If you are transgender, PLEASE carry yourself in a respectful manner. BEcause you are representing ALL of us even though you have not chosen to...PLEASE
We are only human Iris. No better or worse than any other human.
The most important thing for us to do, is nothing anyone else tells us to do.
We need to never lose the fact that we need to be ourselves. We go through all of this to be ourselves, not to be someone different.
Quote from: iris1469 on September 17, 2010, 04:31:33 PM
If you are transgender, PLEASE carry yourself in a respectful manner. BEcause you are representing ALL of us even though you have not chosen to...PLEASE
I sense a story here .... do tell :)
Melan
You don't get it do you? I hate begin a transsexual... But I don't have a choice. My choice was become a transwoman or die.
I didn't become this way and endure these dreadful hardships make all these sacrifices for you or any group identity or to help further the shifting borders of an ill defined sleazy political movement.
GID happening to me... it's just a horrible misfortune with no reason... And I'm trying to recover my life and survive til tomorrow and I do it for me. Whether you think I'm carrying myself respectfully or not I'm not doing it for you.
Quote from: pebbles on September 17, 2010, 05:25:02 PM
You don't get it do you? I hate begin a transsexual... But I don't have a choice. My choice was become a transwoman or die.
I didn't become this way and endure these dreadful hardships make all these sacrifices for you or any group identity or to help further the shifting borders of an ill defined sleazy political movement.
GID happening to me... it's just a horrible misfortune with no reason... And I'm trying to recover my life and survive til tomorrow and I do it for me. Whether you think I'm carrying myself respectfully or not I'm not doing it for you.
The struggle and hardship is worth it Pebbles, I lost everything but gained everything. We don't choose to be like this but we choose to do something about it. Rise above the struggles and the struggles are over come, one by one until we rise up in newness of life. Yes for me, but as a consequence for others like me as well.
Without knowing it/without seeking it, we do become roll models for others to follow just as we have followed those who have paved the way for us who are transitioning today. So I guess we do, do things for ourselves but in doing that there will always be people looking over our shoulders to see what we do and say.
Stardust
Quote from: iris1469 on September 17, 2010, 04:31:33 PM
If you are transgender, PLEASE carry yourself in a respectful manner. BEcause you are representing ALL of us even though you have not chosen to...PLEASE
I'm sorry but that statement seems so random. Can you please explain. :)
Quote from: iris1469 on September 17, 2010, 04:31:33 PM
If you are transgender, PLEASE carry yourself in a respectful manner. BEcause you are representing ALL of us even though you have not chosen to...PLEASE
Mmmmmmm, I respect the reason for your request, but I'm gonna have to decline.
You're right, I haven't chosen to be. I didn't choose the majority of the ->-bleeped-<-ty stuff in my life, a lot more ->-bleeped-<-ty stuff than simply being transgender.
And seeing as how I didn't choose it, and I'm only going to get to live my life once, I think I'll lead it however I want. That may very well be up to your standards of respectability, or then again it may not. I have quite a few character flaws that I'm sure some would disapprove of.
Here's a thought, maybe you shouldn't worry too much about how other trans people represent us?
Fact is, people have a HORRIBLE perception of us. Fact is, we are the cause of at least a part of that perception. Fact is, I accept that that's out of my control, and simply choose to represent
myself. If someone judges me by the standards set by others, I'll just tell them that I can't speak or pretend to understand everyone else, the only person I can understand and speak for, is myself.
In addition to being transgender, I'm also Caucasian, Australian, an MS sufferer, from a single parent household, a self harmer, etc, etc. Those may be characteristics of who I am. But I refuse to take responsibility for what anyone who isn't me who may share those characteristics has done. And if someone wants to be prejudice against me anyway, well, that's a shame, hopefully once they get to know me they'll accept me for me, and if they don't, maybe I don't want their respect anyway.
Quote from: iris1469 on September 17, 2010, 04:31:33 PM
If you are transgender, PLEASE carry yourself in a respectful manner. BEcause you are representing ALL of us even though you have not chosen to...PLEASE
Nope - unless you are telling me that I am obviously spottable as trans then I respectfully submit that I represent myself alone.
Besides I love the outrageous transpeople. Even though I don't know them and will never meet them they are my best allies! Why? Because if people think that is what it really means to be trans then they are even LESS likely to notice normal little ole me sitting next to them in their office or where ever.
Over the nearly 30 years that I have been living as a postop woman I have proved that I can pass with as near as makes no difference 100% reliability, not by looking glam or perfect, but simply by deliberately and systematically playing against the prevailing trans stereotype (thankfully not difficult for me).
