight women now? I hear that a few lesbians are okay with transmen, but I don't know how these lesbians define the relationship or perceive the transman. I suppose there's a lot of variation.
I imagine you could meet women by getting involved in groups of people who share your interests. Sooner or later, you're bound to find someone who is interested in you. Then you can cross the trans bridge when you come to it.
Pre-T: didn't bother.
Post-Passing and top surgery: tried but still too soon (for me).
Now I'm 1 yr post top surgery and nearly 18months on T: getting closer but planning lower surgery in 2010, so likely not until after that has healed well.
Have dabbled in some online stuff, have said it's a strictly online thing with no intentions of taking to real life, has been fun except the one woman who has fallen for me hard despite saying no to long distance/real life. So that's my story.
I'm also contemplating a move in the next year or so, which compounds things.
Jay
I was lucky because I have been with my girlfriend since before I came out as trans and so far she has stuck with me and had very few issues. We will see how me going on T affects our relationship but so far everything has been good. I honestly can't say that I would date anyone while I was transitioning if I wasn't already with someone.
Quote from: Lachlann on December 06, 2009, 01:07:30 AM
Pre-T or on T? Just curious.
I'm not bothering until I'm on T.
Either, but I guess I'm even more interested in pre-T because I've got no plans to start T anytime soon.
Post Merge: December 06, 2009, 06:05:05 PM
Quote from: Arch on December 06, 2009, 04:33:30 AMI don't suppose this helps you. Are you primarily looking for straight women now? I hear that a few lesbians are okay with transmen, but I don't know how these lesbians define the relationship or perceive the transman. I suppose there's a lot of variation.
I imagine you could meet women by getting involved in groups of people who share your interests. Sooner or later, you're bound to find someone who is interested in you. Then you can cross the trans bridge when you come to it.
I'm not sure
what I'm primarily interested in. I have a friend I'm interested in, but there's no interest in return. She
does identify as lesbian, but she's not against the idea of being with a guy or transman or anything. She's just only been attracted to females before. *sigh* It sucks, though.
I'm not sure what kinds of groups to get involved in, though. I'm already very involved in the LGBTQIS group on campus -- treasurer of it, in fact. The people in it are amazing, and most of my friends are in it.
What do you mean about crossing the trans bridge when I get to it? I want to be open about that from the beginning of any potential relationship... I don't want to be read as a butch lesbian, and whatever I actually identity as, it's a pretty big part of who I am. So...
well for a while I didn't worry about it, cos when I started T I was with my gf who's bi and wanted to stay w/ me. but we broke up about a month ago, and I found out this straight girl I've been hangin out with has had a crush on me for a while even though she knew I was trans. so we've been hooking up/hanging out but I don't plan on dating her. basically what I'm trying to say is just live your life and let things happen. I thought the whole "some straight girls are cool w/ it" thing was just to make us feel better but it's true. you don't have to go out of your way to find girls who will be open to dating you.
Quote from: Brynn on December 06, 2009, 06:00:23 PM
What do you mean about crossing the trans bridge when I get to it? I want to be open about that from the beginning of any potential relationship... I don't want to be read as a butch lesbian, and whatever I actually identity as, it's a pretty big part of who I am. So...
I don't go around advertising that I was/am trans. I am post-top-surgery and have been on T for about ten months. Nobody has read me as female since before my surgery, so all the gay men I'm meeting know nothing about my past life when I was living as female. When I meet a new guy, I don't stick my hand out and say, "Hi, I'm Arch, and I was born in a female body." So if I do meet a guy and there's a mutual attraction, I'll have to decide exactly when to bring up the subject of my body. I don't plan to jump into bed with anyone right away, and I don't see any reason to tell him about myself before it looks like things might be headed in that direction. If I think he's relationship material, only then will I divulge.
Quote from: Chamillion on December 06, 2009, 07:04:56 PM
well for a while I didn't worry about it, cos when I started T I was with my gf who's bi and wanted to stay w/ me. but we broke up about a month ago, and I found out this straight girl I've been hangin out with has had a crush on me for a while even though she knew I was trans. so we've been hooking up/hanging out but I don't plan on dating her. basically what I'm trying to say is just live your life and let things happen. I thought the whole "some straight girls are cool w/ it" thing was just to make us feel better but it's true. you don't have to go out of your way to find girls who will be open to dating you.
