I have been increasingly thinking that we mtf transsexuals may have unrealistic ideas about genetic women and womanhood in general. Do we not tend to think that women are all sweetness and light, kind, compassionate and completely accepting of 'others'? This highly romantic view in my opinion is potentially psychologically distressing to the mtf transsexual when the transsexual encounters real-life women and finds them quite often to be hateful, judgemental, terminally bitchy and even vicious!
I am a member of a womens' forum and I am shocked almost on a daily basis by the way the genetic women at this forum behave. At the moment one woman is taunting another about her miscarriage, while that woman is accusing her tormentor by writing 'well at least my baby died naturally, you murdered your baby didn't you!!'
This is the same forum where in the chatroom a certain member when ever I entered would turn the conversation around to what she called 'perverts'. She would rant and rave about 'perverts' and then turn to me and say 'of course I don't mean you sweetie'. This happened on at least four occasions, so she did mean me and was adding insult to injury by trying to insult my intelligence. I have had other women at this forum tell me ' I don't want anything to do with you'. Other women patronise me and dismiss my opinions, e.g when I defended a new male poster who the pack were attacking solely because it amused them I received an angry rebuke from one of the important members (this place is as hierarchical as any male forum) and I quote ' Sweetie it is time to pick a side and STICK WITH IT!' In other words I was to blindly accept female ideas and values. These 'values' I understood to be, always side with women, men are the enemy, never go against the sisterhood. The attitude of the women at this forum to men who wander into the spider's lair is one of open scorn, everything a man posts is to be doubted and disputed and his welcome is chilly. If a new woman member starts posting things like 'all men are cheating bastards', she will be greeted with 'hi sister this is the place to release all that anger about men' Female anger is always justified however nasty, while men who are angry are verbally torn to pieces.
This man that I mentioned above made what seemed to me a very reasonable argument, but he was howled down, his manhood was questioned, he was told that he was probably 'fat, ugly and impotent', needless to say this man never came back, and the pack have added another scalp to their swelling collection.
Are you appalled by what I have written? Do you think these women are exceptions to the rule that genetic women are docile, gentle, and welcoming? Of course much of what goes on at this womens' forum could be put down to bravado - you can say what you like on the internet, you can safely snipe at people while hiding behind your computer monitor. However, what I sadly have come to believe - thanks to this forum - is that genetic women have a very definite dark side, one that contrasts sharply with the 'sugar and spice and all things nice' attitude that we mtf's seem to have a desperate desire to believe.
I have begun to hate that place with a passion, but I can't seem to leave, do you know why? It is because two or three (I mean literally two or three) of the women there have been kind and supportive towards me and I am pathetically grateful towards them for this. If I had any self-respect as a woman I would walk out and never look back. However, a member just needs to refer to me as 'she' or 'her' and I am so grateful that I hang around trying to win the affection of the top girls(it is like being at high school at this forum) who either completely ignore me or are dismissively patronising towards me.
To end this post I want to thank you for listening to me vent and to make you think about just how realistic are your views and opinions on genetic women and womanhood in general. Before going to this forum I viewed genetic women in a very rosy almost saintly light. I sometimes wonder if I really am TS or am I someone who just cannot accept the cultural role(s) assigned to males by our repressive society. That is maybe why I held such exceptionally romantic views about genetic women. They would welcome me with open arms and completely without judgement. My being seen and accepted by them as female wouldn't rely entirely upon me pleasing them at all times, and we would live in a place where it was endless summer and we would spend our days holding hands, supporting each other, going on picnics and arranging flowers. It would all be so deliciously and intoxicatingly feminine! There is something infantile about all this.
Perhaps these women have actually been doing me a favour by letting me seen into the heart of womanhood, something that they take pains never to reveal to men. Perhaps they did accept me as a woman in a strange sort of way?
I do believe you might, with a bit of effort, be able to find a more congenial forum. It sounds like you found a real viper's nest. Why stay and accept such abuse? Can't you remain friends with the few pleasant ones via e-mail?
In my experience, online forums --of whatever sort-- are frequently a maelstrom of backbiting, gossip, prejudice, jealousy, pettiness, one-upsmanship and rage, all of which are all non-gender-specific characteristics. Rather than draw any conclusions regarding the nastiness of either men or women, I prefer to think that this reflects on the kind of people who obsessively habituate the online venues.
