Hi Everybody!
This is my first topic and English is not my mother tongue...so please be gentle with me.
A few words about myself: I'm from Europe, I'm an MTF transsexual but I'm not transitioning. I'm a lesbian living in a male body. I'm also "out".
I'm a so-called "non-homosexual transsexual", but I consider myself a woman. I do not find the "non-homosexual transsexual" label disturbing because it reflects the current state of my body which is a male one. The fact that I find this body and the male gender role uncomfortable is another problem in my opinion.
I was shocked to experience in some TS chat rooms the intolerance of some transsexuals (luckily the minority, but an aggressive one). When I shared my doubts and fears about my real gender I was rejected and silenced which really hurt me.
I find curious that some transsexuals cannot even bear to hear any other theory about our state that "we are REAL women and shut up".
I suppose it is the result of rejection and intolerance emanating from society. But I find this TS intolerance disturbing and not at all feminine.
After spending a lot of time talking about transsexuality with cisgender women they pointed out some very important differences (and I'm talking about "non-homosexual transsexuals").
These differences are the following:
1.) a post-op transsexual woman still won't have the XX sex chromosome. Not even intersexuals are really females according to this distinction. It means, that TS women can reproduce only as males, but we cannot reproduce as "normal" females, even if we will have an uterus. So in the biological sense we cannot fulfill the evolutionary purpose of the female sex.
2.) a pre-op (non-homosexual!) transsexual woman has in average a more aggressive, logical, spatial type thinking than the average cisgender female. There are also some - statistically gender atypical - interests like not only using but loving and repairing computers, cars, weapons, loving action, battles, wars, power, sports etc.. These are 'real' interests, so it cannot be explained by the pressures of society.
3.) cisgender women find it very curious that they have no clue about who can be a pre-op (non-homosexual) transsexual. According to them transsexuals show no signs of unusual femininity pre-op or pre-transitioning. On the other side they can usually suspect if someone is gay.
So my theory is the following:
1.) (non-homosexual) transsexuals are the product of a special in-utero development.
2.) transsexualism has a neurobiological origin and cannot be cured, because transsexualism is hardwired in the brain.
3.) transsexualism is not a disease, because being (partly) female is not an illness
4.) transsexuals have a partly female brain, which contains a feminine body image, and can contain feminine social, aesthetic, emotional and sexual skills and instincts.
5.) transsexualism is mainly an innate feminine body image, as a neurobiological self-expectation: there can be no transsexuality without the feeling of feminine body image. Other feminine traits may vary amongst individual transsexuals.
6.) strong fetishists (crossdressers, ->-bleeped-<-cs etc.) or feminine males, without an innate and not erection-oriented feminine body image are not transsexuals.
I hope you won't kill me for saying these...
Quote from: anna_MTF on July 31, 2010, 02:01:32 AM
1.) a post-op transsexual woman still won't have the XX sex chromosome.
Oh, no! Not the old chromosome red herring again?
Have you had your chromosomes checked lately?
Did you check the chromosomes of that nice old lady that sells you stuff at the corner store?
Have you double-checked the chromosomes of your parents? Perhaps you were adopted?
Quote from: anna_MTF on July 31, 2010, 02:01:32 AM
These differences are the following:
1.) a post-op transsexual woman still won't have the XX sex chromosome. Not even intersexuals are really females according to this distinction. It means, that TS women can reproduce only as males, but we cannot reproduce as "normal" females, even if we will have an uterus. So in the biological sense we cannot fulfill the evolutionary purpose of the female sex.
2.) a pre-op (non-homosexual!) transsexual woman has in average a more aggressive, logical, spatial type thinking than the average cisgender female. There are also some - statistically gender atypical - interests like not only using but loving and repairing computers, cars, weapons, loving action, battles, wars, power, sports etc.. These are 'real' interests, so it cannot be explained by the pressures of society.
3.) cisgender women find it very curious that they have no clue about who can be a pre-op (non-homosexual) transsexual. According to them transsexuals show no signs of unusual femininity pre-op or pre-transitioning. On the other side they can usually suspect if someone is gay.
Hmm, my thoughts are as follows:
1) Firstly, chromosomes don't mean a lot.. There are any number of men and women who have variations on the "accepted" XX and XY combos.. Where does a cismale with a XYX or XX combo fit in your theory? Or a cisfemale with a XY or XXY combo?
2) Can we leave the strereotypes at the door? I've known cisfemales who were in to all those things.. I used to
pretend interest in those sorts of things and do enjoy computer related stuff still. I also have always enjoyed "traditional" female activities such as sewing, needlework, cooking.. Oh, and SHOPPING! I think it has more to do with whether a person is left or right brained..
3) They probably don't acknowledge that a "man" could possibly be TG. I've always had far better friendships with cisfemales then any cismale I've met.. Did they pick me as gay? Yes, but that's the image I've been projecting for the last 20 years..
Quote from: anna_MTF on July 31, 2010, 02:01:32 AM
So my theory is the following:
1.) (non-homosexual) transsexuals are the product of a special in-utero development.
2.) transsexualism has a neurobiological origin and cannot be cured, because transsexualism is hardwired in the brain.
3.) transsexualism is not a disease, because being (partly) female is not an illness
4.) transsexuals have a partly female brain, which contains a feminine body image, and can contain feminine social, aesthetic, emotional and sexual skills and instincts.
5.) transsexualism is mainly an innate feminine body image, as a neurobiological self-expectation: there can be no transsexuality without the feeling of feminine body image. Other feminine traits may vary amongst individual transsexuals.
