Given that not all of us here are necessarily seeking SRS, but all of us deal with issues of gender, I was wondering for those that ever wear clothes opposite of their birth-sex, how important passing as the sex you are presenting as matters to you.
I understand that for most of the pre-op transexuals this is probably a moote point. But considering the wide array of people here, ongoing discussions of the meaning and implications of gender, issues of living stealth or in the closet, and so on, I thought it would be interesting to hear from the community at large about their personal thoughts on passing. It might be helpful for all of us if you could also indicate your transgendered status.
For me, identifying as an androgyne, I am never trying to hide my birth-sex. Instead, I am attempting to build a personal wardrobe and presentation that reflects my gender-shifted existence and worldview. Personally, and I know I am not alone, think men can easily appear sexy and even masculine in feminine style clothing. One Rolling Stone issue with Brad Pitt modeling some pretty amazing dresses comes to mind. And even when pushing the envelope of cross dressing, much prefer to find some male version of my feminine self, instead of trying to become aesthetically a woman.
Thus, passing is a non-issue, and if anything, the assumption by people that I should be trying to can be very troubling for me.
I would love to hear your personal thoughts.
Passing is probably more important to me than it should be. However, I am very unique looking, so if people knew I was TS, then they probably wouldn't forget. I had 1 day where I went into 3 separate stores and had 3 clerks remember me. I don't know if they remembered because they read me or just because I am unique looking, but it was eerie.
Melissa
There was a time in which being able to pass was important to me, but I ceased to care about it. I'm going to live where I am comfortable on the gender continuum, people generally see what it is that they want (or are able and ready) to see.
zythyra
Passing to me has had its ups and downs. I know when I first came out I had to pass no matter what. It was first on my list of things to do. Now, that time has passed and I have been post op for over two years, I have really not taken that much time to think about passing. I feel that I do pass. I put make up on in the morning then its jeans and a nice top. I really don't have a glamorous job, driving a bus. I really can't wear skirts that much, I do every once in a while, but they are a hindrance. When I go out in my jeans, I get respect from everyone I come in contact with. So, trying to pass is not really on top of my priority list. I'm a woman and I live my life as a woman and not a TS. I'm not stealth or anything like that, I'm just a woman and I'm in love with this concept of mine.
Sheila
At the moment, the ability to pass in the future feels like a matter of life or death to me. Understand though, I'm not there yet. I'm still a work in progress, in the earliest stages, still living as a male, so it's not an issue yet for me.
But the *fear* grows every day as I walk into that future, not knowing how to survive it, painting it with my insecurities rather than my hopes.
I AM aware though that the person who arrives there will be different, changed. I'm so insanely unstable and emotional these days, I just have no clue who that woman will be in the end, and what context she'll bring to that new life.
I have hope. Well, my friends will tell you I have hope, then I'm dispairing and darn near suicidal, then laughing, then crying, then BOTH (really, really messy), then optimistic how great things will be, then crying my eyes out, then...
And that's just during a commercial break of Battlestar Galactica.
So for now, in my unstable, fearful state, passing is absolutely critical to my survival. But I'm gambling that the journey will change the traveller by the time she arrives.
Quote from: Sheila on November 06, 2006, 10:49:37 PM
Passing to me has had its ups and downs. I know when I first came out I had to pass no matter what. It was first on my list of things to do. Now, that time has passed and I have been post op for over two years, I have really not taken that much time to think about passing. I feel that I do pass. I put make up on in the morning then its jeans and a nice top. I really don't have a glamorous job, driving a bus. I really can't wear skirts that much, I do every once in a while, but they are a hindrance. When I go out in my jeans, I get respect from everyone I come in contact with. So, I'm a woman and I live my life as a woman and not a TS I'm a woman and I live my life as a woman and not a TS. I'm not stealth or anything like that, I'm just a woman and I'm in love with this concept of mine.
Sheila
Hi Sheila;
QuoteI feel that I do pass.
Yes you do. But honestly, do you think that people will treat you the same if you didn't pass? In my situation, I really don't think people would respect me or take me seriously as a woman if I did not pass. Just my thoughts.
QuoteI'm a woman and I live my life as a woman and not a TS
Most of us try to live life as women and not as TS. If we lived our lives as a TS, then it really wouldn't matter whether or not we pass.
Quotetrying to pass is not really on top of my priority list.
Right! ...and this is because you said:
QuoteI feel that I do pass.
and you also said:
QuoteI know when I first came out I had to pass no matter what. It was first on my list of things to do
...so all of us go through this "want to pass no matter what" mood...the difference is that some of us worry about it for a bit longer than the rest. Eventhough we feel we pass, we want to make sure that we pass 100% of the time (although realistically this is impossible but we try nonetheless ;D), especially if we live in a very conservative area and work for a conservative employer.
QuoteI'm not stealth or anything like that, I'm just a woman and I'm in love with this concept of mine.
I am a stealth woman (...and plan to be forever), and I am also in love with this concept of mine, for I don't think that trying to live your life in stealth makes anyone less of a woman, it only makes you a cautious woman. (...of course some will say that we are paranoid, oh well, we can't make everyone happy as you well know.;))
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Everyone who has posted so far, thank you. I know this area of discussion has probably been gone over so many times, and for once I'm not even really looking for a discussion. We learn so much by knowing and understanding other peoples lives. And I thought it might be informative for myself, and especially new people as they discover the site to hear some candid thoughts on some of the common issues we all deal with in one way or another.
In fact, reading the responses so far, I've learned a little more about myself, since starting the thread. I previously stated that passing was a non-issue for me, and I realize now in the mirror of some of the statements made here, that is not actually true.
It is true, I don't care about passing as a real woman. And personally, I don't care that I am a man who likes to present in various levels of femme, EXCEPT when I am judged for it. Like Tinkerbell's wonderful statements on how much time, money, and trouble TS's go through to complete the transformation and the reason's why, I too feel a pressure to meet a standard, even if it is an undefined standard based on my own vagaries, and the dictums of the fashion police.
The following examples are all referring to something I would wear out and about town and irrespective of what I am comfortably wearing around the house alone or among close friends. If I I want to wear a pair of capri style jeans (female) with a dress shirt, dress tennis shoes, etc.. (male), I do so without hesitation and without real regard for if it presents masculine or feminine, as long as I feel as though it is a worthy outfit. If I am going to wear a skirt in the same genderbent manner, I take a bit more concern to make sure that the outfit is stylish and really works. And when I begin to cross the line, still genderbending, but in nearly all female attire, the farther towards total cross dressing I get, the more concerned I become with whether the ensemble, the presentation, actually complements me, my figure, enhances my appearance in some way, is extremely fashionable. The more I cross the line of gender appropriate presenation the more I concern myself with every little detail to ensure that, despite being surely misunderstood by the public at large, at least they won't be able to critique the presentation itself (only the act of doing it if they have a problem).
Generally if something I'm wearing is women's clothing, but something a man would wear in a different style or cut, I am completely unphased by presenting as man, stubble, less concerned about my gestures and movements (which are already somewhat effeminate and dare I say refined :) ). However, moving into women's only clothing like skirts and dresses, and more so as the "femininity" level rises, I find it necessary to start adding more feminine accessories, adding some makeup, smoother skin, no stubble, rounding out the entire ensemble. I'm still a guy in a dress, but I still need to somehow live up to the expectations of what it means to utilize the symbols of the feminine gender.
Thus, I am concerned about passing, just not passing like I thought when I started the thread.
Thank you all so much for sharing (some of you for the umpteenth time). But surely we continue to grow and new people come on board and the dialog can evolve as does our lives.
For two years, it was the thing that consumed me before I started my RLT. I had to pass before I continued down the path. I could think of nothing else. I fussed with my hair, makeup, clothing, and all the mannerisms. I know that I became very good at it.
For years after my change, I continued working on my appearance. I would have custom business suits made. I had a pair of shoes for every outfit and at least 10 handbags. I would only wash a pair of hose a couple of times before I'd wear a new pair. My hair was perfect when I went to work and when I came home, my makeup was still flawless. My nails were impeccable and real.