~Lannie~
EDIT: Removed link
Some thoughts.
1. Of course women have a dark side, they are human.
2. All forums have a particular flavor. This forum that you speak of is particularly vile and hateful. Yes, there is a certain segment of women that revel in man bashing. Sounds like you found them.
3. You are known by the company you keep.
4. Women have a "sisterhood" of sorts; i experienced it recently with my own wife, who said that she wasn't about to treat me like some sort of girlfriend. After I pondered that statement for awhile i realized that she meant that she wasn't about to share or was open to share her womanly experience with me. And she has talked about how her friends have essentially frozen out men at work that have tried to befriend her female coworkers and enter their sphere.
I think that you might consider finding a new forum to hang out on.
I would say yes, and also that genetic women have unrealistic views and expectations of genetic women and womanhood, so we're all in the same boat :).
(you can replace woman with man and MTF with FTM and I would stand behind that as well.)
Of course we are overly sweet around here. We share a common foe that can kill upwards of 25% or more of us due to suicide.
I just need to look at my mom and sisters to see how mean natal girls can be to eachother. Rather vicious bitches.
I know quite a few natal women who are very nice and non confrontational. sweet ladys.
So I personaly try and patern my behavior after the nice females and try and not be that vicious bitch my mom trains her children to be.
Hmm. I was never part of "the sisterhood" then. It must have just flown right past me.
I just see women being nasty to each other to fulfill an unhealthy fascination with social drama I don't quite understand.
Edit: Spelling error.
Quote from: Stephanie on March 23, 2010, 08:40:33 PM
I have been increasingly thinking that we mtf transsexuals may have unrealistic ideas about genetic women and womanhood in general. Do we not tend to think that women are all sweetness and light, kind, compassionate and completely accepting of 'others'?
I have never held that viewpoint and I never will.
This reminds me of a conversation I was having with a friend the other day, about how most of the things that we think of as "male" or "female" traits or behaviors are really just people things. Everyone does it, but it's more noticeable for most people in one group or another.
That said, it sounds like you really need to find a new forum to hang out on. It sounds like a really toxic environment, and those places can screw with your head something fierce (ask me how I know XD). If you can't bear to turn your back on the few people who make it worthwhile, maybe you could keep in touch through some other means? In the meantime, look for groups that can be supportive of you.
I don't know if you knit or crochet or anything at all, but this ravelry group has been a godsend for me (http://www.ravelry.com/groups/this-is-what-a-feminist-knits-like (http://www.ravelry.com/groups/this-is-what-a-feminist-knits-like)). I think it's very telling that their number 1 rule is Be Excellent to Each Other.
I don't think I have an unrealistic view or expectation of women. After all I was married three times and I have seen first hand that women can be just as mean , vile and nasty as men.
And like all forums there are those that can attract certain kind of people. And some are very good support, while others are very good at having a bitch session.
For me I try to be the type of woman my Mother was. She was a caring and understanding type of woman. But she was, like I am, very opinionated. I never really saw her being a bitch, but I think she could have been.
Are we all flowers and lace? Heck No. We are people, who have their own opinions. For better or worst. But on the net we tend to gravitate to those that are like minded. If you don't care for the tone of that other forum, leave even if you have friends there. They may just follow you out.
Quote from: SilverFang on March 23, 2010, 09:55:09 PM
Hmm. I was never part of "the sisterhood" then. It must have just flown right past me.
I just see women being nasty to each other to fulfill and unhealthy fascination with social drama I don't quite understand.
Amen to that. I gave up trying. There's no hope.
I'm not sure I have views and expectations of women or womanhood.
I expect people to be themselves.
I've seen both sides be pricks/bitches and douchebags. It seems to be a human flaw, not a gender based one. That being said, if you find yourself on a forum where everyone seems to enjoy attacking others, then it's definitely time to move on. Get the contact info/email ect of the few you DO enjoy talking with and talk to them via whatever means outside the forum.
Any forum I have joined in the past (and still to this day), if I get people treating me like crap, I don't go back.
I think some might have an unrealistic view simply because they don't know what it's like. I would have to say I know because I've experienced and been part of it. Women can be very mean and they will pack together. Sisterhood can be very, very strong.