This right here ^
I was dating a pansexual, eventually we broke up for other reasons. But there are straight girls out there who are cool with it and I'm just going to sort things out before jumping into a relationship again.
Personally, I'm in a relationship and my girlfriend has no feel for gender. You are who you are and it's your choice to make. If she's attracted, then she's attracted and she'll pursue. So things are well for me. Some girls are like that. If you can find one of them, then I think you'll be well off too.
What I want to say to you, however, is that you really should just get out there and let things happen. Take interest in those you want and see how things go. I would do that and if I did I wouldn't bring up being trans. That is something you should leave for when you feel that you want the relationship to go farther and she wants it t ogo farther. Then you can talk over you being trans. You need to let those you are with accept you as male at first, so you can make them see that there really is no difference between you and a biomale.
That's just how I would approach the whole situation. If it feels too much like lying, then oh well, try your way. I'm just trying to say that it isn't really lying, because you are a man. Whether or not your genitals say so.
I don't care for my gender identity to screw up another relationship though. My ex broke up with me at least halfway because of how I identify. So I want someone to accept me 100% as I am from the beginning. It's not like I'm going to put myself out there as transgender in an unsafe situation. Atm, my dating pool is pretty much limited to people from the LGBTQIS group I'm involved in on campus. And we've been having a lot of gender talks and whatnot, so it's not like it'd be way out in left field for me to bring my gender identity up.
I appreciate the advice, guys. But especially because I'm still exploring my gender identity, being trans is too big a part of who I am for me to just let people assume I'm a bioguy. I'll be careful, though.
I've known a few lesbians that didn't mind dating transguys.
Quote from: ccc on December 08, 2009, 01:01:15 AM
I've known a few lesbians that didn't mind dating transguys.
me too. Lesbian is not what I want tho.
Quote from: LordKAT on December 08, 2009, 01:28:11 AM
me too. Lesbian is not what I want tho.
Sort of like my reservations about staying with my straight partner...but before I could decide what to do, he broke up with me. Heh.
Assuming that you are looking for relationship material, and not just hot casual sex - because that's a whole other set of rules, cause its a whole other set of girls - ...
The male is the predator, the female is the prey. That - if not the natural - is the social order of 'dating' in the modern West. (Remember that whole 'dating' deal is only sort of a century or so old, its a very modern deal). However, unlike nature anywhere else, its the prey that decides if, when, how and under what conditions they are to be 'caught' in.
That gives them pretty much total control of all the cards. The effort is going to be all yours, the choice, all hers.
And since its a lot of effort - there are no lazy overweight predators in nature - it only makes sense to extend the effort on the prey most likely to succumb and that you favor the most.
So first, figure out what you want, then narrow it down to those most likely to fit. This narrows it down to individual people, and people date other people, they don't date other groups of people. So forget the entire trans/cis deal and concentrate on those persons that are the most appealing. Because on an individual level its amazing how much relationships are open to negotiation. And people fall in love with other people, not with other groups of persons.
However, and this is critical in the initial selection process, other things are not open to any negotiation, and ought to be considered deal killers from the get go, because she is going to consider them that too. Kids are a huge factor that many women are not going to be open to negotiating, one way or the other. Women who want to have kids are never going to be talked out of it, the desire is deep, instinct level stuff, it will not change. They are not going to be open to anything that can not, or will not, deliver that.
Financial stuff is also hard to negotiate your way around. And that's not just golddigger stuff - true that plenty of women like that exist - but women in general (perhaps because its largely true) are much more aware that their financial status and stability will depend on who she partners with much more than it does for men. So the last part of the holy trinity "Are you married? Are you gay? Are you employed?" is of equal value to the first two questions. No woman wants to think that she will have to support some guy, and when that happens it tends to suck, and they avoid the possibility of ending up there. And in the long run, people who aspire to a specific standard of living are not going to be happy unless they obtain it.
And, then, do all the hard work. Pay attention to them. Cater to them - they expect it. They don't think its a form of oppression, they think of it as respect. Most women/girls expect that all the social formalities and graces (opening doors, carrying stuff like a pack mule, opening doors while carrying stuff like a pack mule, pulling the chair out, helping with the coat, etc) will be carried out. They don't think 'oh that's nice' they think "That's Right!'.
The process is weighted toward women being selective, so you have to give them time to work to that point. They tend not to see someone across a room and think "must have" then to actually try to get to know the person first. Silly, I know. Where guys will work out the shortcomings later, girls really want to know them upfront. You kinda have to perform for them for a bit. No other way to put it. You have to let her get to know you before you can try to talk her into falling for you.