For example in the UK everyone "knows" that all transwomen wear makeup, so I seldom do. Everyone "knows" that transwomen tend to be ultra femme, so I make no effort to be so... etc etc etc. And it works - there are several people on here who know me IRL and they can confirm it by observation.
So maybe instead of coming on here and making futile, and ultimately in my opinion slightly rude and judgemental, demands about how others behave, which isn't really for you to control, you should just learn to use the more outrageous members of our community as a nice little smokescreen.
Quote from: iris1469 on September 17, 2010, 04:31:33 PM
If you are transgender, PLEASE carry yourself in a respectful manner. BEcause you are representing ALL of us even though you have not chosen to...PLEASE
As others have said, what's the background to the comment?
I live my life as I wish to live it. I now refuse to take c**p from anyone. I'm Cindy, a somewhat 50ish woman who has taken control of her life. I'm happy to be respectful to those who give me respect. I'm am intensely loyal to those who have been loyal to me. I have undying friendship for my friends, and the vast majority I have met here. They know who they are, I suspect :laugh: :-* :-*. If people try to insult me, degrade me or prevent me from living the life I have chosen, which is neither criminal nor aberrant, I will do my best to either ignore or deal with them. I have had shop assistants sacked for being rude to me. I have no regrets for that. But finally, I am a perfectly normal member of society and wish to be treated and accepted as one. If I am not; Goddess hear me Roar.
Cindy
Quote from: rejennyrated on September 18, 2010, 03:11:31 AM
For example in the UK everyone "knows" that all transwomen wear makeup, so I seldom do. Everyone "knows" that transwomen tend to be ultra femme, so I make no effort to be so... etc etc etc.
This. One can always find something to not be associated with someone he/she wouldn't like to, just by being clever :)
g
Im inclined to answer"And????" Without any more detail it is all a bit vague. ???I
Or, as Mad Pauline put it, "Ploise exploin!"
I can't seem to find the quote right now, but this seems like something from the early days (1950's?) of gay liberation
where one of the societies (Mattachine?) pleaded for its members to be "normal".
Yes, it is unfortunate that the public views any one member of our "community" as an example.
No, I don't think that it's right for anyone to insist that we be "normal".
For the record, I'm pretty boring.
WOW. In reading these replies it really hits me weird. Let me clarify, I am NOT telling you to be anyone BUT yourself. I am not telling you what to do or how to do it. Are you telling me that you as a person are not respectable? That society is right to categorize us? This is the last thing ill say, at some point, either now or future generations, we an transgender must pave the way for tomorrows transgender, hopefully making their transition a little easier. You dont have to care about future transgender, but you should. Do you want them to be shouldered with the pain and suffering that most of us go through? If so, why? I am willing to lead by example, to shoulder as much grief as society as a whole or individuals wish to give me. AND I WILL love myself. I WILL carry my head high. In times that I am being treated unfairly and with prejudice, I will smile and carry myself confidently.....AND I WILL NEVER, EVER quit, EVER. meanwhile, any time I can help another, especially trans, I will.
You see I have seen it work in my own life. I have entered situations where people were making fun of me and disrespecting me. But I refuse to hang my head or lash out inmaturly (however there are timmes when people have been bent on fighting me and of course there is nothing you can do to change their minds, except whipping their butt, which i can do if need be). anyways I have had people come up to me and say something to the effect that they first had a negative impression of me (cuz I am trans and they had never seen one, or they had seen the bearded boys wearing makeup and wigs on santa monica blvd) but after just a little while they were able to put that away and looked at me for who I am, not what I am..
Now I have tried my best to explain this, I do hope you can understand what I am saying. You dont have to agree with me, but i do hope you understand.
I think I do understand, but there are much nicer ways of putting that across. I too realise that as things are now, we may hope to be pioneers in a world about to be changed into something more accepting and open. It's a naive thought, but a nice one to carry as a mantra.
I do, however, strongly object to being assumed as some sort of template, by you or others on the street. Trans folk are as diverse as any other type of person, and therefore there is no template. To homogenise us all for the supposed greater good - a mere reputation - is to undermine our very right to exist. Granted, it is not nice when somebody in the minority acts with clear disregard and supposedly taints all transgender people, but the onus there is on those who see such carry-on and decide to form a narrow definition there and then. I'd argue that only by being our own diverse selves can we show just how little ->-bleeped-<- matters in our definition as people.
I'm still waiting to hear a story with some anecdotal descriptions of how you have been wronged by the misgivings of your fellow transgendered, not acting 'respectful' :) .. and how that has impacted your life.