Just watch the L-Word and times that by a thousand. LOL
A character named Max, a FTM person, once said it something like this about it (I love this, quoted from a website):
"I know something interesting about lobsters. You don't have to put a lid on the pot when you cook female lobsters, does anybody know why? Well, when you cook a pot of male lobsters--when they realize they're in this pot of boiling water, they all start totally freaking out, they're like '->-bleeped-<- we gotta get out of here!' so they start making these little ladders and helping each other get out of the pot so you have to put a lid on the pot to keep them inside. But female lobsters, you don't have to put a lid on the pot. Because once they realize they're in a pot of boiling water they all just start grabbing each other and holding each other, they're like, "If I'm gonna die, we're all gonna die," none of them wants to let any of the other ones get out of the pot, it's a real shame, isn't it?"
- Edit: -
I should also make mention that being a woman isn't all bad. And sisterhood can be your greatest, and most cherished connection. Finding the right women to hang around is important, too. Also, your friends will stick with you. I've been involved in many girl fights and I've had friends stick by me and even fight with me. I'll be honest, I know how to socialize very well with a group of women because of experience being with groups of women -- it's a great tool and sisterhood is an asset.
I don't think you can say "we mtf transsexuals" have any such group deficiency, I think such things depend too much on the social experiences of each individual. I have to agree with Natalie. Before I moved to Australia I shared a house with a natal woman and her natal female lover, whom I will be staying with again when I go back to the U.S. for my SRS in a few weeks. There is a group of about 6 other female friends we hang out with, we go out together, party together, gossip together, go shopping together, and try on each others clothes together. Any one of us would come to the rescue of any other, and in fact have done so on numerous occasions, especially when watching out for each other when we go out. It feels very nice and natural being a part of a "girl's club" like that, and yes I'll just say we have our own catfights from time to time, but I feel sorry for anyone who would try to start trouble with any of us when any of the others are around.
Quote from: Ashley4214 on March 24, 2010, 12:15:10 AM
I'm not sure I have views and expectations of women or womanhood.
I expect people to be themselves.
Well said, Ashley!
I don't think I'm looking to be some sort of ideal woman. I simply want to be myself, and that self believes in her heart that she's a woman. There are good and bad parts to any group of people, it's not specific gender. The important thing is to pick the traits you want others to see you in you and go with it. If you want to be a snarky bitch, then go for it! If you want to be sweet as you wanna be, then go for that, too! The point is, just be yourself!
There are no moral differences between the sexes - all men are not bastards, and women are not sugar and spice. But anyone who's had kids knows that there are gender differences which seem hardwired into most kids, irrespective of their socialization (tho we, of course, are the living proof that those differences are not absolute) ... Little boys are, by and large, much more openly competitive than girls, more physically boisterous, more likely to have physical fights, but also faster to resolve conflicts and get along as a group. Girls are capable of being much sweeter, more thoughtful and more emotionally connected with one another ... But precisely because their conflicts are less open, they can be much deeper, more toxic and more emotionally hurtful. Girls are also much more detailed in their critical judgements of one another. A boy will just say another kid is dumb or gross, or whatever. A girl will notice the way an enemy (who may have been her friend the previous day) dresses, does her hair, talks, etc, and have something bad to say about it.
And guess what ... Nothing changes!! For good and bad alike!!
O_o
Hm. On a related note, I think that a lot of trans men take a dim view of cis guys. It's like we trans guys are better men than cis men because we were brought up female and don't have all of those nasty male characteristics like aggression, competitiveness, obsession with our penises, etc. I really do think that a lot of trans men are anti-male. This might be especially true of guys who came from lesbian communities, I guess.
Quote from: Stephanie on March 23, 2010, 08:40:33 PM
I have been increasingly thinking that we mtf transsexuals may have unrealistic ideas about genetic women and womanhood in general. Do we not tend to think that women are all sweetness and light, kind, compassionate and completely accepting of 'others'?
;D ;D ;D lol Too funny Stephanie! No Illusions here! I know it may be a somewhat touchy subject as well but ever hear of "Lesbian Bed Death (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Lesbian_bed_death)"? I have learned to positively dislike *womankind* in general (go figure & of course there's always exceptions!) and which is why I'd rather, if needs be, sleep alone than give up completely on the prefered company of MEN!
Can ya PM me a link to the site? Could use a good laugh promise I won't mention yer name!
Ever see this? Why women are to blame for killing off real men? (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/femail/article-564654/Why-women-blame-killing-real-men.html) Are WE just one glaring example of what this article is taking about or has there indeed been something lost on the great "battlefield of the sexes" and are we by nature simply more attuned to what
Men Really Want?
