My wife and I got into an argument about how I benefited from male privilege and that makes it inappropriate for me to discuss women's rights. I explained that I didn't get much benefit from being male and in fact had been abused repeatedly by men throughout my life. Her point is that being on the male team at all is enough to be guilty.
I began to ponder these issues and thought I would bring them up here for discussion.
Should MTF's be mindful that we are seen as being beneficiaries of male privilege?
Are we all guilty of oppressing women no matter what we did for the women's movement in our lives?
Are we guilty by simply by genetics?
Is is proper for transwomen to discuss women's issues with natal women?
Maggie
Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 14, 2009, 10:43:21 AM
My wife and I got into an argument about how I benefited from male privilege and that makes it inappropriate for me to discuss women's rights. I explained that I didn't get much benefit from being male and in fact had been abused repeatedly by men throughout my life. Her point is that being on the male team at all is enough to be guilty.
I began to ponder these issues and thought I would bring them up here for discussion.
Should MTF's be mindful that we are seen as being beneficiaries of male privilege?
Are we all guilty of oppressing women no matter what we did for the women's movement in our lives?
Are we guilty by simply by genetics?
Is is proper for transwomen to discuss women's issues with natal women?
Maggie
Clearly there isn't going to be a single answer to this and the basic premise is flawed because not all transwomen go through the same life path.
For example although I was technically male I was one of the very lucky few who had an "almost" female childhood. For various reasons, the full import of which I didn't discover until decades later, I grew up, with my parents help, somewhat in between genders.
I transitioned permanently and had SRS before my adult life had really begun. In effect I have lived almost all my life as a female although technically I am still Trans MtF, a label that I am happy to wear. But clearly I represent a different prospect to someone who transitions at 40+ having already risen to the top of some corporate tree as all my significant achievements in life have been in the guise of a woman.
Genetics doesn't work either, because there are natal XY females and indeed XX males - they are rare but they do exist.
So I don't think there is a right answer here other than to say that it depends entirely on the transwoman and, maybe in part, how early in life they transitioned.
Should MTF's be mindful that we are seen as being beneficiaries of male privilege? Yes. The same as I am mindful that I enjoy white privilege. No matter how a male bodied person behaves or presents themselves, they still benefit from being seen as men and are not subject to the treatment women receive based on their sex. They may be seen as effeminate men, as less than ideal, etc. but they still benefit from not receiving the treatment women do. This changes with transition of course. They also benefit from not being raised in a world where they are considered second class citizens based on their sex. This was not their choice or fault, however, being raised female has certain effects on the psyche. The more and more I pass as male, the more I realize the truth of this.
Are we all guilty of oppressing women no matter what we did for the women's movement in our lives? No. The system is what it is. Male or male-born people are not at fault; it's just the way it is.
Are we guilty by simply by genetics? No.
Is is proper for transwomen to discuss women's issues with natal women? Most definitely. I think transwomen are in an excellent position to speak on women's rights if they so choose. They are women raised as men only to be thrust into into a world where they are suddenly seen as less than. Who better to understand the female condition? Ciswomen lack the point of reference. There's no woman in a better position to fight for women's rights than one who has fought for her womanhood while turning her back on male privilege.
Quote from: Nero on December 14, 2009, 12:08:04 PM
Are we all guilty of oppressing women no matter what we did for the women's movement in our lives? No. The system is what it is. Male or male-born people are not at fault; it's just the way it is.
And the feminist who found all male guilty and all women opposed are themselves the very one guilty of reinforcing that notion.
Quote from: Keroppi on December 14, 2009, 12:17:02 PM
And the feminist who found all male guilty and all women opposed are themselves the very one guilty of reinforcing that notion.
Hi Keroppi,
I'm not sure what you mean.
Quote from: Nero on December 14, 2009, 12:08:04 PMNo. The system is what it is. Male or male-born people are not at fault; it's just the way it is.
I would disagree with that. I would say that male privilege came into existence through the action of men/males, but that it
stays in existence through the action of both males and females.
So I would say that if MtFs shouldn't be able to discuss women's rights because of 'male privilege', then many if not most women shouldn't be able to either! Which of course is ridiculous.
The problem is in the categorization. 'You are or were X, so your opinion on Y is less relevant'. I think people's opinions should be judged on the merit of the opinion itself. Anything else is just another form of bigotry.
Quote from: Ketsy on December 14, 2009, 12:19:44 PM
I would disagree with that. I would say that male privilege came into existence through the action of men/males, but that it stays in existence through the action of both males and females.
So I would say that if MtFs shouldn't be able to discuss women's rights because of 'male privilege', then many if not most women shouldn't be able to either! Which of course is ridiculous.
The problem is in the categorization. 'You are or were X, so your opinion on Y is less relevant'. I think people's opinions should be judged on the merit of the opinion itself. Anything else is just another form of bigotry.
True. Nobody's opinion is more or less important than anyone else's but transsexual people would seem to have an advantage at seeing both sides of the privilege thing.
Yeah know, I always wondered about that entire male privilege/white privilege. Historically sure, but I look out and see all sorts of women, all sorts of not white people doing very well. They do seem to have something in common in that they are in some way or another highly educated, extremely motivated, supremely confident. So I wonder about statements like They may be seen as effeminate men, as less than ideal, etc. but they still benefit from not receiving the treatment women do. in that I think most of the men I've ever met would much rather have a strong woman to work with than an effeminate male. Growing up as an effeminate male is pretty brutal and most have lost all motivation and confidence which I think is the real key to the whole privilege deal. Yes it is there, yes it may be far easier for some to get there, but unless your real rich it tends not to be so much confirmed as taken.