I like stories, especially stories with pictures! *smiles*.
Melan
Quote from: Gemma on September 18, 2010, 02:24:47 PM
I think I do understand, but there are much nicer ways of putting that across. I too realise that as things are now, we may hope to be pioneers in a world about to be changed into something more accepting and open. It's a naive thought, but a nice one to carry as a mantra.
I do, however, strongly object to being assumed as some sort of template, by you or others on the street. Trans folk are as diverse as any other type of person, and therefore there is no template. To homogenise us all for the supposed greater good - a mere reputation - is to undermine our very right to exist. Granted, it is not nice when somebody in the minority acts with clear disregard and supposedly taints all transgender people, but the onus there is on those who see such carry-on and decide to form a narrow definition there and then. I'd argue that only by being our own diverse selves can we show just how little ->-bleeped-<- matters in our definition as people.
I have to agree with this.
I act like myself and always will act like myself, regardless of how I look or if I happen to be transgendered. I act respectfully because I was raised that way and because I want to be respected, not because I'm scared of "tainting" the image of transgenders. (This doesn't mean I don't know how to have fun--I'm prone to dying my hair, pulling on 'goth' clothes, and going to concerts.) But many people carry their head high and love themselves, and they're not transgendered. But it's always good to be confident in yourself no matter what you identify as.
Quote from: iris1469 on September 18, 2010, 12:53:18 PMYou dont have to care about future transgender, but you should. Do you want them to be shouldered with the pain and suffering that most of us go through? If so, why? I am willing to lead by example, to shoulder as much grief as society as a whole or individuals wish to give me. AND I WILL love myself. I WILL carry my head high. In times that I am being treated unfairly and with prejudice, I will smile and carry myself confidently.....AND I WILL NEVER, EVER quit, EVER. meanwhile, any time I can help another, especially trans, I will.
Jolly good. Carry on.
Quote from: pebbles on September 17, 2010, 05:25:02 PM
You don't get it do you? I hate begin a transsexual... But I don't have a choice. My choice was become a transwoman or die.
I didn't become this way and endure these dreadful hardships make all these sacrifices for you or any group identity or to help further the shifting borders of an ill defined sleazy political movement.
GID happening to me... it's just a horrible misfortune with no reason... And I'm trying to recover my life and survive til tomorrow and I do it for me. Whether you think I'm carrying myself respectfully or not I'm not doing it for you.
I don't know you or anything, but this made me really sad. Although I do feel like being trans is hard, I don't think it's bad. I am proud of who I am and "what" I am. I feel lucky most times. Yes I do wish I didn't miss out on my childhood as a girl, I wish I could've been born a girl, but at the end of the day, I can't change the past. I can only change the future and I'm more than happy to do so. You shouldn't look at being trans as a curse.
Quote from: KimberlyJean on September 18, 2010, 03:32:26 PM
I don't know you or anything, but this made me really sad. Although I do feel like being trans is hard, I don't think it's bad. I am proud of who I am and "what" I am. I feel lucky most times. Yes I do wish I didn't miss out on my childhood as a girl, I wish I could've been born a girl, but at the end of the day, I can't change the past. I can only change the future and I'm more than happy to do so. You shouldn't look at being trans as a curse.
This x10
Okay. Since most of you disagree with me, I have to take another look within and see if I have been disrespectful an d just downright rude. Ill look into it, and thank you all for reading this and giving your thoughts on it.
hey, Iris, we just wanted to hear the inspiration behind your original post. It's hard to say anything meaningful if we don't know what's the point.
But now I see it was more of a theoretical one. Nothing wrong with that though, but then you shouldn't be surprised at the responses you're getting :)
g
Quote from: iris1469 on September 18, 2010, 10:16:40 PM
Okay. Since most of you disagree with me, I have to take another look within and see if I have been disrespectful an d just downright rude. Ill look into it, and thank you all for reading this and giving your thoughts on it.
Thoughtless and presumptuous more than disrespectful and downright rude.
Quote from: iris1469 on September 18, 2010, 10:16:40 PM
Okay. Since most of you disagree with me, I have to take another look within and see if I have been disrespectful an d just downright rude. Ill look into it, and thank you all for reading this and giving your thoughts on it.
Lets just say that you didn't exactly make yourself clear in the first post. The subsequent ones made much more sense and were more reasonable, but the first one came across as very presumptive and judgmental. You may not have intended it, but that sort of statement really needed a bit of background to understand. Hence the reactions you got.