Oh yeah, I just have to add this. Chicks can smell desperation from across the room. And they don't like it. Nope. Not one little bit. So do whatever you have to do not to reek of it. Every guy knows this.
But here is what I came here to say. I once watched a Barbra Walters special where she interviewed Ursula Andrews, Linda Evans and Bo Derick. All had been married to John Derick, in that order. All while they were in their 20s. That's one hell of a lifetime achievement award in women to be sure. And as Barbra interviewed the two exs - Ursula and Linda - both were still quite fond of him, no bitterness, no evil ex-hate which is so common. And Bo was - at time she was just about 'the hottest babe' on earth) married to him at the time and head over heals in love with him. So old Barbra asked the three of them (all were interviewed separately) the same question, one that I paid very close attention too - I was learning from the Master after all. She asked what it was about John that they all found so overwhelming appealing. And, as if by magic, all three said exactly the same thing. So, pay attention, this is it, from god's own lips as they say - they three of them answered: When you talk to John he makes you feel like you are the only woman on earth. That's that 'pay attention' deal, but it's paying attention to the direct and exact exclusion of every single person in the room with you, especially the other women. It makes them feel special, and that is a key determent.
And you make that connection, you demonstrate the ability to make them feel special, before you ask for the date, it really helps in getting an affirmative answer. And keep at it. And never, never - it goes to what they said about John Derick - check out other women (when you're with her).
Quote from: tekla on December 08, 2009, 12:36:02 PM
So, pay attention, this is it, from god's own lips as they say - they three of them answered: When you talk to John he makes you feel like you are the only woman on earth. That's that 'pay attention' deal, but it's paying attention to the direct and exact exclusion of every single person in the room with you, especially the other women. It makes them feel special, and that is a key determent.
And you make that connection, you demonstrate the ability to make them feel special, before you ask for the date, it really helps in getting an affirmative answer. And keep at it. And never, never - it goes to what they said about John Derick - check out other women (when you're with her).
*takes notes*... thinks "I gotta study this stuff"... lol thanks for that advice, sounds legit and seems like its ideally what women want... now what about men?
Dang, Tekla, why do you always have the best advice?
amazing tekla, you should make a seperate post, it'll help us guys out for sure. best advice brynn, try the online dating sites (I like downelink), it'll give you some confidence and help you work out the "kinks" without the pressure of a face to face encounter.
You can observe a lot by just watching. Yogi Berra. And I've got to watch a lot over the years. But the JD thing is classic. Make her feel like she is the only woman in the world. If you can get to that point, you're 95% of the way there.
But I've got to disagree about the on-line deal, for two reasons. First, how do you know that who you are 'practicing' with is what you want to be practicing for? Everyone who watches To Catch A Predator knows that just about every 14 year old girl on web is some 35 year old cop. So, I have to assume that for a huge amount of the web, what people say they are that night might not exactly match up with reality.
Second, its a deal done in real time, face to face with other people (which is why its so scary) and there is no real way to practice for that.
Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2009, 02:14:47 PM
Second, its a deal done in real time, face to face with other people (which is why its so scary) and there is no real way to practice for that.
We all know what great preparation those driving simulators are, almost exactly like the real thing. Really. The two are so similar that you almost can't tell the difference at all, hardly.
Any advice on the eye contact thing? I tend to get watery eyed when I look at someone in the eyes and am uncomfortable.
tekla you're right there is no substitute for the real thing. I just know from personal experience that it's helped me, that and a xanax. ;) Sometimes you just need to get your feet wet before you're ready to dive in. Even if the "hottie" you're chatting up online turns out to be in reality an overweight man with back hair and assless chaps.
the "hottie" you're chatting up online turns out to be in reality an overweight man with back hair and assless chaps
Hey, that's me!
Quote from: Evan on December 09, 2009, 09:07:02 PM
tekla you're right there is no substitute for the real thing. I just know from personal experience that it's helped me, that and a xanax. ;) Sometimes you just need to get your feet wet before you're ready to dive in. Even if the "hottie" you're chatting up online turns out to be in reality an overweight man with back hair and assless chaps.
Which begs for the question... are chaps ever not assless?
Of course not, but somehow 'assless chaps' sounds so much more - well, something.
