Most of the people who regularly post here know I'm not transsexual, though I believed to be so and at one point had all the body symptoms (for more details about that, check out one of my first posts). Recently a thread has been made, "how do you know other girls don't feel the same?" and the general consensus, from what I was able to gather, was that if you had female body dysphoria, you had to be trans. As I know on my own skin this is not true, I'll try to post other girls' (and possibly boys') accounts and blog, people who once suffered from gender dysphoria for various reasons, not necessarily for the "wrong inner body map" motive. As transitioning is a very drastic step, one that costs in physical, mental and monetary terms, I feel necessary to let people know all the alternative reasons they might feel dysphoric for.
This blog is centered mainly on those young girls(?) who like yaoi to the point of self-identification with male characters, but it encompasses much more: it's basically a tomboy's point of view and why she might feel the need to transition. I know there are some anime/j-rock/yaoi fans in this forum and this is especially addressed to them.
So without further ado, here's the site: http://tomboyrevolution.blogspot.com/ (http://tomboyrevolution.blogspot.com/) . Good reading and good day
Thanks for the link BT. It's funny for me to read things like don't transition if you are a tomboy (and yes I know that that site is aimed at female-bodied individuals) because for me, I feel like a tomboy, I was just born a boy.
Well, if you are a male tomboy (yes, I think being a tomboy can be "done" by a male), that doesn't really change things I think :P
Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 01, 2010, 02:02:29 PM
Well, if you are a male tomboy (yes, I think being a tomboy can be "done" by a male), that doesn't really change things I think :P
But isn't a tomboy still self-identified as a female? In that case the whole concept of a 'male' tomboy would be an oxymoron. (Mind you I am not arguing with you, just putting in my '2 cent')
Transition certainly isn't right for everyone. That's why you take your time and think it though, see a therapist, etc.
I guess this doesn't apply to me, since I read the whole thing in a state of confusion. I don't know what yaoi is though, so that probably had something to do with it... I know that everyone can hate their bodies, but my understanding was that women wished that their bodies were different versions of female, not that their female parts would disappear and be replaced by male ones. At least that's what my female friends have told me.
I have met a couple of people who come across as the type of people this blog is talking about. The term "girl->-bleeped-<-s" is being used lately. I worry I come across like this sometimes because I'm a bit of a weaboo and admire androgyny
Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 01, 2010, 01:26:09 PM
Most of the people who regularly post here know I'm not transsexual, though I believed to be so and at one point had all the body symptoms (for more details about that, check out one of my first posts). Recently a thread has been made, "how do you know other girls don't feel the same?" and the general consensus, from what I was able to gather, was that if you had female body dysphoria, you had to be trans. As I know on my own skin this is not true, I'll try to post other girls' (and possibly boys') accounts and blog, people who once suffered from gender dysphoria for various reasons, not necessarily for the "wrong inner body map" motive. As transitioning is a very drastic step, one that costs in physical, mental and monetary terms, I feel necessary to let people know all the alternative reasons they might feel dysphoric for.
This blog is centered mainly on those young girls(?) who like yaoi to the point of self-identification with male characters, but it encompasses much more: it's basically a tomboy's point of view and why she might feel the need to transition. I know there are some anime/j-rock/yaoi fans in this forum and this is especially addressed to them.
So without further ado, here's the site: http://tomboyrevolution.blogspot.com/ (http://tomboyrevolution.blogspot.com/) . Good reading and good day
Since I suppose it was my topic that inspired this post, I feel I should comment.
Sure, there are some - possibly many - yaoi/jrock/anime fans that probably have wanted to be a guy at some point because they thought it to be glamorous, and some could have had gender dysphoria. However, you also must think: there are male fans of those things too.
I like anime, I've liked it since I was ten. I absolutely love jrock, and yaoi isn't so bad, but I'm a mostly straight man. :-\ So the theory that they put, of wanting to be a gay guy because it's glamorous or whatever, doesn't make much sense in my opinion.
To be honest, I'd rather be an ugly guy than a pretty girl (yeah, that probably sounds stuck up; I know I make a pretty girl, but I'm not a girl, you know?)
Edit:// There was also something else I was going to add, but I can't remember. I'll come back and edit if I remember.
Quote from: niamh on November 01, 2010, 02:05:24 PM
But isn't a tomboy still self-identified as a female? In that case the whole concept of a 'male' tomboy would be an oxymoron. (Mind you I am not arguing with you, just putting in my '2 cent')
I think being a tomboy is different than being "maleish". It's its own style.
And Devyn, I think her theory makes sense if put in the appropriate context. It may not apply to you, but it does to someone else.
And another thing, that blog doesn't solely focus on yaoi, but goes on a bit why a girl might feel the need to be a guy in a society like ours.
It's a bit long but I suggest reading all the sections, they are good.
Well, people transition for different reasons, obviously the most common one is being TS, but i have known people to transition for money or status, or some fetish.. however they typically dont find it to their liking later. Heh, my therapist said, "well, if you transition and you really aren't TS, you will be when your done."
Quote from: Izumi on November 01, 2010, 02:26:31 PM
Well, people transition for different reasons, obviously the most common one is being TS, but i have known people to transition for money or status, or some fetish.. however they typically dont find it to their liking later. Heh, my therapist said, "well, if you transition and you really aren't TS, you will be when your done."
Exactly
Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 01, 2010, 02:18:40 PM
And another thing, that blog doesn't solely focus on yaoi, but goes on a bit why a girl might feel the need to be a guy in a society like ours.
I used to partially blame my dysphoria on the society we live in. It just seemed like a reasonable explanation. Then I traveled enough to realize that I felt male, not female, in every society I experienced, no matter what the gender roles were there. The more I traveled, the clearer this became.
I've known a few tomboys over the years and it just wasn't the same. It seemed to me that tomboys were more of the "just because I'm a girl doesn't mean I can't do anything a boy can do" variety. Which I'm all for, but I'm not a tomboy.
I'm sure it can get cloudy for people for a variety of reasons and in general the teenage years are often spent in confusion also for many reasons. When puberty hits it's awkward and weird and can certainly cause dysphoric symptoms. But there are those of us who, from the earliest memories were not female at all - yet physically have female bits. For us, the confusion was never "WHO I am" (male or female? ... because it was always male) but rather "WHY I am" (why do I have this body and not the one that matches my brain?) The only time I've ever questioned my brain is when I was a teenager and I listened to some ->-bleeped-<- therapist try to tell me I had a disorder. That messed me up considerably and my teenage years were spent is a massive depression where I hated myself and my body even more because someone had drilled it into my head that there was something radically wrong with me. Therapy doesn't always work - sometimes it makes things worse.
