I've been reading the 'What does being treated like a female feel like?' thread and have found it a real surprising and eye-opening experience. (check it here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,81892.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,81892.0.html))
I was very struck with the way that I am treated differs from the female experience and how it coincides - I was just shocked how neatly my experience of being treated fit somewhere between male and female - usually androgyne stuff doesn't slip in it's (supposed) place quite so easily.
One of the female things is being called 'love' in shops. I've been called love quite often, and duck and deary and petal (I remember petal very clearly). I just had a plumber mistake my room for the toilet, burst in with a 'sorry love' as I was writing this. This is probably the most overtly feminine part of how general people treat me.
People hold open doors for me as well, but as far as I can see it, everybody tends to hold doors open for everybody - it doesn't seem to be a particularly gendered thing.
What got my attention the most though were the many references of men giving a nod of recognition to men and women giving a smile of recognition to women. Now, I live in London and greeting every passing person with smiles and nods would turn me into a gurning loon with a sore neck but there are still occasions - if you are in a quiet street or walking down a corridor - where that kind of recognition is still performed. I have never before noticed that males recognise males and females recognise females. I've always recognised people with a nod and a smile - as I do when I catch someone's eyes on the tube. I never realised that combining both was different.
Indeed all the stuff about getting less smiles as a male seem to be lost on me, I am always smiling and being smiled at (which I reckon is the same thing). It is rare to go into a shop without a grin and a hello and usually a little joke or something. (Unless it's a cornershop, they never look at you).
On the other hand, nobody offers to help me carry stuff, I usually am volunteered to carry stuff for other people, but I am quite a solid and stolid kind of person and can carry a fair amount without problem. I also find on the male side that sometimes people cross on the other side of the road from me especially because I can be walking around at a fair pace with my head in the cloud and I guess having a puffing, muttering Pica charging up the road towards you could be an intimidating sight. However, people always ask me for directions and they all learn that they have asked the wrong person - well, we can't all be Livingstone.
Ultimately I think that people treat you according to the signals you give out regarding how you wish to be treated - I doubt people treat me in such and such a way because they have an inherent knowledge of AG type peoples, just that they respond to what I give them.
This has rambled a bit - I was just surprised at how well people read most of the signals I give out - despite the fact that to most people they would seem quite mixed.
Quote from: Pica Pica on August 09, 2010, 05:50:37 AM
Ultimately I think that people treat you according to the signals you give out regarding how you wish to be treated - I doubt people treat me in such and such a way because they have an inherent knowledge of AG type peoples, just that they respond to what I give them.
This, I think, is the heart of the matter.
A manly man will be treated as such, and a womanly woman will be treated as such. At least, that's been true in my experience so far. If I give off effeminate signals, I find I'll be treated as if I were gay. The idea of a non-binary gender identity just doesn't seem to be something that many people are aware of.
At least, that's been my experience.
there's not much that i can add , except that people will treat someone the way they think this person wants to be treated , and they speculate that by the signs and clues one gives. unfortunately though , unlike binary genders ,there's no code or a set of rules of how an androgyne should be treated , so the outcome i guess is a 'mixture' of both 'codes' .
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on August 09, 2010, 11:58:47 AM
This, I think, is the heart of the matter.
A manly man will be treated as such, and a womanly woman will be treated as such. At least, that's been true in my experience so far. If I give off effeminate signals, I find I'll be treated as if I were gay. The idea of a non-binary gender identity just doesn't seem to be something that many people are aware of.
At least, that's been my experience.
That's a good point. Is it customary to call gay men "love" etc?
Only if over-articulated in a campy style.
Quote from: Pica Pica on August 09, 2010, 06:13:18 PM
Only if over-articulated in a campy style.
But you, love, can call me "hate." :D
Quote from: Pica Pica on August 09, 2010, 05:50:37 AM
Ultimately I think that people treat you according to the signals you give out regarding how you wish to be treated - I doubt people treat me in such and such a way because they have an inherent knowledge of AG type peoples, just that they respond to what I give them.
