Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hi everyone,
i'm a 51 year old married man who has met a transsexual woman online, she is also married, but things are starting to get serious between us. We've met a few times now and managed to have one night together when we made love like i have never known before.
It's difficult and we dont want to hurt our partners but our feelings are getting stronger for each other.
A few months back I knew nothing of transgender issues and if i was asked i would have recoiled in horror at the suggestion of entering a relationship with a mtf woman. Not now. I am totally besotted with my beautiful friend.
If things continue at the rate they are going we will face difficult life changing decisions.
What would i be letting myself in for ? How would my children react, parents etc ? This would be the hardest thing I could imagine but the benefits would surely outweigh the prejudices i would face, wouldnt they ?

Quote from: ponty on December 10, 2010, 06:38:32 PM
What would i be letting myself in for ?

an ugly divorce due to your cheating ways.

I so want to be your wife's divorce lawyer.

You shouldnt be cheating on your wife but I imagine you know that already.
If this is serious you need to come clean with your respective spouse's and let the chips fall where they will.
You have violated your wedding vows and your wife will be devastated but it is what it is.

Ok, i know I, or we , shouldnt be doing this. Point is though, it has happened.

We can't help it. Maybe we both aren't in the best of relationships. Maybe we should grow up and leave each other and be miserable in sham marriages. I don't know.

Anyone who goes through a relationship breakdown is in a stressful place. I just know that the situation surrounding our new relationship has its own complications over and above most.

My heart is telling me to pursue my new relationship, my head is saying I'm an idiot.

OK, so you met someone, hit it off, and are experiencing some confusion.

How long have you been in this marriage? Is it on the rocks? Is this something you'd be prepared to lose over something that may not have any real permanence?

Is your wife at all open to the idea of an open marriage? If not, are you prepared to take a life together and taint it with deceit?

Your responsibility to your relationship with her, and with your children, should be a significant consideration regardless of your other passions.

Think long and hard about these things, and have some perspective.

Ponty, you are apparently confused between fantasy and reality.  Your wife, your marriage - that's reality.  Your illicit affair, that's fantasy.  Sorry, I must be blunt.  That relationship has no weight to it, no challenges.  The most challenging thing about it is making sure no-one finds out, but that's also part of the thrill, isn't it.

So, you're bored.  So is she, obviously.  Your wife doesn't thrill you anymore.  Hey, welcome to life.  Maybe you're thinking "Is this all there is?"  Well, only if you let it be, but unless you have WORKED tirelessly, for at least as long as you've already been married, to salvage your relationship with your wife, and can honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say "I have done all I can," then you have NOT earned your way out of that marriage.  And the time factor doubles (at least) if there are children involved.  You owe this not only to your wife, but also to yourself.  You need to realize that unless you can conduct yourself with integrity, you won't be able to respect yourself, and that is ultimately the most important thing.

You have chosen to post this in an area where pretty much everyone is ABOUT respect, integrity, and being true to themselves.  You can do no less.

Men don't 'earn' their way out of a marriage, they 'pay' their way out.

Oh man, really? You screwed around on your wife, and then posted on an internet board for advice?

You're either a troll, or a person that's about to get taken to the cleaners by your wife's divorce attorney. Either way, justice served.

Whether you should or shouldn't take things further with your friend is entirely up to you. We can't tell you what to do, or how people that we've never met are going to react to your choices... But I'm willing to bet it will be very, very ugly. Is it worth it? Or is it only a mid-life crisis rearing its head, threatening to destroy your life?

And speaking of heads, you'd better check yourself and make sure the big head is the one doing the thinking...

WOW - we all seem very negative here. Ponty, for what it is worth I have some sympathy for your situation but that doesn't mean that I think you should automatically rush to break apart.

I've been with Alison 23 years now. I'm sure there have been a few times when we came close to breaking apart, but so far it hasn't happened and at this point I doubt that it ever will. The reason it never happened was that whenever we thought it through properly we realised that, imperfect as our relationship sometimes was, it was not dead or lifeless, so there was actually no guarantee that any other situation would work out any better. Sometimes the old adage of "better the devil you know," is worth heeding.

The problem with making decisions about relationships when you are "in love" is that you will automatically tend to see all the bad bits of your current relationship and all the good bits of the potential new one. That is not a fair and objective comparison.

So to make this decision you will have to be rather more honest and analytical than you so far seem to have been. You could start by asking yourself several important questions.

1. Was the original relationship already "walking dead" If so that places a different complexion on the issue of the affair. If you were previously just staying together out of habit, then that means that the affair was not what broke you apart but rather the product of your already dysfunctional marriage.

2. make yourself an honest list of the advantages and disadvantages of both relationships. What is good about them? what is bad?

3. If the current affair did not exist, would breaking apart from your wife represent a secret relief or a source of terrible pain?

4. If you broke apart, would this destroy your wife, or would she ultimately find new strength though it? If you feel you must part can you find a way to do it which is survivable for both of you?

When you have answered these questions honesty you will probably know better what you really want to do, and I, for one, would like to wish you good luck in whatever you decide.

Relationships in life are not always permanent. The important thing is never to destroy those we have loved, by the timing and the way that we leave. To leave someone at the risk of destroying them is selfish and is using them. If a parting of the ways is to happen it should really be just a natural progression for you both, and never simply one party deserting the other!

I feel for your pain but, creating a huge amount more all around you is not the way to go. As stated above you need to  get yourself in an honest place first. It will hurt less for everyone than the carnage  ypu are going to cause as things stand now.