I hate to admit it...a lot of my relationships start online, because I spend a LOT of time online, chained to my computer. But I've never really gone online LOOKING for a relationship and it work out (I've tried online dating services once. Never again.) Most relationships I have just come to me, starting as friendships...and I'm happy with that.
Personally I refuse to even take someone's sexual orientation into account when considering if I would seek them for a relationship. I would never date anyone that I met through a lesbian group, gay group, etc etc because I would be afraid of what you all said--them seeing me in a different light than I see myself. I think this is also why I hated the dating sites...it didn't feel natural and comfortable; people were there with one real point of view and it's all just a competition to get person A to like you or move to person B.
My girlfriend is straight, knows my FtM status, and is 100% supportive of us.
Quote from: Brynn on December 07, 2009, 03:51:43 PM
I don't care for my gender identity to screw up another relationship though. My ex broke up with me at least halfway because of how I identify. So I want someone to accept me 100% as I am from the beginning. It's not like I'm going to put myself out there as transgender in an unsafe situation. Atm, my dating pool is pretty much limited to people from the LGBTQIS group I'm involved in on campus. And we've been having a lot of gender talks and whatnot, so it's not like it'd be way out in left field for me to bring my gender identity up.
I appreciate the advice, guys. But especially because I'm still exploring my gender identity, being trans is too big a part of who I am for me to just let people assume I'm a bioguy. I'll be careful, though.
Hun, I noticed that a lot of users are ushering you not to be out about being trans. The thing is, while it's totally understandable that they do not relish 'outing themselves' unnecessarily, (I'm not being down on them- it's very reasonable to not want/need to tell people what's in your pants when it doesn't need to be their business) there is nothing wrong with you being open about your identity if you yourself are comfortable with it, and from the sounds of it, it could very well help to negate unwanted expectations/views of you.
The truth of the matter is, if you are just out as a guy, and not as trans, well... You are a guy, but due to the ratio of cisgendered guys to transsexual ones, it'll be assumed that you're cisgendered. Or worse, since you're pre-T and may not pass 100%, if you aren't out about being a transguy or at least a guy, people may even simply assume you're a woman, blargh! And when your lover 'finds out' that you aren't cisgendered, there could be problems- so if you're comfortable being out as a transguy, by all means, let people know so you don't get stuck in a drama crapstorm with someone who expects/assumes you're cisgendered and discovers (possibly with utter dismay!) that you are not!
I know you were saying before that you're wary about dating someone who identifies as lesbian, because they might try to see you as a woman- the thing is, most 'straight' men will do the same, and 'straight' girls have the potential to freak out and blow up or not be interested at all, as well, due to the 'trans status'. My advice is, don't be too scared of experimenting with dating a gay girl, because really, if you avoid gay girls because they 'might be weird to you', you're judging lesbians in the same way you DO NOT want other people to judge *you*, in regards to dating, as a transguy. With any gender, sex, or orientation, there is the potential for your lover to try to see you in ways that are more appealing to them; avoiding gay women will not eliminate potential for this to happen.
Honestly, since you're comfortable being out as trans, wear it on your sleeve so people 'know what they're getting into', and then date whoever is appealing to you, really. Issues are a possibility for transpeople with any orientation or sex or gender, so don't be too afraid. After all, you don't want other people acting afraid or hesitant about you, so do other gender identities/sexual orientations a favor by not stereotyping them too much. ;) It's unfortunate that many romantic relationships between a transperson and just about anyone else has to have a Trans 101 at some point, but since you're out as trans, may as well bring it up from the get-go and get a feel for how understanding your love interest is, and go from there.
Be upfront. If a lesbian girl is interested in you, assert your male identity and explain it to her, to make sure you're both on the same page and you're not being objectified as female-bodied. Explain what it means to be trans, and decide if you want to pursue relations with the person based on their responses, not their sexual label. :) Let her know you may be on T one day, and that it means you will probably be hairy and have a small dick/huge clit, and find out how she feels about this: ask her how she feels about body hair, how she feels about things stereotypically considered to be masculine body traits.
Many of the 'lesbians' and 'former lesbians' I've met have more pansexual tendencies, some of them even realize later on in life that they're transsexual themselves and therfore, 'straight' with their dating of women! Just as with straight people, many gays have not really experimented with the boundaries of their orientation. Some of them honestly don't want to; others just haven't thought about it or had the chance to experiment and discover. A surprising amount of lesbians simply identify that way because they have 'ended up' dating other women more than anything, haven't discovered the boundaries of their orientation, and/or simply haven't had the chance to date a transguy or other-gendered person who is appealing to them. We're kind of like unicorns, most people, gay or not, haven't knowingly encountered us often enough to have had the chance to date us. :D Benefit of the doubt, anyone?
