After reading through many many posts, it seems as though many of my trans peers are more worried about other's opinions (i.e. passing). Why do so many trans guys let this weigh on their self-confidence? Especially when the majority of the outside population are all sheep sharing the same social mores. I feel as though we let other's opinions invalidate our own claimed identity ->-bleeped-<- that!
I feel its a worry because if I don't pass - I get call 'she' and 'girl' and treated as such. Its all about how we see ourselves true - but its hard to walk out the door, dressed how I want as a guy, packing and in my own mind looking the part - like the man I am and have some tossa in the shop say 'miss' or 'thanks love'!!
Jay
I also share the sentiment that being feminized is annoying, whether you identify as male or female.
However, I find it disappointing that so many ->-bleeped-<- dudes allow ignorance of others to shoot down their morale, ESPECIALLY considering how empowering the acceptance of one's own transexual identity is... ya know?
I just hate that dudes feel less "male" because some random hetero told them otherwise, and feel that maybe talking about it will help.
eh.. I've never really had a problem passing if I tried to...
In fact I've always been seen as a guy more often than a girl throughout my entire life.
but in general:
I think its that the physical outside of who we are is the part that we've always been looking to change. I've always known my identity, but the outside world hasn't. Its the fact that the outside world is finally accepting you for who you've always known you are that is amazing. Passing is verification that FINALLY a trans person's outward self is a true (or at least very close) representation of who they are. Not passing is kind of like someone telling you you aren't who you think you are. Gender identity is a very visible thing... just knowing it for yourself isn't enough. Otherwise why transition at all?
As I said I don't have any issue passing, but if I did it wouldn't bother me that people didn't see me as a "typical sheep male" (semi using your terminology... one of the masses ect.) but it would bother me if they refused to see me as male all together.
Well, as much as people like to say otherwise, by human nature we pretty much automatically care what other people think. Many things, if not most, revolve somewhat around how other people feel about us, we definitely aren't solitary animals. So while in theory it would be cool if no trans guys got upset cos someone called him 'she', it's really almost impossible to not let that affect you. I don't think passing is the most important thing in transition, but being perceived as male by society is definitely an important aspect. Everyone wants to be seen as who they are.
Quote from: Kvall on January 09, 2010, 12:47:28 AM
I agree. Most people who say they don't care what other people think are lying. It's instinctive to care.
Agreed!
If I didn't care what other people thought I would go shirtless pretty much all of summer! But for the sake of social modesty I wear a shirt in public... for now at least. ::)
For me, "passing" is not really a huge deal.
Not until I bind anyway.I'm kind of a practical person who doesn't like to be in discomfort so when I'm called she/her/ma'am while unbound I just remind myself that it is "the price I pay for comfort". Also, I'm probably just used putting up with she/her/ma'am. However when bound and still called she/her/ma'am, then it makes me feel like I went to all the extra trouble and discomfort for nothing. :-\
On the flipside, it's an amazing feeling when someone refers to me as "sir".
It reminds me why I bother to bind in the first place and definitely can make an entire day that much better. ;D
Well my female body makes me insecure. And not passing is validation of my femaleness, which I deny.
I see myself as male, and I feel that as a male I should be acknowledged as such. Not passing could mean being pushed into the wrong gender role. I also don't really like people to make generalizations about me because of my female body. I know that people make generalizations all the time, but it really bothers me when I'm being generalized for my female body.
That said, it doesn't bother me so much that I don't pass because I'm a little more secure generally.
Like most of the others here, I think it's important that I pass because I want to be read as myself. I don't want or like people thinking I'm the wrong gender. I don't want to be judged by the standards of females, and I don't want to be treated as female.
Not passing doesn't make me unsure of myself, it's just awkward and irritating. I'll take being happy and comfortable over being angry and resentful any day - so I make every effort to pass.