Quote from: Jennifer on December 11, 2010, 07:36:34 AM
I disagree. If the marriage was dead, the marriage agreement should be dissolved first, then play around after. A marriage contract is the biggest most important agreement a person can make. BREAK THE DEAL, FACE THE WHEEL. >:-)
How can he answer questions honestly when he has proven he is completely dishonest?

Jennifer

Trouble is it could also be argued that those who go for transition after having taken marriage vows are also "Breaking the deal", particularly if they don't divorce before seeking any treatment. After all few if any spouses sign up expecting their loved one to suddenly turn out to be a different gender.

So should they also be condemned as unworthy of receiving treatment because they "broke their vows"? I think not. I think we should let he or she who has never made a mistake cast the first stone. If I used your logic I would ask how can they honestly say they are female when they have proven themselves "completely dishonest" by taking marriage vows as men?

In short an eye for an eye simply makes the world blind. (Or at best it means that the only people who can see are the ones who are so skilled at deceiving others so they never get caught!)

My point is that I am not willing to judge another person for making a mistake, even one that I have never made. There but for the grace of God etc, because compassion is always a more constructive answer than vengeance and judgement.

Oh and by the way I'm not saying I approve - merely that I try to understand.

I feel I was posing some of the same sort of questions as Jen, albeit in a far more brief, suggestive form.

I've seen few marriages last forever, but do feel that people whose marriages have stood the test for a while ask themselves some hard questions and engage their spouses in healthy dialogue before dropping bombs and committing to courses of action that may not have the substance to make it far beyond the initial appeal.

Infatuation fades. And the consequences of displaying carelessness with the lives of loved ones can be enduring. The original post didn't seem to suggest that a great deal of consideration for the family had been brought into play, but focused on the new affair.

Just food for thought.

Quote from: Jennifer on December 11, 2010, 09:31:40 AM
rejennyrated, I mean no disrespect, my point is that marriage is an agreement to remain faithful to each other. He dishonestly and willfully took advantage of his partner. He broke the agreement. Your argument about admitting to being TG after marriage is not valid. Nor is it relevant in this case. As I said before, marriage is the ultimate agreement we can enter into and once that deal has been willfully broken, how can one be trusted? Sure, marriages go through rough stretches and require give and take and much work, but if the basic ground rules are not followed, what's the point? And as Sydney pointed out, what about consideration for the other family members? If you want to have sex with others, ask your partner if it's O.K. If not, get divorced and play away.

Jennifer

Likewise I mean no disrespect, but I find it impossible to differentiate infidelity from any other situation in which someone has broken the terms and conditions of a vow. Thus, in my book, marrying when one is TG is exactly the same! It is a deception pure and simple...  and it can devastate the life of the innocent victim. It may not have been intentional, but the effect is precisely the same and therefore, I am quite seriously of the opinion that if we hold that one is unforgivable then so by inescapable logic is the other!

By the same token I am sure that very few people set out to be unfaithful, but life, as they say, is what happens whilst you are busy making other plans. Someone can quote moral theory at me all day. It doesn't change the fact that reality seldom so neat and convenient. If I have never been unfaithful I am honest enough with myself to know that this may only be because I have never been in the situation where I have been tempted, and that being the case I am not about to condemn someone else for failing a test which I may simply never have faced.

I am sorry but I really do regard marriage as any other solemn promise.  To set it up on some sort of unique pedestal is frankly to have a severely selective morality in regard to the value of your solemn word. To my eyes it is hugely simplistic. The truth is no solemn promise should ever be broken, by anyone, for any reason, but in the real world they are broken all too frequently.

Thus it becomes very easy to condemn someone else for doing something that we may be lucky enough to have escaped doing in exact detail whilst finding all the excuses under the sun to justify something morally equivalent, which we have done and which others may find equally offensive and unforgiveable. We justify this in our own minds by telling ourselves that marriage is a magical special case whereas what we did was just an unfortunate slip. Well sorry but it isn't! So I too am a miserable sinner, in a different context, and I too must seek forgiveness.

For this reason I prefer to always adhere to the scripture which cautions us to judge not lest we be judged. So I think we may have to agree to respectfully disagree on this. My advice to Ponty remains unchanged. He needs to do some serious questioning.

Quote from: Valeriedances on December 11, 2010, 10:33:13 AM
Follow your heart, wherever that takes you. It isn't that hard or complicated even.

No one should stay in a relationship where the love has died, for the sake of some concept of contract agreement, ownership, or societal rules/pressure. We dont OWN each other.

Has anyone seen Brokeback Mountain? I imagine the life portrayed in that movie mirrors lives many of us have had. I know it does mine.

Denying love for the sake of society has a terrible price. So my advise is follow your heart.

I wish you and your spouse the best.

I absolutely agree with listening to one's heart, and not doing things to simply please society; but as human beings, we're also very adept at lying to ourselves. I'd want to be absolutely sure that I wasn't just following some fleeting emotion that would lead me to nothing but heartache before I made such an important decision; one that would affect not only my life, but the lives of everyone around me.

I was not going to reply to this post. Because I believe in the tremendous commitment of matrimony . I could not,( in all good conscience) offer advice, knowing there is another person on the other side of this story . Who will be seriously injured or adversely effected.  On the other hand, I  have to acknowledge, " we are here now, what's done is done". To the original poster: I think you know how to handle this, it is like any other affair that unfortunately happens all the time. Just with a little twist.