Now, I live in the country. I only see people once a week. Things are a lot more laid back here so I've become less stringent in what I wear. It only takes a handful of ham to impress the dog after all. ;)
Must I pass now? I could care less. However... if I started getting a lot of negative feedback, I'd soon get paranoid. I really don't even think of it until I take a step into the forum here. Yes, the topic has probably been discussed ad naseum. But here's the thing..... there is a great turnover here. Once people get on with their lives, they move on. New people take their place.
It is alway appropriate to ask any question that is on your mind. ALWAYS!
Thanks Cindi. You are the strong sassy woman I would want to grow up and be! Good night.
I know that most of you have never met me and don't know what I look like only in the picture. I have done a lot to make myself passable. It has only been time that has made me feel passable. I have seen pictures of a lot of you on here and you all look very good. I know that it takes time for you to figure it all out and it takes practice and just going out. You get use to it and when some one looks at you and you think they have read you or maybe they have you get use to it and don't pay any attention. I know it is still in the back of you heads, but you let it go. There are days that I just can't get my hair to do what its suppose to do or that I feel fatter than usual. Maybe I see something in the mirror that I didn't notice before and the passing is questionable. I go out and the people look at you the same way then alls better with the world. During your transitioning period you really go through phases and even after surgery, you are not 100% there. It just takes time.
Sheila
I am an androgynous CD. Passing can be important to me, but it is not the most important thing. A lot depends on the situation. When I dress en femme at home and only my wife sees me, passing is not at all important. I do care how I look and it always makes me feel good when my wife complements me on how I look, but I know that I do not pass and it doesn't matter. When I go to a TG support group and am seen only by other members (both TS and CD), then passing is still not very important, but it is more important to make a more feminine appearance. The only time passing is important is when I go out in public en femme. Since those occasions are relatively rare, I do not really worry about passing. Even when I go out in public wearing a skirt, passing is not the most important thing. The most important thing for me when I present as a woman in public is my personal safety. Avoiding public ridicule is important, but not as important as my safety. As long as I can pass well enough not to draw so much attention to myself that it either treatens my safety or makes me open to ridicule that is good enough for me.
I find that it depends on the situation.
Day to day, as long as I do not look like a train wreck I am fine.
Meeting new people, it matters to me and I try to go all out in looks and limit speaking because I am conscious of my voice. that is in spite of the fact that even on the phone I am called Ma'am or Miss. Even when calling on accounts that still have the old name on them.
So most of the time I do not stress over it but there are times where it is important to me and I am okay with that.
This is something I have debated with myself over and over. On one hand I know if I passed easily I'd love it. No hassles, no funny looks, no fear of being ridiculed or worse, being beaten or killed. I'd just be accepted as a woman. It's a nice neat package. But on the other hand I know the realities and know I will get clocked. So I find myself taking the attitude "It's their problem, not mine."
My family will never let go of Jim. I will always be a he to them. But after all the hormones, voice lessons, electrolysis and surgeries, if I looked like a natal female they just might come around and accept I was born with a birth defect, not a mental disorder. "Passing" with them would be wonderful but not all important.
The importance of passing isn't as simple as saying "Yes it is" or "No it isn't". I have to take into consideration my physical attributes and work with that. From there I have to decide what the odds are of getting clocked. If they are high then I can't place a lot of importance on passing. If they are low then I can focus more on trying to pass. I just don't want to get so wrapped up in it I forget to live life.
All that considered what I'm finding is I'm not a girly girl. While it's great to get all dolled up once in a while, I have no interest in spending all my time worrying about my looks, which can affect one's ability to pass. I'd rather be shooshing down a mountain, playing 18 holes or feeling my sailboat cut silently through the water. That to me is what enjoying life as a woman should be.
I'm already prepared to live a life as a transsexual woman if necessary. That means passing or not won't break me or even cause me much concern. Only when my physical well being is threatened will it be a problem to me. And, I feel as time goes on, I will get comfortable in my new life and passing will just come naturally.
Julie
Passing is essential to me. That is why I am (well actually we because my bf is helping me) spending another 14k to have Dr. Ousterhout do my jaw and chin even though I already pass 99%. Of course, being in sales, my appearance is essential too and since FFS my sales have increased about 25%. With that kind of return, I will get back my investment in a couple years. Besides monetary rewards though, the self-esteem that comes from constantly hearing "miss, maam, and she" several times a day is indescribable. Even better is when GGs are jealous of you.
Quote from: Melissa90299Passing is essential to me. Besides monetary rewards though, the self-esteem that comes from constantly hearing "miss, maam, and she" several times a day is indescribable.
I concur with you, Melissa.
Quotebetter is when GGs are jealous of you.
sooooo true! They always are......*giggles* :icon_evil_laugh:
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Passing is of little importance to me. Mostly because I am not that passable and don't see a time when I will be. But more importantly, if I care about passing, that means I have to care what others think and if I care what others think, I am giving them control over me. I would have to care about negative critisism also. This whole transsexual thing has never been about anyone but me. About how I feel about my body and my gender. I present myself as a woman, not for others, but for myself. It allows me to feel normal and happy. If it bothers other people, it's really just too bad.
I have been dressing full time for 2 years and 3 months now. I have never taken hormones, nor even officially been diagnosed as being transsexual. I just know that being able to live my life how I see fit, in womens clothes, makes me happy. This is not a real life test, this is real life. I just can't wait until I can afford therapy, hormones, and SRS to begin my life. If passing were to be important, it would require me to put my life on hold again. I am just unwilling to do that.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Elizabeth,
I think you said what I have just said but better. I don't know you and I have never seen you in real life, only the picture that you have, but I believe that people see you as female and most don't even give you a second look and if they did you probably didn't even notice. Hormones and surgery is not a prerequisite to live your life the way you want. That is all up to you and your choices. For me and from what you say, hormones and surgery to correct my deformity was what I needed. I didn't want any other corrective surgery like facial or breast implants. I'm happy for you.
Sheila
Hiee,
I find that I am no longer really concerned with passing. I have been living full time 24/7 now for a bit over a year and a half and before that full time except for work for another 2 1/2 years or so. At first passing was important due to fear of what might happen if I did not pass. Now I simply live as my true gender and am accepted as being female for the most part. I get 'Read' on occassion but it is no longer a big issue as I expect that will be the way that it will always be. Transitioning was and is always about being who I have to be and not what someone else thinks I should be. I find even at work that the 'Boys' are coming around to accepting me as a 'She' which is really something as I work in construction as a tradeswoman and it tends to be somewhat of a macho environment. I will say though that I can't wait to have my Final SRS which will allow me to be able to use womans change rooms etc and partake of those activities requiring the same :).
Byee,
Brina
how important is passing to me?
[very important]
if i weren't able to pass, my life would be a total pandemonium because people would see me as an [imitation] of a woman, and thus i wouldn't be taken seriously.
Passing is vital for me, and i know i have issues to work out regarding it, but i wont be happy till i do. because only when i do, can i live MY life. im a girl not a label ;)
It's very important to me. Much as Tinkerbell said, I don't think I'd get taken seriously as a man if I didn't pass. I also don't need the extra level of stress involved in worrying about it. I live in a small town, so people know about me, but it still irritates me when someone makes a pronoun error (although I try not to show my irritation and be reasonably gracious about it).
If I didn't pass, though, I'm sure I'd find a way to cope.
Dennis
I can't think of much that's more important. Only one poster here has ever seen me in person (in a rather noisy pub so my voice was atrocious while trying to speak loud enough) so other than myself only she could provide insight into it.
I find it hard to judge my own self, no one gives me funny looks anymore so from my perspective I pass. I've got my voice to a point where people no longer give me a funny look when I talk and I've come out to one person after being around them for a fair while and they had absolutely no clue. In that respect I pass, I suppose what I'm thinking about is stealth....
