Hi All,
I went for my orthodontist appointment today wearing a the same blouse that you see in my photo. I like the cooler weather and I was in a rush. Anyways, when I was in the office I could not help but notice that another woman smiled at me. That was not the first time. That happens quite a bit. When walking back to my car, another woman looked at me. Okay, I do not know that as an absolute fact or the why, but I did get that impression. That is not out of the ordinary, but commonplace. Men never seem to notice or comment, at least from my perspective, but other women will smile at me and look at me.
What is the meaning of that? Are they saying that I do not pass? Are they saying something else? Do women ordinarily smile at other women? (I have never noticed that, but I do notice smiles directed at me.) Are they saying: "How cute, there is a 48-year old man dressed as a woman?"
Thoughts?
I do not feel 48. I just feel like me.
By the way, do any of you get the same reaction, or is what I am sensing just me?
Thanks in advance.
Hi sarah!
From my experience, women tend to notice each other and smile and acknowledge each other much more readily than our male counterparts. Men don't generally go around smiling at other guys due to some built-in homophobic fear of being viewed as gay or some other similar nonsense. I get smiled at too, quite a lot. Men also hold doors for me, ask how I'm doing, etc., which is completely new to me as well because as a "guy" I felt completely invisible to both sexes. Now men and women alike are acknowledging my presence with niceties like smiles and "how are you"s. You'll get used to it ;)
Everyone looks at other people. Whenever we find something even a bit odd, we tend to look, if not stare. Here's what often happens, when the stared notices the starer stares, in my opinion :
Man 1 stares at man 2 : Man 1 will find something kind of close to Man 2 that he could "normally" stare at. Heck, what if he thinks I'm gay ?
Man stares at woman : Man will quickly look away. He would not want to look like a pervert. Or man could also just smile at the woman, like "I'm the alpha male, you're the poor female. You interest me." if the man is macho.
Woman stares at man : Woman will act indifferent. She would not want the man to think she's interested. Unless she is. She could also smile at him in a "why are YOU looking at me?" way.
Woman 1 stares at woman 2 : Woman 1 will smile, as if she had been intending to greet woman 2 from the beginning, while still observing woman 2.
Women are just like that, I think. As for the reason why she was looking at you from the beginning, it may be that she clocked you, but looking at your picture, I do not think so (unless you purposely walk and talk manly, haha). It may just be because she was looking at your clothing, or your haircut, or searching for what the orthodontist was going to do for you. Or maybe she just happens to be the kind of person who smiles at people.
In any case, unless you obviously do not pass [which, I assure you, does not appear at all on your picture], you should not worry about it too much.
Women smile at each other, like the men do the head nod thing. It is a way of greeting each other.
I wouldn't read any more in to it than it is a greeting.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 22, 2010, 02:22:09 PM
Women smile at each other, like the men do the head nod thing. It is a way of greeting each other.
I wouldn't read any more in to it than it is a greeting.
Exactly. It's just what women do. We look each other in the eye and give a friendly smile. I think you should pass just fine. :angel:
In the city in which I live, no one acknowledges one another. :laugh: Especially while using public transit... everyone's surly. Seriously, we have a bit of a reputation for being kind of cold to each other. Yet for some reason, we are seen as friendly. ;D Hahaha, the male head-nod; a classic jesture. Nowadays, I do smile and get smiles back from other women, though not with any regularity.
Hi,
Thanks for that. I am still getting used to being female, even though I am one. I was mistaking passing with not. I guess these things are taught by one's mother to the daughter or by other girlfriends that I having been born and raised not as a girl, just do not know.
I know that I am very sensitive to whether I pass or not. Maybe that is because I still need work on my hair and am pre-op, not to mention was born male. It should not bother me, but having male anything directed at me usually ticks me off and rubs me the wrong way. I guess that I will start feeling better, when I no longer have to use a men's locker room at the health club.
Personally, I think that my face looks quite male-ish, but then I know myself all my life and I know my past.
Thanks for the help. I will start smiling at other women now. I wonder what else I should know that I do not or what I am doing wrong.
It is hard to imagine doing anything harder in life than conquering one's own fear and changing gender. I can imagine that changing gender in school, even today, is quite traumatic and joyful.
Cheers,
Sarah
Hi Samantha,
I really like your tag line: "25 years old, but only 12 in puberty". In many ways I really see myself as a teenager and at others my real age. Whereas many people develop and grow, I never got that chance, since I was stuck in limbo. Things that gg go through in puberty, I am going through now, albeit at a slow pace. There are the physical developments too, although I am paused at the moment with hormones, but I do work on my voice, electrology, and getting my hair back.