   The reason  I am posting here, is, I am very proud to be counted amongst this very honorable group of people here. That in a society that pays so little or no regard to the marriage vows. Have spoken up for what they believe in. You are truly a wonderful group of people !!! :angel:

  Hugs and Love, Roxy  :)

   

I do not think marrying someone when they do not know you are trans is a violation of the marriage vows.
There is nothing in mariage that makes you promise to be a certain gender.
If anything the vows people say include the words "in sickness and health".
(I told Sevan long before we got married but if I hadn't I wouldn't consider it a betrayal.)

I also believe in the absolute committment of marriage.

And that, sometimes, marriages don't work.

But while I know this sounds very judgemental and I do apologise to ponty and any others for this. I don't believe that anyone deserves to be betrayed behind their back.

I've been following this thread and am reluctant to say this. It makes me out to be so perfect.

But ponty has asked for advice. Betrayal hurts people. It just isn't right and I'm sorry, I don't know your wife but she doesn't deserve that.

I would just like to clarify for those in any doubt that I do not approve of Ponty's actions.

My point is merely that our word should be our word whatever the circumstances and I therefore do not believe that any of us have the right to sit in any absolute judgement on the shortcomings of another.

Betrayal is betrayal, and wrong irrespective of the circumstances. I too believe that when you give your word you should keep it, but I recognise that I too have failed, even if not in this exact circumstance and therefore I prefer to deal with what IS rather than what ideally should be.

Having been the injured spouse as a result of a cheating spouse.  It causes the feelings of mistrust, even if you forgive as I did. 

Regardless of why one cheats, someone gets hurt.  If your marriage is so bad you need to cheat, get out of it.  It does still hurt but it will heal better of time.  I no longer trust a partner, because of what a spouse did to our marriage.  Even if it was because I am Trans, it still hurts just as bad.

So, if divorce is imminent...

1. Move out.
2. Find a really good attorney.  Maybe Kat will represent you.
3. Finalize the divorce.
4. Enjoy the life Tiger now enjoys, except with a bit less money.

DO NOT MOVE OUT - that looks like abandonment in court, make the other person move out.

Quote from: Jennifer on December 11, 2010, 01:10:00 PM
That's all I really meant to say. Sorry that I got so emotional about it. :)  Obviously a hot button issue with me. But hey, excellent discussion everyone. And like Roxy said, "You are truly a wonderful group of people".

Jennifer

I wouldn't worry. I have the luxury of a stable ultra long term "marriage" and some distance to my view. It is much less easy to be so relaxed when you may be going through other pressures of your own at the time.

I really do appreciate all of your comments. It's been a bit of a reality check for me. I posted it on here because i probably wanted your support for my relationship with my TS friend and i thought I was more likely to get that here than anywhere else.
I'm not proud of my behaviour towards my wife but I can't help my feelings. My new friend makes me feel loved and important which is something that i have not felt in my marriage for many years. I'm not trying to justify my actions but i would point out that we have not slept together for 7 years or so, we have separate rooms, we are good friends but nothing more.
Perhaps I shouldn't be doing this to a good friend, but on the other hand we're a long time dead. Am I any clearer ? Probably not. Maybe I'm leaning a bit more towards the importance of family and marriage but I know as soon as I see her again it will all change. I really am in turmoil, i don't expect your sympathy but I do appreciate the comments that you have posted.

I know I'm young and not married and probably not fit to include myself in this conversation, (especially since it seems over) but I just wanted to say a couple things.

- I'm not even going to comment on the cheating. From your very first post, you seemed like you knew where you stood on that, and it's not the reason you posted in the first place.

- I don't want to say that you are disillusioning yourself, because I have no idea. I don't know you, or your wife, or your partner. If you're feeling all this, and you've thought it through, and you still feel the same, then this is not you tricking yourself or just being confused. When you're with a person intimately, and you feel that connection, (especially under said circumstances) it's probably real. Don't downgrade it. Don't put it on a pedestal it doesn't deserve. Just go with it, whatever it is.

- You were saying that you were unsure how others would react to it. How your wife will feel. I've found that even if it seems late to tell someone the truth, life ends up worse when you never tell them the truth. I can't even imagine how hard it will be, but I feel like when the hard part is over, you'll be grateful that you eventually told her what was really going on. It will help the both of you get on with your lives. She deserves it, you deserve it.

I have so much hope that everyone turns out okay in your situation. At this point, the damage was already done. No amount of lecturing or arguing from anyone will make it go away. All you can do is try to make it better, let each others lives change, and be cautious in the future. Just be sure you are sure. You only have one life. You need to do what's best for you. Do your best to make it better for others of course, but you are the one living your life.

Good luck. There are always people here willing to talk.

Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2010, 01:17:28 PM
DO NOT MOVE OUT - that looks like abandonment in court, make the other person move out.

Does this mean you are accepting the case?

No, but he should find one, like yesterday.

Quote from: rejennyrated on December 11, 2010, 10:15:20 AMI am sorry but I really do regard marriage as any other solemn promise.  To set it up on some sort of unique pedestal is frankly to have a severely selective morality in regard to the value of your solemn word. To my eyes it is hugely simplistic. The truth is no solemn promise should ever be broken, by anyone, for any reason, but in the real world they are broken all too frequently.

