I haven't been on here for a while because my computer took a serious crash and wasn't able to come on.
Anyhow as I'm continuing to do my research about FTM transition and the cost.... it just totally blew me apart of ever transitioning into the man that I'm suppose to be. It had lead me into a great deal of depression and thought of just quitting and to consider myself as a crazy person with a gender disorder, like the world of psychiatry would classified us as.
I am having a hard time paying to keep a roof over my head (the loan modification that Obama signed doesn't seem to be working very much) and to provide food for I , my father and my animals so honestly theirs no way that I can afford T and couldn't even start saving if I wanted to. I know well enough that my insurance company, Medicare, would never agree to pay for T.
I don't mean to sound religious and I am sorry if I offend anyone but the god that everybody was telling me about back when I was a christian was all mighty and powerful and couldn't do no wrong... I found myself strongly disagreeing with these people as I grew older and wiser. The way I see if is if God was perfect then why are we paying for his mistakes? If anything god should be getting the bill for all of this that he has caused us. I had denounced myself as a Christan and went to Agnostic atheism.
Agnostic atheism? I thought there was only one type of atheist.
Wish I could help you, but I can't. Absolutely certain Medicare won't help you?
Who says it's a mistake?
Quote from: SilverFang on March 17, 2010, 10:19:02 PM
Agnostic atheism? I thought there was only one type of atheist.
There are two types, agnostic atheists (weak atheists) and gnostic atheists (strong atheists). I'm an agnostic atheist.
Quote from: Nathan. on March 18, 2010, 06:19:43 AM
There are two types, agnostic atheists (weak atheists) and gnostic atheists (strong atheists). I'm an agnostic atheist.
Atheists simply claim there are no deities, and that's it.
Agnostics doubt the claims of deities and also doubt the claims that there are no deities.
It conflicts.
Dude...
I became homeless in December. Lost my job. I started transitioning all over again while living in a house with no furniture, no nothing except food from food stamps. Then I started performing at my local gay bar. I walk there pretty much every night and perform, hoping to become a regular there. With the tips I get (10 bucks or so for one number if there's a decent tipping crowd) I managed to buy the Rogaine for my face, deodorant, hair dye, mascara, eyeliner (for performing), and just got my new binder. It can be done. I get soap and stuff like that from the local Mission. And every Monday they hold a clothing closet where I find almost new clothes, sometimes with the tags still on. And I take online surveys from a site that pays out immediately. About a buck a survey. It's not much but it's something. It can be done. Keep your head up. I'm also next month getting into housing that will be paid for until I get back on my feet and get a job.
Not trying to sound like a prick or anything. I didn't believe any of this could be possible, didn't believe that my life was what I made it until I applied myself and started to believe in myself. Now I'm getting back on my feet. I don't live a very rich life...I'm basically poor and semi-homeless until I get my house and a job. But I'm determined.
zombiesarepeaceful
If it matters to you at all, even though I've never met you, I really admire you.
Never give up.
Thanks :)
I know the goal seems far away but with self discipline in saving for the surgery, hormones, etc...if you want it bad enough, it'll happen. I used to be the exact opposite. I used to cringe in fear of what would happen to me if I couldn't afford everything. I used to not believe in myself and think nothing would be possible and ever happen. But it did, and it's still moving right along. It's hard to keep your head up when life is complete ->-bleeped-<-. But somehow I managed to grasp onto how to do it, and I'm running with it. Yeah, I still break down somtimes. And I hate to see when it happens, it scares me really..to think of being my old self again. It's something I fight everyday.
Oh, and I'm wiccan/pagan if it makes any difference. I don't believe in the christian god either. Doesn't make you any less of a person. We're all free to our own beliefs.
Quote from: SilverFang on March 18, 2010, 09:36:41 AM
Atheists simply claim there are no deities, and that's it.
Agnostics doubt the claims of deities and also doubt the claims that there are no deities.
It conflicts.
No, it doesn't.
An atheist is anyone who lacks belief in a deity.
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know/isn't certain about the existence of deities.
One can have belief with or without certainty, and certainty with or without belief. The phrase "agnostic atheist" is used by those who simply don't believe in God/gods to differentiate themselves from the sort of atheists who believe there is no God/gods.
Quote from: SilverFang on March 18, 2010, 09:36:41 AM
Atheists simply claim there are no deities, and that's it.
Agnostics doubt the claims of deities and also doubt the claims that there are no deities.
It conflicts.
Atheists do not claim there is no god they simply lack a belief in god(s) and agnosticism is the acceptence that you can never know for sure. I can't see how it conflicts.