Also, a very big part of it (ok... most of it) is for myself. I like seeing more of what I think I should look like in the mirror. I want to look male. I should look male. I like my appearance more the more male I look. It's nice to look in the mirror, and not see a sad trapped man in ugly drag looking back at me.
There are days when I see more of the old shell poking out than usual. Those are the days that I'm prone to feeling a little insecure (but only in my appearence. Like a "bad hair day", it's a "bad sex day". I still know who I am).
I think people in general get miffed when they don't pass because we feel a need to seen accurately by those around us, even if we don't particularly care about their positive / negitive reactions (the usual meaning of "I don't care what other people think").
We focus so much on how important it is for people to know what we are, but it's just as important for people to know what we're not.
It can get very damn lonely and fustrating when people keep thinking you are something you are not. Your "own tribe" won't accept you, and some other "weirdo tribe" you can't relate to thinks you're one of them (and subsequently, they don't like you because you don't fit in).
... And that's why people put things like band names, brand names, consumer products and overused catchphrases on t-shirts :laugh:
Ease of living. Humans gravitate towards acceptance; it is how the world operates. So it is natural to have a lot riding on whether you are accepted and passing or not.
Quote from: Eli on January 09, 2010, 04:31:31 AM
However when bound and still called she/her/ma'am, then it makes me feel like I went to all the extra trouble and discomfort for nothing. :-\
Yeah I feel like that. My face is so girly I can't pass anyway. But I still bind for my own peace of mind, even though it isn't helping me to pass.
Today I went for a haircut and thought I had done fairly well to pass until the hairdresser called me "darling" as I left. That was upsetting because despite presenting as male really strongly, all he saw as a girl. Also got ID'd today, again upsetting beause I felt I had been 'outed' despite not passing anyway. Its all a complex insecurity thing. Passing seems more important to me because I can't do it. I think for others its not such an issue.
i feel that when i don't pass my confidence is severely knocked, sometimes it gets to bad i just dont want to leave the house, it also gets me in this state of mind where i just think well if no-one is gunna see me as male then whats the point in all the crap i go through to appear male and then all sorts of horrible thoughts and actions appear, passing is HUGELY important to me
I wasn't so much worried about other people's opinions so much as just wanting to be seen as myself, which is male.
The in-between stage sucked, to be blunt.
Now that I pass 100%, I can just be me. Is my life perfect? No. But a huge layer of anxiety has been removed from daily life by being in the wrong body and being perceived as the wrong gender, and not really fitting in as that gender.
Jay
I thank everyone for their input and comments. Since coming out and accepting my trans identity, my mind has been trying to process through so many things. It really gives me peace of mind to hear everyone's input, whether I agree with it or not. I realize this is a tormenting issue for everyone, and it pains me to hear about everyone's day to day struggle with the outside acceptance of their identity.
That being said, my mind is searching for a way to circumvent this human rat wheel that is so deeply imbedded in all of our brains. I want to question myself, as well as all of you, to think about WHY we strive so ardently to pass. Do we really want to embody what it is to be male? Is it so crazy to want to be a third sect? I'll never be a female, yet I'll never be a male. Nor do I want to be either. I am trans, and don't fit perfectly into either box.
I understand many trans guys wholly identify as male, and I pass no judgement, only curiosity as to where that stems. Is it all the years of torment and pain that causes the brain to search for peace of mind? Is it easier to claim one particular gender than create a new one altogether?
When I think of this from a psychological perspective I think about all humans who feel "less than" compared to societal norms. Whether it be the small framed woman with small breasts who can't identify with her womanhood, or the interracial male who struggles to identify as being white or mexican, or the black female who identifies as white and goes to great lengths to straighten and bleach her hair to be seen as such. Many of these struggles are similar to us trans guys. I think in all cases we seek to please our oppressors: the white straight norm.