Though there's two sides to passing, changing yourself to fit in as best you can as female and being entirely yourself which is what in my opinion transition is about, certain things you have to change yourself like voice work but I've more or less just sunk into this new life like the warm blanket I never had, I'm not going to turn into someone I'm not just to appear to be a more "genuine" woman, I'll certainly pick things up like mannerisms but i'll not force anything on myself.
Quote from: Mawd on January 17, 2007, 03:52:27 PM
Only one poster here has ever seen me in person (in a rather noisy pub so my voice was atrocious while trying to speak loud enough) so other than myself only she could provide insight into it.
And I'm not going to do that here... ;)
Thinking about it now I'm quite glad of it.
Quote from: Mawd on January 17, 2007, 05:56:49 PM
Thinking about it now I'm quite glad of it.
I have no intention of betraying anyone's trust, here or elsewhere. You should know that. :)
I suppose passing comes with confidence in yourself.
If you happen to be less convincing on first sight, once people get to know you for 'you', then your true gender will prevail.
But if you don't have confidence in yourself, then you're much more likely to stay hidden away.
Difficult one, but very important.
Try living with a man who considers arguing about psychology and quantum physics to be an apropriate basis for conversation on a daily basis for three years just you and him and see if you can come out of it without being a little odd personality wise.
it's not so much visual passing I worry about, more the way I move (I tend to lumber about the place and I have a very poor sense of balance) and allot of personality traits that come from playing on the defencive of unwinnable arguements for years and years.
Passing for me right now is taking a back seat to losing weight & to begin voice therapy, however.com; here of late as long as I keep my mouth closed and don't speak when I walk up to someone's desk that doesn't know me I am getting Ma'am'd instead of Sir'd (by both military & civilians). I haven't cut my hair in over 5 months & I wear earrings but my baritone voice is a dead give away. But passing is very important for me I'm hoping to have the voice & weight under control in a 1.5 to 2 years.
It wasn't until recently that I realized how important passing is to me. I am not a very strong person and I really have a lot of difficulty being seen as anything other than female. Since going fulltime, there have been a few people who refuse to use my legal name and insist on calling me by my old name (which I hate) and it has reduced me to tears every time. I think it takes a VERY strong person to be "out and proud" and that is just not me. I tried it for a little bit and realizing how easy it made me crumble tells me that passing is route for me.
Melissa
Quote from: Melissa on January 18, 2007, 12:32:02 PM
I am not a very strong person and I really have a lot of difficulty being seen as anything other than female. Since going fulltime, there have been a few people who refuse to use my legal name and insist on calling me by my old name (which I hate)
People who insist on calling you by your old name are either cruel, afraid or suffer from a very strange sense of humour. There are many people out there who don't really understand what you've gone through and feel very shy and embarrassed because of this. Subsequently, as a coping mechanism they can resort to denying or trivialising the situation and may develop a strange sense of humour. Then there are some people who are afraid, because they feel the pain that you've been through and don't really know how to respond. Deep down, they're probably feeling pretty awful and want to be there for you. Then, of course you get the people who are just plain cruel and ignorant, who wish to cause you suffering because, we in their eyes (not true of course) are easy targets and they thrive on our vulnerability. I suppose you have to use your instincts and common sense when judging the motives of people. I'd say there are three ways you can respond to this sort of thing, stop seeing them if they mean genuine harm, have sympathy for their terrible sense of humour if that's the problem or just smile at them and let them see that you're happy to be you. That will soon stop it. :)
Passing is understandably very important, and I must clarify that when I said have confidence in yourself that doesn't mean being 'out and proud' if you like, or VERY strong but at peace with yourself and allowing yourself the respect which you deserve. You don't have to be this ultra sociable confident person, but somebody who is comfortable and looking forward to enjoying life. Also, don't hold it against yourself for not being different, we are all individuals and life has to fit around us and not the other way round. :)
Judging by your avatar you don't look as if you'd have trouble passing. :)
Thanks Elizabeth. In all cases, the reason was the third one you mentioned--that they were cruel/ignorant. I have dealt with it by not seeing them. Perhaps not the best way of changing things, but at least I can cope that way.
As for the confidence, I understand and I do exude plenty of confidence. The fact is that I do feel very, very comfortable living this way. Thank you for the comment on my avy. I think I do pass fairly well and my voice is fairly good too, whereas I don't even have trouble on the phone. :)
Melissa
I had a strange experience yesterday:
I had my first speach therapy session, it wasn't so much speach therapy more just passing class. The first session was just her chating with me while she made notes on what to work on, overall she was very complimentary and said she thought four sessions would probably be of benefit for me but as far as she was concerned I'm her regular finished product, things like body language and eye contact while talking, the voice work I've already done, in her own words she said "it's already really rather good " and asked what training materials I'd used and it was mostly just done by me recording my own voice and working on it, I need to improve pitch varation and I need to be able to get more volume with the right resonance but that's all.
She said I was also far too tense and nervous, but i think that's more to do with sitting with someone that reads me so well and having the fact that I'm trans in the limelight, day to day I don't tend to think about it so I'm far more relaxed.
She also gave my face a once over, asked me how much it had changed with HRT and seemed pretty awestruck at my lack of facial hair, seeing as I'm 18 and the referral wait time is usually two years I think she's only really worked with 20+ year olds so she seemed amazed that I had long hair already little male pattern baldness to speak of and that my voice had never properly broken, and suggested I get tested for IS conditions which I already am in about a months time.
We also talked allot about my past how and if i tried to fit in as male which I did and just completely failed at, I went through a year trying to fit in with guys my age trying to get into sports and it just did not work at all and how I dealt with being treated as different at school.
At first I thought this was just to try and get me to talk but later on I realised this was more so that she could get a feel for me as a person so she could help fix the male bits I've picked up over the years which is fairly little other than my general pretentious manner though that could just be because I grew up in london and now I live in scotland it shows up all the more :'(.
At the end she said she'd like to do a little voice work and also some posture work by filming me and playing back the footage which will likely be scary to say the least, I suspect in the next session she's really going to lay into me for all the things wrong with me, but for now i'm happy.
That and while on the bus home I spotted someone i knew and hadn't seen since early on in transition so went to have a chat, he was with a friend I didn't know, he made a couple of pronoun slips which caused his friend to give me a good stare and a funny look for a second or two before he told him "dude, that's a girl" with complete certainty and I'd been talking with them for a while so he'd had a good feel for my voice :D.
While I try to look my best, passing isn't that important to me. Being out in public as Gennee is most important. If I get read, I get read. It won't keep from being who I am.
Gennee
:)
"Passing" is a much overused and abused word/term. It covers a broad spectrum depending on who is using it. I have seen many CDs that consider themselves passable that aren't quite there, in my opinion. Conversely, I have seen some beautiful girls that have never described themselves with that term. Passing in terms of "fooling" anyone is of no importance to me. I'm very happy to simply be able to present a very femme image that is quite the opposite of my male image. It is of importance to me to feel that others in this lifestyle feel that I have accomplished this goal however. It is also extremely important to me that my image reach a level that satisfies my very critical eye. I am not the least judgemental of others but have little flexibility when it comes to self apprasial.
I can understand why some do not feel passing is important. I make no judgment about that, and frankly it's a great attitude to have. But if I were to be very honest, it is extremely important to me. All I have ever wanted from this is to be a woman in the presence of other women. Without passing, that could never happen. And maybe it's my own insecurity.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on March 15, 2007, 07:24:05 PM
I can understand why some do not feel passing is important. I make no judgment about that, and franly it's a great attitude to have. But if I were to be very honest, it is extremely important to me. All I have ever wanted from this is to be a woman in the presence of other women. Without passing, that could never happen. And maybe it's my own insecurity.
Exactly my feelings too.
Expressing femininity just doesn't get me where I need to be. Like Jenny Boylan once said, for me it's about being *female*, and not necessarily being feminine (though that HELPS, and is nice).
It's a fact that's being emphasized more and more every day now as I transition and come out to people. They've all been GREAT so far, showing me incredible kindness, compassion and acceptance - but as a transsexual, not a woman. For all the struggles, changes and risks I've taken these last few months, I'm realizing that nothing really has changed whatsoever.
