Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Bloody hell did it take me long to put this poll together.

The last Headcount thread was launched around three years ago (2007). I can tell you for sure that within those few years a lot of new 'labels' appeared in the Andro-sphere. I decided to include a bunch of them since it seems we have a pretty versatile community at the moment.
Of course there'll still be some folk who will feel that none of the above applies to them, but no shooting no_id for feeling left out - after all, there's always three years from now... ;)

Below a list of definitions of the options included in this poll. The definitions are based on some google searches, Emerald's AG Glossary blog entry, and my own mind & experience.

1. Androgyne: neither male or female.
2. Genderqueer: not completely male and not completely female.
3. Intergender: between male and female.
4. Bigender: both male and female at seperate occasions.
5. Trigender: both male, female and neither at seperate occasions.
6. Ambigender: both male and female.
7. Nullgender/Agender: no gender/genderless/non-gendered.
8. Neutrois: non-gendered with body dysphoria.
9. Third gender: a third gender to male and female.
10. Genderfluid: fluxuating between male and female.


I'm pretty sure most of you are aware how hard it is to distinguish all these 'labels' from each other (especially with all of them evolving). Therefore I'd like to ask you not to pick 'other' when you feel like one of the options doesn't completely correspond with you, but to pick the option that mostly corresponds with you and then further elaborate in a reply.

Also, I allowed users to change their vote for this one but not to vote for more than one option since that would make the whole 'headcount' part a tad confusing. ;)
Enough babbling from my side though. Get to voting! And thanks for participating.

I'm going to go with "other" because I'm kind of a hybrid. I suppose I would describe myself as something of an even three-way split between genderqueer, female-to-male, and genderfluid (between male and rather-effeminate-androgyne, rather than between male and female).

I chose Nullgender since I simply don't feel like I have a gender (not female, not male, not something else)... It's kind of like I view the gender realm from an underwater world - it's all just one big blur... I experience some body dysphoria but not to the extend where I'd consider myself Neutrois. It took me quite some time but I managed to make peace with my body and the individual that lives within it. It works for me. :)

Genderfluid

I always said pregender because I feel like I am as gendered as a toddler allowed to go their own way and so will blithely take part in any which one. I put down androgyne, my conception seems to fit in their comfortably.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 02, 2010, 01:30:36 PM
I always said pregender because I feel like I am as gendered as a toddler allowed to go their own way and so will blithely take part in any which one.

If my memory isn't failing I think there was a really old thread on that... I think Reeb started it.. Might look it up...

edit eureka... Found two threads, you started one actually:
Epiphany 6:4 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,15870.0.html)
Is Androgyne an adult? whats an androgyne child? (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,15836.0.html)

Sorry No_ID

I had to choose other - please don't hit me! I am a female chameleon.

I am basically single gendered and female - (which doesn't seem to be an option unless I missed it) but I can camouflage myself at will and "appear" to be any other gender possibility.

I suppose in a way that is a bit like Crows Hybrid description - only difference is that I do not feel that I AM any of the other genders, merely that I can appear to be them convincingly when I want to do so. :D

For me it's kind of like gender as a performance art!  :laugh:

'Course I did - epiphany was my big idea that month. This month I'm planning my wedding to...someone.

Umm...I put "don't know" because I don't really know.  I mean, I'm neither fully male or female at anytime but then I also have that "feeling" of being male (albeit very feminine).  It's pretty confusing.

common androgyne represent.

SO I'm in some way between male and female, I'm also at some point between "male-female" AND nongender/third gender whatever that is.

Also, I think via the Zen & bikes book, that there has to be probably a certain "above/beyond gender" quality to androgyny, so that attempting to define what it truly is, is bound to fail due to language constraints.

Because, how would we know life without gender ?

Quote from: rejennyrated on August 02, 2010, 02:15:59 PM
Sorry No_ID

I had to choose other - please don't hit me! I am a female chameleon.

Oh no worries, it's not like I keep track of the IP adresses of everyone who voted other and have a missile set ready to launch once the traces are complete!

... I'm just going to edit a file now, brb...

Androgyne

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 02, 2010, 02:17:38 PM
'Course I did - epiphany was my big idea that month. This month I'm planning my wedding to...someone.