6.) strong fetishists (crossdressers, ->-bleeped-<-cs etc.) or feminine males, without an innate and not erection-oriented feminine body image are not transsexuals.
I hope you won't kill me for saying these...
So to sum up your theory:
We're transgendered due to a mix up or issue during foetal development..
So we're really no different to people with Austism, Aspergers or other birth "defects". Excuse me a moment whilst I go and throw up..
Hi!
I really don't know how can it be a red herring, when we are talking about the difference between the female sex and female gender.
All I'm saying is that the female gender can exist in a human with a male sex. If you have female gender you don't necessarily have female sex.
Cisgender females produce gametes or eggs with one type of chromosome, the X chromosome.
But we should remember that cisgender women carry both their father's and their mother's X chromosomes.
Transsexual women only carry their mothers X chromosomes (If they are XY or XYY).
So it is simply impossible to maintain a healthy genome with two XY chromosomes (male and transsexual female).
Let me show, what can chromosomal abnormalities cause:
XXY, XXYY, XXXY * male * Klinefelter syndrome * sterility, small testicles, breast enlargement
XYY * male * XYY syndrome * normal male traits
XO * female * Turner syndrome * sex organs don't mature at adolescence, sterility, short stature
XXX * female * Trisomy X * tall stature, learning disabilities, limited fertility
Source:
http://biology.about.com/od/basicgenetics/a/aa110504a.htm (http://biology.about.com/od/basicgenetics/a/aa110504a.htm)
So my point is that gender is not a consumer (luxury) product in evolution, it has a purpose.
Does our (transsexual women's) gender have an evolutionary purpose?
Post Merge: July 31, 2010, 09:26:19 AM
QuoteSo we're really no different to people with Austism, Aspergers or other birth "defects". Excuse me a moment whilst I go and throw up..
Please, read my post more carefully.
I wrote the following:
Quote3.) transsexualism is not a disease, because being (partly) female is not an illness
Please, no more "straw man" and "appeal to emotion" fallacies.
Make up your mind.. It's either a disease or an evolutionary hiccup.. I notice you also ignored my other points..
Your gender identity is defined by how/what you think.. Your gender is defined physically.. Given the diversity that exists in humans, why should it be a surprise that sometimes these don't match?
anna
I can see that you're attempting to annalyse the issue. That much is good. We should all try to understand any issues.
You're not really making yourself very clear though. I suspect, there are language problems. Though your command of English is good, when you start to get into complicated topics, problems can show up.
For most of us here, the issue seems to rest upon coming to terms with ourselves and how we will deal with society.
Attempting to look at the more logical aspects will be interesting, I'm sure. But I have to say, I'm really not clear about what it is you're saying.
Post Merge: July 31, 2010, 09:39:46 AM
Quote from: kelly_aus on July 31, 2010, 09:33:34 AM
Make up your mind.. It's either a disease or an evolutionary hiccup.. I notice you also ignored my other points..
I don't personally accept either.
People like us have been recorded throughout history. That demonstrates that the various traits are persistant in the human population.
I cannot accept that such traits, which would normally be problematic to the survival of a species can persist unless they play an important part in huan survival.
My own belief, is that, in pre-civilisation time, (99% of human existance), people like us played an important role in human society.
Kelly_au,
First of all I think this is not an evolutionary process, because it is quite rare (1 in 30000).
We are accidents.
We are not sick, we have no disease, we are accidents.
We are rare and special and that's it.
Let me see your other replies:
Quote2) Can we leave the strereotypes at the door? I've known cisfemales who were in to all those things.. I used to pretend interest in those sorts of things and do enjoy computer related stuff still. I also have always enjoyed "traditional" female activities such as sewing, needlework, cooking.. Oh, and SHOPPING! I think it has more to do with whether a person is left or right brained..
We can't leave stereotypes at the door because they are mostly true - statistically. I think it is astonishing that we can really believe that everybody is like us - it is simply not true! The vast majority of people are heterosexual cisgender people. They are "normal" and we are "abnormal". Sad but true.
Please look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZriLOP8u-8# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZriLOP8u-8#)
Digit ratio is the result of the same type of hormonal changes which cause transsexuality in my opinion.
Quote3) They probably don't acknowledge that a "man" could possibly be TG. I've always had far better friendships with cisfemales then any cismale I've met.. Did they pick me as gay? Yes, but that's the image I've been projecting for the last 20 years..
I have no male friends at all, only female friends. They don't pick me as gay.
So? What is your point?
Quote from: perlita85 on July 31, 2010, 09:47:53 AM
Oh, Honey,
You do not have to show me anything, you see sweetie, I have been teaching and doing research on the biological basis of GID for over 20 years.
The gene(s) that causes the neuro-anatomical changes leading to GID are not in any specific evolutionary pressure per se. If they were they (the genes) and the associated behaviors would have been eliminated from the gene poll thousands of years ago. Homosexuality, GID (or more medically appropriate Gender Identity Incongruity GII), and other behavior incongruence such as "borderline personality disorder" for example, are but the result of random mutation in your genes, nothing less nothing more.
That's probably the best explanation I've some across..
Quote from: anna_MTF on July 31, 2010, 09:53:29 AM
Kelly_au,
First of all I think this is not an evolutionary process, because it is quite rare (1 in 30000).
We are accidents.
We are not sick, we have no disease, we are accidents.
We are rare and special and that's it.
Based on your stats, that means there are 228643 transpeople on the planet, based on 2009 population data.. Personally, I don't think that number is high enough..