Mind you I do think it is perhaps still a little dangerous to imply that people in this forum do not care about the future generations. I am past transition and SRS by nearly 30 years. To me you ARE the next generation! I have no ongoing support needs, I'm very well integrated into my society with a large network of friends. So why else would I be coming here if not to care about the next generation? And I am NOT alone in this. Many of those on here do it because they care.
Finally you don't have to be "out loud and proud". Although I am not in "stealth" I don't go around advertising my trans-ness, but I think it really isn't helpful or indeed healthy for anyone to ashamed of it. In private I will discuss it with those whom I think it appropriate. All of them know, that far from feeling ashamed of who and what I am, I actually feel a sense of real pride at my accomplishment and precisely because I am secure in that genuine pride I don't feel the need to go shouting parading and waving banners. Instead I am one of the unseen subversive activists, who you will never see marching down the street, but who can often be found quietly in boardrooms and the corridors of power making changes that will hopefully improve your life.
Quote from: rejennyrated on September 19, 2010, 04:32:51 AM
Lets just say that you didn't exactly make yourself clear in the first post. The subsequent ones made much more sense and were more reasonable, but the first one came across as very presumptive and judgmental. You may not have intended it, but that sort of statement really needed a bit of background to understand. Hence the reactions you got.
Mind you I do think it is perhaps still a little dangerous to imply that people in this forum do not care about the future generations. I am past transition and SRS by nearly 30 years. To me you ARE the next generation! I have no ongoing support needs, I'm very well integrated into my society with a large network of friends. So why else would I be coming here if not to care about the next generation? And I am NOT alone in this. Many of those on here do it because they care.
Finally you don't have to be "out loud and proud". Although I am not in "stealth" I don't go around advertising my trans-ness, but I think it really isn't helpful or indeed healthy for anyone to ashamed of it. In private I will discuss it with those whom I think it appropriate. All of them know, that far from feeling ashamed of who and what I am, I actually feel a sense of real pride at my accomplishment and precisely because I am secure in that genuine pride I don't feel the need to go shouting parading and waving banners. Instead I am one of the unseen subversive activists, who you will never see marching down the street, but who can often be found quietly in boardrooms and the corridors of power making changes that will hopefully improve your life.
Jenny!! I love this post!! This is why everyone loves you!! :D
This applies to any and every stereotype, and it is not the fault of the purpotrators (entirely) but of the stereotyper. If someone can be so ignorant to take the actions of one or two people to define the actions of a whole race, gender, age or in this case medical disorder, then they are in the wrong far moreso than the people who did the silly things.
"Stop stereotyping, you're giving the human race a bad name!"
^ Ahh, best reply yet.
Ellie , I'm constantly stessing to the transpeople that their actions DO have an effect on us as a whole ! ve been kicked off two Yaho forums that deltwith transpeople and saying the same thing . I just hope those that need to hear it agin will heed yer notes ! ellen
I would like to hear what the story is that made you post what you did. And no, I am not slamming you. I have had my own run-in with a situation that made me feel a bit like you seem to feel.
Quote from: Dana Lane on September 20, 2010, 10:57:35 AM
I would like to hear what the story is that made you post what you did. And no, I am not slamming you. I have had my own run-in with a situation that made me feel a bit like you seem to feel.
Lol, that's why I've asked twice! It may not be a funny story, but there is something meaty here... that needs to be told. Then we would have a worthwhile discussion.
Melan
Okay so it seems that there is interest in what motivated me to post the original, "PLEASE". I'll bite, here it is. I have been living female fulltime for 7 years now. Someone told me about a transgender meeting at a place called FRIENDS. So I thought i would go ahead and give it a shot. NEVER AGAIN! There were about 8 "girls" in attendance. I dont think that any of them had showered in the previous week. Half but makeup job, with MAJOR beardage going on, wearing WAY too little clothing....several of which had their, uh, male private personal parts OBVIOUS. No attempt to tuck.....that is what started me on this track of mind......THEN just before i posted the original "PLEASE" I was coming home from getting my bunny rabbit (was fixed) and low and behold at the bus stop is another one, not a bad makeup job, but with VERY dark 5 oclock shadow, saying in an exagerated voice, "hey daddy" to every man that drove by...and I could not help but to be insulted. I live in gang neighborhood and I try very hard to be the best I can be and then I see this creature and I feel and am of the opinion that it is this type of individual displaying this type of classless behaviour that assists strangers puttiong me in that category......
