I'm at work. I just asked my workmate if she had heard rumours about me. She had, so I said it's all true. I can tell she thinks it's weird because last year we had a friendship based on America's Next Top Model and Gossip Girl, two things I still enjoy!
I didn't really get to tell her much. How do you defend this sort of stuff to people?
I guess they'll take me seriously once I have hair sprouting in new places and a deep voice. I feel like everyone still sees me as a girl. My new flatmate called me Missy today. Crushed. The majority of my friends seem to be at the point where they call me Eli but still use female pronouns. I know some of it is just programmed in but I think I need to make a royal proclamation.
hmm...i'm wondering this too (i love americas next top model!)..cause i like some 'girly' stuff and such (my one random neon unicorn blacklight poster haha, even though he looks badass). i guess i don't really have much advice but would like to see what others have to say.
but i mean, i'd think most people when they see a guy likes something considered 'feminine' or w/e would think it's more of a gay thing. still i've known plenty of manly cis straight guys that have a random interest thats totally out of left field and not manly at all -shrug-
btw i can't imagine people using female pronouns with you! even like how sometimes people do it on accident with transexuals, i dont think i'd ever accidently say it since everything about you just screams male my mind wouldnt mess up that way, lol.
It's annoying right, if a cisguy likes Top Model they won't go OH YR A GIRL THEN, just maybe say they're gay. I find it so annoying that people might be questioning my transition, say because I have a collection of ceramic deer.
And yeah, I'm gonna have to have another word with people about the pronoun thing. I guess it's just because I only came out at the beginning of the year, so people who have called me she for ages need to adjust. I was being understanding but I can't stand it any longer. Maybe I'll get a t-shirt printed with HE on it!
I never had particularly girl interests. My voice is masculine and I have a goatee and I do not wear anything like make up or skinny jeans. But I am sensitive and like cute animals, and Im kind of a wuss. I don't really have a problem being told I'm too feminine, for me its that Im not masculine enough in the eyes of my family, which to me is worse :/
Still, the concept of being trans is so confusing that it doesn't really grasp their minds unless they open up and do some thinking outside the box.
You know, I was just thinking about this today. I have no idea how you defend yourself in these situations, but I can sort of manage to turn it around so maybe people will understand it better; you could try that maybe. I recently bought two rabbits, and my mum said that my dad had said "it's not very boy-like, wanting pet rabbits" EVEN THOUGH he had tons of rabbits and birds and all sorts of pets as a child, and even as an adult, and it doesn't make him any sort of woman.
The animal thing is weird. Like I love cats, have two of them and talk about them all the time. But I actually know way way more crazy cat men, then I do crazy cat ladies. My dad is one of them. His cat Malkovich is his life. He talks about him endlessly, complains about the price of cat food, complains about Malk's eating habits, left me a really long message about his trip to the vet etc etc.
My cousin Peter used to have rabbits living free range in his house! He's in his 40s and a successful lawyer.
A lot of my family were brought up around animals, and my dad was never allowed to have any in his house as a child, so we had to have loads of everything. It makes me sad to see it as kind of being used against me though, almost as if to 'prove me wrong', it's like a horrible double-standard.
That's what I hate. They would never pull this stuff on cis guys, I'm sick of having to prove myself. I wish they'd just go, what are you some sort of HOMO? I'd like that just fine.
Quote from: Berren on June 12, 2010, 08:24:38 PM
You know, I was just thinking about this today. I have no idea how you defend yourself in these situations, but I can sort of manage to turn it around so maybe people will understand it better; you could try that maybe. I recently bought two rabbits, and my mum said that my dad had said "it's not very boy-like, wanting pet rabbits" EVEN THOUGH he had tons of rabbits and birds and all sorts of pets as a child, and even as an adult, and it doesn't make him any sort of woman.
