The Desire to be Normal
http://everquestingmind.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/the-desire-to-be-normal/ (http://everquestingmind.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/the-desire-to-be-normal/)
by lorelei
9/10/10
I guess in essence this is kinda what transition is all about. No one really grows up thinking "oh, maybe I'll change genders, just for a lark". 'We' have a deep-seated desire, nay, a knowledge even, that some variable in our minds and our preferred methods of social expression are hampered or even prohibited by the strictures of a biology-imposed behaviour system. This desire, or knowledge, will at some stage reach critical level, the point at which disparity between what the mind craves and what our bodies allow us to do in society is overwhelming.
And so we set out to achieve normality, or at the least, as close a resemblance to normality as might be achieved. The downside of this is, that it is all an utter illusion and totally unachievable.
What a great essay!
"I think this is one of the biggest issues facing transpeople, the ability or inability to wholly accept oneself as a transsexual being, and equally as an 'aberrance' of nature."
Yup, the desire to be normal is intense. Since I started transition I've started to thrive a lot better than ever before, but do I honestly accept that what is right for me is so different from what everyone else told me was right for so long?
Now I was born blind, operated upon as a toddler and gained enough eyesight to function well in everyday life. For many years I so desired to be normal that I never told anybody why I didn't recognize their faces and greet my friends, when they greeted me. In stead of making me normal - by not telling them, that I had an impaired eyesight - it made me odd and caused me to become deeply isolated, because when I didn't speak to anyone no body wondered why I couldn't tell their names.
The same way I just said "yes, yes, I see", when people told me to watch birds, flowers, air planes etc. to avoid telling them that I was sorry I couldn't see them. I thought that I'd be normal if I just hid my differences.
Now one very important thing I learned at the GIC:
During psychological evaluation I went through intelligence testing and scored in the upper end of the highest range on several tests :) yet on this silly ink blot test, where you're supposed to describe visual associations I was rated as either severely immature or cognitively impaired.
Beforehand I'd been very critical about this test. "What relevance does ink blots have in my life?, eh" and the shrink just disregarded the test as useless too, because the results were so different from anything else we went through. But when we spoke about it later and I told her about how I was affected by my vision I discovered that this silly test was probably what changed my views the most in a full year of required sessions.
Because of my intelligence I was able to hide my visual needs during all school. Nobody questioned me since I was such a brilliant student. Yet hiding my needs I ended up loosing the ability to get the support and understanding I'd deserve and benefit from and severely hampering my social life. The same goes regarding my gender variance. Hiding away meant I lived a life as living dead without any freedom and without any friends. What transition does to me now is really awesome :)
Finally I've realized that normalcy may not even be the norm, LoL. Variation is huge in every aspects be it biology, psychology or gender roles. For instance I researched test results for the personality test I was subjected to, NEO-PI-R, and it turned out that even though there are mean-value differences between the scores of anatomically male and anatomically female persons the standard deviation within each sex is about four times as big. In numbers this translates into 93% of all persons falling within the area, where the two sex separated curves overlap. Even though society expects normal women to have a different personality from normal men this shows that only 7% of the people actually do have a different personality, when it is examined by psychologists. Rather than coming from two different planets, Mars and Venus, we appear to be simmilarily different from the stereotyped "normal", which is after all nothing but an average.
Now if the ink blots were my greatest epifany then I'd say the second one was the examinations during sperm banking, which made me aware of certain biologic variations. One being that I'm exactly the same height as the women in my family, yet I am 17 cm shorter than my biologic brother.
"Nature loves variety, unfortunately society does not." (Milton Diamond)
Tippe
Being normal is being average. I gave up on being like that sooo long ago. I'm a woman, and a very different one at that! :)
g
Quote from: ggina on September 12, 2010, 01:51:33 PM
Being normal is being average. I gave up on being like that sooo long ago. I'm a woman, and a very different one at that! :)
g
+1 on that!
I reject the whole idea that I am an aberrance absolutely!
I have no problems accepting my nature - I'm delighted to be a custom model!
Quote from: rejennyrated on September 12, 2010, 01:58:20 PM
I reject the whole idea that I am an aberrance absolutely!
I have no problems accepting my nature - I'm delighted to be a custom model!
To me these two statements seem to cancel each other out... an aberration is a custom model, at least so far as I have understood it.
Quote from: KittyClaw on September 13, 2010, 07:43:21 PM
To me these two statements seem to cancel each other out... an aberration is a custom model, at least so far as I have understood it.
Absolutely not. An aberration is something which happens by accident and is often an inferior mistake, whereas a custom model is something carefully planned and specially designed for a special purpose.
It's the old glass half empty versus glass half full thing. I stress the positives.
Quote from: ggina on September 12, 2010, 01:51:33 PM
Being normal is being average. I gave up on being like that sooo long ago. I'm a woman, and a very different one at that! :)
g
This! - Who wants to be normal anyway?
~Tali
Normalcy is so last millenium.
If normalcy were a cake, IT WOULD BE A LIE!!
Normal...
Normal is defined as a range around the average of a certain population. You can use a normal distribution pictured as a bell curve to illustrate this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.onlineinvestingai.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F05%2Fbell-curve.jpg&hash=d851344f0885fd8e77986fa85b0eac40fb1ce039)
The line in the center is what is defined as avarage, the area below the curve represents a part of the population with a certain deviation to "avarage".
This can be applied to numerous cases, for example the weight of babies or the test scores of a group of students.
When you get to the extremes of the graph you get to what is "abnormal" (I don't like this word) and it is clearly visible that this includes a much smaller number of people than in the middle of the graph.
What I am trying to say is that everybody is different and that what is considered normal is only because a large part of the population is like this. It does not say anything about your qualities as a human being. Diversity is what makes life so beautiful and interesting. Don't try to be normal, but be yourself.