But everyone is involved in the discussion of woman's rights. Because woman's rights involves everyone. How is anything going to change if you exclude all males from that conversation? So men, women, Tpersons, kids, adults - everyone is in on this, because it affects everyone in the end.
Quote from: tekla on December 14, 2009, 12:41:11 PMGrowing up as an effeminate male is pretty brutal and most have lost all motivation and confidence which I think is the real key to the whole privilege deal.
Maybe we should start getting on about born-in-the-right-sex privilege or heteronormative privilege and so on :P.
But yes, I agree with everything you said.
Quote from: Nero on December 14, 2009, 12:08:04 PM
Should MTF's be mindful that we are seen as being beneficiaries of male privilege? Yes. The same as I am mindful that I enjoy white privilege. No matter how a male bodied person behaves or presents themselves, they still benefit from being seen as men and are not subject to the treatment women receive based on their sex. They may be seen as effeminate men, as less than ideal, etc. but they still benefit from not receiving the treatment women do. This changes with transition of course. They also benefit from not being raised in a world where they are considered second class citizens based on their sex. This was not their choice or fault, however, being raised female has certain effects on the psyche. The more and more I pass as male, the more I realize the truth of this.
This is a point that she made. I will never know what she endured as a girl being raised as a second class citizen. However, as an effeminate child, I was beaten and treated terribly by boys and men because I wasn't male enough. It gave them license to abuse. That is different than being dismissed as a girl. I didn't see any girls being beaten by gangs of boys. Of course some were being beaten by their fathers as my wife was.
My point was that as a gender variant boy, I wasn't welcomed into the boy's club, instead they nearly killed me. Then later in life when I could not understand or deal with male bonding or pissing contents in grad school or the workplace, I was again abused or dismissed. Ultimately, I could not progress in my company so quit, never to be hired again. I started my business to get away from men.
So to be lumped into a pool of the common male really hurts. I understand why she hates men, but I have the scars to show that they weren't good to me either.
Maggie
Quote from: Nero on December 14, 2009, 12:19:24 PM
Hi Keroppi,
I'm not sure what you mean.
Basically this:
Quote from: Ketsy on December 14, 2009, 12:19:44 PM
I would disagree with that. I would say that male privilege came into existence through the action of men/males, but that it stays in existence through the action of both males and females.
I guess I have seen "male privilege", I have also seen "female privilege" and I have seen "management privilege" (where managers can get away with something that others would get fired for).
But truthfully I would have loved to have been born a woman and been considered (by some, not by me) as a second class citizen.
Sarah L.
Late reply since I'm under the weather today, but I plugged this bit in the wiki https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans-misogyny (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans-misogyny) based on the pams house blend piece on men who fear to be minus penis.
One theory to this is that gender variant anatomical males "threaten" the (personal) masculinity or dominance of males in a patriarchal social structure. This is often tied to misogyny on the belief that women are "lesser" then men.
or, so called privilege is based on control, rationalizing it by thinking others as "less then" (males or white persons, depending on context)
just my 2 cents (reposted)
Even Men can discuss women's issues. Some of them even have the woman's point of view, because they see the underlying issue, complaint or goal.
Just because they are Men does not mean that they don't care about women's issues. Especially if there is a woman in their life.
And I really think that this 'Male Privilege" is just a smoke screen to cover-up the possible loss of their control. Which they only have because women give them the permission to have it. That is what the Feminist Movement was showing Men. Women can and do control a lot more than they we give themselvesourselves credit for.
JMHO,
Janet
So what are you saying Maggie,we are not truly excepted by male or female We must be some where inbetween. Nice
Sarah
What's this "privilege" you speak of.
Coming from the other side of the issue, I've been told I should feel "privileged that men want to be with me, and that I'm supposed to be escorted (yes, i live in that kind of town) places".
It's not a privilege if you you don't want it.
I can think of quite a few damn good reasons why anyone wouldn't want to be a man. I can also think of just as many reasons why anyone wouldn't want to be a woman.
Yes, I would far rather be male, but I can understand why people transition away from it (Now why can't we just switch bodies?)
Feel free to yell at me if I'm being out of line, but I feel your wife was completly disrespecting you, by saying that you're guilty (of what? being born the wrong sex?) because of your body.
Men can care about womens rights..why the heck can't you?
I was raised white and male. I benefited from both of those, although I've lived places where being white was a disadvantage. I was also raised middle-class in the US, with expectations of education and achievement. I benefitted from all of that.
In cultures that make a place for their transgendered, we are often celebrated because of our ability to see both sides, to experience both.
One example is that as Kate I am more vulnerable than I was. I knew this would be true, but to experience it is a different thing. When I mention this to women, they all go: Well, of course. When I mention it to men, they go: Huh?
You don't have to be one of the oppressed to understand that oppression hurts the oppressive society as well as the oppressed.
As a great man said: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." (Martin Luther King Jr)
Maggie, your wife is saying you don't understand what it was like to live her life. But it is also true that she doesn't understand what it was like to live yours. We are all different; we are all the same.