Quote from: Cairus on December 10, 2009, 06:28:47 PM
Let her know you may be on T one day, and that it means you will probably be hairy and have a small dick/huge clit, and find out how she feels about this: ask her how she feels about body hair, how she feels about things stereotypically considered to be masculine body traits.
Hey :"[...
My ex didn't mind my hair and my umm larger than average thing...
Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2009, 10:53:07 PM
Of course not, but somehow 'assless chaps' sounds so much more - well, something.
Cheeky?
... sorry *hangs head in shame*.
Quote from: ccc on December 11, 2009, 03:03:44 AM
Hey :"[...
My ex didn't mind my hair and my umm larger than average thing...
That's good for you, bro. I'm not saying they're *supposed* to mind, but if you're an ftm thinking of dating a lesbian, who is supposedly 'into women', then it's a good idea to get to know how comfortable she is with masculinity and secondary sexual characteristics common amongst males, beforehand, so you can reaffirm that she isn't just dating you ''cause you're so smooth and like a woman right now'. :)
Maybe it's just my own ignorance, but I don't understand how a lesbian, is going to be in a LT relationship with a transMAN. I understand why a lot of trans guys stick around in that "crowd", it's comfortable, and in some cases you were once a part of that group. But, lesbians, like women. They enjoy the same things, sexually, as men do. Boobs and vagina.
Dating. Yike. It's certainly not easy being a transdude and trying to navigate the dating scene. I never thought I'd really have to worry about it, because I was already married when I started T. Imagine the shock divorce was, and realizing I was suddenly odd man out in the dating scene.
Right now, I'm tentatively "dating" a straight girl who's incredibly into me, and is willing to see past my anatomy. I have found women to be far more accepting... maybe some cultural difference that allows them to focus more on personality than anatomy. I think the best approach is to be honest. Anyone I'm thinking of dating, I tell I'm ftm. If he or she isn't okay with it, obviously he or she is hardly the right person for me.
SD
Quote from: Teknoir on December 11, 2009, 05:48:06 AM
Cheeky?
... sorry *hangs head in shame*.
Quote
BAD BOY. No ice cream for you tonight.
NO, no, no, Cheeky chaps is the brand name....
Quote from: Arch on December 12, 2009, 03:11:47 AM
BAD BOY. No ice cream for you tonight.
Too late :P
Quote from: LordKAT on December 12, 2009, 03:30:49 AM
NO, no, no, Cheeky chaps is the brand name....
I just googled that.
You just made a bad pun even worse. I tip my hat to you, good sir!
Temptation won.
QuoteWelcome to Cheeky Chaps™, your one stop shop for unique, classy, sassy, and sexy chaps!
Classy? Where?
Classy? Where?
Well at least once a year the the Folsom Street Fair. One of the more 'out there' events in SF, right up there with the Love Parade and the HowWeird Festival.
NSFW
http://www.folsomstreetfair.com/photos/folsom-2009/index.php?page=1 (http://www.folsomstreetfair.com/photos/folsom-2009/index.php?page=1)
And remember, you can't abbreviate Not Safe For Work, without SF right in the middle of it.
Quote from: tekla on December 12, 2009, 11:03:39 AM
Well at least once a year the the Folsom Street Fair. One of the more 'out there' events in SF, right up there with the Love Parade and the HowWeird Festival.
I really want to go to the Love Parade!
I kinda like the HowWeird myself - more a steampunk/burner deal, where LoveParade is more a EuroDisco deal. But they are all fun, no doubt about it. They are also for adults only, and pretty open minded adults at that. It's us in SF, and we like it. If you don't, fine, stay where you are and don't come here.
LoveParade
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1&q=loveparade+sf+photos&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20 (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1&q=loveparade+sf+photos&sa=N&start=0&ndsp=20)
HowWeird
http://mvgals.net/gallery/howweird-051009 (http://mvgals.net/gallery/howweird-051009)
And... if you go to those three events looking for someone to make love to and fail, give it up, you ain't never gonna get any.