People like me don't have a problem. We're a natural occurrence on the scale of human birth variation. Yet we've had to endure shame, depression, confusion, people telling us we're sick or we have a disorder or a disease. And why? Simply because the brain doesn't fully match the body. Everyone has some explanation for us as to why. What should happen is just accepting the fact that is DOES happen - and it's NORMAL. I guess we're a long way off from that though so we all just find our own ways to deal.
Yes, transitioning your body to match your mind is a big step - it causes changes that are not exactly reversible, etc. etc. etc. Some people, like yourself, need to start down that road to even realize it's not for them. Some people, like me, have decided that they don't need to transition to be who they really are (although I'm a bit of an odd exception considering all my bits don't exactly conform to "female" and neither does my hormone profile). I know what I'm not though - female. I'm not "butch" ... I'm not a "tomboy" ... I'm not a lesbian ... I'm not a fakeboi ... I'm not any other label that is slapped on females that happen to be/act/feel more "male" but don't necessarily want a dick. I already have dick and I always have and it took me a long damn time to realize that people trying to push me in the wrong box was what was causing 99% of my problems.
/rant over.
The gist of it is that everyone that questions their own personal gender, their body or their mind in regards to gender is on their own journey. They have to find what personally works for them to make them feel their best and interface with society. Maybe it's a label that makes someone feel great. Maybe it's knowing that others are feeling just like you. Maybe therapy does work for some. Maybe it's transitioning. Whatever it is, it's a personal expedition to find it. You found yours obviously, and there's a lot of people still working through it. But I get the hunch that you're more on the side that transsexuals don't really exist and that they just need to get cozy with their "femaleness". Obviously there's a broad spectrum out there of how people identify themselves but I honestly don't think a lot of the "types" mentioned on that blog are the types who want to cut their tits off and get a dick permanently either.
I think the blog is actually very good and very fair. I used to like yaoi when I was younger, then I quickly got fed up with the romanticism of it and how the characters are almost always very feminine, one especially so. Now I can't take the genre seriously at all, because it is just so painfully obviously aimed at women rather than men.
I don't know if there are any people on here that the blog does ring true for. I expect that most of the yaoi fans who briefly flirt with transition won't make it as far as this site, or as far as their GP. It just doesn't seem likely to me.
I dig yaoi. Sure you have to sift through some garbage, but there are some good ones out there. I prefer shonen ai more though, they tend to have better stories.
But anyway, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of talking about how if one likes yaoi or anime or jrock, that we're just "fangirls" and not trans. I am part Japanese so I'm into the Japanese culture quite a bit and am tired of defending it.
I seriously have had enough of the whole "if you like yaoi then you're not trans, you're doing it as a fantasy" topic. I'm also seriously over the whole "the fan girls just want to look like a bishie" line too. Sorry, but I just got done reading dirt's blog and comments, someone linked because they used their picture, about how yaoi is turning girls into ftms and I'm still fuming over it. I've never met anyone nor saw any case of young girls actually transitioning because they like yaoi. Some obsessed fans/crossplayers may question their gender identity, but seriously when it comes down to hormones and surgery? I don't see it happening.
"I expect that most of the yaoi fans who briefly flirt with transition won't make it as far as this site, or as far as their GP. It just doesn't seem likely to me. " I agree.
interesting blog.. just read through it.
I never understood the attraction to yaoi. One of my guy friends watchs it.. and I was disturbed by it and had to turn it off within a few minutes. How people can find that kind of lifestyle attractive...? I donno.
I found it interesting that you addressed the issues around being contrained by gender and how liberating that feeling can make you feel more comfortable in who you are and lessen the need to transition. I think that can hold true for many people.. but for some it's obviously not true. I never conformed to my gender boundaries.. I was the girl who was breaking the track and field records back in junior high, winning lots of sporting awards, competing at the pro level nationally for a certain individual sport. I go to the gym and lift more weight then many of the guys, I've taken courses from the DND on Aircraft mainetnce, I work on a farm and can handle the toughest jobs. There is nothing about me that doesn't break that gender barrier.. and I'm comfortable in that. I don't even pass for female when I'm trying sometimes. My goal to transition isn't to break those gender barriers.. because I broke them long ago.. often true transition is about other innate needs. Ones that cant be silenced by being comfortable in breaking the gender barriers, etc. Ones that will take you through hell until they are confronted. The inner demons. I donno where I was going with... just trying to point a logical arguement against the... transitioning people aren't comfortable in asserting themselves as who they feel they should be or something that I got from your blog. I think it's true in many cases... the tomboy is a rather common individual that might flirt with the idea of transition.. but I think there are other reasons that some individuals see the need to transition.
Quote from: Shay on November 01, 2010, 03:43:20 PM
But anyway, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of talking about how if one likes yaoi or anime or jrock, that we're just "fangirls" and not trans. I am part Japanese so I'm into the Japanese culture quite a bit and am tired of defending it.
I seriously have had enough of the whole "if you like yaoi then you're not trans, you're doing it as a fantasy" ...
...dirt's blog and comments, someone linked because they used their picture, about how yaoi is turning girls into ftms and I'm still fuming over it.
This too ^^ . It's mass generalizations like that everyone who likes those things are just "fangirls" or whatever, that are a problem. And like Shay pointed out, it comes from within the fan community itself as well. And there's a Dirt blog about yaoi turning girls into FTMs?! Jeez. All I see is a lot of assumptions and misinformation with trying to correlate the two. There are trans individuals who like lots of things - because trans people are just people like everyone else. But what I find the most problematic is being told "oh you're not really trans" as well.
Hi Bluetraveler,
Sorry for another long posting again. I just couldn't help myself again :-\.
I think you make very important contributions to this forum as a woman who has found out she's not trans, though of course your view is as subjective as anybody's else. Not you saying to other people they're not trans, just "be careful if...", it's great to have such a voice here. Thank you very much for it, and go on posting, there's always so much encouragement in these forums and not enough critical voices, as people tend to think others are like them. So your presence helps a lot against this unhealthy dynamic. A useful balance.
I think it's important that the yaoi/trans*/girl->-bleeped-<-(?) blog you present exists, but I cannot write anything sensible about it as I have no clue about yaoi and girl->-bleeped-<- is just a very exotic but interesting phenomenon for me which I don't truly understand or can relate to well. Also, there's not much on the blog you linked to yet, and it's for a very specific clientele, plus for a very specific phase of their life so I don't know if this blog will keep on living for long. However, I may imagine a few yaoi aficionados or girl->-bleeped-<-s might get confused about their gender identity at least for a while. And if other things add to it, it may cause a disaster at worst. As Izumi said when quoting her therapist, transitioning if you're not transsexual causes you to become transsexual, which I wouldn't even want my worst enemies to happen to them.