- Kate
Quote from: tekla on December 14, 2009, 12:41:11 PM
Yeah know, I always wondered about that entire male privilege/white privilege. Historically sure, but I look out and see all sorts of women, all sorts of not white people doing very well. They do seem to have something in common in that they are in some way or another highly educated, extremely motivated, supremely confident. So I wonder about statements like They may be seen as effeminate men, as less than ideal, etc. but they still benefit from not receiving the treatment women do. in that I think most of the men I've ever met would much rather have a strong woman to work with than an effeminate male. Growing up as an effeminate male is pretty brutal and most have lost all motivation and confidence which I think is the real key to the whole privilege deal. Yes it is there, yes it may be far easier for some to get there, but unless your real rich it tends not to be so much confirmed as taken.
Yes, but not to take anything away from what effeminate males go through, female born persons go through something different. Yes, males who don't conform to the status quo suffer, they surely do. But it's not the same as what female born persons go through, just as surely as anything I suffer through as a white person is not the same thing as a person of color goes through. I may suffer as a poor white person, but I will not be subject to the same treatment a black person is. That's all I'm saying.
Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 14, 2009, 10:43:21 AMShould MTF's be mindful that we are seen as being beneficiaries of male privilege?
I think its always wise to be mindful of someone else's point-of-view when discussing or debating anything. Especially if the resulting conversation may end with one of the participants sleeping on the couch. ;)
QuoteAre we all guilty of oppressing women no matter what we did for the women's movement in our lives?
I don't think so. People are entitled to whatever opinion they wish on the matter, but I personally would be offended if I were actually accused of oppressing women.
QuoteIs is proper for transwomen to discuss women's issues with natal women?
I certainly don't view it as improper. As with any good conversation, as long as one brings a thinking cap, I don't see a problem.
Regardless of genitalia you possess, if you do get out and mingle with John Q. Public and generally are perceived as a woman, you're probably going to have a tangible interest in some womens issues. It seems to me this holds true especially if you are a MtoF entering the workforce.
Okay, I was going to answer, but Nero already answered for me. Basically, everything he said is what I would say. The only thing I'd add is that we are all culpable for the patriarchy, some more than others.
I think there tends to be a misunderstanding of what privilege really means, so I'll address that:
Here's the thing about privilege: everyone has some. Nearly everyone lacks some. So all of us trans women who had a rough time growing up among boys, well, that just means we didn't have cis privilege or macho privilege or whatever. Everyone recognizes the gradations of privilege based on looks and femininity among women; well men have that too.
I had an awful childhood, but it's still as plain as day to me that I have experienced male privilege. In conversation, people have listened to me even when my ideas weren't as worthwhile, or when I was saying the same thing as a woman who was being ignored. I was encouraged to go into math and science in ways that my sisters weren't, despite two very supportive, mathematical parents and a very progressive school atmosphere. I haven't had to worry about studying late on campus and walking home alone. However much I hated how I looked, nobody ever told me I need to lose weight, take better care of my fingernails, wear more or less makeup, etc. Nobody ever leered at me in a threatening way when I went to the beach. I haven't had to worry when I went to parties that I'd get something slipped into my drink and wake up to a man raping me.
Being raised a boy with sisters shows you a lot about how boys and girls, men and women are treated differently in this society. Most of it is subtle. It's just in the air; it's as easy as breathing for us all to participate.
No, I didn't benefit as much as many men I've known. I've always been seen as something between effeminate and just plain peculiar. And the pre-transitional lack of cis privilege (which is quite different from the post-transitional experience) sure as hell sucks, in a way I don't expect any cis person can ever fully grasp. But that doesn't mean I wasn't afforded male privilege.
Well I lost the Male priviage card years ago. Plus yes I was picked on all the time growing up, Never did figure out why ;-). But even in the past life I had discussed with other women and seen how woman were treated in the workplace. Now I'm treated the same way. Not complaining, just how it is.
Beni
Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 14, 2009, 12:45:09 PM
This is a point that she made. I will never know what she endured as a girl being raised as a second class citizen. However, as an effeminate child, I was beaten and treated terribly by boys and men because I wasn't male enough. It gave them license to abuse. That is different than being dismissed as a girl. I didn't see any girls being beaten by gangs of boys. Of course some were being beaten by their fathers as my wife was.
My point was that as a gender variant boy, I wasn't welcomed into the boy's club, instead they nearly killed me. Then later in life when I could not understand or deal with male bonding or pissing contents in grad school or the workplace, I was again abused or dismissed. Ultimately, I could not progress in my company so quit, never to be hired again. I started my business to get away from men.
So to be lumped into a pool of the common male really hurts. I understand why she hates men, but I have the scars to show that they weren't good to me either.
Maggie
Hi Maggie.
I do too. Girls and later, women were horrible to me. But because I didn't receive my rightful 'girl' experience doesn't mean I got what boys go through. I was never abused for being a 'pussy' like many boys are, and like I imagine I would have been based on my likes and dislikes.
Quote from: Nero on December 15, 2009, 10:38:13 AM
Hi Maggie.
I do too. Girls and later, women were horrible to me. But because I didn't receive my rightful 'girl' experience doesn't mean I got what boys go through. I was never abused for being a 'pussy' like many boys are, and like I imagine I would have been based on my likes and dislikes.
Don't get me wrong, I never said that I got what girls got but to say that I benefited from being male just like other natal males is simply not true. There were many benefits that I was excluded from and I was abused because I wouldn't tow the gender line.
Maggie
You didn't benefit from being male because you weren't male. But that doesn't mean that you weren't afforded male privilege. Perhaps you didn't get it to the same extent as many, and certainly you lacked privilege in other areas, but if your wife thinks you benefitted, I'd take her word for it. Privilege isn't usually noticed by the people who have it, only by those who lack it. So ask her what she means, and listen to her.