If this helps: http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm (http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm)
Anyway, never give up. Everyone's on hard times right now. I've got $100,000 in student loans and can't find a job so I'm substitute teaching day by day-- sometimes I get work every day for awhile and then there are times when I go without work for weeks. I never know. I'm lucky enough that my mother is letting me live with her since we own our house and it's all paid off and stuff (although I have to admit I'm less than thrilled about coming back and relying on my mother when I'm supposed to be a successful, college educated adult), but we're still struggling with stuff and there's not much extra money. But getting all pessimistic about it never helps anything. I go by the theory that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I do believe in God, but I don't believe God's perfect or omnipotent or anything like that-- I believe that God's growing and changing along with us. It's easy to just blame someone or something for your problems and heck-- a lot of times there IS someone else to blame-- but blaming them doesn't fix the problem. You need to start with what you have and work from there, not worry about what you SHOULD have and what you want to have. Keep looking forward and keep working day by day. Things may not happen when you want and how you want, but if you just keep plugging away eventually they'll happen.
I understand your feelings completely. I am in a financial bind right now, I just got out of court a few days ago. I find it very frustrating to get a summons just to tell the companies lawyer I don't have a job or money. Seriously, you can't get blood from a stone no matter how much pressure you put on it.
There is, as always a way forward. For me it is likely bankruptcy (but, ironically enough it takes money to declare bankruptcy) and then perhaps some sort of education. I think I'd like to enter some medical field. Then it is living on $0.88 Banquet dinners from the local Walmart and repairs on my 31 year old truck so that I can actually save some money.
I don't know the OP well enough to say what he should do specifically, but here is my advice: Take inventory of your strengths and weaknesses, design a realistic plan to get you out of your mess that plays on those strengths and weaknesses. It may take many iterations of your plan to get your out of your mess, It may take many years, but I would like to believe that anything is possible.
This is happening to a LOT of people, most people are trying to keep up appearances and no reveal how badly their lives are crashing.
Matthew, Zombies, you guys rule!
I lost my business, car, everything, in mid 2007. Went to stay with a friend in N. Arizona for a year, income was maybe a thousand a year, and Food Stamps. Everyone is on Food Stamps out there. Taught myself caricature drawing and sold off everything that would not fit on my back, and rode my 250cc motorcycle back out to California. I figured being a caricaturist would keep me fed. Surprise! No one cares out here. I ended up panhandling, then living off of a girlfriend, then selling various crafts on the street, basically hustling 'em for tips. I moved here, an undisclosed location, where I'm allowed to live for free in a trailer you'd have to PAY anyone else to live in. It's OK, I've replaced roof, plumbing, electric, and am gradually making it more liveable. I live on about $5k a year right now if I work really hard. Food Stamps are hard as hell to get out here so I don't bother, between food stores, what I earn, the garden, chickens, etc I'm in no danger of starving. I do chores around here and drive myself harder than the landowner would ever drive me, it works out great.
The alternative if I hadn't found this place would be a life expectancy of maybe 5 years, living on the street. So this place is a miracle! But miracles occasionally happen. What made this one happen was, while living off of my girlfriend I was fixing up everything at her place, and I got to know the guy who owns this land from a Peak Oil board, and he was impressed with my work ethic. This is one way of making a miracle happen.
I'm going to EMT school now because we'll need people with that skill set and more in the coming times.
My testosterone and 2 doctor visits a year costs me $500 a year. The T is $20 a month and I allocate $100 per doctor's visit which actually pays it all, I donate the excess to Planned Parenthood where I see this doc. Needles come with the test.
Up in the city of SF, I could probably get T and the doc's consults for free.
We're basically preppers, survivalists, here. Life is to be enjoyed and to prepare for the coming times. The ideal is society crashes and you don't even notice. I'm gambling that T will be obtainable for a while, as for surgery well .... that may happen for me and may not. Basically top surgery can be saved up for.
Being homeless is NO FUN. You lose things; it took me over a year to get a decent soldering iron again, same for a working digital camera. The keyboard on this 10-year-old loaned computer was so bad I had to HAMMER on it, the one I spent a lavish $10 on at a swap meet is wonderful. I dare now to assume, as I'm told, that I can stay here into the forseeable future since I'm a friend and useful. But in the back of my mind there's always the worry that I'll have to go feral again. I suspect that never leaves a person.
Performing, making small handicrafts, are good ways to make ends meet on the street. Also putting together a bunch of little ways to bring in a little money, that add up to a living.
Anyone who likes can send me a private message to ask questions etc., and I'll share whatever I know.
Quote from: Nathan. on March 18, 2010, 01:19:55 PM
Atheists do not claim there is no god they simply lack a belief in god(s) and agnosticism is the acceptence that you can never know for sure. I can't see how it conflicts.
Quote from: kyril on March 18, 2010, 12:57:43 PM
No, it doesn't.
An atheist is anyone who lacks belief in a deity.
An agnostic is someone who doesn't know/isn't certain about the existence of deities.