Anyway, it would be a great idea to collect reports from detransitioners and from people who found out they're not trans on a website. So that people could read that stuff and think thoroughly whether that may apply to them or not. But that would be a blog with a much more general topic than the blog you've linked to. I really missed this kind of source before I went on T, I searched like crazy but did not find much. If your therapist is the one who may write you a letter for hormones or surgery or might deny you the letters in case you're deemed not suitable, and you want these letters, you cannot discuss all your doubts with them sincerely as you don't want to jeopardize the letters. It's an unhealthy dynamic, so information for self-diagnosis may be good here, at least better than nothing. Just to fill out a little bit the hole which therapy was originally supposed to fill out well according to the Standards of Care, but which it often fails to do due to this pressure.
About female body images - well what I know is that most women think they are ugly as hell. It's so horrible, this effect of society's pressure. There are so many utterly beautiful women ashamed of their bodies, it's really very sad. Plus, the value of a woman in our societies is still strongly linked to how she looks (and to her youth). And I know quite a lot of women whose bodies I don't find physically attractive, but who have a formidable aura which blows your mind away and makes you feel speechless like a schoolboy who has just fallen in love. And make your mind go crazy and give you... well... lots of 18+ inspiration. Works better for me than boring, dull people deemed beautiful by society's standards. Maybe that's just me, but I'm sure lots of other people tick like me as well here.
Body dysphoria - a close friend of mine developed it. She has had to take long-term medications, which have made her fat for the last 10 years. Since then, the has been hating her body, though she looks great in both thin and thick mode, and she has a great aura as well, a great personality, plus a very beautiful face and gorgeous, very long hair. Well, at least, she can kind of understand that her FTM partner has trouble with his body up to a certain degree, by thinking about her own body and how it changed into something she
a) doesn't like because her personal taste says it's not beautiful,
b) doesn't like because society says it's not beautiful,
c) is not how she sees herself in her mind and always surprises her when she looks in the mirror,
d) clashes with her inner body map as she still tends to get caught in table corners etc. as she tends to forget she needs more space between the table corner and her body than she used to need,
e) society reminds her of new body quite often, in the way people behave towards her, sometimes bluntly with teenagers yelling nasty stuff at her cause she's thick, sometimes just in a very subtle way, sometimes in-between. Her role in society has clearly changed due to other people's perception.
In other words, she's not transsexual, but "trans-thin". Body dysphoria has so much in common with transsexuality that I could imagine it can get confused in some cases, especially if other things add up to it. Even for a very long time, until SRS is over.
Quote from: Shay on November 01, 2010, 03:43:20 PM
Sorry, but I just got done reading dirt's blog and comments, someone linked because they used their picture, about how yaoi is turning girls into ftms and I'm still fuming over it.
After reading this I just checked and found she has used one of my pictures too. I'm really shocked. So I've taken all my pictures off the internet. Never heard or read the like of it before.
So reading/watching gay anime porn makes straight tomboy girls think they are trans ???
Quote from: Alessandro on November 01, 2010, 06:41:00 PM
After reading this I just checked and found she has used one of my pictures too. I'm really shocked. So I've taken all my pictures off the internet. Never heard or read the like of it before.
she used more recently? I'm always tempted to check her blog out to see if she's finally used one of my pics.. because she's used pics from all arouny my posts before.. but never actually uses me.. lolz. However I'm forbidden from checking out her blog anymore cuz it just pisses me off.
Quote from: Sharky on November 01, 2010, 06:47:14 PM
So reading/watching gay anime porn makes straight tomboy girls think they are trans ???
I could imagine, in some extreme cases, yes.
We have a TS support group in my region which is somewhat weird, but not completely silly. Usually, the group chief keeps away ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s and weirdos so that they don't consume the precious time. Once, this did not work, as the group chief was ill or on vacation. A new person came, together with wife. (I use singular "they" from now on) Well this person thought they were transsexual cause they had watched lots of lesbian porn lately, and when jerking off to it, it felt physically somewhat different than when jerking off to straight porn, and they also loved to imagine they were one of the girls doing the stuff there. That's how they got the idea that they were transsexual.
They could not relate to anything MTFs told of their own past about not feeling at ease in their body, feeling like they were in the wrong body/body had developped wrongly, being forced into gender roles that did not fit to their inner beings, identifying as girls not boys, not liking wrong pronouns etc. Well, NONE of that applied to this new visitor. They were puzzled at hearing these things, did not know what that was, and said - no, I didn't ever have any of that. Bluntly, honestly. Well and this person had already been taking hormones clandestinally for 3 months. I think this person had just elaborated their masturbation technique or improved their perception so that new physical sensations came up, and might have been a crossdreamer as well (i. e. getting off on imagining oneself as a person of the other sex). But transsexual? Rather not.
Well the other people of that group were like WTF? looking at one another, but politely asked this person to go see a gender therapist to sort out what's really going on, and that taking hormones without check-ups can be dangerous so this should get checked as well, by an endocrinologist.
So yes, I've seen weird things happen and on the face of the planet, there are lots of people who tend to fool themselves. Be it just to avoid admitting that they have somewhat original fetishes or sex fantasies. Good thing about it, it shows that being transsexual is not shunned at as much as it used to be, if they prefer this explanation. Bad thing is if they go the whole transition path and jump through the hoops, as physical transition would turn them into transsexuals. And living in a wrong body and wrong gender is so awful I don't even wish this for my worst enemies.
So I can imagine some female gay porn/erotica enthusiast go through the whole trans path for such bad reasons, yes. You can always fool your therapist, or hide things away from them, depending on how sensitive they are. And the current Standards of Care system with its hoops to jump through does not help here to sort these cases out, as long as people are stubborn enough and good at lying. For many people, trans or not, the system does not encourage taking it seriously and respecting it, it rather presents as nasty hoops.
Hello all :) I'm the creator of TomboyRevolution; bluetraveler was kind enough to show me to this thread after posting a link to the blog here.
The people I'm trying to reach with my blog are certainly a very very small (and rather young) minority, and even fewer of them go so far as to identify as FtM. As is often the case with authors of sites like these, I once believed I was FtM and later realized that I was not. But rather than assuming that all transgendered people have identical experiences to mine, I assumed I was a very odd isolated case. I've met and spoken with far too many FtM and MtF people to assume that transsexuality "isn't real" (or is only a fetish) or anything so repulsively closed-minded.
It wasn't until much later that I started meeting the sorts of people to whom I'm writing and realized that my case was not an isolated incident. My observations about this trend sparked a lot of internet discussion and someone recommended a blog, just so others could reliably find the same information.
I really think it's critical to distinguish between legitimate FtMs, and women who simply have very deeply ingrained internalized misogyny. It does nobody any good when self-hating straight women become confused with actual FtMs.
