Consider the term Gender Identity Disorder. It is listed in the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the book mental health professionals use to help them with treatment of their patients.
Consider what most of us know. This is NOT a mental disorder. This is a physical condition. Even the DSM says the recommended treatment for transsexuals is changing the physical self, not psychotherapy. So why is it listed as a mental disorder? Egos unable to admit they are wrong?
Right now, for the most part, classification and treatment of gender identity issues are determined by non TG persons, people who have no idea what this really is. And every time they try to treat us their way they find yet another facet of our lives they couldn't see and they retreat to their conventions and discuss how they will treat us. They rarely ask us. Oh, that's right, we're nuts.
It's pretty obvious the powers that be are either clueless or just too proud to admit they are wrong and have been for decades. While these people have tried to classify us as mental cases we have been showing them just how sane we are and that we've known all along what we need.
I guess we are making fools of them. They just can't see it. Yet!
Julie
Hopefully they will remove transsexualism from the DSM when they update it in 2011. Although I don't agree that transsexualism is a mental disorder, I must say that this diagnosis has helped several TS people in the past, for they have been able to keep their jobs and get state benefits based on this mental illness. I don't know if this has been the case nationwide, but in California, I've seen it happen many times. Sadly, it only lasted for a limited period of time since some people were abusing the system as usual.
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
QuoteConsider what most of us know. This is NOT a mental disorder. This is a physical condition. Even the DSM says the recommended treatment for transsexuals is changing the physical self, not psychotherapy. So why is it listed as a mental disorder? Egos unable to admit they are wrong?
Correction - what most of us believe There is no physical illness or physiological evidence to prove conclusively that transsexualism exists anywhere other than the mind, anymore than a person suffering from body dysmorphia believes they were born with an incorrect body.
Trying to describe transsexualism as a physical condition and for example (see another recent thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,8355.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,8355.0.html)) threatening to mutilate onself if 'required' treatment is not administered merely solidifies the opinion that it is a mental disorder. In other words, if one 'acts insane', one can expect to be treated as such*
QuoteRight now, for the most part, classification and treatment of gender identity issues are determined by non TG persons, people who have no idea what this really is. And every time they try to treat us their way they find yet another facet of our lives they couldn't see and they retreat to their conventions and discuss how they will treat us. They rarely ask us. Oh, that's right, we're nuts.
Would we rather that all classification and treatment be determined by TG people? In case it bore repeating, the DSM does not make diagnoses for people. It is based on the work that has already taken place in the medical profession, helping and treating people such as the very TG folks here at Susans. It is a guideline at best.
*To clarify - I am not labelling anyone insane - I am merely commenting on the manner in which one's problems are presented.
Quote from: Melissa on July 02, 2006, 11:18:51 PM
I wouldn't describe it as mentally ill either. I would describe transitioning as making changes in order to feel more comfortable with yourself which was caused by a condition of having a different body than you feel you should have. It's the differences between what you are and what you had that create the dysphoria. In other words, the dysphoria is a mental condition that is indirectly caused by having the wrong body. We are not working to cure the dysphoria itself (which is mental), but rather the cause of the dysphoria (which is physical). Since we are not mentally ill to begin with, the dysphoria will subside as a result.
Melissa
Quote...and don't criticize what you can't understand,
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command,
Your old road is rapidly agin',
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand,
For the times they are a-changin'.
What a lovely signature! a song? poem? Oops! sorry, I'm way off topic again. :)
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tinkerbell on December 11, 2006, 12:35:10 AM
Quote...and don't criticize what you can't understand,
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command,
Your old road is rapidly agin',
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand,
For the times they are a-changin'.
What a lovely signature! a song? poem? Oops! sorry, I'm way off topic again. :)
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Bob Dylan
Julie,
Personally, I agree with you in so many ways. But let me tell you something. We all desperately need therapy as we find our way. Some of us are absolutely looney. The need for therapy is absolutely real.
Cindi
Quote from: bananaslug on December 11, 2006, 12:22:26 AM
Quote
Consider what most of us know. This is NOT a mental disorder. This is a physical condition. Even the DSM says the recommended treatment for transsexuals is changing the physical self, not psychotherapy.
Correction - what most of us believe There is no physical illness or physiological evidence to prove conclusively that transexualism exists anywhere other than the mind, anymore than a person suffering from body dysmorphia believes they were born with an incorrect body.
Your statement is incorrect. There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that proves transsexualism exists in the mind.
In spite of all the studies done, in spite of all the 'patients' treated, there is also no conclusive evidence that anything other than changing the physical self solves the dysphoria. And mental health professionals who specialize in gender identity issues, all over the world, agree. That indicates the condition is physical and not mental.
Further proof indicating this may be physical comes from a study done to measure a chemical on the brain called BTSc. The study included heterosexual males, homosexual males, MTF transsexuals and females. This chemical in the brains of males is considerably higher than in females. There was no difference between heterosexual and homosexual males. But the levels in MTF transsexuals was the same or less than that of natal females. This is not considered conclusive but it does give way to the probability that there is a physical reason for mind-body gender conflict.Quote from: bananaslug on December 11, 2006, 12:22:26 AMWould we rather that all classification and treatment be determined by TG people? In case it bore repeating, the DSM does not make diagnoses for people. It is based on the work that has already taken place in the medical profession, helping and treating people such as the very TG folks here at Susans. It is a guideline at best.
If you were to go seek marriage counseling would you go to a counselor who has never been married in his/her life and who has learned everything about marriage through people who may have treated married couples but have never been married themselves? Or would you rather go to someone who can relate, someone who knows what it's like to be married, someone who has learned from others who have been married?
Including TGs, not as Guinea pigs but as contributors, in the studies and the process of establishing guidelines is just common sense. Not all TGs are capable of providing beneficial input and neither are all therapists. One only needs to be able to view this objectively. This isn't rocket science. It's simple logic. Take the people who KNOW the life and have shown they are level headed, clear thinkers and LISTEN to them. It doesn't take a PhD in psychology to apply common sense.Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on December 11, 2006, 01:21:07 AMJulie,
Personally, I agree with you in so many ways. But let me tell you something. We all desperately need therapy as we find our way. Some of us are absolutely looney. The need for therapy is absolutely real.