Quote from: anna_MTF on July 31, 2010, 09:53:29 AM
Let me see your other replies:
We can't leave stereotypes at the door because they are mostly true - statistically. I think it is astonishing that we can really believe that everybody is like us - it is simply not true! The vast majority of people are heterosexual cisgender people. They are "normal" and we are "abnormal". Sad but true.
I never claimed to meet societal norms, but I object to being termed abnormal..
Quote from: anna_MTF on July 31, 2010, 09:53:29 AM
Please look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZriLOP8u-8# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZriLOP8u-8#)
Digit ratio is the result of the same type of hormonal changes which cause transsexuality in my opinion.
Hmm, one race is not a statistically worthwhile sample. Care to point me to a published, peer reviewed article?
Quote from: anna_MTF on July 31, 2010, 09:53:29 AM
I have no male friends at all, only female friends. They don't pick me as gay.
So? What is your point?
My point is my cisfemale friends saw my feminine traits and assumed they were due to my projected "gay" image.. The 2 cisfemale friends I've "come out" to expressed no surprise at all, one actually commented that she had wondered...
QuoteOh, Honey,
You do not have to show me anything, you see sweetie, I have been teaching and doing research on the biological basis of GID for over 20 years.
The gene(s) that causes the neuro-anatomical changes leading to GID are not in any specific evolutionary pressure per se. If they were they (the genes) and the associated behaviors would have been eliminated from the gene poll thousands of years ago. Homosexuality, GID (or more medically appropriate Gender Identity Incongruity GII), and other behavior incongruence such as "borderline personality disorder" for example, are but the result of random mutation in your genes, nothing less nothing more.
Whoa, that hurts. But really. It sucks to be a TS female when all we want is acceptance and we get a passive-aggressive kick from our sisters.
But I got used to it: remember, I'm in a male body? Men are actively aggressive. But I survived high school. University was way better by the way.
Anyway.
It is all good and spectacular that you have knowledge. I respect that.
So, using that knowledge would you be so kind to write a relevant reply?
We were at the chromosomes I think.
Just for interests sake.. Due to genetic issues in my family, I've had various testing done.. I have a perfectly "normal" set of XY chromosomes..
Dear Spacial!
Sorry for my English...it is very hard to express complex ideas in a foreign language, especially if it is a half-scientific question.
My point is: we (as transsexuals) in general are not females physiologically and we are only half-females mentally.
Only our predetermined, neurobiologically hardwired self image is 100% female.
So basically our brain makes us think we are females - but we are only partly females.
You are only applying Western societal norms.. What about the cultures where it is accepted as normal behaviour?
bad trolls amuse me <3
and i know this might destroy your little fantasy where only 'men' can be scary perverts that really just want to be seen as pretty ladies but....
where do the female to male transsexuals come in? :P
Dear Drain!
Excuse me. Are you a male? Are you talking to me?
Drain is a FTM and, like myself, wonders where he fits in your theory?
You also haven't answered why you insist on applying Western societal norms.. What about the various non-Western cultures where trangender people are accepted as "normal"?
Dear Kelly_aus!
I think we should be provided a third gender status, like the hijras.
They are (barely) accepted, but they are not normal.
Look at this:
http://www.iglhrc.org/cgi-bin/iowa/article/takeaction/resourcecenter/650.html (http://www.iglhrc.org/cgi-bin/iowa/article/takeaction/resourcecenter/650.html)
Please do not think that the romantic "perfect and holy indigenous people" idea is true.
People are transphobic everywhere - and probably it has an evolutionary purpose.
It's purpose is basically to kill us - and so redirect resources to heterosexuals who can reproduce more efficiently.
It is primitive and in civilisation we must have an another alternative.
Post Merge: July 31, 2010, 11:16:27 AM
Dear Drain!
The existence of FTMs proves my point even better than MTFs.
What I'm saying is that being TS is not a perversion, it has nothing to do with fetishes.
It is an accident in the uterus. The results are the following: the self-image (body image, social roles, and sometimes sexuality) of the brain is of the opposing gender.
I think you must feel that your body and your treatment as a female is wrong. Your brain feels that something is not right.
It is because you have a hardwired self image as a male, both socially, mentally and probably sexually.
Am I wrong?
Sadly, you appear to have some quite rigid ideas on this topic and are not amenable to a proper scientific or sociological debate, so I'll bow out at this point.
Without an intense, long term scientific study this discussion is largely moot anyway.
While I don't completely agree with anyone's scientific opinions or explanations as to how or why we are who we are, I can definitely appreciate the information and allow myself to at least consider it's validity without completely rejecting it on first-read. I don't think we will ever truly know exactly what happens to "cause" transsexuality. We are flawed human beings, and we simply are not capable of seeing absolutely everything or thinking of absolutely everything, or for that matter knowing absolutely everything, although generally as a species we do seem to think we have this universe pretty well figured out. If so, we would have cured things like cancer, diabetes, MS, autism, etc. For many things there is just no way of curing them, or for knowing everything about them, including how it happens. So although I don't agree with everything you are saying Anna, I do think at least some of your theories have merit. Mainly, you just need to learn to word and phrase things better because some (actually many) things are touchy subjects.
Also, you are not being attacked by Drain, so there's no need to overreact. He is a female-to-male transsexual, and was simply asking if FtM's fit into your theories because you have limited your explanations to MtF's thus far. Please try not to be so confrontational, it won't make you very popular.
Dear AprilDawn!
Thank you for your advice, you really helped me to understand the point of view of others.
I'm really sorry for my English, I know I use some words out of context or strangely.
Sorry if I hurt anyone. Sorry Drain!
Sometimes I do overreact... :icon_redface:
Post Merge: July 31, 2010, 11:39:24 AM
Dear kelly_aus!