In communities of women who like yaoi (yaoi is basically idealized gay male romance stories in cartoon/comic form) sexism is sadly somewhat common, and most of the people to whom the blog is directed are identifiable because they're often shockingly sexist ("boys can do this, girls can't...women are all like THIS and men are all like THAT...when guys do this it's hot, when girls do this it's disgusting. Good thing I'm a guy!")
I'm not even sure the blog applies to anyone on a forum like this (likely not) but I'm ready for feedback or questions/criticisms if anyone is interested :) Apologies in advance if I've offended anyone.
Hi Sho,
I think the work you do is very important, and I get what you wrote, and that's absolutely okay what you write. I never thought your blog would be for bashing FTMs or something like this, just to help people sort themselves out if they're on the wrong track. Sure, the shrinks write a lot about differential diagnoses and things which may get confused with being transsexual. But the internet offers possibilities for people to meet and to figure out what's the matter with them over thousands of miles, and I think it's much more progressive, less transphobic and more up-to-date than many of the shrinks' publications for several reasons.
It's also important for trans people to know about these things when they meet other people who are questioning themselves. Not to talk them into anything, just to tell them - listen, there are transsexuals, but there are also genderqueers, girl->-bleeped-<-s, etc., it's not all black and white, try to figure out what suits you best BEFORE you take hormones, go full-time and get surgery. As these measures are quite extreme. Sometimes, it's just a silly word and definition lacking, which makes people stay confused for long. Boxes are just boxes, but they may help as an orientation.
It just makes me wonder if your blog will exist for long, as it was a phase in your life and you might not want to write tons of things about it for decades. In case you lose interest in the future, you might hand the blog over to somebody else so it doesn't get lost.
I didn't think there was anything "wrong" with the blog and I certainly wasn't offended by it. And I also think that it's very good to have other viewpoints here. I AM one of those viewpoints (and I have taken some ->-bleeped-<- for it because I happened to be "too vocal" about a certain topic).
Bluetraveler experienced something in her life that was really important to her and now she wants to share with others who might be in the same "boat". I get that. And like I said, I'm all for other viewpoints because I myself have one that's contrary to other people on here. I think it's important for information to be out there and for people's unique stories to be told. Like I said, I think there's a huge variation of possibilities when it comes to gender identity.
Yeah, I think your blog is very helpful Sho and you are asking an important question of people without being hateful towards the trans community (unlike the blogger previously mentioned).
It certainly made me have a think, because several years ago all of that would have applied to me. Also the thing about fetishalisation that Fencesitter posted has made me think. Because I very much am sexually attracted to gay men and enjoy sex only in that context. Sadly enough though my body has never been quite right and the feelings have been getting worse and worse up until this point. As much as I would like to find a way out of transitioning and a way to be comfortable female I just don't think it is possible for me. But for anybody who doesn't experience gender dysphoria, get out if you can!
I don't want to transition to be the dashing, devilishly handsome man who makes the ladies swoon. I want to transition because I am sick and tired of having to wake up in the wrong body, of that dreadful feeling when one is reminded of things that shouldn't be there, of people constantly mistaking me for a girl, of hearing the squeaky voice and feeling the chest-blobs and all that stuff.
My feelings awoke in puberty, so am I really trans, though?
I don't see anything wrong with boys doing "girly" things and girls doing "boyish" things, it's just that I am not a tomboy or a butch; I'm a boy. Not a boyish girl, not a mannish woman, just a boy.
My girlfriend loved yaoi and got me to read gravitation, and yaoi actually set off my dysphoria and drove me to try to pass more often; I don't even know why, I prefer heterosexual pairings and always have, maybe it was because these "men" looked androgynous or even girly and these girls were still accepting them as men so I thought maybe I had a chance. Even then I wasn't trying to look like a bishie; more like a male goth/punk; black trench coats, long hair, fingerless black gloves LOL my highschool tool phase. Should have been in aisle five at home depot. I think the making out after reading it/while reading it contributed, even thinking about being with a woman the way I look now will set me off on the "I feel totally wrong, not a lesbian etc" front. It probably didn't help that my girlfriend kept telling me, albeit in a roundabout way, that her favorite thing about me was my masculine carriage and body language (She kept saying I reminded her of some Eclipse guy from something or other, I remember he was a classy adult demon teacher or some ->-bleeped-<--- more than creepily enough one of my long-time friends adopted the name of his partner as her online tag, that gave me the jibblies). At the time I actually did assume I was a girl->-bleeped-<-* because a lot of the things "other" rabid yaoi fans (considering I ceased giving a flying f*** about yaoi the second I broke up with this girl I think I was really a fan of the cuddles) were saying were things I could relate to as stuff that gave me acute dysphoric feelings or anger (expectations about women, etc) despite that they were very obviously ladies and OK with it, I didn't know they'd never felt that way before becoming yaoi fans, that was never discussed. The rampant sexism pissed me off and I kept telling them they were making it harder on everyone to behave that way. Most of them grew out of it by now though, LOL
Point being, yaoi confusion goes both ways I'm afraid.
*now I think about it more, also because when my friend showed me step by step pics of the bottom surgery procedure and I said I'd be scared to do it and didn't want to, we decided I couldn't be trans if I didn't want the surgery and another friend sick of dealing with girl->-bleeped-<-s thought I was a girl->-bleeped-<- too; ugh~
I haven't had a chance to go over the site in detail, but from what I see I think it is a very good site.
Transitioning is the LAST thing a person should do. If there is any other possible way of dealing with the feelings of dysphoria then they should do that. And I agree that anyone who is thinking about it look at every possible alternative available. That is one of the reasons that therapy plays such a big part in the process. And having a place for someone view the alternatives is a very good idea.
We here at Susan's and other trans sites, by definition attract people who ARE trans and who are or have transitioned, but that does not mean that this is the answer for everyone. And I would counsel anyone thinking about it to see what alternatives are out there.
I want to look at it more when I have a chance, but from what I see right now it is a very good site.
Thank you!
-Sandy
Quote from: insideontheoutside on November 01, 2010, 02:40:08 PMBut there are those of us who, from the earliest memories were not female at all - yet physically have female bits. For us, the confusion was never "WHO I am" (male or female? ... because it was always male) but rather "WHY I am" (why do I have this body and not the one that matches my brain?)
This. I've always known I was a guy. For a long time I surrendered to my fate and tried to be a girl, but even then I knew I was a guy and mentally talked to myself as a male identity. There's a huge difference between tomboys and transmen.
Then I found out that I
don't have to surrender to my situation. I can transition and gain the body (mostly) I've always wanted. I could finally have the body I was meant to have. People could see me for the person I really am and acknowledge it. I could
be the person I really am. This is why I chose transition. To take off the mask and become the real me. I've waited all my life for this.