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on August 09, 2010, 11:58:47 AM
This, I think, is the heart of the matter.
A manly man will be treated as such, and a womanly woman will be treated as such. At least, that's been true in my experience so far. If I give off effeminate signals, I find I'll be treated as if I were gay. The idea of a non-binary gender identity just doesn't seem to be something that many people are aware of.
At least, that's been my experience.
I think you two pretty much summed it up here. Nice teamwork. ;)
I've never really thought about how I'm treated differently... Now I have I might actually have some input on the subject!
When I was a child I was treated like a boy by my peers, when we hit puberty the boys who had treated me like one of them got confused and the girls didn't know what to do with me. Nowadays men usually treat me like one of them, but then get confused when I do or react in a not-so-masculine way. Women still don't really know what to do with me, young girls just want me to come by on a white horse with a bouquet of flowers and sweep them off their feet... But I'm scared of horses so that won't happen.
I suppose my signs are mixed and hence the responses I get are mixed too. Most men give me a hand when we say hello or goodbye, others give kisses.. It's actually quite a fun sight when I walk into the bar; there's me exchanging kisses with some men while with others I just shake hands with a pat on the shoulder. I actually feel women are more reserved towards me except for my close friends. They don't treat me like a woman, but neither are they bedazzled when I treat them ladylike in a more masculine fancy.
It's actually quite confusing coming to think about it... ???
Quote from: no_id on August 10, 2010, 05:12:11 AM
young girls just want me to come by on a white horse with a bouquet of flowers and sweep them off their feet... But I'm scared of horses so that won't happen.
When are you going to come on a white elephant and sweep me off my feet?
Quote from: Pica Pica on August 10, 2010, 05:32:48 AM
When are you going to come on a white elephant and sweep me off my feet?
Once my 10 headed flying turtle escort can distinguish left from right. :)
Quote from: Pica Pica on August 09, 2010, 05:50:37 AMI was very struck with the way that I am treated differs from the female experience and how it coincides - I was just shocked how neatly my experience of being treated fit somewhere between male and female - usually androgyne stuff doesn't slip in it's (supposed) place quite so easily
I suppose females have more admirers. Once, I was walking through the park, in night, a drunken group of boys there, they made way to me and shouted -
it's the holy virgin. When I was younger, homosexuals were always trying to pick me up in bars, but women, never, and it frustrated me a lot.
Now, I feel my androgynity is the same as invisibility. I am not attractive either to men, nor females, so nobody is looking at me. Neither I am ugly. Just plain and grey. If I avoid eye-contact, the invisibility is 100%.
No one knows that i am an androgyne (wife and present company excepted), so i don't really know how being "treated like an androgyne" feels like. People that I know would be shocked to find out that i am androgyne, but probably only after i explain what an androgyne is first ::)
I know that (if one were to observe closely) you might be able to figure out that something is a bit "off" with me, which MAY influence how people act toward me to some degree. But that's a bit of a stretch i think, and i really have no way of knowing.
In the thread that pica referred to - many of those people went through a transition, and it is pretty obvious to them now what the differences are in the way they were treated before, and the way they are treated now. It seems to me that we don't get to have that distinction.
Quote from: Pica Pica on August 10, 2010, 05:32:48 AM
What does being treated like an androgyne feel like?
You tell us, Studvixen!
QuoteUltimately I think that people treat you according to the signals you give out regarding how you wish to be treated - I doubt people treat me in such and such a way because they have an inherent knowledge of AG type peoples, just that they respond to what I give them.