That may change in time, as I'm still fairly early on in the process (7 months HRT), but I'm really starting to get scared that this is as good as it's gonna get :(
Kate
Quote from: madison on November 06, 2006, 06:32:33 PM
For me, identifying as an androgyne, I am never trying to hide my birth-sex. Instead, I am attempting to build a personal wardrobe and presentation that reflects my gender-shifted existence and worldview. Personally, and I know I am not alone, think men can easily appear sexy and even masculine in feminine style clothing. One Rolling Stone issue with Brad Pitt modeling some pretty amazing dresses comes to mind. And even when pushing the envelope of cross dressing, much prefer to find some male version of my feminine self, instead of trying to become aesthetically a woman.
Thus, passing is a non-issue, and if anything, the assumption by people that I should be trying to can be very troubling for me.
I would love to hear your personal thoughts.
I try to present as a woman. I get read sometimes, some people that know me (or know "of" me more often) know thats its a male in a dress. but generally I pass and that makes me happy.
If I don't pass ~shrug~ I didn't pass and I go on my way.
Passing is very important to me. It's one of the main reasons I'm taking hormones. Not passing can get you assaulted or worse so that's something I consider too.
If I get clocked, though I haven't yet, not really, I hope I'll be able to take it in stride. I think I will because I really don't have any worries over what most people think of me. The opinions of the kind of person that would stare, point and laugh or even say something nasty are very much below my level of concern.
hugs & smiles
helen
Quote from: HelenW on March 15, 2007, 09:00:24 PM
If I get clocked, though I haven't yet, not really, I hope I'll be able to take it in stride. I think I will because I really don't have any worries over what most people think of me. The opinions of the kind of person that would stare, point and laugh or even say something nasty are very much below my level of concern.
Did you always have this security and strength?
Or is it something you developed along the way?
Intellectually, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, my emotions don't seem to take into account the character of the person hurting me :(
Kate
Sometimes I wonder about passing. I had one time when (en femme) a jogger stopped and stared at a friend and I. He was definitely staring at me as my friend passed very well. And yet another time, in boy mode and attending Atlanta Pride, someone stepped out from one of the booths handed my wife and I some material of whatever they were promoting and said "Here you go ladies." So I got clocked "en femme" and passed with a group of lesbians in boy mode? And I was confused before? :laugh:
Bev
As I have mentioned before (and I have thought a lot about this issue), passing is EXTREMELY important to me. I NEED others to see me as a woman and not a transsexual. At this point in my transition I do pass very well and have actually had to convince people I used to be male when dealing with old business. I have gotten into some pretty comical situation such as when me and my ex went in earlier this week to file a joint return (I'm slightly smaller than her in pretty much any measurement including hands and feet ;D...and breasts. :P). The woman just saw 2 women coming in and it took a little convincing. Usually I have to show legal proof.
Melissa
Hello Mawd. Just kind of got into the passing feelings going on here. Of course it depends on your psych and all, but it really does not matter, though there are a few people you don't want to talk to about it.
My own views, after living the last 10 years as Female is that someone is always gonna know. I started out in work and life right at the beginning. Some were shocked, but nobody has ever jumped into me about it other then my sister in law and my wife, I was pretty lucky, they are all for me now.
It was rough at first as I made the change and continued to work the same job. I got looked at a lot, but nobody made any deal to me personally, who knows what they said to each other? I felt awkward for the first year because of my extordinary bad manners and habits, but in time I cleaned most of that up and felt much better as I did.
These days nobody questions me about my gender out in public and I'm not a fashion queen or any kind of dress monkey. I can still look a little rough at times as I will still do some hands on work, but at my worst nobody gets upset about it.
I think most of the concern is seeing how some will just get cocky when out and blow it out all over the place, but those that feel and act like the people they want to be get treated pretty much as they would like.
I was an extreamly rough type in my younger years and have had my share of all the bad things that can happen to a person, and I still stand on two cement planted feet in any occassion when I know its what I want, and I know a lot of others the same way. Passing would be great, but it's something that happens or it don't, you just live your life and let others live thiers and see how it goes. It's just who you are I guess and thats all there is to it. If your a woman, others will see you as a woman and thats all I can say about it.
Terri
Hi every one, I thorght I would put me peice in here now. As most of you know Im a pre op, pre HRT, pre theropy, pre dinosis transexual. LOL ;D. When I came here it was to find awnsers about me and who I am but all I found was questions. So here is my attempt at this one. Passing would be vital because I just want to lead a normal hetrosexual life, if thats going to be possible. If this is going to hurt the transgender movment sorry but I only want to disapeer to only resurface when absolut nesersery.
I will still and allways will come to SP for a chat.
Love it here. :-*
Passing is very important to me. I'm a woman and I want others to see me as what I am and not as what I used to be (man, transsexual).
Lucy:
Just saw your thoughts and figured I'd toss in a crecent wrench or two:
If what you want to be is a woman then you have to put a few things in perspective. You can listen to all the information you wish to about how women look, act, walk, talk and so forth, even get aquianted with the various issues which are top priorities in womens concerns ... All that and so on. It gets you used to what to expect and thats not a bad idea at all, but its short of actually feeling like a woman.
Pass well enough or not, you have to be engaged in what women actually experience in full life to really understand who they really are and what they really want. You can't do that just by study. It can only really be done by being there and experiencing it.
It is only be living the life, for real, day in and day out, that you can gain this type of experience in who and what you are. I live in an area where there are countless numbers of Transsexual,Transgender peoples and see and experience the real life of it all, aside from my own experience.
In my own view, one must simply dive in and learn to swim, from the bottom up to really grasp it and truly learn from it and know exactly who and what you are. It is hard at first. I started as a construction worker without any consultation or advice from anybody, and the crap and ????? that occured in the beginning took a year or two to even out, and there were a lot of male emotions going on in me up until a couple of years ago, but I wouldn't trade my life with anyone over it. Things are fine these days and getting only better as time goes on.
The thing that bothers most males is they will be seen as "soft" and "weak" because of a transition, but in time you learn to handle that and work with it, or just beat the crap out of the offender if it pleases you ....... but as you insides grow, you grow and despite your appearance, it is WHO you are that really counts in this world.
Terri
Quote from: Terri Gene on March 16, 2007, 04:14:54 PM
you have to be engaged in what women actually experience in full life to really understand who they really are and what they really want. You can't do that just by study. It can only really be done by being there and experiencing it.
Which is precisely why men are always saying they never can understand women.
Melissa
Quote from: Melissa on March 16, 2007, 04:26:58 PM
Quote from: Terri Gene on March 16, 2007, 04:14:54 PM
you have to be engaged in what women actually experience in full life to really understand who they really are and what they really want. You can't do that just by study. It can only really be done by being there and experiencing it.
Which is precisely why men are always saying they never can understand women.
Melissa
Then why is it that women ALWAYS seem to understand men? Usually better than the man does himself.
....Laurie
Precisely simple laurieO:
To most women, men are simply all to consistant in thier behavior and mannerisms. Little if any controvesy etc. .........
Terri
Quote from: Terri Gene on March 16, 2007, 05:32:09 PM
To most women, men are simply all to consistant in thier behavior and mannerisms. Little if any controvesy etc. .........
Right. You could probably right some mathematical formula to predict what a man would do next or how he would react.
Melissa
Quote from: Kate on March 15, 2007, 09:03:24 PM
Quote from: HelenW on March 15, 2007, 09:00:24 PM
If I get clocked, though I haven't yet, not really, I hope I'll be able to take it in stride. I think I will because I really don't have any worries over what most people think of me. The opinions of the kind of person that would stare, point and laugh or even say something nasty are very much below my level of concern.
Did you always have this security and strength?
Or is it something you developed along the way?