Wow, really? A wedding Pica Pica?!! Congratulations!!!  :icon_biggrin:
-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

I said "I don't know". 

I tell some people that I'm FTM and some that I'm androgyne.  Whatever they will understand best.  At times I am so sure that I am male, I have intense body dysphoria.  At other times I want to dress up my female-ness, although I hardly identify with that part of me.  Most of the time I wish that gender didn't exist so that I wouldn't have to think of a label for myself.  I feel like a third gender at times as well.  Maybe I am trigenderfluid?  I'll think about it.

headcount: 1, usually
:D

as far as myself, Genderqueer with a touch of Neutrois for the times when I feel like throwing "gender" out the window and focus on being me.

Quote from: Emerald on August 02, 2010, 08:39:10 PM
Androgyne
Wow, really? A wedding Pica Pica?!! Congratulations!!!  :icon_biggrin:
-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Not at all, am just daydreaming.

Lately I have been trying on the term bigender and I have been spending so much time in the middle that the scale is tipping back to androgyne. It is like a moving target. If there was multiple choice I would have checked three boxes, including genderfluid. Kind of like a movie where the ending keeps changing.

Quote from: Bombi on August 03, 2010, 07:18:10 AM
Lately I have been trying on the term bigender and I have been spending so much time in the middle that the scale is tipping back to androgyne. It is like a moving target. If there was multiple choice I would have checked three boxes, including genderfluid. Kind of like a movie where the ending keeps changing.

It's difficult, isn't it?

I see several of those terms that seem to fit me to some degree or another depending on what phase/mode/cycle of the moon it is  :laugh:

1. Androgyne: neither male or female.
2. Genderqueer: not completely male and not completely female.
4. Bigender: both male and female at seperate occasions.
5. Trigender: both male, female and neither at seperate occasions.
6. Ambigender: both male and female.
9. Third gender: a third gender to male and female.
10. Genderfluid: fluxuating between male and female.

Ultimately, i settled on genderfluid.

Quote from: riven1 on August 03, 2010, 07:55:10 AM
It's difficult, isn't it?

Imagine the headache I got when putting the poll together... :P
... and then I still had to vote!  :o

nada gender, ie. nullgender. i want a minimalist body, ie, the FtM body, no breasts, no penis, [no strange lumps sticking out anywhere is how i like to refer to it ;D] minimal hair. gender seems to me just a label of how you dress and hold yourself, it doesn't seem to go beyond that. i'm just a person. that's all.

however nobody ever gets it, so irl i am just a guy.

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on August 02, 2010, 03:36:45 PM
Because, how would we know life without gender ?

As life without gender. I don't think it's a necessary component. We would just understand it as that. Which when I think about that, it would eliminate a large amount of cowcrap in just about everything.

Androgyne...and maybe a couple other ones, or maybe not. Wait....I'm still thinking about it.......

Quote from: ativan on August 04, 2010, 12:29:37 AM
As life without gender. I don't think it's a necessary component. We would just understand it as that. Which when I think about that, it would eliminate a large amount of cowcrap in just about everything.

Androgyne...and maybe a couple other ones, or maybe not. Wait....I'm still thinking about it.......

So can you imagine life in two dimensions ?
What if we had 3 eyes instead of two ?
Oh, I know, let's imagine life where we were beings of light and had no corporeal body :D

Quote from: ativan on August 04, 2010, 12:29:37 AM
As life without gender. I don't think it's a necessary component. We would just understand it as that.

This is where i'm coming from at the moment (I voted other btw).  No need for it really - I like to think(hope really!) that society will evolve beyond gender eventually

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on August 04, 2010, 01:37:55 PM
So can you imagine life in two dimensions ?
What if we had 3 eyes instead of two ?
Oh, I know, let's imagine life where we were beings of light and had no corporeal body :D

:laugh: :laugh: More fun things to think about (I only see things as flat, no depth perception, one of my eyes (only two) see's about two ft) that's how I perceive it. If that's what our world was like, that's how we would perceive it. Is it half full or half empty. It's always debatable, but the truth is....It's a glass with water in it. No more, no less. Male or Female? It's a person. But, the debate goes on.
I don't feel either gender as much as I feel like me. That's the only way I can perceive it.  ??? :laugh:
OK, a two dimensional, three eye'd beings of light without genders world. :laugh:

My rug and dish beckon me.......