Cindi
You're right Cindi. For some this is absolutely true. But on the other hand, the same can be said for the general population. I've met more mainstreamers who I felt could benefit from therapy than I can count. And when assessing a TGs need for therapy we also have to consider we were born into a society that refuses to accept us for who we are and that pressures us to conform to a lifestyle we feel uncomfortable with. That alone would drive anyone into therapy.
If one were to sit back and imagine a world where people were accepted for who they are, without prejudice, without persecution, without discrimination. (For the Devil's Advocates: Do I need to add as long as we do no harm to others?) If we lived in this world would there even be any debate about this? This forum wouldn't exist because there would be no need for it. 'Gender' wouldn't be an adjective for 'therapist'. Change society to be accepting and open minded and virtually all the problems vanish.
This isn't a mental disorder, it's a societal snafu.
Julie
Many "mental" illness have a strong foundation in biological abnormalities, i.e. excessive action of dopamine in the is implicated in schizophrenia, lack of serotonin re-uptake is believed prevalent in major depressive disorder. This hasn't been definitively proven, however.
It just seems like understanding of psychological illness is working backward...where symptoms seem to be an illness of the mental state, but are actually a result of a physicological state. I feel confident that all of the "mental" illlnesses will become classified as physical disorders eventually. Now, how long that will take is a completely different story.
Just my two cents!
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 11, 2006, 08:23:03 AMFurther proof indicating this may be physical comes from a study done to measure a chemical on the brain called BTSc.
Actually the BSTc is a region of the brain, not a chemical. (In fact, I have the link to the article.) If all it took was a chemical to turn the brain male then that'd be the usual treatment (scary thought IMO!) but it's actually in how we're wired.
So it's really a physiological mismatch between brain and body, not just mind and body.
From what I understand of psychology, the patient is someone who is not functioning well as a person and give them whatever is necessary to help them become functional. Even if the condition itself is not cured; I've heard of people with hallucinations (this is just an example - not comparing here) who live their lives continuing to hallucinate because as long as they recognize what isn't real they know what to ignore. So even if some professionals believe (and I don't know whether they really do or not, but just saying hypothetically if) that we're crazy, at least the empirical evidence shows that when we're allowed to change our bodies we generally become able to function. I suspect that may be why GID is still in the DSM.
Quote from: angelsgirl on December 11, 2006, 09:56:02 AM
lack of serotonin re-uptake is believed prevalent in major depressive disorder.
I believe it's actually excessive serotonin re-uptake that is the cause. SSRI's (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) actually limit the amount that it reuptaken.
Melissa
I was never Mentally or Physically Ill.... I corrected a mistake of nature. How it occured may eventually be known but society need to accept that this happens.
There are no experts in GID, to be an expert you have to experience and live with the pain... I feel the same about midwives who have not had babies...
Buffy
I do not suffer from GID, I LOVE every minute of it. ;)
Quote from: umop ap!sdn on December 11, 2006, 11:28:22 AM
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 11, 2006, 08:23:03 AMFurther proof indicating this may be physical comes from a study done to measure a chemical on the brain called BTSc.
Actually the BSTc is a region of the brain, not a chemical. (In fact, I have the link to the article.) If all it took was a chemical to turn the brain male then that'd be the usual treatment (scary thought IMO!) but it's actually in how we're wired.
So it's really a physiological mismatch between brain and body, not just mind and body.
From what I understand of psychology, the patient is someone who is not functioning well as a person and give them whatever is necessary to help them become functional. Even if the condition itself is not cured; I've heard of people with hallucinations (this is just an example - not comparing here) who live their lives continuing to hallucinate because as long as they recognize what isn't real they know what to ignore. So even if some professionals believe (and I don't know whether they really do or not, but just saying hypothetically if) that we're crazy, at least the empirical evidence shows that when we're allowed to change our bodies we generally become able to function. I suspect that may be why GID is still in the DSM.
Thanks for the correction. It's been a while since I read the article.
People don't function well in a society that keeps them prisoner, discriminates against them, shows prejudice or hatred towards them or tries to make them something they are not (can we say brainwashing?) That's why I see this as a problem created by society. And, it seems, the so called "experts", by and large, subscribe to society's rules of conforming. These people are supposed to analyze things objectively but if they are influenced strongly by rules which have no basis in logic, how can they ever see the situation for what it is.
That's why I feel we are making fools of them they are making fools of themselves. There will come a time when the 'rules' will be changed to reflect reality but it baffles me why it takes so long. Is it pride? Ego? Or simply a serious inability to walk a mile in someone else's shoes?
Julie
QuoteYour statement is incorrect. There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that proves transsexualism exists in the mind.
You misread my statement. I said there is no conclusive evidence that transsexualism is a physiological disorder. The only thing that makes this condition 'physiological' is the belief, the assumption, that one has a mind that does not match one's body. The body functions perfectly well and it shows no signs of defect so far as the average human body is concerned. In other words, the transsexual individual defers all blame to a non-existent concept of an idealised body.
Regarding brain chemistry and assuming there really is such a thing as a 'female brain', there is no evidence to demonstrate that this necessarily contributes to mind-body conflict.
At best it might indicate that a 'female brain' has a predisposition to certain behaviors/attitudes that are not typical for a 'male brain'. It is a BIG leap to then suggest that the brain contains a genetically preconceived idea of the 'correct' body. Put simply, the MtF Transsexual does not and cannot know what it means to have a natal female body ie to have experienced the physicality of a female body from birth. One cannot conclusively say that their problem is biological.
QuoteIf you were to go seek marriage counseling would you go to a counselor who has never been married in his/her life and who has learned everything about marriage through people who may have treated married couples but have never been married themselves? Or would you rather go to someone who can relate, someone who knows what it's like to be married, someone who has learned from others who have been married?
Including TGs, not as Guinea pigs but as contributors, in the studies and the process of establishing guidelines is just common sense. Not all TGs are capable of providing beneficial input and neither are all therapists. One only needs to be able to view this objectively. This isn't rocket science. It's simple logic. Take the people who KNOW the life and have shown they are level headed, clear thinkers and LISTEN to them. It doesn't take a PhD in psychology to apply common sense.