What Women Want Now (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1930277_1930145_1930309-2,00.html) & The Second Most Beautiful Girl in New York (http://www.observer.com/2008/arts-culture/second-most-beautiful-girl-new-york)
Here are some of my thoughts on this;
1. A 'sisterhood' of women simply doesn't exist, at least not in this context.
2. There is no 'brotherhood' of men either.
3. I don't get along with someone else just b/c we are the same nationality, why would gender be any different? (i.e. things that aren't choices don't make for good bonds)
4. There are mean and nasty people out there, and there are great people out there, on all spectrum of gender.
5.Gender stereotypes aren't good, but they do turn out to be true about as often as they are false. So I don't mind falling into a few, and not in others.
6. Women may not always be nice and they may be downright cruel to you, at least they are alot less likely to be violent toward you, kill you or rape you. This isn't conjecture but statistics. It doesn't mean a woman won't try and hurt you, just odds are you are safer around women than men; which is reason enough for me to prefer their company.
Quote from: Hikari on March 27, 2010, 03:08:34 AM. . . Women may not always be nice and they may be downright cruel to you, at least they are alot less likely to be violent toward you, kill you or rape you. This isn't conjecture but statistics. .
Not to be argumentative or change the subject Hikari but I seriously question who's making up these *stats* when 1) physical violence is the only thing our lazy, overloaded court systems seem to be willing to consider, understand now-a-days and 2) it's a pretty well accepted fact that
as a consequence general reporting by males, due to natural pride factors involved, is grossly non-existent to the point where male-chauvinism & neonazi-feminists are, on this score at least, United As One!
In other words *the stats* mean squat (so ya better base yer intra-personal, one-on-one relationships on something else)! In terms of well-being I'd trust an honest, forthright male (in spite of "faults") over the wily, indirect ways of a female anyday!
People are people. There's societal things which treat people differently because of their gender, but in terms of any kind of moral stereotype--there is none.
People always tend to have high expectations about anything that means a lot to them. Just look at all the people who hold unreasonable expectations about careers in music, modelling or TV. You've just got to surround yourself with good people and try not to work things up into an unreasonable fairy tale.
@kiera: There may be some bias in the statistics, but I highly doubt their conclusion is wrong. In order for women to commit as many violent crimes as men the justice dept would have to be ignoring 402,000 female sexual assaults, 1.9 million female armed robbers, 12,000 female murderers, etc.
I think there may be a bit if a difference between the statistics and reality, due to people not wanting the women to have committed the violent act; but there is no way that the statistics are over 80% off. I mean contrary to stereotypes, no woman I have ever met can just gets out of a crime by virtue of being a woman, I am not saying it never happens, but I have never seen it, so It cannot be that prevalent.
The source for those numbers being the Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999 report. they are based from 1993-1997. New statistics can be found at http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov)
Quote from: Hikari on March 27, 2010, 11:05:35 AM
@kiera: There may be some bias in the statistics, but I highly doubt their conclusion is wrong. In order for women to commit as many violent crimes as men the justice dept would have to be ignoring 402,000 female sexual assaults, 1.9 million female armed robbers, 12,000 female murderers, etc.
I think there may be a bit if a difference between the statistics and reality, due to people not wanting the women to have committed the violent act; but there is no way that the statistics are over 80% off. I mean contrary to stereotypes, no woman I have ever met can just gets out of a crime by virtue of being a woman, I am not saying it never happens, but I have never seen it, so It cannot be that prevalent.
The source for those numbers being the Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999 report. they are based from 1993-1997. New statistics can be found at http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov)
I can't speak for the US, but in the UK there has been a significant jump in crimes in general, and violent crimes in particular committed by women. This is due to (a) if women are free to behave as they want, rather than as a sexist society demands they will do many of the things that men have traditionally done, including committing crime and (b) there has been a massive increase in binge-drinking by young women and there is an absolutely rock-solid link between alcohol and violence. Most public violence by females is committed against other females ... there does, however, remain a huge gulf between the amount of violence committed by women against men that is reported by pollsters who speak to people anonymusly, and that reported to police. Men just will not come forward as victims because they fear (rightly in most cases) that police will either think they are wimps for 'allowing' a woman to attack them, or must have asked for it in some way. Attitudes to men in this context are where attitudes towards female rape victims were maybe 30 years ago, ie, 'She asked for it.'