Chances are your dad is using this as an excuse to deny your identity. I personally would love bunnies :3
Quote from: Kyle XD on June 12, 2010, 08:42:22 PM
Chances are your dad is using this as an excuse to deny your identity. I personally would love bunnies :3
That's pretty much it, yeah. He seems to think that one day I'll wake up and realise I actually do want to be a woman. Pfft.
And yes rabbets are adorable. The two I have are 10-12 week old and so shy and soft. Love them to pieces already. :)
Quote from: Berren on June 12, 2010, 09:05:24 PM
That's pretty much it, yeah. He seems to think that one day I'll wake up and realise I actually do want to be a woman. Pfft.
And yes rabbets are adorable. The two I have are 10-12 week old and so shy and soft. Love them to pieces already. :)
Ha my mom thinks the same thing. My girlfriend has a bunny. She loves that thing more than me. I can't have one cuz my moms allergic. But someday....
Quote from: Kyle XD on June 12, 2010, 09:13:40 PM
Ha my mom thinks the same thing. My girlfriend has a bunny. She loves that thing more than me. I can't have one cuz my moms allergic. But someday....
My mum has openly said that she's accepting of whatever I do, which I'm grateful for. It's just a shame I'm not able to be open about everything with my dad. Aww, is it a house rabbit? All the previous rabbits we've had have belonged to my siblings/my dad, but thse two are mine to look after. :0
Quote from: Berren on June 12, 2010, 09:20:17 PM
My mum has openly said that she's accepting of whatever I do, which I'm grateful for. It's just a shame I'm not able to be open about everything with my dad. Aww, is it a house rabbit? All the previous rabbits we've had have belonged to my siblings/my dad, but thse two are mine to look after. :0
Yeah it's a house rabbit. His name's Peanut and hes cookie dough colored. She gets them from a slaughterhouse because theyre cheaper and they save their lives by buying them. Shes trying to convince her mom to let her get a female so they can have babies. Shell have a million by september 0_0
Eli, I don't think you can defend yourself. I used to get pissed off when that happened to me, but it's your interests and hobbies. Obviously not going to change them and don't try to overcompensate. I know how difficult it is, but you really just have to say 'screw it' and move on. People still say that crap to me and I've been on T for almost a year. You're probably going to have to deal with this for years. My mom always tells me "well REAL men don't wear/watch/enjoy that so you shouldn't do it." Whatever. I wear tight clothes, listen to dance music, and love americas next top model and I'm a man. Just try to forget the idiots.
if someone doesn't agree with you transitioning, they'll find anything they can to show how "unmanly" you are.. because you're still not a man in their eyes anyways. screw people, they're not stuck in the wrong body, we are.. I say get the shirt, I'm about ready to marker it on my forehead for the day.. Mom won't have an excuse then :)
Quote from: Evan on June 12, 2010, 10:35:11 PM
if someone doesn't agree with you transitioning, they'll find anything they can to show how "unmanly" you are.. because you're still not a man in their eyes anyways. screw people, they're not stuck in the wrong body, we are.. I say get the shirt, I'm about ready to marker it on my forehead for the day.. Mom won't have an excuse then :)
^ This is probably the reason behind it.Also, just thought I'd say that Russell Crowe (Gladiator - actor) knits when he is bored and was often seen knitting while on set of his films. Now knitting would be considered an extremely feminine hobby. I think he said his Grandma taught him as a child. Now isn't that cool?
I don't think anyone would dare call Russell unmanly or gay even. 8)
I have a rabbit she is a house bunny but I do have alot of pets incluing 5 aquariums my biggest is 4ft, gerbils, 5 spiny mice, and 4 differnt types of stick insects (lost count on how many I have lol) + a dog who lives with my parents cause no dogs are aloud in the building although we are going to be changing landlords soon so I will write to them when it happens and plead my case to try and be able to have a dog here. I suffer from depression and at one point before I even moved into where I'm living right now my dog was the ONLY thing getting me out the house if it wasn't for him bugging me to take him for walks when it was time I would have just stayed in all he time.