Please name your sources, I'm willing to change my point of view.
But without sources it is harder.
We all struggle with our self-image, whether trans or not, it's just more-so with trans people, and some of the comments you made about us being "accidents" in the womb, or that we are "abnormal" isn't going to be taken very well. Thank you for apologizing though!
There are so many theories about how transsexuality happens, I just don't think we will ever know what the answer is. Also consider this: if the scientific world ever did learn what causes it, they could then in theory know how to prevent it, making US an endangered species. Man's "need" to be in control of his environment would mean the extinction of a unique anomaly, which is a pretty scary thought in my opinion. Especially since we don't really know if there might be a very important reason that we exist in the first place. This goes back to my statement about humans not knowing or seeing absolutely everything!
I would rather put my energy into promoting awareness to further the cause of acceptance in general society so that we TS people can go about living our lives without fear.
Quote from: AprilDawn on July 31, 2010, 11:45:37 AM
We all struggle with our self-image, whether trans or not, it's just more-so with trans people, and some of the comments you made about us being "accidents" in the womb, or that we are "abnormal" isn't going to be taken very well. Thank you for apologizing though!
There are so many theories about how transsexuality happens, I just don't think we will ever know what the answer is. Also consider this: if the scientific world ever did learn what causes it, they could then in theory know how to prevent it, making US an endangered species. Man's "need" to be in control of his environment would mean the extinction of a unique anomaly, which is a pretty scary thought in my opinion. Especially since we don't really know if there might be a very important reason that we exist in the first place. This goes back to my statement about humans not knowing or seeing absolutely everything!
I would rather put my energy into promoting awareness to further the cause of acceptance in general society so that we TS people can go about living our lives without fear.
You are no more an accedent than I, & I am not!
Perhaps there is much lost in translation for the OP, what I see apearing as a common thread for them is that they are hung up on sexuality.
This has very little to do with the matter of trans gendered people IMO, what makes a person a man or woman is not what they have between thier legs or what they want to do with said locational component.
Nore does the matter of being able to give seed or grow an egg define things truely some biological women I have knowen are more male IMO than female.
Perhapse the defining thing (please forgive such a slight term "as it may be taken for") is the core spirit or energy... I truely dont know but I hope to find out one day.
Any life that has survived & has not opressed has a chance of being right.
Thank you Memy, I agree. I think the more we try to understand and dig deeper, the more we forget we are talking about human beings, who are as unique as snowflakes. We are all so different in ways big or small, some may even be immeasurable, so trying to understand seems a nearly impossible venture. I'd rather just accept that "I exist, therefore I am."
An interesting thing: I was never kicked out because of presenting false facts, or because I used false logic or unnamed sources...
Yes, maybe I'm hard to tolerate (sorry, it's my "in your face" style) but what about my message?
Was it my message or my style that created the response I got?
Post Merge: July 31, 2010, 02:12:54 PM
One other thing: I tried to suppress my transsexuality but it cannot be suppressed. I lost. It makes me angry. And I also fear what will happen if it consumes me. It makes (made) my life a living hell.
When I first read this last night, I chose not to respond immediately because I knew I would come off as offensive and as attacking you, rather than attacking your idea. I'm going to give it a shot again and will do my best.
Many people here have brought up many valid points but what Id like to ask is....
Why are you following the unaccepted mostly debunked theories of homosexual and non homosexual transsexuals. Using that theory right there does not allow for the existence of FTM's which is where/why drain comes in asking how he can exist according to the theories your putting forth. Also the 1 in 30,000 is a very old number based off of those who had GRS while following what ever standards of care were in place at the time (aka, a minority of the people transitioning)
The homosexual and non homosexual transsexual theories are disturbing to say the least. Completely insulting if you want the truth. Explain then how it is, many MtF's start off straight pre transition and stay straight post transition. Example I was married to a woman pre transition but I like men post transition.
Some of your points I do agree with. Some I do not. I will give some examples.
NOT: 1.) a post-op transsexual woman still won't have the XX sex chromosome. Not even intersexuals are really females according to this distinction. It means, that TS women can reproduce only as males, but we cannot reproduce as "normal" females, even if we will have an uterus. So in the biological sense we cannot fulfill the evolutionary purpose of the female sex.
In this case I take it personal, I am IS and TS... as others have pointed out chromosomes matter far less than previously believed... Actually if I remember correctly scientists have discovered the proverbial switch that makes the difference between males and females and have even successfully hit the switch while experimenting. I have female internal organs, they may or may not work, I'll never know because there not hooked up to anything. On the "male" side I was deemed completely sterile before transitioning. This was devastating. Try prodding an IS person in public and claim they are not a full male or female because they cannot breed and I guarantee you will not be happy with the result.
2.) a pre-op (non-homosexual!) transsexual woman has in average a more aggressive, logical, spatial type thinking than the average cisgender female. There are also some - statistically gender atypical - interests like not only using but loving and repairing computers, cars, weapons, loving action, battles, wars, power, sports etc.. These are 'real' interests, so it cannot be explained by the pressures of society.
Hey... Just because some TS's enjoy things that are generalized parts of the other gender doesn't make them different. There are many women and men out there who enjoy the same sort of things. This is just an assumption. My personality makes me just like my mother :P
3.) cisgender women find it very curious that they have no clue about who can be a pre-op (non-homosexual) transsexual. According to them transsexuals show no signs of unusual femininity pre-op or pre-transitioning. On the other side they can usually suspect if someone is gay.
Well, aside from jeers while in school, noone ever thought I was gay. BUT everyone knew something was up. Very few people were surprised when I came out.