Quote from: Hikari on March 27, 2010, 11:05:35 AMIn order for women to commit as many violent crimes as men the justice dept would have to be ignoring 402,000 female sexual assaults, 1.9 million female armed robbers, 12,000 female murderers, etc.
Aye! Sorry my bad! I suppose I didn't make my point very clearly which is based on my experience only and was specifically referring to "father's rights" as it pertains to childbirth and family (and the gross inequalities that exist in the multi-billion dollar "poor her" Domestic Violence Industry)!
As far as the other crimes you mentioned all I can say is "go figure", you'd think all these running rampart male criminals never once had a mother or father!
Quote from: Arch on March 27, 2010, 02:46:43 AM
Hm. On a related note, I think that a lot of trans men take a dim view of cis guys. It's like we trans guys are better men than cis men because we were brought up female and don't have all of those nasty male characteristics like aggression, competitiveness, obsession with our penises, etc. I really do think that a lot of trans men are anti-male. This might be especially true of guys who came from lesbian communities, I guess.
I've been thinking the same. I seem to have avoided a lot of the general male foolishness. And I can't be the only one.
@kiera:
That's cool I got a bit defensive there when I really shouldn't have. I apologize for any misunderstanding. When it comes to domestic violence then you are absolutely right, people do like to turn a blind eye to women's participation in domestic violence.
I know in my mother and stepdad's 3 year marriage she only went to jail 5-6 times tops and he went at 10-20 times. He gave her a black eye she hit him with a car which breaks his legs, and he gets blamed, hardly seems fair... In any case I admit there are serious problems (at least here in the south) when it comes to domestic violence and custody (where men are rarely considered fit to be single parents apparently).
Quote from: SilverFang on March 27, 2010, 05:36:04 PM
I've been thinking the same. I seem to have avoided a lot of the general male foolishness. And I can't be the only one.
Of course, things can change quite a lot on T, as they have for me. But trans guys actually try to tell me that if I'm more competitive and aggressive, it can't possibly be the T. They don't want to admit that a trans guy can be a lot like a cis guy, even without the "benefit" of male upbringing.
Because women, you know, are angels...
I think that making any statement about people needs a lot of qualifiers – blanket statements don't work well (perhaps including this one ::)). Women are people; men are people. There are nice ones and not-nice ones and many who are sort of nice or nice much of the time but not always.
My friends – male and female - are nice to me and I am nice to them. If they weren't nice to me they wouldn't be my friends. If I wasn't nice to them I wouldn't be their friend.
As a woman I have found an informal sisterhood with other women, some of whom are strangers. I never found that as a male, but then I wasn't all that good at pretending to be a man so it was probably me more than them. As an outsider I have seen it among men sometimes. I've certainly seen it among gay men, even though I wasn't one. I don't have much close experience with lesbians, although the few I know pretty well are good friends to me even though I'm not a lesbian. Still, you aren't automatically in the sisterhood or brotherhood just because you have a vagina or a penis or are gay or lesbian.
And, if I am allowed to make another general statement, I think some transsexuals have unrealistic views and expectations of what life will be like for them after transition. But perhaps that is just a human condition too – having unrealistic expectations.
- Kate
Quote from: Arch on March 27, 2010, 02:46:43 AM
Hm. On a related note, I think that a lot of trans men take a dim view of cis guys. It's like we trans guys are better men than cis men because we were brought up female and don't have all of those nasty male characteristics like aggression, competitiveness, obsession with our penises, etc. I really do think that a lot of trans men are anti-male. This might be especially true of guys who came from lesbian communities, I guess.
The feeling appears to be mutual; many transmen display the qualities of character that disqualify one from being regarded as a man among most non-TGs, regardless of anatomy. Many of those traits are acceptable or even laudable among lesbians, and these transmen may find themselves more comfortable living out the remainder of their lives in such company.
I am unable to distinguish the general trend conversation among MtFs on Susans from that of biological females, but there are clear differences between that of the FtMs and those of the men I know. However, given that I am not female, I may well be missing very obvious differences among women that I can spot easily among men. It may also be, noting this and the previous observation, that MtFs are generally more successful in psychological and social transition than FtMs.