But of course she ought to listen to you as well, both because you are married and because you have a worthwhile perspective regardless how male privilege has benefitted or hurt you.
Agreeing with Nero and K8. And Alyssa. Actually, Nero put everything as succinctly and eloquently as I would have wanted to, so thanks to him for saving me the trouble. ;)
Okay, so the consensus here is that transwomen have been privileged and natal women have not. I find this interesting and surprising.
I think this explains why some natal women are hostile towards transwomen. They see us as usurping femininity as another aspect of male privilege as unwelcome men barging into the women's club. I think my wife is squarely in this camp and she resents me for it.
Maggie
WOW! Very well put Alyssa. You said what was on my mind and on my lips, but note on paper. Thanks
Sarah
Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 15, 2009, 03:46:48 PM
Okay, so the consensus here is that transwomen have been privileged and natal women have not. I find this interesting and surprising.
So do I, and as I went through school in an officially sanctioned androgynous role and fully "transitioned" almost before I entered adulthood I can't really see how anyone could logically maintain that position with me.
To my mind it's not what chromasomes we originally had and whether we had to have various surgeries that counts - it's how we have lived in society and indeed worked that is the determining factor. So it isn't about being trans per-se - but about the extent to which prior to transition someone chose, or indeed did not choose to drink from the male cup!
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 14, 2009, 09:11:59 PM
I think there tends to be a misunderstanding of what privilege really means, so I'll address that:
Here's the thing about privilege: everyone has some. Nearly everyone lacks some. So all of us trans women who had a rough time growing up among boys, well, that just means we didn't have cis privilege or macho privilege or whatever. Everyone recognizes the gradations of privilege based on looks and femininity among women; well men have that too.
I had an awful childhood, but it's still as plain as day to me that I have experienced male privilege. In conversation, people have listened to me even when my ideas weren't as worthwhile, or when I was saying the same thing as a woman who was being ignored. I was encouraged to go into math and science in ways that my sisters weren't, despite two very supportive, mathematical parents and a very progressive school atmosphere. I haven't had to worry about studying late on campus and walking home alone. However much I hated how I looked, nobody ever told me I need to lose weight, take better care of my fingernails, wear more or less makeup, etc. Nobody ever leered at me in a threatening way when I went to the beach. I haven't had to worry when I went to parties that I'd get something slipped into my drink and wake up to a man raping me.
Very well put Alyssa, I was actually reared with 3brothers no sisters, my Mother was more part of my life after my transition, my brothers did exactly what they liked, but I was under her control a lot as I was now the daughter she always wanted, but now a girl with 3brothers I sort of lost that bond with them, well it was kinda weak anyway as I always felt different from them, even now when we are in family company, they stop chatting about ''men stuff'' if I just happen to walk into a room, I suppose I should be flattered that they just except me as a woman, yeah Iv lost my ''male privilege card'' but then in other ways Iv gained ''female privileges'' getting offered seats on trains and doors being helded open for me, men get a cheap hair cut if it doesn't turn out right nobodys notices, but when I get my perm and color done if it doesn't turn out just right somebody will definitely say ''omg pauline what have you done to your hair'' probably spented a small fortune, I could go on and on, when I resently complained in a store about a computer I had repaired, I definitely over heard the guy saying to his work mate ''women what would they know about computers'' say no more.
p
Let's not jump to conclusions. Having male privilege doesn't mean you have it to the same extent as others, nor that you keep it after you transition, though some effects (higher confidence in the areas of math, leadership, and basic intelligence, for instance) might stick around. Even if those effects linger for you, it doesn't make you a bad person or less of a woman; it just makes you a
more confident woman. Your wife might as well resent younger generations of women who have benefitted from feminist activism.
Let's also not forget that male privilege is not the only kind of privilege in the world. Being white, able-bodied, American, anglophone, employed, well-educated, middle- or upper-class, young, etc., all give you privilege. Being cisgendered is a biggie. One of the biggest, and one you wife eating up. But speaking for myself, on the social totem pole I'm preciously close to the top.
And Jenny, if you never really lived in a male role, that's a different story. But if you did, even if you didn't want to, people treated you differently as a result, and that guess you privilege, regardless whatever other oppression you might have experienced.
Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 15, 2009, 03:46:48 PM
Okay, so the consensus here is that transwomen have been privileged and natal women have not.
Reading the posts, I don't see this conclusion.
Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 15, 2009, 03:46:48 PM
They see us as usurping femininity as another aspect of male privilege as unwelcome men barging into the women's club. I think my wife is squarely in this camp and she resents me for it.
I think this comes from the idea that a trans-woman is a man disguising himself as woman. As such she will have the best of both worlds, while the cis-woman must suffer with only the advantages and disadvantages of being a woman. It's kind of like the trans-woman is holding dual citizenship. I don't know how you change that kind of thinking.
For me, I've found that as I was deciding to transition I knew I had to give up one to fully become the other. I had to hand in my passport and get a new one, with all the advantages and disadvantages that go along with that. Now I have not only given up whatever advantages I had because I was seen as male, I don't even get natural citizenship but will always be an immigrant – a naturalized citizen – even though this is where I belong.
- Kate
Well.... i dont know about you, but i was never male, i never sucked up that male function, and yes i do know how a physically born woman feels, because i AM a physically minded woman!