Intellectually, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, my emotions don't seem to take into account the character of the person hurting me :(
Kate
No, I never had this attitude before I realized I was trans and had to do something about it. I was timid, even fearful, of others and their opinions and actions towards me. I tried to hide myself as much as possible because I knew the trouble I could get into by being found out.
Of course, as I said, I haven't had much opportunity to be in "harm's way" so to speak so I might be full of beeswax but I have realized that I'm the only arbiter of what is right for me. Others may have their opinions but they are just that, words and ideas that exist in another person's mind. As long as someone remains nonagressive I'd probably ignore them or just smile at them and move on (
quickly!). They can only hurt me two ways: physically or if I place value in their words.
YMMV. of course (and so may mine) as times and environment changes.
hugs & smiles
helen
Quote from: Yvonne on March 17, 2007, 07:02:55 AM
Passing is important for every transsexual. How successful you are in transition is directly proportional to how well you pass, regardless of what other 'trans activists' may tell you. This may seem harsh, but it also very true. I don't see how you could succeed as a woman if you are impassable.
Suggesting that anyone who feels differently than you is either lying or deluded hardly seems fair.
Kate
Quote from: Yvonne on March 17, 2007, 07:02:55 AM
Passing is important for every transsexual. How successful you are in transition is directly proportional to how well you pass, regardless of what other 'trans activists' may tell you. This may seem harsh, but it also very true. I don't see how you could succeed as a woman if you are impassable.
Pass as What !!!!!
"Passing" is important, but is not proportional to "success" in transition. I know "successful" post op TSs who look like the back end of bus ( if that is your definition of passing), but their behaviour and strength of character earn the respect of all around them.
Ruth
If someone wants to pass as a particular gender, great. It's their choice, and I support that. What I want to see though is a world that is truly safe for people to express any gender, already existing, in between or any other combination of their choice. This is beyond activism, I simply want to be myself and be able to live openly as such.
zythyra
Quote from: Kate on March 17, 2007, 02:03:31 PM
Quote from: Yvonne on March 17, 2007, 07:02:55 AM
Passing is important for every transsexual. How successful you are in transition is directly proportional to how well you pass, regardless of what other 'trans activists' may tell you. This may seem harsh, but it also very true. I don't see how you could succeed as a woman if you are impassable.
Suggesting that anyone who feels differently than you is either lying or deluded hardly seems fair.
Kate
I haven't suggested anything like what you're referring to. I have only given my opinion and I stand by it.Quote from: RuthChambersPass as What !!!!!
"Passing" is important, but is not proportional to "success" in transition. I know "successful" post op TSs who look like the back end of bus ( if that is your definition of passing), but their behaviour and strength of character earn the respect of all around them.
Passing as in dying ::), obviously I'm talking about passing as a woman or what else are we talking about here? I disagree with your views because strength of character doesn't get you anywhere, not in the society we live now.
i'd have loved to make a [little] experiment. too late now! I'd have [wanted] to dress in my mother's clothes, have a square face, a five o'clock shadow, talk like a truck driver and tell the world [im a woman]. how do you think people would've reacted? maybe my [strength of character] would've overcome societal norms! ::)
Quote from: Katia on March 18, 2007, 12:57:51 AM
maybe my [strength of character] would've overcome societal norms! ::)
I think the point was that some people are content being unpassable (or somewhat so), being secure enough in their identity to not be bothered by people's reactions to them.
I can't handle ridicule though, at least not yet. I freak out NOW going out, wondering what the heck people think of me. And yet, I look around sometimes and wonder how some people can leave their door, lol. I was standing in the checkout line with my wife the other night, and a younger guy (cute! and taller than me!) got behind us. I let him go ahead of us, and couldn't help but stare and try to figure him out... he was tall, thin, with a cutoff mesh T-shirt, weird pants, long coloured hair cut short in places, odd makeup... like a TS, gay man, goth and punker all rolled into one. The funny thing was, for as bizarre as he looked, he kept looking at ME too, lol.. a weirdly-feminine looking "guy" looking and sounding probably rather gay, yet standing there with a wife, with longish coloured hair, woman's jeans and sweater, lol... both of us looking at one another and thinking, "What the...?"
Kate
It's often the impassable transsexuals who think that passing is not important. If passing wasn't an issue for them, they'd think otherwise.
Quote from: YvonneIt's often the impassable transsexuals who think that passing is not important. If passing wasn't an issue for them, they'd think otherwise.
This may be true enough in some cases, but those who pass well enough and are not bothered by the issue fit in Where?
Terri
Edit: fixed quote ~ Kate
Quote from: Terri Gene on March 19, 2007, 12:16:46 PM
Quote from: YvonneIt's often the impassable transsexuals who think that passing is not important. If passing wasn't an issue for them, they'd think otherwise.
This may be true enough in some cases, but those who pass well enough and are not bothered by the issue fit in Where?
Terri
Edit: fixed quote ~ Kate
If you pass well and are not bothered by the issue, you are a passable transsexual. If you don't pass, and you are not bothered by the issue, you are still an impassable transsexual. If you don't pass and are bothered by the issue, you are an impassable transsexual. What makes you passable? the act of passing, not the act of feeling "comfortable".
passing to me is vital, i just want to be me, a normal girl, not seen as a transexual, even if i am treated as female, i was to be just a girl, and i will be when i go ft, passing is part comfort, and part confidence, but 80% looks, and behaviour. if you have the looks, there is a bigger variance in voice, and manerisms, because you still look female, some peps require more of the manerisms, and a more fem voice,
im lucky that hrt has just allowed me to naturally pick up natal female behaviour, and speach patterns, and ive got quite good at passing in boy mode :) well i say boy mode, but anyone whos seen how i look as a 'boy' will know i look more like a bad f2m and just female, or tomboyish. when i go ft, that will be it. and to me, passing will be an issue, untill it just happens, which to be honest, some people just can...
I wish to pass well, mainly because i dont want to be thought of as TS to the people around me, because that leads to bad thoughts on their part. I would rather be seen as human, and female at that, so that the majority of society will just leave me alone. I think my biggest obstacle is my adams apple.......
I've had a few perspectives on passing as my gender identity has evolved. To be fair, passing, though not quite in the sense you mean, started at 5 or 6 years old when I, due to childhood stresses, was forced to conform my behaviors to what my family expected (a boy) and subvert many of my natural feelings. Playing that part as well as I could kept me alive, I do believe, and I can't help but be grateful that I found a part of me that could get through that part of my life. Pushing the rest of me deeper into to the subconcious, however, meant that some internal fracturing had occured, and that the part of me who was present for my childhood grew largely independent of much of the rest of my self.
When I initially began accepting my female self around 19 (after years of severe depression) passing was important to me partly because I wasn't emotionally strong enough to withstand critisism. I needed external validation to help support my internal sense of self, which isn't to say that anyone else could know who I am, but simply that knowing people did percieve me as female helped me ground my identity in the reality of existance as a woman.
As I grew more comfortable with myself as a whole, and got past inital anxieties about my being (as I percieved at the time) a transsexual, I found that in my case absolutely no one had any question about my gender, which I primarily attribute to some particularly fortunate genetics, as well as begining estrogen around 20. By this point, passing became something I put a little effort into. My attention in the realm of appearance shifted to notcing the imperfections in myself and trying to bring my appearance into line with my internal vision fully, much as any person does, trans-* or not.
Along that transition path, I seriously considered SRS most of the time, but I always found some reason not to, usually financial, though I could have managed it if I'd really applied myself to the task. But as I started to finally accept after years of living as my female self, there was simply more to my gender than I was wanting to accept. For years, I had been working on the premise that the female self was the "real me" and the male self was a hollow construct - not "real". About a year ago, I started accepting that my male self might not have been, had my life gone differently, but it had become a very real part of me that I couldn't just discard when I stopped needing it. Following that path for a while has led me to my present sense of being bi-gendered, which is still under very active evolution.