One can have belief with or without certainty, and certainty with or without belief. The phrase "agnostic atheist" is used by those who simply don't believe in God/gods to differentiate themselves from the sort of atheists who believe there is no God/gods.
I'm not going to agree with you and I doubt I'll change your minds. I drop it here.
Quote from: spacial on March 18, 2010, 12:08:36 PM
zombiesarepeaceful
If it matters to you at all, even though I've never met you, I really admire you.
Same here. You show us that no matter the circumstances there's always a way to transition. Some things we might have to wait on but the possibility and looking forward to it is always there.
Quote from: Alex_C on March 18, 2010, 07:39:35 PM
My testosterone and 2 doctor visits a year costs me $500 a year. The T is $20 a month and I allocate $100 per doctor's visit which actually pays it all, I donate the excess to Planned Parenthood where I see this doc. Needles come with the test.
Damn, I hate you right now (just because of the money thing). My testosterone costs me way more than that. I pay almost $500 just for one appointment and blood work and I do both twice a year, then I pay about $120 for my T and needles through the year as well.
For the OP, I'm not sure where you are from but if there is a planned parenthood near you contact them! There are several cities where planned parenthood offers services for trans people for discounted rates. They are just now starting here in Nebraska and I know that they had it in California somewhere originally. Our FTM social/support group here is actually ran by a transman who works for them and deals with all of their trans related issues. He finally pushed through and got them to start a program in the last couple of months after trying for a few years. He told us that they are talking about expanding the program nationally. Here they offer discounted blood work I know for sure, I haven't been to a meeting lately so I'm not sure what else they have. I've heard some offer help with counseling and obtaining T but I'm not sure if that is true or how they handle it.
I'm in the same boat as you, and on top of it my fiancee is mtf so we have double the costs! Her surgeries alone would bankrupt us (which is funny because I'm already in the process of claiming bankruptcy right now). Add mine on top of that and I will be amazed if we can afford to complete both of our SRS needs by the time we are in our 50s, considering that she turns 30 next month and has had no surgeries at all and neither have I. It's very depressing how it all goes. Our only luck is that she gets student loans but we both work so it's really just extra money. Hopefully by the end of 2011 we will be able to pay for my chest surgery, we've agreed that will be our first step since it is something that prevents me from being able to participate in regular activities like swimming and also prevents me from passing all of the time (despite my small A cups!). She passes regularly and of course has breast growth and penis shrinkage from hormones so she can deal with it easier than I can. It's a huge bummer though, I've been out for 10 years and still have to wait another 2 years for my first surgery and God knows how long after that for my bottom surgery :(
Cowboi - Come on man, I'm getting my services in Santa Cruz, not exactly the cheapest place in the world! My alternative would be a supposedly "cool" doctor in Los Gatos who'd be about the same I think. I have no health insurance. I pay cash. The T is from Strohecker's and comes with #18's for drawing and #22's for injecting. Some of which are dull. Just gotta man up. I know a guy using the T cream, that's expensive. But injecting is cheap.
All - Just about EVERYONE is going through this economic thing. It's just that just about EVERYONE thinks everyone ELSE is doing OK! The truth is, everyone's naked under their clothes, and everyone's financially naked under this new economy.
Zombies - I really applaud you for performing at that gay bar, once you get good enough you may branch out into other places too. People keep telling me music/performance are bad careers financially speaking, but what careers are good ones these days? I see musicians making $100 a night, for a few hours' work, that's pretty good to me. Drive on!
The truth is that anything that works for you, is worth pursuing. Whether it's making baby clothes, making brownies and selling them door to door, fixing bikes, picking up bottles and cans, anything. Once you've adapted to living on a very low income, what used to be a hobby becomes something that can sustain you.
Quote from: Alex_C on March 19, 2010, 01:51:50 PM
Cowboi - Come on man, I'm getting my services in Santa Cruz, not exactly the cheapest place in the world! My alternative would be a supposedly "cool" doctor in Los Gatos who'd be about the same I think. I have no health insurance. I pay cash. The T is from Strohecker's and comes with #18's for drawing and #22's for injecting. Some of which are dull. Just gotta man up. I know a guy using the T cream, that's expensive. But injecting is cheap.
I actually use Strohecker's as well but I have to fill my prescription twice a year, we must just be on different doses. Also the place I go here for blood work and my endo is actually one of the cheapest in tow, it's actually through Creighton University's med school and I always have a lot of student doctors and ->-bleeped-<- coming in with my endo to see me and learn about dealing with trans clients. I'd say Omaha isn't to expensive to live in but it also isn't cheap, just about average :)
California is an expensive place to live, except for the other 49 states. Actually 48 since Hawaii is cheaper.
I'm taking 100mg a week. You're likely doing that or 200mg every 2 weeks.
I worked it out on a yearly basis, out of curiousity and to reassure myself that I can afford it even if I have to make the $500 a year by holding a sign by the freeway onramp.
since Hawaii is cheaper.
Perhaps for T, sugar, and pineapple, but not for anything else. Rent in Honolulu makes Tiburon look like a low rent district. Everything else get shipping from the mainland tacked on to the cost, so very little is cheap there.
It sounds like you are paying $2800 a year. You need to move to California. Too expensive where you live and I bet all your other expenses are sky high.
I've had 3-4 FREE places to live in CA here, electricity's cheaper, gas is cheaper, people will give you vehicles if you keep your eyes open and ask, etc. Whatever the rumor mill tells you, you can count on it being the opposite.
Quote from: Alex_C on March 19, 2010, 05:17:51 PM
I'm taking 100mg a week. You're likely doing that or 200mg every 2 weeks.
Yeah we are on the same dose, I pay $60 per vial after shipping. I think I use like 2 and a half vials a year, so I actually pay like $150 per year. I also don't have health insurance or anything that helps cover the costs so it's all out of pocket for me as well, and the same for my fiancee.
We both have other medical costs as well though that really add up. My meds for being bipolar alone cost over $300 per month, I am just lucky that I have low enough income that I qualify for a medication assistance program through a local clinic and get mine for like $15 per month. Then of course my fiancee is also on T blockers and she is bipolar as well so that's another $50 a month for meds.
Then we both have to see the endo twice a year and get blood work so we spend about $2000 a year just for that, she also has to get extra blood work done for her other meds so that's anouther $500 a year. Plus you have to add on psychiatrists and all of that stuff it gets crazy around here.
I think between the two of us we spend about $4,000 a year out of pocket and that isn't even paying for the entire visit up front with most of our doctors, just the little $30 or whatever they make you pay when you come in to begin with. That is a permanent $4,000 a year as well since all of our medical issues are things that are life long and will always need treatment.
Our surgery total combined for everything will end up being AT LEAST $50,000 if not more, all out of pocket unless something changes in the next 10 years!
Forgot to mention that the $50,000 only includes basic top and bottom surgery costs, not the extras she will need for appearance like shaving the adams apple, etc. She doesn't need and doesn't want any facial surgeries at least. She had a nose job to correct a deviated septum and a good half a dozen broken noses through out her life that had left her unable to breath out of her nose for over 15 years. Other than that she didn't want anything else done to her face.
I make maybe 5 grand a year. Your med expenses are almost my whole yearly income. Ouch.
Yeah it sounds like the same stuff, $60 a vial after shipping. I vial lasts me 3 months, actually a bit over that, 20 doses. My doc visits with blood tests cost a bit under $100.
My income right now is almost all made during the warm months, there's no income to speak of during the cold months. So, this ends up making for an adjustment to living on very little. You just start trimming away, and trimming away ...... the economy may come back somewhat for me now that the weather's warming up, but surviving winter is a mini-Depression happening every year, to keep me on my toes and pessimistic.
You know those old guys who save used nails and string? Well I'm one of those guys!
Quote from: Alex_C on March 19, 2010, 01:51:50 PM
Zombies - I really applaud you for performing at that gay bar, once you get good enough you may branch out into other places too. People keep telling me music/performance are bad careers financially speaking, but what careers are good ones these days? I see musicians making $100 a night, for a few hours' work, that's pretty good to me. Drive on!
Thanks dude. I would have already branched off into other bars if I still had my car. Once I get one, get a job, etc...I will be. It's by no means a career..it's just an outlet for negative emotions, for all my rage against my body...etc. At this bar we don't get paid to be in the show, unless we're a host, then you get $50 for hosting. I make ok tips though...about $10 a number if it's a good tipping crowd. And I usually do 2 numbers a show. I might have a chance to host in late april. I didn't even think I could dance when I started doing this but...surprise. It's worth a shot, if you need money and can get past the stage fright. Finding an outlet like this for negative emotions is great, whether it's writing (which I also do), sports, whatever...it eases a ->-bleeped-<-ty life and ->-bleeped-<-ty circumstance.
I found a therapist through a person that is also trans, she only charges $35 a session and its online, and my friend had like 5 sessions and got his T letter.
Zombies - I have a ukulele and a bunch of uke books, I haven't been practicing because of all the other stuff going on, EMT school etc., but that's kind of my insurance in case my one good eye goes bad. That's what people did 500 years ago, if you're blind you become a beggar or a musician. That's the world we're going back to, as we enter the Greatest Depression. Since I can see, there are all these things I can do, making things and learning about things etc., but if that changes, well, I have music to fall back on I guess. Imagine the world of the 1930s and then imagine it going down from there.
A big problem in the US is, without a car you're a non-person. You can't get a job, go anywhere, etc., frankly the way it's planned, if you can't support a car you're supposed to just sit down and die. I sure can't support a car, this is why I'm glad to have this place to stay, I do chores and stuff, the guy's a fellow survivalist, so it works out nicely.
Quote from: Alex_C on March 20, 2010, 01:26:34 AM
Yeah it sounds like the same stuff, $60 a vial after shipping. I vial lasts me 3 months, actually a bit over that, 20 doses. My doc visits with blood tests cost a bit under $100.
I find it weird that it doesn't seem to last as long as it should. There are only 52 weeks in a year, if you are taking weekly injections then the vial should last about 5 months. 4 weeks in a month, 20 divided by 4 is 5. I just got mine filled at the beginning of December and I am just about to need a refill here at the beginning of April or so. I have found that I forget a few shots here and there though, it's funny because the math never seems to actually work out. If it was actually 20 shots it should last me until almost the end of April, but even with missing 2 or 3 doses it will be gone at the beginning of April. Have you noticed that too? And I do know that I'm taking the right dosage, I mean I even have a second person here to keep tabs on it with me who actually understands it all since she does injections as well for her estrogen.
On a side note though I did just have a job interview yesterday for a kick ass job that went really well. The woman who interviewed me told me it was the best and most enjoyable interview she'd had in the last 3 days. All they supposedly need to do now is check my references but they are all people I know really well who are excited to get to help me out and talk me up so I can get a job finally, and one of them is actually already employed by the same company. It's just hotel reservations for Marriott, but it pays really good! I would be working part time and making $9.25 on week days and $11.25 on the weekends. For a part time gig that is hell of good!
Three months doesn't seem like enough time, even with the extra weeks in some months. In the end it should still only be a little over 2 vials a year like 2.5 ish but still less than 3 per year. My last labs killed me $166 bucks and since I am having a problem with the T and my Liver I now have to do more testing, killing me this year. At this point I am at over $1000 in labs so far in the last year. I get my T from Stroheckers also.
Crazy
Myles
Hmm .... 52 weeks a year, 20 injections out of a vial..... I dunno they last me a while, over 3 months but I try to refill my prescription every 3 months, I dunno.
I heard today from a lady I met at a garage sale that they like EMTs at the local hospital, T-guyz or not, and the real way to get hired there is to know someone there. Someone with a bit of clout. That's how my ex got in, it's all networking. But I seemed to charm her and I found her to be a very nice person so I have good feeling about this. They hire EMTs to train as hyberbaric techs and a few other things. I'm actually not in a hurry to get a job, I like doing my own thing but a part time job if it's interesting is another things.
I have a friend who works for a local University, as they keep geeting cut in the current economy he went back and did his EMT. Now he works weekends in a small town where he knew people and he had the network there to get in. I really do think it is all about networking. He seems to like it and thinks it would be a fine back up career if he loses his job. He's currently a lobbyist for rural health care and really like the health care field.
Good Luck
Myles
Money is an issue for me as well for going on T or furthering my transition at all. Other issues are keeping me from transitioning as well do..I've decided to just not pursue being Male anymore since it is causing too much problems for me and my family
Good times...Being Male was good times
I only assume a vial will last me 3 months so I get to get pleasantly surprised each time when it actually lasts longer.
My treatment is cheap enough that I can be sure of getting it. I may have to go back to panhandling, fight the other street people for bottles and cans, stand with a sign by the freeway onramp, etc but I can come up with $500 a year.
I'm trying to fight my way back onto the online economy if I can. It's extremely wait no, EXTREMELY hard now. Ebay's out of the question; I'd need a separate residence, with its own internet access (very high speed too, almost T1 speed) and a brand new computer, etc to do it now. I looked into it. It's cost me a year and a half and $200 to get a digital camera again, at least I can do Craig's List and if it's possible to set up a PayPal account, secretly and anonymously enough, I can sell crafts through a blog and on Etsy.
Mainly the idea is to live at least somewhat happily, and prepare for the coming times.
I am getting ready to get my ebay account active again. Last time I made close to $2000 selling stuff I had setting around my house. I still have a bunch left to sell, I used to collect baseball/basketball cards. I figure I will need the money at some point so why not sell the stuff now, have the money setting around for when I do need it.
Myles
Ebay has gotten REALLY bad. Really really REALLY bad. If you've been out for a few years you'd not recognize it.
Try it again but be VERY CAREFUL they're seizing people's accounts and holding their money for months on end, stuff like that. Very very bad.
Quote from: Alex_C on March 21, 2010, 10:16:30 PM
Ebay has gotten REALLY bad. Really really REALLY bad. If you've been out for a few years you'd not recognize it.
Try it again but be VERY CAREFUL they're seizing people's accounts and holding their money for months on end, stuff like that. Very very bad.