Quote from: ativan on August 04, 2010, 08:18:47 PM
Is it half full or half empty

Both  :D

22 votes so far and pretty interesting results so far (I think)...

Quote from: ativan on August 04, 2010, 08:18:47 PM
It's always debatable, but the truth is....It's a glass with water in it. No more, no less. Male or Female? It's a person. But, the debate goes on.

So is it an empty glass of water or an empty glass? ;)

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Post Merge: August 06, 2010, 05:15:24 AM

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Quote from: Sameth on August 03, 2010, 04:05:54 PM
nada gender, ie. nullgender. i want a minimalist body, ie, the FtM body, no breasts, no penis, [no strange lumps sticking out anywhere is how i like to refer to it ;D] minimal hair. gender seems to me just a label of how you dress and hold yourself, it doesn't seem to go beyond that. i'm just a person. that's all.

however nobody ever gets it, so irl i am just a guy.

Sounds pretty Neutrois to me... ;)

Hi.

Androgyne.
   Male & female & think both ways & quite happy as it is .

Mind you in telling people,  i just say im  a transfemale with a male background & that works ,

& in the main im accepted well , & many people with in our groups & others who we come in contact with just accept me as i am , & thats as a woman .thats with in the communitys where we live

...noeleena...

wait ,i'm the  only one who voted neutrois  ???
actually it's the first time i've ever heard this term , but once i read it , i was like 'yup -_- , that's the one' . i've always been like 'eww i don't wanna be a guy' and 'eww i don't wanna be a girl' ever since i was a baby , but since i had to squeeze myself into a binary i've always tried to fit into the guys' binary (yeah life would've been much simpler if i could do that) ,but wanting so much , actually needing , to transitioning to a female body(which later i found out it was a need to not being in my current body) , but after some researching , ern , well , more like asking people here about stuff and reading posts . i came to the conclusion that i'm actually gender-free , simply a person (that's why i always have this 'genderqueer ' thing below my name , it's more of a general term ,well at least i thought so . thanks for the new info

depends on what day of the week you ask me... any of these could fit:

# Androgyne
# Genderqueer
# Third gender
# Genderfluid
# Other (please specify): non binary gender variant; non-op, non hrt trans; etc.
# Don't know (and why does it even matter what gender I am anyway?)

I haven't voted as I haven't yet figured out which I might be  :laugh:

Z

Quote from: no_id on August 06, 2010, 02:28:31 AM
So is it an empty glass of water or an empty glass? ;)

Is it always a negative thing to see the glass as half empty? Suppose such a perception motivates you to fill the glass - so to speak - whereas seeing it as half full leads to complacency. Focusing on the lack in one's life can then be a driving force for success. Not so negative now, is it?  The glass and water serve one purpose admirably well, and that is to slake thirst. Trying to decide if it is half full or half empty does absolutely nothing to further that purpose. If anything, it gets in the way and delays the ultimate objective of drinking. Without anything in the glass, it is just a glass.  ;)
(most of that is from Derek Lin, from a Tao perspective.....)

I've gone with other, for similar reasons to Jenny's really. Though I freely admit that my thoughts and feelings about myself are constantly in flux and i reserve the right to change my mind without warning.

I chose Intergender before I read your defination, If I'm asked IRL what gender I am I'll say that I'm Intergendered androgyne if I get a strange look or whats that I say basicly i'm genderqueer if a young child asks if I am Boy or girl I say I'm somewhere inbetween But I see Intergender as a Mix some things Male & some things Female and Some things "Other/Both/neither" some parts of my gender identity are stable other elements are fluid being Both, neither, male or female or anywhere inbetween The most stable part of my identity is what I want my body to be,  the most fluid is in my emotional responce.  if someone hurts me badly emotionally by what they say or do I could want to hit them (male),need a big cry (female) or turn it into a joke (other) or all three or any two I know If I bottle up the emotion or hide through humour I'm likely to to explode into a mess of violent tears that my tedybear or pillow will recieve in a harsh way. if in this poll I could choose multipul labels I would have gone intergender androgyne genderqueer ambigender, third gender and gender fluid and maybe other.