I'm wishy washy on these points. Kind of sort of agree yet not completely. They leave room for improvement and do not leave room for any who do not fit into them.
1.) (non-homosexual) transsexuals are the product of a special in-utero development.
Ummm, what about your so called homosexual transsexuals, and what about FTM's and what about those who fit into the category of none of the above?
2.) transsexualism has a neurobiological origin and cannot be cured, because transsexualism is hardwired in the brain.
Maybe
3.) transsexualism is not a disease, because being (partly) female is not an illness
True IMHO
4.) transsexuals have a partly female brain, which contains a feminine body image, and can contain feminine social, aesthetic, emotional and sexual skills and instincts.
What if we have a wholly female brain, many studies show this.
5.) transsexualism is mainly an innate feminine body image, as a neurobiological self-expectation: there can be no transsexuality without the feeling of feminine body image. Other feminine traits may vary amongst individual transsexuals.
Okay... what about FTM's
And finally...
6.) strong fetishists (crossdressers, ->-bleeped-<-cs etc.) or feminine males, without an innate and not erection-oriented feminine body image are not transsexuals.
I don't believe in Autogyniphiles as a form of transsexuality anyways. I will keep my opinion of them to myself in this forum... Over all this is a true statement and I wish doctors and the media would get the point. I'll add drag queens to the list just for my own sake :) I do not however understand how what you mean by not erection oriented are not transsexuals... You mean if I didn't get it up at the thought of transition I'm not TS?
Dear LynnER!
Thank you for your reply. I wish that it was the first one I got. (Am I "in your face" again? Oh no! Sorry! But it is me!)
You wrote:
QuoteWhen I first read this last night, I chose not to respond immediately because I knew I would come off as offensive and as attacking you, rather than attacking your idea. I'm going to give it a shot again and will do my best.
Thank you.
QuoteWhy are you following the unaccepted mostly debunked theories of homosexual and non homosexual transsexuals. Using that theory right there does not allow for the existence of FTM's which is where/why drain comes in asking how he can exist according to the theories your putting forth.
OK. I don't think it is a debunked theory. Let's be honest: ->-bleeped-<- exists. Some can lie to a psychologist or a counsellor, but it's an existing phenomenon.
And it exists only amongst "non-homosexual" MTFs.
Why did I start my post with this? Because I'm a "non-homosexual" MTF, so I must build from my personal experiences! I wanted to inform you about my personal point of view!
What I tried to do was use deduction in my personal case. And it worked for me.
This was the sole reason why I started with the distinction of "non-homosexual" MTF.
I tried to find the core element of my own transsexuality.
So my real direction was that it isn't important that you are "homosexual" or "non-homosexual", MTF or FTM, these are not important questions (but I had to show what I experience as a TS).
What common ground remains THAT IS transsexuality in itself! OK, maybe it wasn't very clear from the beginning...Sorry for that!
My argument was/is that transsexuality is
an inner, hardwired self image of the brain, which is of the opposing sex. Yes, I use "sex", because I think transsexuals have the brain part responsible for self image of the opposing SEX.
It is a physiological, neurobiological phenomenon, not a mental or psychological problem in my opinion.
In my opinion transsexuality develops because of hormonal effects (which can be triggered by genetic mutations) in the uterus.
It can explain all cases of transsexuality in my opinion. It is not fetish, sex or gender oriented.
It is universal amongst all transsexuals in my opinion.
QuoteAlso the 1 in 30,000 is a very old number based off of those who had GRS while following what ever standards of care were in place at the time (aka, a minority of the people transitioning)
I think there are documented cases when crossdressers, ->-bleeped-<-cs, stigmatophiliacs, other fetishists think they are TS, but after SRS they cannot live a happy life.
I also think that in a few cases "happiness" means simply the end of the intense sexual paraphilia in "alleged" MTFs. I can imagine that for some people it is better to become a "woman" than an eunuch, it makes more sense. And SRS stops the paraphilia obviously.
I don't want to hurt those people and I think they should be treated as they want to be treated, but being TS is not about strong fetishes in my opinion.
Of course being TS can cause "fetishes", but the core "self image" diagnosis must stand.
So I don't really know that without defining transsexuality how can we really tell the numbers.
The number of SRS is the only practical guideline in my opinion. I can see of course that in theory it must be lower than the real number of transsexuals, some of whom can never get SRS.
QuoteThe homosexual and non homosexual transsexual theories are disturbing to say the least. Completely insulting if you want the truth. Explain then how it is, many MtF's start off straight pre transition and stay straight post transition. Example I was married to a woman pre transition but I like men post transition.
You are right of course. Sexual orientation is not important after SRS. But it is important
before SRS.Why? Because in "non-homosexual" transsexuals
there is a chance that they are not transsexuals at all, only have a paraphilia (like crossdressing).
Source:
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html#Sandra (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html#Sandra)
"Homosexual" (pre-op) transsexuals have no ->-bleeped-<- and no sexual arousal from crossdressing.
In their case it is a much more clearer picture.
QuoteIn this case I take it personal, I am IS and TS... as others have pointed out chromosomes matter far less than previously believed... Actually if I remember correctly scientists have discovered the proverbial switch that makes the difference between males and females and have even successfully hit the switch while experimenting. I have female internal organs, they may or may not work, I'll never know because there not hooked up to anything. On the "male" side I was deemed completely sterile before transitioning. This was devastating. Try prodding an IS person in public and claim they are not a full male or female because they cannot breed and I guarantee you will not be happy with the result.
I have to say that I wasn't making fun of this. I merely stated the facts.
I would rather be a cisgender male or a cisgender female (I would opt for that) but I'm a TS.
It sucks, face it. I think "political correctness" starts to get ridiculous in some cases.
We are not children, we can handle this situation. It hurts, but life cannot be about building "dream worlds".
Political correctness is a kind of mental drug which clouds our judgement and we can lost touch with reality quickly, living in a lie, in a luxury, selfish, childish, weak bubble.
Was I "in your face" again? Again, sorry, but this is my opinion.
QuoteHey... Just because some TS's enjoy things that are generalized parts of the other gender doesn't make them different. There are many women and men out there who enjoy the same sort of things. This is just an assumption. My personality makes me just like my mother :P
Cisgender women see it otherwise. They can see the numbers, the average. They know that we are chimeras, not average cisgender women. Of course after SRS it is possible to fit in, but in most cases post-op transsexuals are physiologically and mentally a little bit different and it sometimes can be "read" by other women (even if they behave otherwise and accept the post-op trans woman). I showed videos of post-op TS women to cisgender women and they said that they can see the difference in the majority of the cases. It is the main reason I don't want to transition by the way.
QuoteWell, aside from jeers while in school, noone ever thought I was gay. BUT everyone knew something was up. Very few people were surprised when I came out.
I'm wishy washy on these points. Kind of sort of agree yet not completely. They leave room for improvement and do not leave room for any who do not fit into them.
Ok, I see. By the way, these are not my ideas: I collected them from cisgender women.
These are not politically correct views, these are "in your face" honest opinions.
Quote1.) (non-homosexual) transsexuals are the product of a special in-utero development.
Ummm, what about your so called homosexual transsexuals, and what about FTM's and what about those who fit into the category of none of the above?
My post really was about "my kind" of TS, I didn't really want to talk about those who are not like me. I made it clear in my opinion that I'm not talking about other types of TSs.
But I think in other TS cases there must be the same explanation.
Did you hear about this?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7877774/Female-mice-can-be-turned-lesbian-by-deleting-gene.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/7877774/Female-mice-can-be-turned-lesbian-by-deleting-gene.html)
"Researchers found that disabling the FucM gene – which influences the levels of oestrogen to which the brain is exposed – caused the mice to behave as if they were male as they grew up."
I think I do not need to say more. Sexual orientation and sexual identity are different, but the "special" development of the brain is the same in both cases.
Transsexuality must be a genetically caused hormonal development in the uterus in my opinion.
QuoteWhat if we have a wholly female brain, many studies show this.
There are a few scientific proofs that TSs have a PARTLY female brain.
Like this:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034 (http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034)
But it is clear, that we don't have a full female brain (size etc.)..
Quote5.) transsexualism is mainly an innate feminine body image, as a neurobiological self-expectation: there can be no transsexuality without the feeling of feminine body image. Other feminine traits may vary amongst individual transsexuals.
Okay... what about FTM's
The same for them. Only they have the "innate masculine body image".
What is the problem?
QuoteAnd finally...
6.) strong fetishists (crossdressers, ->-bleeped-<-cs etc.) or feminine males, without an innate and not erection-oriented feminine body image are not transsexuals.
I don't believe in Autogyniphiles as a form of transsexuality anyways. I will keep my opinion of them to myself in this forum... Over all this is a true statement and I wish doctors and the media would get the point. I'll add drag queens to the list just for my own sake :) I do not however understand how what you mean by not erection oriented are not transsexuals... You mean if I didn't get it up at the thought of transition I'm not TS?
Well, what I meant was that a "non-homosexual" TS can get an erection from the mental image of herself as a woman, because her sexual orientation before SRS is "non-homosexual". The erection is natural in that case. You see a pretty woman and you get an erection.
But there is a difference between that and those, who feel themselves as women
only when they are sexually aroused in a male way.
A TS must feel feminine WITHOUT an erection even before SRS, even before HRT in my opinion.
It is about an inner self image and not about clothes fetishes, latex or any kind of other fetish.
Fetishes are objects. Fetishists like objects, they like objectify themselves, sometimes imagining themselves as women.
Transsexualism is an inner body image and behavioral and emotional pressure which is NOT about sexual orientation or excitement (it can be part of transsexuality, but not the core of it).
You must feel yourself transsexual without sexual excitement, on a daily bases in my opinion.
Well, lets get "in your face"
When I started watching this thread and your words, I kept wondering if the only thing you wanted with all this discussion was to bring justification to your point of view. And with that, so you would feel better with how things are for you now.
And to claim you are... a woman.
Which you ARE NOT! Yes, "in your face" you consider yourself a woman? How can you say that when you dont live as one? Or you arent treated as one, and just plainly be one and living as one in this society. Simply put, you arent a woman at least not yet.
Your gender might be female, and thats something I wont put in doubt because I simply dont know you. And well, thats something very personal that only you can say which its your gender. But being a woman or a man are arbitrary society construct that change depending on the culture and/or location.
I dont deny your right to be yourself. Actually, I would say finding a place where you are comfortable in your own skin its like the greatest achievement that transition can bring. However, I keep wondering like I say at the start of my reply:
Have you asked yourself if you are only justifying all this by over analyzing and moving things and ideas to suit your point of view?
anna
Please do feel you need to apologise to me. I don't have any problems with yours or any other points of view. It's just that I was having a little difficulity following what they are. :)
Quote from: perlita85 on July 31, 2010, 09:47:53 AM
Oh, Honey,
You do not have to show me anything, you see sweetie, I have been teaching and doing research on the biological basis of GID for over 20 years.