And for Chris, my male self, passing is not easy at all. Those same femine features plus years of hormones have softened my face and given me rather large breasts, which has made it pretty much impossible for him to be seen as male. It's kind of funny, were it not uncomfortable (perhaps annoying is a better word) for him. But along the way, we as a whole have grown stronger, and neither of us feel as sensitive to what others think. Today, we seriously look at finding ways of expression that are comfortable for both of us, which I felt like an awfully uncomfortable idea when transistioning started 6 years ago. Still, I know he needs to find a way of being that people can identify as male, that he be seen for who he is.
As I look at things now, it'll probably be a few more years yet before I find the ways to "pass" as who I am as a whole. Part of that is wanting people to percieve me in a way that's congruent with my internal sense of self, part of it is finding comprimises that satisify my internal sense of self, and part of it is learing to let myselves express themselves fully too, to not feel contrained to one unified way of presenting. It's all another facet of that life long journey of discovering one's self, I suppose. :-)
-Amy (with a few words from Chris)
if I couldn't pass as a woman, I'd just stay a man (or whatever) in a dress. I wouldn't like people to ridicule me or make fun of me. we live in a society that doesn't accept men "who try to pretend to be women."
I tend not to pass, but I feel comfortable about it anyways. I think for me, it's just a fact of life, but I would prefer to pass for just safety reasons. I've learned most people are cowards in public and often don't dare to insult or assault me, but if they can get me into a corner as it were, then they'll try. Often I bite back and they look shocked as if they are owed the right to act vile toward my person. Go figure. :-/
-- Bridget
This issue of "passing" is a double edged sword. What we want is to be comfortable around strangers and acquaintances in public. Being comfortable for us means A. Feeling as our desired gender and B. Having others be comfortable with us as such. In a real way, I believe striving to pass is not only for us, but for the comfort of others. Most people become uncomfortable around persons who look too out of the ordinary.
On the other hand, people feel insulted if they decide you're "not what you seem" and feel they were fooled.
My approach is to always make every effort to look completely one gender, but be as sincere and real about it as possible. Know from within who you are and that you are in charge of who you are. People tend to respond positively to confidence.
The problem I see with passing, even if successful, is the person who is trying to pass's responses. Lets take a typical scenerio of an MtF. Most MtFs are originally socialized to handle certain kinds of behavior, in particular looking. Males tend not to look at everyone else unless its a "good looking" female and especially not look at other males unless they are friends. So, if an MtF at anytime succeeds at passing, many will get the shock of looks from males, and the more friendly looks [as opposed to the generally 'submissive' or neutral looks that I've noticed females have toward males] from females. That can be a bit bewildering to be sure. It's like you sent a String object to another program, expecting a String object back, but get a long variable instead. :3
In my experience, if the passing doesn't work, it's not really that you get the same responses [oh it's a guy so continue guy responses...], rather I find a whole new set of behaviors emerge. Sometimes hostile, sometimes leary[sp?]. And that's the other side of that coin that can be iffier than just being bewildered by the social response/cue change, because non-passing is really something else entirely in that it opens a whole new set of social responses/cues. That's at least from my observations in my attempts to pass and from what I've read from many other TSes online [blogs, articles, and etc].
I've been tempted to go and do an experiment with some friends on campus to see if we can catalog all the responses for study. :3
-- Bridget
Hmmmmm...well, it's been months since I posted a response to this thread, and needless to say, my views on passing haven't changed at all. I feel that in order to be accepted as women (from a MTF perspective), we need to pass as females first. My opinion is that being comfortable with ourselves is an important factor; however, realistically (yes, I am very realistic) this does not do much in the kind of society we live today. To put it bluntly and without offending anyone, if you look like a man in a dress, no one is going to take you seriously regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable you feel about it.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on March 29, 2007, 11:28:39 AM
To put it bluntly and without offending anyone, if you look like a man in a dress, no one is going to take you seriously regardless of how comfortable or uncomfortable you feel about it.
True, but not all unpassable TSs look like "men in dresses."
Sure, if someone is sitting there guy-style, out in a miniskirt and tube top with a week of beard growth, people are going to point and laugh.
But I've seen and read of many unpassing, yet female-seeming TSs who seem to be taken quite seriously. I'm guessing because they make it apparent through appearance and presentation that they take *themselves* seriously. They may not look like natal females, but they're far from being "men in dresses."
Obvously, not passing makes things more difficult. Some people will still poke fun, regardless of your confidence. And whether you're being accepted as a woman - or a TS - is going to vary per individual. But I don't think it's a hopeless situation where no one will take you seriously.
Kate
That's what I think is interesting. It's not that the social cues go back to default when you're read [mtf/ftm], but that the cues get turned on their head for whatever reason. Like I get stares from guys, but I get greeted more friendly by girls 99% of the time that I am out as me [androgynous and etc]. And that makes me wonder if it's that people don't have a mental template to go back on when they notice either a non-passing TS/TG or an androgynous TS [I know a few, it's sorta strange, but what the hell]/TG [me, lol]. So I think it forces people to move out from their mental templates which allowed to autopilot their behavior [Boy, go to boy template. Girl, go to girl template. Boy/Girl?!?, send interrupt to console!!!]. And that can be dangerous in some instances. Now I haven't experienced any geers or threats of violence, but some of the stares of some men in the restroom have come close to, "Lets Rumble."
-- Bridget
Do you know what goes through the minds of people when a TS is read or clocked? "she is a man" in other words "she is a man pretending to be a woman" or "she's a man dressed as a woman"...that is what I meant by my comment "man in a dress" ;)
tink :icon_chick:
That doesn't explain the variation in the responses itself. Geers and jokes I can figure out, but the violence part is what puzzles me. All I can figure out is that people respond negatively as such as a means to 'normalize' the situation or whatever. Or possibly this could be version of the Scientology 'Fair Game' principle at work in random social situations.
-- Bridget
Yeah, I think it shows on the moral fiber of such folks. I've seen this even with non-TG people. Whites staring at blacks and vice versa. I'm beginning to think that all too often people are told "society is the standard." Then again I've been digging through Atlas Shrugged, so I am getting rather 'Randish' about many issues. ;)
-- Bridget
Quote from: Attis on March 29, 2007, 12:35:46 PM
That doesn't explain the variation in the responses itself. Geers and jokes I can figure out, but the violence part is what puzzles me.
The violence seems to come mostly from men, and I think THAT is generally:
"You look like a woman almost, but you're really a man? Oh god, what if I find you attractive now? That means I found a MAN attractive! Now people will think I'm gay! How DARE you put me in this position by pretending to be a woman! Now I have to do something really nasty to you so everyone will think you disgust me!"Kate
Yeah, basically, some men believe they are owed something. Just because I look androgynous or if an MtF/FtM is a little off in performance or look [e.g. the newbie TSes] does not seem to be a valid reason to hurt me or people in a similar situation like me. Like I got a friend who's TS, she looks 95% like a girl, but she does have one thing running against her: big hands. I still wonder how many times she's come close to getting into a scuffle over that, but I doubt she has since she tends to hang with a better circle of people [She owns her own hosting company so she doesn't need to work in the general public.]. Still, I get worried sometimes about her and others like her. :( Me, I just give the idiot a big thump on the head. :3
-- Bridget
Yeah...I would say I don't pass very well...although I'm getting madamed more and more these days by store clerks and the such...but I just thought I'd throw in my $0.02 about the reaction to me by guys that I know and girls that I know! Okay...so I'm a pretty dykey MTF...in other words I am a MTF with a strong attraction to gals! Here's what went down at work last week that epitomized, in my mind, the reactions that guys have to me in comparison to the gals:
I showed up to work all dolled up because it was the first day that we had experienced spring-type weather in like 2 and half months...so I had a flowing kneelength skirt with hot pink leggings and a nice corset-style shirt on...despite this presentation I kept getting "Hey Man" or "Whats up dude" or "insert other guy-guy speech" from the guy coworkers...and at the same time this was happening one of my girlfriends invited me to an all-dyke house party and another coworker invited me to go to an event as part of a group called Womyn with a y!