Must every doctor who treats HIV patients be HIV positive? Must those who treat Alzheimer's and other dementias suffer from the same condition? Must all
Ob/Gyns be female? Must all SRS surgeons undergo SRS themselves?
This makes the assumption that the medical profession is working against Transsexual individuals rather than attempting to work for them. In the end, attempting to discredit doctors and psychiatrists when one does not hear corroborating evidence or conclusions that further one's own beliefs and desires, does the transgendered community more harm than good.
No one is denying TS people their beliefs. No one is saying that the misery they endure is not real. If SRS and hormones can make people's lives more comfortable, then please do go and talk to your therapist, psychiatrist or doctor. What I can't accept is this anti-intellectual stance that seeks to define medical diagnosis, procedure and treatment without the scientific rigor that such a serious issue deserves.
There was a similar thread a while back, and I am going to quote two of the posts here:
Quote from: DawnL on August 27, 2006, 08:46:17 PM
Quote from: elleane on August 27, 2006, 03:33:46 AM
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to exactly what you mean.
I must say that I'm increasingly concerned about the use of the term 'Gender Dysphoria'. An implied incongruity between mind and body.
The mind is not the body - the body is not the mind.
Apples and oranges.
If you are suggesting that one is 'born into the wrong body'; that somehow one's physical attributes are incorrect and that surgical alteration is the solution, then in my mind that lies far nearer body dysmorphia than gender dysphoria.
(and yes I'm aware of the body of work that is oft quoted/referenced, largely by the TS community, to dispute this notion)
elleane
xxx
Wow! "The mind is not the body - the body is not the mind. Apples and oranges."
Funny, they're all connected together, more like the apple and the tree or the orange and the tree than apples and oranges. Your metaphor is suspect and very inflammatory. Body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria. Maybe they're the same thing. One can have many body dysmorphias but perhaps when gender is involved, gender dysphoria is the result, maybe a subset of body dysmorphia. Fact is, they're all stupid labels. If a man or woman is considering ending their life because of a life-long dysphoria/dysmorphia, I don't really care what you call it, and if surgery is the cure, then surgery is the cure, the same for a heart bypass patient--the body of work that is oft quoted/referenced, largely by the non-TS, doubting, bigoted community aside.
Dawn
Quote from: Steph on August 27, 2006, 11:09:41 AM
I'm sorry but if feel that this is another example of those who do not understand TS/who cannot possibly be expected to understand what TS are, what makes us tick trying to define "Us". I find it quite interesting that people have this need to explain to me how I feel, and how I should feel about my body, my mind and any other "thing" that causes my disphoria, if that is in fact what I have.
I think it is safe to say that we transsexuals have endured several hundred years of collective therapy and yet the only viable explanation is that "body of work that is oft quoted/referenced, largely by the TS community", and why shouldn't we as TS use that body of work. I find the remark "Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to exactly what you mean. " a little typical of someone who is not TS as "An implied incongruity between mind and body." seems imply that we don't know what we are talking about. Of course "The mind is not the body - the body is not the mind." we are talking about the congruency between the two (in agreement with, or in harmony with) that is the disphoria.
Steph
You can see the rest of the posts here (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,5817.0.html)
BananaSlug, you made excellent points in your post; however, as a transsexual woman myself, all I can say is that the human mind is more complex than whatever is written on a medical journal. Sometimes we just can't categorize what we are or what we feel in black and white, especially when we talk about gender, for its complexities are beyond what we can sometimes comprehend. :)
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Quote from: bananaslug on December 11, 2006, 11:10:43 PMIt is a BIG leap to then suggest that the brain contains a genetically preconceived idea of the 'correct' body.
Not necessarily. I don't see any reason why it would be
genetic per se, but there is already evidence that the brain is wired to "expect" specific anatomical features. For example, amputees report that they can still feel their limbs; their brains "expect" them to still be there. A region of the brain has been found that, when it is damaged in patients who have had strokes or other lesions to that area, produces the opposite phenomenon: a limb becomes foreign to the patient, and they insist it's someone else's. Given that information, it isn't such a farfetched idea that brains might be sex differentiated, expecting one or the other suite of primary and secondary characteristics.
Thank you Tinkerbell for pointing me to that thread. I found it quite enlightening.
Two words come to mind:- Good Lord!
It's the gospel according to Transsexualism!
I cannot believe what I am hearing from people who claim to be enlightened regarding their gender and body.
Only TS people can understand what TS means and only TS people know how they should be treated.
Here endeth the lesson?
Posted on: December 12, 2006, 01:07:16 AM
Quote from: umop ap!sdn on December 12, 2006, 12:55:43 AMQuote from: bananaslug on December 11, 2006, 11:10:43 PMIt is a BIG leap to then suggest that the brain contains a genetically preconceived idea of the 'correct' body.
Not necessarily. I don't see any reason why it would be genetic per se, but there is already evidence that the brain is wired to "expect" specific anatomical features. For example, amputees report that they can still feel their limbs; their brains "expect" them to still be there. A region of the brain has been found that, when it is damaged in patients who have had strokes or other lesions to that area, produces the opposite phenomenon: a limb becomes foreign to the patient, and they insist it's someone else's. Given that information, it isn't such a farfetched idea that brains might be sex differentiated, expecting one or the other suite of primary and secondary characteristics.
It is one thing to argue in the case of an amputee but another entirely to discuss a body which never existed in the first place. You cannot say that you *should* have been born in the correct body if there is no previous knowledge of how that correct body exists in the mind's eye. If the premise is that one has the incorrect brain for the body, one must ask why it seems that the transition process, the day-to-day trials and tribulations of the TS person with all their physical changes and efforts to 'pass' seem to be such a difficult part of RLT. Or do we blame that on society?
A female body may be more comfortable for whatever reasons to the MtF transsexual but to say that their male body is a birth defect is a big leap.
bannanaslug, if you need conclusive evidence for everything in your life before you accept it then be prepared for a life of cynicism. The analogies you've given can be debated endlessly because we are all unique creatures. What applies for one person may not apply for any other person on this earth.
The general consensus is non-TS persons have no idea what it's like being TS. You can argue that until you're blue in the face but practically every TS person will tell you're wrong. When sane. logical transsexual people tell the medical and mental health professionals they need to re-evaluate their treatment of transsexuals, the professionals, if they care at all about helping their patients, need to listen and then take action to correct their treatment.
The mind is a very complex and misunderstood part of us. People can be in therapy for years before they get to the bottom of what's bothering them. If you went to a doctor for a physical ailment how long would you continue treatment that showed no results before finding another doctor?
We KNOW what's bothering us. We KNOW what the solution is. It's been proven time and time again. When you find a cure, use it! To further complicate matters by saying we "think" or "believe" is counter productive. You may think or you may believe but we know! And you can write all the words you wish to convince us you're right but it will fall on deaf ears.
When you're thirsty, drink water. If someone tells you water doesn't cure thirst you'll probably laugh in their face.
Julie
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AMYou cannot say that you *should* have been born in the correct body if there is no previous knowledge of how that correct body exists in the mind's eye.
I disagree. :) You seem to be saying that one cannot assert that a person's brain is ideally suited to specific anatomical features until and unless that brain receives genuine sensory input from exactly such features. In fact, that just doesn't follow.
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AM
You cannot say that you *should* have been born in the correct body if there is no previous knowledge of how that correct body exists in the mind's eye.
Then please explain why transsexuals are so much happier living in their correct bodies. If what you say is true, they would actually be feeling worse.
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AM
If the premise is that one has the incorrect brain for the body, one must ask why it seems that the transition process, the day-to-day trials and tribulations of the TS person with all their physical changes and efforts to 'pass' seem to be such a difficult part of RLT.
Au contraire, I find daily living as a female so much easier. The "day-to-day trials and tribulations" were back when I was living as male. Now it's easy. I just be myself.
Melissa
Quote from: umop ap!sdn on December 12, 2006, 10:34:46 AMQuote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AMYou cannot say that you *should* have been born in the correct body if there is no previous knowledge of how that correct body exists in the mind's eye.
I disagree. :) You seem to be saying that one cannot assert that a person's brain is ideally suited to specific anatomical features until and unless that brain receives genuine sensory input from exactly such features. In fact, that just doesn't follow.
No I am saying that the brain forms a mental map of the body according to the body it exists in - this is a process that occurs right from the development of the foetus in the womb. The brain cannot form a mental map of a body that does not exist.
The phantom limb sensations that an amputee experiences are logically explained by the neural pathways that were formed while the limb was still intact.
While it's also possible that people born without certain limbs can experience sensation due to nerve endings that trigger areas of the brain, it is still a leap to suggest that they feel they 'should have been born with said limb'. The sensations they experience are typically those of sharp pain.
This does not match with the case of transsexual people where they assert an entire body dysmorphia. The MtF, for example, is not experiencing the physicality of a female body but rather feels that they should have been born with a female body.
QuoteYou seem to be saying that one cannot assert that a person's brain is ideally suited to specific anatomical features until and unless that brain receives genuine sensory input from exactly such features. In fact, that just doesn't follow.
The brain is very complicated. While the brain does control all activities of the body, when a baby is learning to grab things and crawl the brain is actually forming new neural pathways in order to fine-tune the process (gross and fine motor skill development), but in other areas (breathing, for instance) the neural pathways are in place (for obvious reasons! :)) The fact of the matter is that there is too much still unknown about the brain to determine which idea is right or wrong.
However, I do like to speculate on things when I learn something new until I learn something else new. ;)
With that said, I do know that some post-mortem brain studies have indicated that some areas of the brain show structural differences among men and women, but that there hasn't been enough study to reach a conclusion on the area. There may be a good chance that there are "male" and "female" wired brains. It is my personal opinion that there are because that makes sense to me. But it's only my opinion. ;)
Posted on: December 12, 2006, 02:27:34 PM
QuoteQuote from: angelsgirl on Yesterday at 09:56:02 AM
lack of serotonin re-uptake is believed prevalent in major depressive disorder.
I believe it's actually excessive serotonin re-uptake that is the cause. SSRI's (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) actually limit the amount that it reuptaken.
Melissa
Oops...I meant to say lack of serotonin...is reuptaken a word? >:D
Quote from: Melissa on December 12, 2006, 10:51:20 AMQuote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AMYou cannot say that you *should* have been born in the correct body if there is no previous knowledge of how that correct body exists in the mind's eye.
Then please explain why transsexuals are so much happier living in their correct bodies. If what you say is true, they would actually be feeling worse.
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 01:21:52 AM If the premise is that one has the incorrect brain for the body, one must ask why it seems that the transition process, the day-to-day trials and tribulations of the TS person with all their physical changes and efforts to 'pass' seem to be such a difficult part of RLT.
Au contraire, I find daily living as a female so much easier. The "day-to-day trials and tribulations" were back when I was living as male. Now it's easy. I just be myself.
Melissa
I don't know Melissa - you tell me!
As far as I can gather from the posts here on the forums, Transsexuals base their entire discomfort on 'living in the wrong body' - lo and behold when they receive surgical alterations, their discomfort is removed.
The truth is they are still living in the same body albeit with certain modifications. The post-op MtF, for example, does not have a natal female body.
According to the supposition that Transsexualism is a biological condition, nothing short of a time machine and hormonal treatment during the development of the foetus can truly satisfy him/her. If anything, this post-operative contentment further solidifies the opinion this is a mental condition NOT a biological one.
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:37:33 PM
I don't know Melissa - you tell me!
Simple, because your logic is flawed.
Melissa
QuoteI don't know Melissa - you tell me!
It would seem to me that she just did!
QuoteAccording to the supposition that Transsexualism is a biological condition, nothing short of a time machine and hormonal treatment during the development of the foetus can truly satisfy him/her. If anything, this post-operative contentment further solidifies the opinion this is a mental condition NOT a biological one.
Some people get nose jobs because they feel too insecure about the natural size of their nose. Having an oversized nose is a biological condition (determined in the genes), so when they have plastic surgery to make their nose look better they are usually happy about it. If you're oh so right about this like you think you are, then nothing short of having been born with the right size nose would be enough for these people.
Why is it so important to you that TSism be a mental disorder?
Mental disorders are caused in part by biological factors, so it's probably a combination of things like so many things are.
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 12, 2006, 09:22:14 AMbannanaslug, if you need conclusive evidence for everything in your life before you accept it then be prepared for a life of cynicism. The analogies you've given can be debated endlessly because we are all unique creatures. What applies for one person may not apply for any other person on this earth.
The general consensus is non-TS persons have no idea what it's like being TS. You can argue that until you're blue in the face but practically every TS person will tell you're wrong. When sane. logical transsexual people tell the medical and mental health professionals they need to re-evaluate their treatment of transsexuals, the professionals, if they care at all about helping their patients, need to listen and then take action to correct their treatment.
The mind is a very complex and misunderstood part of us. People can be in therapy for years before they get to the bottom of what's bothering them. If you went to a doctor for a physical ailment how long would you continue treatment that showed no results before finding another doctor?
We KNOW what's bothering us. We KNOW what the solution is. It's been proven time and time again. When you find a cure, use it! To further complicate matters by saying we "think" or "believe" is counter productive. You may think or you may believe but we know! And you can write all the words you wish to convince us you're right but it will fall on deaf ears.
When you're thirsty, drink water. If someone tells you water doesn't cure thirst you'll probably laugh in their face.
Julie
I'm not telling you what to think - I'm putting what you 'know' in context and how the rest of the world sees these issues (you may have heard of them:- the other 99 something percent of the world?). You may not care what 'we' think, but if you want to work WITH us rather than 'closing rank' and saying 'only TS people understand these issues', you may want to reconsider your position.
I have no problems with TS people obtaining SRS, transitioning or doing whatever they feel they need to alleviate their condition. If that's the 'water' that you need then please go, drink!
My genuine interest in the issues surrounding Transsexualism are met with a front of 'you're not one of us'. I'm sure I'm not the first one, and I doubt I'll be the last. At least, I can say I tried.
Quote from: systemWarning: topic is currently/will be locked!
Only admins and moderators can reply.
I know, but I will take advantage of my "powers" >:D
so, the topic is now locked....thank you! ;D
I was beginning to grow green hair reading some of the posts here...LOL
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
The topic has been unlocked. Everyone please play nice.
beth
For the record, I've never been given the "you're not one of us" treatment from anybody here. Other than that, I'm done with this topic.
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:51:22 PMI'm not telling you what to think - I'm putting what you 'know' in context and how the rest of the world sees these issues (you may have heard of them:- the other 99 something percent of the world?).
People, about 99% of them, once saw the world as being flat. Those who traveled the oceans KNEW that wasn't true. By your logic, the world would be flat because that's what most people believed. It wasn't until people opened their minds to other possibilities that they came to accept the world was round.Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:51:22 PMYou may not care what 'we' think, but if you want to work WITH us rather than 'closing rank' and saying 'only TS people understand these issues', you may want to reconsider your position.
If a woman came up to a man and said, "You will never understand what it's like to have a period, to be pregnant, to go through childbirth" would you say she is closing rank? Would you tell her to reconsider her position?
You can read about the people who climbed Mt. Everest, who saw their friends freeze to death, who endured bitter cold, who thought they were going to die. And when they tell you you'll never understand what it was like are they too closing ranks on you?
Sometimes you have to live it to truly understand it.Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:51:22 PMMy genuine interest in the issues surrounding Transsexualism are met with a front of 'you're not one of us'.
Your reaction comes from your interpretation. I have never seen the words, "you're not one of us" written here nor have I ever heard any TS person say they feel that way. I have heard "they don't understand" and it's true. Your posts here prove that.
But I have to ask, what is your genuine interest? From what you've written here I can't find a genuine interest related to advancing transgender issues in a positive light. Maybe your 'genuine interest' has nothing to do with resolving the problems we face. Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:51:22 PMAt least, I can say I tried.
What does that mean? I didn't see any effort on your part to try to understand the people who responded to you. All I saw was you trying to convince everyone else your way of thinking was right. That's not what I'd call trying.
I have no problem debating issues like this with anyone as long as the person I'm debating with has at least a sliver of an open mind. But to debate anything with a closed minded person is a waste of time. If you knew my past you'd know better where I'm coming from. Believe it or not I once thought much like you, even though I knew deep down I was TS. Denial helped me stay blind. So I know where you're coming from. Had I not had that experience I probably would have considered you hopelessly myopic.
Getting back on topic, I think what I've seen so far indicates we feel mainstream society doesn't understand us and some just don't want to. Many doctors and therapists who treat us for TG related issues would categorize themselves as being main-streamers. Does that mean they don't understand us? Possibly. And if that possibility exists then we have work to do. We have get them to listen to us.
The only way I know to accomplish that is just keep in their ear.
Julie
My vacation is going just fine... ;D
If we could just harness the heat when these topics get a little out of hand... >:D
My thoughts--
For now, GID as outlined in the DSM IV serves a purpose. I'm using it to keep some, shall we say, 'forces' at bay. Because my 'condition' is defined as medical not moral, I can transition at work unmolested by a very few who would throw the 'good book' at me for being an immoral, demon-infested chooser of an evil lifestyle. Instead, thanks to the DSM IV and my 'diagnosis' of GID, and the fact that this diagnosis legally absolves me of moral wrongdoing, these few people are held in check from 'doing their moral duty' to 'balance society's moral books'. Of course, they are watching me like a hawk, waiting to play the game, "Now I Got You You Son-Of-a-B****!" ('NIGYSOB', in Transactional Analysis-speak.)
Is it an illness? Really, no. Is it a lifestyle choice? That has been discussed in this forum, and I have (finally) chosen to exit the burning building, even though society was telling me I was born in that building and 'had' to stay there.
Society says you don't hit girls, people with glasses, cripples, retards, and others with something 'disabling'. GID being labeled an illness DOES help protect us from some of the excesses of society, even if it does ruffle the feathers of a portion of our community.
Karen
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:37:33 PMIf anything, this post-operative contentment further solidifies the opinion this is a mental condition NOT a biological one.
What does it being a "mental condition"
mean though? What would be an example of a purely mental explanation?
My friend and I have kicked this around endlessly, and we're just not coming up with much by way of explanations. For myself, I've never known a moment without GID. It didn't suddenly appear in puberty, or after being ignored by my father, or... after any socialization events. I can clearly remember it being present by at least three or four. I clearly and distinctly knew from the very beginning that I should have been born a girl. There just wasn't much time before that for a poor upbringing to "cause" these feelings though.