Bluetraveler, I appreciate you sharing these things and I'm positive there are some out there who aren't sure if they're transsexual or not. This is why you do some serious soul-searching and don't rush into transition. However, just because you thought you were transsexual but ended up not being doesn't mean the majority of us are that way. Frankly, I find this conclusion insulting- including the stereotypes in that blog.
If anyone's not sure if they're transsexual or not think things over and don't rush into anything. The true answer will come to you. Transition is very hard and is an unknown road. You never know what will happen, what other's reactions will be or where you'll end up. However, no matter the pain or what's put up on the table, if you are transsexual then being able to be your true self is worth it. Most likely you will lose something... but you'll again yourself.
Quote from: Sandy on November 02, 2010, 06:02:50 AM
I haven't had a chance to go over the site in detail, but from what I see I think it is a very good site.Transitioning is the LAST thing a person should do. If there is any other possible way of dealing with the feelings of dysphoria then they should do that. And I agree that anyone who is thinking about it look at every possible alternative available. That is one of the reasons that therapy plays such a big part in the process. And having a place for someone view the alternatives is a very good idea.
We here at Susan's and other trans sites, by definition attract people who ARE trans and who are or have transitioned, but that does not mean that this is the answer for everyone. And I would counsel anyone thinking about it to see what alternatives are out there.
-Sandy
Totally agree with Sandy.
Jay
I had a chance to glance over the site, and I agree that it's good; it provides some important food for thought.
Ironically, I currently have achieved that 'bishounen' look (ngh) and I'm trying to push past it so I can look distinctly male. It's why I work so hard at building muscles and hoping daily that I'll get a little more facial hair, and why I want that jaw/chin implant. Reading it kind of reaffirmed my trans feelings.
Anyway, I'm glad to see reasonable discourse on this matter. It is constructive and important, because there definitely are people who should NOT transition but you can't just point fingers and say "you can, but you cannot". Bullying or shaming people gets nowhere, but providing thoughtful commentary can do a lot of good.
I really appreciate everyone's feedback on the site :) Of course it's not addressed to people who are transgendered per se, but those who might misidentify as such, so I really wanted to know if I was casting too broad of a "net" when trying to explain to people that this and that behavior don't necessarily make them trans. (If anyone thinks any observations on the blog are indicating this sort of thing, please let me know.)
I think the people to whom the blog applies are young girls suffering from dysphoria, and who see their gay-male-romances (either reading them, or in extreme cases wanting to participate in them) as being a way to avoid the discomfort they have with their bodies and their sexuality. But it's not unusual for people to have quite extreme discomfort with their bodies and this can occur separately from being transgendered, like Fencesitter's friend.
I think one of the critical differences is that the dysphoria in these special cases often does not begin until their teens, and many of these people start by being deeply dissatisfied with themselves and only later come to conclude that changing their gender will help them. This is why, I think, that the "yaoi fan" aspect is so important, even though it narrows down the group to whom I'm speaking -- because these are generally people to whom the idea of transition (or of having a brain/body gender discrepancy) had never occurred prior to reading this sort of fiction.
And for a variety of reasons yaoi makes women feel worse about themselves, often to the degree that its fan will furiously decry any attempt to add any heterosexual elements to the stories -- several series do exclude female characters completely. (I'm sorry Aegir had a negative experience with yaoi -- it does make a lot of people's dysphoria worse.)
(Radar, if you're willing to point out which stereotypes you found offensive, I'd appreciate it. Since I started the blog I've already changed some content based on other readers' feedback.)
I just don't like it when people try to generalize being transsexual and whether you are one or not. Like if you have interest in certain things then you can't be transsexual. The thing is nobody can tell anyone if they're transsexual or not... only the person can know.
In retrospect I wasn't so much upset with your blog or what it said, just the idea of generalizing in particular. Almost all of our lives we've been dismissed, told we're crazy or sick and are just confused or laughed at. Yes, there are those out there confused and not sure if they're transsexual. For them they need to look very closely at all aspects and find out what's really going on before going too deep into transition because once you've gone far enough there's little turning back. But for people like me who have gone through this for 30+ years before transition, trust me, we know.
I guess that's why I hate generalizing so much. I was foolish to wait so long out of fear and ignorance from others. I don't want that to happen to a younger guy. People try to plant seeds of doubt, fear and shame into us all our lives for feeling this way. When people say you can't or most likely aren't really trans because of "x" that bothers me. We all have our own definition of what makes a man (or woman).
I will admit I'm ignorant on yaoi and don't understand it's dynamics. I don't understand how a girl, who's not transsexual, would want to transition into a man because of it. It's one thing to occasionally fantasize about it, but to go so far as to work on physically becoming a man when not a transsexual I don't understand. Most women are unhappy with their bodies and some obsess about changing it to how they want it (dieting, exercising, plastic surgery. ect.). However, almost all of them are not transsexuals (our percentage is very low).
But like I said I don't know much about yaoi or the phenomenon around it, but evidently this must happen since it's been documented. If someone has doubts about being transsexual then they need to do their research. However, many of us have buried it inside and tried to deny it for so long due to outside influences. It's a tricky slope and it's a journey of discovery each must do on their own and make their own decisions. That's why I hate it when someone is dismissed and told they're not a transsexual after they realize they truly are. I'm not saying you are doing this, because you bring up good points and things someone who's not sure can think about. I just hate people's and society's generalisations overall. They would rather believe you're wrong than accept that transsexualism is real and happens. It destroys their neat boxed-in concept of the world.
I can actually understand all of this, not from personal experience but more so look at the people I have seen over the 9 years I was apart of the Japanese anime/manga industry. It does happen. I have a group of female friends who constantly cross dress and tries to get themselves into weird sexual situation usually with another female who is also a fangirl. They don't want to transition, they're just so into whatever it is they're watching/reading that they just become it.
To be honest, the girls who become these "yaoi" fangirls, at least from what I have seen, are the ones who were pretty much socially awkward from the beginning. Kind of like they're withdrawn. To sum it up, it's like being a geek/nerd. Can't function well with normal society. Can't hold a conversation unless it's about whatever subject they're interested in, etc.
I know for sure that I'm not one of these. I read yaoi in order to sell it to people, never really for enjoyment. But it is very interesting what in general, the anime world makes fans do. I have never seen such a bigger psychological effect based around a genre of animation and comic books. Actually, the Japanese culture in general has a huge influence on many people.
Thanks for posting this blog. :)
Quote from: [CRYPT] Chris on November 03, 2010, 12:15:33 PM
I have a group of female friends who constantly cross dress and tries to get themselves into weird sexual situation usually with another female who is also a fangirl. They don't want to transition, they're just so into whatever it is they're watching/reading that they just become it.