I will only add one more thing.  Yes, marriage is a solemn promise.  It is a contract, just as any other solemn promise is.  And contracts must be abided by, or else ended equitably.  A contract in force does not imply immutability - a contract by its very nature is a finite thing.  This is not to say a contract can be easily or lightly discarded, there are obligations that must be met in the ending of a contract.  And even the Church (I'm speaking of the Roman Catholic Church, but many others take a similar view) admits that there are circumstances in which a marriage can, indeed should, be ended.  And there are laws and rules about that, both in the Church and in secular society.

However, that being said, while IN a contract, its terms must be respected.  Cheating is NOT the same thing as discovering that the basis of the contract is void and finding a way to end the contract so that both sides can retain some dignity and have their needs fulfilled.  Not the same thing at all.  I'm not lily-white myself in that regard, so I do have some experience to go by.  But when I took a look at the life I was leading, I realized I couldn't look in the mirror and like the person that looked back.  So I undertook to live a life of integrity.  Unfortunately, taking that to its logical conclusion, in my case, meant facing up to something about myself that I had been terrified to face in the past.  And in facing up to that, I realized that I could not live with integrity as a man, because that is not who I am.  So I am doing what I can to ensure that not only can I be who I am, but that the people in my life are also respected and their needs met as well as possible.  I am not simply abandoning my responsibilities.

Quote from: ponty on December 11, 2010, 01:25:25 PM....loved and important which is something that i have not felt in my marriage for many years. I'm not trying to justify my actions but i would point out that we have not slept together for 7 years or so, we have separate rooms, we are good friends but nothing more.

Okay, now this introduces a different angle, not previously brought into the discussion.

If your wife simply will not share physical and emotional intimacy with you for whatever reason, indefinitely, some might argue that you have a certain right to pursue these elsewhere.

Adopting that position for the simple sake of discussion, I still think it's best if your wife signs off on your extramarital pursuits. She just might.

She does not have the right to condemn you to a sexless life, no matter what circumstance may have led up to it.

If you have no other reasonable options, then cheat. But pursue whatever reasonable options are available for pursuit, if only for your own well-being.

Are you okay with your wife having relations with others outside your marriage?

Once again I find myself inclined to suggest Dan Savage's Savage Love podcast, which deals with such matters. You can even call & leave a voice mail soliciting advice (but leave a phone number so he can call back with questions).

I do not envy the difficult situation you describe. If you look under the hood, you'll find that members of this forum typically deal with some very delicate and painful challenges of our own.

Ponty,

I do not know about your personal situation or that of your trans friend towards whom you are interested.

However, if you truly love your trans friend, try to find out if she likes to be seen as trans or as female. If I were her, I would not prefer to be referred to as trans by a cis-gender (ie. non- trans) person. I would want to be seen and referred to as female only. Many of us transition to be known as female, not as trans (transgender, transexual, etc). You might want to find out more about her and stop seeing her as a once-male-now-female, ie. trans, woman. Ignore the trans history. She is just another woman.

Once you begin to see her as a woman, and not as a trans woman, you should be able to see things clearer. You are falling for a woman who is not your wife. Now how would you solve the issue?

Quote from: Janet Lynn on December 11, 2010, 12:45:48 PMIf your marriage is so bad you need to cheat, get out of it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.

Quote from: ponty on December 10, 2010, 06:38:32 PM
but the benefits would surely outweigh the prejudices i would face, wouldnt they ?

???

I think you need to tell your wife what's been going on whether or not you pursue anything with this other woman. And if you decide not to come clean, then you should probably divorce her either way as well. ...for her sake.

Quote from: Valeriedances on December 11, 2010, 04:05:44 PM
The reality is there is significant prejudice and it is an issue for SO's, which Ponty is contemplating being.

Ponty, you may want to read the Significant Other section of the forum, if you havent already, to get an idea of what SO's face.

Yes we suffer many prejudices but do we also suffer prejudices of others lack of being able to love us in spite of them?

Just to respond to a post on here and a private message I have received

You probably came here thinking that you would be thought of as a wonderful male who can love a TS woman without prejudice!  

No, I didn't at all. I came here because I have an issue in my life to deal with and the fact that the woman I am seeing is post op TS I thought it was a relevant place to post. It was obvious to me that I  would receive more constructive comment on here than on any other website.

However, if you truly love your trans friend, try to find out if she likes to be seen as trans or as female. I would want to be seen and referred to as female only. Ignore the trans history. She is just another woman.
Once you begin to see her as a woman, and not as a trans woman, you should be able to see things clearer. You are falling for a woman who is not your wife. Now how would you solve the issue?  

I do look upon my friend as a woman, 100% woman, I know of her past and have no problems with it, I never knew her pre op which has probably helped me personally. I only refer to her as TS as it is relevant to  the site that we are on. To me she is a beautiful loving and caring woman.

Hi, Ponty,

I'm curious to learn where online you met 'the other woman.'  I'm not intending to be catty in referring to her as that, for unless and until you give both her and your wife their dignity, your new lady-friend will be 'the other woman', 'the mistress', or what have you.