I've read up on theories such as ->-bleeped-<-, and to be sure, there are some interesting correlations. But it seems more a description of how GID plays out, and how a woman's heterosexuality becomes seriously complicated and frustrated when trapped within a male body. And as with any "mental condition" explanation, I always come back to the fact that this was ALWAYS there for me. There were no prompting events. I suppose something could have happened before three, but geez... I don't know if my thought patterns were sophisticated enough by then to program them with something as complex and contradictory as GID.
And even if it's some sort of "choice" somehow, then you have to ask yourself why only a small subset of males would prefer to become female. What causes that preference? And now you're right back where we were... looking for a root cause of those feelings.
In the end though, it sadly doesn't matter. Even if it's proven to me that there is no physical cause, and that I'm really just some sexual pervert, I STILL have to transition in order to find some sort of sanity in this world. The feelings of GID are just not accessible by reason. No amount of explaining will make them go away. The torture remains regardless of the original cause, and must me addressed at some point in order to live a fulfilling, loving and productive life.
So it seems the consensus of opinion from this thread is that if you don't adopt 'our' beliefs as fact, 100%, you don't understand 'us'.
I'm truly sorry I ever tried to discuss this from an alternative point of view. This thread has been enlightening, to say the least. How transsexual people feel was never in doubt but this has been a confirmation for me, how some wish to present and be perceived.
The lesson has been learned.
Elleane cut the crap. I am not gonna let you come on and create an intentional disruption on my site. Did you think changing your name to Bananaslug and using a fake email fooled us for one second? So if you don't settle down and behave, you will be removed once again and a complaint about your activities sent to Bellsouth. Your smite has been removed from Julie Marie and added to your account x5!
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:37:33 PMAs far as I can gather from the posts here on the forums, Transsexuals base their entire discomfort on 'living in the wrong body' - lo and behold when they receive surgical alterations, their discomfort is removed.
The truth is they are still living in the same body albeit with certain modifications. The post-op MtF, for example, does not have a natal female body.
According to the supposition that Transsexualism is a biological condition, nothing short of a time machine and hormonal treatment during the development of the foetus can truly satisfy him/her. If anything, this post-operative contentment further solidifies the opinion this is a mental condition NOT a biological one.
BS, I have never considered myself a "woman born in a man's body". I know not what created this thing running in my mind my whole life. But I could not get the thought out. I had to live as a woman. Yes, I did get the surgery. No, it did not make me a biological woman. And yes, that particular problem went away. It has been replaced with other thoughts that run non stop. But they are wonderful thoughts that push me to do all kinds of creative things.
My case certainly does not fall within the bounds of your assesment. I would be happy to further describe my experience. If you have a question, please pose it.
Now... back to the topic of consideration .... As for putting something over on the pros... I ask this question... In which direction flows the money?
;)
Cindi
Quote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:37:33 PMAs far as I can gather from the posts here on the forums, Transsexuals base their entire discomfort on 'living in the wrong body' - lo and behold when they receive surgical alterations, their discomfort is removed.
It is impossible for anyone to make blanket statements about everyone elses experiences, but it does seem to me from my own background and from those of people I know that the emphasis of the discussion is often wrong. I'm happy to be corrected though ;)
SRS is not "the cure" for transsexualism - it is just the final piece of the jigsaw. Put it this way - how many people would be "cured" if they received SRS in secret, and were then told to go home, continue with their lives exactly as they were before, and to never tell anyone what they had done?
Such a scenario would certainly help some people a little, but they would still face all the problems that they did before in having to present as male. Doesn't this then call into question that this is simply a case of "having the wrong body"?
The real cure isn't purely physical (though I am not denying the importance of physical change), but is a combination of many factors, including creating a situation where an individuals gender is accepted by those they interact with. There is a lot more to being female than possessing breasts and a vagina after all!
To the outsider, the focus of the "cure" for transsexualism is SRS. They perceive a group of men saying "I will feel better once a surgeon cuts my penis off", and react to that (perhaps understandably) with confusion and think "they must be mentally deranged!" because they are viewing it in isolation from everything else.
But they can't understand what it is like to be categorised as male, having to live life placed into that role when it is wrong. It is not really the fault of society as it is human nature to categorise everything, but that aspect of human nature can cause huge amounts of pain and torment to an individual viewed and treated as one thing when they are not.
The medical profession are pretty much powerless when it comes to diagnosing GID too. All they can really do is rule out the possibility that the patient is suffering from other things, is reasonably sane, and competent to assert that they are experiencing the problems that they say they are. Maybe one day science will provide an answer as to the cause, along with a diagnostic test etc but that is beyond their capabilities at the moment.
Until then I don't think we are making fools of them, nor they us, because at the end of the day they are accepting our word about the problem and offering us treatment based on that.
So, we have a situation where it is a condition that most people can not relate to the problems it causes, medicine can not provide a black and white diagnosis and the focus of mainstream thought (and the media) is on the "extreme" aspect of the treatment. Is it any wonder that there is so much prejudice and misunderstanding about it?
Personally I believe we would be much better served by moving the focus of mainstream debate about GID away from the body and onto the other problems it causes.
In much the same way that the debate about homosexuality is improved once the focus is away from sex and turned to love and emotions that are more easily understood by most people, which in turn leads to understanding, could the discussion about GID be served by focusing on issues away from body change which the majority of people can relate to better?
Society is broadly tolerant of homosexuals now that it is accepted that people are attracted to and fall in love with the people that they do and they have no choice about it (and that love naturally leads to it being expressed sexually).
Would people be more accepting and understanding of GID if they understood that people need to be able to relate to themselves and others (and have other people relate to them) in a manner appropriate to their gender, which in turn naturally leads to people requiring their bodies to be altered to "fit" on occasions?
No 'intentional disruption' or deception of any kind was intended.
My sincere apologies to all who have seen it as such.
Posted on: December 14, 2006, 09:11:17 AM
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on December 14, 2006, 12:34:11 AMQuote from: bananaslug on December 12, 2006, 02:37:33 PMAs far as I can gather from the posts here on the forums, Transsexuals base their entire discomfort on 'living in the wrong body' - lo and behold when they receive surgical alterations, their discomfort is removed.