Okay, Now for those of you that read this and want to bag on me,,,,please keep it to yourself, this is just my opinion and my feelings....okay??..............................i just know that i should not click the post button..oh weell here goes it
Quote from: iris1469 on September 20, 2010, 02:36:17 PM
Okay so it seems that there is interest in what motivated me to post the original, "PLEASE". I'll bite, here it is. I have been living female fulltime for 7 years now. Someone told me about a transgender meeting at a place called FRIENDS. So I thought i would go ahead and give it a shot. NEVER AGAIN! There were about 8 "girls" in attendance. I dont think that any of them had showered in the previous week. Half but makeup job, with MAJOR beardage going on, wearing WAY too little clothing....several of which had their, uh, male private personal parts OBVIOUS. No attempt to tuck.....that is what started me on this track of mind......THEN just before i posted the original "PLEASE" I was coming home from getting my bunny rabbit (was fixed) and low and behold at the bus stop is another one, not a bad makeup job, but with VERY dark 5 oclock shadow, saying in an exagerated voice, "hey daddy" to every man that drove by...and I could not help but to be insulted. I live in gang neighborhood and I try very hard to be the best I can be and then I see this creature and I feel and am of the opinion that it is this type of individual displaying this type of classless behaviour that assists strangers puttiong me in that category......
Okay, Now for those of you that read this and want to bag on me,,,,please keep it to yourself, this is just my opinion and my feelings....okay??..............................i just know that i should not click the post button..oh weell here goes it
Strangely enough I too would find all that pretty disturbing too, but the point you may be missing is that by looking so bad these clowns may actually be doing you a strange kind of favour, because as I said previously while people are busy laughing at them and getting the idea that this is what all transpeople look like they are unlikely to spot you.
In effect their sad failure makes it easier for you to pass as female because presumably you don't look anything like them.
As for wanting to bag you, I doubt that anyone will want to do that, and if they do I promise you that I and my moderation colleagues will come down on them like a ton of bricks for violating Terms Of Service which specifically forbid personal attacks.
If you did anything wrong at all, it was merely failing to explain in the first place, and perhaps, wrongly making the tacit assumption that Susans would have any people like those you met.
I have known the folks here for some time now, and though we do have our occasional oddballs and misfits they are very much in the minority and the VAST majority of people on here are perfectly normal and like you anxious to be seen in a good light. Moreover I count many of them as my friends.
Okay. Thank you for listening and trying to understand.......well understanding! Makes me feel a whole lot better.
Hi Iris,
Thanks for the follow up, that makes understanding your viewpoint a lot easier :-*
I personally would have problems 'enjoying' going to such a social event, and would be extremely disappointed if it had been advertised as a sociable event for TG natured people.
I have been to TG friendly events in my home town, which most are held in very public clubs and pubs which are 'mainstream'. These have all been pleasant. I went to dinner last night with about 5 TG girls. One SO, and two couples who have TG daughters, both of whom couldn't attend due to the flu ::). It was a great night, lots of laughs, fun discussion, and nice pub food. One of the great things about the particular venue we were at is quite a few 'young' people go there, and some social clubs have a dinner tables there as well. I think it's great that we can show in a totally non-demonstrative way that we are exactly like everyone else. A group of friends who want to have dinner, a glass or two of wine and a nice night out.
It's also funny, at times , in the ladies loo. As ever two stalls, and several woman, waiting. I'm still amazed BTW of how woman just talk in the loo :laugh:. Biggest gender difference there is :laugh:.
One young woman joked with me when I made a 'Oh No about the queue', (very friendly nothing rude), 'you could always go next door and point' . A roll of fun laughter, 'And you young lady can run always next door and squat'. More laughter. Then a multi person discussion on boy and girl toilets, and habits. Several of us were close to weeping. It was a good night.
I also think your point about prostitution is pertinent. Although I see little difference between, male, female or TG prostitution. It is often argued that prostitution is a way out for people with no job skills and terrible family problems. It has been argued' on this site, as a means of raising the money for SRS.
I have to admit I tend to reject those arguments. There are people of every gender that will have the mental strength to survive and use being prostituted for their own gain. I think, an opinion based without factual evidence, that these people are few and far between.
But to your point about the 'TG' at the bus stop, and to those at the social event. These in my opinion are not normal people who are dealing with gender issues. They are dealing with other issues. Their aim in life is. I believe, different to anyone's else I have met on this site, and as a Mod, I've met some doodies ::) ::). There (apparent) desires are not those that I have seen in this community. I have no desire to judge them, not my role in life. I think I feel sorry for them.
Keep posting Iris, you have created some nice discussion, when the info came out :-* :-*
Cindy
Quote from: CindyJames on September 21, 2010, 04:06:06 AM
I think I feel sorry for them.
There's no need for that I think. They don't necessarily have to be losers. They do "something" that makes them feel good. At least I hope that they're happy that way :)
g