Variety is the spice of life.
that's my boobs 3 months from today :)
Anyway nice graph you have Octavianus, but luckily what we're talking about here cannot really be measured in any meaningful way. And I like that :)
Apart from this, you're absolutely right on the spot of course. There's no reason to be normal or "abnormal" (brrr) just for the sake of it.
g
Quote from: Natasha on September 12, 2010, 12:20:09 AM
The Desire to be Normal
http://everquestingmind.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/the-desire-to-be-normal/ (http://everquestingmind.wordpress.com/2010/09/10/the-desire-to-be-normal/)
by lorelei
9/10/10
I guess in essence this is kinda what transition is all about. No one really grows up thinking "oh, maybe I'll change genders, just for a lark". 'We' have a deep-seated desire, nay, a knowledge even, that some variable in our minds and our preferred methods of social expression are hampered or even prohibited by the strictures of a biology-imposed behaviour system. This desire, or knowledge, will at some stage reach critical level, the point at which disparity between what the mind craves and what our bodies allow us to do in society is overwhelming.
And so we set out to achieve normality, or at the least, as close a resemblance to normality as might be achieved. The downside of this is, that it is all an utter illusion and totally unachievable.
Sorry, i may be the odd one out but this BS to me. It seems just because your experiences are like this, you assume others are exactly the same way. Let me tell you a counterpoint.
#1) normal as in how? If you define normal as being born an XX female, your wrong because AIS women (XY women) are born everyday. The grow up with total immunity to testosterone, and actually look, and are women to the point of even reproductive organs, although sterile. One would call this an intersex condition but it is enough to make you question what a man and a woman is. XY women are women, nothing man about them except their chromosomes, so why is it that you perceive a TS XY woman as not one? why do you think they cannot live a normal life? TS is really just a milder version of AIS, instead of effecting the whole body it effects only the brain and nervous system. So if your brain is female and your body is male what does that make you? I think we all know the answer.
Lets just compare TS women to GG women
Reproduction : both can be born sterile or become sterile in life, women are even born without a vagina in some cases, or uterus, or ovaries or a mix of all that.
Looks: TS women can look and sometimes do look better then GG women, the same is also true in reverse
Surgery for enhancement: Women (all women) get surgery because they dont like how something looks on their body, SRS is the same in that respect, we get it for the same reasons, we dont like how we look. Women that have no vagina also have surgeries to correct that.
Children: Both can breastfeed, both can raise children, both can adopt when they cannot have children of their own. Obviously TS women cannot bare children, at least not yet~ but when they can so will GG women that cannot have kids as well so no change there.
Relationships: Both can and have gotten married and have normal relationships (str8 or gay/lesbian)
Medicine: both have to see an ob/gyn
Mental: Both are women mentally, recent tests using brain imaging shows TS woman's brain lights up the same as a GG, and in most cases not like a male brain.
Life: Both can have jobs and/or raise a family and be productive members of society.
Really there is nothing i have found that make TS women different from GG women, except maybe before surgery obviously, but after, none. Some may argue bone structure but that is untrue women are born with broad shoulders and men are born with narrow... genetics, if you say on average hips are bigger and such sure, i will give you that but its not the case for all women, and a TS woman who takes hormones early on will have similar bone growth to GG women to the point of being indistinguishable.
If you think surgery cant make you a normal woman your wrong. I will use my case as an example. I am pre-op and live a perfect normal life, its not an illusion, its reality, its what i strove for, the only thing and I mean the ONLY thing that reminds me different is the thing between my legs, and when its gone, that will be that, it wont be an illusion, and it even isnt now. I go to work, have friends, and even have a fiance that is straight, we intend to adopt children in a few years and I will also be a mom. Getting surgery to correct a body defect is NORMAL for women. They do it all the time, breast augmentation, Lipo, mole removal, etc.. Getting SRS is no different to me then getting a mole removed, just its a really expensive one heh. Once that is done my self image will be much much better. I dont see myself as TS, i never will, I am a woman suffering from TS. Like blindness or any other thing you might be born with you have to overcome it to live a normal life, and when i say normal i mean whatever is normal for you. My normal isnt an illusion, its pretty damn real, and when I come out of my SRS next year, it will stay that way. You dont have to take my word for it, you can ask my fiance, a guy that didnt know i was TS and still fell in love with me just the same as he would a GG. He has never seen me as anything other then a real woman, so why should I see myself as anything but one as well?
Thats all i wanted to say. Some people, live normal lives outside of embracing being TS, and some like me, hate it with a passion, to embrace it makes me cringe. I am not defined by the congenital defects i carry.
Izumi, not to fire up the topic, but we might be talking about wholly different things here :)
I agree that the author of the essay shouldn't have generalized her case over the entire TS population. This part is definitely wrong, she obviously wanted to say something big, instead of only keeping to her own impressions. But apart from this, the rest might be totally true for the author and maybe for some other people too who just happen to feel the same way.
And although I too don't take myself as an 'aberrance' and don't want to be taken like that by anybody, I don't think I can ever live a normal life like, for example, you seem to be living - and that's because the damage of the last 25 years of mental suffering which has taken its toll on my brain, or my soul, or whatever. I had to grow up differently, had to live differently, had to communicate, had to think and act differently from everyone else. Yes, both of us may get the surgery some day and for you it'll be like the previous years didn't even existed but for me I just can't believe I can ever forget them, they're just so blueprinted. I'll just do my best to correct a mistake I've been born with and if my life will be just a notch better by doing that, I'll say it's worth it but I don't expect to be a different person starting with a clean slate. But honestly, I don't really know what a normal life is like :) so I don't think I should even attempt at living one.