I agree with Maggie Kay and rejennyrated, I transioned in my teens, many a moon ago. :)
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 15, 2009, 06:31:09 PM
And Jenny, if you never really lived in a male role, that's a different story. But if you did, even if you didn't want to, people treated you differently as a result, and that guess you privilege, regardless whatever other oppression you might have experienced.
No really I didn't, but by the same token I haven't really had any oppression either. So I guess I kind of don't fully qualify to play on either team. I'm stuck in no-mans land in the middle. ::) Typical ;)
Quote from: rejennyrated on December 16, 2009, 02:21:22 AM
No really I didn't, but by the same token I haven't really had any oppression either. So I guess I kind of don't fully qualify to play on either team. I'm stuck in no-mans land in the middle. ::) Typical ;)
Maybe because you are NO MAN. I know, I know. Bad KAT!
I note here some are saying they had terrible childhoods, that's very sad and I empathise with them. I honestly can't agree myself with that stance. I enjoyed my childhood immensely, sadly I lost my Dad at age 12, but with two younger brothers, I enjoyed that period of my life.
Quote from: LordKAT on December 16, 2009, 02:40:43 AM
Maybe because you are NO MAN. I know, I know. Bad KAT!
ROFLMAO! :D Very very funny KAT! My partner reckons it's because I'm an alien. Her theory... I was planted here as a baby from a planet where they don't understand gender - so I can't fit in! ;D
Quote
I transitioned permanently and had SRS before my adult life had really begun. In effect I have lived almost all my life as a female although technically I am still Trans MtF, a label that I am happy to wear. But clearly I represent a different prospect to someone who transitions at 40+ having already risen to the top of some corporate tree as all my significant achievements in life have been in the guise of a woman.
Genetics doesn't work either, because there are natal XY females and indeed XX males - they are rare but they do exist.
So I don't think there is a right answer here other than to say that it depends entirely on the transwoman and, maybe in part, how early in life they transitioned.
Very similar to myself, in fact this forum is the only place I actually do have any contact with transwomen or transmen. Naturally it's fine by me, but I am glad my teens are many many years behind me. ;D
Kavall, I can only assume the being 'male' or 'female' is a privledge then?
I personally don't think of transgender post op's a third gender.
Do you think that being male is a privledge?
I am female, and only very secondly a MTF person. I truly never think of my gender and the life I lead as anything but female, and never did.
(I may be slightly misunderstanding you.)
Quote from: Kvall on December 16, 2009, 04:15:39 AM
Dianna, that is my point exactly. You are female, and therefore you cannot have male privilege any more than a cis woman could.
Okies, following you now Kavall. ;D
Part of it comes from being perceived as male whether you are or not. Not taking advantage of it (in the case of many of us MTFs) certainly reduces it but it is still there. Nowadays I can't help but notice I don't get as much automatic respect from males when I say something, when I have a clear opinion or idea of what I want it is passed off pretty easily, they have no problem talking over me and If I am more confident and unflinching after their dismissal I am a bitch. I supposedly am helpless and ignorant now. I'm gonna guess that's the opposite of male privilege, which I had before.
I certainly know about some males dismissing what one has to say, 'Oh another female with attitude' type thing.
Funny you know, I've had some men (hetero males) dismiss what I have to say, it only makes me more adamant. :icon_dance:
Quote from: mija on December 16, 2009, 04:27:32 AM
Part of it comes from being perceived as male whether you are or not. Not taking advantage of it (in the case of many of us MTFs) certainly reduces it but it is still there. Nowadays I can't help but notice I don't get as much automatic respect from males when I say something, when I have a clear opinion or idea of what I want it is passed off pretty easily, they have no problem talking over me and If I am more confident and unflinching after their dismissal I am a bitch. I supposedly am helpless and ignorant now. I'm gonna guess that's the opposite of male privilege, which I had before.
That sounds about right, at least for me. People talk over you all the time, don't trust you, wont listen, etc...
It's the 'privilege' bit that confuses me? What is a male privledge?
Kavall, I must retract what I said originally, you'd never believe I completed a year of sociology in my SW degree. ;-)
Mainly I tend to think, in most instances to be privledged in any sense it rather different to being born male for example. I discussed this with my brother for his opinion, he is married, male, heterosexual with 3 kids. He doesn't consider being 'male' as any different to some females who are so called 'privledged'. You cited wealth, a good example.
So even sociologically speaking, I personally just don't see being 'male' in the text we were referring to - as being a privledged birth position.
I have posted in a number of threads on this forum, but still tend to hold my own viewpoint.
MTF or FTM (can only speak post-op) is a major occurence or fact in ones life. (Surgically I am referring) I still do NOT see male classified at birth, to be a privledge any more than to be determined female at birth. (Mistakes as we all know do occur.) As I have stated elsewhere, I was raised as a 'boy' / 'male' child, I never ever think of myself as male or with male experience. I transitioned not that long after high school.
My experience as a child or a young teenager was never male, in fact, the true sense of the meaning.
Cheers ;D
Privilege is in Latin, literally, "Private Law" or something that only pertains to a few. Weather that private law is in place because of your wealth, your service, your honor, your experience, or you birth (and all of those are things that get you privilege) there are certain advantages open to you that are not open to other people.
So what?
Get over it.
Lots of people I know (myself included) have privilege as a result of doing really good stuff over a prolong period (decades) and we can just do our thing and not have to bother with the rules so much. Not because we're better than the rules, we've just transcended them.
