The CNN Special, "Her Name Is Steve" is on today, several times. We watched the first show which was on at 7CST. Once she came out the city council of Largo, FL voted her out. When she appealed several people came up to the podium and stated their opinions to the council. One tooth-challenged old geezer came up and read from a piece of paper he apparently prepared.
"We don't want abnormals" he said when talking about Stanton. This guy could barely read his own writing and had difficulty reading out loud what he had obviously scratched on a torn off piece of legal paper.
Yeah, that's who I want making human rights decisions for this country, toothless, illiterate and ignorant. You would have thought the survival of the fittest law would have weeded this guy out long ago. Guess he slipped through the cracks.
Another phobe, some slick looking minister/preacher type, said, "If Jesus were here today, he would fire Mr. Stanton!" Then he went on to say he knows a lot about what Jesus said. Maybe they were fishing buddies.
I'm no expert on what Jesus said but I do remember something about acceptance and love. This Falwell wannabee knew nothing about that kind of stuff.
Juliekins watched pretty much the whole show. I went down to the workshop and sliced and diced some more wood. I get a lot more satisfaction working on my jewelry chest than listening to "abnormals".
I watched it and after these comments, something that I heard some where went thru my mind. "The greatest sin is to claim to know the mind of God".
It is no wonder that she lost her job, Largo FL sounds like a very trans/homophobic place to live. With the counsel and the people who commented. And I know that is judgmental but they were the ones saying those thing.
And I wonder if the doctor that did her SRS is the one Flan is going to?
Quote from: Janet Lynn on March 13, 2010, 10:58:34 PM
And I wonder if the doctor that did her SRS is the one Flan is going to?
If only Dr. Reed had a full head of hair. :P
It's Dr. Meltzer (I remember the mustachio and the architecture of the building he works in)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2F5%2F5a%2FTobymeltzermd.jpg&hash=3667fccdcc7c65591afa8d9acbc472cc96129666)
Sorry about this.
You can prove that a god doesn't exist. You cannot prove that one, or several, do. Therefore knowing the mind of god is illiterate and against any kind of logic. (Removed personal attack. *whap*). Therefore people who preach or base their opinion on god are basing their opinions on myth and conjecture. I have no problems with people who wish to have 'faith' and hold hands and sing etc and undergo the rituals of their life. But that that is what it is; ritual and costumes.
I realize I am out of step for many people. I do not wish to be offensive. But these cretins are allowed to be offensive to me. They justify my lack of rights to a god (see above who doesn't exist) who in their belief allows them to dominate my social and private life. I'm abnormal: because I do not believe in fantasy, I do believe in love, I do believe in helping those who cannot help themselves. I have a total belief in humanity.
Sorry I've probably crossed boundaries that Mods should not. I have tried to be quiet but I am close to erupting. Susan,I apologize but I wish to post this.
In can be subject to the normal rules
Cindy
Susan: I removed one sentence that crossed the lines. The rest of it was perfectly fine.
Quoteread his own writing and had difficulty reading
some how I always thought illiterate meant unable to read or write
Quote from: CindyJames on March 14, 2010, 04:12:18 AM
Sorry about this.
You can prove that a god doesn't exist.
Cindy
How will you do that?
Cindy I hear and share your pain. <<<<HUGS>>>>
I too have been terribly hurt and offended by organaised religion on many occasions.
However I have to say that as you are undoubtedly a very good scientist I imagine you would agree that it is a fundamental axiom of science that proving a negative is actually just about impossible.
That's precisely why we get so many silly scares, because ordinary folks can't get it into their heads that when a scientist says they "can't rule something out," they don't mean "It's true but i'm not going to admit it!" They just mean that in science you can only prove things that you have directly observed, and as time progresses there is always the possibility that the only reason you have NOT observed something is that you weren't looking in the right place! So someone, at a later time, looking in another spot, may find the missing evidence.
That said I don't believe in the judgemental and cruel God that these folks preach either. Not because there is anything wrong with the concept of God per-se! But because their God is far too small, parochial and sadistic, and obviously fashioned in their own twisted and limited image.
Please don't let them get to you Girl - you are a bigger and better person than that!
Love and hugs
Jenny.
Quote from: CindyJames on March 14, 2010, 04:12:18 AMI do not wish to be offensive. But these cretins are allowed to be offensive to me.
And that's what they too often fail to see. Personally, I believe they are so absorbed in forcing their agenda on people that they can't see how wrong it is. I also believe they have an intense fear that they will lose what they have if they perpetuate anything except absolute rigidity.Quote from: Janet Lynn on March 13, 2010, 10:58:34 PM
I watched it and after these comments, something that I heard some where went thru my mind. "The greatest sin is to claim to know the mind of God".
I know many who read this will say I'm going to hell but we can only prove Jesus was a man, not God nor the son of God. So these people who proclaim to know what Jesus would do are doing nothing more than saying they know what some person who lived in the past would have done given similar circumstances.