Sooooo....more thoughts to ponder:  What is 'love'?   What combination of attraction, attachment, affection, desire, enjoyment of another's company and fulfillment of unmet needs causes you to label this as true love? Again, not being obnoxious, as these are questions I seriously began asking myself a couple months ago.  Another is the acknowledgment that there are MANY beautiful people in the world with whom we may share things in common....but that doesn't mean we're meant to be with all of them.  And there's chemistry, too....in the heat of your new emotions and the thrill of trying not to be found out, and the possible feelings of solidarity to increase your bonding as you endure possible future adversity together  .... Well, leaves a lot of dust to settle before you two will discover whether this is a passing wave or a sure thing.

if you have marriages to address then address them. let the dust settle and maybe even think of exploring the rest of the world a little bit as a free man before getting too deep with your new friend.  I know it's hard to pause something you've started, but in the end I think it will work out better for everyone if you do it that way.  I'm not necessarily saying that divorce is the way to go, but by your own post it seems that that's what you want. ( a topic of interest which you and others may want to explore on a totally different thread is the viewpoint on marriage by neale donald walsh, as presented in his conversations with god books)

if your friend indeed identifies as female and not trans, you need not fear the reaction of the family or the public, unless you out her,  which would not be a very respectful thing to do anyway. 

Just my thoughts for whatever they're worth.

Best wishes,
Valerie

Ponty, First I would like to say, I am so glad I'm not in your shoes. I've played around, but with the wifes consent, only! We had an open relationship, and thankfully the relationship has been closed now for awhile. My advice is simple, tread lightly and learn from the reprocussions. You made your bed, now sleep in it.

Marriage is a seriously flawed contract.  The idea that how two people feel towards each other at some point in their life means they will always feel the same way is ridiculous.  Sure, it happens, but it's rare.

Marriage is a legal contract.  If you break it, the other party can sue.  I have a hard time calling that sacred.  The belief in everlasting love is great for movies and novels but in real life it's a fantasy.  Sure, it happens, but it's rare.

Marriage, as it is seen by many religions today, is outdated, antiquated and needs to be revamped.  For starters, eliminate the "til death do you part" from the vow.  Work needs to be done on the legal end too.

If Ponty feels the marriage has run it's course, it's better to get out than remain in an unhappy relationship.  Too many people do that and sometimes things end very badly.  If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. 

And the whole self-sacrifice thing, forget it!  You won't be rewarded later by hanging in there and being miserable now.  You will be seen as the same jerk if you leave now as you will if you leave later.  People cry "SELFISH!" the moment we stop giving them what they want.  Don't let that run your life. 

You're 51.  The clock is ticking.  If you're not enjoying life now, when will you start?

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 12, 2010, 09:35:28 AM
Marriage is a seriously flawed contract.  The idea that how two people feel towards each other at some point in their life means they will always feel the same way is ridiculous.  Sure, it happens, but it's rare.

Marriage is a legal contract.  If you break it, the other party can sue.  I have a hard time calling that sacred.  The belief in everlasting love is great for movies and novels but in real life it's a fantasy.  Sure, it happens, but it's rare.

Marriage, as it is seen by many religions today, is outdated, antiquated and needs to be revamped.  For starters, eliminate the "til death do you part" from the vow.  Work needs to be done on the legal end too.

If Ponty feels the marriage has run it's course, it's better to get out than remain in an unhappy relationship.  Too many people do that and sometimes things end very badly.  If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. 

And the whole self-sacrifice thing, forget it!  You won't be rewarded later by hanging in there and being miserable now.  You will be seen as the same jerk if you leave now as you will if you leave later.  People cry "SELFISH!" the moment we stop giving them what they want.  Don't let that run your life. 

You're 51.  The clock is ticking.  If you're not enjoying life now, when will you start?

Took the words right out of my mouth. It's not too late to do what you need and want to do.

This question could be posted in any public group. The answer is the same and it doesn't matter what gender the individuals happen to be.

Quote from: ponty on December 11, 2010, 01:25:25 PM
My new friend makes me feel loved and important which is something that i have not felt in my marriage for many years.

Of course she does, becuase its a new relationship, its fresh and its exciting.  She won't fart in front of you anymore then you'd leave your dirty drawers on her bathroom floor.  Its not real!  Your wife and her husband are old hat compared to the two of you.  Studies suggest people are only "in love" for about 18 months, after that they stay together becuase they're used to eachother.  Your married relationship is loveless and unimportant, what have you done to change the situation?  I mean other then cheat on your wife...

Quote from: regan on December 16, 2010, 11:07:14 AM
Of course she does, becuase its a new relationship, its fresh and its exciting.  She won't fart in front of you anymore then you'd leave your dirty drawers on her bathroom floor.  Its not real!  Your wife and her husband are old hat compared to the two of you.  Studies suggest people are only "in love" for about 18 months, after that they stay together becuase they're used to eachother.  Your married relationship is loveless and unimportant, what have you done to change the situation?  I mean other then cheat on your wife...

If that is the case then how do they account for couples like Sevan and I who are still madly in love many years after we first mated?
We were in honnymoon state for about 3 years before we cooled down a hair.

Quote from: ponty on December 10, 2010, 06:38:32 PM
Hi everyone,
i'm a 51 year old married man who has met a transsexual woman online, she is also married, but things are starting to get serious between us.

Yuck.  Divorce first, find mate second.  Both of you.  Unless both spouses know what is going on.  This is part of living an honest life.

But others have already said that.

Quote from: ponty on December 10, 2010, 06:38:32 PM
We've met a few times now and managed to have one night together when we made love like i have never known before.  It's difficult and we dont want to hurt our partners but our feelings are getting stronger for each other.

If you don't want to hurt your partners any more than you already have (your partners just don't know they've been hurt yet), it's time to come clean and deal with the repercussions.  I would be hurt if my wife cheated.  She would be hurt if I cheated.  It's pretty simple there.  If your partners aren't important enough for you to come clean and deal with the obligations you have, and your desire for your lover is greater than your desire to not hurt your partner, then...well, just be honest there.

Quote from: ponty on December 10, 2010, 06:38:32 PM
A few months back I knew nothing of transgender issues and if i was asked i would have recoiled in horror at the suggestion of entering a relationship with a mtf woman. Not now. I am totally besotted with my beautiful friend.
If things continue at the rate they are going we will face difficult life changing decisions.
What would i be letting myself in for ? How would my children react, parents etc ? This would be the hardest thing I could imagine but the benefits would surely outweigh the prejudices i would face, wouldnt they ?

I don't know.  What I do know is that when I married my wife, nothing would have stopped me from doing so, and it is a decision I don't regret one bit.  In fact, deciding to marry her was the *easiest* decision I ever made in my life.

You also mention children...I don't know how old the children are, but likely seeing Dad dump Mom for someone else (trans or not) that he was cheating on Mom with would probably result in a negative reaction.  You and they either will deal with it or not, but you shouldn't try having it both ways here either.

As for being a partner of someone who doesn't fit society's expectations perfectly, there is prejudice out there, certainly, and my wife and I definitely have strained relationships with the parents on both sides.  But something in the way you describe your situation and respond to things "raises flags" in my eyes:

(1) Her surgery is a big deal to you, because it's the thing that, in your own words, will make this "the hardest thing you can imagine".  That makes me wonder if she is, in your mind, the same person that she is in her mind.

(2) Whether or not the sex was good does not seem to have any direct connection to the rest of your message, but you seem to have mentioned it for a reason.  It seems irrelevant to me unless that's a primary motivator.

I won't tell you whether or not you should stay with your wife or divorce and go with your lover, as that's not really any of my business.  But I don't think you should sit in the middle.  Either go with the new or go with the old, but don't try to "spare" your current wife and have it both ways (and certainly don't hurt her while claiming you are only living a double life because you care for your wife).  I also think you should be careful about what you're doing, and run as fast as you can away from your lover if you start getting ideas that you are really doing a tough thing by loving her (or, even worse, that you are a good person because you can love her despite [whatever thing here]).

That said, if you quit living the double life, truly do love her, I'd say to go where your heart leads you and not worry about other people, other than, perhaps, your kids (depending upon their age - if they are not yet adults, I'd say you should absolutely be concerned).  I don't think it is any different than any other relationship - all relationships have times when things aren't easy/perfect/etc.  But if you see this one as particularly non-easy, non-perfect, or whatever else, then it's probably not right.

if you marry a person you would like to stay with her for the rest of your life, nut, it don't always works out that way.
of course you can fall in love with another person and sometimes love between you and your partner is over.
There is nothing you cab do about it, but, the woman you live with for so many years deserve respect and honesty.
when you're sneaky having an affair with someone else Tg or not, you don't give her the respect she deserves, isn't it?
some marriages have an expiration date, but it would be more gentlemanlike to be honest about it with your wife, don't you think?
suppose, it will be the other way around, your wife is having an affair and you don't know, you should be hurt when you find out.
So eb honest, to yourselve, to your wife and to the other woman, it will save a lot of trouble.

annette

This one was always going to be difficult and a few of you will probably be thinking well it serves him right but it looks like it's all ending in tears. My friend was honest to her wife, told her everything and not surprisingly it didnt go well, but they have decided to try and make a go of things. As a result I am history. I am devastated, I was preparing to make life changing decisions but it wasnt to be. I wish them both all the best, i know there has been alot of hurt with them, there is a lot of hurt with me and i suppose a lesson should be learnt somewhere along the line. I miss her like crazy. I guess it wasnt to be. Ok , so I am feeling sorry for myself and thinking what I have lost but I honestly am thinking of my friend more than anything, I know she is hurting at losing me but she is also hurting for the pain she has caused in her home. She has been hit both ways whereas in my own cowardly way I managed to keep this from my wife who is blissfully unaware of what has been happening. She will serve me Christmas dinner without the slighest suspicion that I was prepared to upsticks and walk.

You dont need to tell me, I know what I am.

Quote from: ponty on December 20, 2010, 03:43:06 PMYou dont need to tell me, I know what I am.

You COULD choose to be something else.  All it takes is some courage.  Wouldn't it be better to live an honorable life in the knowledge you have nothing to hide, than to spend the rest of your days both hoping this doesn't come out, and also feeling dead inside?

The thing is I wouldnt have minded if it had have come out. That's when i knew how important she was to me as nothing else mattered. I am dead inside.

ponty.

The feelings of most of us here in relation to honesty are a matter of record.

But I hope you will believe me when I say to you I feel for you and your heart break.

You have been good enough to describe some of the frustrations in your life and relationships. The best advice that can be give now is to put this behind you and try to figure out where you go from here.

Can you rebuild your relationship with your wife?

Do you have other options?

Whatever you dcide, I wish you well and success. Take care ponty. God Bless.

If you tell what will your wife gain? That is the question! If you do not tell you can start changing towards her and show more love or you should just maybe leave and just go because you have much to learn about yourself. Telling her might make you feel better about yourself but telling her especially when you have been dumped doesn't bode well for your telling her. It makes her feel like she got stuck with you and well that isn't very good for her self. I can't say what to do but if i had these feelings i would surely search my self as a single person and not as one having another in the ready for self security. When you can be alone and love yourself you will have love to share.