Lots of people have privilege as a result of money. Does it make a difference if they inherited that money, or earned it all themselves? I met a girl, and yes, a girl, who is going to turn all of 21 in another week. She is already a millionaire. Is that going to change her life? Yup. Does she get accorded treatment that other people don't get as a regular part of their life? You bet your Taylor Swift they do. But should we stop that? Should we prohibit Taylor Swift from living like that just because everyone can't live like that?
Plus I don't see where all males are accorded male privilege, and I do see women who get the benefit of the doubt, so it's by no means universal - at least in the West.
Dianna,
I don't believe tekla was directing any kind of insult at you. She just stated her view on the topic.
I might getrid of it now, it wasn't meant for Kavall. It was meant for tekla.
(I have deleted it now LordKAT.)
I wasn't directing anything at anyone, I was just noting that privilege is not universal, that it happens for different reasons, and that its not necessarily bad.
The issues that I am faced with in dealing with natal women stem from these questions:
Am I supposed to feel guilty because I was offered and afforded male privilege? Do I have any culpability in perpetuating such an unfair system even if I didn't participate? Can I ever forgive myself for being male? EVEN if I hated it?
For me these issues are really important because I identify as a lesbian. I find that I am about as much as a man hater as my wife is but I can't have female peers in that because of my birth gender. She isn't a lesbian and doesn't relate to women either but males are next to slime mold in her opinion. She always had that view but has voiced it especially since I transitioned. I wonder why she married me.
Maggie
Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 16, 2009, 01:58:22 PM
Am I supposed to feel guilty because I was offered and afforded male privilege? Do I have any culpability in perpetuating such an unfair system even if I didn't participate? Can I ever forgive myself for being male? EVEN if I hated it?
How can you, or any of us who were born male, be held accountable for the actions of others? If others choose to treat me differently because of my skin color or gender presentation, they are responsible for that treatment, not me. And, since I'm not a mind-reader, how am I to know when I am being treated differently? It seems that these things aren't always visible.
Quote from: Beni on December 14, 2009, 09:19:42 PM
Well I lost the Male priviage card years ago. Plus yes I was picked on all the time growing up, Never did figure out why ;-). But even in the past life I had discussed with other women and seen how woman were treated in the workplace. Now I'm treated the same way. Not complaining, just how it is.
Beni
That one of the best replys, this whole discussion has a certain irony for me I remember when I was growing up, my Mother use to think men had it all, hated the way the world treated women, use to say ''its a man's world'' then living in a house with me 3brothers and Dad, none of us understood her, use to think she was just 1crazy woman.
Unlike my brothers I now understand how she felt because Im now a woman myself, my relationship improved with my Mother since I transition.
My brothers probably now think Im a crazy woman or just crazy to be a woman, yes there is Male Privilege but Im not complaining, thats the way things are, maybe I made a sacrifice by becoming a woman, Iv no regrets, I love just being a woman.
p
Wow, what an interesting discussion/problem. I have studied gender for a long time, and participated in many meetings about gender related issues. I am impressed with the varieties of experiences there are - and how important respecting that is. I am impressed with how respectful the discussion has been.
I would like to add my two quarters (inflation).
First, I believe that most women do not understand men any better than men understand women. Women are probably better at predicting male behavior than men are at predicting women's behavior - because oppressed people get good at predicting the oppressors' behavior. But understanding is a different thing and would lead to women treating men differently sometimes. In general, with notable exceptions, I believe men do not understand women because they learn early that being a man means not being anything like a woman. To understand someone you have to have empathy.
Second, male privilege is a sword that cuts the holder also. I am not saying we should excuse men's bad behavior because they are wounded - the wounds are self-inflicted. Part of learning to be male is giving up half of what it means to be human. Giving up, or being impaired in, one's ability to feel empathy, to be emotional, to be good at self-care, to be good at relationship. Being male pushes men to learn to be adversarial and controlling. Being able to be a CEO and fire hundreds of people to make a small profit requires a hardness and lack of human feeling. Choosing war (as opposed to defending yourself) requires learning messed up values. I learned to want to not be a man as commonly pictured. My awareness of my female nature was delayed or hidden for many years because I thought I just did not want to be (that kind of) male.
I still do not want to be male even though I know as a white educated middle class male I have advantages. Privilege also has costs. I do not mean to say that being oppressed is better - the costs of oppression are high and hard to escape. A person of privilege pays a self-imposed cost. I am trying to let go of that privilege as I learn to not impose the cost on myself.
For me, learning to be male, and the oldest "adapted" child of a disfunctional family, meant stuffing anything resembling self-awareness. Unlearning that has been difficult, especially as I kept running into this part of myself that insisted I did not just want to not be male. I wanted at least in part to be female. (Tilt! error message! WTF!) And part of what I am afraid of, in addition to the unknown, is my awareness that the advantages I enjoy pretending successfully to be male may be reduced or taken away altogether if I stop playing the role. I have seen how viscious people can be to feminine men and trans-people. I have also come to believe the cost for me to remain male and safely male-privileged would have been soul-death. So I am creeping out from behind.
May I add a note of gratitude for all the sharing people do here? I just did? OK Thank you.
Quote from: Kvall on December 16, 2009, 03:52:01 AM
I think the concept of passing privilege is important here, and that that is what some MTFs have. When I say "passing privilege" I'm referring to receiving privileges due to passing as the privileged group even though you are not actually a member of that group. Trans women cannot have actual male privilege because they are not male. But they may receive some privileges when read incorrectly as male--even on a daily basis for many years.
Not to compare oppressions, but saying that MTFs have male privilege is somewhat akin to saying that light-skinned black people have white privilege.