The gene(s) that causes the neuro-anatomical changes leading to GID are not in any specific evolutionary pressure per se. If they were they (the genes) and the associated behaviors would have been eliminated from the gene poll thousands of years ago. Homosexuality, GID (or more medically appropriate Gender Identity Incongruity GII), and other behavior incongruence such as "borderline personality disorder" for example, are but the result of random mutation in your genes, nothing less nothing more.
Having re-read this thread, in particular, the earlier posts, I now realise that perlita's post, above was not directed toward me at all.
Mt response was based upon the assumption that it was in reply to my own earlier post.
I would like to apologise to perlita and to anna for jumping the gun here.
I've deleted my response.
Dear Zelane!
QuoteWell, lets get "in your face"
Thanks. I like honesty.
QuoteWhen I started watching this thread and your words, I kept wondering if the only thing you wanted with all this discussion was to bring justification to your point of view. And with that, so you would feel better with how things are for you now.
I'm sure this is the case, you are right.
QuoteAnd to claim you are... a woman. Which you ARE NOT! Yes, "in your face" you consider yourself a woman? How can you say that when you dont live as one? Or you arent treated as one, and just plainly be one and living as one in this society. Simply put, you arent a woman at least not yet.
Absolutely true. This is what I'm talking about. I'm a TS, not a woman. I only feel myself like a woman, but I'm not one! Only my brain keeps telling me I'm a woman!
Thank God you understood this!
QuoteYour gender might be female, and thats something I wont put in doubt because I simply dont know you. And well, thats something very personal that only you can say which its your gender. But being a woman or a man are arbitrary society construct that change depending on the culture and/or location.
Well, if it is arbitrary, then why should any TS get SRS? Is it cultural to have a vagina? I thought it has a biological function in cisgender women.
In my opinion you can live like a woman without SRS. But then why would you want to go through SRS?
QuoteI dont deny your right to be yourself. Actually, I would say finding a place where you are comfortable in your own skin its like the greatest achievement that transition can bring. However, I keep wondering like I say at the start of my reply: Have you asked yourself if you are only justifying all this by over analyzing and moving things and ideas to suit your point of view?
No, not really. I would accept any theory if it is true.
My problem is that a lot of TSs can't really understand our condition.
I know my analytical and logical style is not at all feminine. I know it.
I try to silence my emotions and instincts.
I try to be logical and factual.
This is masochistic and sometimes it is really very hard.
But I think the truth is more important than personal feelings of any of us.
Or would you stop saying that the Earth is round just because it hurts the feelings of some people?
The truth is not about nice feelings and having a good time in my opinion.
Quote from: anna_MTF on July 31, 2010, 09:53:29 AM
Kelly_au,
First of all I think this is not an evolutionary process, because it is quite rare (1 in 30000).
We are accidents.
We are not sick, we have no disease, we are accidents.
We are rare and special and that's it.
Let me see your other replies:
We can't leave stereotypes at the door because they are mostly true - statistically. I think it is astonishing that we can really believe that everybody is like us - it is simply not true! The vast majority of people are heterosexual cisgender people. They are "normal" and we are "abnormal". Sad but true.
Please look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZriLOP8u-8# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZriLOP8u-8#)
Digit ratio is the result of the same type of hormonal changes which cause transsexuality in my opinion.
I have no male friends at all, only female friends. They don't pick me as gay.
So? What is your point?
I do not think for a moment becuase I am M2F that it was an accident. Transgender people is unique our brain works differently, We have the ability to live both sides of the fence, and most people that is not hardwired in the brain like ours will never understand They are set in their ways and that cannot be changed nor should we. what we should do is not steretype we all get enough of that withtout other transgenders has to stereotype. my friend said it best "Transgenders are lucky, transgenders can althought it is scary Transgenders can experience both sides male and female or female to male experiences most people would not have he guts to do that. There is a reason why we are like that. Call it a higher power or whatever. but I am having fun with my M2F, I have more friends since I am true to my self and my wife is happier that I am no longer living a lie. we all could conform to "soceity stanards" and live a lie or we can be true to ourselfs, and once your are true to your self everything falls into place, what seems scary is realy not a issue, people is amazed how easily it is for me to live full time as a female, walk in he female bathroom and has ladies saying hi in the bathroom, and for the ones that has a issue with it that is on them and their upbrining and life is way to short to deal with it. wha I think turms people off is when a Transgender forces themself on people to accept their lifesyles. that dont help. and gives other transgender a bad name. for a time Hollywood was not helping transgenders having man that looks like man wearing dresses with very deep husky voices. but even hollywood is getting better and more sensitive to transgender community. But in closing I say just be true to your self and the proccess will be easier. and have fun with this unique and rare condition it is nothing to be shamed of. I know I am haiving fun with my transformation. I am looking foward in reading replies.
Thank you perlita85.
Sorry if my posts seemed rude.
Transsexuality right now is the most important issue for me. I'm thinking about my transsexuality almost all the time.
It makes me nervous and agitated. And I don't really know the stylistic nuances of the English language.
Also I think there are some cultural differences too.
I don't really know what to do. I feel it is a lose-lose scenario whatever I choose. It makes me mad.
I feel like a caged animal.
Post Merge: August 01, 2010, 10:08:01 AM
koolstacy,
In a way I envy you.
everyone transition differently for some it is not easy for others it is easy, as for me I been living as female since I was 8 years of age.
Post Merge: August 01, 2010, 10:20:57 AM
I do wish you the best of luck on your transitioning
It is universal amongst all transsexuals in my opinion.
I don't think that anything is universal among TS persons, or anyone else, or any other group, for that matter.