Great tag line. :-)
You look lovely honey. From your pic I can't see why you would have any trouble passing. I think that top is gorgeous.
As Janet mentioned, it's just how women greet each other... It took awhile for me to get use to also :laugh: But now I just smile back
If anything it means you are passing just fine ;)
In the woman's restrooms women will not only smile but often chit chat with you too.
And I really enjoy it. :)
Jillieann
Do women ordinarily smile at other women?
Yes!
Sarah, it means you're being included in the female inner circle. You're accepted as belonging, it's a testament to how well you present yourself.
Nicky: It is too bad that you are not here in L.A. and tell that to a person in my family, who goes ballistic seeing me in that blouse. I like it.
The problem is that I get mixed feedback. I would say that about half the time people call me by female names and the rest I get sired. Yes, small photos hide stuff. My forehead and hair both say male. I also have hair on my arms, which does not help. If I were to get ma'amed all the time, then I would feel better, but I do hear sir. The lack of support inside the home does not help either.
Virginia Marie (and others): I just got back from dinner, but while driving to eat, I was thinking on this topic. I should be happy, since I now know that a smile is what other women do to greet each other and I have wanted to pass as a woman for my entire life. I should be on top of the world, but that is far from the case. I am alone in many ways. I have the pain and anger of wanting something. That is hard to just let go, especially when I see the opposite too. I keep being reminded that I have a male body, okay not fully but still a lot.
Jilieanne: I only was in the women's restroom at work a few times and that was last year. That was my first and only time so far. I enjoyed it. It was calming, believe it or not. I tried to pick times, when others were not in, but that is hard to predict. One woman started to talk to me, which was nice. I did not get any negative remarks then. I then was asked to work from home and got laid off, so that took care of that.
The other time that I went to the women's restroom, at a local Macy's, was about a couple of months ago. I went with a family member, who forced me to go in a men's polo shirt. I hesitate to say transphobic, although that is the word that comes to mind, but maybe embarassed and religiously conflicted would be better words. Still, I had to go ot the bathroom, so I sent her on her way to do something else. I asked where the bathroom was. I was in a men's polo shirt and had listened to "him" and my male name for however long before hand, so I was assuming that even God would speak to me as Arnold Schwarzenneger, ultra male. I asked one employee and I was directed to the women's restroom on the 2nd floor. I figured that maybe the men's restroom was there, but I thought that it was on the 3rd floor. I asked three other people on both floors and I got told the same thing. I was then on the 3rd floor and I seriouisly had to go. A 25 year old woman stopped me and asked if she could help. I asked where the restroom was and she said that I have to go down to the second floor and look underneath water sign. After the fifth time, I went like a bullet to the second floor. Thankfully the restroom was empty, but I guessed that I passed. That incident floored me, although since then I hear male too.
I should probably add another topic about how to find a trans group here in my area. It seems that L.A. is not the trans anything, at least in my area. An online group is nice, but I still hear only myself and see myself.
JohnR: I guess it does, slowly but surely. I have to see myself that way and that is hard. I keep seeing (and feeling) the male parts of me (between my legs), my male voice, and more important than body parts, my past, and it is hard to move beyond that. Is it easier for F2M or is it the same there? Chaz seems to be doing fine, but that I presume is mostly show and tell, not inside the home and real feelings. The home situation is not helping matters any either. Nobody would believe that story. I do not believe it.
Without any feedback when interactions / inclusiveness happens, it is hard to know that happens, especially now at the beginning. I keep hearing both positive and negative comments (especially at home) and not growing up as a girl and knowing those traits makes it hard to know that I am, if that makes sense. I was a girl in my heart but being a girl in real life and society is different than being a girl in my heart, at least for me. It does not help that I get to use men's locker rooms at the health club and other similar problems.
I keep pushing as best that I can.
Thanks all. :-)
Here is an example of why I am always afraid to use any restroom in public, especially the women's restroom.
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7804014 (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7804014)
Thsi woman, Majanae Chambers, looks to me like a normal female. Her face is even quite feminine looking. I can see why she gets harassed in a men's restroom. That did not stop the police arresting her for using the women's restroom in a public library in Houston, Texas. Granted that Texas is a Republican stronghold and home to the GOP, but even Republicans have transgendered individuals. Besides, the mayor of Houston according to the article passed a non-discrimination policy including transgendered individuals and still she got arrested.
That being said, could not the same thing happen here in Los Angeles or anywhere else?
He, he, he although out the report. Get it right you jackwagon. It is she.
And who really gives a sh!t what the Houston Area Pastor Council wants, they can kiss my grits.
LOL. It is a greet and as for the bathroom? I use the ladies room.
The last time I was dressed as a guy, I went to the mens room.
The guy at the urinal QUICKLY stopped his flow, tucked himself away and said
"Umm Maam, I think your in the wrtong bathroom".
Hehehehe.
Last time I ever went in there.
Cant use the urinals any more though :)
could not the same thing happen here in Los Angeles or anywhere else
Other places perhaps, but not LA. It happens in Houston because people care about silly things. In LA people only care about money, the Dodgers, and themselves - which is an ideal situation. Except for the Dodger thing of course.
You're learning that "passing" is not binary. It's not just that you pass with some people and not with others, but for each person you pass to a certain level. We assign a gender at an unconscious level the moment we see a person, and the pronouns we use typically match that assignment. But there are many other levels of passing, so there are probably people who unconsciously gender you male but can't do so consciously, or vice versa.
The smile women share indicates, to me, some combination of politeness, warmth, and mutual recognition of safety and solidarity against the dangers of a male world; it also often goes with a sizing up, a reckoning of the social hierarchy, a mutual determination of who is prettier. (Oh, you bet that's part of it. If you're not doing that now, you will soon enough. Female kinship is just as powerful, supportive, and brutal as male camaraderie; the main difference for me is that I get along much better in the female version.) With so much meaning passed in that smile (just as with the male head-nod that Janet mentioned), is it any wonder that you might be getting mixed signals?
Yes, it's absolutely a kind of passing, but there are so many kinds. Pronouns are one of the last things to work out. These days I find I'm welcome in women's locker rooms, I'm invited to girls' nights out, guys I've just met give me the "don't worry, I'm not hitting on you; just being a nice guy, nothing creepy" hug after just one or two meetings -- or actually they hit on me (though I much prefer when lesbians and bi girls do that :laugh:) -- and still it's not quite passing, not the way I want to pass, because the same people will every now and then drop a male pronoun, often without even realizing they've done it. Someone I've known for a few months did that to me a few weeks ago, very clearly said "his" where she ought to have said "her"; I mentioned it and she didn't believe that she had even said that.
Welcome to the land of liminal gender. On behalf of all the forum members here at Susan's, I would like to wish you a pleasant stay, and a speedy and safe journey to wherever your final destination might be.
Hi,
juliemac: I would love that to happen to me. Did that make your day, when the guy told you "ma'am, you are in the wrong restroom"? That would have definitely put a smile on my face all day long.
tekla: My family is crazy for the Dodgers and I could care less about baseball. In earlier years, even through my twenties, I would get asked to go to see the Dodgers, and I would refuse. I went to a couple of games, and I could care less. I did not like the hotdogs either. I rather go for a nice Italian or Mexican dinner. They stopped asking me eventually.
Sadly, many women love sports, especially the Lakers. I rather go to a woman's club and just chat. I got dragged to a Laker's game once. I rather go to the dentist and get my teeth cleaned. :-)
I agree about people caring about themselves here in Los Angeles. People are ULTRA self-centered. Most people do not even know their neighbors. Los Angeles is the opposite of Whisteria Lane (think Desperate Housewives).
Smallville will end this year. :-( :-( :-( Chloe is not on this season either, only for a few episodes. :-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(:-(
Alyssas: Thanks for the warm and friendly comment. :-) I did not know about the various levels, but that makes sense and goes along with how I am perceiving the situation. I pass at some level, but not on the biologically born female level, not even close. People feel comfortable with me, and do not think of me as male, per se, so that is a start.
Quote
speedy and safe journey to wherever your final destination might be.
If we get to the point, where I can take an adult stem cell of mine, grow a uterus along with all the other plumbing, get it implanted, and literally have to worry about getting pregnant, then we are definitely making progress towards the final destination. I would not mind a female set of vocal chords too. How is that for a destination?
Quote
it also often goes with a sizing up, a reckoning of the social hierarchy, a mutual determination of who is prettier. (Oh, you bet that's part of it. If you're not doing that now, you will soon enough. Female kinship is just as powerful, supportive, and brutal as male camaraderie; the main difference for me is that I get along much better in the female version.)
I am doing that now, just I was not realizing that until recently. I mistook attraction (which I am attracted to females, hence bi), but more over I look to see what they have that I do not (prettier breasts, hips, etc.) I understand that part. I have a long way to go, before I can win any beauty pageant competing with genetic women in a competition, where nobody would know that I am trans.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on November 22, 2010, 10:04:58 PM
because the same people will every now and then drop a male pronoun, often without even realizing they've done it. Someone I've known for a few months did that to me a few weeks ago, very clearly said "his" where she ought to have said "her"; I mentioned it and she didn't believe that she had even said that.