And guess what, despite all this, I'm still a woman. TS is a medical/social term, others may say that about me but I don't use it to describe myself; I'm a woman, no more, no less. Just like the author herself, who says at the end of the essay, that she's finally embracing womanhood - not TS-hood, but womanhood. Women, just like anybody else, have the right, or just simply can be different, and they don't have to be TS to be like that. And you must know that very well as you mentioned somewhere that you're a geeky girl, which is different enough, at least for most people :)
You recite a number of physical items and compare GG women to TS. But this is not nearly at all about those, those things are only some of the external signs of womanhood, but the essay is more about the internals. You might not have any conflicts within yourself - good for you. But not everybody is like that and I felt deeply touched by this writing, as recently I have come to very similar conclusions on my own.
Quote
If you think surgery cant make you a normal woman your wrong
And who said that? In fact, there's the exact opposite written in there.
g
Dear Izumi, you have put your thoughts into words in a very clear way. I think much depends on what the personal definitions of certain words are.
The meaning of "normal" is most often very personal. What one considers as normal might not be so for another. It all depends on what population you take to define it. When viewed on a planet wide scale, I don't think "normal" can actually be defined for the simple fact that there are countless different cultures and lifestyles. it is very possible that you end up with something that is statistically normal, but is not representative for anybody.
So when we look at this particular subject you can indeed say that transsexual people can most definately live normal lives (A shame this is not true for all), but does that mean that they themselves are normal? This once again is dependant of what you see as normal. Personally, I would say yes but when viewed nationwide I would say no.
For example, I have small lungs leaving me unable to use a lot of power over short times like in a sprint. It was diagnosed at the late age of 12. Why? Because I always thought it was normal so I never complained about it.
You wrote that you don't see yourself as TS, but as a woman suffering from TS. Forgive me for asking, but what is the exact difference between these 2?
My girlfriend is a woman and that is how I have always seen her. But I also acknowledge the fact that she is TS, just like I would acknowledge it if a certain person is blind, or like you say has a zit. Is this a bad thing to do? Having a certain condition or defect does not make a person any less of a man or woman. There is a large difference between acknowledging certain traits and puting labels on people to identify them by.
Normal ≠ positive
Abnormal (shudder) ≠ negative
Quote from: Izumi on September 14, 2010, 02:03:48 PM
I am not defined by the congenital defects i carry.
That is a undenieable thruth
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_ayZhL3fzOoM%2FS-WEGk2QgrI%2FAAAAAAAAALg%2FPHWlCyMYWNQ%2Fs1600%2Fbell_curve.jpg&hash=0815b67224db583a59ed0b13dce92e310fd92093)
Well, if there's one thing she is right about, it's that she is highly opinionated. Then again so am I. So there, we're even!
Where do I even begin!
First, as an amalgamation of her own quest, I take no issue with her opinion. However, when it is referenced to a population as a whole (which she did do); that we're never going to be normal, or we weren't born into the wrong body, or surgery will not correct that which we know was a mistake in the first place; these topics are completely subjective and only definable to the person that is facing the prospect.
For myself, and myself only, I know that living a "normal" life is possible. How much more proof does one need? I certainly do not require any further qualification to make that determination! Let me just provide a short list of things I consider to be normative in today's society:
1. I hold a job
2. I own a business
3. I employ people
4. My business is now growing
5. I'm married to the most incredible woman in the world(nearly 31 years and happily)
6. I have a loving family and very loving and supportive friends
7. I am a member of a major service organization (starts with a "K", but doesn't end with one, lol)
8. I don't get heckled or harassed when out in public
etc.
So, is this normal? It is in my life! It may not be in the authors. And it may not be for a large number of people on this board. However one defines normal though, is how that person's vision of normal is, plain and simple.
I am not "emotionally" damaged as the author states I should or would be. And, I am veerrryyy capable in my own power, thank you! The author seems to think that the only way to achieve the happiness of normality is to transition early on in life. I beg to differ! I didn't begin to transition until I was 50. Not exactly a spring chicken. And, I am not so caught up in the estimation of how well I pass in public to gauge my life as to how normal it is. Whether people know I am trans or not is of no consequence to me. It's the confidence I have in myself that creates the success of a life of "normality".
Dawn
Quote from: Octavianus on September 14, 2010, 03:52:53 PM
Dear Izumi, you have put your thoughts into words in a very clear way. I think much depends on what the personal definitions of certain words are.
The meaning of "normal" is most often very personal. What one considers as normal might not be so for another. It all depends on what population you take to define it. When viewed on a planet wide scale, I don't think "normal" can actually be defined for the simple fact that there are countless different cultures and lifestyles. it is very possible that you end up with something that is statistically normal, but is not representative for anybody.
So when we look at this particular subject you can indeed say that transsexual people can most definately live normal lives (A shame this is not true for all), but does that mean that they themselves are normal? This once again is dependant of what you see as normal. Personally, I would say yes but when viewed nationwide I would say no.
For example, I have small lungs leaving me unable to use a lot of power over short times like in a sprint. It was diagnosed at the late age of 12. Why? Because I always thought it was normal so I never complained about it.
You wrote that you don't see yourself as TS, but as a woman suffering from TS. Forgive me for asking, but what is the exact difference between these 2?
My girlfriend is a woman and that is how I have always seen her. But I also acknowledge the fact that she is TS, just like I would acknowledge it if a certain person is blind, or like you say has a zit. Is this a bad thing to do? Having a certain condition or defect does not make a person any less of a man or woman. There is a large difference between acknowledging certain traits and puting labels on people to identify them by.
Normal ≠ positive
Abnormal (shudder) ≠ negative
That is a undenieable thruth
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_ayZhL3fzOoM%2FS-WEGk2QgrI%2FAAAAAAAAALg%2FPHWlCyMYWNQ%2Fs1600%2Fbell_curve.jpg&hash=0815b67224db583a59ed0b13dce92e310fd92093)
Normal is a relative term obviously.
In my country the normal curve is typically career, marriage, maybe children later. Obviously some people fail but all seem to strive for a dream that is similar, so i too strive for it. To some, especially from other countries it might seem boring, a simple home, a husband, some children to look after, but that is my dream just the same and is considered to be quite a normal dream by the population i live in. Some would throw career into the mix, some would not. My normal is what i see my friends do with their families, it is what is typical, albeit all have different lives, with different problems, but the dynamic seems mostly the same, and that is what i want and am close to achieving.
As for being called a TS woman. I hate that term really. I prefer to say i am a woman suffering from TS because i never want to be defined and / or have a defect about me overshadow who i am as a person. I am a woman first and TS is something i was born with and have to deal with. To tell a blind person, oh hes blind even when he is capable of living a life which he overcame his blindness make everything about him about his blindness and not about the person. In life i could be successful, i could do great things, but if someone found out, then i would just be referred to as that TS woman and everything about me would fall into place behind that one thing. Which is why i hate it when people refer to me with TS before and after woman. It takes something away from me, something that shouldn't be taken away. To say i am a woman suffering from TS elevates my status as a person, saying I have to cope or deal with it, which makes me stronger as an individual, to say I am a TS woman is the exact opposite showing the condition runs my life and defines who i am, which is not the case. I dont know if that makes sense or not, but to me it does.
Also a lot people mentioned that they cannot erase the past that it shaped them and is a part of them and the normal they want to live is imaginary. To me this is kind of a silly notion because simply put the life i lived before wasnt real, IT was fake, IT was an act pulled off by years of conditioning to go against my very nature. I lived as a made up person, because that is what i thought i had to do, that life, was the least normal of all. Now I stopped acting, hung up the costume forever, and went back to my real life off stage. My old life was pretend, the person didnt really exist, it was a made up character, living a made up life, why should i dwell on a character I played once in an ongoing play. Sure there were good times and bad, but any long running series has that, but eventually its time to retire the show, and get out of show business ^_^, toward the end my ratings were down anyway.
^_^
Quote from: Izumi on September 14, 2010, 07:40:41 PM
toward the end my ratings were down anyway.
That's a good one, I like it :)
As for the definition of what "normal" is, I too think that's highly opinionated and thus not worthy of a meaningful discussion.
You're talking about living a normal life and I'm sure it's possible, why wouldn't it be? But let me stress it again, the essay is not about that, even the author writes she's managed to live a life like that. What the essay is about is the following:
Quote
But you can't escape the knowledge of your own formation.
We've all been through that role playing you mentioned. But not we're not made of the same material; we're different on how we can cope with our past, this role playing. To say an example, I was probably more sensitive than the usual and as a result I became a kind of an artist-like person. However, I strongly doubt that I'd be the very same person if I happened to not born with GID. But I can live a normal life just as anybody else can (like, I want to raise children) but I won't ever be a normal person and I accept that. Whatever that means :)
g
Thank you for explaining, Izumi. I never looked at it that way, it sounds reasonable. It is a true art to see the positive side of things for which I applaud you.
It is indeed very annoying when people refer to others by their properties or conditions. I don't really understand why they do so, is there a need to put labels on other people? Maybe they think being negative about others will elevate their own status. On the other hand, most of the times it is not meant to be negative. Human behavior is a difficult subject which makes me glad I am not a psychologist.
Your last line reminds me of a phrase the ancient Romans used to announce the end of a play: "Acta est fabvla" (The show is over)
We all need labels. Otherwise the world would be too complex for us to understand :)
g
I have never found even one person I would call normal after I got to know them.
Normal is boring anyway.
The only thing normal that I have ever seen was a setting on a dryer.
:)
Jillieann
Quote from: Izumi on September 14, 2010, 07:40:41 PM
In life i could be successful, i could do great things, but if someone found out, then i would just be referred to as that TS woman and everything about me would fall into place behind that one thing. Which is why i hate it when people refer to me with TS before and after woman. It takes something away from me, something that shouldn't be taken away. To say i am a woman suffering from TS elevates my status as a person, saying I have to cope or deal with it, which makes me stronger as an individual, to say I am a TS woman is the exact opposite showing the condition runs my life and defines who i am, which is not the case. I dont know if that makes sense or not, but to me it does.
Well put! I agree that suffering from a condition, yet coping well, makes you a stronger person. On the other hand I think trying to hide the condition completely in the quest for normalcy makes your past somehow become a bit odd in others eyes, because you have different life experiences whether you acknowledge it or not.
Tippe
Quote from: ggina on September 15, 2010, 01:51:00 PM
That's a good one, I like it :)
As for the definition of what "normal" is, I too think that's highly opinionated and thus not worthy of a meaningful discussion.
You're talking about living a normal life and I'm sure it's possible, why wouldn't it be? But let me stress it again, the essay is not about that, even the author writes she's managed to live a life like that. What the essay is about is the following:
We've all been through that role playing you mentioned. But not we're not made of the same material; we're different on how we can cope with our past, this role playing. To say an example, I was probably more sensitive than the usual and as a result I became a kind of an artist-like person. However, I strongly doubt that I'd be the very same person if I happened to not born with GID. But I can live a normal life just as anybody else can (like, I want to raise children) but I won't ever be a normal person and I accept that. Whatever that means :)
g
"Can you escape the information about your own formation"
Yes you can. Can you say for certain that if you were born GG and FORCED to live as man, you would not have turned out the same way when you stopped being one? You cant. So that statement is false. No matter how you were born you are both subject to nature and nurture, both of those effect you. The only way i can see people having trouble with this is if you really believe you werent what you are now to start off with. I was born a woman, for a time i was forced to live as a man, didnt work out so well, so i went back to being a woman. Thats it. I can escape it just fine, like i mentioned before the only thing that reminds me of my time in the brainwashing cult is what is between my legs, after that is gone, nothing will remind me. I wont forget my past though but it will be as if i was always a woman living that way. I already tell stories to my friends and they just take it as experiences that I had, they never assume they were the experiences of a guy, and even i dont see them that way.
Maybe i am not normal, maybe delusional, but i would rather my life be that i was born a woman and simply forced to live like a man out of ignorance of the people around me, rather then i was born some kind of freak that can never escape the trappings of what made me, telling me that no matter what i do i cant escape it. Bah, if you want to you can if you truly believe you were what you are now from the very start, for me a woman simply born with a disorder that made everyone around me treat me differently because they didnt understand what i had, but after therapy all of it has been fixed except for one thing.
I am normal - somewhere within the normal range - but I am neither normative nor the norm. ;)
- Kate
Quote from: Tippe on September 15, 2010, 04:40:40 PM
Well put! I agree that suffering from a condition, yet coping well, makes you a stronger person. On the other hand I think trying to hide the condition completely in the quest for normalcy makes your past somehow become a bit odd in others eyes, because you have different life experiences whether you acknowledge it or not.
Tippe
heh not so, i dont hide my past, in fact i tell stories from it to my co-workers all the time, they just assume its from the point of view of a woman because that is what they assume I am, at least i think they do from the comments they make dealing with things only GG women deal with. It catches me off guard sometimes, like i was really craving Chinese food and one of the girls said, oh is it that time of the month for you? I just replied... no i dont think thats it, and she took it as a normal answer. Anyway, i talk about getting into fights, and also other things in my life, not once anyone has seen my memories as anything out of the ordinary, even on dates I had been on with guys that didnt know i was TS. I kinda of think a lot of them think it makes me an interesting person.. in a way...
I've never been "normal" in almost any aspect of my life........but I'm still a woman.
I fail to see how being born transsexed or intersexed relates to "normal" as at this stage of my life I am far from certain I've ever met anyone who actually feels "normal".themselves.
Quote from: transheretic on September 16, 2010, 06:51:33 AM
I've never been "normal" in almost any aspect of my life........but I'm still a woman.
I fail to see how being born transsexed or intersexed relates to "normal" as at this stage of my life I am far from certain I've ever met anyone who actually feels "normal".themselves.
Normal is what is within accepted cultural norms. If it shocks someone, its not an expected norm for that person, if it shocks a large group then its not an accepted cultural norm. Telling someone who doesnt know your TS you are TS would give them a shock and sometimes change the way they treat you, since its not a typical thing people are used to experiencing. While being TS is accepted the view of what a transsexual is, is not stabilized within US culture, people just assume when you say TS you mean CD/TV/TS/DQ/etc... or a mix of all. When we are lumped in with all these other groups it makes it hard to make a case that we are different. There is a difference between no one being the same, and being normal, they are two different things. For example I like corn chips, my fiance doesnt, both of us are different, but both are still normal. Normal is basically within the tolerance levels of society, currently being TS is very close to the edge of those tolerance levels. For example something really tolerant would be eating meat here, something not so tolerant but accepted vegetarianism (people make fun of them too you know, but it is still accepted).
All i am trying to point out is you maybe normal and just misunderstand what normal is. So when you say your not normal what does that mean? you live in a tree house? you ride helicopters to work? you have an arm growing out your stomach? Whatever it is its probably within the norm, but you are still a unique individual.
Quote from: Izumi on September 16, 2010, 11:37:38 AM
All i am trying to point out is you maybe normal and just misunderstand what normal is. So when you say your not normal what does that mean? you live in a tree house? you ride helicopters to work? you have an arm growing out your stomach? Whatever it is its probably within the norm, but you are still a unique individual.
Ok, you owe me a cup of coffee.....I was sipping it when I read this. Clearly you don't know who I am.
I was born a tetra-gametic chimera or a "true" hermaphrodite and was surgically altered at birth. I am a sixty something lifelong Pagan. I'm bisexual, I revived the ancient Cybeline Goddess tradition and I founded and manage a Pagan womans convent and spirituality centre, let me know where you find "normal in that. I also lived in India as a teenager, was a hippy activist in the sixties, womens right activist in the seventies to today, a Pagan rights activist in the seventies....again, where's the normal there? And I have zero problem with not being normal
Normal is overrated. But I am still a woman.
"I also lived in India as a teenager, was a hippy activist in the sixties"
Everything after you said that, made you normal. ^_^
then you have a weird sense of normal......
I don't live in a tree house, I live in a 130+ year old haunted Catskill resort Inn with a bunch of cats..... not normal In fact the very definition of not normal since I am living the joke I made as a child that I wanted to grow up to be the weird old lady in the strange old house with all the cats.
I ride around the Hamlet on an electric scooter.... not normal, not a helicopter, but not normal
I have two separate genetic codes in various systems of my body... not an arm growing out of my belly, but again, not normal as I am literally twins in a single body.
What I cannot figure out is why you seem invested in making me normal when I love being eccentric as a pet raccoon And the point of my original comment is almost everyone I ever met did not feel they were normal either even if most would consider them so. I'm also one of those HBSers (on alternate Tuesdays anyway) so even figured against the norm here, I'm not. My intelligence is in the upper 2%, so once again, not normal there either.
Screw normal, I rejected it as a child and I still do. I live life on my own terms I have no desire to be normal.
Quote from: transheretic on September 16, 2010, 06:19:15 PM
then you have a weird sense of normal......
I don't live in a tree house, I live in a 130+ year old haunted Catskill resort Inn with a bunch of cats..... not normal In fact the very definition of not normal since I am living the joke I made as a child that I wanted to grow up to be the weird old lady in the strange old house with all the cats.
I ride around the Hamlet on an electric scooter.... not normal, not a helicopter, but not normal
I have two separate genetic codes in various systems of my body... not an arm growing out of my belly, but again, not normal as I am literally twins in a single body.
What I cannot figure out is why you seem invested in making me normal when I love being eccentric as a pet raccoon And the point of my original comment is almost everyone I ever met did not feel they were normal either even if most would consider them so. I'm also one of those HBSers (on alternate Tuesdays anyway) so even figured against the norm here, I'm not. My intelligence is in the upper 2%, so once again, not normal there either.
Screw normal, I rejected it as a child and I still do. I live life on my own terms I have no desire to be normal.
We previous statement was a sad at humor, i apologize. Of course none of those things are normal. You have convinced me, but for some reason... and i dont know why none of it seems out of the ordinary too. Maybe i just know a lot of interesting people.
I have gotten used to not fitting in. I was a girl who appeared to be a boy, but there were many other ways that I didn't fit in. So when I began appearing to the world as a woman, I had a strong built-up desire to try to fit in. My background is odd, but no more so than many people I know even though they aren't transgendered. I love that I am accepted as unusual but normal – part of the vast swath of humanity that is considered "normal" – whatever that means.
Perhaps I want to be normal because I was never able to be that way before. That doesn't mean that I will do stereotypical things, it just means that I am now comfortable as part of a group of people where I am accepted as normal but am still myself.
- Kate
I found the article to be very good, as it made me think and at the same time, underlined my conviction. (I'm getting old, I like articles which support my opinions.)
As a transguy, I can never be "norrmal" like other guys. Who of them had a period, were addressed as females (or the paternts corrected people on the streets that you were a girl not a boy... argh!), got forced into wearing dresses on formal occasions, have to live their life as a dickless man, grew obnoxious tits at puberty etc. ? But I don't care about being normal anyway, I'm abnormal in many other ways as well... And I don't ever want to fool myself into thinking I am a normal guy. I'm not. Growing up as a female is not normal for a guy, nor is a transsexual physical transition, nor is the fact that you have mostly female genitalia. Point. Plus undress yourself, it just looks freaky, at least in my case.
I see a hairy guy with tits and a pussy when I'm naked and look into the mirror, and wonder who might be attracted to that. It's not really ugly, but freaky. Well, found a bi guy for an affair, he does not mind my physical mix-max at all. Let's be clear here, somehow, we are freaks. And/or we look like freaks, during transition. And I will look freaky for the rest of my life as I won't make bottom surgery. I'd love to have a penis, but the solutions they have now don't work for me.
But freaks are cool as soon as they get this ->-bleeped-<- you-attitude concerning social expectations and are just themselves.
Once you get over the "normalization" pressure and other people don't expect you to be normal any more, you lose the status of a "normal person", which hurts. But at the same time, you win a lot, you can just be yourself. Yay!
Fencesitter, you make it sound so harsh. But then again, the naked thruth often is. Being normal shouldn't be a goal in life, being yourself should be.
In my case people in high school rumored I must be autistic because I simply did not have the desire to fit in with others by wearing certain clothes or by pretending to like certain things. I simply do not like to force myself into things I don't like in order to be popular. Even my father made me watch sports so I could talk about it with others. At the same time I was not allowed to view channels as the discovery channel or read magazines as the national geographic because it was all "stuck up crap".
A freak... I needed to consult my dictionary for the exact meaning: "A person of unusual appearance". I hate the word, but the meaning is not all that bad after all. Isn't it strange that words can have such a negative appearance while their meaning isn't negative at all? I think it is only good to reflect on your differences to what is regarded normal, but don't fall for the trap to regard this as negative. Don't torture yourself with thoughts of what will never be. We can never fully change what we are and we have to accept this or else it will consume us.
I think that you can divide "freaks" in 2 categories: Those who want to be different (to be cool) and those who want to be themselves. I am under the impression that you belong to the latter because else your gender would be a choice, which it is clearly not.
My experience is that when you flip the finger to society, it will return the favor twice as hard. This is in line with what Tippe wrote as a comment on the article "Nature loves variety, unfortunately society does not"
Hey, you're still arguing about what's normal and what's not! Haven't I told you not to! :) Just joking...
Now, to the point.
Quote
Can you say for certain that if you were born GG and FORCED to live as man, you would not have turned out the same way when you stopped being one?
Of course I can't say anything certain about something that hasn't happened. But, consider 25 years of this forced living which lasted during the years when a person's personality is mostly formed, how could you ever forget it? The answer is already in your post: delusion. I have no problem if someone chooses that, I can understand the whys. But after all these years of role playing I only want one thing, and that is to live in truth. And the truth is, for me, that I've had a very messed up life before :) and I just gotta live with that memory. It's not hard -in fact, it's easy if you give up on always acting according to society's expectations- living in delusionment would be probably harder, for me at least. And that's what the essay is about: being a woman is not about
playing the woman to others but to feel and think like a woman even when you're all alone, when nobody surrounds you. It's up to the individual how much she cares about society; you care more, I care less. Because I know they never cared about me so they actually get what they deserve in return :)
Quote
rather then i was born some kind of freak that can never escape the trappings of what made me, telling me that no matter what i do i cant escape it
I don't consider myself a freak, never did and I really hope you don't, too :) And I hope Fencesitter is just joking about that, and really talking about how
others may see us. That is, the problem is with society, again, because in their eyes we might be just that and no more. So if you're striving for the acceptance of them, then you'd better not disclose your past. In my eyes, I'm just a woman with a birth defect and I'm not transitioning to fit well into society but only to correct that defect.
I think being "not normal" is to tell society that they can give up on their expectations when it comes to a certain someone :) Now this may sound the usual antisocial behaviour but it really isn't that serious as I don't want to specifically
shock people. I still have a job and intend to keep it, still have a flat where I can sleep at night and have something to eat every day. So I'm just kind of balancing on the edge, not be accepted by too many people but don't want to be outcasted from there either. Artists live this kind of life all the time and I'm more-or-less one of them.
Now after all this, allow me to go a bit off because I got bored of talking about myself all the time :) I think I've already written here that someday I'd like to adopt and raise children. But imagine, as I've never been a little girl neither physically nor socially (only mentally, but who else cares about that?), how will I try to explain to her the bits and odds, the little things about being a girl? I'll have to make up some fake memories before her questions start to surface. I have no intention to do this for myself but for her sake, I'll do it. And someday, when she's old enough, she'll learn the truth and she'll understand that these were only to keep her little soul intact, to grow up as normal as possible, a chance which wasn't given to me. And she'll forgive me for those lies and then we'll have some big laughs together at the past. And I think that's beautiful. Yeah I know, I'm getting old and sentimental :)
g
Quote from: ggina on September 17, 2010, 10:55:49 AM
Hey, you're still arguing about what's normal and what's not! Haven't I told you not to! :) Just joking...
Now, to the point.
Of course I can't say anything certain about something that hasn't happened. But, consider 25 years of this forced living which lasted during the years when a person's personality is mostly formed, how could you ever forget it? The answer is already in your post: delusion. I have no problem if someone chooses that, I can understand the whys. But after all these years of role playing I only want one thing, and that is to live in truth. And the truth is, for me, that I've had a very messed up life before :) and I just gotta live with that memory. It's not hard -in fact, it's easy if you give up on always acting according to society's expectations- living in delusionment would be probably harder, for me at least. And that's what the essay is about: being a woman is not about playing the woman to others but to feel and think like a woman even when you're all alone, when nobody surrounds you. It's up to the individual how much she cares about society; you care more, I care less. Because I know they never cared about me so they actually get what they deserve in return :)
I don't consider myself a freak, never did and I really hope you don't, too :) And I hope Fencesitter is just joking about that, and really talking about how others may see us. That is, the problem is with society, again, because in their eyes we might be just that and no more. So if you're striving for the acceptance of them, then you'd better not disclose your past. In my eyes, I'm just a woman with a birth defect and I'm not transitioning to fit well into society but only to correct that defect.
I think being "not normal" is to tell society that they can give up on their expectations when it comes to a certain someone :) Now this may sound the usual antisocial behaviour but it really isn't that serious as I don't want to specifically shock people. I still have a job and intend to keep it, still have a flat where I can sleep at night and have something to eat every day. So I'm just kind of balancing on the edge, not be accepted by too many people but don't want to be outcasted from there either. Artists live this kind of life all the time and I'm more-or-less one of them.
Now after all this, allow me to go a bit off because I got bored of talking about myself all the time :) I think I've already written here that someday I'd like to adopt and raise children. But imagine, as I've never been a little girl neither physically nor socially (only mentally, but who else cares about that?), how will I try to explain to her the bits and odds, the little things about being a girl? I'll have to make up some fake memories before her questions start to surface. I have no intention to do this for myself but for her sake, I'll do it. And someday, when she's old enough, she'll learn the truth and she'll understand that these were only to keep her little soul intact, to grow up as normal as possible, a chance which wasn't given to me. And she'll forgive me for those lies and then we'll have some big laughs together at the past. And I think that's beautiful. Yeah I know, I'm getting old and sentimental :)
g
You do know that even parents that DO go through those experiences dont raise children well. Something can be said for experience but the experience might not always have been a good one or a learned one. I am sure without living life as a little girl you can tell your daughter the difference between right and wrong in her life, a parent isn't a friend, a parent is someone who nurtures and guides a child into being a functioning adult, i have no doubt you can do that without ever having lived as a little girl, its pretty much common sense stuff, otherwise how would single mom's still be able to raise sons. They have an issue, you tell them how they should handle it or you handle it and go on. I too will adopt, i would like a son and daughter, but as someone who lived both sides i can give my daughter a better understanding of what its like dealing with men, and my insight on how a man should be and how he should treat women. You still have a lot of experience that is invaluable to a child that most parents never have, dont sell yourself short.
As for being normal... I can close my eyes and see the house, my husband, 2 kids, a dog, BBQ in the yard, neighbors over for picnic parties, casseroles, etc... I know life isnt like an 1950s family show, I know when i have kids they will be screaming all night and throw tantrums, break things, get into trouble, etc... I am getting some practice with big kids dealing with my fiance which will prove invaluable later, but what is important to me is when It is time for me to leave this world, i have the children that i raised beside me with their own families, and the joy I will feel when they come to say goodbye to their mom, and that i was important in their lives. I am not fighting to be normal as much as i am fighting to have the meaning i have always wanted to my life, being a part of society will just make it easier for my kids and my family, so its just a step, if i didnt have to take it i wouldnt do it.
About the "freak" word.
We have it as a foreign werd in German, but it seems to be used somewhat differently here than in English, and I meant it in the German sense.
We do not use "freak" to describe monstrosities, seriously deformed fetuses or very disfigured persons.
It's rather used for very excentric looking people, like, e. g. the heavily body modified and tattoed celebrities Enigma and Lizard man, more for excentric looks deliberately caused than for looks which happened by nature (albinism etc.).
We also use it for people who are a lot into a certain topic or hobby and know very much about it,
or who are tremendously good or talented at something.
And for people who lead very excentric lives.
Freak can have a positive or negative meaning here, sometimes even both at the same time.
I used "freak" here in the context of excentric looking and (in terms of cross-gendered childhood and youth) excentric lives. And indeed, in this sense, that's how I see myself. Then again, I think physical transition in a certain sense is like an extreme, deliberate body modification though it's not exactly the same thing and has other motivations behind it. Plus I kind of like the body modifications of lizard man etc. So it's fine for me to consider myself as something a bit similar to heavily body modified people - a freak in the German meaning of the word.
Thanks for the explanation, Fencesitter. So for the germans even a genius is a freak as I understand. Though if I were a genius I guess I wouldn't care what adjective people use on me :) but it's good to know anyway.
Speaking of bodymods and TSism, it just popped into my mind, a guy called yttrx. A few years ago I was educating myself, looking for various transition experiences and bumped into his online diary. He used to publish regularly on bmezine, writing about general bodymod stuff and then he surprisingly came out one day to the readers as an mtf ts and announced he already started therapy because he was diagnosed as one by some docs as well. He went with it for two years and then got out of it, saying he was missing his "old" self. Of course this can happen with anyone, but the background he came from makes this a bit more interesting. I don't know what his true feelings were but what if he only wanted to do some extreme form of modding? Not that he didn't have the right to do so, it just got me thinking about people's motivations. Unfortunately this well-written diary is no longer on the net, he must've carefully wiped out every single trace even from the search engines.
Izumi, I know that growing up as a girl isn't what makes a good mother, I agree that we can all raise children by using only common sense. I was just trying to say that since I've never really been a boy, not to say a girl :) I expect to run into some difficulties when it comes to cisgender issues. Assuming my children will be cisgender anyway :)
oh and btw, it's good to see so many kinds of people here: reading about Izumi's garden with bbq and then the bodymods of Fencesitter, it just makes for so much contrast, but in a good colorful way :) But now I'm stuck somewhere in-between the two which makes me feel average, if only in a statistical way. I soo hate being there :)
g
Quote from: ggina on September 23, 2010, 04:07:52 PMOf course this can happen with anyone, but the background he came from makes this a bit more interesting. I don't know what his true feelings were but what if he only wanted to do some extreme form of modding? Not that he didn't have the right to do so, it just got me thinking about people's motivations.
I don't know about his case. But I know about at least 2 heavily body modified guys who also got breasts (one got implants, another one grew them with hormones). They're not transgendered in any way, just wanted to get this body modification. That's how body mod people tick - oh I want to change something about my body, I'll just do it, point. I was at one of the most famous body mod studios in Germany and the body mod/piercing guys there told me this and told me that if I wanted to get rid of the breasts for myself, that's fine, but if I only wanted to do it to meet society's expectations, they suggested me to think it over. And then they told me about these two guys and added - "You know, bodies don't need to be un-ambiguous". Altogether, I have the impression that body mod people don't necessarily get what body dysphoria is, but they absolutely agree that every adult should do with their body whatever they want based on informed consent, including transsexual body transformation and they think that's absolutely okay. Really a nice scene in terms of trans-acceptance.
I'm not heavily body modificated, but got me a few body mods at a time when I was fairly frustrated about the whole SoC procedure. At least, that was something about my body which I had control of and could do as I wanted. It was a great, re-empowering experience to be able to do something at least something about my body based on informed consent without all the hassle and psychiatric evaluation and feeling like a bug under a microscope. I will probably also get me a "ghetto meto" one day, that's the body mod version of the usual metoidioplasty. I prefer to feel like a normal client than like a deranged person having to get a psychiatrists' okay. The day there did me more good than half a year of therapy.
I have absolutely no idea if this breaks some kind of internet etiquette (so if anyone could inform me that'd be awesome) but having followed source links from my blog to here, I really want to say that I am totally honoured something I have said has sparked so much discussion, and I have sat enraptured throughout - I've certainly had my horizon expanded even further.
Which is a part of why I do the blog, I love seeing other people's take on my own thoughts and then having the ability to introspect and potentially change my ways of thinking.
And I wanted to say: at first Izumi I tended not to agree with you, but this:
Quote from: Izumi on September 17, 2010, 11:41:13 AM
I am not fighting to be normal as much as i am fighting to have the meaning i have always wanted to my life, being a part of society will just make it easier for my kids and my family, so its just a step, if i didnt have to take it i wouldnt do it.
you hit the nail straight on the head. Love it. Subsequently I would like to anomymously quote that somewhere if you wouldn't mind?
xo
~L~
Quote from: KittyClaw on September 25, 2010, 06:37:39 PM
I have absolutely no idea if this breaks some kind of internet etiquette (so if anyone could inform me that'd be awesome) but having followed source links from my blog to here, I really want to say that I am totally honoured something I have said has sparked so much discussion, and I have sat enraptured throughout - I've certainly had my horizon expanded even further.
Thanks for following the link back to here and joining us in this conversation! Welcome to Susan's.
Z
Quote from: KittyClaw on September 25, 2010, 06:37:39 PM
I have absolutely no idea if this breaks some kind of internet etiquette (so if anyone could inform me that'd be awesome) but having followed source links from my blog to here, I really want to say that I am totally honoured something I have said has sparked so much discussion, and I have sat enraptured throughout - I've certainly had my horizon expanded even further.
Which is a part of why I do the blog, I love seeing other people's take on my own thoughts and then having the ability to introspect and potentially change my ways of thinking.
And I wanted to say: at first Izumi I tended not to agree with you, but this:
you hit the nail straight on the head. Love it. Subsequently I would like to anomymously quote that somewhere if you wouldn't mind?
xo
~L~
Sure you can quote it, i wouldn't have written it in a public forum if i didnt want it for people to see. ^_^