Tekla, you said:
And, then, do all the hard work. Pay attention to them. Cater to them - they expect it. They don't think its a form of oppression, they think of it as respect. Most women/girls expect that all the social formalities and graces (opening doors, carrying stuff like a pack mule, opening doors while carrying stuff like a pack mule, pulling the chair out, helping with the coat, etc) will be carried out. They don't think 'oh that's nice' they think "That's Right!'.
Really?? See when I used to think "I must be a woman" I would hear this sort of thing and think "that is such a load of f*k'n bull crap!". But then 'other' women would say, well, actually it's not. Eventually I realised I'm not like them...blah blah.
But to be honest, I'm still not 100% convinced. Do all women want this or just some? Or do you just assume they want it that way and they're too polite to contradict you? Or are only hetero women like this?
So, would you mind if I posted the above quote as a seperate thread and asked those who identified as women to respond to it? I'm really curious to see if they think you've got it right. But I'll only do it with your permission ofcourse (or you can post it if you like).
Quote from: Cairus on December 10, 2009, 06:28:47 PM
Hun, I noticed that a lot of users are ushering you not to be out about being trans. The thing is, while it's totally understandable that they do not relish 'outing themselves' unnecessarily, (I'm not being down on them- it's very reasonable to not want/need to tell people what's in your pants when it doesn't need to be their business) there is nothing wrong with you being open about your identity if you yourself are comfortable with it, and from the sounds of it, it could very well help to negate unwanted expectations/views of you.
The truth of the matter is, if you are just out as a guy, and not as trans, well... You are a guy, but due to the ratio of cisgendered guys to transsexual ones, it'll be assumed that you're cisgendered. Or worse, since you're pre-T and may not pass 100%, if you aren't out about being a transguy or at least a guy, people may even simply assume you're a woman, blargh! And when your lover 'finds out' that you aren't cisgendered, there could be problems- so if you're comfortable being out as a transguy, by all means, let people know so you don't get stuck in a drama crapstorm with someone who expects/assumes you're cisgendered and discovers (possibly with utter dismay!) that you are not!
I know you were saying before that you're wary about dating someone who identifies as lesbian, because they might try to see you as a woman- the thing is, most 'straight' men will do the same, and 'straight' girls have the potential to freak out and blow up or not be interested at all, as well, due to the 'trans status'. My advice is, don't be too scared of experimenting with dating a gay girl, because really, if you avoid gay girls because they 'might be weird to you', you're judging lesbians in the same way you DO NOT want other people to judge *you*, in regards to dating, as a transguy. With any gender, sex, or orientation, there is the potential for your lover to try to see you in ways that are more appealing to them; avoiding gay women will not eliminate potential for this to happen.
Honestly, since you're comfortable being out as trans, wear it on your sleeve so people 'know what they're getting into', and then date whoever is appealing to you, really. Issues are a possibility for transpeople with any orientation or sex or gender, so don't be too afraid. After all, you don't want other people acting afraid or hesitant about you, so do other gender identities/sexual orientations a favor by not stereotyping them too much. ;) It's unfortunate that many romantic relationships between a transperson and just about anyone else has to have a Trans 101 at some point, but since you're out as trans, may as well bring it up from the get-go and get a feel for how understanding your love interest is, and go from there.
Be upfront. If a lesbian girl is interested in you, assert your male identity and explain it to her, to make sure you're both on the same page and you're not being objectified as female-bodied. Explain what it means to be trans, and decide if you want to pursue relations with the person based on their responses, not their sexual label. :) Let her know you may be on T one day, and that it means you will probably be hairy and have a small dick/huge clit, and find out how she feels about this: ask her how she feels about body hair, how she feels about things stereotypically considered to be masculine body traits.
Many of the 'lesbians' and 'former lesbians' I've met have more pansexual tendencies, some of them even realize later on in life that they're transsexual themselves and therfore, 'straight' with their dating of women! Just as with straight people, many gays have not really experimented with the boundaries of their orientation. Some of them honestly don't want to; others just haven't thought about it or had the chance to experiment and discover. A surprising amount of lesbians simply identify that way because they have 'ended up' dating other women more than anything, haven't discovered the boundaries of their orientation, and/or simply haven't had the chance to date a transguy or other-gendered person who is appealing to them. We're kind of like unicorns, most people, gay or not, haven't knowingly encountered us often enough to have had the chance to date us. :D Benefit of the doubt, anyone?