So, all in all, I feel that even though I do not pass greatly the women in my life are more accepting of me as one of them rather than the guys who do not want to let me let go of the male privilege in my life! They have to continue calling me dude because, as Kate said, they want to make it clear to EVERYONE that they are not attracted to someone like myself!
YEah just some thoughts
Cheers: Patty
i remember two beautiful days where my my soul shone out of my body like the sun. i was relaxed when out and about i realised that no one was looking at me. as time went on on i was opeing up more and more and more. i must have got read because it all came collapsing down. for me passing i important
Quote from: Kate on March 29, 2007, 12:58:57 PM
"You look like a woman almost, but you're really a man? Oh god, what if I find you attractive now? That means I found a MAN attractive! Now people will think I'm gay! How DARE you put me in this position by pretending to be a woman! Now I have to do something really nasty to you so everyone will think you disgust me!"
Kate, I think you really got the right idea here. I think most guys are so afraid that they will have to admit that they actually have a feminine side. And so they put on the tough act, when in truth, they might love to trade places with you.
If I am to be honest, I also know that I do my best to pass because of my own fears. I was recently in a store, and for some reason I felt the look didn't quite work right. Know what I mean? I'm not saying I was Max Klinger or anything, but what was usually a joyful freeing time turned into a miserable experience. Perhaps I will one day get to the point where I don't care what anyone else thinks. Some here seem to have that attitude and my hat is off to them. I'm just not there yet.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Passing means alot to me. I guess once I'm post-op it won't matter as much to me, cos I won't have anything to hide then. But for now, I'm hiding the parts I don't want to be seen until they can be changed. I know who I am but it matters alot that I'm not perceived as something I'm not, a woman >.<. I don't leave the house without binding, which makes sense to me. I'm not a girl so why would I let those parts show? It bothers me more than it should I guess, but I've come so far I don't want to be mistaken for a female again.
Quote from: Kristi on March 29, 2007, 10:18:45 PM
Quote from: Kate on March 29, 2007, 12:58:57 PM
"You look like a woman almost, but you're really a man? Oh god, what if I find you attractive now? That means I found a MAN attractive! Now people will think I'm gay! How DARE you put me in this position by pretending to be a woman! Now I have to do something really nasty to you so everyone will think you disgust me!"
Kate, I think you really got the right idea here. I think most guys are so afraid that they will have to admit that they actually have a feminine side. And so they put on the tough act, when in truth, they might love to trade places with you.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
I dont think thats neceserily the case... they most likely wont want to swap, most guys are very happy as they are. and its only insecure people who will care. the educated happy in thier self guy wont care, because they will realise your not pretending, or cheating, plus this view is quite outdated now, most people are more than ok with this thesedays... so far 99% of all people ive come out to have been totally fine... the other 1% didnt understand...
Passing has been my focal point for so many years. I mean no offence to anyone, but passing is a must. If you are going to join society as a different sex you better be prepared. If not you will be a lonesome person. Get with the program of what you want to become, and stick to it.
Deb
EXACTLY...
passing isnt a choice, its necessery....
I happen to pass easily, and im thankful, body, voice, and behaviour/manerisms.... you dont get things for free in this world... if you cant do a part of passing, work at it, it wont just happen one day...
(i use ... too much ><)
OK. I feel the need to comment here again. You folks are probably quite right about the absolute necessity of passing-- for the transsexual. I'm not so sure that is the case for everyone. I personally know from hard experience that it is much easier to get along in public when you're appearance doesn't cross any gender barriers. As an androgynous-dressing male with near waist length swingy hair in the '80s, I had my first gender prejudice/acceptance experiences. Many people will not socialize at all with persons who seem to cross gender barriers. But I found that if you look good-- that is well groomed/good for you-- and carry yourself with confidence most people treat you with respect and even admiration. Now, I wear long skirts, makeup, heels, and dangly earrings, albeit only when and where I choose. I'm sure I don't always "pass" to everyone, but so far, I've gotten respect.
To many trangendered/bigendered/crossdressing persons, the whole idea is not so much acceptance by society as a different gender, but acceptance by oneself of the experience of being that gender. Passing is great, but self-acceptance is essential.
Lyric, "Passing is great but self-acceptance is essential". That statement is so true for everyone and not enough people realize it. To expand on my take on self-acceptance/passing is, with self-acceptance comes self confidence, with self confidence comes "passing". Rashelle
i remember two beautiful days i had mid transition. as i was walking i began to relax more. as i passed people on the street i would turn round to see if they had "read" me. the more i passed, the more i relaxed. by the time i got to the park, i felt like the sun was shining through my every pore. i was glowing. i was alive. i stopped at the bridge and watched the sun dance on the water. two absolutely beautiful days. then i must've gotten read because it all collapsed in on me. for me, passing is important. almost vital.
Quote from: Lyric on April 03, 2007, 02:51:12 PM
...
To many trangendered/bigendered/crossdressing persons, the whole idea is not so much acceptance by society as a different gender, but acceptance by oneself of the experience of being that gender. Passing is great, but self-acceptance is essential.
For me, this hit the nail on the head. I don't dress to pass. I dress to ease my GD and for the most part it works. Right now that is the only action I can take to acknowledge I am a girl and no longer in denial. This acknowledgement is the most important thing I have ever done. No more illusion that I can live my life as a man. No more wasted effort.
Let's be real here, it takes a lot of money to go from overweight, balding, middle aged man, to passable woman. There is no point in replacing old delusions with new ones. For the time being, I am not passable. This does not mean there is nothing I can about my GD. I can live my life in the role of a woman, but to do this, I have to do something to tell society I beleive I am a woman. Dressing, breastforms, and a wig seem to accomplish this.
And surprisingly, by watching women my age and body type, I get by just fine. But I do this for me. If I don't pass it's not the end of the world and it's certainly better than the alternative.
My wife has encouraged me lately to try to move my transition along. She has agreed to tighten our belts so I can go back to therapy and get my facial hair removed. She beleives we can afford for me to start HRT, which combined with facial hair removal should make me more passable. I have to crunch the numbers, I not sure that there is enough belt to tighten. So, hopefully I will be paying the Gender Center of LA a visit real soon.
I have been full time for almost three years now. Passing or not passing is not really going to change my life that much. Those who know me probably won't notice that much and those who don't know me, I don't notice them too much. For me it's more a matter of feeling like a whole real person and it's unlikely that will happen without SRS.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Elizabeth, I admire your courage and conviction. I know EXACTLY where you are coming from. This is something that you have to do and you're not going to let a little thing like money be your determining factor.
Cindi
Quote from: Lyric on April 03, 2007, 02:51:12 PM
OK. I feel the need to comment here again. You folks are probably quite right about the absolute necessity of passing-- for the transsexual. I'm not so sure that is the case for everyone. I personally know from hard experience that it is much easier to get along in public when you're appearance doesn't cross any gender barriers. As an androgynous-dressing male with near waist length swingy hair in the '80s, I had my first gender prejudice/acceptance experiences. Many people will not socialize at all with persons who seem to cross gender barriers. But I found that if you look good-- that is well groomed/good for you-- and carry yourself with confidence most people treat you with respect and even admiration. Now, I wear long skirts, makeup, heels, and dangly earrings, albeit only when and where I choose. I'm sure I don't always "pass" to everyone, but so far, I've gotten respect.
To many trangendered/bigendered/crossdressing persons, the whole idea is not so much acceptance by society as a different gender, but acceptance by oneself of the experience of being that gender. Passing is great, but self-acceptance is essential.
Actually this really needs to be stressed more. Self acceptance is more important than passing.
Is passing important to me. Yes. Of course. But there are certain degrees of passing. There is walking down the street passing and passing in every aspect of life. The later is not always wanted. I have no desire for deep stealth or starting a new life. Some of us do not need nor desire the deep stealth that some feel is necessary.
I say that there is a degree of passing that all trans people want and desire. But there is a degree of passing that some of us do not want. Some want to reach a point of passing that allows for deep stealth. I want the degree of passing to lesser degree. But I am a professional activist in DC, and I am transitioning as such. This means I neither want nor desire a deep degree of stealth, and to some extent I will never pass, because I do not want that. I will be identified as transsexual no matter what, but that is my choice and I believe my responsibility. Some of us are in positions that allow us to be advocates. I am not only trans, but I am also a highly educated professional activist. Being open about who I am, and not passing to a degree sometimes, will be just as important as passing, because it will allow me to change peoples perceptions and speak to issues that effect transgender people. This may be a concept that may be hard to grasp to some, but for me it is part of my identity, and it goes beyond my gender identity. Part of my identity is being an idealist, thinking that one person if motivated can help change peoples perceptions and the system itself.
Remember there are several women and men out there who do help express the ideas of our community in a very public fashion. They are changing peoples perceptions of trans people and pushing for our civil rights. Passing fully is not something they want or desire, even when they can achieve it. I am in the position and I feel that I have the responsibility to be one of these people. Its not for everybody, but being an activist is part of who I am along with my gender identity.
QuoteRemember there are several women and men out there who do help express the ideas of our community in a very public fashion. They are changing peoples perceptions of trans people and pushing for our civil rights. Passing fully is not something they want or desire, even when they can achieve it. I am in the position and I feel that I have the responsibility to be one of these people. Its not for everybody, but being an activist is part of who I am along with my gender identity.
Amy, Thanks for doing this activism work and for being who you are!
zythyra
I am not doing it yet that much, though I am to some degree. I can't go into all the details just yet taking I am just begining the process.
passing can be part of the activism...
at my university, i am the transgender wellfare officer for the students union... and i suprise people.... they expect some rugby player in a dress when they hear transexual... with a broad yorkshire accent... i prove that wrong... im a normal female, and ill tell you now, most think the only things that can be done are boob job, cut the penis off and grow your hair... im changing perspectives by being normal, and makeing people see that we can completely integrate into society. i have actually had 'i cant belive you were born a boy' many times, and when people see old photos, that changes minds... we need to show we can be just men and women to become accepted as men or women...
passing is very important to me, but.... i have no intention of being "stealth." i am always called ma'am, and have men open doors for me, and all of the usual stuff. and it makes me feel wonderful that i am accepted how i perceive myself, and it always hurt me to be perceived as a man. i think of myself as a woman before i think of my status as a transsexual woman. still, i make no secret to those whom i get to know that i am a transsexual woman. i have always considered myself a girl or a woman, but i also knew my body wasn't right. i lived a lie pretending i was a man, and i am not going to substitute it with others lying about my past. the important issue is, for me at least, to be comfortable with myself. that allows me to be honest and comfortable with others. i don't know if it is right for everyone, but i am just trying to be the best person i can be, and i don't see how that is possible if you aren't open and honest about your past.
i am post-op since you asked...
Quote from: debisl on April 03, 2007, 01:05:09 PM
Passing has been my focal point for so many years. I mean no offence to anyone, but passing is a must. If you are going to join society as a different sex you better be prepared. If not you will be a lonesome person. Get with the program of what you want to become, and stick to it.
Deb
I see no issue here in that conclusion only because when you consider the alternative of being ostracized or possibly abused, it doesn't make sense to endure such evils. But it should be noted for androgynes like me, whether we are read as males or females, passing doesn't apply, but it does help to be read either or only to ensure our survival as well. It's sad to live in such a savage society where one has to prove one's self to others.
-- Brede
Passing is very important to me
i hope that one day i will look like a woman and that everybody will recognize me as that :) (hopes)
The ability to pass would be a dream come true. I think at least part of ones self-acceptance is wrapped up in societies acceptance of us, we are after all social creatures.
Interestingly enough being in the gothic scene has made me be mistaken for a woman many times, especially coming from the club or whatnot at night. For any real attempt though, especially during the day I cringe at the thought of the effort required to actually pass full time, even though at some point that is exactly what I would like to do.
It almost seems to me that age of starting transition has alot to do with the ability to pass or at least the effort required in doing so. I guess that means that it is good that I am realizing that I cannot continue my male facade forever at 24 but, even still if I were 16 it would be alot easier. I do have hair down to my waist and naturally have no visible addam's apple already so maybe I am worrying for nothing....
I really applaud the people who have the strength to not obsess about this. I for one certainly don't have that kind of unconditional self acceptance the world would be much, much better if more people did.
I'm a non-op trans girl who has been on HRT for two years now. For me, passing is secondary to me being myself. That's not to say that it's not important to me. But I'm not stealth and never truly will be. I don't announce my transsexuality to everyone I meet, but if they are good friends, I feel like I owe it to them to tell them. Especially if there is romance involved.
Post Merge: March 13, 2010, 09:16:32 PM
Quote from: Hikari on March 02, 2010, 04:44:42 PM
It almost seems to me that age of starting transition has alot to do with the ability to pass or at least the effort required in doing so. I guess that means that it is good that I am realizing that I cannot continue my male facade forever at 24 but, even still if I were 16 it would be alot easier. I do have hair down to my waist and naturally have no visible addam's apple already so maybe I am worrying for nothing....
Well, most changes don't take place between after puberty and before 30. I doubt it will be much harder to pass whether or not you started at 19 or 30 if you were through with puberty then. I started at 28 and find it hard to pass as a guy when I try due to the hormones and my natural body language. I always say that most people can pass. Body language, voice, the right clothes, and attitude matter more than looks. Though, there are lots of exceptions.
At this point in time I would have to say passing is extremely important to me. I would also have to admit that my self-esteem is directly related to passing. As a truck driver I meet and have to interact with new people on a daily basis, many of them for only that one brief instance ever. Also though, there are many places I have to interact with the same people on a continuing basis, either with regularity, or perhaps once every few months. (Truck Stops, regular shippers/recievers, etc...) Being percieved as a man dressed as a woman has been, and for now will continue to be something that I dread and fear. Being called "Sir" at a new shipper/reciever or truck stop can completely devistate me for the entire day. On the flip side, being called "ma'am" at the same places can give my self-esteem such a boost it is indescribable.
I personaly feel that this is not the best mental attitude to have, and it is something that I am working hard to overcome. I have long been an advocate of not letting others have any sort of control over me, but yet, as you can see, I have.
Now, all of that being said, I have also come to some eye-opening realizations. It seems that at the beginning of my transition when I was not very confident, even hesitant in many aspects of appearing as a woman in public I noticed every 'double-take', long stare, wierd look, etc... Recently I have become much more confident. I will wear my girly tank top without an overshirt or jacket. I don't hesitate when giving my name as 'Stephanie' at a shipper/reciever, etc... And what I have noticed is I do not get the 'double-takes', long stares, etc... as much, or even at all. It appears to me that just by being more confident internally has changed the way I am percieved externally. (I am not sure if any of this is based in reality, or if I am just not noticing the old reactions as much or what. But for now it is my reality, and I am enjoying it. Though a bit confused by it.)
Have a great day.
(On a side note: Is there some place I can go to find out what living in 'stealth' actually means?)
Passing will never be an issue for me. At my age and family situation this is something I will only be able to do with close friends and in private. It would be nice to move to a rural location with my 'significant other' where we both can be who we choose to be. Oh Well keep buying a few lottery tickets every week
I think that passing is important to us all but, I have noticed that women come in all sizes and shapes, so are we trying to be perfect, for some of us (including me)it is not going to be. I would like to be passable, walk like a model on a runway and have a sweeter voice instead of sounding like a fog horn. but i do my best. Passing is also important to me also.
Passing means everything to me.
I need to work on my voice more however. It's a difficult thing to do when you have to raise your voice loud enough for someone to hear you and maintain enough control so you still sound feminine. As far as physical looks go- I pass. It's the voice that needs the work these days. It is just grating and annoying when you speak and people look at your disapprovingly and change their smile to a frown- especially when you're in line in customer service.
Things like that just wreck my day.
i used to be at a stage, where passing meant everything to me. it made me feel good, when people would refer to me as "sir", etc. But until i tell close family and friends, im shying away from making people use correct pronouns and such.