I'm also very sensitive and went to art college for about 4 years, and I have also been thinking about my collection of abjd's (asain ball jointed dolls) yes they are dolls hardly a manly thing to have but then again I'm not getting rid of them ok so its kind of gay for a guy to have dolls right well thats ok cause I like men so call me a ->-bleeped-<- lol, I'm quite a big stocky looking guy not your typical camp queen type.
"normals"?
I don't know. My closest friends are fairly queer-aware, and they tend to take me more seriously the more I show that I'm just being myself and not trying to fit some kind of stereotype. Other than my husband I haven't come out to anyone who has any kind of investment in me being female, and with my (very straight) husband I'm inclined to pretty much let him think what he wants.
But I do think the best defense is basically to get people to be a little more introspective and realize that they and their friends aren't stereotypes either - that your "feminine" interests, like theirs, are just part of being a real and authentic individual.
It's kinda hard to explain to people. I've been in this situation many times. I normally don't mention my "feminine" interests (as you put it) in conversation unless it comes up, in which case I don't mind discussing it. Just try to explain that just because you like some supposedly feminine things, doesn't mean that you're not a guy.
If you're feeling adventurous, you can try and do what Ron White did (proving that everyone is a little bit gay)! Man, that would be funny! (If you don't know, look it up)
At any rate, even if they don't listen, remember yourself that it doesn't make you any less of a guy. After all, gender roles are defined by society.
Quote from: kyril on June 13, 2010, 03:36:16 AM
that your "feminine" interests, like theirs, are just part of being a real and authentic individual.
I think you pretty much said it, Kyril!
LOL. I like rabbits to :), and I will admit, I'm not any tough guy either. I do tend be a bit sensitive, I like to chat as well. But I'm a guy.
<-- Bellydancer. Need I say more?
I'd say: " So I have this friend '__malename__' who likes '__feminine thing you enjoy or one comparable__' is he a girl too?" then go on to explain how: " My dysphoria with my physical form has nothing to do with my interests in activities that have been socially gendered. I suppose you don't have any masculine [or feminine, whichever would apply] interests at all then do you?"
This really shouldn't be so important to us, but I can understand why it is. It shouldn't be so important because, of all people, we should be the most aware of how random gender stereotypes are and therefore how invalid. We have spent our lives so far restricted by female gender roles based on random societal concepts, so why should we want to swap them for equally random and restrictive male gender roles? We like what we like and that is it.
However, it is important to us because we want to be convincing as men. Having a femmy hobby is therefore threatening that. I wonder if we are more sensitive about it than biological men (who are notoriously sensitive about being seen to do anything that would compromise their fragile, butch identities).
As for me, I identify as a gay male, so I can get away with anything! I love a lot of stereotypical gay male stuff, like opera, musicals, fashion etc etc and I am quite happy with that.
And, Jay, I collect BJDs too! Is it something in the resin, do you think? ;)
Quote from: Papillon on June 14, 2010, 04:19:34 AM
And, Jay, I collect BJDs too! Is it something in the resin, do you think? ;)
OMG you do, I've always said they put something in the resin to keep making us buy more lol.
I also have bjds :D I know a few guys in my city who also collect dolls so I'm not too fussed about it being seen as girly anymore.
LOL! Now I want to know what your DoA usernames are!
Funnily enough (and going slightly OT here, but I have to share) a guy did a documentary on our local BJD meet group recently and concluded that BJDs were the hobby of outsiders. He based this on the observation that we all considered ourselves to be at best unconventional and at worst alienated and felt that our dolls reflected this. Curious, eh?
I collect BJD's too. I blame Jay, since he got me into them in the first place! :laugh:
BJDs are expensive, something i can't afford.. :'(
Oh what makes you think I'm on doa lol ;) I don't use it that much the market place is to tempting lol.
Yes they are costly.