The truth is they are still living in the same body albeit with certain modifications. The post-op MtF, for example, does not have a natal female body.
According to the supposition that Transsexualism is a biological condition, nothing short of a time machine and hormonal treatment during the development of the foetus can truly satisfy him/her. If anything, this post-operative contentment further solidifies the opinion this is a mental condition NOT a biological one.
BS, I have never considered myself a "woman born in a man's body". I know not what created this thing running in my mind my whole life. But I could not get the thought out. I had to live as a woman. Yes, I did get the surgery. No, it did not make me a biological woman. And yes, that particular problem went away. It has been replaced with other thoughts that run non stop. But they are wonderful thoughts that push me to do all kinds of creative things.
My case certainly does not fall within the bounds of your assesment. I would be happy to further describe my experience. If you have a question, please pose it.
Now... back to the topic of consideration .... As for putting something over on the pros... I ask this question... In which direction flows the money?
;)
Cindi
Thanks Cindi - I was kinda trying to form an idea of Transsexualism based on what others had written. It sounds like your experience is somewhat different. I'm intrigued, if you did not feel 'a woman in a man's body' - what were your feelings? One assumes they were strong enough to motivate you towards SRS
- how did you know that SRS/transition was the solution?
quote from justelleane/elleane/bananaslugQuoteNo 'intentional disruption' or deception of any kind was intended.
My sincere apologies to all who have seen it as such.
No intentional deception? What about pretending in your introduction to just happen to find this site thru a link from wikipedia?
QuoteAnyway, I noticed a link from wikipedia to the androgyne forums here and I must say I'm impressed! Been reading some of the articles there.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,7151.msg54771.html#msg54771
I knew from the moment you registered (2 minutes after trying to sign on twice with your banned username) who you were.
beth
My apologies once again to all who feel there has been some 'deception' on my part. Please PM or email me and I am sure you will realise this is a misunderstanding. The quote from my introduction is certainly no lie. There was no mention there of 'chancing upon this site'. My interest in gender issues and transsexualism is very genuine and I was delighted to find the aforementioned wikipedia link.
Regarding Transsexualism - is this something that we (TS and non-TS alike) can never truly fully understand? In other words is this a moot exercise to try and understand transsexualism?
I would like to thank all those (esp. Jenny, Kate, Cindianna Jones) who have already shared their experiences and thoughts. The richness of input on this subject ultimately goes towards a better appreciation, if not understanding of the subject.
Quote from: bananaslug on December 14, 2006, 11:04:53 AMRegarding Transsexualism - is this something that we (TS and non-TS alike) can never truly fully understand? In other words is this a moot exercise to try and understand transsexualism?
Oh, I think that it is within the realm of understanding. As a society, we need to apply some resources to the problem, and I think it's possible to resolve. But until we are interested in doing that as a society, there seem to be other problems that seem more important and require more immediate attention..... like flushing money away for external conflict. Even if it were not for that, there are other more pressing problems to work on, I believe. For the time being, we have a solution that pretty much works for us. Is it ideal? No. But, it pretty much works.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on December 14, 2006, 11:52:44 AMQuote from: bananaslug on December 14, 2006, 11:04:53 AMRegarding Transsexualism - is this something that we (TS and non-TS alike) can never truly fully understand? In other words is this a moot exercise to try and understand transsexualism?
Oh, I think that it is within the realm of understanding. As a society, we need to apply some resources to the problem, and I think it's possible to resolve. But until we are interested in doing that as a society, there seem to be other problems that seem more important and require more immediate attention..... like flushing money away for external conflict. Even if it were not for that, there are other more pressing problems to work on, I believe. For the time being, we have a solution that pretty much works for us. Is it ideal? No. But, it pretty much works.
Cindi
I can get on board with that. Society is still very much shaking off the legacy of a community divided by the sexes and gender (not to mention race, religion, sexual-orientation etc. etc.) Much progress has been made, I believe there is much still to come.
Quote from: Karen on December 13, 2006, 01:59:05 PMAs for putting something over on the pros... I ask this question... In which direction flows the money?
;)
Cindi
Yeah Cindi, I have thought about that too. But if transsexualism were dropped from the DSM and considered a physical condition that requires medical intervention, I'm sure we would still have to go through psychoanalysis, although not a lifetime of it. And if insurance covered any of the surgeries, more TSs could have it so the medical community would benefit. But then I suppose the insurance companies would fight that.
Julie
Quote from: Julie Marie on December 14, 2006, 12:37:00 PM
Yeah Cindi, I have thought about that too. But if transsexualism were dropped from the DSM and considered a physical condition that requires medical intervention, I'm sure we would still have to go through psychoanalysis, although not a lifetime of it. And if insurance covered any of the surgeries, more TSs could have it so the medical community would benefit. But then I suppose the insurance companies would fight that.
Julie
I truly feel for those who do get stuck in a lifetime of therapy. There are a lot of external pressures weighed upon us for what we are. And the therapy helps us deal with that load of garbage. Once we can bag that up and dispose of it, there shouldn't be much more therapy reaquired.... Hmmm... sounds like an interesting poll is coming up.
Cindi
Edit: Moving Cindi's reply outside Julie's quote... ;) Karen
Quote from: Karen on December 13, 2006, 01:59:05 PMFor now, GID as outlined in the DSM IV serves a purpose. I'm using it to keep some, shall we say, 'forces' at bay. Because my 'condition' is defined as medical not moral, I can transition at work unmolested by a very few who would throw the 'good book' at me for being an immoral, demon-infested chooser of an evil lifestyle. Instead, thanks to the DSM IV and my 'diagnosis' of GID, and the fact that this diagnosis legally absolves me of moral wrongdoing, these few people are held in check from 'doing their moral duty' to 'balance society's moral books'. Of course, they are watching me like a hawk, waiting to play the game, "Now I Got You You Son-Of-a-B****!" ('NIGYSOB', in Transactional Analysis-speak.)
Is it an illness? Really, no. Is it a lifestyle choice? That has been discussed in this forum, and I have (finally) chosen to exit the burning building, even though society was telling me I was born in that building and 'had' to stay there.
Society says you don't hit girls, people with glasses, cripples, retards, and others with something 'disabling'. GID being labeled an illness DOES help protect us from some of the excesses of society, even if it does ruffle the feathers of a portion of our community.
Karen
Karen, I already had responded to your post but I must have messed up since I don't see it here. Anyway...
If transsexualism was dropped from the DSM, and instead considered a physical condition that requires medical intervention, then not only would the general public no longer have something to point to to prove this condition is all in our head but we may receive financial support with the medical intervention we need. After all, it's widely treated physically, not mentally so why list it as a mental disorder? We may have to go through therapy to prove we are transsexual but once the diagnosis is made our bodies are treated. Our 'mental' problems then subside.
If this were to happen I feel it would only be a matter of time before certain necessary surgeries would be covered by insurance. As far as protection from discrimination, gays and lesbians already enjoy that in many areas and homosexuality is no longer listed in the DSM. So I don't think you would lose any of the benefits you now receive and, possibly, you may end with more.
In the world I grew up in I heard over and over comments about people who were considered 'mental'. The image I had was of someone you don't want to associate with, someone you want to avoid at all costs because you never know when they will flip out on you. A lot of that stigma still exists today. If transsexualism is listed in the DSM as a mental disorder people will be more likely to treat us as being 'mental'. And the negative stigma will persist. How many of us, when we announce we are transitioning, have heard, "Are you nuts?" or some other comment referring to our sanity?
Being transgender is socially unacceptable. That's it, nothing more. Other societies have existed where being TG was seen as a gift. Native Americans revered transgender members of their tribe. The only exception is the warring tribes like the Sioux, Comanche and Apache. (I guess that tells you something.) The settlers came to this country and changed that. No reason except that is what they believed. The problem isn't the person, the problem is the society. Exchange conformity, intolerance and prejudice with individuality, tolerance and acceptance and we will find ourselves in a much better world, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
The mental health professionals need to realize this is not a mental disorder. I will never say I have GID because the "D" stands for disorder, a menal disorder. My mind is fine. I have been through therapy, twice, and both therapists will tell you I have no mental disorders. My family and friends will agree. I think most of us would say the same thing. So if the mental health professionals feel we are sane, reasonable people, then why keep transsexualism listed as a mental disorder? My only problem was and is I live in an intolerant society ignorant about what transsexualism really is.
It's time for a change.
Julie
Julie, I know a few folks like you who don't really need the therapy. I don't think that I did. Shoot... when I go to the doctor, I usually tell him what's wrong and what I need from him. Most of my medical visits are like that.
I also know that the therapy most of us need is to deal with the issues surrounding "our condition".
And then there are many who are just totally screwed up from the pressure and pain of it all. They really need the help.
I'll agree with you whole heartidly that the way it is currently handled is dated. It would be nice to get medical covereage for it. I'd be happy right now if everyone could get basic health care.
I can only see how the way the system works related to my experience. I sorely needed phsyciatric help for a couple of months of my life. I'm thankful that I had the wherewithall to recognize that need and seek help.
So kiddo... Yea... like that... you have a valid point. What's the next step? How do we prove your's and my opinion that the condition is not a mental one? We don't even know what causes it. And how do we get someone to listen. I pose the question because perhaps, just perhaps, we might really be able to do something wonderful.
Cindi
Hi, Julie!
Thank you for reposting that. I do agree with your point of view. My point was, odious as a 'mental illness' diagnosis is, it confers an advantage I find useful in a limited but vital situation. As there is yet no "this person is not crazy, what they are doing is perfectly natural, now leave them alone!" non-mental medical diagnosis, I must take what I can get to shield me from an authority at work who would see me drop-kicked out for my 'deviant, selfish, immoral behaviour.'
I always thought the 'D' in GID stood for Disphoria -- the antithesis of Euphoria. I never believed it was a disorder -- only that I was or at last had become supremely dissatisfied with trying to maintain a role that I felt an absolute phony-[__] in. So I can say I'm GID, because for me it's an accurate reflection of how I feel -- I don't like/am not happy with the sex my body was born with, and the concurrent gender role that, having been born with a penis, society has forced me to adopt just to be accepted and to 'belong'.
I notice there are a lot more hits for GIDisorder than GIDisphoria, so maybe that's another thing we need to seek to change. But, for now, I know I'm just a disphoric kinda' gal... ;D
Karen
Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on December 14, 2006, 04:38:53 PMHow do we prove your's and my opinion that the condition is not a mental one? We don't even know what causes it. And how do we get someone to listen. I pose the question because perhaps, just perhaps, we might really be able to do something wonderful.
Cindi
Well, I just look at other societies that have existed that accepted TGs totally. Those TGs never had the issues we do today. They lived their life as normal members of society.
The problem is this society sees being TG as a mental disorder. Heck, they see all kinds of differences in people as being a mental disorder or just plain screwed up. I can't blame them, that's what they were taught from the time they were born but it doesn't mean they can't learn.
This society is so hell bent on conformity it blinds them. But we hear things like "Be an individual!" "Follow your heart!" "March to the tune of a different drummer!" Then when people do we castigate them for being different.
That's the problem. And we will only make headway when we point things like this out to them. Maybe most people won't listen. There seems to be a general belief that if most people believe it's right then it is. Like when we used to think the world is flat or that the planets revolved around the earth. People were persecuted and even executed for teaching what we now know is true. That's the message we need to send. Just because the majority believes it to be true doesn't make it so.
Julie
Karen, there's 2 acronyms.
GD = Gender Dysphoria (an older definition, but IMO more accurate)
GID = Gender Identity Disorder
So, I can see how you got confused about that. :)
Melissa
Googling the three terms brought up:
QuoteResults - about 206,000 for "Gender Identity Disorder".
Results - about 157,000 for "Gender Dysphoria".
Results - about 713 for "Gender Identity Dysphoria".
So Disorder wins!
-K
Instead of "Disorder",
I prefer the term:
Disshevled
Stick that one in your bonnet and whistle Dixie.
;)
Cindi
Quoting Cindi:
QuoteInstead of "Disorder",
I prefer the term:
Disshevled
ROFLMA!
As to the thread subject, no expert cashing large checks feels very put upon, and is perfectly willing to take much more of that type of abuse. I don't object to experts making a living, and certainly don't object to whacking them verbally about the head and shoulders. ::)
Susan Kay