I agree with this statement as well and not just along the gender lines. We treat people in accordance to the signals that they give off. If someone acts like they don't want to be included, they aren't, for example (though often, they are just shy or unaware of the signals they're giving off). I'm kind of in the "tomboy" camp, as far as gender goes. Guys treat me like a girl, but not the same way they treat "cutesy" girls. I have more tension with women than men. I think some women find me crass and unfeminine while others just don't know what to think...I have to say, though, that most of my female friends fall under the crass and "unfeminine" umbrella, so perhaps the stuffy ideas of what "feminine" is are the problem. :D Also...at work, it seems that the women I work with think I'm dumb...I don't know if that's me or them. I don't have the same issues with the men. Weird.
I once remember reading a sharp interview about.... Norma Jeane Mortenson (Baker)....This was being done quietly in a corner of a NYC hotel lobby..... and she bemoaned the fact (like many stars) that once famous people only see the personae....
To prove the point she asked the interviewer...."Would you like to meet Marilyn?"
Her demeanour instantly changed.... and within minutes folk in the lobby were flocking over to her for hugs-n-autographs...
What we project out, what clothes we wear.... all these things alter reactions to us...femininity is a form or artifice anyways... make-up is in fact theatrical....
Are physically good looking people generally more successful than ugly peeps..... sadly so. Stats on mean income salaries and interview success prove it...
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/Careers/07/08/looks/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/Careers/07/08/looks/)
Can we all improve how we're perceived – definitely...
Does it (really) matter when it comes to the inner beautiful you...? (It shouldn't)....I met many ugly personalities...though pretty mannequin's maybe....when I worked in the industry for 20 years....
Many destroying themselves with minimal diets, drugs, black-coffee and ciggies....
But u'mans are at heart social creatures..... so evaluated and evaluators we all be....
Interestingly its men that use visual looks as key in initial attraction - more than women do - with women what makes a man attractive has a lot more to do with his stability and income generation for her during baby making nurturing...
*s->-bleeped-<-s*
But that's another topic....
In a lot of ways, people treat me as female because of the shape of my body. However, my androgynous gender presentation does not go unnoticed. People also seem to treat me as androgyne.
For example, almost everyone I know seems genuinely puzzled as to what my sexual orientation might be. Friends tend to ask directly. Other people act like they're trying to avoid asking directly, and trying to figure it out indirectly by asking related questions. I've been hit on by people of all genders and sexual orientations. People often ask questions about my gender expression, like, "Do you ever wear a skirt?" (sometimes), some variation on "Why aren't you like other girls?" (I don't think of myself as a girl . . . ), etc. Strangers refer to me with a mix of pronouns.
People also seem to pick up on the fact that my gender identity is male. I get included in activities thought of as masculine, and excluded from feminine activities.
So I guess, to a large extent, the way people treat you is based on your attitude.
Quote from: Protasekretis on August 10, 2010, 04:23:21 PM
Now, I feel my androgynity is the same as invisibility. I am not attractive either to men, nor females, so nobody is looking at me. Neither I am ugly. Just plain and grey. If I avoid eye-contact, the invisibility is 100%.
Invisible, yes. I can't count how many times I've had people walk into me on the sidewalk or in a mall as if they don't see me *at all* - I divert my course some (I don't expect to have to dive into the street to avoid everybody all the time, really!) to avoid hitting them, yet they don't move over to their side at all, as would normally happen in pedestrian traffic, so...smack! It's like I've got a Somebody Else's Problem field around me or something, it's weird.
In school, I always seemed to be exempt from the "guys don't beat up girls" rule, despite having a female body. I'm not really part of the guys, or part of the girls, but integrating with either is easier if I've got a gay guy friend around. I rarely get hit on by anyone, except the odd person that's absolutely falling down drunk, but that could be just because I'm unattractive in general. Lots of people seem to think I'm a lesbian, or at least bisexual, though I'm not, and don't seem to believe me when I say so, and it's not just straight people who's gaydar I seem to ping.
It feels like getting none of the privilege typically granted to one perceived as male, and none of the chivalry extended to one perceived as female.
It's always been like this.