But no matter how you look at it, there's a lot of these types of people out there. The followers follow blindly and are told not to question. The leaders (many of the most vocal and well known anyway) are sitting there getting rich. (If money is the root of all evil, why do they need so much of it?) As long as people live in fear of that which they do not know, we will have sheep out there looking for a shepard. And many of these shepards are nothing more than predators.Quote from: LordKAT on March 14, 2010, 04:51:44 AMsome how I always thought illiterate meant unable to read or write
I think you know what I meant.
QuoteI think you know what I meant.
Ye I think so.
There are people in the world who will use and manipulate anything to attract attention and power.
We have seen this in recent years with Islam. Most Muslims are throughly decent and honest people, but some are manipulating texts for their own ends.
This has also been a constant feature in the history of the west. It cause the reformation, when Popes began to sell indulgences.
The teachings of Jesus and Muhammad and others are quite clear. They don't justify any of the disgusting and evil behaviours we see in these politically motivated idiots such as Bush, Blair and the fundimentalists.
But the attemps by so called scientists, to claim that their science can prove subjective notions, however well meaning, are just sinking to the same level.
In another thread, a NASA scientist has done just this.
When you combine the apparent certainty of science with the notional certainties of belief, then you can only get Nazism.
I don't believe that that is what Cindy, Prof Dawkins or any other of these misguided scientists really want.
the real problem with religious kooks is that they interpret religious texts to suit their own hate and blame the deity or another outside entity (or the texts themselves) for their behavior.
as far as proving or disproving the existence of a deity, that's a zero sum game, as usually the best evidence either side has is faith, which leads to such banter as "yes he does", "no he doesn't", "you're going to hell", "you're stupid"... ect.
The bible says that we should study to show ourselves approved. In my nearly 40 years of salvation I'm still studying and learning. With all the negative vitriol against LGBT people I studied scripture with a new revelation. Being transgender myself I needed to know.
We have every right to live our lives in peace. Nowhere in scripture does it say that we are an abomination. If anyone's an abomination its those zealots who use the bible and religion to justify their prejudice. I wished I was in that meeting because I would turn the place out. I'm a Christian and I'm tired of people using religion and God to marginalized a group of people.
Gennee
:)
Maybe just once we could have a transsexual narrative of somebody who transitions early & not when they're 40, 50 or 60. ::)
Maybe just once we could have a transsexual narrative of somebody that wasn't a "cross-dresser" or a "transvestite" (Stanton's own words) before magically discovering one rainy Thursday that they were in fact transsexual.
Maybe just once we could have a transsexual narrative where actual medical professionals educate about transsexualism.
Maybe just once we could have a transsexual narrative where the words "transvestite" or "cross-dresser" aren't used instead of transsexual.
Maybe just once we could have a transsexual narrative where everybody in the room is considerably young & not middle aged people.
Maybe just once.
Quote from: CindyJames on March 14, 2010, 04:12:18 AM
Sorry about this.
You can prove that a god doesn't exist. You cannot prove that one, or several, do. Therefore knowing the mind of god is illiterate and against any kind of logic. (Removed personal attack. *whap*). Therefore people who preach or base their opinion on god are basing their opinions on myth and conjecture. I have no problems with people who wish to have 'faith' and hold hands and sing etc and undergo the rituals of their life. But that that is what it is; ritual and costumes.
I realize I am out of step for many people. I do not wish to be offensive. But these cretins are allowed to be offensive to me. They justify my lack of rights to a god (see above who doesn't exist) who in their belief allows them to dominate my social and private life. I'm abnormal: because I do not believe in fantasy, I do believe in love, I do believe in helping those who cannot help themselves. I have a total belief in humanity.
Sorry I've probably crossed boundaries that Mods should not. I have tried to be quiet but I am close to erupting. Susan,I apologize but I wish to post this.
In can be subject to the normal rules
Cindy
Susan: I removed one sentence that crossed the lines. The rest of it was perfectly fine.
It is very difficult to live in a xtian world. I am an atheist, myself. It hit me like a ton of bricks one day. Nothing in the bible made sense in the real world. There is just too much physical evidence there. And the incredibly imperfect things that happened in the bible. Incest, rape (and being forced to marry your attacker), killing of children for talking back, angry god, jealous god. On and on and on. And we are being controlled by this nonsense. Sorry, I get a little worked up sometimes.
hugs to everyone no matter what!
I use to think like that.
Then I realised that most of the Old Testament is invalid for Christians.
After, evenrthing made perfect sense.
I have just gone through the New Testament looking up direct quotes by Jesus, which basically covers Matthew, Mark, Luke and John' Gospels.
I really couldn't find any direct references to Transsexuality anywhere, or homosexuality either. There were however lots of references to hypocritical religious leaders.
Yeah I saw what he said. As a Christian this upset me very badly. He may be from some tradition that teaches that, but he did not get it either from scripture or from the example of the life of Jesus. I truly believe Jesus wept to hear such filth being proclaimed in his name.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
"Beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves."