Jay, because we all end up there, whether we want to or not. ;)
Damian, they drain your bank account and fill you mind and living room. You are best out of it ;)
But this is getting interesting. I wonder how many of us engage in this rather unmanly hobby?
Yes and they demand us humans buy them things lol
So how many does everyone have on here at the mo I have 10 living with me.
Er...*goes off to count*...15? Ahem.
A picture of four of my boys for those of you who are wondering what the feck we are talking about.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4032%2F4701244096_b601be1da9_b.jpg&hash=90f4a4db4ed2a1d8083bc80a6d026c531c04a358)
*points* OMG Saint I have a Saint to :)
Thankfully I've seemed to have escaped having to buy things for them just lately, though Cain still wants to be steampunk. (just like me!)
You guys are awesome. I collect those vintage prints of big eyed children and animals and I also have tonnes of ceramic deer. I have a big collection of Jem dolls too. I love toys!
I don't think I'll ever have the money to collect BJDs, but I sure do enjoy looking at pictures of them. :)
*pets the Saint* He makes a very good Mad Hatter!
O.o
Normals?
Oh who cares. By normals I mean people who are very binary about gender. Not implying that trans people are abnormal.
So, cisgendered folk, then? ;P
I like some things that are deemed feminine, but it's never been called into question and they're not that many. I'm pretty sure most people who knew me that found out I was transgender thought it made a lot of sense. People would actually take issue with my lack of femininity or they couldn't see me doing anything feminine.
I think gendering interests is pretty lame, though. Or even applying how you dress or what you enjoy deems a sexual orientation. I don't understand how being a certain orientation means you must or probably like 'X' when it's pretty irrelevant. Trends, maybe, but that tends to be marketed or influenced.
Only some of them haha. Some trans folk fit that definition too I guess.
Quote from: Papillon on June 14, 2010, 02:17:18 PM
LOL! Now I want to know what your DoA usernames are!
Funnily enough (and going slightly OT here, but I have to share) a guy did a documentary on our local BJD meet group recently and concluded that BJDs were the hobby of outsiders. He based this on the observation that we all considered ourselves to be at best unconventional and at worst alienated and felt that our dolls reflected this. Curious, eh?
I think that's interesting, is it possible to view this somewhere? Nice dolls you have Papillon, I only have 3 XD 2 msd and 1 yo-sd size. I'm very picky about the face mould lol =.='
I haven't really been approached by anyone to explain my interests/hobbies but with dolls my reasoning is that they're fun to photograph. I've noticed that a lot of people have figurines and pose and take snaps of them, so I relate it like that.
Waffles, I am still waiting on him to get back to us with details of the finished doc. He is a film student and was doing it for his end of year project, I believe. I will let you know when I know.
I don't feel a need to justify my dolls at all. Yes, I photograph them (LOTS!) but I also play with them. So what? I also have quite a few action figures and I don't see a huge difference between the two, except in scale.
And I wasn't allowed action figures as a child ("boys toys") so perhaps I am making up for lost time ;)
I'd also like to see the doc when its done and you hear back from him it would be interesting to see, I was aloud to have boys toys when I was a kid He-Man, Star Wars,Transformers, cars dinosaurs etc.
I also love to photography my bjd's I went to art college for about 4 years and majored in photograpgy but since leaving college in 2000 I haven't really done much but since getting the bjd's it has got me back into taking photos and doing my own face ups :)
Ok, that'll be great ^^
I never played with dolls as a kid, so I think my friends/family were surprised when I got into this hobby XD My mum always bought me lego and knex for some reason, but I love doing hand on stuff anyways lol.
oh boy. i played with barbies as a kid, but then at the end of that 'phase' i started putting them in the toilet and cutting their hair off, and hanging them from nooses. maybe that was my inner-boy coming through lol.
I was arguing with an older relation the other day about how I had always been male. No I don't know why I bother arguing. She pointed out that I use to be very much into Gone With the Wind, both the book and the film and she didn't know any men who liked that.