Quote from: ativan on August 06, 2010, 10:43:12 AM
Is it always a negative thing to see the glass as half empty? Suppose such a perception motivates you to fill the glass - so to speak - whereas seeing it as half full leads to complacency. Focusing on the lack in one's life can then be a driving force for success. Not so negative now, is it?  The glass and water serve one purpose admirably well, and that is to slake thirst. Trying to decide if it is half full or half empty does absolutely nothing to further that purpose. If anything, it gets in the way and delays the ultimate objective of drinking. Without anything in the glass, it is just a glass.  ;)
(most of that is from Derek Lin, from a Tao perspective.....)

Touché my dear Ativan. ;)

Genderqueer is as genderqueer does. Or thinks. Or something.

genderqueer thinks?

Well, sometimes it has a mind of its own.

I felt like the search was over, I had finally come home when I discovered the concept of Bigender. It fits me like a glove.

Welcome home then. Milk needs fetching and there's a funny smell coming from the drain, sort it out please.

LOL, well, look for the plunger and give me $5 to go to the 7-11.

A pint of milk costs you $5? Blimey, I'll do it meself for 45p.

Quote from: Crow on August 02, 2010, 11:55:16 AM
I suppose I would describe myself as something of an even three-way split between genderqueer, female-to-male, and genderfluid (between male and rather-effeminate-androgyne, rather than between male and female).

Pretty much exactly what I was going to write - though I picked "genderfluid" on the poll because I felt it fits the overall idea of me, than anything else. :)

I finally voted, although I came down to about 3 and played einy, meiny miney mo :) 

Lately, I've had a lot of people telling, giving me an order, to define myself.
It's like WHAT ARE YOU. And then "Just choose ONE thiing!"
And I'm like, "Yes, but my choice is not among the ones you offer. So my choice won't fit into your binary-exclusive point of view."

And then we spend all night debating about perceptions.

It would be so easy to just say "I'm androgyne", but I refuse to do even that. Because saying "the object has an intrinsic property called "fill", of which it is about half", still leaves too much unsaid.

And those things which are not said, really bother me.

It's like I love the unknown, but fear choices.
And people tell me "FEAR CAN BE VANQUISHED", well, that contrasts sharply with my observations, fear never leaves, and is just managed.
Besides, all emotions and all feelings have their meaning. Just pretending to avoid those deemed as "disgusting" is wasted effort.

And stuff.

ZaidaZadkiel, labels aren't there to define you, no matter how many people think that's true. Labels are there for convenience's sake-- a quick way for others to whom it is relevant to identify you. So they're not worth agonizing about.

No one fits 100% cleanly into any label, and you shouldn't feel like you should have to.

Quote from: brainiac on August 16, 2010, 05:35:41 PM
Labels are there for convenience's sake-- a quick way for others to whom it is relevant to identify you.

Labels are like name tags, you have to fill in the blank yourself. :)

Yes, but how do I explain it to them ?

They seem to be from the point of view that their opinion and point of view is absolute truth.

Oh, good idea! I shall discuss the issue of errors and mistakes of judgments next time I see them.


Also, words have a dualistic division implicit.
Words define what the word is, and undefine everything the word is not.
Left is not right, and there is at some point, an invisible line between "left" and "right". The middle, if you will, but the middle has an invisible line between "middle" and "left", and between "middle" and "right".

These divisions seem to be arbitrary, and that's what's currently breaking my head.

Not sure yet/don't know.

I -think- I identify as androgyne, or genderqueer, or third gender.  Kind of a both/neither aspect, with respect to "man" and "woman."  When I started doing a lot of thinking about this months and months ago, I identified most with GQ because I didn't know.  And I still don't know.  Am I both?  A part of each?  Neither?

I'm not fluid, and I have plenty of gender.  Just haven't figured out what yet!

I think for many people, names and labels provide an important sense of identity & belonging. Like the relief of finally knowing what is making you sick even if you are no better, being able to associate with a group of people relieves the feeling of being alone and provides a sense of self that we are unable to achieve with them.

I just think it is impossible to be nowhere and so if you are not nowhere you should be somewhere and if you are somewhere you should know where that somewhere is and be able to give it a name.