I too have been victimized and labeled. Not quite white, not quite mexican, not quite male, not quite female. I think in order to make sense of all of this, I have to go within myself and have the strength to tell the world what I am. Not let randoms define who I am. I think the trans community should put there energy where they can really help themselves and benefit their mind body and soul as well as those of their peers. Not spend days, months and years agonizing over passing for the clerk at the liquor store, or the hundreds of passers by.
When I bind I depress the body parts that don't belong. Not for anyone else to see, but for me to feel. When I leave the house feeling more like me, it brings me a sense of peace, regardless of who misidentifies me. More importantly, I EXPECT to be misidentified to those who don't understand, and when given the opportunity, I will clarify exactly who and what I am. I don't want approval from those I don't know... my partner knows who I am, my family knows who I am, my community knows who I am, and that is the community I will answer to, NOT the unknown billions of others in the world.
My true struggle is to be happy with who and what I am, not to be constricted by gender norms. I completely understand that we all struggle to be accepted, it's human nature. But just because it's human nature doesn't mean it's healthy, or feels good. And I personally strive to not be a part of that. I guess what I'm really trying to say, is that I challenge us trans-people to come together as a separate community, where we're ALL accepted. Where we can say f@#$ the man, and his two gender boxes. I want us to come to a place where our voices are strong enough to speak up on the behalf ourselves, and our peers-- "Actually, I'm trans." or "I prefer the 'he' pronoun."
I truly feel as a community we can find peace, but not by appeasing the masses. Rather, it starts by finding peace within ourselves.
Well I don't know about you but I see myself as a male already. Not trying to please "the man" as far as I know. I just want a male body, and the fact that I don't have one is a blow to my pride. A constant blow. Passing makes me feel a bit better about my female body, that perhaps it's a little masculine and maybe I have a chance of being (almost) wholly male someday.
It's freeing to be taken as a male and treated as such. I feel like I can just be myself without being so self-conscious all the time. There's no more of that deceptive "mask" I feel like I'm putting on when I relate to others as a female.
Andiafuera I think that was a really inspiring speech. In some respects I agree with you, certainly on a personal level. As much as I want the general public to see me as male, it hasn't been that way for me since birth. As a kind of "late trans developer" I have spent my child and teen years being moderately comfortable in a female body. Some of the habits, mannerisms and thought processes I have come to see as very female are also things that I don't want to give up. I think that every transperson is different. Many straight transmen on here want to be seen as men, very male, 'one of the lads.' I am on the other end of the scale, I'm happy to be extra-binary. I don't care if something I do or say isn't the 'epitome of masculinity' because...well I'm gay anyway so who cares ;D I'll never be wholly one of the lads! The main thing is that I don't want to be female and subject to 'woman' socialisaton. People seeing me as female all the time quickly becomes very tiring and that is a feeling most of us on here share.
I agree though that nobody should be bullied into fitting the binary and anything we do, we should just do for ourselves. Sadly though, the doctors still want to sort us into male and female, man and woman.
Good post andiafuera and I agree with some of what you said, particularly the part about binding and doing other things to look more male to make yourself happy, not for others. I also agree that the ultimate goal of transition is being happy with yourself, regardless of how other people see you.
I do identify as male though, not as in between or another gender. Everyone identifies differently and I think that's important to keep in mind. So for someone identifying as male, yeah they want to be taken as male and being seen as anything else is upsetting. Earlier in transition, I felt differently. I liked looking more androgynous and confusing people, and for a while was happy with that. But getting deeper into transition, I find myself even happier now that I look totally male. Isn't that the point of transition, happiness?
I think it's unfortunate that society at large looks at things so black and white. You're either male or female to the vast majority of people. I wish I could be out as trans and have people still see me as male, but usually that's not how it is. While I do feel completely male, I know that my experience makes me different from other guys, and wish that I could hold onto that without being reprimanded. I guess I kinda had to choose which one I wanted more - being accepted as male, or being able to hold onto my unique experience being born female. I chose the former, because that is what I wanted more overall. I do wish we could have it both ways though, and maybe when other people are more accepting something like that would be possible.
Quote from: Chamillion on January 09, 2010, 05:38:11 PM
Good post andiafuera and I agree with some of what you said, particularly the part about binding and doing other things to look more male to make yourself happy, not for others. I also agree that the ultimate goal of transition is being happy with yourself, regardless of how other people see you.
I do identify as male though, not as in between or another gender. Everyone identifies differently and I think that's important to keep in mind. So for someone identifying as male, yeah they want to be taken as male and being seen as anything else is upsetting. Earlier in transition, I felt differently. I liked looking more androgynous and confusing people, and for a while was happy with that. But getting deeper into transition, I find myself even happier now that I look totally male. Isn't that the point of transition, happiness?
I think it's unfortunate that society at large looks at things so black and white. You're either male or female to the vast majority of people. I wish I could be out as trans and have people still see me as male, but usually that's not how it is. While I do feel completely male, I know that my experience makes me different from other guys, and wish that I could hold onto that without being reprimanded. I guess I kinda had to choose which one I wanted more - being accepted as male, or being able to hold onto my unique experience being born female. I chose the former, because that is what I wanted more overall. I do wish we could have it both ways though, and maybe when other people are more accepting something like that would be possible.
What he said.
I don't reject my female history or unique body formation at all (mostly male with female genitals now). I'm cool with that. I've accepted that. But I don't want to be seen as a woman or an 'honorary male'. And that's what happens when I don't pass.
Thanks guys, for the kind words and input. Still.. so many questions for you. Like whether or not trans-dudes come to identify as wholly male because it's easier. It's easier to fit nicely into an understandable package. It's easier for our identity and gender to be more recognizable and accepted.
After so many years of occupying the wrong body, getting sh** on by the world for being "different" isn't it plausible that our brain just seeks acceptance from the normative whole? Whether we accept it or not, our experience will always be different.
After reading through the "Do you embrace your trans identity..." thread, I feel that so many of us are still hiding. Still lying. Lying to OURSELVES because of our pain. We are so consumed with passing, being "manly" enough... some of us even question and shed our core values in order to adhere to the male norm...
Is it just me, or is that wrong? Why do WE have to sacrifice ourselves, our fibers of being, just to simply get in with the crowd??
Quote from: andiafuera on January 10, 2010, 02:47:56 AM
Thanks guys, for the kind words and input. Still.. so many questions for you. Like whether or not trans-dudes come to identify as wholly male because it's easier. It's easier to fit nicely into an understandable package. It's easier for our identity and gender to be more recognizable and accepted.
After so many years of occupying the wrong body, getting sh** on by the world for being "different" isn't it plausible that our brain just seeks acceptance from the normative whole? Whether we accept it or not, our experience will always be different.
After reading through the "Do you embrace your trans identity..." thread, I feel that so many of us are still hiding. Still lying. Lying to OURSELVES because of our pain. We are so consumed with passing, being "manly" enough... some of us even question and shed our core values in order to adhere to the male norm...
Is it just me, or is that wrong? Why do WE have to sacrifice ourselves, our fibers of being, just to simply get in with the crowd??
Why? If what you say is the case, it's because the human mind likes easy things. It likes patterns and repetition and thinking about a new challenge to your identity everyday is so much harder than just being "male" and being done with it all. Just human nature. Nature of other animals too, but it's not about identity for them since as far as we know, they're mostly not sentient.
It's really too bad but people like to group others. And others seem perfectly happy to organize into little groups to let others think about it less.
Quote from: andiafuera on January 10, 2010, 02:47:56 AM
Thanks guys, for the kind words and input. Still.. so many questions for you. Like whether or not trans-dudes come to identify as wholly male because it's easier. It's easier to fit nicely into an understandable package. It's easier for our identity and gender to be more recognizable and accepted.
After so many years of occupying the wrong body, getting sh** on by the world for being "different" isn't it plausible that our brain just seeks acceptance from the normative whole? Whether we accept it or not, our experience will always be different.
After reading through the "Do you embrace your trans identity..." thread, I feel that so many of us are still hiding. Still lying. Lying to OURSELVES because of our pain. We are so consumed with passing, being "manly" enough... some of us even question and shed our core values in order to adhere to the male norm...
Is it just me, or is that wrong? Why do WE have to sacrifice ourselves, our fibers of being, just to simply get in with the crowd??
I don't really get where you're going with this. The alternative to passing is being seen as female or something less than male. I respect that some guys id as genderqueer or androgyne, but some of us don't. And that doesn't mean we are identifying as wholly male because of convenience either. I'm certainly not the manliest guy, and have some feminine qualities but that doesn't make my identity any less male. It doesn't mean I'm denying any part of myself. My body may be ambiguous, but my identity is not.
I don't see how wanting to pass is sacrificing ourselves. The point of transition for me was that no matter how I dressed or what I did, I looked like a female and people thought I was someone I am not.
Where does the idea come from that we are 'shedding core values'? The point of transition is to be ourselves.
I identify as completely male, and I'm a little taken aback at the insinuation that I am somehow submitting to The Man, not being truly honest with myself, being male on purpose because it's easier, hiding, lying or shedding my core values.
It's great to question, and I support those who don't fit the binary and all, but to assume that those of us that identify as male are lying to ourselves just because you don't identify the same way is being a little arrogent.
It'd be like a cisgendered person saying that gender variance doesn't exist, and that any deviation means you are lying to yourself and repressing your "true biological nature" (or some such crap).
Where did my sense of gender come from? Well - I've always had the internal identity of one who plays for "Team Testosterone". I always thought I'd grow up to be a man since I was a small child, just so happens that it's got to be by my own hand.
I'm just being myself. I just happen to like "typical guy stuff". I want facial hair, body hair and erections. I'm not making an effort to be one way over another - I'm just doing my thing. If my thing happens to be what a crapload of other men are doing, and suddenly I'm in a majority, then so be it. I'm not a cardboard cutout of manhood, but I'm not a unique snowflake either.
Look, you honestly sound like (not saying you are) an androgyne / genderqueer / bi-gender / transgender person (not strictly transsexual is what I'm getting at) who's proud to be out and non-binary conforming. That's great, you have every right to be proud of who you are - but don't let your self-pride get in the way of understanding that it's ok for people to be different to you, while still being true to themselves.
Being a militant non-conformist is still being a conformist - you're just asking people to conform to a minority viewpoint. Don't fall into that trap, it's all to easy and pervasive in areas such as this.
Ask all the questions you want by all means, but you might get better answers if you ratchet down the 'you binary sheeple!' factor down a poofteenth, yeah? ;)
Quote from: Teknoir on January 10, 2010, 07:36:28 AM
Look, you honestly sound like (not saying you are) an androgyne / genderqueer / bi-gender / transgender person (not strictly transsexual is what I'm getting at) who's proud to be out and non-binary conforming. That's great, you have every right to be proud of who you are - but don't let your self-pride get in the way of understanding that it's ok for people to be different to you, while still being true to themselves.
Surely anyone who wants to go so far as to medically transition is transsexual. I thought that the definition of transsexual is someone who wants the body of the "opposite" sex not "someone who conforms to every ideal of the opposite sex". I'm not saying that anybody is
bad for wanting to be as man as man can be or that is 'wrong' and I rather hope that isn't what the original poster is trying to say either. However on a personal level, I want to be male, so I am transsexual. But I also want to be a rather "flavoured" male on many accounts. I don't think that necessarily makes me genderqueer but I do identify as "queer" above transsexual because its a better desciption.
For the original poster - Teknoir has a very good point here. To be critical of a transman who wants to be seen as 100% male is just as bad as them being critical of you for 'being your own flavour of transman'. Even in a minority group like us, there is massive diversity. That's the human race for you. There may be men amongst us that are identifying 'as male as possible' because its easier. That's the same in the gay community too. But that's not everybody.