I've long contended that those preachers/ministers/priests/etc who discourage acceptance and preach religious superiority are the wolves in sheep's clothing.
They should have added beware of the silver tongue. >:-)
You're right, Julie. There's a lot of 'cultural Christianity' out there. If anyone is not like them or don't believe the way that they do, they say that you're wrong. These people drive others from the church and Jesus by their actions.
Gennee
:)
Just for the record, no credible atheist intellectual believes that the nonexistence of God(s) can be proven. Nobody - not even Richard Dawkins. ;D
Quote from: justmeinoz on March 18, 2010, 07:40:58 AM
I have just gone through the New Testament looking up direct quotes by Jesus, which basically covers Matthew, Mark, Luke and John' Gospels.
I really couldn't find any direct references to Transsexuality anywhere, or homosexuality either. There were however lots of references to hypocritical religious leaders.
Yep.
The only reference to anything sexual is the prohibition on adultry. Which if you think about it, is pretty difficult to argue with.
The main reason I find Jesus' teaching so accommonidating and natural is they make such perfect sense.
No rituals, no funny hats, just basic consideration of others.
There are, however, references to eunuchs throughout the Bible, and as far as I know they're always positive - eunuchs were considered rather holy, I believe. So gender/sex-variant people are in the Bible - just not transsexuals per se.
Yes, and remember than Philip was sent specifically to the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. God wanted to make SURE that he knew the gospel.
"For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it]."
Matthew 19:12
That was the primary verse I was thinking of.
Ya'll know as soon as you quit sounding like you believe this stuff is gospel, then the sooner then nuts who do lose what power they have?
Quote from: tekla on March 18, 2010, 09:54:11 PM
Ya'll know as soon as you quit sounding like you believe this stuff is gospel, then the sooner then nuts who do lose what power they have?
It's not about believing, it's about taking what they believe and using it against them.
Quote from: Julie Marie on March 18, 2010, 11:06:56 PM
It's not about believing, it's about taking what they believe and using it against them.
Yep.
The thing with religo-loonies is they are selective. Lord Robert Winston (who is Jewish) was asked to leave a radio station in the US when he asked a fundamentalist if he was circumcised, because that is a requirement in Genesis. It is covered in his TV show and book on tha Abrahamic religions. It was also very funny!
Quote from: tekla on March 18, 2010, 09:54:11 PM
Ya'll know as soon as you quit sounding like you believe this stuff is gospel, then the sooner then nuts who do lose what power they have?
It would be interesting if you could get over yourself for a second and read what is being talked about.
Quote from: justmeinoz on March 19, 2010, 06:27:46 AM
The thing with religo-loonies is they are selective. Lord Robert Winston (who is Jewish) was asked to leave a radio station in the US when he asked a fundamentalist if he was circumcised, because that is a requirement in Genesis. It is covered in his TV show and book on tha Abrahamic religions. It was also very funny!
You know what would be great? We should start a huge pro-adulterer-stoning protest movement, and go around accusing the fundies of being heathens and unfaithful to God because they don't throw rocks at adulterers.
And rape victims who don't screem.
Deuteronomy Ch 22. v 23 and 24
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on March 19, 2010, 11:07:31 AM
You know what would be great? We should start a huge pro-adulterer-stoning protest movement, and go around accusing the fundies of being heathens and unfaithful to God because they don't throw rocks at adulterers.
I like how you think. Most of the christian men shave, that is an abomination to the lord. (its in there...trust me.)
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on March 19, 2010, 11:07:31 AM
You know what would be great? We should start a huge pro-adulterer-stoning protest movement, and go around accusing the fundies of being heathens and unfaithful to God because they don't throw rocks at adulterers.
You left out those kids who talk back to their parents.
Don't forget to cast the malformed babies out of the city gates.
Also, don't a lot of these people wear mixed fibers? It is an abomination unto the LORD their God. :laugh:
Quote from: PanoramaIsland on March 19, 2010, 12:21:52 PM
Also, don't a lot of these people wear mixed fibers? It is an abomination unto the LORD their God. :laugh:
And don't forget shellfish! God HATES shellfish! And we all know that those heathen trans people all hang out a Red Lobster! That's where they have their Agenda meetings!
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/ (http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/)
-Sandy
God doesn't hate shrimp.
The OT containes a lot of obscure and often weird rules and regulations because it was essentially a record of events that occured over a long period.
Most Jews would find these as laughable as anyone else. But the fundies select those which suit their purpose then claim these are divine regulations.
Since few of these people or those stupid enough to listen to them, can read the notions recited over.
Basically the same as the so called Islamic fundies. They take obscure passages from obscure Islamic texts and claim these justify whatever. Yet almost ever Islamic scholar, (Senior Islamic clerics), will say that there are numerous reasons, in recognised Islamic law, to demonstrate that suicide bombing and such is utterly illegal. It is illegal to do anything that you know will result in your death.