Not just that but it seems like the things that are being sold go between horribly over priced or horribly under priced. For example, I can buy this little hand held gaming system used in my town for $30 bucks, on eBay people try to sell it for close to $100. Then items that you'd normally be able to sell for $100 or more I see people getting for like $25. It's really hit and miss now days on that site.
I think a lot of E-Bay was always like that. Things are worth whatever people will pay for them, whatever that price is.
I used to gross $6k-$8k a month on Ebay.
In mid-2007, 2/3rds of my business disappeared. It didn't come back.
You can still make money on Ebay. But we're in a deflationary economy where 40% of the working age population is out of work and the other 60% are looking over their shoulder nervously. I'd like to say survivalist oriented stuff is doing well, but why is even that stuff getting so cheap?
You just have to be very very careful. You need to come as close as possible to zero living expenses. You need to ask yourself, What if my job goes away? If I can't afford gas? If Food Stamps go away? If the soup kitchens go away? If the trucks stop coming to the markets at all? Not saying these things will happen but what if they do?
An example is food stamps. I qualify, obviously. But it takes several days a month of fighting with them, for a bit under $200 a month in food stamps. The same number of hours spend panhandling is better because you can fight and fight with the gov't bureaucrats and they can still arbitrarily cut you off, cut them way down, or most scarily, decide to collect on PAST allocations of food stamps, pay up or go to jail. And say all goes well, OK then the gov't runs out of money or just plain collapses, no more Food Stamps! It's a big disruption if you depend on them, none at all if you've given 'em the big F.U.
Watchwords these days are Frugality, Resiliency, and Anonymity. If you're all tied into the grid, then you crash when the grid crashes. You might want to be out of its way when it all comes crashing down, and that could happen in 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, who knows. But it's a matter of When not If.
I'd love to believe everything's gonna be all nice and normal again. That any of us could get a job at Tastee-Freez and get that fat minimum wage and work our way up to Jr. Manager in 7 years. Or that an engineering degree will be worth something again. I used to never be out of work longer than a week or two. This thing we have going on is a Depression. This is what one looks and feels like from the inside.
So you are not alone. Just about everyone is having a hard time and thinks they're the only one, and that it's a personal failing. The powers that be want us to think this, so we'll pay for trade school and retraining and professional resume services and sign up with headhunters and buy a new suit or two at Brooks Brothers to interview in. That stuff did always work in the past.
I even look like I'm with the program. I'm in EMT school! Look how I blend right in. I spent a thousand hard-earned bucks, which I had to borrow and pay back, to pay for it. But it's different this time, and I'm in EMT school for the training, and I'll be very surprised if I ever earn a dollar as an EMT. We'll need people with medical skills in the coming times, especially since those in it for the money are gonna quit. There's not going to be much money in anything, the idea right now is to use what economy is still standing, to prepare for an future where money doesn't mean much.
Quote from: Alex_C on March 22, 2010, 12:00:56 AMThis thing we have going on is a Depression.
Thank you. I've been saying this for awhile but no one will believe me since the government and news won't admit it. Recession my ass. The only reason it's not admitted is because people will freak out more than they already are. I don't blame them really.
I call shenanigans on that.
The fact of the matter is that there is not a depression, but an almost incredible redistribution of wealth from the lowest classes to the highest classes. It's hardly across the board, which a real depression would be. Hell, just south of where Alex lives people spend in a week what he makes in a year, just to play golf. And it's harder to get a tee time at Pebble Beach or Spyglass now then it was a few years ago. The real expensive restaurants in Monterey are doing fine. I know a lot of people (myself included) who are making more money now then they did five years ago, and in my case, ten years ago when I was a college professor.
Alex, by his own admission, spend a huge part of his early life training for the Olympics. Me, being stupid, spend it trying very hard (to the degree of pretty much crippling my social life for over a decade) to do two things - a) do very, very good in school, and b) studying electronics. So, it's not exactly - but precisely - both our faults where we find ourselves today.
What is going on is not a depression, but in animal husbandry terms, far closer to a culling.
That's true, but even during the Depression the rich got richer and the wealth redistribution was extreme. For the low and middle class people life is harder, they have less money and might as well be a depression. I too make more now than I ever did (and hopefully stay that way) but many, many people don't. It could be from losing their jobs or losing hours, salary and benefits from work. Unless you're part of the 1% who own big money life is harder now in several ways- directly or indirectly.
Radar - you've got it dead on. But yes, if you go around saying it, you come off to people looking like a wild-eyed kook. Of course the "doom is nigh" crowd are looking eminently sane these days.
And anyone who reads up on the stats knows that the top 10% or so have never had it better, the unemployment rate for those making $150k a year or better is 3%, and so on.
I personally think the future looks like Bosnia. I'm preparing for a future like that. We are. Gonna be a lot of evening-up to do :-D
Quote from: Alex_C on March 22, 2010, 10:51:48 PM
Radar - you've got it dead on. But yes, if you go around saying it, you come off to people looking like a wild-eyed kook. Of course the "doom is nigh" crowd are looking eminently sane these days.
I think the reason it seems that way is that honestly a lot of the opinions you have shared even here are very extreme even if it is assumed and taken for granted that we are in a depression. It has always pretty much been true that people will look at those with very strong ideas as "kooks" when those ideas don't always fit in with the reality of society.
Honestly many of the things you have said in this thread are very extreme views that are not completely accurate.
It is easy for people to sit around and complain that the economy is crashing and that people think they are crazy for feeling that way, it's harder to actually change your life and do something about it. The fact is most of us are where we are because we made choices that lead us here. How many didn't go to college? How many who went to college went into booming fields that hundreds and thousands of other people ran to pursue as well causing too many workers and not enough jobs? How many people sitting around on unemployment actually apply for more than the two jobs they are required to apply for each week (if and when they even apply for those two to begin with)? How many people have taken the time to pick up a phone or start walking around town asking about job openings instead of looking at places like craigslist and careerlink online?
For the most part a lot of us who are sitting here complaining signed, sealed and delivered our current lives on our own. We all want to claim we worked hard and many of us feel that way but look around, it simply isn't all that true. Look at the people I went to school with as an example, I am doing far worse than the majority of them. I'm also one of the few who didn't go to college right out of high school, I didn't complete my classes and stay in school, I didn't work to further my education and give myself other options for jobs and a career. You yourself admit that this is not really the road you took either.
Your life is what you make of it just like mine is what i've made of it. Like me you aren't unhappy with your situation, you have chosen to have little and you have found peace with that. It isn't anyone's fault but our own and it is not a result of the government and economy failing so much as it is a product of our own behavior and actions.
I think a lot of is just the hustle. And having options. The people I know who are doing well don't have a job, they have a portfolio of jobs really. They work for a band or a theater, and when that's not going on they take other stagehand/production/tech jobs, and when that's not happening they have something else. I take photographs for local real estate agents of houses they are trying to sell. It's worth a couple of bills a day, and it tends to be very pleasant work, with very pleasant people - the people whose houses I shoot are very nice to me as they are interested the house selling. So I shoot the house, inside and out (for stuff like ads, web sites and virtual tours), email the stuff to the agent and that's it.
Hell, I make about a thousand bucks a year from Burning Man. Because when all that equipment comes down from the playa it has to be cleaned. Cleaning miles of cable, by hand, with water is pretty dirty work, blowing out the speakers and electronics is dirty too, but hey, it's money and I don't even have to go to the Nevada desert in August to get it.
Quote from: tekla on March 23, 2010, 11:40:28 AM
I think a lot of is just the hustle. And having options.
I definitely agree with you on that. For those of us who are not in industries that are growing, staying steady or whatever it is just about doing what you can to make it by. I make my money doing what I can here and there, mostly selling things and helping people out, but I enjoy that. Amongst my friends it's pretty well known that I'm the go to guy, if you need something I can find it, find it fast and find it cheap. Most of the stuff I do I don't really get money for but it's situations where those people will look out for me later when I need something. A lot of people will buy me food, cigarettes, etc since I helped them out.
Fact is I could have a job right now if I really wanted one. It may be a crappy job in fast food for minimum wage but it is a possibility.
Cowboi you are figuring it out.
Quote from: Alex_C on March 24, 2010, 03:30:36 AM
Cowboi you are figuring it out.
Do you mean the whole thing about just kind of doing what I can to get by like I described in my last post?
It's actually kind of funny because we visited a friend last night and talked with her about some of this same stuff, like using the skills you have to make some cash on the side when you need it. She is unemployed right now and is in danger of loosing her place to live, luckily the rent is pretty cheap (only $375 a month, I'm jealous!).
She's really into the idea of doing private beauty consultations for transwomen in her home. She was a hair dresser for 20 years and during that time period also worked at one of the local beauty schools as a teacher. We are going to try to get her in as a speaker at our local trans support group doing a presentation where she will give some basic tips and show how they can be used and applied by having some of the women act as models for her. Then she is going to leave some home made cards and hopefully at least a handful of people will be interested in learning more from her. She's going to simply work with the ones who do want to come see her based upon their own income.
I think it will be really cool to see how it goes, as well know there aren't a lot of places you can go where someone will really sit down with you and one on one explain some of the things that would really help you pass. And for transwomen hair and make-up can be such an important thing with so few people available who are willing to help teach you how to do it yourself on a daily basis that works best for each of them personally.
I'm not even the one doing it and I'm excited, lol.
Barter works well too sometimes. People talk about it like its some new deal, but people trading stuff and skills with each other is as old as stuff and skills
COWBOI -
I think the reason it seems that way is that honestly a lot of the opinions you have shared even here are very extreme even if it is assumed and taken for granted that we are in a depression. It has always pretty much been true that people will look at those with very strong ideas as "kooks" when those ideas don't always fit in with the reality of society.
ALEX - Agreed. The "kooks" look pretty sane these days, the guy I know who plays banjo on the street and makes bank, and is all paranoid about leaving a paper trail, is looking pretty good these days!
COWBOI - Honestly many of the things you have said in this thread are very extreme views that are not completely accurate.
ALEX - I'm probably laying some of it on thick, but wait'll the economic Doom hits you, you'll like it thick just like your sleeping bag hehe.
COWBOI - It is easy for people to sit around and complain that the economy is crashing and that people think they are crazy for feeling that way, it's harder to actually change your life and do something about it. The fact is most of us are where we are because we made choices that lead us here. How many didn't go to college? How many who went to college went into booming fields that hundreds and thousands of other people ran to pursue as well causing too many workers and not enough jobs? How many people sitting around on unemployment actually apply for more than the two jobs they are required to apply for each week (if and when they even apply for those two to begin with)? How many people have taken the time to pick up a phone or start walking around town asking about job openings instead of looking at places like craigslist and careerlink online?
ALEX - Indeed. I made the extremely poor choice to go into electronics, hence my fixing it by going into EMT or something related. As for applying for jobs and looking around, trust me that's being done. I personally believe it's all gonna crash, it may take a few years but it's coming down, folks. I bet everyone here a beer I'm right. So I am working on MAKING jobs or getting skills that make me in demand (EMT, possible hyperbaric tech from there its I have 2 contacts now with the local hospital, less said about that here the better) since I want to WORK but I also want to be HAPPY. Surprise, surprise, I'm DOING that. I also had the sense to move back to California when I saw how much the rest of the US sux bawls.
COWBOI - For the most part a lot of us who are sitting here complaining signed, sealed and delivered our current lives on our own. We all want to claim we worked hard and many of us feel that way but look around, it simply isn't all that true. Look at the people I went to school with as an example, I am doing far worse than the majority of them. I'm also one of the few who didn't go to college right out of high school, I didn't complete my classes and stay in school, I didn't work to further my education and give myself other options for jobs and a career. You yourself admit that this is not really the road you took either.
ALEX - Exactly. My decision to go into electronics was an extremely poor one. I meet ex-engineers and techs on the street routinely. It's a road to poverty. Sure, I like being able to solder, to set up clandestine antennas for "Listening Post Alpha" here, knowing how to fix or build stuff, but there's NO money in it. Thus, going back to school for EMT, and EMT-paramedic-ER-tech-various hospital things or EMS things or both are a process of constant learning, just the re-certification process to keep current means going back to school and doing internships etc on a constant basis. If I'd never heard of electronics, this ls likely the path I'd have taken, because before the electronic age, if you were smart, you likely went into the clergy, medicine, or became a teacher. That's where smart kids got channeled. I'd have done the medical route because it's fairly interesting if you disregard the body fluids and feces and well, gross stuff. I avoided going further than veterinary tech because of same. Electronics was clean. That's right, I screwed up my life by being a wimp. Now I'm correcting that. Various others here may have made similar bad choices because they didn't like hard work, or washing dishes for 5 years to make it into the kitchen (there's MONEY in washing dishes and kitchen work folks!) or doing various things that involve tools, protective gear, helmets, boots, etc. Folks, if it's dirty, dangerous, or demeaning, that's where the money is.
COWBOI - Your life is what you make of it just like mine is what i've made of it. Like me you aren't unhappy with your situation, you have chosen to have little and you have found peace with that. It isn't anyone's fault but our own and it is not a result of the government and economy failing so much as it is a product of our own behavior and actions.
ALEX - This is why I said you get it. The economy is changing. Let's forget for a moment that we're heading into the Greatest Depression and just say it's changing. OK so the solution is to understand that the rules have changed, or that you can often make your own rules now, and work with that. Have several things you do that add up to a living. Or discover that you really like being a school janitor instead of a PhD in something useless like computer science. Or, start a biz! Which these days means not getting angel investors and the SBA involved, it means discovering you have a knack for setting up the best cleaning service in town or developing a line of functional crafts (look up "paracord bracelets" for an example) or maybe something new that's not been done (here in the US which means not done - one idea I may try for fun is making something I saw over in Barcelona) and so on. There's a show on the radio here called the Marty Nemko show, and I believe you can get all the KGO programming online, he's worth listening to for some pep-talking and ideas.
I should have gone the full-quote route before. This is why I say you've got it. And you need to move to California if you want to live cheaper.