Above all, being ourselves is what counts right!? :angel:
Quote from: Alessandro on January 10, 2010, 08:16:41 AM
Surely anyone who wants to go so far as to medically transition is transsexual. I thought that the definition of transsexual is someone who wants the body of the "opposite" sex not "someone who conforms to every ideal of the opposite sex". I'm not saying that anybody is bad for wanting to be as man as man can be or that is 'wrong' and I rather hope that isn't what the original poster is trying to say either. However on a personal level, I want to be male, so I am transsexual. But I also want to be a rather "flavoured" male on many accounts. I don't think that necessarily makes me genderqueer but I do identify as "queer" above transsexual because its a better desciption.
Errr... that wasn't aimed at you, that was in reference to :
Quote from: andiafuera on January 09, 2010, 04:02:02 PM
I'll never be a female, yet I'll never be a male. Nor do I want to be either. I am trans, and don't fit perfectly into either box.
I was getting too lazy to quote :).
It was more my way of saying to the OP "well, there are plenty of groups that identify as extra binary - you aren't alone if you're looking for people that feel they belong in a bit more of a grey area. The binary conforming 1-to-1 direct swapski transsexuals may be a different group than what you're looking to identify with (yet still your supporters, of course :)). Here are some other terms to explore....".
I certainly don't think one being a particular type of man (especially if said "type" is sexual orientation related) would exclude one from being classed as transsexual! (that would be... err... pretty hypocritical to say the least). I personally think the descriptor is along the lines of "identifies as only male or female" (as opposed to both or something else).
Groups aren't at all important when it comes to being yourself, anyway - but they can assist in finding people with similar experiances and outlooks. That's pretty darn helpful when you're still sorting yourself out.
Right now, passing isn't as important to me because i KNOW it isn't likely to happen. It's great to get that "stop and think about it" reactions but i don't look for it at this point. What other people see me as (or what they expect me to be as EITHER gender for that matter) isn't important because i know what i am.
That, to me, is all that matters. I can't help it if other people look for gender identifiers or through blinders. I'll worry more about passing when i start T (hopefully soon.) Right now i'm content to bind, pack (on occasion), and wear my "guy clothes" (my parents words BTW - that's what they refer to my everyday wear now lmao) without worrying if i look "masculine enough."
Teknoir - Oh OK I get it. I didn't see that the OP had said that they didn't want to be male. Oops :-X
The way people see you effects the way people treat you...
It's simple as that.
Ah! So much good input. I'm sorry if my shameless curiosity and role of devil's advocate has taken anyone aback... please know I DO respect everyone's unique experience and appreciate everyone's input.
As far as my place on the gender spectrum, I am a male, but I don't want society, or other trans -dudes for that matter, to tell me WHAT male is. And as far as me be quoted as saying I'm male nor female nor do I want to be either, I'm speaking in terms of my bodily form.
Also, I think my posts have deviated from the original topic and I must get back to the original reason why I started this thread... Simply in reaction to reading so many accounts of "Didn't pass today. FAILED. ahh! my life!" as well as "Am I manly enough, even though..."
I don't understand why we need the validation of others to make us feel like we're getting the job done. and when we allow outside criticisms to affect us, I truly believe we are prone to hiding and shedding parts of ourselves in fear of not 'looking the part'...
Quote from: andiafuera on January 10, 2010, 02:47:56 AMLike whether or not trans-dudes come to identify as wholly male because it's easier. It's easier to fit nicely into an understandable package. It's easier for our identity and gender to be more recognizable and accepted.
For me I've always identified as male. Not female, not in-between, but male. I sometimes wonder if it's easier for people who identify as in-between or gender neutral because they don't care if they're seen as one or the other. Maybe they have less dysphoria too? I don't know. I do know one thing- there's nothing easy about transition.