I admit I got lazy about checking this thread. Partly because so many of you just told me to just try to pass as a cis guy and deal with the trans thing later.
I think your advice is some of the most sound I've received yet, as well as the most understanding. Thank you.
I have met people almost exclusively online but I havent had a single successful relationship yet. I think my life up till now has been all about finding myself, now I have figured all this stuff out I don't know how to describe myself on online dating sites.
I know the relationship I would like but I think I need to wait before it can happen. Until I am feeling better about myself I don't think I can expect another person to love me.
If we're talking about hookups, that's different. I have to admit I have hooked up just for sex and kept it at that but its something I see as a completely different page to my love life. I am probably going to give this up too, because I obsess more about how the person is seeing me and get no pleasure out of it!
I think the moral is to wait until you are feeling good with yourself before letting others in to your world.
I have a girlfriend on the internet. We've chatted for months. She's pre-everything MtF
I thought for sure she'd reject me since she's Asexual and what I thought Aromantic but surprisingly she didn't. I'm happy. Like with every relationship I'm in, it'll probably end but I'll hope that it doesn't
All my relationships started from guys I met online thru whatever site I was apart of. One was before I came out as a Transguy, my hubby (current) married him then came out. Next was a BF we both shared...he didn't work out, and last BF we are still with and he's dealing with his house so he can move in with us. We've all 3 been together since march of this year.
Both are gay cismales, but all their life portrayed themselves as 'straight'. They now consider themselves gay and see me as a male despite not being on T yet. They do exist out there and don't discount online. Sure it might not always work out, but neither do those started face to face. It's a valid option, tho hard if you live far from them. I wish you luck tho =D
Quote from: Kurzar on December 22, 2009, 02:01:34 PM
All my relationships started from guys I met online thru whatever site I was apart of. One was before I came out as a Transguy, my hubby (current) married him then came out. Next was a BF we both shared...he didn't work out, and last BF we are still with and he's dealing with his house so he can move in with us. We've all 3 been together since march of this year.
Both are gay cismales, but all their life portrayed themselves as 'straight'. They now consider themselves gay and see me as a male despite not being on T yet. They do exist out there and don't discount online. Sure it might not always work out, but neither do those started face to face. It's a valid option, tho hard if you live far from them. I wish you luck tho =D
You know I am very jealous of you! I think to be with a pair of gay men that see me as a man too is like my dream. I am very happy to hear that such combinations exist out there and can work out. :)
Quote from: Alessandro on December 22, 2009, 02:59:10 PM
You know I am very jealous of you! I think to be with a pair of gay men that see me as a man too is like my dream. I am very happy to hear that such combinations exist out there and can work out. :)
It's far from easy. With all the depression I'm going thru and suicidal tendencies, it's put our relationships in a vice many times. They back me 100%, but my 0 self esteem makes things rough.
Quote from: chris_gqueering on December 13, 2009, 10:18:07 AM
Tekla, you said:
And, then, do all the hard work. Pay attention to them. Cater to them - they expect it. They don't think its a form of oppression, they think of it as respect. Most women/girls expect that all the social formalities and graces (opening doors, carrying stuff like a pack mule, opening doors while carrying stuff like a pack mule, pulling the chair out, helping with the coat, etc) will be carried out. They don't think 'oh that's nice' they think "That's Right!'.
Really?? See when I used to think "I must be a woman" I would hear this sort of thing and think "that is such a load of f*k'n bull crap!". But then 'other' women would say, well, actually it's not. Eventually I realised I'm not like them...blah blah.
But to be honest, I'm still not 100% convinced. Do all women want this or just some? Or do you just assume they want it that way and they're too polite to contradict you? Or are only hetero women like this?
So, would you mind if I posted the above quote as a seperate thread and asked those who identified as women to respond to it? I'm really curious to see if they think you've got it right. But I'll only do it with your permission ofcourse (or you can post it if you like).
See, I don't think "that's Right!".. I think "WOW! A guy who actually acts like a gentleman!" LOL- then again... depending on the day I might think " I can open the D*mn door myself! Get out of my way!"
Depends on if I feel particularly feminist. :)
I think almost everything else was spot on though. There does seem to be this persistant thought that straight women will freak or not be accepting, but I just don't think that's true. Maybe I have a more open group of friends but I know that of the women I know... there would be maybe one who would reject a man based on his having a small/ non functioning/ no- penis. And she's a whore anyway. :P I think the women who would actually do that are few and far between.