That's interesting. So you think dropping the wrong pronoun doesn't necessarily mean they're consciously identifying us as the wrong gender? I've had instances where everything seemed fine and I didn't feel like they were reacting to me as female until the pronoun. It catches me off guard (well it always does nowadays). But it'd be nice to think every 'she' isn't a total failure on my part.
Quote from: Alyssa M. on November 22, 2010, 10:04:58 PM
Welcome to the land of liminal gender. On behalf of all the forum members here at Susan's, I would like to wish you a pleasant stay, and a speedy and safe journey to wherever your final destination might be.
"Liminal" is a fantastic word that should probably be used more often in conversations about transgender topics. I just wanted to say that. :)
Cool!
Thanks for mentioning the word. I glossed over it and did not know what it meant. Yes, I was lazy.
Word Origin & History (courtesy dictionary.reference.com)
liminal
1884, a rare word, from L. limen "threshold." Related: Liminality
"liminal gender" == "threshold gender".
:-) true.
Nero,
I think it's often with people who read me as trans, but can't actually picture me as a guy. I know I've met people who are like that for me, so that's what I assume it is. I don't know how it would go for people who actually didn't read me as trans at all, because I don't really believe they exist, or it doesn't usually take long for people to put two and two together. ... :-\ ... yeah, starting to research FFS. ...
Jen,
JEN!!!!! JENNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D
Jen is a fantastic person that should be present in more conversations about assorted topics. I just wanted to say that. :)
[Which is not to say that Nero's not fantastic -- it's just that of late I've seen him around a bit more than Jen. I suppose I've been scarce myself.]
Sarah,
You'll be fine, and you can do a lot with the pipes you've got. You can play most violin music on a viola -- it might not be ideal, but it works, it doesn't take too much effort (with some practice), and it sounds pretty darned good. (Voice geek point -- they're vocal "folds," not "cords," and certainly not "chords" -- unless you're doing Tuvan throat singing! -- and a huge part of what matters is the larynx, which determines the overtone sequence, and which I really wouldn't let a surgeon mess with.)
Quote from: Alyssa M. on November 23, 2010, 12:17:15 AM
Jen is a fantastic person that should be present in more conversations about assorted topics. I just wanted to say that. :)
Lol thanks Alyssa. I vote for more of you, not me! <3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liminal)
Liminality, in the sense that I think the word applies to a lot of topics we discuss here, essentially describes the fuzzy boundary that exists between two defined regions.
Quoting Jen:
Liminality, in the sense that I think the word applies to a lot of topics we discuss here, essentially describes the fuzzy boundary that exists between two defined regions.
I'm pretty sure that I shave that area. :laugh:
Sorry.
Cindy
Quote from: sarahla on November 22, 2010, 07:07:08 PM
JohnR: I guess it does, slowly but surely. I have to see myself that way and that is hard. I keep seeing (and feeling) the male parts of me (between my legs), my male voice, and more important than body parts, my past, and it is hard to move beyond that. Is it easier for F2M or is it the same there?
If a guy smiles and starts talking, I know he has read me as female. When women do it, it all depends on the situation at the time and what they do. There are certain looks women reserve only for other women.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 22, 2010, 02:22:09 PM
Women smile at each other, like the men do the head nod thing. It is a way of greeting each other.
I wouldn't read any more in to it than it is a greeting.
Men don't seem to do this up in the Northeast. I moved here from the South 11 years ago and that is one of the first things I had to get used to.
But to the OP..I get a lot of warm smiles from women often enough. I think it is just a woman smiling at another woman.
Am I weird ? I perfectly understood "liminal" at first glance, but still do not understand "threshold", haha.
I have never nodded at another guy, nor did I realize that men do that. On the female side, I also never knew that women smiled and looked at each other. Where exactly have I been? Maybe women smile at each other here in California, but men do not. Maybe the nodding thing is a midwestern thing or something like that, but not a California thing. Then again, I am not a guy, nor do I want to be one, nor do I join in any of the male bonding things, so why would I notice, and I have never until recently been included in the women's club, so why would I notice that. Makes sense to me.
Quote from: Nero on November 22, 2010, 10:34:29 PM
That's interesting. So you think dropping the wrong pronoun doesn't necessarily mean they're consciously identifying us as the wrong gender? I've had instances where everything seemed fine and I didn't feel like they were reacting to me as female until the pronoun. It catches me off guard (well it always does nowadays). But it'd be nice to think every 'she' isn't a total failure on my part.
I have, on occasion, misgendered cis people. Including my mom. Sometimes, it's just a slip of the tongue.
Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 22, 2010, 07:44:01 PM
He, he, he although out the report. Get it right you jackwagon. It is she.
And who really gives a sh!t what the Houston Area Pastor Council wants, they can kiss my grits.
I don't know why, but "jackwagon" has me cracking up. I'm going to use that one in the future. :D
To be somewhat on topic...
I work in the medical field and interact mostly with females (nurses, receptionists) all day and constantly get/give the look/smile thing. It's amazing how much you information you can gather about a persons personality and mood in those few seconds.
~Sara
I get a kick out of the term "Jackwagon" also and I'm not sure why either... I think it just sounds entertaining for some reason :laugh:
I get a total kick out of 'Jackwagon", but of course I love R. Lee Ermey. I remember his show Mail Call and many of his movies. And Just a FYI, he is the real deal.
QuoteErmey spent eleven years in the Marine Corps, Two of which were spent as being a Drill Instructor at Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego, India Company 3rd Recruit Training Battalion 1965-67, Arrived in Vietnam in 1968 spending 14 months attached to Marine Wing Support Group 17 and 2 tours in Okinawa. He rose to the rank of Staff Sergeant and was medically retired for injuries received. On May 17, 2002 he received an honorary promotion to Gunnery Sergeant (E-7) by Commandant James L. Jones, becoming the first retiree in the history of the Marines to be promoted.
GEICO - Sarge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaFy0x_Uixo#)
Sorry for the derail.
Miss_Anthropic (Sara): That was nice to hear. It seems that I need a couch to pick up all these type of things that I never picked up previously in life.
Thanks!
Thanks for the info Janet! I too love R. Lee Ermey, I didn't know that was one of his lines but now that you mention it, totally makes sense. Now I want to rent "Saving Silverman" to see him in action.
Quote from: sarahla on November 24, 2010, 12:53:43 AM
Miss_Anthropic (Sara): That was nice to hear. It seems that I need a couch to pick up all these type of things that I never picked up previously in life.
Thanks!
Yeah, it's a bit confusing at first, that's for sure! I remember thinking along the same lines as you to begin with, but it slowly began to make sense. One thing I never really thought about was the times it's happened when I've been in male mode, I guess I "vibe" female at those times more than I had realized.
Don't fret, we're all going thru
this puberty for the first time; lots of written and unwritten rules to learn, just takes a little time.
~Sara
BTW- I love that top!
Quote from: sarahla on November 22, 2010, 07:37:35 PM
Here is an example of why I am always afraid to use any restroom in public, especially the women's restroom.
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7804014 (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7804014)
Thsi woman, Majanae Chambers, looks to me like a normal female. Her face is even quite feminine looking. I can see why she gets harassed in a men's restroom. That did not stop the police arresting her for using the women's restroom in a public library in Houston, Texas. Granted that Texas is a Republican stronghold and home to the GOP, but even Republicans have transgendered individuals. Besides, the mayor of Houston according to the article passed a non-discrimination policy including transgendered individuals and still she got arrested.
That being said, could not the same thing happen here in Los Angeles or anywhere else?
ABC still doesn't get it. They start out using the appropriate gender references then go to calling her a man. Please leave comments about that!
Quote from: Dana Lane on November 23, 2010, 06:01:37 AM
Men don't seem to do this up in the Northeast. I moved here from the South 11 years ago and that is one of the first things I had to get used to.
But to the OP..I get a lot of warm smiles from women often enough. I think it is just a woman smiling at another woman.
I grew up in the Northeast. People are generally more stand-offish in the Northeast, but I definitely recall the head-nod.
Quote
Miss Anthrop: BTW- I love that top!
Thanks. I like it too, just certain family members, when they see me wearing female anything go ballistic, and I am so not exaggerating. If anything, I am being mellow and calm. I like the top too.
I can hardly wait till I get hair transplant, some more money, my legs rid of hair, and start to wear skirts and dresses, and I do not mean at home.
I just do not see why I have to fight and claw my way to being a female, while others are naturally the way that they want. I just want to be myself. Every day is like a fight in one way or the other.
One day, I would like to see the opposite.
Small photos hide a lot of sin. My arms and hands still have a lot of hair, just for whatever reason it does not show on the photo. That is interesting, considering my face is free of hair (it still has peach fuzz, though) and my arms have hair, but on the photo it looks the same.
Being female used to be natural. I remember once in junior high school (middle school now) I was sitting. A boy came up to me and said that I am sitting like a girl that boys do not sit like that. I can honestly tell all of you that up until that time, I never knew that boys and girls, at least in school, sit differently. I just sat the way that it was natural for me to sit. I paid zero attention on the topic, none. I was happy to hear the remark. I forget what I said in response.
Sadly, years of screwing myself by not being myself but rather living a lie takes its toll and not just in picking up small things like who should smile. I just to be a much happier person with dreams of being a cheerleader (female of course), dancing, and pretty much being a normal happy girl. Years if punishment, whether self inflicted or by society does not matter, takes its toll.
I see women around me being bubbly and happy and I am totally not like that. I am not saying that all women are bubbly nor had I been born properly that I would have been, but the pain would not be there.
Sarah,
I had to learn how to sit, walk and talk like a guy. My dad keep on me, correction me, until I did it right.
In fact he even had to show me what kinds of toys, games and sports boys played.
I think because of it I still don't like most of them.
Dad made sure I had no dolls for me only toy guns, solders and the like would do.
Mom broke down and got me a plush monkey for Christmas but
:'( my sister and I fought over it so much that we ripped the ears off of it.
Sorry I'm off topic.
Jillieann
Quote from: Jillieann on November 29, 2010, 05:05:24 PM
Sarah,
I had to learn how to sit, walk and talk like a guy. My dad keep on me, correction me, until I did it right.
In fact he even had to show me what kinds of toys, games and sports boys played.
I think because of it I still don't like most of them.
Dad made sure I had no dolls for me only toy guns, solders and the like would do.
Mom broke down and got me a plush monkey for Christmas but
:'( my sister and I fought over it so much that we ripped the ears off of it.
Sorry I'm off topic.
Jillieann
I didn't need to have anyone do that to me - I did it to myself, from a very young age. "Don't play with girls' toys. If you gotta play with them, play with them in a really boyish fashion, and don't get discovered. Sit like this, walk like this, talk like this." Some of my earliest memories are having to restrain myself, because otherwise I wouldn't be accepted. Now, I know this wasn't really true, but I believed it. At no point in my life have I ever allowed myself to act freely. And nobody else moderated me.
My point being, a strict, narrow-minded parent is not necessary to experience that. It's quite possible to do it to yourself.
Oh I was a people please.
It wasn't all my parents fault.
Quote from: Jillieann on November 29, 2010, 05:54:11 PM
Oh I was a people please.
It wasn't all my parents fault.
Yeah, so was I. Still am. Can't quite figure out which came first - the need to follow rules, or the fear of not fitting in.
My parents openly stated their desire to raise me and my sisters gender-neutrally. Of course, the best intentions in the world don't change the fact that a parent will treat their child differently depending on the child's sex. And there are more people in a child's life than just the parents.
Jillieann,
I can smile for what you wrote. Believe it or not, I do remember those days. My mom was okay in this department. Her thing was that I should do things right-handed (I am left-handed), so I got hit every time that I wrote with my left hand and did other stuff with it. With that and my gender, I developed a stutter. There was once, when I was about 8 years old that they sent me to a military school, Paige Military Academy, complete with guys and uber amounts of testosterone. I still remember how they tried to get us to hold guns and the lunch, Chef Boy Ardee. Oh, I hated that place. I put a stop to that quickly.
Thankfully, I was not bothered in the toys department. I hated boy games passionately. My sister and I fought over who got to name the dolls and play with them. I usually won. There was one doll that she liked a lot, so she did not even tell me about it, as she wanted it for herself and to name it.
Why I wanted to please people and be embarrassed about everything is beyond me. I see kids today and they are so different than I (Jossee, the 8 or 9 year old trans girl (open) and of course Kim Petras). I hate to say I could have been her, but I grew up in a different time and place.
I do not have many memories of my toddler years, but there is learning how to pee. I kept wanting to pee like a girl. My father had to show me how to stand up and pee. I thought that it was weird and sick then, and I still think that peeing like a guy is weird and sick. Some things do not change.
I had to learn everything as a guy. Now, I have to learn how to be a girl. Life is unfair in this way. I should have just been forceful and honest and just say that I was a girl and to tell them to go screw themselves if they think that they are going to force me to write with my right hand and to do things as a boy. I am still angry on this little topic.
I can only smile on your plush monkey, as you have similar experiences.
Jillieann, I do not know what to tell you about your father forcing you to be a boy and the pain that you endured for so very long, not to mention the lack of a relationship at an early age with your father. Do you and your father have an improved relationship now? Does he accept you as a female? (Mine does not and we do not have much of a relationship.) If it means anything, I understand. Thankfully, you are old enough now and can work on undoing the damage, same as me, just sadly undoing the damage does not happen overnight.
Sarah,
I love my dad and have a better relationship with my dad now.
I have forgave him and know he was only doing what he though was best for me.
But I don't think he will ever accept me as a female.
Jillieann
If this is the only behaviors you notice from people, then you must be passing, and there is nothing to be worried about.
I would assume that if you did not pass people will be more or less making it much more obvious than simply smiling. People in general view transsexuals as freaks without hearts, so to them they will be much more blunt.
You would hear, "Is that a woman or a male?", "Sir, uh ma'am, sir" much more often.
To me you pass as a female, and look decent for the age group. There's nothing shocking nor is there anything that is eye grabbing such as a large jaw or heavy features. To me you blend quite nicely... and I probably will not view you as a transsexual on a street but an ordinary female.
Quote from: Megan on November 30, 2010, 06:49:16 AM
If this is the only behaviors you notice from people, then you must be passing, and there is nothing to be worried about.
I would assume that if you did not pass people will be more or less making it much more obvious than simply smiling. People in general view transsexuals as freaks without hearts, so to them they will be much more blunt.
You would hear, "Is that a woman or a male?", "Sir, uh ma'am, sir" much more often.
To me you pass as a female, and look decent for the age group. There's nothing shocking nor is there anything that is eye grabbing such as a large jaw or heavy features. To me you blend quite nicely... and I probably will not view you as a transsexual on a street but an ordinary female.
Oh yes, you're right. I once met up with another MtF who lived nearby, this was before I started with anything transition related and was just looking for resources locally. We met at a local coffee shop on a Sunday morning, not very crowded, just a few random younger people reading the paper ect. She was in her 50's, face was passible, hair was thin'ish, voice was not passible at all. We got a few
very harsh comments thrown our way, stuff that scared me, but they just rolled off her like it was nothing.
She was the first trans person other than myself I'd ever met. At the time and even now I don't think I could ever be as strong as her and ignore the comments she got that day. I've gotten some comments over the years, but nothing as bad as what she took in that half an hour that we sat there and talked that morning. I wonder how she's doing, I lost her number and we haven't spoke in several years.
Anyway, you might not know if you pass, but believe me, if you don't pass....you'll know.
~Sara
I hate to rain on the parade but those smiles usually mean that we are being read but approvingly. The more convincing my appearance became the less I would get those looks and smiles. the god thing to hang your hat on is that it is a smile of acceptance. You are being accepted as female even if recognized as trans. No woman would smile like that at a strange man.
BTW I am not sure because I am legally female but I recall Cal law states that people have the right to use whichever bathroom fits their gender ID here is more info:
http://transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/PIP%20Resource%20Guide.pdf (http://transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/PIP%20Resource%20Guide.pdf)
Quote
Anyway, you might not know if you pass, but believe me, if you don't pass....you'll know.
~Sara
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Cool, thanks Sara.
I did not know about the Transgender Law Center and the Peeing in Peace document.
I had absolutely no clue that California offered so many protections as well as Los Angeles, although not as much as San Francisco. I did not realize that CA had protections for bathroom use, although in reality passing would be nice and having a gender marker consistent with your outward and inner gender would be nice too. I still have an 'M' on my driver's license.
I did not know that changing one's gender on one's driver's license in CA is as easy as it is. I already legally changed my name a while ago, but did not realize that I could also change my gender.
CA Driver's License Gender Change:
CA DMV Form DL329 - Medical Certification and Authorization (Gender Change)
A psychologist or a doctor needs to sign the form. My doctor would easily do that, as I have already had my doctor sign a similar form a couple of years back. Sadly, I have to wait a bit on that, as the timing is not right (nothing to do with the law or CA, just me).
Thanks Sara. You were a big help.
Oh, upon reading what you wrote, you are right. In my own experience, no woman would smile at a strange man unless she wants to pick him up. That just is not done from what I have observed. That means that you are right. I am not quite passing, but they are okay with it and acknowledging it. That is cool.
I look forward to the day, when a guy does not stare back at me in the mirror or to anyone else. It is happening, just slowly.
In my own experience, no woman would smile at a strange man unless she wants to pick him up.
I live in a metro area of a couple of million people, and where I work gets a thousand to two thousand people a night showing up. I have women smile at me all the time. I don't think that everyone of them wants to pick me up.
First of all, if you are smiling, most people will smile back at you.
I would say that if another woman is smiling at you, then she is accepting you as just another female.
If a woman "reads" you there is a different vibe.
As to worrying about passing: Passing takes time, work, and luck.
HRT, surgeries, and becoming comfortable in our skins are integral to passing IMO. While one is going through the process of getting to the point of passing a good source of solace is the Serenity Prayer.
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
Quote from: tekla on December 03, 2010, 10:21:06 AM
First of all, if you are smiling, most people will smile back at you.
This is so true. Just try it! put on a smile and walk around at work, shops wherever and people will smile right back at you, and even stop and chat. Then walk around the same place not smiling and see the difference.
Since I'm a whole lot happier in my self I tend to smile a lot. And I keep getting lots of nice conversations with the shop people and checkout girls, and it's not because I'm being read. Just people like to communicate with happy people.
IMO
Cindy
people like to communicate with happy people
Because unhappy people are bummers, depressing, often messy and no fun at parties. So be happy. If you're not. Fake it.
Being happy is a journey. Yup. Let me just say that Kim Petres and I live in two different universes. She has a loving caring family that totally accepts and supports her (North Pole) and I am on the South Pole. I would not mind passing better and had more hair and stopped losing what I have.
I also need to learn how to be a woman and accept myself as such. That sounds funny to say, but I spent many years being one way and feeling the other that it is hard to instantaneously put myself in the other box and feel like I belong.
Others seem to be okay, though. I talked to one of the people in charge of the women's group at the temple where I go and they saw me as nothing but a female. I was surprised. Sadly, I can learn from them. The problem that it is hard, when there are things perpetually reminding me that I am in the other box (penis, lack of hair, male forehead, voice, and non physical stuff, even lack of memories. I can visualize myself wearing a skirt one day soon, so that is making progress. I could not even comprehend really doing that a couple of years ago.
Sarah,
I think the most important thing is to be you and not to pretend or try to fit a role that you perceive is need to be a women.
You, I and allot of other people here at Susan's have for years try to do that in a role that is oppose of are real gender.
I am so tired of trying to be something I'm not.
And why have I been trying?
To make other accept me and like me and so that in the end I would be happy too.
Has it worked for me in the male role?
NO!
Not at all.
It has gotten me depressed to say the least.
So why do I think I can do the same thing in the oppose gender role.
Why do we think we need to do all required things to be a "women".
Who or whom is making up most of these requirements?
Is it you or me? Maybe. I think I am guilty of that.
Oh please don't get me wrong.
I'm not talking about HRT and SRS and other thinks that can enhances who we are.
You have said that you already pass most of the time.
Why not be who you are and enjoy what you like.
I am and always have been a women even if I pretended to be a guy for way too many years.
Yes there are somethings we most do for our own protection
and so that we can get along with other.
But I think if we just stop .... pushing - pretending - trying to reach unattainable ever changing requirements to be the gender we already are we can be happier than we ever have been. And maybe we will be accepted by other.
Sorry for spouting off. :-\
But I am just upset with myself.
I just need to stop trying so hard and keep failing .. to walk more like a women .. to talk more like a women ... to wear the right clothing in the right way ... to be an expert in all thinks female ...
I need to start living as me as I real am.
A women.
Jillieann
Hi Jillianne,
I agree with what you said that each of us should be who we are, nothing more and nothing less, whatever that is. Life is a spectrum, or as Gene Roddenberry said so gracefully, IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations).
Sadly, life does not always throw us neat little problems that are easily solved and a nice straight path to follow.
In a nutshell, first is finances. 2010 was not kind financially. That put the brakes on everything. I do not want to go into details, but my partner is embarassed about me, possibly transphobic, "uber straight" to coin a phrase, and religiously brainwashed by the religiously extreme. There are other topics too among which is wanting kiddies. The list goes on and on.
I am myself, or try to be these days. I am comfortable with myself, so no worries there.
Other women smiled at me all the time even before I started my transition. I don't think it has anything to do with me in particular. Men smiling at me has always been rare, but it happens occasionally. If somebody looks directly at me, I usually smile at them.
I take public transit every day. The way the trains are designed in this city makes it very difficult to avoid looking at somebody else at all times. It's almost comical because people (of both genders) are always trying to avoid sending messages by looking at each other for too long. For example, people try looking out the window, but that doesn't work either, because often two people will both look in the window and then see each other's reflection. I've never seen two people of either gender just maintain eye contact throughout. However, brief smiles are common. Also interesting is that it's incredibly rare for anybody to talk to each other. My experiences with public transit make it seem like some social experiment to try to avoid communicating through any means.