I believe even back when I was 13 or so I was impressed with the sexuality and power of Rhett Butler. I wanted to be him. I wanted to emulate him. Learning everything I could about the story was my way of getting closer to that without having to define it.
I can't think of any "feminine" things I like that my family could turn around on me, because I've kinda always gone out of my way to show people that I dislike feminine things, but I'm sure they'd come up with something...
Quote from: Squirrel698 on June 15, 2010, 02:07:50 PMI believe even back when I was 13 or so I was impressed with the sexuality and power of Rhett Butler. I wanted to be him. I wanted to emulate him. Learning everything I could about the story was my way of getting closer to that without having to define it.
This makes total sense. For me it was Star Wars. Luckily enough that's seen as a traditionally male obsession, but I'm sure most everybody is convinced that I am infatuated with Luke Skywalker, when actually I want to
be him. This is harder to explain to a non-TS person than one might imagine. (Actually, as evidenced by this thread it's hard to explain TS issues in general to non-TS people...) After I bought a new DVD set and was drooling over it, I had the following conversation with my neighbor:
Me: Look! It's so awesome! ;D
Her: Do you think Luke is hot?
Me: What?
Her: Luke. Do you think he's hot?
Me: No... He's awesome and he's my hero.
Her: So you do think he's hot.
Me: No, I want to be him.
Her: Because he's hot?
Me: -Facepalm-
Farm Boy - I had the same problem with my parents (with both Luke in Star Wars and Wes Crusher on Star Trek). It doesn't help that I sometimes have trouble myself sorting out the guys I want to be from the guys I want to be with.
Quote from: kyril on June 15, 2010, 02:52:52 PMIt doesn't help that I sometimes have trouble myself sorting out the guys I want to be from the guys I want to be with.
Me too. This conversation took place years ago before I was even attracted to anybody in that way, so at the time I figured that what I felt must be 'thinking somebody was hot' although I still wouldn't say it because it didn't seem right. Since then I've gotten better at recognizing the difference, though.
Totally. I mostly had girls on my walls, but any guys who were up there were ones I wanted to be like. It's really confusing at the time.
I think it's annoying that people expect our pasts to be just like any cis guys and if its not, we're not valid. We are different. We were raised completely differently, with society trying to make us girls, so of course we expressed and explored stuff completely differently. I think that's ok. It doesn't make us any less male.
Quote from: LucienOctopus on June 14, 2010, 08:32:01 PM
So, cisgendered folk, then? ;P
I don't think its as simple as just cisgendered folk. I think the OP means cisgendered folk with no background knowledge of trans folk and a very socially defined ideal of gender.
I am pretty amazed by the popularity of BJDs on here. I used to have one, a DoD Lahoo called Kira. But then I had to sell him cos I needed the money (for clothes lol) but I really would like to have another one in the future!
Quote from: Alessandro on June 15, 2010, 05:53:02 PM
I don't think its as simple as just cisgendered folk. I think the OP means cisgendered folk with no background knowledge of trans folk and a very socially defined ideal of gender.
Exactly! I did the post in a moment of annoyance at work so not always that clear. Not just cisgendered folk can think that way either, some trans people can be pretty stuck in narrow definitions of male and female too.
Ahhhh, okay. Well that makes sense. :)
Gee, I wonder if I liked gone with the wind?
Quote from: LordKAT on June 15, 2010, 06:44:48 PM
Gee, I wonder if I liked gone with the wind?
:D I was expecting you to stop by at some point
Ye well my fem interests aren't worth mentioning. mainly because I don't know what they are.
Quote from: kyril on June 15, 2010, 02:52:52 PM
Farm Boy - I had the same problem with my parents (with both Luke in Star Wars and Wes Crusher on Star Trek). It doesn't help that I sometimes have trouble myself sorting out the guys I want to be from the guys I want to be with.
