What female privileges have you gained in transition?
Transitioning has given me so much more then I have lost but some of the most important to me are:
The attention/affection of men
The friendship of other women
Huge amounts of self confidence
I may have lost some respect of the guys I worked wit but I was accept by every woman that worked at my old employer. I also have attracted the attention of men, when I could not attract women in the other realm.
And like Cami, my confidence has risen tremendously.
I desire these things. Though I don't really wanna lose my appeal to women....
Attention from men.
Men holding the door open for you.
men letting you walk across the street on a busy street.
The most important thing being a 'Black Male' was hard having woman hold there purses so close thinkin your gonna snatch it. None of that anymore
I'm not sure there are any 'privilages' as one says... theres privilages to being attractive to the oposite sex, sure... but for just being female? Not really any at all...
perhaps people are easier to trust you, to let you help, or to confide in you, but a lot of things people have described above are simply the opposite of male privilage... not a female privilage. Unless you like being the little 50s housewife steriotype... *shrugs*
Sure, its nice to have a door held for you, but don't define your life by what guys think of you... be your own woman, and men will like you more...
Men are more courteous; a lot of them tease each other mercilessly, but they no longer include me in it thank goodness.
Other women are friendlier and accept me as an insider to the club. Very different from how it felt before to be left out.
I don't think those are dependent on being attractive, however I do notice other things where that surely does make a difference. People sometimes give attractive women a "free pass" on things. Can't think of specifics but they're little things like being allowed to do something out of turn or being given an inexpensive item free of charge. They also tend to be more forgiving of mistakes.
QuoteUnless you like being the little 50s housewife steriotype...
"Get out of your 1950s fantasy. Your face shines with misery transparently. Spew out that sobering, half-assed victim rhetoric. Make 'em all squirm while they chew on it." *Hums a few bars of Bad Religion.*
Quote from: Jester on February 25, 2010, 10:14:48 AM
*Hums a few bars of Bad Religion.*
No Bad Religion song can make your life complete. :P *puts on headphones and listens to No Direction*
I am now a member of the club I always yearned to join. ;D
Men are nice to me and don't expect me to be manly or one of them.
Women are nice to me and accept me as one of them and tell me secrets and we have fun together and sometimes can get silly and we touch each other gently in a warm and friendly and nonsexual way and there are few barriers between us and ...
- Kate
Bad Religion makes my life complete.
None that I can think of.
I don't consider men oggling me and wanting to get into my pants a "privilege". I consider it annoying.
Men more courteous and gentle towards me, my brothers tease each other endlessly but never towards me, they now have a ''girl respect'' towards me.
I get doors held open for me.
I always get offered a seat by a gentleman.
I don't have to wait long if Im in a bit of bother with my car, I never have to change a wheel (I can) but always a guy is willing to do it for me, so I don't get to break a nail lol
Having a nice girly bond and girly chat with other women.
Opposite sex attention from men who see me as a real woman.
Taking as long as a like to look attactive and pretty, my boyfriend takes about 10minutes to get ready, I take as long as I like, my hair, my makeup, my nails, my clothes etc etc etc and its excepted, boyfriend never questions or complains because its female privilege, because Im a WOMAN!
P
Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on February 26, 2010, 03:57:11 AM
None that I can think of.
I don't consider men oggling me and wanting to get into my pants a "privilege". I consider it annoying.
Word sister...
Was talking to a transwoman the other week, I'd mentioned guys grabbing my butt at work (I work in a nightclub) and how annoying and degrading it was... she said to me she enjoyed it and welcomed it
that it made her feel like a woman... and attractive...
allowing ones self to be groped and defining ones self by molestation? Jeez... have some self worth folks, its scary how many m2f women seem to define themselves by males.... and by male standards still. Claim you're female? so be a female, not a man's idea of one. Self respect is free... female privilage? sad point is there arent any.
- being paid less than men for the same work
- being ignored at meetings
- having ideas dismissed
- having a lower credit rating
- being whistled at
- being flirted with
- being smiled at
- being touched without invitation
- being able to make men do stupid things
- having men vie for my attention
- being able to be "silly" and having it snickered at
.... oops, out of time!
The other day, when my waiter brought my bill I thought he said "Thank you, sir." When he returned, I said (with a smile): "Please don't call me sir." He was shocked and said: "I would never call you that! I called you sweetheart." I was mollified.
When I told my therapist, she said she would have been insulted to be called sweetheart, especially by a waiter half her age. I told her it was still new to me, so I was still happy for it. :)
The only thing that doesn't change is Change.
- Kate
My male co worker opening doors for me.I love to shop and I do it with my sister and a couple of her friends.
Odd, most people I know open doors and hold them for anyone who is holding anything. It's the least polite people can do. Gender regardless.
Since we're talking about doors...One thing I've gotten alot lately is that men seem to want to hold doors open for the purpose of checking me out, it's fun when they're cute but that's about it.
The number one privilege gained is being able to be myself and not having to hold back anymore. I'm not that shy, morose person I used to be.
Quote from: mija on March 27, 2010, 03:10:21 AM
The number one privilege gained is being able to be myself and not having to hold back anymore.
Amen, sister.
- Kate
How can you tell if a man is checking you out?
I've noticed men holding doors open for me a lot more now too, not to mention the random free drink offers sometimes. :P Kind of sucks for me though since I'm still more interested in women.
yeah, it helps if you let the women know you are a guy, and the guys know you are a woman.
I am now a member of the female tribe, no longer an outsider. Even in women's bathrooms and locker rooms... showers... I am accepted as one of them (unless someone knows my past and then that knowing nullifies me and makes me an outsider to them (and I am distrusted) though women are usually subtle and tend to communicate very indirectly). Something "bio" males tend to generally be oblivious to, something "trans" women sometimes pick up on eventually, given the opportunity.
I now have a will to live which is a sort of privilege.
Women and children trust me (as long as they don't know my past), men are willing to do things for me including remodeling my home and things that require a lot of work, not just casual things like holding a door but those things also.
But I think some of this has to do with "attractiveness" or attractiveness privilege.
Bio Men have the run of the world and women must be careful. Bio Men will do anything to get in your pants including knowingly giving you a sexually transmitted disease or getting you fired just to have a one night stand with you... They will knowingly and willfully destroy your life (given the chance) just to have sex with you. And I include this as a privilege that I now have, because you can use it to your advantage or you can allow people to destroy you, physically and emotionally... psychologically..
Women have power, especially attractive women and young women. I will never take it for granted (having been denied it for many years) but I know many do.
Yeah, guys have been opening doors for me for years before I began transition, but recently I had a flat on my jeep and some guys stop on I-95 and changed it for me and then last week I had the hoop up on my Mustang and 4 guys (at my apartment) stopped and asked if they could help me, I guys a dump blonde doesn't know that much about cars, but it is still rather great.
Jill, I wish I knew when guys are checking me out, my girlfriends at work tell me when ever a guy is checking me out but I just don't get it, still.[/b]
Quote from: JillEclipse on March 27, 2010, 09:55:48 PM
How can you tell if a man is checking you out?
The most obvious one is when their expression changes and their eyes tend to go up and down, or at least down (to the boobs). The more playerish they are the better they hide it, then there's other cues.
Quote from: ErickaM on March 29, 2010, 07:40:00 PM
Jill, I wish I knew when guys are checking me out, my girlfriends at work tell me when ever a guy is checking me out but I just don't get it, still.[/i]
I always know when a guy is checking me out, eyes on my cleavage, then my feminine intuition, and being overly helpful, yesterday at a hardware store, just getting light gardening stuff, getting seeds, the bags where light, not particularly heavy, but the guy insisted on carrying the bags to my car, said my perfume scent smelt like roses, I smiled and thanked him, he was definitely checking me out, I flirted a little, he was cute, it is a cherish moment when a cute guy see me as an attractive woman, just a pity my boyfriend wasn't with me, he would be so jealous, he gets so jealous when guys start checking me out lol
p
That's the problem with me, I have a lot of those privileges already just being a guy; except female friendships but that wouldn't even happen if I were a female.
It's like in between for me, like I have both worlds, hard to explain since I just look like an average guy. Or maybe it's just all in my head.
My grandmother was a proper lady. She didn't drive. She had driven when she was young, but before World War I she entered a busy T intersection in a large city even though she didn't have the right-of-way and was hit by a coal truck.
Her explanation was that the truck driver could clearly see that she was a woman and should have let her go ahead. And since people didn't drive that way, she stopped driving.
I always thought this was just a funny story, but now that I am driving about as someone who is clearly a woman I can better understand her thinking. :)
- Kate
None whatsoever.
I got the "privileges" of extra harassment by airport security, open mockery, ejection from a couple of businesses on grounds of making a family uncomfortable (I can't blame them for losing one customer rather than three or four, in conscience). Also an exorcism performed on me and a cracked skull.
This is during / after eight years of work by the way.
I did get the "privilege" of having a few interesting adventures and changing a few people's opinions about transgendered people, but I have to ask -- I don't mind benefiting those who will come after me, that's how civilization progresses, but why hasn't my paying it forward gotten me any benefits?
Better, I think, to give up.
(EDIT: Cute captcha. M MAN B)
Some of these things have probably already been mentioned, but these are the things I have noticed.
-Women include me in their conversations when in the bathroom. This surprised me the first time that this has happened. Even my friends that know I'm trans strike up conversations with me in the bathroom. I also go in groups with my friends.
-Men hold doors open for me all the time. This one guy nearly tripped over his feet when he hurried past me to open the door for me today. This one guy from this ultra conservative town even tipped his cowboy hat to me when I passed through. I had on my princessesque dress and cloak this other time (yes i own a cloak) and this guy did a half bow while holding the door open and said 'for milady'. I had to do a princessesque curtsey after that one.
I'm not even hot or anything, just more cute in a nerdy way.
-people no longer expect me to like cars and sports. Some people might view this as a negative, but for me I hated when pre-transition people thought I cared who won the game and if that car made a loud vroom sound. I looked very bookwormish, why would it surprise them if I didn't know what a hemi was?
-I can be near kids and no one feels the need to sound an alarm. Too bad, babies kind of annoy me. Now animal babies on the other hand are the cutiest things ever.
-I walk with a playful bounce in my step, hop-walk down steps, sometimes skip, or half twirl, but now people find it cute rather than as a reason to beat me up.
-I was carrying groceries home in the rain and a guy my age pulled over to give me a lift.I didnt take him up on the offer, but he was kind of cute. I also get a lot of guys offering to carry things for me which is helpful because I struggle to now open even a bottle of juice.
-women compliment me on my dresses and skirts all the time, asking where did i get them. I also use plushie purses such as that of a penguin which garner a lot of compliments. My female friends ask to borrow my skirts often. It surprised me to find girls jeolous of me, specifically my shoe and dress size.
-i can show emotions in public and even cry when something bad happens without being called homophobic slurs.
I am still a bit new to this but so far:
-Men don't squeeze my hand so hard when we shake hands (thank goodness)
-Men hold the door open for me now and that is nice
-I have always felt more comfortable being friends with females but it is even better now
-Clothes!!!! I hated how limited an boring men's clothing was to me.
-Guys buying drinks for me. (I always wondered how that felt on the other side)
-Dancing with guys - especially this guy I met this weekend. Wow! I am 6'1" and this guy was at least 6'6" and HUGE (muscular). I felt so vulnerable but safe at the same time. I knew that if anyone messed with me they would deeply regret it. :)
-Male horseplay crap is history and I ALWAYS hated that.
There is no 'privilege' in being female.
Males have all the privilege.
Feminism 101.
Free drinks at the bar! ;D
Quote from: gothique11 on April 07, 2010, 04:26:10 AM
Free drinks at the bar! ;D
Quote from: casorce on April 07, 2010, 05:34:36 AM
Free date rape!
There is no free lunch. (Perhaps that expression is prehistoric to many here.)
What I mean is that almost everything has its plusses and minuses. There are advantages to being perceived male. There are advantages to being perceived female. Which advantages suit you? And which disadvantages are you willing to accept or protect yourself against?
Even though there are many drawbacks to being a woman in this society, I love being a woman and being treated as one. I'll put up with the loss of status, the perceived decrease in intelligence, and the increased vulnerability because I feel that the opportunity to be free to be myself outweighs them. And I get great strength from being included in the Sisterhood. :)
- Kate
Quote from: casorce on April 07, 2010, 04:11:14 AM
There is no 'privilege' in being female.
Males have all the privilege.
Feminism 101.
Feminism 101 circa 1970, perhaps. Here in the 21st century, some significant privileges enjoyed by women in western societies (those, at least, who are not forced by their families to live under medieval social/religious constraints) include ...
Longer life expectancy
Much lower risk of being incarcerated
Much lower risk of being the victim of violent crime (yes, some men bash women, but they bash each other much more)
Approx 60% of all college places go to female students
The majority of newly-qualified doctors, lawyers and accountants are now female
The majority of post-graduate entrants into media and communications industries are female
Because of those facts above, young women in US cities (and all of the UK) are now earning more than their male contemporaries
Many of those women then choose to work shorter hours in order to bring up their families (overwhelmingly the preferred option for women, including college graduates, when finances allow), a choice frequently not available to men
The clothes are MUCH prettier! :)
Women can say what they like about men, whereas no sane man/politician/columnist would dare insult women in public ;)
Much more research into female cancers, esp. breast and cervical than male cancers, eg. prostate and testicular, tho the numbers of men that die from prostate cancer are roughly similar to female deaths from breast cancer
Much more specific legislation conferring employment rights, freedoms from discrimination, etc, on women (clearly there's a reason why women have needed this, but even so)
No danger of the X-chromosome becoming extinct, unlike the Y
My point is, the battles may not be over, but it's clear who's going to win the war ... and it isn't men.
Here are the "privileges" I have experienced:
-I now get hooted and hollered at in a sexual way, whereas before I was only shouted at for being a "->-bleeped-<-got" or looking weird
-I now feel more at risk on the streets at night
-I now have misguided men leap to my assistance, even though I'm taller and stronger than many of them
-I now feel more pressure and insecurity about my image
-I'm now judged unworthy according to a different set of ludicrous and demeaning standards
I suppose women are a tad more comfortable speaking to me now, but that was always the case, because I looked like a "->-bleeped-<-gy" androgynous boy anyhow.
I'm afraid I just don't get the idea that the gendered double standard is a good thing, and should be relished or celebrated.
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on April 07, 2010, 11:58:11 AM
I'm afraid I just don't get the idea that the gendered double standard is a good thing, and should be relished or celebrated.
Good or bad, it exists, you can enjoy the good and let the bad go or make a point as you have.
I always felt that the behaviors you speak of are like mating rituals. You run to open the door in order for a women so they will hopefully see you in a favorable light. Same reasons for opening jars and all the other guy stuff. Just as women wear makeup and bright colors in hope (even if subconsciously) of attracting that perfect male.
I lose some things and gain others. I take it as just the way it is now but admit that what many of you celebrate, aggravated me to no end.
Quote from: LordKAT on April 07, 2010, 12:07:36 PM
I lose some things and gain others. I take it as just the way it is now but admit that what many of you celebrate, aggravated me to no end.
Seconded. I'm honestly baffled by a lot of it. Who wants to be talked to in the bathroom? Or have attention drawn to their clothes? Or their body? I love that I'm invisible now, and when I do get noticed, it's because of
me and not what I'm wearing.
But then I check myself against reality and realize that (1) most girls do seem to like that stuff, and (2) the difference, I guess, is that you ladies are wearing
yourselves on the outside (and thus don't mind it getting noticed) whereas I wasn't.
Quote from: LordKAT on April 07, 2010, 12:07:36 PM
I lose some things and gain others. I take it as just the way it is now but admit that what many of you celebrate, aggravated me to no end.
Yes, and that's one big reason why I love being a woman and you hated it. (And welcome back. :icon_flower:)
Quote from: kyril on April 07, 2010, 12:21:38 PM
But then I check myself against reality and realize that (1) most girls do seem to like that stuff, and (2) the difference, I guess, is that you ladies are wearing yourselves on the outside (and thus don't mind it getting noticed) whereas I wasn't.
And yes again. It's a difference in viewpoint. (Or perhaps a difference in internal gender. ;))
- Kate
Quote from: mija on March 30, 2010, 01:17:40 AM
The most obvious one is when their expression changes and their eyes tend to go up and down, or at least down (to the boobs). The more playerish they are the better they hide it, then there's other cues.
Yeah, the eyes always go to my boobs when men talk to me, its as though they are talking to my boobs, lol. I see that as a privilege because it confirms my womanhood.
Stardust
Quote from: K8 on April 07, 2010, 07:41:25 AM
I'll put up with the loss of status, the perceived decrease in intelligence, and the increased vulnerability because I feel that the opportunity to be free to be myself outweighs them. And I get great strength from being included in the Sisterhood. :)
- Kate
Why
put up with the loss of status when you can fight to gain equal status for women? You can be yourself AND be respected, if you're willing to fight for it.
well I wasn't going to participate in this thread because I find all that sort of thing about privileges gained and lost rather irrelevant, but something which came up in another thread made me think of something which probably was a nice little female privilege to gain (and please don't take this too seriously folks or you'll start to think I'm a sex manaic here ;))
Visually checking a man's package without getting beaten up or insulted for my trouble afterwards. ;D
I suppose by extension, because of that, I can't really complain when, like stardust says, men tend to talk to my chest! (though I do often want to say "Actually I think you'll find I'm up here... about a foot higher.") :laugh:
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 07, 2010, 04:08:07 PM
Visually checking a man's package without getting beaten up or insulted for my trouble afterwards. ;D
Gay bars.
Quote from: casorce on April 07, 2010, 04:10:14 PM
Gay bars.
uh no - having been violently gang raped as a child at school by two gay boys who thought that my open gender "differences" made it ok to "use" me - I had something a phobia about gay men until I was postop, and therefor presumably only of interest to straight or bi men.
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 07, 2010, 04:15:33 PM
uh no - having been violently gang raped as a child at school by two gay boys who thought that my open gender "differences" made it ok to "use" me - I had something a phobia about gay men until I was postop, and therefor presumably only of interest to straight or bi men.
While that's horrible, it doesn't mean it doesn't apply for other pre-transition people. Nor does it make all gay men evil.
I think we need to examine what privilege means:
"a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most"
Pretty much everything stated in this thread has been the gaining of a benefit already enjoyed by other women. Therefore it is not a privilege, since it is not something you enjoy beyond the advantages of most.
The only people you have privilege over is...
Other trans women.
Quote from: casorce on April 07, 2010, 04:20:26 PM
While that's horrible, it doesn't mean it doesn't apply for other pre-transition people. Nor does it make all gay men evil.
Not suggesting for a moment that it does... It was just a silly phobia, which happily is now long since in the past.
and you weren't to know - I was just explaining why your little suggestion didn't really work for me. In any case my own contribution was, as I indicated in the original comment really a bit tongue in cheek, as indeed I think your original riposte was.
Incidentally I am one of those who after 26 years postop does not really consider that I am a transwoman. I would say rather that I am a woman with a trans and intersex past, subtle difference I know.
Anyway no worries
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 07, 2010, 04:27:50 PM
I would say rather that I am a woman with a trans and intersex past, subtle difference I know.
Anyway no worries
I agree Jenny, I am a woman.
Stardust
Quote from: rejennyrated on April 07, 2010, 04:27:50 PM
transwoman
I'd just like to comment on the use of this word.
"Trans woman" is far more appropriate.
We don't go around typing "Blackwoman" or "Jewman", do we?
Well whatever you prefer - but as I haven't considered myself to be one for the best part of 30 years it's not something I have really stopped to think about. I used the term concatenated like that only because it seems to be fairly widely used in forums like this. It was certainly not my intention to offend and if I did I apologise. But I stand corrected.
Quote from: casorce on April 07, 2010, 04:20:26 PM
While that's horrible, it doesn't mean it doesn't apply for other pre-transition people. Nor does it make all gay men evil.
I think we need to examine what privilege means:
"a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most"
Pretty much everything stated in this thread has been the gaining of a benefit already enjoyed by other women. Therefore it is not a privilege, since it is not something you enjoy beyond the advantages of most.
The only people you have privilege over is...
Other trans women.
The point is surely not about the relative levels of privilege among women (cis or trans), but between women and men. Conventionally, men have had all the privilege and so any MTF woman would be seen as losing privilege in transitioning from male to female. The suggestion of this thread is that some privileges might actually be gained along the way.
My own point was simply that women need no longer be seen as the oppressed sex, certainly among young, educated, middle-class females in western society. So a young MTF who was able to complete her education, graduate college and enter the workforce as a woman might even be better off than she would have been as a male.
On the other hand, the gay Iranian men who are forced to transition because homosexuality is a crime punishable by death in Iran, whereas there is no bar to gender reassignment actually lose massively in status, since they live in a society in which women are still treated in many respects as second-class citizens, entirely subordinate to their menfolk.
They gain no female privileges, because there are none to be gained ...
For what it's worth, I think that class, race and education are far more powerful forces of privilege than gender. A wealthy white woman with a college degree and an executive-level job is infinitely more privileged than a male African American who never graduated high school, has no job, is addicted to crack and is about to go to jail on a third-strike offence ... The fact that he could, in theory, hit, rape, wolf-whistle or ogle her doesn't make a whole heap of difference to the fact that she is much, much better off than him.
Quote from: stardust on April 07, 2010, 02:56:34 PM
Yeah, the eyes always go to my boobs when men talk to me, its as though they are talking to my boobs, lol. I see that as a privilege because it confirms my womanhood.
Stardust
Yep absolutely agree stardust, I know exactly what a guy is thinking when his eyes wander and end up glued to my boobs, flaunt it if you have it, it is a female privilege, it does definitely confirm my womanhood.
Quote from: kyril on April 07, 2010, 12:21:38 PM
Seconded. I'm honestly baffled by a lot of it. Who wants to be talked to in the bathroom? Or have attention drawn to their clothes? Or their body? I love that I'm invisible now, and when I do get noticed, it's because of me and not what I'm wearing.
But then I check myself against reality and realize that (1) most girls do seem to like that stuff, and (2) the difference, I guess, is that you ladies are wearing yourselves on the outside (and thus don't mind it getting noticed) whereas I wasn't.
Im not baffled by the lot of it, Im baffled as to why guys love getting dirty smelly and rough, yes I love being a girl/woman, I like a bit of girly gossip in a bathroom, girl talk on men lol, I love getting complements and another woman's opinion on a new dress or outfit, yes it is reality I surpose, ''most girls do seem to like that stuff'' you make it sound so boring, yawn I absolutely love that stuff, I guess Im just like most girls, Im just a typicial WOMAN!
P
Quote from: Carlita on April 07, 2010, 04:59:49 PM
The point is surely not about the relative levels of privilege among women (cis or trans), but between women and men. Conventionally, men have had all the privilege and so any MTF woman would be seen as losing privilege in transitioning from male to female. The suggestion of this thread is that some privileges might actually be gained along the way.
Gained? No. It would be an exchange of privileges. An exchange with a very poor ratio.
QuoteMy own point was simply that women need no longer be seen as the oppressed sex, certainly among young, educated, middle-class females in western society.
An invalid point. Even these women still suffer from sexism, misogyny and pay disparity.
QuoteSo a young MTF who was able to complete her education, graduate college and enter the workforce as a woman might even be better off than she would have been as a male.
No, she still suffers from sexism, misogyny and pay disparity (amongst a plethora of other things).
QuoteOn the other hand, the gay Iranian men who are forced to transition because homosexuality is a crime punishable by death in Iran, whereas there is no bar to gender reassignment actually lose massively in status, since they live in a society in which women are still treated in many respects as second-class citizens, entirely subordinate to their menfolk.
They may have it far worse than white, western women, but that doesn't mean that western women have it
good. Comparatively, they are better of, but compared to white, western men, they still do not have equality.
I'm getting a hint of "Almost equal is good enough!" from your statement.
I say that FULL equality is good enough.
QuoteFor what it's worth, I think that class, race and education are far more powerful forces of privilege than gender.
Totally agree.
QuoteA wealthy white woman with a college degree and an executive-level job is infinitely more privileged than a male African American who never graduated high school, has no job, is addicted to crack and is about to go to jail on a third-strike offence ... The fact that he could, in theory, hit, rape, wolf-whistle or ogle her doesn't make a whole heap of difference to the fact that she is much, much better off than him.
However, within his socio-economic strata, a woman is still worse off than him.
Quote from: casorce on April 07, 2010, 03:23:38 PM
Why put up with the loss of status when you can fight to gain equal status for women? You can be yourself AND be respected, if you're willing to fight for it.
I have been a feminist since the '50s. I fought for reproductive rights and opening male-dominated careers to women, among other things, and will continue to fight for them. Women in the developed world have made great strides but we aren't there yet. I know that our sisters in many countries are held at a level somewhere below that of livestock, and I will do what I can to work toward freeing them. I accept the world as it is while trying to make it better.
As a woman, I am very well respected within my community and have had no evidence that I wasn't when I traveled elsewhere.
Meanwhile, I see being able to participate in the chattiness of women, the admiration by women of my clothes and makeup and hair, the chivalry of men (regardless of their ulterior motives ::)), the opportunities to flirt and be flirted with, the freedom to touch another while talking to him or her, the freedom to dance around or act silly for no reason, and the opportunity to just be free to be myself as privileges that I didn't have before.
- Kate
Then I'm confused as to why you 'put up' with the loss of privilege/status.
I had to be curious.
Main Entry: priv·i·lege
Pronunciation: \ˈpriv-lij, ˈpri-və-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin privilegium law for or against a private person, from privus private + leg-, lex law
Date: 12th century
: a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor ; especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office
The bolded part seems to mean that female or male privilege is accurate.
Quote from: casorce on April 07, 2010, 07:00:11 PM
Then I'm confused as to why you 'put up' with the loss of privilege/status.
Quote from: K8 on April 07, 2010, 06:57:37 PM
I accept the world as it is while trying to make it better.
Quote from: casorce on April 07, 2010, 04:36:33 PM
I'd just like to comment on the use of this word.
"Trans woman" is far more appropriate.
We don't go around typing "Blackwoman" or "Jewman", do we?
Heh. Maybe not, but we do still have terms like foreman/forewoman, Englishman/Englishwoman, let's see, tribesman/tribeswoman, and quite a few others that tend to come in gendered pairs. Then there's ombudsman (now, on my campus, altered to the vastly more cumbersome but highly PC
ombudsperson), adman (I've never seen adwoman, but it might exist), mailman (still in common use, although the PC term, even for males, is the two-word term
mail carrier)...me, I'm still waiting for manhole cover to become personhole cover. Which, I suppose, is beside the point but worth mentioning.
English. Gotta love it.
Quote from: Arch on April 07, 2010, 08:04:08 PM
I'm still waiting for manhole cover to become personhole cover.
I thought that was a "service access cover". ;D
- Kate
Quote from: Arch on April 07, 2010, 08:04:08 PM
Heh. Maybe not, but we do still have terms like foreman/forewoman, Englishman/Englishwoman, let's see, tribesman/tribeswoman, and quite a few others that tend to come in gendered pairs. Then there's ombudsman (now, on my campus, altered to the vastly more cumbersome but highly PC ombudsperson), adman (I've never seen adwoman, but it might exist), mailman (still in common use, although the PC term, even for males, is the two-word term mail carrier)...me, I'm still waiting for manhole cover to become personhole cover. Which, I suppose, is beside the point but worth mentioning.
English. Gotta love it.
Regardless, trans woman is correct. Transwoman is incorrect.
Ok this thread is becoming congested and off topic. This wasn't mean to be a debate on who has more privileges, why someone would want to give up their male privileges, or why people aren't fighting harder for said privilege. Or even on if the use of Transwomen is correct or incorrect (both uses of transwomen or trans women are correct BTW).
Let's try to stay on topic, and remember to express our opinions as just that, opinions. This isn't about who is right or wrong and proving a point.
And now back to your regularly scheduled programing...
Holy, crazy thread going all wacko all over. o_0
Of course I know that there's no such thing as a free lunch. I was just being cheeky. :P
I would think that one of you would think having a guy buy lunch would be a privilege and that would make it a free lunch.
I know I have bought more than a few.
As rejennyrated could tell you -- people who don't think there is anything like a free lunch have never worked in showbiz. Particularly the movies. Yikes, Craft Services puts out so much food that I don't know anyone who has ever done a movie and not gained weight.
Quote from: LordKAT on April 08, 2010, 09:25:14 AM
I would think that one of you would think having a guy buy lunch would be a privilege and that would make it a free lunch.
I know I have bought more than a few.
Be careful not to conflate 'privilege' with benevolent sexism.
I can pay for my own lunch - I earn more than any of the men I've had lunch with.
Is chivaly benevolent sexism? I don't think it has to be. Especially when there is a balance to it. For example, my partner can buy me lunch all the time, but in return I'm gonna pamper them and treat him like a little lost puppy or delicate flower when they get the man flu. That is my female privilege. I actually really enjoy that aspect of being a woman.
I like men opening doors for me, or helping me carry my drum kit. It is nice, and they are stronger than me and carry my kit much more easily than I do. I feel respected and valued as a result. I don't care if it says I am weaker, cause the reality is I probably am (actually I am freakishly strong but they don't know that).
As soon as I started wearing skirts my band mates started to help me move my kit about. I don't think they even realise they do it. I think that is female privilege. My privilege is also that I now have to listen to a lot more of their relationship woes, which I like to do. So it works for me and them.
Actually, come to think of it I love it when Butch lesbians treat me the same way a lot of men do. Got to love the butch dykes. I do.
Quote from: casorce on April 08, 2010, 03:42:30 PM
Be careful not to conflate 'privilege' with benevolent sexism.
I can pay for my own lunch - I earn more than any of the men I've had lunch with.
So you admit that women today can and often do earn more than men, then? Glad we're agreed on that ... ;)
Quote from: Nicky on April 08, 2010, 03:53:30 PM
Is chivaly benevolent sexism?
In my opinion, it certainly is.
The actions of chivalry state that women are weak and incapable, that they are second class citizens and that this behaviour is a kick-back for being treated like second class citizens.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi276.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fkk34%2Ffeministing%2Fman-assisting-woman_15476-38dg.jpg&hash=2b33aee81a548f4ab90e43e91051a8fda8ed4994)
"Okay, now you HAVE to cook me dinner."
Post Merge: April 08, 2010, 04:04:15 PM
Quote from: Carlita on April 08, 2010, 03:55:44 PM
So you admit that women today can and often do earn more than men, then? Glad we're agreed on that ... ;)
I got my job by virtue of white, cis male privilege.
I don't know, from my perspective I feel like I am treated as a first class citizen, it feels more like respect. Certainly this behaviour has its origins in what you are talking about.
But I think that is a good deal, you protect me, shelter me, treat me like a goddess and I will definitly cook you dinner, it will be a pleasure. (and I will make more money than you regardless)
I think chivalrous women are hot. Give me a girl that buys me dinner, opens doors for me and holds my purse, and I will simper and smile and get them a beer and do most of the cleaning. But I will also go out hunting and kill stuff and change the oil in the car. That is my privalege, I can have it like I want it.
Quote from: Nicky on April 08, 2010, 04:07:04 PM
I don't know, from my perspective I feel like I am treated as a first class citizen. Certainly this behaviour has its origins in what you are talking about.
I'd speculate that you feel that way because you're still in the 'honeymoon' phase of being a woman.
QuoteBut I think that is a good deal, you protect me, shelter me, treat me like a goddess and I will definitly cook you dinner, it will be a pleasure. (and I will make more money than you regardless)
Whereas I want mutual respect; you protect me, I protect you. You treat me like a goddess, I treat you like a king. I cook you dinner, you cook me dinner, etc.
I'm in no honeymoon baby. But maybe you are right, at some point the grim reality of having men open doors for me will hit and it will make me feel terrible. ::)
But I think we are talking about the same thing. It is all about balance, mutual respect. You scratch my back how I like and I will scratch yours how you like it. I think we just like our backs scratched in different ways is all.
For example, I prefer to do the cooking. I'm better at it than my exwife and take pleasure in it. As a tradeoff she does other things like the washing. It works for us.
Quote from: Nicky on April 08, 2010, 04:23:26 PM
I'm in no honeymoon baby. But maybe you are right, at some point the grim reality of having men open doors for me will hit and it will make me feel terrible. ::)
Or feel useless, second class, worthless, ineffectual, weak, powerless or exploited.
I understand that having a door held open because you are female is a heady feeling, as it affirms that people are seeing you as female.
But shouldn't
everyone hold doors open for other people, regardless of gender?
What disadvantages have you found from being female? What privileges have you lost?
casorce, perhaps this thread will be more up your alley- https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,73133.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,73133.0.html)
;)
Quote from: Osiris on April 08, 2010, 04:47:16 PM
casorce, perhaps this thread will be more up your alley- https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,73133.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,73133.0.html)
;)
No.
Quote from: casorce on April 08, 2010, 04:40:42 PM
Or feel useless, second class, worthless, ineffectual, weak, powerless or exploited.
I understand that having a door held open because you are female is a heady feeling, as it affirms that people are seeing you as female.
But shouldn't everyone hold doors open for other people, regardless of gender?
What disadvantages have you found from being female? What privileges have you lost?
I know you like to think I am in fairytale land, and I know that you think things will be the same for me as it were for you. Bad assumption. Admittedly the woman thing is slightly more recent though. But I have always enjoyed it when people open doors for me etc. Been over a decade now, still has not worn thin. I love it. When do you think that will wear off?
Lets face it. You are a big strong woman that prides herself on her strength. Anything that might go against that view is going to rub you the wrong way. I don't have the same view on things.
Um, disadvantages? None so far. How about you?
I think people should open doors if they are nice, and not if they are not - or open doors if they think someone is nice, and not if not.
In fact everyone 'round these parts seems to a) hold doors for everyone, or b) holds them for no-one.
Good manners are just that. Good manners. They are the oil of society. They don't reflect inferiority; except to people who do not understand good manners.
Cindy
I haven't really experienced the whole privileges gained yet but I mean I think this is a variance thing. Some people are considerate (ie holding doors regardless if a person is close etc) and some are not. I don't think gender is as central to some of these things as we would imagine since for most people it would just be something courteous
From my own experiences, men hold the door open differently for men and women. Pre-transition it would be more of a push open so that I can grab the door handle and they will hold it for a much shorter length of time. When I went fulltime, men hold the door open longer and even hold the door wide open, letting me go through first. I've never gotten the latter pre-transition except when I am carrying something heavy.
Back to the chivalry topic, I believe that yes, chivalry is benevolent sexism. It's specifically based in the idea that women are delicate, weak flowers that need to be protected by men.
That doesn't mean that doing something considerate like holding open doors or being "gentlemanly" can only be motivated by chivalry. Personally, I love holding doors for people, taking my partner out for a meal, pampering him and making him feel like a princess, killing spiders for him so I feel like a knight in shining armor (pfft). But when I do it, it has nothing to do with whether or not the person I'm interacting with is male or female.
Chivalry is sexism, plain and simple. It's mean to men and women, since it assumes that women are weak, while ignoring the needs of men who might actually need or like others to assist them.
Personally, I agree with others that the antidote to chivalry is simply to be nice and considerate to everyone. I don't mind having a door held open for me; I mind having it held open for me because I am perceived as female. That offends me. Courtesy should be a matter of human decency, not a matter of gender (or race, or class, or anything else).
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on April 10, 2010, 02:31:39 AM
Chivalry is sexism, plain and simple. It's mean to men and women, since it assumes that women are weak, while ignoring the needs of men who might actually need or like others to assist them.
Personally, I agree with others that the antidote to chivalry is simply to be nice and considerate to everyone. I don't mind having a door held open for me; I mind having it held open for me because I am perceived as female. That offends me. Courtesy should be a matter of human decency, not a matter of gender (or race, or class, or anything else).
I agree, that's why I said good manners. It appalls me to see a pregnant woman having to stand on a bus while non-pregnant (presumed) women and men allow her to, or at least do not offer her a seat. I'm equally dismayed if a man who is elderly or infirm or is carrying his child etc is not shown the same courtesy.
If people are being sexist in showing courtesy it is wrong. If people are being polite it is correct.
That said, try pushing a person in a wheelchair around a busy shopping centre. I can tell you which gender display manners, and it's not usually male.
Cindy
I have been a proud feminist since I was a teenager. I agree with much of what you all say here. Still...
When the gray-haired man at the gas station holds the door for me and uses the opportunity to flirt a little, when I go to the military base and the cute sergeant nods and says "ma'am" with a twinkle in his eye, and when I go to the pistol range and the guys treat me as special – I like it.
I see it all as an acknowledgment of me as a woman, and of respect, and fun. Yes, women still have a ways to go before we are treated equally, but let's not be too uptight about the little gifts of attention men give us in the meantime. :)
- Kate
I think there can be shades of such behavior, and under the right circumstances it may feel good. Flirting would seem to be one of those circumstances, because the message is converted from "I'm helping you because you're a woman" to "I want to make your day easier because I find you attractive/charming," which is totally reasonable. Also, I've known a few men to be "chivalrous" towards me simply because they like me as a person and want to be friendly.
I do also know one particularly kind and warm-hearted guy who acts "chivalrous" because he believes - no matter how much I try to dissuade him from the notion - that women are superior to men. Then again, he's pretty nice to everybody in the first place - what my grandmother would call a mensch (a good, warm, upstanding person).
I like to be a girl
My favourite privilege due to being female is the female sexual experience. Wow is it beautiful! In my opinion its 100% different than the male experience. I'd never trade it.
Oh yea gotta give boobs an honourable mention too. Sometimes when I'm feeling down I'll take a break with my boobs and, just like that, I'm right! ;D
*edit :just noticed this is an olddd thread
Quote from: MiaOhMya! on February 26, 2013, 08:47:00 PM
My favourite privilege due to being female is the female sexual experience. Wow is it beautiful! In my opinion its 100% different than the male experience. I'd never trade it.
Oh yea gotta give boobs an honourable mention too. Sometimes when I'm feeling down I'll take a break with my boobs and, just like that, I'm right! ;D
*edit :just noticed this is an olddd thread
i really agree with you. i love all the positive attention i get from guys. its such a good change ::)
oh, good lord.
female (http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/) privilege (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/) does (http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2011/11/female-privilege/) not (http://thehathorlegacy.com/ironic-take-on-female-privilege-exposes-male-ignorance/) exist (http://clarissasblog.com/2012/12/02/why-female-privilege-list-is-garbage/).
this is basic, 101 stuff. using that word, "privilege", like, i don't think it means what you think it means. it's not "nice things that you are happy about and also coincidentally you are female when they occur". it's not even "nice things that you are able to access solely through being female and perceived as such". the word "privilege" refers to systematic discrimination through institutional power, which is something that's going hells of against the grain when it comes to justice for women.
call this thread "great things about being a woman" all you want, but don't call it privilege, because it ain't.
for what it's worth, our highest earner in my entire store is a woman, and she single-handedly has higher gross profits than our entire internet sales department... And she's only been in the business 2 months. The world's changing, and women are taking over!
Quote from: MiaOhMya! on February 26, 2013, 08:47:00 PM
My favourite privilege due to being female is the female sexual experience. Wow is it beautiful! In my opinion its 100% different than the male experience. I'd never trade it.
Oh yea gotta give boobs an honourable mention too. Sometimes when I'm feeling down I'll take a break with my boobs and, just like that, I'm right! ;D
*edit :just noticed this is an olddd thread
My Favourite privilege is also the female sexual experience, The feeling is amazing and it feels like my whole body is going to explode and you feel so relaxed afterwards.
I am pre-op, so I have only experienced a female type orgasm through anal sex and yes it can be addictive. I went home a very satisfied girl that evening. I cant wait to be post-op to experience an orgasm through vaginal sex.
another thing, is the choice of female clothing, Woman have much more to choose from. Men, have causal and smart... wow woman have so much in between, different styles.
I also love the softness of woman's underwear against my skin and nothing beats the feeling of pantyhose on freshly shaven legs and you are wearing a skirt.. a breeze feels amazing when it blows around under your skirt (cant describe this one too well)
Affirming myself as female, in looks and in personal value, is a privilege for me!
I no longer have to be slave to what other people's perceptions of me should be in terms of any masculinity or whatever.
I've been wearing skirts to make up for my lost time... and HOW! :D
I like how waiting staff automatically assumes if I'm with a guy, that he is going to pay for dinner.
Quote from: transtrender on February 27, 2013, 02:28:54 AM
oh, good lord.
female (http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/faq-female-privilege/) privilege (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/) does (http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2011/11/female-privilege/) not (http://thehathorlegacy.com/ironic-take-on-female-privilege-exposes-male-ignorance/) exist (http://clarissasblog.com/2012/12/02/why-female-privilege-list-is-garbage/).
this is basic, 101 stuff. using that word, "privilege", like, i don't think it means what you think it means. it's not "nice things that you are happy about and also coincidentally you are female when they occur". it's not even "nice things that you are able to access solely through being female and perceived as such". the word "privilege" refers to systematic discrimination through institutional power, which is something that's going hells of against the grain when it comes to justice for women.
call this thread "great things about being a woman" all you want, but don't call it privilege, because it ain't.
I'm totally for womens rights, and before I transitioned I thought they were stupid. However, cmon... lighten up ::)
I also have to agree with Alainaluvsu points. also that other point on the female big O. theres just so many great things about being female. such as i love the way my guy treats me like a queen. unlike a few people from my past who still treat me like a guy this one see's me as a woman and treats me as such. best thing ever! ;D
I have found so many more privileges being a woman than I did being a man. In my industry, there is no difference between what men get paid and what women get paid.