Here's a place you can go hang out with other dudes like yourself:
http://transoriented.com/ (http://transoriented.com/)

The feelings of most of us here in relation to honesty are a matter of record.

Byzantine record.

....Even though it was wrong of you I know it hurts.

Quote from: CaitJ on December 20, 2010, 05:17:10 PM
Here's a place you can go hang out with other dudes like yourself:
http://transoriented.com/ (http://transoriented.com/)

You've missed the point. I fell in love with the person because of who she was and what she meant and did to me. I didnt fall for her because she was TS. By knowing her and loving her I do feel it has made me a better and more understanding person and I know that is because she is TS.
Thanks for the link but its not what i'm looking for. I wasnt looking for anything when we found each other, but as they say, it just happened.

Quote from: ponty on December 21, 2010, 02:06:14 AM
You've missed the point. I fell in love with the person because of who she was and what she meant and did to me. I didnt fall for her because she was TS. By knowing her and loving her I do feel it has made me a better and more understanding person and I know that is because she is TS.
Thanks for the link but its not what i'm looking for. I wasnt looking for anything when we found each other, but as they say, it just happened.

Actually Cait, I apologise, there is some interesting stuff on there, I thought it wassomething else lol. Thank you.

Quote from: ponty on December 20, 2010, 03:43:06 PM
in my own cowardly way I managed to keep this from my wife who is blissfully unaware of what has been happening. She will serve me Christmas dinner without the slighest suspicion that I was prepared to upsticks and walk.

If you really love your wife, you need to tell her or acknowledge the fact that the next time something requiring a degree of truth out of you comes along you'll probably lie about that too.  I suspect this will probably happen again and the more you lie to your wife, the more you will become accustomed to lieing to her.  Actually now that I think about it, she wouldn't be the first wife to get a phone call "from a friend".  Can you be so sure she won't find out about it anyways?  If nothing else, you've now set a threshhold for yourself to call it quits.

You're still playing a dangerous game if you ask me.

Sorry, but I'm going to completely disagree with regan here.

Since the affair is now over, put it behind you and get on with your life. Telling your wife now will hurt her and probably cause her to seek revenge. That, is actually, perfectly normal with this sort of thing. It hurts like mad and tends to incite revenge.

So, don't say anything to your wife at all.

You might suffer a bit. But treat that as your chastisement. Your wife doesn't deserve to be hurt.

I agree with Spacial.
Say nothing.
Clean up your act and keep it that way.
Telling her is not a good idea.

You do need to get into counsiling. Probably as a couple is a good idea.

You're still playing a dangerous game if you ask me.

That's pretty much the reason people play it, not for the sex (which is good) but for the danger, which is awesome.  It's the extreme sports version of interpersonal relations.

Thanks again everyone, you really have been an immense help to me.
I have had a long conversation with my "ex" tonight, her name is Paula, it was a lovely conversation that i described as bitter sweet. She is giving it her best shot again with her wife after a good few years of a loveless relationship. I am genuinely pleased that they have managed to rediscover their love for each other. Paula's happiness means more to me than my own at the moment and i have wished her the very best for the future. I would have loved to have moved into the new year with her by my side, i was prepared to move out to be with her. She has probably got a more sensible head than me , i'll miss her like crazy but at least i have the memories of the short time we were together.
I'm not going to tell my wife, ( is that cowardly or sensible ? ) but I have promised Paula i will give it my best shot at recovering what we previously had here. Paula managed it in her relationship and that has given me the encouragement that maybe we can do it here too.
Thanks again, you're a good bunch on here, Merry Christmas to you all and a Happy New Year

Clearly I disagree with the others who have said to keep your secret a secret.  I do think marriage counseling is the right idea, however its not going to work worth a damn if you're not honest about what brought you there in the first place, which means coming clean about your cheating.  What caused you to cheat in the first place?  The cheating itself is just a symptom of what's wrong with your marriage, not the problem itself.

If you don't fix what's wrong this is going to happen again and again.  You know it, whether you want to admit it or not, if you and paula can cheat on your spouses with eachother, then you can just as easily cheat on eachother.  Ask yourself, how long before that happens?

exactly the cheating was just a symptom

If you treat the cause you need not worry about the symptom in this case.

i can't believe there are so many posts here defending the sanctity of marriage or some kind of sacred contract. especially when maybe half of us aren't even allowed to get married because we identify as gay transgender men or women, or we haven't taken that one particularly mechanical step in transition, loping off (or on) a part of our bodies. marriage is pretty much a state/church-established way to keep us from equality or justice or from simply having fun. it's always been that way. this kind of honoring of marriage is particularly ridiculous in places that encourage/force abstinence before marriage, so that stupid kids get married before knowing what sex is, and what kind of sex is good for them.

love, communication, and honesty are what counts. i agree wholeheartedly with those who say it's the cheating that's the problem here. he's a man who cheats. lots of women have faced that particular cruelty of life. it's a feminist issue. he's someone who expects sympathy as a cheater because he's ->-bleeped-<-ing a ->-bleeped-<-. as feminists we don't give it to him.

Quote from: kayg on December 22, 2010, 05:40:22 PM
i can't believe there are so many posts here defending the sanctity of marriage or some kind of sacred contract.