Quote from: anna_MTF on August 01, 2010, 07:26:01 AM
Well, if it is arbitrary, then why should any TS get SRS? Is it cultural to have a vagina? I thought it has a biological function in cisgender women.
In my opinion you can live like a woman without SRS. But then why would you want to go through SRS?
I fully agree that a person can be a woman or a man without SRS, after all being a man or a woman are social constructs like I was saying. But if its all it takes its just to live then a lot of people who have come here would be more happier.
Im talking about how your body doesnt feel right, and even when you might not be sure why, you just feel it. And that feelings its that your body should have been different from how i is. Thats what physical transition is, to get your body to match how you feel and view yourself.
Then, for some getting some surgeries becomes something important. Like I say, being comfortable in your own skin.
As for why some get SRS, I believe its because it feels right to them (well some persons might get it for the wrong reasons, but then again to each their own)
Quote from: anna_MTF
It makes me nervous and agitated. And I don't really know the stylistic nuances of the English language.
/quote]
anna, your command of English is fine.
The reactions you are getting to your theorising is more due to people refsuing to accept the simple facts of the situation and wanting to cling to being TG rather than admitting that TS are not TG or CD or TV or GLB.
Hi Anna and welcome to this forum, and greetings back from Europe.
Now to your points:
1) The chromosome thing
Well XY women are very feminine. Okay they don't have a womb and can't have kids. But many other women are also sterile or have a dysfunctional womb, and it would seem very rude for me to tell an XY girl or a sterile girl they're not really females. XY girls just have a weird chromosome combination, otherwise they are 100% women. Same goes for XX men the other way round.
2) logical, spatial-type thinking can be trained, and many women are better at it than you would expect. When you design or sew clothes etc., this is a technology which needs a very good spatial and conceptional thinking, as much as carpenting. Sewing is thought to be a female skill, which is why sewing is not accepted as being a technology by society. People tend to say: "Women are not good at technology, but good at sewing" and that's a very stupid statement. Same goes for other stereotypically female technologies, such as cooking (=thinking in processes) etc.
Long before transition, I gave private math lessons to 2 girls age 15 who were thought to be hopeless cases and got them from a very bad mark to a good one in one year and suddenly they really understood maths. I had to explain them things in a very concrete way and with examples they could really see and touch right on the table, or with funny hilarious examples they could keep in their mind well, which nobody had ever done before. They have a very concrete (typically female?) thinking but this does not interfere with math skills, you just have to explain things differently as concrete thinkers think from the concrete to the abstract, not the other way round.
Oh, and there was this third girl who was bad in maths, and I gave her private lessons in cost accounting and used funny examples like the sadistic Italian ice-cream man selling horribly expensive chili ice-cream in hell, or the Ork retail seller who had big expenses for his business as he always ended up drunk in a pub with his Ork friends whenever he went to the wholesaler to purchase rotten fish etc. She understood the whole abstract concept with the help of these examples and memorized it well as the two stories were funny enough to keep in mind. That's what I mean with funny concrete examples for concrete thinkers.
Plus I had to get them rid of their math phobia (which they really had) plus get their own prejudice out of their mind that they are females and therefore unable to ever grasp math at all. This prejudice and the math phobia blocked them more than anything else. Plus they thought they were stupid, but they were just extreme cases of concrete creative thinkers, and it took me some time until they believed me that and got more self-confidence. Funny thing is, to them I was the living proof that girls can be very good at maths, as in maths, I always got the best marks. Of course I never outed myself as trans to them, it might have ruined all the efforts.
Many women (and men) don't use or train some of their skills when they think it's not appropriate for their gender so they end up being bad at it. Plus maybe you have more concrete and creative thinkers among women and more abstract and conceptual thinkers among men, but you just have to explain things differently for both thinking types and they'll be fine with whatever subject. There are also other types of thinkers and thinking, such as processual/linear thinkers, non-linear/network/creative thinkers, and even people who think in pictures not in words and have to translate their pictures into words when they talk and words into pictures to understand what other people say (that's me), plus all kinds of mixes.
About the aggressivity, that's the hormones plus the upbringing.
3) I knew a couple of transgendered people who showed very typical signs before coming out to me.
Now your other points:
First forget about the homosexual/non-homosexual transsexual theory. The only useful thing there is to detect false positive diagnoses for people who are not actually trans but just have a strong ->-bleeped-<- fetish so they won't transition and be miserable afterwards, but not all "non-homosexual transsexuals" fall into that category, by far not. For transsexuals, sexual orientation has not much to do with being transsexual. Plus, no word about bisexuals in that theory, so it is flawed anyway.
The interests:
People tend to develop interests for what they grew up with. There's nothing wrong with that, but it explains why transsexuals tend to have atypical interests. I have a weird and strong interest for typography and calligraphy, but then we had plenty books about that at home and my dad talked about it a lot and did a lot of beautiful calligraphy himself. My mom liked sewing and so do I. My friends liked martial arts and so do I... etc.
Oh and someone here brought up the theory that a "transsexuality gene" must be beneficial from an evolutionary point of view as otherwise we wouldn't exist. I think this is not necessarily the case. Look up sickel-cell anaemia, it is a very debilitating condition caused by genetics. But it's just a negative side product of a great mutation. If you carry only some of the genes you are healthy plus immune to malaria which is awesome. In some regions of Africa where malaria is very repanded, almost everybody has some of these genes, so humans could survive there, but sometimes they have family members with this condition. So transsexuality might as well be a (negative, neutral or positive) side-product of something else which is beneficial and much more repanded.