Quote from: FlorDeLuna on December 22, 2009, 09:40:20 PM
See, I don't think "that's Right!".. I think "WOW! A guy who actually acts like a gentleman!" LOL- then again... depending on the day I might think " I can open the D*mn door myself! Get out of my way!"
Depends on if I feel particularly feminist. :)
I think almost everything else was spot on though. There does seem to be this persistant thought that straight women will freak or not be accepting, but I just don't think that's true. Maybe I have a more open group of friends but I know that of the women I know... there would be maybe one who would reject a man based on his having a small/ non functioning/ no- penis. And she's a whore anyway. :P I think the women who would actually do that are few and far between.
How would you feel about that in a culture where someone opens the door for you no matter what's between your legs? ;D
And I agree, I think a lot of FTMs are underestimating straight women, women or people in general when it comes to this thing. We're experiencing this problem every second of our lives, but to other people it's not nearly as big to them. Hence why it's so hard to get some people to understand, but in my experience I've known a lot of straight women who didn't care at all.
Have a little more faith, guys.
Well some of us are so used to being ignored, patronized, and otherwise devalued for what's between our legs that it's no wonder some of us underestimate just how accepting a potential partener can be.
It's also kinda hard to accept acceptance from someone else while you still hate your own body.
I have no solution, that's just my take on the problem. Some of us don't lack faith without a reason.
Quote from: Teknoir on December 23, 2009, 01:47:14 AM
Well some of us are so used to being ignored, patronized, and otherwise devalued for what's between our legs that it's no wonder some of us underestimate just how accepting a potential partener can be.
It's also kinda hard to accept acceptance from someone else while you still hate your own body.
I have no solution, that's just my take on the problem. Some of us don't lack faith without a reason.
And I go through all of that, especially being patronized.
I don't like my body for many reasons either. Gender reasons, constant pain, disorders, etc... but it's not very realistic to think this way when there's a huge world out there with several different kinds of people and loads of proof of successful relationships that are able to see passed our conditions. I see people almost every day underestimate technology and other people and it blows my mind.
Let me put it this way, and to clarify I'm not making jabs at people when I say this or be patronizing, but crawling seems a lot safer than if you were standing. When you're standing the fall is a lot longer and more painful, and when you're crawling around it's easier to resume the crawling position, right? But the thing is, when you're on the floor all you see is the crap on the ground and when you look up, the good things seem so far away and so you don't really see it... but in turn no one really sees you, because they've got better things to do than look at the ground. However, if you actually stand up and learn to see the good things then you start to realize that crawling around isn't worth it.
And this is the thing. Low expectations might work if you're going to see a movie, but in life? Very rarely does someone come to 'save' you, and if they do it's usually when you've gotten fed up. I think we all know that, hence why some of us have decided to do something about it in whatever way that may be is up to them. But we're on this site, so we know this. And honestly, I think some of us are creating more negativity by underestimating and having low expectations. Is it your fault? Not you being transgendered or having difficult things to deal with, or heck, feeling bad about it... but you can make yourself feel a lot worse than necessary.
A stranger might not make you feel better about your dysphoria, I agree, but it's more about us than it is about someone else. Like I said, very rarely does someone come along and 'save' us, a lot of this is about how we deal with it, not someone else.
See, I don't think "that's Right!".. I think "WOW! A guy who actually acts like a gentleman!"
For the women I know who use that - and they both have a highly personal way of expressing that phrase - its based on two things. First, they are aware they are dealing with men (and they are people who know men and are very comfortable with them), and men need (and want) direction and almost constant reassurance (at least when dealing with women). So, in that sense I always took it as a reassuring deal, that yes, I was doing the right thing, behaving in the right way and all that. Kind of in the same way a good boss goes around and keeps encouraging people to keep up the good work.
Second, and perhaps more important. I suppose you could use either of two words here - 'boundaries' or 'standards.' They have some sort of general idea of what they want (if not an exacting very specific one) and they are not going to take less than that (or you better rise up to that). Like the Fair where they have those signs on the carnival attractions: You must be this tall to ride kind of deal.
I suppose I could have put it "Yo, yo Homeboy! This is the way we roll, and if you want to roll with us you better get on board."
And to be sure, there are lot of women in the world who are far more interested in what's in your wallet then in your pants. They have expectations of a standard of living and if they don't think its going to be you providing it, the rest does not matter at all.