I've got a marriage that is not recognized in many parts of the US (certainly in some parts of Texas), many countries in the world, etc.  This is true of any marriage where one of the participants has a sex that isn't universally recognized.  But that doesn't eliminate the meaning of a marriage.  It's not something everyone would want, and that's fine - different people will want different kinds of commitment and will value things differently.  For me, I would never violate my marriage - if I fell out of love with my wife, and wanted someone else, I would be honest with her and seek divorce.  I would not lie to her and use her as my "backup plan" if what I really wanted didn't work out - because in our understanding of marriage (my wife's and my understanding, that is), this is a commitment to honesty, among other things.

But different people will have different views - that's fine.  Religious views (or lack of them) will certainly change people's opinions, too.

There are also at least three parts of marriage.  Not all marriages have all three:

1) Promises between spouses
2) Legal Obligations, Rights, and Responsibilities
3) Social recognition

For me, no matter if my wife and I go to Texas or not, #1 remains valid.  #2 is valid where we live now, and in much of the US, but would not be valid in some jurisdictions.  We're both fighting hard to make #2 valid in the entire country.  #3 is valid among our friends and most of the people we know, but not among everyone who knows us.  Some of our family members, for instance, would not even house sit for us during our wedding because of their views (they wanted nothing to do with being *at* the wedding, nor did they recognize it with even a word after the wedding; we both think they are still shocked that we are legally recognized as married where we live now - we don't think they thought it was "real").  It'll be a wonderful day indeed when #1, #2, and #3 are available to all who want them (including me).

Of all these, for me, #1 is the most important one.  It's my spouse that matters the most, not the government, not the minister, not my family.  But it would be less painful if the others recognized love all the time.  And I believe my marriage would be strengthened the minute everyone has access to marriage who wants it - right now it carries the taint of discrimination (I just happen to be, based on where I currently live, on the lucky side).

That said, for me, like you, love, communication, and honesty are the most important things.  I'm lucky in that I can say "marriage" to simply explaining my relationship with my wife, but, honestly, I would have felt the same obligations to if we weren't allowed to marry.

I support:
a) everybodies right to make that contract
or
b) nobodies right to make that contract


Either way.  One or the other.  But good for all, or good for none.  Any other way is UnAmerican.

Quote from: kayg on December 22, 2010, 05:40:22 PM
love, communication, and honesty are what counts. i agree wholeheartedly with those who say it's the cheating that's the problem here. he's a man who cheats. lots of women have faced that particular cruelty of life. it's a feminist issue. he's someone who expects sympathy as a cheater because he's ->-bleeped-<-ing a ->-bleeped-<-. as feminists we don't give it to him.

First of all I don't expect sympathy, i don't expect anything, i posted on here to get opinion and maybe some help. I certainly got both although yours is one I will be taking least notice of.
Yes I was cheating , and so was Paula, the reason we both did was because we were both in situations in our marriages where love, affection and communication was lost. Separate beds, separate rooms and as good as separate lives under our own respective roofs. We both felt the need for love, everyone wants to be loved dont they ? Neither of us wanted to go the rest of our life without any love, affection and attention. If we had that within our marriages then we wouldnt have cheated.
Fortunately for Paula she has been able to rediscover love and affection in her marriage and it is only what has happened between us that has changed things with her wife.

I was not "->-bleeped-<-ing a ->-bleeped-<-" as you so delightfully put it. We made love and my partner was transsexual. I posted it on a transgender site, i didnt realise it was a feminist forum.
My marriage lost the love, then the communication and then the honesty. The cheating did not start until 7 years of seperate rooms. The cheating was not the problem, it was the result of losing the other two traits first.

"Real feminists" never defend marriage and/or proprietary relationships, that should have been the first clue.  Feminists also know that it's not only men who cheat.

Quote from: ponty on December 24, 2010, 05:18:49 PM
Yes I was cheating , and so was Paula, the reason we both did was because we were both in situations in our marriages where love, affection and communication was lost. Separate beds, separate rooms and as good as separate lives under our own respective roofs. We both felt the need for love, everyone wants to be loved dont they ? Neither of us wanted to go the rest of our life without any love, affection and attention. If we had that within our marriages then we wouldnt have cheated.
My marriage lost the love, then the communication and then the honesty. The cheating did not start until 7 years of seperate rooms. The cheating was not the problem, it was the result of losing the other two traits first.

Lots of people end up in that situation, they don't cheat - they fix the problem that caused the loss of love, affection and attention or they get divorced.  You chose to cheat, no one forced you to.  All I see is you blaming your wife for the choices you made and further complicating the issue by lying (a lie of ommission) to her.

Quote from: regan on December 26, 2010, 05:49:40 PM
All I see is you blaming your wife for the choices you made

Please remind me where I have blamed my wife ? I have never blamed her once.

It's ok Regan, I get it loud and clear, I am the person here who isn't transgender or have any issues over my sexuality but I have been unfaithful with a TS woman and potentially put her SO at risk in their relationship and therefore I am a baddie. Oh the irony of the prejudice.

 :police: I think this thread has run it's course.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I think continuing to bash someone over the head when they have admitted that they made a mistake starts to cross the line into personal attacks which I am sure I need not remind you Regan constitutes a violation under TOS rule 15. Consider yourself lucky that I am feeling generous today.

Ponty I am also sure that if you read back through the thread there were those of us (myself included) who whilst not entirely approving of the situation did try to remain even handed and take a more pragmatic and practical view.

Either way, I think you have suffered more than enough abuse with considerable dignity. I have no doubt that if you could go back and do things differently you probably would.

Therefore I am now locking this thread to prevent further prolonging of the agony.

THREAD LOCKED  :police: