It's been really bothering me that I couldn't come to any sorts of conclusions on why it was that I wanted to be a woman besides esoteric pseudo-reasons.
Today I was out shopping and I figured it out. It's the sexuality that women can just access and flaunt whenever they want. There are some guys who do this, but everybody hates them. And how awesome it is to intentionally go out and y'know, do your hair, and your make-up "Does this outfit look good? How about this one?" It's such an intentional manner in which to go about your identity, not at all the way most guys do it where their identities are happy accidents. Then you go out, throw your shoulders back and shake your hair, saunter like you're wearing heels even when you're not and you have this feeling of confidence. A feeling of power. I wasn't even dressed when I went out today, and I was turning heads just because I was in a feminine mood. I think most of the people that saw me in passing today must have thought I was a girl. (To be fair, I do have a very feminine face.)
But yeah. It's just nice to look good, and have people acknowledging that you look good.
It is a great feeling being a woman.
Being on the web and seeing... reading about "trans" stuff kinda freaks me out a little bit. But, having GID is "freaky" for lack of a better word. And having the wrong 'brain sex' for your body and your life is a real puzzling situation or a real "conundrum".
I think that most of us really try to make the most of what life forced on us. I did my best to be "male". I tried to fulfill my "obligations" to be male. I even overcompensated, I really tried and gave it my best shot. And when I considered my plight and the thing between my legs, it seemed obvious that I was "male", I mean I was sane and the thing between my legs was obviously a "male" thing.
And I was poor, I had no Internet, no computer and I didn't know about all the options. I didn't know there was such a thing as FFS. I didn't know I could have GRS or SRS. I thought people who transitioned were "movie stars" or well-to-do television celebrities, people who had the means that I lacked. And I really didn't know anything about anything regarding "transition".
So being stuck as "male", and having my entire life be a consequence of being "male", I had a lot of self doubts and in fact not so much doubts but I just didn't know anything else. My life and my body were against me and all I had were some feeble "ideas".
Ten years later and being on the other side of transition, I realize that I in fact was never male. But it is because our bodies, our lives and our experiences shape our ideas.
I remember hearing people talk about how they wore women's clothes when they were three years old and all the crazy stories about how when they were three years old they knew they were female, etc. It seemed like people told those sorts of stories (on the web) in order to justify transition or in order to set themselves above other transitioners or to validate themselves.
But I remember how my own mother shamed me and referred to me with derogatory words, suggesting that I acted gay or queer, referring to me as a little "->-bleeped-<-got" in order to try and make me like normal boys. My mother was and is a hyper-religious Catholic and no doubt whoever I was got shamed out of me at an early age. What ever I was got frightened out of me. And I was told what I was and how to act and I needed the acceptance of my parents as a child. So I didn't become one of those wonder kids who wore women's clothing at the age of three and told everyone I was a girl. I just tried to fit in and not get hurt.
But what I am saying is that being on the entry side of transition, our ideas about ourselves tend to be a product of not being the right sex (on the outside). The dysphoria seems to worsen with time. I remember how when I was on the entry side of transition how everytime I said I was a "woman", what I was really saying was that being male was wrong for me. It was obvious that I was not a woman like women were. I was for lack of a better phrase, preparing for battle, battle against preconceived ideas about me. Battle against my body, battle against my life. I was going to murder the male in me, kill it, destroy it and come out on the exit side of transition as a female.
Still... at the time I really didn't know I was going to be victorious and honestly I never knew I would ever make it this far. And my ideas reflected my lack of knowledge. My statements about myself reflected my ignorance and lack of experience.
So when I read what you say about wanting to be a woman, it reminds me of seeing being a woman as something that was outside of me. But being a woman is something that is inside of you, you just have to feed it and nourish it and allow it to grow. Being a woman is something inside of you and when you care for it, make sacrifices for it, overcome fears for it, work hard and accomplish goals for it, then it becomes like it is for other women, something that is outside of you as well as inside of you. And for me that is what transition is all about. And my ideas now are much like the ideas of other women. Of course I am a woman, I never "wanted" to be a woman, I had to be a woman because that is what I am and that is what I have always been.
Men are in fact just as multi-dimensional as women are, just in slightly different ways. Though it may not be as blatantly obvious, many guys take a lot of pride/interest/attention to their grooming.
And, I think that guys work just as hard to create an identity as women do. That's it's a different kind of identity, is not to dismiss it out of hand.
I agree with T.
I think our perceptions are colored by the fact that mt? trans people, aside from the trans men, are not men. So it feels hollow to us. Our own masculine constructed personas are ultimately shellow things, a veneer over our true selves and lacking the dimensions a male has.
Hmm. People have different approaches to themselves and how they see their identity. Are you a man who wants to be a woman so that you can have access to what women seem to have so easily, or do you feel that you're a woman already? Or something else? As Tekla points out, men do have some options in the areas that you talk about; have you explored them? Or is womanhood the only option?
Here's my experience. I had many hurdles to transition; I won't list them here. But I never took action until I stopped thinking of myself as a woman who wanted to be a man and started feeling that I already was a man. It wasn't that I wanted what men had--in fact, there's a lot that I don't want--but that didn't matter because I was male. It's a package deal. I just felt that if I wanted to stay alive, transition was my only option.
I know one woman who feels that she was a man who wanted to be a woman. Her experience is not mine, but she found a way to be happy and be herself.
P.S. No, I'm not saying that transition or die is the only experience we all share.
I tend to be analytic about things and have put considerable effort into understanding why. An equal amount of effort was invested on denial. As others have said, the 'dysphoria' gets worse with time. Denial wasn't working. I ended up in the hospital twice.
Acceptance, on the other hand, has helped. I've been on hrt for 6 months and feel much better.
I don't know why. Who would choose such a life. I'm too old and my body is such that I will never pass. Somehow accepting who I am and taking hormones has helped.
I've read the papers everyone else has. It could be we where or weren't exposed to the proper hormone at some time in our development and that permanantly threw the switch in the wrong direction.
I was watching a nature program one day about a certain moth. This moth seeks out a particular type of tree and lays it's eggs. When the resulting caterpillar comes of age it chews the main stem running along the backside of the leaf. After the leaf is folded like a book it begins to make a cocoon in just such a way that the folded leaf rolls into a tube. The caterpillar crawls inside and waits to become a moth, mate, find an identical tree, and start the process over.
What struck me was that all of this behavior is genetic. There is no interaction with the parent. There is no caterpillar school to teach them where to chew, or how to construct a cocoon in just the right way, or even to know when it's time to crawl inside and wait. When they become a moth somehow they know to mate and find an identical tree. All programmed into the genes.
My thinking is that we all have both male and female programs. In some of us, maybe 1 in 30000, maybe 1 in 5000, the wrong program is switched on. We don't understand it. It's effect is anything but a survival trait. In fact, I've read 30% of transgendered people are dead before their 30th birthday, generally by their own hand.
It's crazy. Their is no logical reasoning that can explain it or justify our feelings. It just is, always has been, and always will be.
I'm no expert, but, I know denial was headed in the wrong direction and I have the scars to prove it. The only thing that has helped is acceptance.
Quote from: tekla on March 05, 2010, 02:40:54 PM
Men are in fact just as multi-dimensional as women are, just in slightly different ways. Though it may not be as blatantly obvious, many guys take a lot of pride/interest/attention to their grooming.
And, I think that guys work just as hard to create an identity as women do. That's it's a different kind of identity, is not to dismiss it out of hand.
Amen.
Post Merge: March 05, 2010, 04:36:21 PM
Quote from: Nicky on March 05, 2010, 03:13:39 PM
I agree with T.
I think our perceptions are colored by the fact that mt? trans people, aside from the trans men, are not men. So it feels hollow to us. Our own masculine constructed personas are ultimately shellow things, a veneer over our true selves and lacking the dimensions a male has.
Well put.
Being female was just the opposite for me. I was very one dimensional and non expressive as a woman even when I was trying so hard to be one (doing the makeup, trying to walk right, sound right, etc).
For me, it's all about being at peace. I've never been your typical male. It's been funny, but everyone whom I've come out to was very shocked at first because I never dropped evident "clues". But without exception, after knowing the situation, they all have said "I see it. I should have guessed."
The thing that I wonder is what it must be like to be post-op and past the mountain. I'm 46, and this urge to fully transition has been such a part of me, I can't imagine having that burden lifted from me. My spouse has said before that she thinks my ability to focus will be greater. I have to agree.
What I've noticed about being free to be a woman is that I'm free to be me. I would have enjoyed being a man just as much if I was, indeed, a man. But I'm not. When I tried being a man I was very constrained, very uptight, very quiet, very reserved. Now I am just me – Kate – and am friendly and chatty and a bit flirty and loose and free. I was always careful with my grooming but in a quiet way. Now I am a bit flamboyant and it is wonderful!
It isn't because I'm similar to other women, but because I am finally free to be myself. (yay! :))
- Kate
I don't "want" to be a woman, I am, and always have been, me! (and me always was female). I don't really think I ever changed much, I could only be what I am, and that didn't change just because of a few hormones and a bit of skillful surgery. I simply felt a lot more comfortable in my own skin once it was functionally female and matched the rest of me.
Okay, so yeah, guys do have all the same kinds of identity things. And yes, they do take grooming seriously, you're right Tekla, I suppose I just don't want to be the same kind of clean that they are.
I dunno... it just seems constrained to me. There are all of these social rules, and things all guys know they think but they never talk to or even admit to, and you will be ostracized if you ever bring these thoughts to the forefront. It's like a game that I was never told the rules to.
It's like... I'm Canadian and the winter Olympics just happened here as I'm sure everybody knows. After that hockey game, I was like "Cool, we won," but have had to deal with a solid week of pretending that I understand hockey and know the names of the players and junk.
I think it's very important to understand that GID or being that of the opposite sex is not a "want" like a few people have pointed out. IF the is the way that some TS's feel then there is a high chance you will pass this misconception onto others. This is one thing that is stopping the world from understanding and accepting us, because they see it as a want not a need.
You should already feel that you are a woman not that you want to 'become' one or to transition for assumed lifestyle benefits.
Sorry to go over this as it's already been covered, it just really reaaalllyy bugs me.
But apart from that you seem to be doing well, good on ya! ^_^
Quote from: Jester on March 05, 2010, 09:03:06 PM
There are all of these social rules, and things all guys know they think but they never talk to or even admit to, and you will be ostracized if you ever bring these thoughts to the forefront. It's like a game that I was never told the rules to.
That's the thing. I could never quite figure out how to be a man. I'd play the game I didn't quite understand. I always seemed to be missing something. I don't know how many times I'd do something or say somethig and a guy would look at me like: What's wrong with
you?
I had to learn a few things to be a woman, but mostly it just came naturally. (Gee, I wonder if that means something? ::))
- Kate
I know that I *am* a woman, but, anyone ever read epic poetry? Anyone familiar with the accord of word and deed? When you give your word on something, you'd better follow through on it. Last time I checked, I was in the closet, so my word that I *am* a woman doesn't mean crap to anybody, and won't be true until I transcend my current state.
Quote from: Muffin on March 06, 2010, 12:05:17 AM
I think it's very important to understand that GID or being that of the opposite sex is not a "want" like a few people have pointed out. IF the is the way that some TS's feel then there is a high chance you will pass this misconception onto others. This is one thing that is stopping the world from understanding and accepting us, because they see it as a want not a need.
You should already feel that you are a woman not that you want to 'become' one or to transition for assumed lifestyle benefits.
Sorry to go over this as it's already been covered, it just really reaaalllyy bugs me.
But apart from that you seem to be doing well, good on ya! ^_^
I don't think 'the world not understanding us' is going to be changed by whether someone uses the word 'want' or 'need'. Most people that think what we do is wrong, take issue with the very idea of changing (external) genders, and could care less about our motives.
Personally, I don't believe I was born a 'woman' or a 'man'. I was born me. The issue is that the way I instinctively feel comfortable acting, and the way I instinctively feel my body should be, matches up with what society considers 'feminine', despite the fact that I was born XY and society says XY needs to be masculine. For me, this is about being who I am, not about convincing other people to mark F instead of M for me on their mental identity forms.
Quote from: Luv2Dance on March 05, 2010, 02:29:47 PM
Being on the web and seeing... reading about "trans" stuff kinda freaks me out a little bit. But, having GID is "freaky" for lack of a better word. And having the wrong 'brain sex' for your body and your life is a real puzzling situation or a real "conundrum".
I think that most of us really try to make the most of what life forced on us. I did my best to be "male". I tried to fulfill my "obligations" to be male. I even overcompensated, I really tried and gave it my best shot. And when I considered my plight and the thing between my legs, it seemed obvious that I was "male", I mean I was sane and the thing between my legs was obviously a "male" thing.
And I was poor, I had no Internet, no computer and I didn't know about all the options. I didn't know there was such a thing as FFS. I didn't know I could have GRS or SRS. I thought people who transitioned were "movie stars" or well-to-do television celebrities, people who had the means that I lacked. And I really didn't know anything about anything regarding "transition".
So being stuck as "male", and having my entire life be a consequence of being "male", I had a lot of self doubts and in fact not so much doubts but I just didn't know anything else. My life and my body were against me and all I had were some feeble "ideas".
Ten years later and being on the other side of transition, I realize that I in fact was never male. But it is because our bodies, our lives and our experiences shape our ideas.
I remember hearing people talk about how they wore women's clothes when they were three years old and all the crazy stories about how when they were three years old they knew they were female, etc. It seemed like people told those sorts of stories (on the web) in order to justify transition or in order to set themselves above other transitioners or to validate themselves.
But I remember how my own mother shamed me and referred to me with derogatory words, suggesting that I acted gay or queer, referring to me as a little "->-bleeped-<-got" in order to try and make me like normal boys. My mother was and is a hyper-religious Catholic and no doubt whoever I was got shamed out of me at an early age. What ever I was got frightened out of me. And I was told what I was and how to act and I needed the acceptance of my parents as a child. So I didn't become one of those wonder kids who wore women's clothing at the age of three and told everyone I was a girl. I just tried to fit in and not get hurt.
But what I am saying is that being on the entry side of transition, our ideas about ourselves tend to be a product of not being the right sex (on the outside). The dysphoria seems to worsen with time. I remember how when I was on the entry side of transition how everytime I said I was a "woman", what I was really saying was that being male was wrong for me. It was obvious that I was not a woman like women were. I was for lack of a better phrase, preparing for battle, battle against preconceived ideas about me. Battle against my body, battle against my life. I was going to murder the male in me, kill it, destroy it and come out on the exit side of transition as a female.
Still... at the time I really didn't know I was going to be victorious and honestly I never knew I would ever make it this far. And my ideas reflected my lack of knowledge. My statements about myself reflected my ignorance and lack of experience.
So when I read what you say about wanting to be a woman, it reminds me of seeing being a woman as something that was outside of me. But being a woman is something that is inside of you, you just have to feed it and nourish it and allow it to grow. Being a woman is something inside of you and when you care for it, make sacrifices for it, overcome fears for it, work hard and accomplish goals for it, then it becomes like it is for other women, something that is outside of you as well as inside of you. And for me that is what transition is all about. And my ideas now are much like the ideas of other women. Of course I am a woman, I never "wanted" to be a woman, I had to be a woman because that is what I am and that is what I have always been.
Thanks for posting this! I am in the same exact boat you were accept my parents didn't call me names. I actually didn't have a clue what was wrong with me. I just knew I didn't fit in society and grew realizing I totally didn't fit as a male with a female in the bedroom. I wish I could have put the pieces together earlier but life goes on. And at least now I really truly have a life. And I loved your description of nurturing your female self.
I am sorry you had to put up with what you did from your Mom, though.That is really sad.
*sigh* .......... @ Ketsy
Luvtodance
I really sympathise with you in relation to parents and others attempting to shame you out of something.
All it does is make you hate yourself even more that you already did.
Quote from: Ketsy on March 06, 2010, 09:52:26 AM
Most people that think what we do is wrong, take issue with the very idea of changing (external) genders, and could care less about our motives.
I have to disagree with the "most people" part.
At each step farther into public, I've been surprised and gratified to find acceptance from a wide range of both women and men. They treat me simply as the person I present myself to be, and that's all I ever want from anyone.
Early in my journey, I expected and would have welcomed questions. But I've found that either it's not really that important to others or they're too polite to bring it up.
Quote from: Kay Henderson on March 06, 2010, 11:55:25 AM
I have to disagree with the "most people" part.
At each step farther into public, I've been surprised and gratified to find acceptance from a wide range of both women and men. They treat me simply as the person I present myself to be, and that's all I ever want from anyone.
Early in my journey, I expected and would have welcomed questions. But I've found that either it's not really that important to others or they're too polite to bring it up.
I'm with you on this, Kay. I've just started coming out to close friends, alerting them to the fact that there are going to be some changes round here - ;) - and I've been incredibly touched by the kindness, understanding and love with which that news has been received. Women have been really supportive in a very warm and happy-for-me way, and also thrilled that I feel able to be who I truly am. Guys are ... well, they're guys. But they can be sweet, too. This is part of what one male friend wrote to me ...
I'm very relieved that you're reaching a conclusion on this issue and I'm even more pleased that [your wife] is standing by you. I will too and let me explain why. You're my friend. Not as a man or as a woman but as a human being - which transcends both. So even if the shape you inhabit changes, my affection for YOU remains immutable.
However, let me please stress: just because you become a bird doesn't mean that I always have to pay for lunch.
If that's clear then I see no obstacles to our continued friendship.
For what it's worth, I much prefer Bryn [an FTM we both know] as a man and other people I know who have changed genders have become much happier as a result.
One last thought: anyone (apart from your immediate family) who has a problem with what you do can ->-bleeped-<- right off. In other words, if they mind, they don't matter; if they matter, they don't mind.
I matter and I don't mind.Now, that made me feel wonderful. The fact that he felt able to tease me a little about him not paying for lunch made me feel that he was comfortable with the whole thing and that I could be too. His certainty that there was no need to worry about people who have a problem with it gave me confidence that I am making the right decision.
And as to why I want to be a woman ... well ... I just do ... I just am ...
Quote from: Muffin on March 06, 2010, 12:05:17 AM
I think it's very important to understand that GID or being that of the opposite sex is not a "want" like a few people have pointed out.
Muffin, not everyone feels this way.
Quote from: Arch on March 06, 2010, 04:45:53 PM
Muffin, not everyone feels this way.
So are you saying that you know you're female deep down you just have a desire to be male for the experience, benefits or something else just as ridiculous? Because that really is the opposite to what I said.
Last time I checked, Muffin, my plumbing was definitively male. Therefore, "want" to be a woman is definitely a correct way to put it from an empiricist point of view.
Empiricism is when one takes into consideration physical evidence and purely rational thought based on experience. So, the evidence is that I'm male, and experientially I'd say that I've been acting pretty male for my life thus far, and that others perceive this as well. I *want* to be a woman despite all of this empirical evidence, and I feel, inside, that I am a woman.
But if we want to continue mincing words and using extraordinarily antagonistic and reactionary means of argumentation, then by all means.
Also, are you familiar with the concept of a "Straw Man Argument?" It's when you take somebody's honestly held stance and oversimplify it on purpose so that you CAN make a reasonable attack on the newly castrated version of the argument. Your views on the simplified argument may be correct, but it doesn't make your claim against the original argument any more valid.
I don't much care if it's a want or a need. Either is fine by me so long as its a moving up and not a moving out. So that statements like: Because simply put it is a higher expression of myself. And when I was finally able to express that self, I came to love who I am. Now I can soar. seem to follow in the right direction, where statements to the effect that 'I didn't feel right one way' does not automatically equate to the 'other' being a correct choice. If you want it, or need it, to make you a better person, that is a positive. To say 'I wasn't a success' at A, does not mean that B is going to be any better, and that seems like moving out, not moving up.
I don't see myself as wanting to be a woman
I see myself as a woman with a birth defect that I would like to correct
That works also. That way you are moving to, and not just moving away. It's a matter of the goal being a positive or a negative.
Quote from: Jester on March 05, 2010, 09:03:06 PM
It's like a game that I was never told the rules to.
I love this statement.
Personally, I never wanted to be a woman, I just was one. Life would have been so much easier had I just been a man.
Empirically that statement is true, btw. Gender really has nothing to do with the plumbing. Just because you can't see your brain or it's magical inner workings by looking in the mirror, doesn't make it any less real or relevant.
The idea of wanting to be a woman does not sit well with me, or ring true with my experience.
I don't want to discuss the ins and outs of what we consider ourselves to be or from what angle we like to take on it. My issues are with the way the public views us as a whole, we have two choices.
Express our situation in a way that makes sense in that we are born this way or..
Express our situation in a way that makes them see it as a life style choice.
I do consider it unfortunate that we more or less have to work around people's lack of ability to see things as they really are. And that we have to in a way 'dumb' things down and choose our words carefully so they can grasp the concepts and reality of our situations better.
Basically I just think it's best to avoid any wording that can be linked to 'life style choice', because for those that see it that way it is very damaging.. to us. And heresay opinions can spread like wild fire especially with the media.
I know what you mean when you say "Why I want to be a woman". But to say it to someone that doesn't know (putting yourself in someone else's shoes) you can see how it can be taken in a negative way.
I always make a point when telling people about me that it's not a life style choice and it was just the way I was born, I don't know..... maybe this approach has helped me have a 99% strike rate *shrugs*.
I'm sorry this has been blown out of proportion I should of explained my point better the first time, that's assuming it makes sense now? >_>
Quote from: Muffin on March 07, 2010, 02:57:26 AM
I don't want to discuss the ins and outs of what we consider ourselves to be or from what angle we like to take on it. My issues are with the way the public views us as a whole, we have two choices.
Express our situation in a way that makes sense in that we are born this way or..
Express our situation in a way that makes them see it as a life style choice.
I do consider it unfortunate that we more or less have to work around people's lack of ability to see things as they really are. And that we have to in a way 'dumb' things down and choose our words carefully so they can grasp the concepts and reality of our situations better.
Basically I just think it's best to avoid any wording that can be linked to 'life style choice', because for those that see it that way it is very damaging.. to us. And heresay opinions can spread like wild fire especially with the media.
I know what you mean when you say "Why I want to be a woman". But to say it to someone that doesn't know (putting yourself in someone else's shoes) you can see how it can be taken in a negative way.
I always make a point when telling people about me that it's not a life style choice and it was just the way I was born, I don't know..... maybe this approach has helped me have a 99% strike rate *shrugs*.
I'm sorry this has been blown out of proportion I should of explained my point better the first time, that's assuming it makes sense now? >_>
Actually, there's a third choice .. we allow one another to define ourselves in the way that feels truest to ourselves, and we quit making judgments about other people.
I can completely understand and the view that says, 'Right now I am a man, because that is how my body is built and I have been socialized, but I long/want/need/whatever to be a woman,' ... AND ...I respect those who absolutely know in their souls that they are and always have been a woman.'
How can we expect tolerance from other people if we won't even show it to ourselves?
There is NO 'correct' way to be transsexual. There are just individual people trying to make sense of themselves and their situations ...
All 'ways' can be filed under either of those two In My Opinion.
I think Tekla and Carlita have stated what I was trying to say better than I did (was in a bit of a rush).
Muffin I understand your viewpoint, but I don't feel my personal situation is the same as yours, so I don't like the idea that we should all be telling the cis-people that we were born M/F and are just fixing a birth defect (or something along those lines). You may feel that other people will be more understanding/accepting of you if this is what they believe, but at the same time it just enforces another box.
What if someone is born male, agrees that they were born male, and then at some point decides that they want to live the rest of their life as a woman? Personally I don't see a damn thing wrong with that if they've thought it through and are sure about it.
I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't know that I was 'born female', but I know that I grew up never fitting in as male, and I was and am drawn to things that society considers feminine (even if I mostly kept that secret). Mostly I kept it bottled up so I never really *knew* I was female (I don't really know how someone can know that but that's a philosophical point). But about 18 months ago I decided to stop bottling it up and see if the female thing really fit me or not. And I find that it does, that I feel more in touch with myself the more I allow myself to embrace my feminine qualities and interests. So I'm pursuing it. So yes I 'want' to be female, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
Quote from: Ketsy on March 07, 2010, 03:30:34 AM...
What if someone is born male, agrees that they were born male, and then at some point decides that they want to live the rest of their life as a woman? Personally I don't see a damn thing wrong with that if they've thought it through and are sure about it.
...
I think We've managed to boil this down enough to see our differing opinions, for me I do consider the above to be quite questionable.
Not to say my opinion is anyway more or less valid, it's just the way I view it. And if I was CIS then I could understand how I would feel weird about it, I'd see the person as someone like a spy, a fake or just plain creepy.
But again this is just yet another personal opinion.
Sure they can live their own life but some ways will draw more negative attention than others.
Maybe these 'life-style' choicer's shouldn't be lumped in the same boat. To avoid confusion, ha I'll have to dream on in regards to that!
I really get peeved when people assume that what I'm doing is a 'choice', it makes me feel gross. The only choice I ever made was between death and trying to be the real me.
I'm aware that my views on this whole subject are quite harsh. It's just the way I feel about it. :-/
:)
(I really don't belong in this conversation, I'm going to polish my nails now)
@Muffin:
I don't want to sound like I'm trying to tell you that this is a choice for you. I don't disagree with anything you feel about yourself. More what I'm talking about is this -- why is it "creepy" for someone to want to change genders? Why is gender this spooky mystical creepy thing that shouldn't be messed with?
Basically there's about 3 camps:
gender = genitals, don't mess with it (religious people mainly)
gender = internal, sometimes the external doesn't match, but otherwise don't mess with it (what it seems like you're saying)
gender = internal/expression, do whatever you want (sort of where I stand)
I just don't see what good comes from telling other people what they should or should not think about how they understand their own sense of gender.
oooooh I see , yeah no... ok my point of view. To me gender is of the mind the state of being feminine or masculine and to me they are fixed in utero and can't be changed. Sex is of the body, relating to the secondary sexual characteristics between male and female and can (to a degree) be changed.
To me if a man with a male gender 'decides' to change 'his' body to be female then his gender/mind is still male, so to me it would be no different to having a crossdresser in the room. Who ..personally for me I view as a male (internally) but female (externally).
Do I find crossdressers creepy? Not entirely because I know they will go home and undress and accept that their core is male. But I do find a man who's outer skin has been changed to be female to be creepy yes. It's no different to wearing a mask, which is deceitful when the mask is 'fulltime'.
I get the impression from Muffin's statement, that it is a matter of emphasis.
I think you're holding on to some ideas that I'm not sure you're even aware of. For example, there are countless accounts of women who would dress up as men, and play the entire male societal role, just so they could do some profession that they really wanted to do, but were denied since they were women. Women who wanted to be actors, or musicians, or even soldiers, or countless other things. They changed their gender presentation, and sex characteristics (visible anyway) to be male 24/7. Is that creepy? Why is it creepy for a man to do the exact same thing? Because we can't figure out the motivation? Easy to see why a woman would do it when they were oppressed. So I think that sometimes we rationalize that it's okay for people to do this gender-crossing stuff when we can understand their motivations, but it's not okay when we can't understand their motivations. But that has nothing to do with them and everything to with our pre-conceived notions of gender.
Let's say you were born as you were, woman in a male body. Except you were abandoned at birth and somehow managed to survive on your own in the wild. If we accept on face value that as a 'woman' trapped on a 'male' body, you would still suffer some form of gender conflict. But how would you know you were a 'woman'? You would just know that *something* about the way you feel doesn't match with the physical aspect of your body. That these things are 'woman' and 'male' is secondary, you find out what those mean when you see other people performing their gender roles in society. And you say, yes I see how that woman acts, and that's how I act, so even though I have male physical parts, I identify as a woman because internally I feel like she does. But even this has more hidden assumptions - namely that the women you encounter are feminine women, and not let's say, butch lesbians who drive cargo trucks. If those were the only women I ever met, I'm not sure I would say I wanted to be a 'woman' because that idea wouldn't really match with my internal idea. But I'd still want to be me, in all the non-male ways I see in myself right now.
That kind of paradox is why I can't really get behind this idea that I was born a 'woman' but with a male body. I was born me. I've never really felt comfortable with the stereotypical male role, or with the more male body parts (in my case I have some pretty feminine aspects aside from genitals and face area). The truth is that I love lots of really 'girly' things like dresses and makeup and fashion and the idea of motherhood/pregnancy, the list goes on. But I also like 'manly' things like computer science, violent video games, and sex with women (imagined only so far). But there are genetic women who like those 'manly' things, and genetic men who like those 'girly' things. So it's all kind of nutty. But transition feels right for me so far, so I'm going with it.
Personally, I'm disappointed that one transsexual finds another transsexual 'creepy' because they disagree with their definition of what it means to be transgender. I'd hope we wouldn't be stigmatizing one another like that.
As for the argument that women will feel 'invaded' by all these fake, not-female-enough T-girls, I can only speak for my own experience which is that the girlfriends I've spoken to about transitioning take the view that they want me to be happy, and to be as true to myself as possible, and if that means transitioning, then they are happy for me and happy to be with me every step of the way.
The point is, they put their love and affection for me ahead of any abstract ideas about gender. I love them for that. And by the same token I'm not going to lose one second's sleep worrying about those folks who don't give a rat's ass about me and would rather be splitting hairs about who is or is not a sufficiently female woman to be allowed admission to the girls' club. I'm doing this for me, not for them ...
Now I remember why I quit susans the first time around, is this place cursed or something? ******* ******.
It's not cursed, its just real. And reality exists separate from ourselves, and though we are free to define the world as we wish, we have no power to compel others to accept that. And it's highly unlikely that the world is going to snap into a different frame of reference and all of a sudden throw down and create a national holiday for the wonder that is you. So you pay your money, and you take your chances. That's all there really is.
The future is here. You are it.
You are on your own.
Quote from: Muffin on March 07, 2010, 07:39:43 AM
Now I remember why I quit susans the first time around, is this place cursed or something? ******* ******.
What? Because I took a different line in a debate? I don't think there's been any personal abuse or sneering, which I certainly hate, too. Just a variety of opinions. Is that a problem? I certainly did not intend to flame or bitch ...
@Ketsy--> I very much agree with your stance. I want to add that I've always felt, and gender studies seems to agree even if that is a pseudo-science at best, that everybody's male and female sometimes. These roles are meant to be more fluid than society allows it to be. Most people seem to primarily fit into one gender category or another, but not one person can say that they are entirely masculine or entirely feminine. I love heavy metal, video games, Sly Stallone movies and I also love posing for the camera, bubble baths, and What Not to Wear. And at the end of the day, none of that is actually masculine or feminine except according to what society says.
You're totally right to point out that GID is an extraordinarily complicated issue, and I was going to point out before that people from all walks of life find themselves thrown into this life, and that means all possible kinds of motivation are possible.
And yeah... Carlita, enough people think we're wrong as it is. We don't need dissent among the ranks. That's what's killing heavy metal.
Quote from: Ketsy on March 07, 2010, 05:38:06 AM
Let's say you were born as you were, woman in a male body. Except you were abandoned at birth and somehow managed to survive on your own in the wild. If we accept on face value that as a 'woman' trapped on a 'male' body, you would still suffer some form of gender conflict. But how would you know you were a 'woman'? You would just know that *something* about the way you feel doesn't match with the physical aspect of your body. That these things are 'woman' and 'male' is secondary, you find out what those mean when you see other people performing their gender roles in society. And you say, yes I see how that woman acts, and that's how I act, so even though I have male physical parts, I identify as a woman because internally I feel like she does. But even this has more hidden assumptions - namely that the women you encounter are feminine women, and not let's say, butch lesbians who drive cargo trucks. If those were the only women I ever met, I'm not sure I would say I wanted to be a 'woman' because that idea wouldn't really match with my internal idea. But I'd still want to be me, in all the non-male ways I see in myself right now.
The problem with your seneriao is that it is restricted to women born in men's bodies.
What would happen to a man born in a man's body, or a woman born in a woman's body. How will their behaviour and attitudes develop?
There are certain behaviours that seem to be universal, among humans in all parts of the world. Many of these behaviours are alos observed in other primates and many in other non-primate animals.
But taking the other option, that behaviour is nurture, that might suggest that people become transgendered because of some aspect of their development.
That raises two questions, firstly, why do some people react to experiences by becoming transgendered?
This first is actually trite. The asnwers are rather obvious.
But the second is, is a behaviour wrong or unnatural, or even pathological, simply because it is developmental and deviates from a norm?
A young boy, raised in the US becomes obscessed with baseball. Not uncommon among American boys and perfectly acceptable.
That young boy is moved, permanently, to the UK, where baseball is a bit of an oddity, to be honest. Most young boys like him will be obscessed with football. (Soccer to the colonials). Or cricket. (Equally boring as baseball). The young American boy will be out of place. He will be socially awkward.
Is the young basball obscessed American boy now clinically ill?
Does he require treatment for baseball obscession?
Is being obscessed with baseball an illness, because of geography?
Quote from: tekla on March 07, 2010, 08:13:28 AM
... And it's highly unlikely that the world is going to snap into a different frame of reference and all of a sudden throw down and create a national holiday for the wonder that is you. ...
You are on your own.
This is my exact point, I never once told anyone to think differently. It's like some of you have been waiting for me to express an odd opinion so you can all jump on me and hate on me for it.
edited out bad language-Nicki
Quote from: Carlita on March 07, 2010, 06:58:09 AM
Personally, I'm disappointed that one transsexual finds another transsexual 'creepy' because they disagree with their definition of what it means to be transgender. I'd hope we wouldn't be stigmatizing one another like that.
Let's just be clear that I was talking only about hypothetical persons who may or may not be considered transgender. To be honest, I don't think anyone is creepy (not even serial killers or other 'deviants').
Quote from: spacial on March 07, 2010, 10:22:43 AM
The problem with your seneriao is that it is restricted to women born in men's bodies.
What would happen to a man born in a man's body, or a woman born in a woman's body. How will their behaviour and attitudes develop?
There are certain behaviours that seem to be universal, among humans in all parts of the world. Many of these behaviours are alos observed in other primates and many in other non-primate animals.
But taking the other option, that behaviour is nurture, that might suggest that people become transgendered because of some aspect of their development.
That raises two questions, firstly, why do some people react to experiences by becoming transgendered?
As far as the women being born into women's bodies, or men into men's bodies question, I think that's actually the best indicator of who is transgender/transsexual and who is a girly man or manly woman... this desire we seem to have to change something about our bodies. I don't think that desire is result of societal influences -- I think that's the part we are born with. We can view it as, "I'm a woman who was born in a man's body, so I want to change the male parts to female so I can be the real me", which seems to be the current view of many if not most TS people (or vice versa for FTM). But I think that *reasoning* IS a result of societal influences. All I personally know is that I was born XY, but I don't like the XY parts of my body and I feel profoundly more comfortable when I do things to make my body more feminine, such as getting rid of facial hair, or (for now) pretending I have boobs or trying to hide the bits between my legs. I do things like growing my hair long, or dressing in feminine clothes for two reasons: 1) I like them and 2) they accentuate the female body I'm trying to get to (for now by simulation, but soon more concretely with hormones).
So I don't think it's a nature vs nurture question. It's always both. I like some girly things because of the effects of society (like high-heeled shoes! love!), but part of it is nature, this body dysphoria.
And that's what I don't like about this idea of saying that you're only really a transsexual if the cause is nature and
therefore out of your control, but if the cause is somehow nurture, then it's obviously your fault so you're creepy. This is the view that many people who are pejudiced against us take. At first, most thought it was obviously somehow our fault, so we were always 'creepy'. Then someone came along with the idea in the first part, to say that it wasn't our fault, we were born this way (which I think is probably true), and so if we convince people that it's not our fault, then maybe they won't be prejudiced against us.
And I say **** that. Why do we have to justify ourselves? This is the way I am, and I don't give a damn if people decide to be prejudiced about it. I don't feel the need to justify it to other people. It's really not their business.
Quote from: spacial on March 07, 2010, 10:22:43 AM
But the second is, is a behaviour wrong or unnatural, or even pathological, simply because it is developmental and deviates from a norm?
That's a tricky question that has a lot of hidden assumptions in it. We're mostly brought up to believe in this idea that it's possible for someone to somehow be unnatural/pathological/deviant etc. But it's a relative term, defined by society, and has no intrinsic meaning in reality. Society may look at one of us and say we are unnatural because we do X. We say, from our perspective it's totally natural for us to do X. But then all of us will look at a serial killer and say it's unnatural to do X. But he or she may think serial killing is totally natural! Before anyone cringes about me comparing us to serial killers (probably too late), my only point is to highlight that natural/unnatural is entirely about perspective.
The second thing is that this pattern of identifying individuals as unnatural/deviant is a meaningful function of society. Society is a complicated system, and to work most efficiently, it requires that individuals conform to society. Anyone who deviates from 'normal' causes more work for the other people in society. They can either try to fix that person, or shun that person as deviant and exclude them from society. There is nothing in this mechanism that is inherently hateful towards the 'deviant' people. It's just about making society work. The reality though is that most of the time, 'deviant' people aren't entirely fixed or excluded, and over time the 'deviance' gets integrated into society itself.
You can see the process happening very visibly with homosexuality. At one point it was considered totally deviant and you could get locked in a mental hospital for it. Now it's practically a mainstay of pop culture. It's not fully integrated yet, but it's a process, and gay people are much less likely to be considered deviant than 30 years ago.
It's a bit trickier for transsexuality though, because I think most of us (but not all of us), don't really like the 'trans' part, and would be happier to get through transition and then mostly ignore the fact that anything has ever been different. Which I think is totally fine and probably want myself. But it does make the process of not being considered deviant by society a lot slower than it otherwise would be.
Quote from: Muffin on March 07, 2010, 11:24:44 AM
This is my exact point, I never once told anyone to think differently. It's like some of you have been waiting for me to express an odd opinion so you can all jump on me and hate on me for it. It's funny how it's only on this website that you get such crap like this.. you can all go f&$k yourself as far as I'm concerned I've had enough of this bull->-bleeped-<-.
*over it*.
I'm not saying anything like that, and I certainly don't hate you.
Topic locked,
I think enough has been said, we have heard both sides of the argument and things are just getting a bit tense here.
I think it was a good debate though. Well done for those that managed to keep it civil.