Um, what do you mean by this and what do you mean by 'wierd'? Cos I do something similar, I like roleplaying and stuff with my partner. But I don't see it as wierd or a problem when someone wants to become something in particular sexually. For me it helps me get past my dysphoria.
Quote from: Alessandro on November 03, 2010, 02:03:50 PM
Um, what do you mean by this and what do you mean by 'wierd'? Cos I do something similar, I like roleplaying and stuff with my partner. But I don't see it as wierd or a problem when someone wants to become something in particular sexually. For me it helps me get past my dysphoria.
Role play is cool with me. What I mean by weird is they...get over dramatic and tries to get themselves into not every day situation. For example...say one of them takes a fall, and ends up getting a small cut on her knee or w/e. She ends up making more than a big deal out of it until her "partner" helps her take care of that booboo...and they then have these weird...love moments that are seen in anime/manga.
That's what I mean by 'weird'. I can understand role play and all that, it's just they turn everyday life stuff to these dramatic situations and expects life to be like an anime they watch or a manga they have read.
Quote from: [CRYPT] Chris on November 04, 2010, 03:57:59 AM
Role play is cool with me. What I mean by weird is they...get over dramatic and tries to get themselves into not every day situation. For example...say one of them takes a fall, and ends up getting a small cut on her knee or w/e. She ends up making more than a big deal out of it until her "partner" helps her take care of that booboo...and they then have these weird...love moments that are seen in anime/manga.
That's what I mean by 'weird'. I can understand role play and all that, it's just they turn everyday life stuff to these dramatic situations and expects life to be like an anime they watch or a manga they have read.
Yeah, now you've explained it that is pretty wierd! Those 'love moments' are pretty much what put me off yaoi in the first place. It's unrealistic!
Interesting, the situation is a bit like this as well with some of the Fantasy etc. role players I've met in my life. Kinda weird.
Quote from: Kvall on November 03, 2010, 11:17:30 PM
Why are we delayed or denied our medically necessary care because a tiny handful of cis people could get hurt?
No one is denying or delaying trans people treatment. I have never said nor advocated so. I'm not going in your house and stop you from injecting testosterone. And if one trans person got his transition delayed to better examine his motives, while one "cis" (I hate the term because it implies we are and have always been sure on what side we stand on) person by doing the same thing didn't have her life ruined, that's all good in my opinion. You by arguing the opposite sound callous, I'm afraid. After all, trans people are
a tiny handful themselves, no?
Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 04, 2010, 07:24:43 AM
And if one trans person got his transition delayed to better examine his motives, while one "cis" person by doing the same thing didn't have her life ruined, that's all good in my opinion.
I think whether someone's life would be 'ruined' is highly variable by their situation. I think the strength of regrets will be variable by why the cis person thought they wanted to transition in the first place, the level of support (or not) they had been given, their geographical location, demographic... etc. etc. "Ruined" seems excessively dramatic to me.
Quote from: Sho on November 02, 2010, 10:21:20 PM
I think one of the critical differences is that the dysphoria in these special cases often does not begin until their teens, and many of these people start by being deeply dissatisfied with themselves and only later come to conclude that changing their gender will help them. This is why, I think, that the "yaoi fan" aspect is so important, even though it narrows down the group to whom I'm speaking -- because these are generally people to whom the idea of transition (or of having a brain/body gender discrepancy) had never occurred prior to reading this sort of fiction.
Just been looking through this interesting thread again and this comment here has really made me think. I didn't have dysphoria until my teens and I have always had low self esteem. I was also a yaoi fan when I was younger. Is this is what has made me feel trans? I'm not sure any more. All the sexual relationships I have had as a woman have made me feel uncomfortable and I didn't really get properly interested in men until around my late teens. I was always very uncomfortable with having a female body though - I remember wanting a hysterectomy since I was a little kid and found out I could potentially have kids. But after sex with a guy I had this deep feeling that everything was wrong and I didn't really know why. I was quite happy to read gay porn, but straight stuff made me uncomfortable because I never could identify with the woman involved. Now I am living as a gay man I am far happier in a sexual context but I have to be very sure now that a partner is respecting me as male and I will always hide girl parts. I'm just blabbing all this out because you've made me consider - which is a very good thing by the way. I don't think anything is going to make me want to grow old as a woman though, not now I am aware there is an alternative.
Quote from: Alessandro on November 04, 2010, 08:33:24 AM
Just been looking through this interesting thread again and this comment here has really made me think. I didn't have dysphoria until my teens and I have always had low self esteem. I was also a yaoi fan when I was younger. Is this is what has made me feel trans? I'm not sure any more. All the sexual relationships I have had as a woman have made me feel uncomfortable and I didn't really get properly interested in men until around my late teens. I was always very uncomfortable with having a female body though - I remember wanting a hysterectomy since I was a little kid and found out I could potentially have kids. But after sex with a guy I had this deep feeling that everything was wrong and I didn't really know why. I was quite happy to read gay porn, but straight stuff made me uncomfortable because I never could identify with the woman involved. Now I am living as a gay man I am far happier in a sexual context but I have to be very sure now that a partner is respecting me as male and I will always hide girl parts. I'm just blabbing all this out because you've made me consider - which is a very good thing by the way. I don't think anything is going to make me want to grow old as a woman though, not now I am aware there is an alternative.
I've bolded those lines because well, they apply or applied to me too.
When I was 3 and understood female had babymaking internal organs, I wanted them out of me too! I didn't want to have children, nor do I desire to have them now, and the notion of being born to generate someone else was deeply unsettling for me as a child, as if I wasn't good enough as I was and didn't have enough dignity in myself. I too am attracted to men only, and not to girly men (there's not much we have in common lol) but I have always hated "chivalry" and all the myriad ways men can make a female feel like a "girl" and not an equal (that's what I really want). For this reason I could never identify with male/female relationship and the only female I felt akin to in this sense was the crossdresser royal guard Lady Oscar from the old anime "The rose of Versailles" (ahem :embarrassed: ). So I'm hoping to find, in the future, someone who could treat me like an equal and who doesn't mind being a "switch" with a woman :embarrassed: . I also was enormously distressed by the image of the woman as a slut an I can understand why some girls like to fantasize with yaoi (though I never liked them), because there's no negative connotation if a boy is being "slutty" or flirty, nor is he a filthy slut if he shows his body provocatively...and so on.
Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 04, 2010, 01:17:16 PM
I also was enormously distressed by the image of the woman as a slut an I can understand why some girls like to fantasize with yaoi (though I never liked them), because there's no negative connotation if a boy is being "slutty" or flirty, nor is he a filthy slut if he shows his body provocatively...and so on.
Honestly, with the people I hang around, there
are words like that: manwhore, manslut, player... And for guys, these names can be just as bad as the female versions. If a guy show off his body provocatively, he'll either be called a douche for showing off or a whore. I think it really depends on where you live, but that's how it is where I live. The guys get it just as bad as the girls here.