So my answer to whether MTFs have male privilege is no, because they are not male.
Funny, i was thinking of saying something about that. The term "passing" as used by trans people was borrowed from black Americans who were light-skinned enough to "pass" as white. Some of them took advantage of that fact and lived as white people despite being legally black (speaking of social contructions), and even for those who didn't, there have long been gradations of privilege and oppression regarding black people depending upon their skin tone.
So that's exactly my point: passable black people were specifically those ones afforded white privilege, for better or for worse.
But your point is well-taken: Being afforded privilege as a member of a group you don't actually belong to, whether it's based on race, gender, or whatever else, is a tough position of it's own, and tends to be oppressive in its own way. I certainly know how that feels.
So there's a semantic argument to be had over whether being afforded privilege by being wrongly perceived as a member of some class is tuly privilege; I think that the opposite situation -- say, being beaten to death because someone thought you were gay because you were a man and you were holding your brother's hand -- certainly counts as oppression.
Tekla's sort of right: privilege isn't necessarily a bad thing. The problem with is is precisely the "private" part of it, which implies that it's denied to others, often for competely illegitimate reasons, like race, sex, nationality, etc. And the overwhelming majority of human beings are members of some oppressed class. That doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority are suffering under terrible oppression. It's just a way to describe some problems in society.
So let's not freak out when someone says we have privilege. It's not an insult, but only a request for some empathy for those who lack it.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 14, 2009, 09:11:59 PM
In conversation, people have listened to me even when my ideas weren't as worthwhile, or when I was saying the same thing as a woman who was being ignored.
That really bothers me. But you have a great grasp of this issue, proof that transwomen definitely belong in the women's issues discussion. I really think nobody should be excluded though, because keeping secrets won't get anything done.
Some very interesting viewpoints here in this topic. Having said that, I still don't think either male or female as a birth right is accurate, a privledge. Someone above mentioned 'social constructs', now that sounds the best viewpoint I have heard.
When I studied "Human Differences", a subject I took in second year Uni (we don't call them colleges in Aust), I recall some very biased viewpoints being raised be the class (group of students) taking that subject, that is certain male students.
NB. Some students were only 2 years past high school, where I was a mature aged student, another term used in our Universities here in Australia. :)
Maggie-
I love the topic. And I can see a woman's point of view that we can never have lived through all of the experiences that a GG has. None of us can pop into a time machine and re-live our entire lives as female. But yet all of us who are MTF know we are female and have been forced to live as something we are not for some portion of our lives. Doesn't being MTF give us the unique perspective of understanding both genders. Haven't you ever had the experience of having to explain to a male friend what his girlfriend was really thinking? I suppose we are not the same as a GG, but are all GG's the same?
If a transsexual woman transitioned young, say at 18, can we say that she benefited from 'male privilege'?
Quote from: Valentina on December 18, 2009, 03:55:07 AM
If a transsexual woman transitioned young, say at 18, can we say that she benefited from 'male privilege'?
Or someone who never effectively passed as male? No, more like a Gay male -
some of the options available to men but not all!
Matilda, you don't have to be a beneficiary to know what it is; usually it's more obvious when you lack it. Nevertheless, I have met many women who claimed not to have experienced any denial of male privilege; the experience you describe isn't all that unusual. It depends a lot upon your circumstances. And overall I think it's a great thing -- the more women that don't feel beaten down by low expectations, snubs, fears for their safety, etc., the better. But I also worry that it can be a sign of complacency or obliviousness.
Of course, to whatever extent you lose male privilege, the earlier you transition, the earlier you lose it. But there are certainly effects of male privilege that affect children under 18. A lot of those affect young pre-transition trans women too, but usually in a different way: my grandmother didn't tell me I was fat when I was thirteen. I struggled with body image for reasons that were my own, not hers.
I don't know if things have changed, but I remember reading studies done 20 or 30 years ago that showed grade school teachers tended to call on and encourage boys while discounting and partially ignoring girls. At that same time, there were studies that showed this kind of behavior from parents and other care-givers during children's pre-school years.
Generally, it starts pretty early. And generally, people aren't consciously aware of it.
- Kate
I still say it is interesting to witness the viewpoints here, I still don't agree with all views.
Maybe young people should listen to these two video's below. Part 1 and Part 2 of Kim's story.
PART 1 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffHcpY7fCjU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffHcpY7fCjU)
PART 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg52wBzwV8k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg52wBzwV8k)
That sums it up in my belief, there is NO male privledge for MTF and NO female privledge for MTF.
Thank you.
Dianna.
(This girl Kim was televised on a national television program here in Australia on one of out 'free to air' channels.)
??? ??? ???
Kim Petras is hardly representative -- she transitioned really early. Existential quantifiers and universal quantifiers are not the same.
Female privilege doesn't exist in Western society. That's just a total misunderstanding of what privilege means, which I suspect is a big part of the reason you disagree.
I am saying and stating how it was and is for me, other people have another viewpoint, we live in a country that has 'freedom of speech' that's all.
No problem. I'm happy to hear people's points of view, as long as people aren't being abusive. That's the whole point of discussing topics around privilege. I try not to be, though I know I can get sarcastic. I apologize for whenever I have sounded that way. I was just really baffled by your reasoning in that post.
By the way, I've seen that program before, and really enjoyed it despite the many cheesy television cliches. Videoconferencing via dial-up modem!? Wow!!! :o By the way, it's a rare chance to hear Kim Petras' wonderful voice, undefiled by pitch correction software (at 1:50 in the second video). Kudos to them for the lack of pronoun failure! And I LOVED how they presented the anti-trans guy's arguments. He spoke his peace, and made himself look like a complete ass, when contrasted against Petras' life. Thank you for the reminder (even if I didn't understand how it related to what you were saying). :)
That guy that spoke up (Catholic) when cornered had NO answer.
I am a lapsed, lapsed catholic. But I'll say this, in the 70's when I was married, 'twas a roman catholic church, only to keep my mother happy.
About the only time in my life I have worn 'all white', I detest white alone.
You are most welcome Matilda. :)
Now a saying that I picked up in the States when a tourist in the 80's.
'Have a nice day'.
It's 20 past one in the afternoon here... ;)
Quote from: Maggie Kay on December 15, 2009, 03:46:48 PM
I think this explains why some natal women are hostile towards transwomen. They see us as usurping femininity as another aspect of male privilege as unwelcome men barging into the women's club. I think my wife is squarely in this camp and she resents me for it.
Maggie
Oh Maggie, You hit my tuning fork with a sledge hammer with this comment. I went on hormone therapy to decrease my libido because my wife was always play hurt games with sex. I didn't care that there would be feminizing effects because I was gender dysphoric. But when I started to develope breast she was angry, and when I induced lactation, to reduce my 75% plus probability of breast cancer, she went ballistic. I had crossed over into a womans area that I had no business entering. The sacrosanct womans private domain.
Randi1214
Lord only knows if this is a suitable thread to put a pic of my wedding day up in 1971.
Dianna & Brian
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv393%2FDurbsy%2F9e65132eDiBrian-1.jpg&hash=0816b3b899376ffa974dffa325597480adddff47)
I also did some catwalk modelling around that time.
Its a very pretty wedding photo Dianna, Brian is so handsome and your a very pretty girl, you don't have to answer personal questions but are you still married, did your husband except your situation, gosh I could start a whole new thread on trans girls getting married, what about Male Privilege in a marriage.
The reason Im asking Im engaged to my boyfriend and probably get married sometime next year, was to get married earlier this year but put things off for him to think things out as I had tolded him about my past.
Resently we where just discussing getting married, he is a very traditional guy bit old fashion in ways, discussing roles in marriage, in a joking and teasing way he seems to think household chores, polishing, cleaning dusting, cooking, washing and ironing is ''woman's work'' I know when I was growing up my Mother did absolutely everything. But things where different back then.
I know we can't have everything our own way, give and take all round, but I just can't see my Fiancé doing any of that boring women household chores stuff, when I do become his Wife I'II probably do all that stuff or ''woman's work'' as he calls it, cleaning cooking and ironing etc but I don't mind, thats the way things are. He does respect me as a woman and treats me like a lady.
Im really looking forward to getting married, I have my dress picked out, hope to have the whole fairy tale, beautiful bouquet, flowers in my headress, it really is a girl's big day, Im looking forward to it.
p
Quote from: pretty pauline on December 19, 2009, 04:42:21 PM
Its a very pretty wedding photo Dianna, Brian is so handsome and your a very pretty girl, you don't have to answer personal questions but are you still married, did your husband except your situation, gosh I could start a whole new thread on trans girls getting married, what about Male Privilege in a marriage.
The reason Im asking Im engaged to my boyfriend and probably get married sometime next year, was to get married earlier this year but put things off for him to think things out as I had tolded him about my past.
Resently we where just discussing getting married, he is a very traditional guy bit old fashion in ways, discussing roles in marriage, in a joking and teasing way he seems to think household chores, cleaning dusting, cooking, washing and ironing is ''woman's work'' I know when I was growing up my Mother did absolutely everything. But things where different back then.
I know we can't have everything our own way, give and take all round, but I just can't see my Fiancé doing any of that stuff, when I do become his Wife I'II probably do all that stuff or ''woman's work'' as he calls it, but I don't mind, thats the way things are. He does respect me as a woman and treats me like a lady.
Im really looking forward to getting married, I have my dress picked out, hope to have the whole fairy tale, beautiful bouquet, flowers in my headress, it really is a girl's big day.
p
No Pauline, I was divorced in 1980 and apart from personality clashes being a big factor, he once stated in a heated argument "You are no good for me, you can't have children!!!!" That was the biggest slap in the face back then for a long time, he did know re my trans when we were married.
Quote from: Dianna on December 18, 2009, 07:25:44 PM
I still say it is interesting to witness the viewpoints here, I still don't agree with all views.
Maybe young people should listen to these two video's below. Part 1 and Part 2 of Kim's story.
<editedoutforspace>
That sums it up in my belief, there is NO male privledge for MTF and NO female privledge for MTF.
Thank you.
Dianna.
(This girl Kim was televised on a national television program here in Australia on one of out 'free to air' channels.)
Oh yay, I uploaded that. Really happy to see people posting it. ;D
I personally hate it when people pull out the whole, "Your a guy so you have no idea what it's like" OR "Your a guy, that is why this person listened to you and not me" I hate being singled out as a male. I really Hate it with a passion. But none the less, I do not accept that males have seniority over females. I personally believe that Females have more control over males then they really think. But That is my opinion.
Well, you're not supposed to like it. If someone says that, it's unlikely they are trying to stroke your ego.
But if you're pre-transition and not out, they probably have no idea how much it hurts, even if it's false, but especially if it's true, by reinforcing their perception of you as male.