I picked "I don't care" but not because I don't care, but because I don't care if I fit a label anymore.  I'm just happy being me, whatever that may be.   :laugh:

What to do when more than one fits. *pulls out hair* 

I picked agender, though androgyne would work equally well (if it has a neither-male-nor-female non-binary flair, which it seem to possess.)  :)

Quote from: Jaimey on August 17, 2010, 07:30:38 PM
I picked "I don't care" but not because I don't care, but because I don't care if I fit a label anymore.  I'm just happy being me, whatever that may be.   :laugh:

When you stop to smell a rose, aren't you glad you've got a nose?

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 19, 2010, 07:56:14 AM
When you stop to smell a rose, aren't you glad you've got a nose?

Indeed!

Personally myself I've interprited "third gender" and "androgyn" to be more or less....the same. *shrugs* So I actually voted androgyn first...then changed my mind to third gender. Eh.

I really find myself to be somewhere...truely between male and female (as if it were actually a 1-10 scale. I know it's not...just sayin.) When I think about myself as "male" it doesn't work because I'm just too female...but when I think of myself as female it doesn't work because I'm just too male. *shrugs* Androgyn...yep. Or...ya know..Third gender. A %50-%50 really.

It was a tough choice.  Narrowed it down to androgyne and genderqueer.  I finally went with genderqueer.

Quote from: Mathbeing on August 22, 2010, 02:12:24 AM
I picked androgyne, neither male nor female.  That describes pretty aptly how I feel.

Me too Mathbeing, me too.
I simply feel happily human, neither male nor female... in a good way.
I see you are brand new here. I'm glad you found us! :icon_biggrin: Welcome!

-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:

So far, I seem to be the lone raised hand for "trigender", but genderqueer or genderfluid could also fit, too.  Sometimes I feel more male, sometimes I feel more female, most of the times I don't really feel like I'm anything in particular.

When I was a kid, I remember playing with this four color pen once, and drawing a nursery full of little wrapped baby bundles, using all the colors of the pen - some were boys, some were girls, some were both, some were neither - and this seemed entirely logical to me, at the time.  Despite having had access to enough nursing texts as a kid to have a reasonable idea of XX and XY chromosomes.  Kids think interesting things before they're trained to turn their imaginations off...

I selected "I don't know" because none of the labels fit.

I had to select 'Other'.  After 5 years of poking, prodding and pondering i still can't manage to come up with a suitable ( to me ) definition of what gender is or if it even truly exists.

After much deliberation i changed my vote from genderfluid to bigender. It seems to fit better as i keep evolving.

What a strange thing GID is. I went from absolutely no awareness of it four years ago, living a typically male life - to a total awareness of it today. 

And my ways have changed also - now i let the girl out, fully dressed and made up, and let her play from time to time  :)

Quote from: phx_rising on August 21, 2010, 09:42:46 PM

I really find myself to be somewhere...truely between male and female (as if it were actually a 1-10 scale. I know it's not...just sayin.) When I think about myself as "male" it doesn't work because I'm just too female...but when I think of myself as female it doesn't work because I'm just too male. *shrugs* Androgyn...yep. Or...ya know..Third gender. A %50-%50 really.

I totally get this,
but I know that for me I can feel very Male & very Female at the same time to me 50% would mean average the average man is 50% Manly the average woman is 50% Fem I float around 40-75% male 60-80% Fem most of the time rarely at times of high emotional strain I get the Male side very high like 90+ where I feel the need for violence at the same time as a need to cry uncontrolably with normaly my pillow or tedy bear getting the abuse from me. thankfully that doesn't happen much.  I've never hit a living thing is this state and have avoided ever hitting anyone, I hate violence in all its forms.

I think I'm somewhere about 15-60-25% female-androgyne-male, percentage of the time I feel like each, I mean.  Of course, in the realm of "androgyne", there's a bit of a spectrum as well, it's not absolutely consistent flatline mood from one day to the next, but feeling a bit girly but not being one is different from feeling like I am one, still!

Gah! Just... gah!! And just when I thought I'd thrown off the labels, look what happens! :o I'd say trigender/genderfluid with a longing for an in-between body... which puts me in at least 3 categories already (and not quite fitting any of them either)... my brain hurts... (plus it's 4:34 am and when you don't have internet for a week it all catches up on you.)
I'll come back to this when I'm thinking more coherently and have got past my 'gah!' response at the myriad of options.  :P

After a lot of pulling faces at it, I put trigender, though sometimes I feel more like the neutrois description.  :laugh: