I've just seen this female elbows theory.
stand up with arms straight down and palms against outer side of leg...now turn hands so palms face forward.
if the lower arm has to move away from the body its female elbows.
so I tried it.
I found its impossible to keep my elbows in and arms against my legs with palms forward.
try it and report back please.
Very strange! lower arm does tend to move away, but the wrists more so. Well I can struggle and try to keep it from moving away but that is somewhat rigged as I'd have to rotate my lower arm as well :D
Anyway not sure if I did it right :-\
If this is true I DEFINITELY have female elbows, my arms go straight til the elbow then they go out a LOT! lol made me smile!
I cant even get my wrists to touch trying as hard as I can, only my fingers and then barely.
Gabby
My arms trace and upside down V when I do that :D
It's impossible to keep them straight without injury to my elbow joint!
I qualify for Female elbows!!!
Sounds like HBS pseudo-science...
Any studies to back this up?
Quote from: pheonix on August 30, 2010, 04:20:49 PM
Sounds like HBS pseudo-science...
Any studies to back this up?
just the replies above. Plus it really hurts me to try get my elbows to stay in. how did you do?
Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 04:43:49 PM
just the replies above. Plus it really hurts me to try get my elbows to stay in. how did you do?
I can't -- my lower arms behave as you described in your OP, but that doesn't define it as a "female elbows" thing.
It's a dangerous road to travel when using physical characteristics to define gender. If we made the statement "only women born with vaginas are women," I can guarantee few here would agree. To cut along these lines is similarly problematic.
well I have to say that if all the people who said they couldn't were telling the truth then it is obviously a female thing.
the explanation in the article I read was that this elbow design allows a baby to be suckled best.
Obviuosly it would be nice to have some more input from the FtMs and others on Susans but for now it seems a good marker of MtFness.
"You throw like a girl" ... this is why lol!
Well here's an FTM's input (I hope I'm doing it right).
Being cursed with a body that is unnaturally feminine in a wide variety of ways (including the index finger:ring finger ratio, I'm the only person I've witnessed that has an index finger about a centimeter longer than the ring finger....apparently excessively feminine....whatever) I was surprised to "fail" this test.
I held my palms flat against my thighs and slowly rotated them forward and the side of my hand as well as the entire arm stuck to my body. If I held my arm freely in the air though, there was a very visible bend of my forearm outwards where my upper arm ended. However, one thing I did notice is that where the elbow is is also where my waist and skinniest part of my body is so it was just like a jigsaw where the elbow was unnaturally bendy but my waist accommodated for this by getting skinnier. Perhaps this this small-waist and bendy-elbow is all connected?
Hope this helps, if I did this wrong please let me know D:
Has a natal guy tried this? maybe it is the same for almost everyone ???
Personally, I am a woman, so my elbows are womans elbows, regardless of how they bend.
Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 05:09:52 PMbut for now it seems a good marker of MtFness.
So you're trying to define transsexuality, which is still medically considered a psychological and not biological variation, by physical characteristics? This is a "Harry Benjamin Syndrome" argument, and one which has never held any water medically. Declaring something arbitrary like elbows would likely exclude women who are transsexual.
Could transexuality be tied to intersex conditions? Potentially. But I doubt the dividing line will be whether arms behave as described. The number of us on the board who are diagnosed with intersex conditions are proof that biology is rarely clean or absolute. Expect the answer to be far more complex and nuanced.
Quote from: Meepit on August 30, 2010, 05:25:32 PM
Well here's an FTM's input (I hope I'm doing it right).
I was surprised to "fail" this test.
Perhaps this this small-waist and bendy-elbow is all connected?
Hope this helps, if I did this wrong please let me know D:
Ever wonder why I asked for medical studies supporting this?... ;D
It is kind of fun thinking about such things,
but it would be hard on those that don't have those characteristics.
Considering most trans girls were born with a penis, yet still consider themselves girls is testament to how our biology is not our defining factor.
Quote from: Meepit Perhaps this this small-waist and bendy-elbow is all connected?
Hope this helps, if I did this wrong please let me know D:
/quote]
the upper body length of GGs does vary an awful lot so I'm not sure of any significance of what you state.
if the small waist and bendy elbow is a design feature of a woman in what situation does it have an advantage?
And as I type that line I picture women carrying a small child with it sitting nicely on the hip bone. :D
Quote from: pheonix on August 30, 2010, 05:38:16 PM
So you're trying to define transsexuality,
it's no use getting all huffy about something that from replies recieved is so far quite conclusive.
Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 05:45:14 PM
the upper body length of GGs does vary an awful lot so I'm not sure of any significance of what you state.
if the small waist and bendy elbow is a design feature of a woman in what situation does it have an advantage?
And as I type that line I picture women carrying a small child with it sitting nicely on the hip bone. :D
Well in the sense that it might be more comfortable, which seems to be above procreation. If one had elbows facing inwards and a larger waist, it would be chafing 24/7 and might cause wear on the body. And to do things such as run, the waist would probably allow more swing-room for the bendy-elbows instead of an individual with bendy-elbows and a large-waist having to adjust their arms at each swing. It also factors in the hip swinging which causes a woman's body to swivel slightly while running, possibly jabbing bendy-elbows into their side even more so if there wasn't a smaller waist.
I dunno, that's just my take on it. I can't picture how the elbows would help in carrying a baby (visuals would be nice ;D). I'd also like to think that not everything on a woman's body is to accommodate babies so I'm just suggesting an alternative D: (could be a personal ftm-thing). My prior post wasn't meant to disprove or prove anything I was just giving my observations from another angle.
Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 05:46:44 PM
it's no use getting all huffy about something that from replies recieved is so far quite conclusive.
Being didactic does not huffy make. ;).
Quote from: pheonixSo you're trying to define transsexuality, which is still medically considered a psychological and not biological variation, by physical characteristics?"
I'm fairly sure that it is the same for everyone male or female and that is just the way that arms are. I first saw this therory on youtube and thoughr that the woman who was saying it was a little crazy then. (she had another video supposedly outlining the differences in a male and female walk and when she said 'men walk like this' and did a bizarre impression of what Frankenstein's monster would look like if he had just shat himself)
I think that we all look for feminine or masculine traits as evidence that we should always have been what we know we are, but some folk look a little too hard.
Quote from: MillieB on August 30, 2010, 06:14:10 PM
I'm fairly sure that it is the same for everyone male or female and that is just the way that arms are. I first saw this therory on youtube and thoughr that the woman who was saying it was a little crazy then. (she had another video supposedly outlining the differences in a male and female walk and when she said 'men walk like this' and did a bizarre impression of what Frankenstein's monster would look like if he had just shat himself)
You realize without links hilarity cannot ensue, right? >:-)
http://www.youtube.com/user/TransgenderSupport#p/c/04329A4C04D8112D/4/WIkQtWmXKaw (http://www.youtube.com/user/TransgenderSupport#p/c/04329A4C04D8112D/4/WIkQtWmXKaw) Enjoy :D
Quote from: MillieB on August 30, 2010, 06:36:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/TransgenderSupport#p/c/04329A4C04D8112D/4/WIkQtWmXKaw (http://www.youtube.com/user/TransgenderSupport#p/c/04329A4C04D8112D/4/WIkQtWmXKaw) Enjoy :D
ok this made me rofl!
Quote from: MillieB on August 30, 2010, 06:36:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/TransgenderSupport#p/c/04329A4C04D8112D/4/WIkQtWmXKaw (http://www.youtube.com/user/TransgenderSupport#p/c/04329A4C04D8112D/4/WIkQtWmXKaw) Enjoy :D
LOL was I the only one that felt awkward at the bickering between the camera-person and her? Oh well, I think it helps me somewhat being an FTM with a feminine walk ::) Note to self: walk like Frankenstein would. Thanks for that link ;D
Got the 'bows as well. It's fun to check out traits like this until you don't read too many things into it.
g
Quote from: MillieB on August 30, 2010, 06:36:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/user/TransgenderSupport#p/c/04329A4C04D8112D/4/WIkQtWmXKaw (http://www.youtube.com/user/TransgenderSupport#p/c/04329A4C04D8112D/4/WIkQtWmXKaw) Enjoy :D
Millie, you are my new hero. LOL
What about the washing basket and the hips? I can carry my washing basket on my hips, held by one hand, leaving my other hand and arm free, lol. Its female isn't it, lol. Just another theory I've just made, lol.
This was just a thought for some more funnnnnnn, lol.
Stardust
Quote from: lilacwoman on August 30, 2010, 05:46:44 PM
it's no use getting all huffy about something that from replies recieved is so far quite conclusive.
The problem with your test is, you've so far only gotten answers from MTFs and one FTM. The answer seems to be that almost all follow this pattern. But you haven't tested the one group you'd expect not to have female elbows, i.e. cisgendered men. So you can't know if this is truly a female characteristic, or something that holds true for pretty much everyone.
Let me demonstrate my point: Stand up straight with your left hip and ankle pressed towards the wall. Now, lift your right leg. Can you keep your balance? If "yes", you have male hips.
The problem is, you can't keep your balance. Nobody can; it is, as far as I know, completely impossible (unless the wall slopes or something). But ask a forum of MTFs that question, and they might conclude that none of them have "male hips", and the theory therefore holds true, nevermind that no cis males would then have "male hips", either.
That is why this test needs scientific backing.
I tried it and I apparently have "female elbows", but I think it's the same for most people regardless of biological sex.
Quote from: stardust on August 31, 2010, 05:16:41 PM
What about the washing basket and the hips? I can carry my washing basket on my hips, held by one hand, leaving my other hand and arm free, lol. Its female isn't it, lol. Just another theory I've just made, lol.
This was just a thought for some more funnnnnnn, lol.
Stardust
I sometimes do that and I'm male-bodied. I would actually like to have wider hips than I have now (they're around 43inches, and I'm 176cm tall - my waist is about 41inches and I would like that to be about 35inches).
Quote from: stardust on August 31, 2010, 05:16:41 PM
What about the washing basket and the hips? I can carry my washing basket on my hips, held by one hand, leaving my other hand and arm free, lol. Its female isn't it, lol. Just another theory I've just made, lol.
This was just a thought for some more funnnnnnn, lol.
Stardust
Birthin' hips!
Maybe I'm just lost but I don't get it at all. Bianca and I neither one had any issue with this test (at least not by using the basic directions given here) and can't even figure out what the heck it has to do with elbows. When I turn my palms forward I feel it in my shoulder, not my elbow.
I personally find it very easy to keep my arms completely pressed against my body and turn them from palms inward to palms forward. Bianca also had no problem with this.
While I do think this is all absurd I now wonder, are we doing something wrong? lol
Also, this is not meant to be offensive, but in reference to how this test would prove accurate including cis men and cis women along with FTM and MTF people... anyone on this site or in this thread who is not yet transitioning would qualify for the part of cis male or female in this type of study. Physically if you have not changed your body at all through hormones or surgeries it would still function as any cis genered person's body functioned. So if even one person who responded is MTF who has not began to transition that would physically cover the same requirements you'd need from a cis man. For clarity, once again, I am not saying they are men, but physically the bone structure, muscle structure and weight distribution would all be there for the purposes of a test that requires only a physical male body.
Aw man, no way, I have female elbows. There goes my masculinity. Either that, or I need elbow surgery to fix my girl arms. And finger surgery, lop off some of the index for a more masculine ratio please :laugh:
Got to get rid of all those tells, you know?
Quote from: Silver on September 01, 2010, 02:11:57 AM
Aw man, no way, I have female elbows. There goes my masculinity. Either that, or I need elbow surgery to fix my girl arms. And finger surgery, lop off some of the index for a more masculine ratio please :laugh:
Got to get rid of all those tells, you know?
Seriously! If I could do something about these hips that would be a blessing. I'd also love to be taller, considering all of the men in my family are 6ft or above and I'm like 5'5... I kind of stick out at family gatherings lol.
I feel that this is a nother grasp at the straws that aren't there moments.
Quote from: Cowboi on September 01, 2010, 02:15:00 AM
Seriously! If I could do something about these hips that would be a blessing. I'd also love to be taller, considering all of the men in my family are 6ft or above and I'm like 5'5... I kind of stick out at family gatherings lol.
Oh yeah, same here. My father's like six feet and here I am at 5'5.5" I suppose leg lengthening is an option, although not a recommended one, but there's absolutely nothing you can do about female hips.
Quote from: Binks on September 01, 2010, 02:17:19 AM
I feel that this is a nother grasp at the straws that aren't there moments.
Unless someone puts up an article about this "theory" (sorry I'm a science nerd and don't take to that word too lightly ;D), I'd probably have to agree. It actually seems like it's going backwards by the looks of the posts seeing that both FTM's who tried (myself included ::)) managed to keep their arms stuck to their side while turning them with relative ease. However, if it's any consolation, I'm pretty sure you're not going to hear anyone going around all "There's no way she's female! Look at those elbows!" It just doesn't happen ;). Confidence seems to rule above all.
Quote from: Meepit on September 01, 2010, 02:26:32 AM
Unless someone puts up an article about this "theory" (sorry I'm a science nerd and don't take to that word too lightly ;D), I'd probably have to agree.
OMG, someone after my girls heart! Bianca is a huge science nerd too. You should ask her about her upcoming tramp stamp tattoo sometime... it's so geeky it even impressed me, and I can be hard to impress.
Quote from: Cowboi on September 01, 2010, 02:43:31 AM
OMG, someone after my girls heart! Bianca is a huge science nerd too. You should ask her about her upcoming tramp stamp tattoo sometime... it's so geeky it even impressed me, and I can be hard to impress.
You've made me curious.
Quote from: Cowboi on September 01, 2010, 02:43:31 AM
OMG, someone after my girls heart! Bianca is a huge science nerd too. You should ask her about her upcoming tramp stamp tattoo sometime... it's so geeky it even impressed me, and I can be hard to impress.
Do tell :o. My personal favourite nerdy pickup line is: I wish I was DNA helicase so I could unzip your genes. ::) cheesey I know.
Quote from: Meepit on September 01, 2010, 02:50:08 AM
Do tell :o. My personal favourite nerdy pickup line is: I wish I was DNA helicase so I could unzip your genes. ::) cheesey I know.
LOL - scary thing? That line would work on me no problem LOL.
Hi all,
I have been following this thread with interest (I said about my hips as a bit of fun because it proves nothing). I think the reason we as a people group seek physical signs of our real gender is because we are seeking to understand why we are like we are. Its looking for confirmation for our transition, almost seeking an inter sexed, IS, condition where we are born with girl bits as well as male bits or vice-a-versa (female/male brain not withstanding). If we can prove something like this about ourselves then psychosocially we are more able to accept our condition.
I know that most of us do accept ourselves for what we are, special, blessed, etc, ect, but still we seek that reason to transition or for our transition. It is about self worth whether we have girl elbow, hips, hands, fingers, nose, eye, etc, etc.
Does it really matter? No, what really matters is that we are living out our lives to their full potential and loving it. It has taken me a long time to accept myself and to get rid of a lot of baggage and ghosts along the way, so if I do have girl elbows, hips or not does not really matter. Its interesting but that's all.
Stardust
Quote from: pheonix on September 01, 2010, 05:51:32 AM
LOL - scary thing? That line would work on me no problem LOL.
Well there's more where that came from ;).
i tried this. it just hurts my wrists. i'm a little confused by it though.
Quote from: Silver on September 01, 2010, 02:45:18 AM
You've made me curious.
Her nickname is Binks and she is going to use elements from the periodic table to spell it out, complete with the atomic number and the atomic weight just like you'd see on the table itself. The elements are going to be Bismuth for the Bi, Nitrogen for the N, Potassium for the K and Sodium for the S all in their own little boxes lined up. Then under that she will put the phrase Geek Girl, I'm trying to convince her that it should be written in very girly print to make it more "tramp"ish lol.
There updated my avatar with the basic idea for my tattoo if you want to get an idea of it.
Quote from: Binks on September 02, 2010, 01:53:28 AM
There updated my avatar with the basic idea for my tattoo if you want to get an idea of it.
Hmmmmm. some people may think you belong to BurlingtonNorthernKansasSusquannah railroad... but it looks nice.
Quote from: Cowboi on September 02, 2010, 01:50:51 AM
Her nickname is Binks and she is going to use elements from the periodic table to spell it out, complete with the atomic number and the atomic weight just like you'd see on the table itself. The elements are going to be Bismuth for the Bi, Nitrogen for the N, Potassium for the K and Sodium for the S all in their own little boxes lined up. Then under that she will put the phrase Geek Girl, I'm trying to convince her that it should be written in very girly print to make it more "tramp"ish lol.
Sounds nice! Sodium is Na though D: I think you're referring to Sulfur (here I go again ::)) But get some pics up here when it's done! It's original as hell :).
Quote from: Meepit on September 02, 2010, 04:16:43 AM
Sounds nice! Sodium is Na though D: I think you're referring to Sulfur (here I go again ::)) But get some pics up here when it's done! It's original as hell :).
Well this is why she's the smart geeky one lol.
Quote from: Cowboi on September 04, 2010, 08:49:44 PM
Well this is why she's the smart geeky one lol.
Sorry! I didn't mean to nit-pick, but just didn't want anyone to end up tattooing something permanent then having it pointed out and having to redo it. Mis-spelled or incorrect tattoos have been the butt of jokes lately such as: "I'M AWSOME", "Only God can juge me", and most recently Rhianna's "Rebelle Fleur" ::). So sorry if I came off as a bit know-it-all ;D.
Quote from: Binks on September 02, 2010, 01:53:28 AM
There updated my avatar with the basic idea for my tattoo if you want to get an idea of it.
Awesome.
Oh, I request more nerdy pickup lines. They crack me up.
Quote from: Silver on September 05, 2010, 12:30:30 AM
Awesome.
Oh, I request more nerdy pickup lines. They crack me up.
Some good ones to use in the library are:
1.) If you were a book, I'd check YOU out ;).
2.) And the text in that book would be FIIINE print ;). (can be used alone as "If you were text [in a book], you'd be FIIINE print", but I like to use my pick up lines until they're overkill).
Those are great. :laugh: Ever had success?
Quote from: Silver on September 05, 2010, 01:23:50 AM
Those are great. :laugh: Ever had success?
Not the kind I'm after LOL ::) just a couple laughs.
Quote from: Meepit on September 05, 2010, 12:13:13 AM
Sorry! I didn't mean to nit-pick, but just didn't want anyone to end up tattooing something permanent then having it pointed out and having to redo it. Mis-spelled or incorrect tattoos have been the butt of jokes lately such as: "I'M AWSOME", "Only God can juge me", and most recently Rhianna's "Rebelle Fleur" ::). So sorry if I came off as a bit know-it-all ;D.
Please, I live with Bianca... I'm used to it. She's not only a geek, she's a geek with AS. Having someone come across as a know-it-all is a daily thing in our home, I've grown accustomed.
Hmm. Interesting theory, I have no issues with actually doing this, my lower arms move, but I can keep my upper arms completely straight. Although I have done loads of flexibility exercises during my life.
wow, so much for staying on topic ::)
I have one "female" elbow on my right arm, and a "male" elbow on my left arm. My right arm springs away from my body while my left one hangs straight.
That probably explains why i threw like a girl as a young boy.
Quote from: Maylene on September 07, 2010, 11:46:18 PM
wow, so much for staying on topic ::)
This wasn't much of a topic to begin with. :P
Quote from: pheonix on September 08, 2010, 04:34:27 PM
This wasn't much of a topic to begin with. :P
only you had a problem with it. :D
So I tried this. The more I turn my hands forward, the more my arms flare away from my sides. Just to have fun, I asked my boy... friend, to try it. He says he is able to keep his arms at his side as he turns his palms forward.
It's a fun little test. but I don't think it necessarily proves or disproves anything. Though I do like the theory of, "That's why you throw like a girl" XD. Blame it on some weird body thing.
Quote from: SamanthaFLA on September 10, 2010, 01:57:57 PM
So I tried this. The more I turn my hands forward, the more my arms flare away from my sides. Just to have fun, I asked my boy... friend, to try it. He says he is able to keep his arms at his side as he turns his palms forward.
It's a fun little test. but I don't think it necessarily proves or disproves anything. Though I do like the theory of, "That's why you throw like a girl" XD. Blame it on some weird body thing.
we MtFs like to think we may have really tiny spots of brain different to what we should have and it seems that FtMs also have odd bits which indicate that things got a little mixed up on the production line so if our brains got mixed up then we have to accept that other bits also got mixed up.
It used to be that feeling TS was just a nurturing idea but now we know that it is a physical brain thing then we have to accept that TSism may manifest in other physical bits.
Those like pheonix who deny such things as these female elbows are in essence falling back on the old idea of nurturing causing feelings of TSism and as such they could be cured of being TS by reparative therapy and all the sex change clinics shut down.
Quote from: lilacwoman on September 10, 2010, 02:41:14 PM
we MtFs like to think we may have really tiny spots of brain different to what we should have and it seems that FtMs also have odd bits which indicate that things got a little mixed up on the production line so if our brains got mixed up then we have to accept that other bits also got mixed up.
It used to be that feeling TS was just a nurturing idea but now we know that it is a physical brain thing then we have to accept that TSism may manifest in other physical bits.
Those like pheonix who deny such things as these female elbows are in essence falling back on the old idea of nurturing causing feelings of TSism and as such they could be cured of being TS by reparative therapy and all the sex change clinics shut down.
Are you seriously so desperate to have this thread validated that you try to twist my words? I actually addressed the very matter:
Quote from: pheonix on August 30, 2010, 05:38:16 PMCould transexuality be tied to intersex conditions? Potentially. But I doubt the dividing line will be whether arms behave as described. The number of us on the board who are diagnosed with intersex conditions are proof that biology is rarely clean or absolute. Expect the answer to be far more complex and nuanced.
Bring science to this... if determining transsexuals was as simple as "female elbows" there wouldn't be debates regarding the origins of the condition.
It took me a while but now I shall make you
FACE THE COLD UNWAVERING TRUTH OF SCIENCE:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/3btlrxevl3c5g9tm/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/3btlrxevl3c5g9tm/)
QuoteThe mean carrying angle was 12.88°±5.92: 10.97°±4.27 in men and 15.07°±4.95 in women
For those of you unfamiliar with statistics, yes there is a slight difference between male and female, but it is insignificant. In plain English, both 50% of men AND 50% of women fall within a 10 and 15 degree angle. In other words, this would not be a good indicator of gender.