On the subject of what perople refer to me as-- I've found (to my delight) that recently a lot of people have started to alternate between "pet names" for me, calling me dude, buddy, hun, sweetie, etc. all with equal readiness. None of those are inherently gendered terms, but they definitely have connotations... and I rather like that people have started to more-or-less freely mix and match gender-connotated words for me. 83
Other than that, I find that most of the ways people treat me androgynously are more subtle. It seems to be less about drawing specific attention to my androgyny and more about quietly respecting that I don't really fit the binary. People who treat me androgynously are equally enthusiastic about my attire whether I'm wearing a dashing vest and bowtie or a bright, flowy gypsy skirt (as opposed to the people who wonder why I don't just dress as a guy all the time, or get... uncharacteristically excited about my attire on the rare occassions that I dress in an overtly feminine manner). They don't argue or question that I go by the name Diane but use male pronouns. They just respectfully treat me as myself and don't try to pigeonhole me into stereotypical gender roles and presentations.
This is an interesting thread that made me think a lot about how I am perceived atm. So I'm giving my two cents to this conversation as well, even if the thread is somewhat old.
Lately I've been thinking a lot of the gendered social roles and how I would like others to treat me. Obviously being treated as female leaves me feeling awkward and out of place in most situations (one of the big reasons why I would like to be referred to with male pronouns). But it's possible that being treated as male would in time be just as awkward.
Currently I seem to look very androgynous for many people that have known me for years - I've clearly shifted from the girl box into just 'something else'. Most seem to assume that I'm a lesbian, even people that know I've been in long-term relationships with men, too. Or maybe they assume I just want to look like a lesbian, or simply need to put at least some category on me since I've not given them one to use, yet ::) Basically people have taken some distance from me, maybe they're confused and trying to figure out what I am. Currently I really like that, since that means less frustration about being perceived as a girl. I'd rather be seen as a poor gender-confused kid than that, really. Mostly I feel people just treat me more like I feel I am now that I start to look more androgynous. :) Even if there are some conflicts, as well, with me not taking it well that I get treated as a girl.
Then there are the odd stares from strangers. I've never gotten really stared at before (or if I have, they've been hetero men and soon started some kind of a flirting thing, again leading into awkwardness). Now I am stared at. I recently went into a clothe shop for the first time in ages, and got stared both at the men's department and the women's ::) That kind of attention does leave me feel a bit jittery, I don't like too much attention if I don't know what is triggering it.
Then there are the people that know me well and understand me being 'gender-challenged'. With them I feel really at home, I can act the way I feel I am and most importantly, the social anxiety I've always had has disappeared with them after coming out. :) Many friends really make an effort to treat me more like something else or like a boy, and even if it right now is more an honorary position, I still like it. Makes me feel very relieved. :)
I would be happy if I could just escape most gender roles, but I feel especially awkward about the female stuff and get feelings of guilty pleasure when someone treats me as a boy. I always feel awkward when women talk about the stuff they talk about (pregnancy, kids, make-up, clothes...) and feel a bit more in place when I'm with guys. Hell, I can even endure the talks about cars and ice hockey if it means I can escape the girl category.
...Oh, and one thing that made me realize a lot more people know of this trans thing of mine than I assumed, was that they have started to casually start conversations about it and look up to me to get answers about what this "trans thingie" means etc. :D Which is totally okay for me. ^^
Ah, indeed, an interesting thread.
I feel in the middle of something. Though I still identify as male, people use to hold doors and wait for me to enter a bus. They are kinder than before and I just cannot walk into a clothes' store and be in my self (many clerks ask if they can help, if I liked the shirt I'm seeing, etc) and they wait for me to see whether the clothes fit or not. I am getting some street attention, which I sometimes appreciate and sometimes feel just odd.
I thought that most would assume I'm gay, but my attitude has kept people from thinking that (thought that for a long time, but when I started coming out for some people a very few of them actually had a clue about what was it because my attitude is kinda masculine in some ways). Of course, if I switch voices right now people would instantly flip that switch.
Though I like some talks, I cannot endure the ones about the current season's soccer games; what about the right car. And cannot endure looong conversations about makeup, pregnancy, clothes. But any of these are valid if coming from a context.
In my last jobs, one coworker just had shown signs of protection towards me. He was the main customer agent representative and it was the first time I felt like that (he said he'd protect me so I wouldn't have to work so much more overtime, that I could count on him if the customer ever abuses something, etc).
Ah, and some friends of mine had been asking me information about makeup. That must say something. :laugh:
Most people don't see people as being anything other then Male or Female and when they see someone who doesn't fit as Male or Female their brains go all crazy and decide that this person is less then human or freak. I regularly get called freak or Man in dress. I somtimes have strangers complementing me on parts of my look. but out and about most of the time it is just strange looks but I am regularly made to feel different or like an outsider
I tend to only really confuse little kids. Once when I was cashiering a boy was bragging about his new hockey table, which he wouldn't share with his sister. His sister and his mom were like "you have to share!" And I was like (scanning noises) "I liked air hockey too!" And the boy said "See! He gets it!" And then I held my tongue while his mom yelled at him.
Another common thing is "Mom why is that boy acting like a girl?" Because my sweatshirt/short hair=boy, way of talking=girl.
I'm trying to "walk like a man" as strange/binary-confined as that sounds...
Being androgynous, and being treated as such, means your treatment is usually relative to your overall demeanor, or signals you are giving as out the original poster stated.
I live my life in an androgynous state and occasionally going on either extreme of the gender role. However, because my voice is so feminine, and my movement and overall appearance is so feminine, that most people default to calling me a she, and treating me as such. Oddly enough, If I tell people that I'm actually a boy, they still treat me like a girl.
Usually things are never awkward. As long as you are confident with yourself and who you are, then people will treat you with respect... And treat you like a human.
Quote from: VannaSiamese on January 22, 2013, 09:08:16 PM...If I tell people that I'm actually a boy, they still treat me like a girl...Usually things are never awkward.... And treat you like a human.
This is so true. One thing I learned long ago (and I was androgynous as far back as the 1970s) is that people tend to treat you more respectfully if you look very good-- even if it's not in a was consistent with your natural gender. I grew my hair very long soon after moving out of my parent's house and got lots of negatives about it early on, but once it was at a common long length and conditioned/styled very well, people seemed to be more comfortable with it-- even though it looked feminine.
I don't think there really is a way of being "treated like an androgyne", since androgyny isn't a common role in our culture. People will either treat you like a male or a female and, as Vanna pointed out, this is more a matter of impression than actually knowledge.
~ Lyric ~
Quote from: Kareil on August 22, 2010, 11:31:11 AM
Invisible, yes. I can't count how many times I've had people walk into me on the sidewalk or in a mall as if they don't see me *at all*...
Yep. Or getting no service at all in shops, sometimes. Or startling people when they suddenly realize I am there. I'm 6'1 and not particularly stealthy.
Some people seem to be intimidated or wary of me, and I had a friend and coworker who often misread me as angry despitehaving seen what my angry looks like. But then, I also get the "love" and smiles treatment sometimes from people.
a group of friends I have seem to have an obssion with splitting into boy/girl teams recently, for sport or just needing to split up a large group (which drives me mad cause that's not enough categories)
I've noticed if someone needs to switch to make teams even its nearly always me I don't know if that related
I'm faab so that might affect the judgement but guys treat me differently to 'other' girls (most people know me as a girl) more so than girls treat me differently to 'other' girls...I kind of like it, it feels like I get trusted by both groups if that makes sense
Quote from: torii on February 13, 2013, 02:56:27 PM
I kind of like it, it feels like I get trusted by both groups if that makes sense
Makes sense, though I tend to feel the opposite - neither group seems to know what to do with me and it sometimes makes me uncomfortable. I don't really know how they feel about it, but I tend to be left out of any stereotypically one-gender activity