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Why I want to be a woman

Started by Jester, March 05, 2010, 01:13:25 PM

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Carlita

Quote from: Kay Henderson on March 06, 2010, 11:55:25 AM
I have to disagree with the "most people" part. 

At each step farther into public, I've been surprised and gratified to find acceptance from a wide range of both women and men.  They treat me simply as the person I present myself to be, and that's all I ever want from anyone.

Early in my journey, I expected and would have welcomed questions.  But  I've found that either it's not really that important to others or they're too polite to bring it up.

I'm with you on this, Kay. I've just started coming out to close friends, alerting them to the fact that there are going to be some changes round here -  ;) - and I've been incredibly touched by the kindness, understanding and love with which that news has been received. Women have been really supportive in a very warm and happy-for-me way, and also thrilled that I feel able to be who I truly am. Guys are ... well, they're guys. But they can be sweet, too. This is part of what one male friend wrote to me ...

I'm very relieved that you're reaching a conclusion on this issue and I'm even more pleased that [your wife] is standing by you. I will too and let me explain why. You're my friend. Not as a man or as a woman but as a human being - which transcends both. So even if the shape you inhabit changes, my affection for YOU remains immutable.
However, let me please stress: just because you become a bird doesn't mean that I always have to pay for lunch.
If that's clear then I see no obstacles to our continued friendship.
For what it's worth, I much prefer Bryn [an FTM we both know] as a man and other people I know who have changed genders have become much happier as a result.
One last thought: anyone (apart from your immediate family) who has a problem with what you do can ->-bleeped-<- right off. In other words, if they mind, they don't matter; if they matter, they don't mind.
I matter and I don't mind.


Now, that made me feel wonderful. The fact that he felt able to tease me a little about him not paying for lunch made me feel that he was comfortable with the whole thing and that I could be too. His certainty that there was no need to worry about people who have a problem with it gave me confidence that I am making the right decision.

And as to why I want to be a woman ... well ... I just do ... I just am ...
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Arch

Quote from: Muffin on March 06, 2010, 12:05:17 AM
I think it's very important to understand that GID or being that of the opposite sex is not a "want" like a few people have pointed out.

Muffin, not everyone feels this way.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Muffin

Quote from: Arch on March 06, 2010, 04:45:53 PM
Muffin, not everyone feels this way.

So are you saying that you know you're female deep down you just have a desire to be male for the experience, benefits or something else just as ridiculous? Because that really is the opposite to what I said.
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Jester

Last time I checked, Muffin, my plumbing was definitively male.  Therefore, "want" to be a woman is definitely a correct way to put it from an empiricist point of view.

Empiricism is when one takes into consideration physical evidence and purely rational thought based on experience.  So, the evidence is that I'm male, and experientially I'd say that I've been acting pretty male for my life thus far, and that others perceive this as well.  I *want* to be a woman despite all of this empirical evidence, and I feel, inside, that I am a woman.

But if we want to continue mincing words and using extraordinarily antagonistic and reactionary means of argumentation, then by all means.

Also, are you familiar with the concept of a "Straw Man Argument?"  It's when you take somebody's honestly held stance and oversimplify it on purpose so that you CAN make a reasonable attack on the newly castrated version of the argument.  Your views on the simplified argument may be correct, but it doesn't make your claim against the original argument any more valid.
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tekla

I don't much care if it's a want or a need.  Either is fine by me so long as its a moving up and not a moving out.  So that statements like: Because simply put it is a higher expression of myself. And when I was finally able to express that self, I came to love who I am. Now I can soar. seem to follow in the right direction, where statements to the effect that 'I didn't feel right one way' does not automatically equate to the 'other' being a correct choice.  If you want it, or need it, to make you a better person, that is a positive.  To say 'I wasn't a success' at A, does not mean that B is going to be any better, and that seems like moving out, not moving up.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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V M

I don't see myself as wanting to be a woman

I see myself as a woman with a birth defect that I would like to correct
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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tekla

That works also.  That way you are moving to, and not just moving away.  It's a matter of the goal being a positive or a negative.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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MasterAsh

Quote from: Jester on March 05, 2010, 09:03:06 PM
It's like a game that I was never told the rules to.

I love this statement.
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BunnyBee

Personally, I never wanted to be a woman, I just was one.  Life would have been so much easier had I just been a man.

Empirically that statement is true, btw.  Gender really has nothing to do with the plumbing.  Just because you can't see your brain or it's magical inner workings by looking in the mirror, doesn't make it any less real or relevant.

The idea of wanting to be a woman does not sit well with me, or ring true with my experience.
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Muffin

I don't want to discuss the ins and outs of what we consider ourselves to be or from what angle we like to take on it. My issues are with the way the public views us as a whole, we have two choices.
Express our situation in a way that makes sense in that we are born this way or..
Express our situation in a way that makes them see it as a life style choice.
I do consider it unfortunate that we more or less have to work around people's lack of ability to see things as they really are. And that we have to in a way 'dumb' things down and choose our words carefully so they can grasp the concepts and reality of our situations better.
Basically I just think it's best to avoid any wording that can be linked to 'life style choice', because for those that see it that way it is very damaging.. to us. And heresay opinions can spread like wild fire especially with the media.

I know what you mean when you say "Why I want to be a woman". But to say it to someone that doesn't know (putting yourself in someone else's shoes) you can see how it can be taken in a negative way.

I always make a point when telling people about me that it's not a life style choice and it was just the way I was born, I don't know..... maybe this approach has helped me have a 99% strike rate *shrugs*.
I'm sorry this has been blown out of proportion I should of explained my point better the first time, that's assuming it makes sense now? >_>
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Carlita

Quote from: Muffin on March 07, 2010, 02:57:26 AM
I don't want to discuss the ins and outs of what we consider ourselves to be or from what angle we like to take on it. My issues are with the way the public views us as a whole, we have two choices.
Express our situation in a way that makes sense in that we are born this way or..
Express our situation in a way that makes them see it as a life style choice.
I do consider it unfortunate that we more or less have to work around people's lack of ability to see things as they really are. And that we have to in a way 'dumb' things down and choose our words carefully so they can grasp the concepts and reality of our situations better.
Basically I just think it's best to avoid any wording that can be linked to 'life style choice', because for those that see it that way it is very damaging.. to us. And heresay opinions can spread like wild fire especially with the media.

I know what you mean when you say "Why I want to be a woman". But to say it to someone that doesn't know (putting yourself in someone else's shoes) you can see how it can be taken in a negative way.

I always make a point when telling people about me that it's not a life style choice and it was just the way I was born, I don't know..... maybe this approach has helped me have a 99% strike rate *shrugs*.
I'm sorry this has been blown out of proportion I should of explained my point better the first time, that's assuming it makes sense now? >_>

Actually, there's a third choice .. we allow one another to define ourselves in the way that feels truest to ourselves, and we quit making judgments about other people.

I can completely understand and the view that says, 'Right  now I am a man, because that is how my body is built and I have been socialized, but I long/want/need/whatever to be a woman,' ... AND ...I respect those who absolutely know in their souls that they are and always have been a woman.'

How can we expect tolerance from other people if we won't even show it to ourselves?

There is NO 'correct' way to be transsexual. There are just individual people trying  to make sense of themselves and their situations ...
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Muffin

All 'ways' can be filed under either of those two In My Opinion.
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placeholdername

I think Tekla and Carlita have stated what I was trying to say better than I did (was in a bit of a rush).

Muffin I understand your viewpoint, but I don't feel my personal situation is the same as yours, so I don't like the idea that we should all be telling the cis-people that we were born M/F and are just fixing a birth defect (or something along those lines).  You may feel that other people will be more understanding/accepting of you if this is what they believe, but at the same time it just enforces another box.

What if someone is born male, agrees that they were born male, and then at some point decides that they want to live the rest of their life as a woman?  Personally I don't see a damn thing wrong with that if they've thought it through and are sure about it.

I'm somewhere in the middle.  I don't know that I was 'born female', but I know that I grew up never fitting in as male, and I was and am drawn to things that society considers feminine (even if I mostly kept that secret).  Mostly I kept it bottled up so I never really *knew* I was female (I don't really know how someone can know that but that's a philosophical point).  But about 18 months ago I decided to stop bottling it up and see if the female thing really fit me or not.  And I find that it does, that I feel more in touch with myself the more I allow myself to embrace my feminine qualities and interests.  So I'm pursuing it.  So yes I 'want' to be female, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
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Muffin

Quote from: Ketsy on March 07, 2010, 03:30:34 AM...
What if someone is born male, agrees that they were born male, and then at some point decides that they want to live the rest of their life as a woman?  Personally I don't see a damn thing wrong with that if they've thought it through and are sure about it.
...

I think We've managed to boil this down enough to see our differing opinions, for me I do consider the above to be quite questionable.
Not to say my opinion is anyway more or less valid, it's just the way I view it. And if I was CIS then I could understand how I would feel weird about it, I'd see the person as someone like a spy, a fake or just plain creepy.
But again this is just yet another personal opinion.
Sure they can live their own life but some ways will draw more negative attention than others.
Maybe these 'life-style' choicer's shouldn't be lumped in the same boat. To avoid confusion, ha I'll have to dream on in regards to that!
I really get peeved when people assume that what I'm doing is a 'choice', it makes me feel gross. The only choice I ever made was between death and trying to be the real me.
I'm aware that my views on this whole subject are quite harsh. It's just the way I feel about it. :-/
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FairyGirl

#34
:)

(I really don't belong in this conversation, I'm going to polish my nails now)
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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placeholdername

@Muffin:
I don't want to sound like I'm trying to tell you that this is a choice for you.  I don't disagree with anything you feel about yourself.  More what I'm talking about is this -- why is it "creepy" for someone to want to change genders?  Why is gender this spooky mystical creepy thing that shouldn't be messed with?

Basically there's about 3 camps:

gender = genitals, don't mess with it (religious people mainly)
gender = internal, sometimes the external doesn't match, but otherwise don't mess with it (what it seems like you're saying)
gender =  internal/expression, do whatever you want (sort of where I stand)

I just don't see what good comes from telling other people what they should or should not think about how they understand their own sense of gender.
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Muffin

oooooh I see , yeah no... ok my point of view. To me gender is of the mind the state of being feminine or masculine and to me they are fixed in utero and can't be changed. Sex is of the body, relating to the secondary sexual characteristics between male and female and can (to a degree) be changed.
To me if a man with a male gender 'decides' to change 'his' body to be female then his gender/mind is still male, so to me it would be no different to having a crossdresser in the room. Who ..personally for me I view as a male (internally) but female (externally).
Do I find crossdressers creepy? Not entirely because I know they will go home and undress and accept that their core is male. But I do find a man who's outer skin has been changed to be female to be creepy yes. It's no different to wearing a mask, which is deceitful when the mask is 'fulltime'.
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spacial

I get the impression from Muffin's statement, that it is a matter of emphasis.

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placeholdername

I think you're holding on to some ideas that I'm not sure you're even aware of.  For example, there are countless accounts of women who would dress up as men, and play the entire male societal role, just so they could do some profession that they really wanted to do, but were denied since they were women.  Women who wanted to be actors, or musicians, or even soldiers, or countless other things.  They changed their gender presentation, and sex characteristics (visible anyway) to be male 24/7.  Is that creepy?  Why is it creepy for a man to do the exact same thing?  Because we can't figure out the motivation?  Easy to see why a woman would do it when they were oppressed.  So I think that sometimes we rationalize that it's okay for people to do this gender-crossing stuff when we can understand their motivations, but it's not okay when we can't understand their motivations.  But that has nothing to do with them and everything to with our pre-conceived notions of gender.

Let's say you were born as you were, woman in a male body.  Except you were abandoned at birth and somehow managed to survive on your own in the wild.  If we accept on face value that as a 'woman' trapped on a 'male' body, you would still suffer some form of gender conflict.  But how would you know you were a 'woman'?  You would just know that *something* about the way you feel doesn't match with the physical aspect of your body.  That these things are 'woman' and 'male' is secondary, you find out what those mean when you see other people performing their gender roles in society.  And you say, yes I see how that woman acts, and that's how I act, so even though I have male physical parts, I identify as a woman because internally I feel like she does.  But even this has more hidden assumptions - namely that the women you encounter are feminine women, and not let's say, butch lesbians who drive cargo trucks.  If those were the only women I ever met, I'm not sure I would say I wanted to be a 'woman' because that idea wouldn't really match with my internal idea.  But I'd still want to be me, in all the non-male ways I see in myself right now.

That kind of paradox is why I can't really get behind this idea that I was born a 'woman' but with a male body.  I was born me.  I've never really felt comfortable with the stereotypical male role, or with the more male body parts (in my case I have some pretty feminine aspects aside from genitals and face area).  The truth is that I love lots of really 'girly' things like dresses and makeup and fashion and the idea of motherhood/pregnancy, the list goes on.  But I also like 'manly' things like computer science, violent video games, and sex with women (imagined only so far).  But there are genetic women who like those 'manly' things, and genetic men who like those 'girly' things.  So it's all kind of nutty.  But transition feels right for me so far, so I'm going with it.
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Carlita

Personally, I'm disappointed that one transsexual finds another transsexual 'creepy' because they disagree with their definition of what it means to be transgender. I'd hope we wouldn't be stigmatizing one another like that. 

As for the argument that women will feel 'invaded' by all these fake, not-female-enough T-girls, I can only speak for my own experience which is that the girlfriends I've spoken to about transitioning take the view that they want me to be happy, and to be as true to myself as possible, and if that means transitioning, then they are happy for me and happy to be with me every step of the way.

The point is, they put their love and affection for me ahead of any abstract ideas about gender. I love them for that. And by the same token I'm not going to lose one second's sleep worrying about those folks who don't give a rat's ass about me and would rather be splitting hairs about who is or is not a sufficiently female woman to be allowed admission to the girls' club. I'm doing this for me, not for them ...
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