Muslims have learnt to ignore their fundies. Presumably, we haven't
Quote from: Laura91 on March 19, 2010, 01:02:45 PM
So now god hates shrimp??? What the hell is wrong with these people?? Is there anything that these freaks don't hate?
You do know that's a joke site...
The biblical reference is correct, but the group is a joke.
-Sandy
Quote from: Sandy on March 19, 2010, 12:39:41 PM
And we all know that those heathen trans people all hang out a Red Lobster! That's where they have their Agenda meetings!
mmm lobster
(so when it the next meeting again?)
Quote from: FlanHusky on March 19, 2010, 01:14:08 PM
mmm lobster
(so when it the next meeting again?)
I think it's on the same day as the lobster bisque is on special.
-Sandy
If I may suggest, the irrational ones are those that pay any attention.
Sadly, while most people will claim to know what the Bible says, few have ever read it. This is evideced by the numbers who believe such nonsense.
When soldiers were lined up, just before being sent to the front, in WW1, priests and clergy from all denominations blessed their guns!
Those that have read the Gospels will know how utterly preposterus this was.
Odd. After telling me to get over myself, you come around to say (in a whole lot more words) just what I said. If you don't believe, then these people have no power. We all just need, as is being done in a lot of places, and in a lot of ways, right now - that we don't believe, and it's high time that those who do, lose what power they have.
Oh, get over yourselves, you two. Sigh. ::)
Yeah, you're right.
My comment was directed at a different point but it was arrogant.
I apologise tekla. I shouldn't have said that.
Well, I think most all here can agree a very effective method of combating and even neutralizing the phobes is by listening to what they say, finding contradictions in their evidence sources and presenting it to them in a very matter of fact way. It may be more satisfying to tell them they are kooks but it will just fall on deaf ears.
That guy who made the "abnormals" comment looked like it would take a lot of deprogramming to shake him of his beliefs. Some people you just have to leave behind. But there are people who aren't quite so closed minded and they are the ones we should focus on and engage in intelligent conversation.
"Please explain to me the foundation of your beliefs. I want to understand." :icon_yes:
Then we can identify the weaknesses in their defense. :icon_lemon:
Quote from: Julie Marie on March 20, 2010, 09:24:06 AM
But there are people who aren't quite so closed minded and they are the ones we should focus on and engage in intelligent conversation.
"Please explain to me the foundation of your beliefs. I want to understand."
Well honestly I find few on either side who are open to this kind of dialogue. Should it be done? Absolutely. Listening to each other is the way to form a relationship that can lead to change. It takes hard work. Understanding will not come by mud slinging or by relegating others to the realm of stupidity. Can it be accomplished? Sure it can. Do people on either side really want to? I have my doubts.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
What really gets me is how christians pick and choose what they want from the bible. I want to know why it is okay to pick and choose from the bible. Some pick just the good (most do, in fact). If you believe in the word of god then you MUST acknowledge things like:
Stoning a child to death for talking back
Forcing a woman who was raped to marry her attacker
Own slaves
Discuss incest with your children
God was an angry jealous bloodthirsty killer and not just 'god is love'.
Kill Homosexuals
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
Kill Followers of Other Religions
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
Incest was rampant in my family amongst the children. We could have ussed a talk about incest as kids....
Quote from: Dana Lane on March 20, 2010, 11:06:36 AM
If you believe in the word of god then you MUST acknowledge things like:
Stoning a child to death for talking back
Forcing a woman who was raped to marry her attacker
Own slaves
Discuss incest with your children
God was an angry jealous bloodthirsty killer and not just 'god is love'.
Kill Homosexuals
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
Kill Followers of Other Religions
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
Here is a good example of the unhelpful types of comments I see here. This is patently untrue. And there are perfectly valid reasons why it is not true. Perhaps in another discussion we could talk about it if interested. But instead of telling someone what she or he MUST believe (which fundamentalists are also fond of doing) why not ask good questions? For instance, why not ASK questions such as:
- Why do you not believe in killing those who work on the sabbath or who are married and not virgins?
- What do you believe the Bible teaches about slavery?
- How do you make decisions about the relevance of various scripture passages in today's culture?
Maybe you get the idea. I just don't know. It is so much fun to demonize all of us who are Christians and put these kinds of words in our mouths. But if you do that, don't ever expect things to change, for you are as guilty as the "other" side when they say reprehensible and untrue things about the trans community.
But I guess the higher way takes work. It takes courage and fairness. It means avoiding the easy characterizations in favor of understanding.
Please understand that I totally respect and support your right to believe or not believe whatever you please. I would never tell someone what they MUST believe. All I hope is that you return the favor by being a person who shows respect to the dignity of others. That means not putting words in others' mouths, and it means if you care enough to write about, please care enough to understand it.
Peace,
Kristi
- What do you believe the Bible teaches about slavery?
I believe, in fact I know, that the Bible tells you and me that slavery is A-OK. There are some limits to it, some rule to be abided by, but it's OK to own human beings according to both the old and the new testaments. The Bible was the number one justification for slavery in the antebellum South.
Quote from: Kristi on March 20, 2010, 08:15:02 PM
Here is a good example of the unhelpful types of comments I see here. This is patently untrue. And there are perfectly valid reasons why it is not true. Perhaps in another discussion we could talk about it if interested. But instead of telling someone what she or he MUST believe (which fundamentalists are also fond of doing) why not ask good questions? For instance, why not ASK questions such as:
- Why do you not believe in killing those who work on the sabbath or who are married and not virgins?
- What do you believe the Bible teaches about slavery?
- How do you make decisions about the relevance of various scripture passages in today's culture?
Maybe you get the idea. I just don't know. It is so much fun to demonize all of us who are Christians and put these kinds of words in our mouths. But if you do that, don't ever expect things to change, for you are as guilty as the "other" side when they say reprehensible and untrue things about the trans community.
But I guess the higher way takes work. It takes courage and fairness. It means avoiding the easy characterizations in favor of understanding.
Please understand that I totally respect and support your right to believe or not believe whatever you please. I would never tell someone what they MUST believe. All I hope is that you return the favor by being a person who shows respect to the dignity of others. That means not putting words in others' mouths, and it means if you care enough to write about, please care enough to understand it.
Peace,
Kristi
This is the core of what makes today's christian. They pick and choose what makes them feel good or that they can use against someone to cast them as a sinner. If these are laws put forth by god why are people able to pick and choose which ones?
Quote from: Dana Lane on March 21, 2010, 05:03:32 AM
This is the core of what makes today's christian. They pick and choose what makes them feel good or that they can use against someone to cast them as a sinner. If these are laws put forth by god why are people able to pick and choose which ones?
Sadly, even the way you phrase your comment hows how very little you know about the Bible or Christians. Is your question genuine, or is it rhetorical?
Quote from: Kristi on March 21, 2010, 06:26:14 AM
Sadly, even the way you phrase your comment hows how very little you know about the Bible or Christians. Is your question genuine, or is it rhetorical?
The question is a question. Why is it okay to pick and choose? Picking and choosing is what shows the word of god to be insignificant. Otherwise all his words would be followed. Most christians do not actually read the bible and if they do they turn a blind eye to the horrific atrocities in it and just pick out the good parts. Either it is the word of god or it is not.
Post Merge: March 21, 2010, 06:38:52 AM
Quote from: Kristi on March 21, 2010, 06:26:14 AM
Sadly, even the way you phrase your comment hows how very little you know about the Bible or Christians. Is your question genuine, or is it rhetorical?
and btw, reading the bible and listening to it on cassette is how I became an atheist. So I have read more of the bible than a lot of others have.
I am with Dana on this one.
I was raised to be an Elder in my church. I have spent literaly years in the bible and know what I figured out?
The christians are violating the word of god on a daily bassis. Christ said he came not to dicount the prophacy but to deliver it. (paraphrased!) Nowhere in thew new testament did christ say people no longer needed to follow Levitical laws.
Christians shave and they do not kill unruley children and when they wage war they are suposed to commit genocide....All of these are downright orders from god that go ignored by modern christendom.
I find it interesting that a thread titled "We don't want abnormals" has focused so strongly on the second half of my original post - using religious beliefs to condemn people. But I suppose it's possible the man who made the abnormals comment did so because of his religious beliefs.
As for me, the whole argument about what the bible says and what it means is meaningless. I'm a very literal person, I've read enough of the bible to know it's not a good source for religious guidance; too many contradictions, too much need for interpretation, too many negative messages, too much focusing on suffering. To me, the bible is nothing more than a history book, based on the accounts of many people over hundreds of years. It has a lot of hearsay in it. So the entire discussion about what the bible says and what it means has no effect on my personal beliefs or how I live my life. I use it only to discuss the prejudice and discrimination and the passing of judgment other people justify by quoting it.
It's easy to live a good life. All you have to do is be kind.
What bothers me about bible thumpers is they take things out of context and make it sound like god came down from the heavens and told them personally. If the same person say Quasar from the planet Neutron told them something, we'd consider them a kook. (Maybe that's why many of the fervent bible thumpers are called kooks.) But these people justify their intolerance, their prejudice, their hatred and their ignorance by reaching for "the good book" and finding something in it and quoting it. And they may actually believe they are doing good, although I believe deep in their heart they know better.
The man called Jesus Christ, according to those who knew him, or claimed to know him, seemed to have lead a pretty good life. He knew how to be kind to people. He knew acceptance was better than rejection. It seems he had a very good heart.
But sadly, we will never know his thoughts. To the best of my knowledge, nothing he may have written has survived. All accounts of him and his life are from the eyes of others and that's not the best way to get to know someone. I would love to read things he had written.
Still, most of us don't need Christ or Buddha or some sort of messiah to know the difference between right and wrong. We know it from within, in our hearts. Maybe that's where God really lives, within each of us. That is a lot easier for me to accept than reaching for an ancient book and using that for the foundation of how I live my life.
But that's just me.
I thought the point of this topic was about Susan Stanton. However, if Julie wants to discuss this here I guess it is OK. What I don't want to do here is to get into a Bible verse battle. Another time perhaps, but we can start another topic for that. What I will do is give you a very brief interpretive framework.
It may surprise you to know that there are two parts to the Christian Bible, an Old and a New Testament. Each is composed of various books by different authors. The Old Testament is the scripture that we Christians share with the Jews, originally written in Hebrew. The New Testament was written in Greek and contains the scriptures which teach about Jesus.
So what is the relationship between the Old and the New? Very simple. According to the New Testament, the Old Testament was fulfilled in life and ministry of Jesus. Their value to us today is in their symbolism, as the teach us what was made clearer in the New Testament. In the Old Testament we were made righteous by the sacrificial system, dietary laws, and the keeping of certain rituals. However, all of those things having now been fulfilled, under the New Testament, we are made righteous in a new way, by the sacrifice of Christ. All of the Old was made perfect in the New when Jesus voluntarily became our sacrifice.
All of this means that for us, while there may be lessons to be learned by the Old Testament, its code of conduct, its sacrificial system, its dietary laws, and its rituals are no longer binding on Christians. Rather, we have a new guide, the New Testament, especially the life and example of Jesus. Put another way, what the Old Testament taught in an incomplete way, we see fleshed out in the life and ministry of Jesus.
Those who seem to pick various Old Testament laws and saddle Christians with them show that they do not understand this very basic tenet of Christianity. I am appalled both by the individual who stood and made that comment on behalf of Christianity, as well as some of the comments here by some who claim to be biblical experts while making such basic errors in interpretation.
Obviously this is a rather deep subject and if you wish to discuss it further I will start a new topic where we can do so. The early church, as recorded in the New Testament, struggled with this issue as well. But the principles they developed are well recorded and are the basis for what we believe in the area.
Peace,
Kristi
Some religious leaders are highly educated; others are obviously not. However, very, very few religious people seem to make any serious independent attempt at understanding theology, or even just acquiring a comprehensive knowledge of their holy texts.Thus, I'm always skeptical when ordinary people claim to base their beliefs, or even their entire lives, on long, complicated, ancient and difficult to translate holy books. Religion is more of a cultural practice than it is a mass of people who have agreed to each make a diligent attempt to understand and follow a holy book. Understandings tend to be heavily shaped by cultural memetics and assumptions, to the point of being able to directly contradict the most obvious interpretations of a text in favor of seemingly contradictory and obscure meanings.
Yes, perhaps a new thread should be formed.
Quote from: Kristi on March 21, 2010, 10:04:49 PM
I thought the point of this topic was about Susan Stanton. However, if Julie wants to discuss this here I guess it is OK. What I don't want to do here is to get into a Bible verse battle. Another time perhaps, but we can start another topic for that. What I will do is give you a very brief interpretive framework.
It may surprise you to know that there are two parts to the Christian Bible, an Old and a New Testament. Each is composed of various books by different authors. The Old Testament is the scripture that we Christians share with the Jews, originally written in Hebrew. The New Testament was written in Greek and contains the scriptures which teach about Jesus.
So what is the relationship between the Old and the New? Very simple. According to the New Testament, the Old Testament was fulfilled in life and ministry of Jesus. Their value to us today is in their symbolism, as the teach us what was made clearer in the New Testament. In the Old Testament we were made righteous by the sacrificial system, dietary laws, and the keeping of certain rituals. However, all of those things having now been fulfilled, under the New Testament, we are made righteous in a new way, by the sacrifice of Christ. All of the Old was made perfect in the New when Jesus voluntarily became our sacrifice.
All of this means that for us, while there may be lessons to be learned by the Old Testament, its code of conduct, its sacrificial system, its dietary laws, and its rituals are no longer binding on Christians. Rather, we have a new guide, the New Testament, especially the life and example of Jesus. Put another way, what the Old Testament taught in an incomplete way, we see fleshed out in the life and ministry of Jesus.
Those who seem to pick various Old Testament laws and saddle Christians with them show that they do not understand this very basic tenet of Christianity. I am appalled both by the individual who stood and made that comment on behalf of Christianity, as well as some of the comments here by some who claim to be biblical experts while making such basic errors in interpretation.
Obviously this is a rather deep subject and if you wish to discuss it further I will start a new topic where we can do so. The early church, as recorded in the New Testament, struggled with this issue as well. But the principles they developed are well recorded and are the basis for what we believe in the area.
Peace,
Kristi
None of this changes who god is and was. Of course over time the original version of the bible would be too hard to swallow so there was no choice but to change it. Humans wrote the bible, humans voted on what went into the bible or stayed out of the bible.
You were 'offended' by what I said and what I said came right out of the bible. Let me ask you something. Me being an atheist how offended do you think I am on a daily basis having to live in a christian world?
And everything I said still stands. If you believe the bible is the word of god then you have to accept all of it and not just the glittery make me feel good stuff.
I wrote my comment when I was very angry and had been cruelly insulted by religous cretins a short time before.
I do not wish to place my belief or rather lack of them above anyone elses belief. That would be arrogant. I have sat in Intensive Care Units and listened to the prayers that a family pours over a loved one. I would never desire to remove that comfort.
I had a friend whose 15 year old son was killed in a car crash, she was and is a Mormon. I religion that I regard as very strange. It gave her comfort. What type of human would I be to remove that?
I do not believe in fairies, ghosts, UFO's, little green men, vampires, and a host of strange and non-provable events. But it is and was wrong of me to criticise those who get comfort from such beliefs. After all I'm going to society and telling it that I am female, many do not believe me. Does that make my statement or belief false?
"We do not want abnormals" Julie kins pointed out that many of us jumped on the religous aspect. I have been think of the comment again. The comment is not a religous abomination, it is firmly anti-human. Through out history there have been evil groups who have decided they are 'normal' and the rest are not. In the USA the racial injustice is obvious, the hate between taliban christian and others is obvious, Klu Klux Klan, people who are willing to murder Doctors who perform abortion, so that they can save lives >:(.
In my country it is very much the same. The intolerance and down right passive genocide of out indigenous people.
In Nazi germany, not only were the Jews picked for extermination but anyone who did not fill the Aryan ideal was also for selection.
And of course there are so many examples from every country and culture.
Many people do not want to have abnormals - people who are not like them.
Try pushing a wheelchair with an obviously disabled person in it. At best you will be ignored, usually you are not even seen, or recieve the 'get out of my way and why isn't it in a home somewhere' attitude. Yes. How many of us can look in the mirror and be true to the belief that many correspondents are suggesting:
"I will accept the abnormal"
Fine. Demonstrate it in your life. Demonstrate it at all times.
I am abnormal. I want to be accepted in life and not just on a board of people who have the same 'problem'.
BTW I'm now just finishing my first week on E and feeling weird in the brain.
:embarrassed: Cindy
Quote from: Dana Lane on March 22, 2010, 02:57:40 AM
You were 'offended' by what I said and what I said came right out of the bible. Let me ask you something. Me being an atheist how offended do you think I am on a daily basis having to live in a christian world?
And everything I said still stands. If you believe the bible is the word of god then you have to accept all of it and not just the glittery make me feel good stuff.
First, you do not live in a Christian world. Far from it. Second, I am not offended by you, as I firmly support your right to believe or not, as you choose. Why do you have such a hard time allowing me the same freedom?
I have never believed that God has changed and never said so. What has changed is our understanding. As time has progressed, our understanding has become clearer and clearer. Most people seem fine with the idea that science unfolded this way, but scoff that religious thought could have. This particular doctrine is called "progressive revelation" and you can look it up if you are interested.
What does offend me, as I said, is when someone goes against one of the most basic tenets of Christian interpretation (which I outlined) and still claims to be knowledgeable. I, for one, refuse to own the results of bigotry or intellectual laziness. I have little respect for anyone who checks her or his brain at the doorway of religious discussion. Yes, openness and education takes hard work. It is not popular, here or elsewhere. Hatred is always the easy path, as Cindy pointed out. Hold your views all you want, just be honest about claiming to know things about which you clearly know little. And please refrain from telling anyone what she or he must believe. You do not have this right, and never will.
Peace,
Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on March 22, 2010, 07:26:16 AM
First, you do not live in a Christian world. Far from it. Second, I am not offended by you, as I firmly support your right to believe or not, as you choose. Why do you have such a hard time allowing me the same freedom?
I have never believed that God has changed and never said so. What has changed is our understanding. As time has progressed, our understanding has become clearer and clearer. Most people seem fine with the idea that science unfolded this way, but scoff that religious thought could have. This particular doctrine is called "progressive revelation" and you can look it up if you are interested.
What does offend me, as I said, is when someone goes against one of the most basic tenets of Christian interpretation (which I outlined) and still claims to be knowledgeable. I, for one, refuse to own the results of bigotry or intellectual laziness. I have little respect for anyone who checks her or his brain at the doorway of religious discussion. Yes, openness and education takes hard work. It is not popular, here or elsewhere. Hatred is always the easy path, as Cindy pointed out. Hold your views all you want, just be honest about claiming to know things about which you clearly know little. And please refrain from telling anyone what she or he must believe. You do not have this right, and never will.
Peace,
Kristi
I can't tell if you just called me stupid, a bigot or a lazy intellectual or all three. First of all I had already told you that I found atheism through the bible. Just because I don't believe your interpretation does not make me lazy. I did the research I needed. I find it hard to believe that the truth is so hard to see in it. There is a HUGE disconnect between the bible and what we can actually see with our own eyes.
Quote
" I have little respect for anyone who checks her or his brain at the doorway of religious discussion."
I will just close my side of this discussion because this is ridiculous. Sorry. Have the last word. I am done.
Quote from: Dana Lane on March 22, 2010, 08:18:52 AM
I will just close my side of this discussion because this is ridiculous. Sorry. Have the last word. I am done.
Sad. The only part of my comment directed specifically at you was the last sentence. You twice said what I have to believe. I have never done that to anyone and never will.
The rest was directed primarily at the individual in the report, whom I said at the outset I disagreed with. You said you really wanted to know why, so I answered. I guess your question was not a question after all.
Peace,
Kristi
QuoteI thought the point of this topic was about Susan Stanton.
Actually, its is about a man who called trans people abnormal and a minister who claimed to know the thoughts of Jesus and said Jesus would fire Susan Stanton if he were here today. So it is very much about religious beliefs and how they influence people and how those people validate their prejudice and hatred, often by quoting the bible.
An intelligent discussion can easily be had about religious beliefs and how they affect our lives provided no one takes what another says personally. This is not about which beliefs are right, only about how certain beliefs negatively affect those who live in contrast to those beliefs.
In contrary to the Principles of Democracy (http://www.america.gov/st/democracy-english/2008/May/20080609194934eaifas0.5346796.html), the U.S. is a country where majority rules.
According to the Pew Forum On Religion and Public Life, 78% of people in the U.S. identify as christian. (See the chart below.) While we may not live in a christian world, those in the U.S. definitely live in a christian country. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freligions.pewforum.org%2Fimg%2Fmajor_religious_traditions.gif&hash=8f5922e45a74fcbfc94beb98493dc1ac691f035b)
We know the RCC and the LDS are anti-LGBT. They have made that clear. And it's safe to assume that sentiment trickles into other people's beliefs to some degree or another. Trans people experience discrimination to a very high degree. Susan Stanton lost her job because she was trans and some minister used Jesus to validate that firing. It happens all the time. In this case, it happened on film.
If the LGBT Community, especially the T, expects to enjoy the same rights and privileges as the rest of the country, we need to educate and the people we will most likely be educating will be christians. The most vocal in their anti-LGBT sentiment are christians and their organizations donate to and fund almost every anti-LGBT campaign. This is fact.
When I watched the Largo, FL city council hold hearings regarding Susan Stanton's ability to perform a job she did well for 14 years, prior to announcing she was trans, I saw the citizens speak at the podium about their feelings. No one questioned whether the man, Steven Stanton, who performed that job previously, was fit. Most people talked about the sudden change surrounding her announcement.
There was a few who stated her gender identity should not influence the council's decision and odds are most of them are christian. But there was also many who stated she was unfit to do the job and should be fired and odds are most of them are christian. The two that stood out the most in my mind were the old man ("abnormal") and the minister. They were the most adamant in their anti-trans sentiment.
The council then voted and Stanton was fired. I know the feeling and many trans people I know who came out at work know that too. How someone lives their life is unimportant to me unless it affects my life. When a majority perpetuates a negative stigma, passes laws that hurt me or fails to pass laws that would prevent me from being hurt and in general hampers my ability to live a life the same as they have, then I have a problem. The Constitution gives me the right to pursue happiness. No citizen or group of citizens should impede my way or the way of any other citizen.
I fully understand that the self-identifying christians who hamper the ability of law abiding, capable and hard working citizens of this country just because of their religious beliefs does not constitute 100% of all christians but the percent it does is substantial.
The Jesus Christ I learned about was loving, accepting, helpful and respectful of all of God's creations. The so-called christians I have a problem with do not follow what I understand his teachings were. That minister who spoke at Stanton's "tribunal" does not follow the teachings of Christ, at least he didn't when he spoke about Stanton. And he, and others like him, were largely in part the reason why she was fired. That's a problem.
My issue with the minister at the hearings he said Jesus wanted Stanton terminated. The way he said it I did not hear fire Stanton, I was hearing kill Stanton.
FWIW, some of the comments in question can be seen here:
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2009/04/23/cnn.name.steven.cnn.html (http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2009/04/23/cnn.name.steven.cnn.html)
I am still incensed that these things would be said and done, even implicitly, in the name of Christ. Perhaps that is one thing on which we might all be able to agree.
Peace,
Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on March 22, 2010, 10:01:13 AM
FWIW, some of the comments in question can be seen here:
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2009/04/23/cnn.name.steven.cnn.html (http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2009/04/23/cnn.name.steven.cnn.html)
Oh yeah, I forgot about the woman who said, "Fire him or give him more testosterone and let's move on."
Fun gal! :icon_drunk:
I think most of this can be summed up in two words. It's Florida.
Florida, making California look sane for decades upon decades now.