- N
Quote from: Nimetön on March 28, 2010, 06:15:35 AM
I am unable to distinguish the general trend conversation among MtFs on Susans from that of biological females, but there are clear differences between that of the FtMs and those of the men I know.
Go on...
(I agree, but I'd like to hear your take on it more specifically)
I would like to point out though that while there are a lot of women here who have been socially and physically transitioned for a long time, the overwhelming majority of the guys are both very young and very early in transition. That's going to skew the conversation somewhat. FTMs who fully transition and "pass" seem to vanish into the ether, except for those who remain part of lesbian communities.
Quote from: kyril on March 28, 2010, 02:39:40 PM
Go on...
(I agree, but I'd like to hear your take on it more specifically)
I was hoping to provoke others into giving their examples. I've thought of writing out my observations and analyses on the differences between FtM and biomale mindsets, but I suspect that such an article would be met with a great deal of defensive and nonconstructive passion.
Quote from: kyril on March 28, 2010, 02:39:40 PM
I would like to point out though that while there are a lot of women here who have been socially and physically transitioned for a long time, the overwhelming majority of the guys are both very young and very early in transition. That's going to skew the conversation somewhat. FTMs who fully transition and "pass" seem to vanish into the ether, except for those who remain part of lesbian communities.
That's an excellent point. I hadn't considered that detail, but I agree with the assessment.
- M
Quote from: kyril on March 28, 2010, 02:39:40 PM
I would like to point out though that while there are a lot of women here who have been socially and physically transitioned for a long time, the overwhelming majority of the guys are both very young and very early in transition. That's going to skew the conversation somewhat. FTMs who fully transition and "pass" seem to vanish into the ether, except for those who remain part of lesbian communities.
Agreed. I also observe that while a lot of FTMs come from anti-male separatist communities, I've never heard of an MTF who came from an anti-female separatist community. I think that this phenom has a bearing on what we are talking about, although I'm not prepared to delve into that too deeply here.
Another thing--since T has indelible effects on MTFs that E cannot reverse, these folks probably spend a lot more time and effort in learning stereotypical female mannerisms so that they can "pass" more readily. But the FTMs have the benefit of T and don't necessarily feel the need to study male mannerisms so assiduously. This could be especially true if they continue to spend a lot of their time in spaces that are predominantly female. In such an environment, it would be acceptable, and, indeed, preferable, for these FTMs to hang onto some of the fem characteristics they still have. (Otherwise, I suspect that they would not be able to move in these circles at all...even in very small groups of close-knit friends.)
Again, this is pure speculation.
I wonder if trans men who maintain close ties with lesbians ever feel like they are in a double bind. Could they retain or even seek to adopt certain stereotypical fem traits so as to appear more trans and less male? If that makes any sense? Because I know that some lesbians are very, very, suspicious of men and feel (sort of going back to the original topic) that women are better human beings than men; would a trans guy in a relationship with such a woman feel pressured to act more female?
Am I too off topic here? Maybe we guys should start over somewhere else.
When people go online, it's like they're driving around in their cars. The computer, like the car, provides a buffer zone from other people. The person stays in his or her own little world.
Sometimes this leads to very rude behavior. I have a pet theory that people who are a$$holes online are rude drivers, and vice versa. And that considerate driving and considerate Internetting go hand in hand.
It might just be that female-dominated spaces exacerbate the passive-aggressive catty behavior that is inculcated in girls from an early age. Girls are socialized that way because society in general does indeed like to have a sweetness-and-light view of girls. Active aggression is not only discouraged but punished, so girls learn to be aggressive in other ways. That is, passively.
I don't really think MTFs in particular have an unrealistic view of women and girls; I think society in general is still operating under that belief. Perhaps it's diminishing in recent years, but you can still see it working merrily away in mainstream American society.
Its definately an individual thing. I know for myself I always thought i didn't quite fit in but i had seen others who i thought did.
Seems to me if we have a problem with other people or groups of people, we want to find other people to support our views.
Somewhere along the way i finally realized that i fit in more than i thought i had in the past but i was too focused on my self in the past to see that truth.
So the end of the story is don't worry and be so self focused because you can always find what your looking for even if its negative. And its a waste of time trying to get others to support our self focused views. I know this because i did this to myself ohhhhh sooo many times.. :embarrassed:
seek the positive seek the positive seek the positive 8)
Quote from: Arch on March 28, 2010, 05:03:41 PM
I don't really think MTFs in particular have an unrealistic view of women and girls; I think society in general is still operating under that belief. Perhaps it's diminishing in recent years, but you can still see it working merrily away in mainstream American society.
This.
Quote from: Nimetön on March 28, 2010, 03:48:58 PM
I was hoping to provoke others into giving their examples. I've thought of writing out my observations and analyses on the differences between FtM and biomale mindsets, but I suspect that such an article would be met with a great deal of defensive and nonconstructive passion.
If it's worth anything, I'd be interested in reading it.
Quote from: Arch on March 27, 2010, 02:46:43 AM
Hm. On a related note, I think that a lot of trans men take a dim view of cis guys. It's like we trans guys are better men than cis men because we were brought up female and don't have all of those nasty male characteristics like aggression, competitiveness, obsession with our penises, etc. I really do think that a lot of trans men are anti-male. This might be especially true of guys who came from lesbian communities, I guess.
I find that I don't, unless the male is just an out right ass lol I do find I understand certain things better than I think bio guys do, but I definitely pull for the guys team in general. I also find that I'm as anti woman, especially with someone who's an outright bitch. I suppose I'm pretty fair sided in my opinions =D
Right. You just happened to get me with red wine and I'm feeling passionate, so here goes!
It's my opinion that every single person here has thought about their life, what they feel, what they think, how they think, every moment of their life without end. GID is just that. For me anyway, every single thing I do and say is shaped and targeted towards who I actually am, rather than who I appear to be.
Now, you say perhaps that our opinion is unrealistic. I can only speak for me, but in my experience, just about every single person who has GID has the same life, same story, same feelings, same background, just individuals vary a little bit.
Referring to my point that I have lived my entire life, as long as I have living memory, under no circumstances have I any false ideals or notions about 'womanhood'. I am me. You are you. Simple as. It's the person that decides how they interact, not the gender of that person.
If I asked you what to expect if you moved to some distant suburb of inner china, you more than likely wouldnt have a bloody clue. You have never experienced it. Not completly. You may have seen it on tv, or have met someone who was there.
That is not a perfect metaphor for GID as feeling this way gives you natural inclinations that aren't learned, but felt. BUT, no one knows exactly what anything is until they have been there. Worn the proverbial t-shirt.
So to summarise and I did say at the beginning I've had red wine so I'm feeling passionate :P
No, nobody knows exactly what something is like unless they have been in that exact situation, BUT, when your entire life is shaped by something and everything you think about and feel is because of that thing, you begin to think very realistically about your options and how things will actually change should you transition.
In life there are good people and bad people. Let's keep this forum full of good:)
Quote from: Arch on March 27, 2010, 07:41:49 PM
Because women, you know, are angels...
Oh yeah, I figured I should respond. That's not my view, in fact I believe there is far more female foolishness. And I seem to have avoided a nice chunk of it as well (well, for a person my age.)
I think being relatively (mentally) androgynous has benefits. Well, I think I'm mentally androgynous but I guess I'm not the best judge of me.
If I came across a room of women like that I would set my Blaster to rapid fire.
Quote from: Natalie3174 on April 01, 2010, 12:18:38 AM
If I came across a room of women like that I would set my Blaster to rapid fire.
Now, now, don't get your panties in a twist! Besides, wouldn't a lightsaber be more fun? >:-)
Quote from: SilverFang on March 28, 2010, 07:11:09 PM
If it's worth anything, I'd be interested in reading it.
Seconded. It's always interesting to hear the opinions and observations of others, especially when they aren't a member of the group they are observing.
But I can understand why you don't. If you're right, then a whole lot of FTMs are bound to take your group observations personally (and respond accordingly) :laugh:
I honestly wouldn't have thought the cismale hating, lesbian community hang-arounders would make up a sizable chunk of the FTM population. I would have thought that it'd work like the thread topic backwards - there'd be an overwhelming number of FTM misogynists.
As for the thread topic - I think it exists on both sides to some extent, however I also think that the longer you've been mixing with your cisgendered counterparts, the less you tend to have unrealistic views. Though there is bound to always be a little positive bias there.
Yes I have had unrealistic views and expectations of genetic women and womanhood, it was going to stop me from transitioning.
When I was going through the acceptance stage I kept thinking that there was no way I would ever look feminine, that I would end up looking so much like a man in a dress. I am getting over that fear as I go along.