I had that problem back when I was like 13-- I had the biggest "crush" (at least, that was the best word I could come up with at the time to describe the feeling) on the character Rei, from
Beyblade of all things. I was
obsessed-- I drew him, I roleplayed him, I wrote about him... but I always paired him with his canon girlfriend from the show (Mao), not with myself. And I always related better to Rei than to his girlfriend. I always knew there was something out of the ordinary about that obsession, but it took almost 5 years after that obsession faded away for me to figure out I had wanted to
be Rei instead of be
with him. XD
...in retrospect, I'm not sure I wanted to BE a rather one-dimensional character from a stupid anime about shooting enchanted tops at each other. But whatever-- I was an 8th grader.
Quote from: Crow on June 15, 2010, 07:20:00 PM
I had that problem back when I was like 13-- I had the biggest "crush" (at least, that was the best word I could come up with at the time to describe the feeling) on the character Rei, from Beyblade of all things. I was obsessed-- I drew him, I roleplayed him, I wrote about him... but I always paired him with his canon girlfriend from the show (Mao), not with myself. And I always related better to Rei than to his girlfriend. I always knew there was something out of the ordinary about that obsession, but it took almost 5 years after that obsession faded away for me to figure out I had wanted to be Rei instead of be with him. XD
...in retrospect, I'm not sure I wanted to BE a rather one-dimensional character from a stupid anime about shooting enchanted tops at each other. But whatever-- I was an 8th grader.
OMG this is amazing, I used to like Rei too. But I always paired him with Kai! I kinda wanted to be him too, I always found that with yaoi though, I didn't just like it I wanted to be one of those guys with one of the other guys. What a confusing time *gets headache*
I used to read a lot of Buffy the Vampire Slayer slash, mostly Angel/Spike and wish I was part of it. I first discovered it by accident and read this story which blew my represso catholic brain at the time. I'd lie in bed at night and imagine myself as a hot vampire guy being dominated etc etc... oh dear. Yes, teen years were confuzzled.
And lol, beyblades! Awesome.
Ah - never really got into anime, it was always flesh-and-blood guys for me. Which made it harder to figure out what the feelings were, since the hormones started firing for both groups.
I decided eventually that if I was intensely obsessed with a precocious nerdy boyish-looking Western European with a savior complex, I probably wanted to be him, and if I was obsessed with a slender dark-haired cynical Eastern European or darker-skinned guy with a biting sense of humour, I probably wanted to be with him. That's a purely empirical division though, based on the fact that relationships with guys from column A are totally weird and awkward and involve an unhealthy amount of imitation and obsession on my part, whereas column B has been stable with lots of chemistry. Certainly nothing I could explain (or even be consciously aware of) as a 13-year-old watching Star Trek with my parents.
I stll haven't figured out where to file my very close friends whom I develop "crushes" on (i.e. think about a lot, want to spend far more time with, have some "falling in love" symptoms minus the sex/romance angle) as the friendship develops. I think that might be a third category, but I'm not sure what to call it.
My roommate always makes fun of me because I watch "Say Yes to the Dress". LOL
I'm very open about my "feminine" interests. Hell, I even squeal or get all excited when something happens that I like or I'm going somewhere or I'm having nerd-gasm related to history. I will act "girly" and I'm not at all ashamed of it.
So, if someone questions me about being male or what I identify as, I say "I identify as a gay guy stuck in a girl's body" and this--for some reason--seems to satisfy them, but I'll also proceed to explain gender more to them and that, just because someone likes "feminine" things, doesn't mean they're not male.
I really don't have all that many feminine interests to need to explain. There are a few, of course, and if my masculinity is called into question because I happen to adore flowers and chocolate, I just say that those things are a personal preference not based on my gender. What really gets me though is when I'm accused of not being "manly" enough because I don't follow male stereotypes. For instance,I had an ex tell me that if I 'wanted to be a man', then I would have to learn to appreciate farting contests and crap like that.
Although I do have to attribute my girly giggling and gossip to having my fabulousness showing. :p