Equality's gotten a bit further along in Iceland than in the states I think.
I can't say with certainty of course, as I don't live there, but from where I'm sitting... our girls got it a bit better.
I was raised by awesome folks too.
I could be myself. I could do whatever I so chose.
I was a little pressured to go to Uni and get a proper degree. I was offered "law" and "medicine" and so on.
I was encouraged in my art pursuits and musical desires.
I was raised with all doors open to me.
I had boyfriends. I had girlfriends. I got married and had a daughter.
I had respect and stuff...
and it was never "right".
A lot of it felt like compensating.
I was never into "yaoi", heck, I'm not really big on gay porn at all.
*shrug*
I'm a bloke, that's all.
Quote from: Kvall on November 03, 2010, 11:17:30 PM
Why are we delayed or denied our medically necessary care because a tiny handful of cis people could get hurt?
Another viewpoint that assumes "we" is a whole group of people who are the same. I never once honestly felt I needed medical care. There's a wide variety when it comes to people who get the trans label (for me I never identified as trans - that was a label the psychologists put on me). Yet still, here I am, a guy.
I don't believe that everyone that's in that particular fandom needs medical care either (the percentage might be very, very small). After reading through it more and the responses of the author it seems other factors besides transsexualism are involved (role play, poor self esteem/body dysphoria from other causes, etc.)
I get that there are people, such as yourself, that feel medical intervention and care was necessary just to live, but that definitely doesn't apply to everyone.
Okay, my two cents on the whole yaoi-bishounen issue which may or may not be necessary or appreciated. My mouth filter is spastic as usual.
I like yaoi and the whole aesthetic surrounding it. I also have a very real case of gender dysphoria, body-part mismatch and all that jazz. I'm not transitioning because I'm into yaoi--on the contrary, I'm into yaoi because I'm transitioning, among other reasons. I don't think it's so horribly unrealistic or implausible, and not even close to insulting/derogatory or objectifying of gay or bisexual men. In fact, I find a lot of it rather personally liberating. The messages I get out of it are not only "it's okay to be attracted to other guys," but also "it's okay to have a non-standard masculinity" and "you don't have to sacrifice your aesthetics to fit an identity tag."
I had definite inklings all my life that I wasn't cut out for typical femaleness, socially or physically. For this reason, I'd always been drawn to stories and portrayals of gender-atypical characters, like the stage version of Peter Pan (with Mary Martin in the title role) and a character named Tomoe in the Usagi Yojimbo comics, who is a warrior-errant in a universe where women aren't allowed to pursue martial professions. I'd always preferred to have an androgynous appearance, some of my first infatuations were towards androgynous people, and by the time I stumbled across some drawing of two male videogame characters kissing I'd already had strong inklings that my body issues couldn't be reconciled by clothing, appearance or weight changes.
The relation between said media and my own gender dysphoria was rather complicated. On one hand, it helped me give a name and definition to something which had previously been impossible for me to put into words. On the other hand, it delayed my coming-out for a considerable time; I feared that I wouldn't be taken seriously, or that I would be shot down as delusional or brainwashed, which at one point I was. (EDIT: Shot down, I mean. I was never delusional or brainwashed.)
But here I am, transitioning AND into yaoi. The only thing I regret is that I bowed to prejudice for as long as I did, instead of being myself.
I read some posts on the blog, and I found it troublesome. Is this somehow supposed to be helpful, or is it Dirt in shinier wrapping paper?
Radar, thank you for your input. The last thing I want to do is to make FtMs question their gender or orientation -- like I said, transgendered folks receive way too much flak in society today and I would hate to add to any of that. I'm trying to draw a dividing line between those who are legit FtM (and will feel happier and "more themselves" in transition) and those who are struggling with other identity issues and misreading themselves (who will almost certainly become unhappier during the course of transition). Also a lot of the people I'm directing the blog at are extremely young anyway, so can't be "delaying" anything as they're still in their teens and not legally allowed to transition.
That's why I suggest things like "reading gay romance gives them the idea they should be a man" and "dysphoria did not set in until their teens" as a way of differentiating -- though of course as Alessandro pointed out, you can meet these qualifiers and still be trans. He brings up a good point though -- if you're far happier during/after transition, I think this is a good sign you're probably meant to be trans ;D
As Bluetraveler observed too, I think the major draw of yaoi (over and above normal romances) is A: the supposed "equality" that comes from a same-sex relationship, and B: the lack of a female character to compare yourself to. Often the female characters in romantic stories reinforce a lot of outdated stereotypes about women and leave many readers thinking or "Are women really like that? I'm nothing like her." And I really don't hate yaoi -- I'm majorly fond of seeing egalitarian relationships between two androgynous people and wish that sort of thing would get more exposure in the media.
The sort of phenomenon I'm talking about in the blog is rather closely tied to yaoi though, mostly because it tends to foster an appreciation for androgyny (like Xren is describing.) That makes 100% sense to me and in fact I find it a good thing -- teens are romanticizing equal and/or same-sex relationships (yes!), learning they can dress, act and live in ways unconstrained by gender roles (yes!), and can establish their own androgynous beauty standards and reject society's (yes!) These are wonderful things. My primary point of confusion, though, is that some of these teens seem to think that only men can be androgynous. I really get that vibe from most modern media, anime/manga not excluded, and it puzzles me terribly. In other words...the point of the blog is to let girls know that they can do all these things and not feel somehow obligated to transition in the process.
And Xren, I would appreciate it if you don't mind pointing out the offensive parts -- I mainly posted this trying to get input from FtMs so it would be helpful.
Quote from: Xren on November 04, 2010, 07:22:39 PM
I read some posts on the blog, and I found it troublesome. Is this somehow supposed to be helpful, or is it Dirt in shinier wrapping paper?
I think it may be one of the readers/followers of dirt's blog. They were just mentioning this very topic in the comments on her site.
Quote from: Shay on November 04, 2010, 10:15:30 PM
I think it may be one of the readers/followers of dirt's blog. They were just mentioning this very topic in the comments on her site.
I'm the author of the Tomboy Revolution blog and have absolutely no affiliation with Dirt; I find her vitriol disturbing and disagree with nearly everything she says. Just putting that out there. I hadn't even heard of her before having my blog compared to hers :(
Don't worry Sho, you aren't transphobic and we know that. :)
I think that the message of gender equality (whether it refers to androgyny or anything else) is a good one.
However, I think that "Type Six" ("The Male Inside" type, as described on your "I want to be a boy!" page) is pretty much describing an FtM. Even if they discover that they are Trans through yaoi or gay porn, that not an invalidation. I think you might want to reread that section.
Or could you explain the difference between an FtM transgendered person and a "Male Inside"?
I think some of the bickering on this thread has gotten a bit defensive and silly now.
Everyone here is/isn't transitioning for a reason that is/was clear to them. I think with threads like this there is a danger of over analysing things - I know it is important to analyse a huge decision like transitioning but once you have made a decision and are comfortable with that decision it's time to let it go and get on with your life.
I was reminded this morning about why I'm transitioning - because I am not comfortable being seen as female. Once I came to the understanding that I am not female, it became hard to be seen as one by the general public. It doesn't matter especially how I came to that conclusion, or even to some extent, why I did. It matters that now I know who I am and where I want to be. I'm not questioning that anymore.
There is a danger of over-using support forums/the internet in general to seek validation/seek someone who feels like you/is like you. It gets addictive and I truly believe I have been overdoing it. What matters is how you and the people around you feel. I know that right now transitioning is for me. I don't know if I'll be on T for the rest of my life/what surgeries I'll have but now I've got Mr on my I.Ds it's staying for life.
In conclusion my advice to you guys is to just be yourselves and live your lives. If it's a mistake then it's a mistake and you'll learn from it. Bluetraveller seems to have - but her mistake is then going around preaching about it. Other people's lives and decisions are not her responsibility (neither are they Sho's - despite the very informative and mostly impartial information) and they are certainly not Dirt's.
Just...let it go peeps 8)
Alessandro, I agree with a lot of your thoughts and yet I am still one of those troubled by the tomboy blog, and I feel for the others here who are too.
Quote from: Alessandro on November 05, 2010, 07:26:46 AM
I think some of the bickering on this thread has gotten a bit defensive and silly now.
Everyone here is/isn't transitioning for a reason that is/was clear to them.
This, I think, is the main flaw in your post... yes, there is definitely defensiveness going back and forth. But I think it's perfectly reasonable on the part of all the folks who feel that their identities, feelings, and dreams need to be defended. I disagree completely that everyone here has made a rational choice about whether to transition or not; some are still choosing, some keep second-guessing their decision, and there are a lot of us who have a sense of who we are and what we want but haven't developed certainty and strength in our identities.
I'd place myself in the latter group; I know myself and what I should be, but I am still very vulnerable to an attack on that sense of self. Especially in this case, I feel betrayed and undermined in having a specific gendered/cultural ideal that matches my own turned against me. Before I started to look outside American culture, I only knew that I did not want to be a woman or a masculine man, and I could not put my finger on exactly what I did want. I made several suicide attempts because I thought I should not exist on account of a cultural role for my gender not existing. Finding a different set of cultural ideals in anime and the yaoi aesthetic helped me believe in my own identity as a plausible self-concept. The perspective that these ideals may have perverted my identity is incredibly painful, because they are really my main external framework for acceptance within any culture at all.
Quote from: Alessandro on November 05, 2010, 07:26:46 AM
There is a danger of over-using support forums/the internet in general to seek validation/seek someone who feels like you/is like you. It gets addictive and I truly believe I have been overdoing it. What matters is how you and the people around you feel.
I agree that it's unwise to focus too much on building up one's personal identity through a support forum like this one, when each of us really needs to be secure in zirself. But I also think that a lot of people turn to online groups when they don't quite know how they feel, or are rejected by those close to them and feel terribly lonely. For some of us, it is the only source of validation available in an apparent worldwide conspiracy to invalidate us as people. I know that some are constantly on the verge of (or already in) an emotional crisis, and the risk of denying ourselves that validation becomes greater than the risk of depending on it.
That I think is the essential concept of a "safe space" for a marginalized group: that we will be welcomed as the people we are, and that external threats to our identities (no matter how insignificant the threat might be) will never be allowed into our shelter. It is kind of a magical unicorn dreamland in principle, because the world is the way it is and we all need to learn to live with those threats at some point. But safe spaces still need to exist in order to provide us with the support we need to build ourselves up and face the world as it is.
I think for many in this thread, the sense of a safe space has been broken by a perceived threat, even if it was never intended that way and we all understand that it wasn't. I definitely feel that way myself; since reading the blog referenced in the first post I have been uncomfortable, even though I recognize that there is nothing wrong with it in principle. Sho, I respect the honest and thorough presentation of your views, but it becomes a problem once it is posted in a forum for self-identified FtMs, under the heading "everyone must read." It is absolutely not okay for someone to come into my safe space to demand that I reconsider my identity, when I am here because it is already endangered.
Quote from: Kvall on November 04, 2010, 09:48:58 PM
(blah)
Let me add my support to everything Kvall has posted. Bluetraveler, you are visiting in a safe space for transgender people and calling our identities into question; that's a psychological attack no matter how you intended it. I don't think there is an inherent problem with your perspective, but in this context it is rightly drawing discomfort and resentment. The attitude of "Look, I'm not saying you're wrong about yourself but you should really consider this" is something we face constantly in our personal lives and we have heard it enough that the lack of acceptance has built up to an intolerable level. Bringing this same stance of doubt and rejection disguised as concern into our space is inappropriate.
Thankyou for your input shiinee.
I am not disagreeing with you. I just think that you shouldn't have to/don't really need to defend your identity. You know who you are. Pretty much the point I was making was that it was unfair for others to come here and preach their views. Sho is pretty much an innocent in this - it's Bluetraveller doing much of the preaching just using Sho's blog to do it. You
don't need to reconsider your identity. That's what I was trying to say.
Susan's is a great little community and I'm not denying that. But remember that you don't need validation from other people. You and your gender therapist will work it out between you. It's nice to know that there is a community now and that this community have a voice. Susan's helped me find comfort in being trans. Yet out there on the internet/in real life are always going to be people who question/disagree with us as well. My only qualm is that people can be too swayed by other people's opinions/trying to find a sense of self by searching these agree-ers/disagree-ers out on the internet. I've fallen victim to it recently.
Quote from: shiinee on November 05, 2010, 10:33:15 AM
The attitude of "Look, I'm not saying you're wrong about yourself but you should really consider this" is something we face constantly in our personal lives and we have heard it enough that the lack of acceptance has built up to an intolerable level. Bringing this same stance of doubt and rejection disguised as concern into our space is inappropriate.
I agree 100%. Susan's is not the place for this. We'll make up our own minds.
QuoteQuote from: Izumi on November 01, 2010, 02:26:31 PM
Well, people transition for different reasons, obviously the most common one is being TS, but i have known people to transition for money or status, or some fetish.. however they typically dont find it to their liking later. Heh, my therapist said, "well, if you transition and you really aren't TS, you will be when your done."
Quote from: Bluetraveler on November 01, 2010, 02:31:59 PM
Exactly
+1 [or i suppose 2? :P]
=] i like that.