The Great TSA Pat-Down Smackdown
http://ts-si.org/guest-columns/27981-the-great-tsa-pat-down-smackdown (http://ts-si.org/guest-columns/27981-the-great-tsa-pat-down-smackdown)
G. Terry Madonna & Michael L. Young
Friday, 10 December 2010 09:00
Cementing his image as a friend of the traveling public, TSA Director John Pistole recently proclaimed,
"If they don't like it, they don't have to fly."
The it, of course, is TSA's new explosively controversial policy of subjecting any air traveler refusing to undergo an electronic body scan to a mandatory pat-down. In case anyone missed his point, Mr. Pistole added in a later Commerce Committee hearing, "If you're asking, am I going to change the policies, no, I'm not going to change those policies."
also...
"The TSA pat-down controversy has produced a defining moment in American democracy. It is a point in the age of Obama in which we find out if a single federal agency has become so powerful and so unaccountable that the clear voice of millions of Americans goes unheard and unheeded."
has become so powerful and so unaccountable that the clear voice of millions of Americans goes unheard and unheeded
Oh hell, Congress has been like that for decades now.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F26.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_ld7y05zYyD1qanb21o1_500.png&hash=48167dc195f51253a4bf2f04b4d0e5f1b91b3750)
Yeah, No-one likes terrorists... But also, no-one likes having their rights violated either and the TSA is just going too far with things
But also, we just happen to be the country everyone likes to attack at the moment so we have to put up with allot of crap
But anywhere you go, the wealthy treat the rest of society like hamsters on a wheel
The rest of the world likes to pretend that their poo doesn't stink... But it does
Quote from: Muffin on December 11, 2010, 04:20:43 AM
also...
"The TSA pat-down controversy has produced a defining moment in American democracy. It is a point in the age of Obama in which we find out if a single federal agency has become so powerful and so unaccountable that the clear voice of millions of Americans goes unheard and unheeded."
Lol... see, this I find funny. How long did it take some people to forget that this is a Bush policy? Good luck trying to roll it back though, anyone who tries to get it under control is going to get branded an anti-america pro-terrorist child murderer (probably with arab commie pinko thrown in there too). Once you've frightened people enough to start this it's nearly impossible to get the lid back on the box.
I do not believe in trading freedom for security. It is not the American way. It was absolutely horrible what happened on 9/11 but if you tell 300 million people to give up their freedoms because 3,000 lives were lost then you are actually doing a disservice to those who perished by letting the terrorists win. The terrorists win when they do something that causes a nation to change their ways. By giving up our freedoms we have given the terrorists what they wanted. It is also a slippery slope. No matter how much you improve security, there is always a way around it. If people tolerate these aggressive pat-downs now, then the next step could be body cavity searches. Are people going to allow someone's hand inside their vagina or rectum to make sure they aren't carrying an explosive device? What about children? Should an old man who just happens to have a badge be allowed to fondle a 5-year-old's genital areas for "safety?"
If you aren't willing to accept possible risks of an activity then don't engage in that activity. I don't believe that everyone else should have to suffer because of the actions of a few. Cars are statistically more dangerous than planes and cars can be used in terrorism. Am I going to be required to pat down my friends and family every time they get in my car? Am I going to be required to go through checkpoints every day to make sure my car isn't packed with TNT? There is a place you can go to that has tons of security with little freedom if that is what you want: prison. Those of us who choose freedom understand that with freedom comes responsibility and potential risks. Almost every time the government uses the phrases "safety" and "security" what they really mean are "managing" and "controlling." I do not want the government trying to protect me from myself (i.e. with seatbelt and drug laws for instance).
Speaking of airline security, I'd feel safer on a plane where a bunch of passengers were packing guns than on a TSA-"secured" flight.
reminds me of a song..... it doesn't matter what happens and it doesn't matter how far it goes we'll always lay down and take it. As a body of people we've lost the ability to truly stand together and fight against the BS. We can't even accept people like us with unwanted birth defects... or how ever you want to paint it. But saying that more power to those that try.
...
Manic Street Preachers - If You Tolerate This Your Children Will Be Next (Jools Holland '98) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTZms54FXs#ws)
"He who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security." - Benjamin Franklin
A federal judge declared the Obama administration's health care law unconstitutional Monday,
It just takes time to reinstate our freedom.
Who here has actually been through the new scanners? I have. If you haven't then all you can talk about is theory and whatever a few muckrakers want you to think.
I flew home for thanksgiving, they weren't even running them the day I flew home. On the way back they opened them up when the family in front of me at security with more bags then kids, and they had a lot of kids backed things up at the old scanners. I CHOSE to go through becuase I didn't feel like waiting in security - no one forced me to do anything. Step in the scanner, step out. Wait, wait some more. "Copy one anomaly" Aw crap. "Sir, I need to feel around your waist" (I was in male mode). Is there anything metal maybe you forgot to take off before going through the scanner? Profusely apologetic, he felt around my waist and sent me on my way. I still beat the family out of security. If that's what it takes to fly safely, I'm all for it.
What not to do? I'd suggest not wearing anything underneath your clothing that might be considered an "anomaly". And if you do get a pat down you likely will have a chance to explain things. Be honest, be polite.
Finally, most of the so called horror stories are just that, stories. Video evidence disproves a number of people's claims, in other cases no records could be found of them even flying the day of the supposed incident. Some stories are true, but they are few and far between. Above all else, remember TSA agents are no happier about having to feel peoples butts, inner thighs and various other body parts then you are.
The Right to Bear Arms was a good move but the right to carry bombs on planes is not. I'm with John Pistole.
I think when they make comments like "if you don't like it then don't fly", it comes across as sounding well...kinda stupid I mean for a lot of people they don't "choose" to fly but have to for work or whatever reason.. so to say that is yeah......stupid. It just proves they don't have anything legit to say to those that disagree with it.
Even if the experience is seemingly harmless it's still an invasion of privacy because they are virtually stripping you and someone is seeing that image. That is an invasion no matter how you sugar coat it.
Quote from: lisagurl on December 13, 2010, 03:05:41 PM
A federal judge declared the Obama administration's health care law unconstitutional Monday,
It just takes time to reinstate our freedom.
Yes, this is incredibly relevant to a thread on airport security procedures. :-\
Almost every time the government tries to infringe on freedom, invade people's privacy, or otherwise control behvaior, it is done in the name of "safety" and "security." A free citizen rarely needs government involvement in his or her daily life. Time and time again, it is demonstrated that the government is extremely inefficient at providing the things it claims to provide. Speaking of security, the U.S. government with its excellent military can't even remotely secure its southern border (nor the northern one). If the terrorists had not even been granted visas to come to the U.S. then 9/11 would not have happened. I'm not a fan of extreme de-regulation of corporations nor am I a fan of complete anarchy with regards to the individual. However, the majority of the time an individual, a group of citizens, or a corporation or other entity can do the same job that the government does on something much cheaper, faster, more efficiently, and with less consequences. Put a bunch of armed citizens on the Mexican border and I bet the border would suddenly become much more secure. Put the responsibility of airline security in the hands of the pilots, other crew members, airline owners, and also have passengers put each other in check and I bet airline travel would be safer and more secure. I haven't heard any citizen argue that they don't want to be safe on an airplane. Most, however, feel that there is a more efficient, effective, and less freedom-infringing way of doing it than a federal beauracracy employing donut eaters whose main focus is their next lunch break.
The Obamacare comment was off-topic but relevant in terms of discussing freedoms. For those outside of the U.S. who haven't heard about it the bill includes requiring Americans to buy health insurance vs. paying for healthcare in other ways. It is all the same to me. The government wants to increasingly get more and more into people's wallets, homes, cars, computers, jobs, schools, health, and in the case of TSA in people's pants. Every time the government "gives" you something it has the power to take that away. Think about it. In fact let's take a look at TS healthcare. In America, most insurance won't cover our treatments. However, like anything else in life we can save up money and get our surgeries, etc. when we are ready. The system sucks but at least if you have the money, you get your surgery and other treatments done. I read complaint after complaint on this board from those living in Canada or the UK where many of these treatments including SRS are free of charge. Yet people right here on this board write about waiting months just to see an endo, a year or more to finally get hormones, and many many years to get approved for SRS as well as having to go through endless departments and other redundant hoops to get what they need done. There is a reason why: government control. Whether it is airline security, funding for SRS, or anything else when you put government in control, it puts you out of control, period.
For those outside of the U.S. who haven't heard about it the bill includes requiring Americans to buy health insurance vs. paying for healthcare in other ways.
In other words, we are trying (and failing I might add) to provide healthcare for all of our citizens, not just the rich ones. You know, like your country does. Shocking I know. But just look what happened when major industrial powers like Canada, Japan, Germany and France did this. Why the very next day they flew out of the G-20 and landed smack-dab right next to Bangladesh and Mali on the old world economy chart. Now the factories of Germany lay idle, the streets of Paris deserted, it's shops shuttered the lights turned off and Japan once one of the world's leading economies is now merely one of the the world's leading economies.
@tekla yep... pity it doesn't seem to be working out, isn't it.
@Britney_413 I started to reply, then realised I'd typed more on healthcare than the entire commentary on this thread so far, so I'm going to start a new one somewhere else for it.
Quote from: tekla on December 14, 2010, 09:00:04 AM
For those outside of the U.S. who haven't heard about it the bill includes requiring Americans to buy health insurance vs. paying for healthcare in other ways.
In other words, we are trying (and failing I might add) to provide healthcare for all of our citizens, not just the rich ones. You know, like your country does. Shocking I know. But just look what happened when major industrial powers like Canada, Japan, Germany and France did this. Why the very next day they flew out of the G-20 and landed smack-dab right next to Bangladesh and Mali on the old world economy chart. Now the factories of Germany lay idle, the streets of Paris deserted, it's shops shuttered the lights turned off and Japan once one of the world's leading economies is now merely one of the the world's leading economies.
Well, with all due respect those countries haven't been spending (a lot) more money than they take in. I'm happy to allow social programs if we can get them without being taxed at ridiculous rates or quickly accelerating to national bankruptcy. But I also think social programs wouldn't be as needed if people had more of their own money to spend or save in the first place.
For what it's worth Britney, I agree with you on most counts. I know how loved libertarian-ish viewpoints are around here, so I just keep my mouth shut most of the time.
Quote from: pixiegirl on December 13, 2010, 09:43:19 PM
Yes, this is incredibly relevant to a thread on airport security procedures. :-\
=======
Your freedom is at stake if they can force you to buy insurance and government controlled medicine, they can force sexual abuse on you anywhere including going into the mall. Next step is a chip implant under your skin. What will follow that? You have no privacy, not on the streets, not in your car, not at the doctor, not at the airport, not at school, not at your job. Yes is is very important and very relevant to this thread.
QuoteWell, with all due respect those countries haven't been spending (a lot) more money than they take in.
Those countries are in worse shape when you compare their GNP to their debt than the U.S. is.
Quote from: lisagurl on December 14, 2010, 06:48:27 PM
=======
Your freedom is at stake if they can force you to buy insurance and government controlled medicine, they can force sexual abuse on you anywhere including going into the mall. Next step is a chip implant under your skin. What will follow that? You have no privacy, not on the streets, not in your car, not at the doctor, not at the airport, not at school, not at your job. Yes is is very important and very relevant to this thread.
And big pharma controlled insurance is by default better I suppose because the relatively few people in control of it aren't as accountable? You already don't have much privacy in most of those places, and none of that explains why you felt the urge to hold Obama responsible for a Bush policy agency he can't do anything to. You are aware they aren't the same person, right?
Quote from: lisagurl on December 14, 2010, 06:55:24 PM
Those countries are in worse shape when you compare their GNP to their debt than the U.S. is.
Would that be total debt, credit debt, just public debt, what? 'Cos depending on which you're either somewhat right, a little less right or totally wrong there. Also, most of them aren't owned by China either but hey.
QuoteYou are aware they aren't the same person, right?
It started long before with Social Security and FDR. Each time a man made catastrophe encouraged people to make choices they would not have made unless under duress. Computers just made it easy to take both our privacy and freedom. Each time the Federal control has gotten stronger and the states lose their liberty and independence. This is done by strings on Federal money. We can change the system by being responsible and not demand the Federal Government solve our problems. Big pharma as well as big everything else that is too big to fail is in violation of the anti trust and anti monopoly laws. Starting with Reagan no President has enforced them. We have a Government that does not follow its own laws. Yet it selectively enforces them on us. As you congressmen to have the same Obama care. They make themselves an elite and live under different rules. Unless we demand new corporate charters that include their reason to be also is for the public good and limited size, not just to make a profit we will only be more enslaved. We also have to pay more for American made goods as to demand a minimum wage here but buy products made for 80 cents an hour will never create meaningful work for Americans. We also need to tie our laws to the products such as environmental and worker safety. Those are the tools to fix America no health care or security inspections. If Americans took their responsibility and knew their neighbors we would not have illegal aliens breaking the law as we would know they are not citizens but criminals not caring about our laws or way of life.
It's good industrial policy, if that's good for all of us, but bad for you personally, tough. Move.
Quote from: tekla on December 14, 2010, 08:02:30 PM
It's good industrial policy, if that's good for all of us, but bad for you personally, tough. Move.
We are humans not an economy or industry. We are not efficient. You can not escape Global domination by the elites you can only find smaller and smaller places to hide from it. Marketing and control of your every move is everywhere.
We are humans not an economy or industry
We humans, the American one (though others on here also) live in a highly industrial, very technological economy. That's just a fact of life. The well-being of our nation depends on several things that are not economic, but the economic aspects of our lives as part of a global economy are undeniable too, at least for those of us who work. However, if you live on any sort of pension, retirement money, social security etc... then any situation that can can create hyper-inflation could wipe all that out in short order.
America........................................... it has so much potential. So much. :(
We'll try to live up to your expectations in the future.
mine or most of the rest of the worlds? :P
A lot of these problems are a result of the people actually. While the government is constantly thinking of new ways to control citizens' lives for the most part citizens actually want government in their lives. I can sum up just about all my political views on all issues in two words: personal responsibility. Every time you take responsibility for a choice you make whether it is your health, safety, security, finances, work, school, ethics, social interaction, relationship, or any other issue then that is one more step toward you being a free sovereign individual who determines your life destiny and your own pursuit of happiness. Every time you decide that you want someone else to take responsibility for one of those areas of your life you are delegating that choice to someone else such as your family or the government.
I used to be a flaming liberal. I believed in the mantra that the whole human population should come together, work together, share together, provide for each other, etc. I was basically a communist. Then as I started working and paying bills and interacting with more regular people in the adult world I started realizing that most people are where they are because they put themselves there. Some people are naturally lucky and others are naturally unlucky but even within those spheres they still have an element of choice. The problem with choice is that it comes with consequences requiring responsibility. People who want freedom understand the risks and responsibilities of choice and that nothing is guaranteed in life. People who don't want to have to take responsibility for their life want the government or someone else to do it for them.
This is why I'm now a libertarian. Life is tough and really sucks a lot of the time. But those who struggle through the impossible and eventually succeed become better people and set better examples to others in life. When everyone is homogonized to not think for themselves and give up powers to others to do everything for them it creates a lot of the problems we have today: intellectual laziness, no motivation, crime, a sense of entitlement, etc.
Either you control your life or someone or something else does. I don't like getting on commercial airplanes or entering government buildings for the sole fact that I'm required to give up my tools of self defense and put my faith in government security forces who at the end of the day don't really care what happens to me. I don't care if it is my safety, my health, my money, my religion, whatever. I want to decide how I pursue my happiness, not leave it up to the government. As long as people continue to not take personal responsibility, we will continue to lose our freedoms. It is that simple.
Meanwhile back at the ranch... I like the idea of wearing a bikini under a coat so there is nothing to hide. Or maybe I'm just letting out my inner exhibitionist. >:-)
I don't mind paying taxes,I like having a sewerage system and clean water to drink and good roads to ride my bike on. Also a health system that looks after the basics, but if I want more I can pay insurance to cover it.
Of course it helps if a country has a properly sorted, broadly based, sufficiently regulated but still flexible economy that lets it avoid the economic disasters that have befallen most of it's trading partners.
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
QuoteThere are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life:
One book when you are ready to be responceable. "The Proper Study of Mankind: An Anthology of Essays by Isaiah Berlin,"
One book when you are ready to be responceable. "The Proper Study of Mankind: An Anthology of Essays by Isaiah Berlin,"
And yet another book, when you want to use words the rest of us understand is "The Dictionary." Remember Lisa, when you want to be a smart-ass, and forget the 'smart' part, all you are is an 'ass'.
This made me feel disgusting when the TSA "touch" the children, this is the inapporiate way for doing this. These children needs not to be touched by these people!! They are innocent children, and yes, they will suffer mentally/physcially scar in their mind for the rest of their life.
This is worse case I ever seen in many years, Are we into "Big Brother" state? So much for terrorist. It is a price we have to pay for, and no, the freedom isn't free. I think I will ride the train/bus, or at least, rental car. Bye bye to the airlines industries!
Quote from: Midana on December 21, 2010, 02:13:21 PMThey are innocent children
In the "new and improved" America, everyone is guilty before proven innocent. Now, wait in line to be anally probed. After all, someone may be hiding a bomb in there.
Given the clear and overreaching abuse of this government, I can confidently say that the cake truly is a lie. For some reason, people still think they can have their cake and eat it. People need to wake up. The writing is on the wall. Every time people give up their power to the government, it allows the government to try to seize even more power.
In the meantime, our children are learning that it's perfectly OK for complete strangers to grope them in the name of "security"
Quotein the name of "security"
There will never be security if every citizen does not report any crime they see and testify against the criminal. Nobody wants to be responsible. Act like children then you will be ordered around like a child.
The TSA uses a modified "pat down" for children. They would have to fail the body scan to begin with before they ever got patted down. The teenager ahead of me went through just fine and didn't need a pat down.
As long as we're decrying the police state, lets remember we allow medical professionals to touch our children in far more invasive means in the name of medicine and no one has a hissy fit about it. Give the TSA a break and parent up for a change...
http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/pat_downs.shtm (http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/pat_downs.shtm)
http://www.adn.com/2010/11/24/1571271/scanner-or-pat-down-for-children.html (http://www.adn.com/2010/11/24/1571271/scanner-or-pat-down-for-children.html)
Yeah, about your parenting skills...
pacify pacify submit submit!!! *bows down to all mighty TSA*. Excuse me.....you missed a bit... don't be afraid it's ok.... ohhhh ohhhhhhhhh babbbbbyyyyy!!! that's the spot..... *drools* .....how do you do that..?....... where can I buy one of those magical wands???? *blush*.
I like how there is no difference between a medical doctor and some person making minimal wage with a GED...
Quote from: tekla on December 21, 2010, 08:22:30 PM
I like how there is no difference between a medical doctor and some person making minimal wage with a GED...
Yeah, I also like how there is no difference between a medical doctor, who has spent a vast amount of his own time and resources to achieve his occupation, versus some TSA agent working for eight dollars an hour who has a mininum amount of instruction (oh wait, I mean "training") to perform their job.
I really have the voice of the "Comic Book Guy" from the Simpsons saying "Worst comparison ever" stuck in my head.
Quote from: tekla on December 21, 2010, 08:22:30 PM
I like how there is no difference between a medical doctor and some person making minimal wage with a GED...
You're forgetting the rest of the medical professionals who have anywhere from 6 weeks to four years or more of training before they're unleased on you and your children.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on December 21, 2010, 08:25:45 PM
Yeah, I also like how there is no difference between a medical doctor, who has spent a vast amount of his own time and resources to achieve his occupation, versus some TSA agent working for eight dollars an hour who has a mininum amount of instruction (oh wait, I mean "training") to perform their job.
http://www.tsa.gov/join/careers/pay_scales.shtm (http://www.tsa.gov/join/careers/pay_scales.shtm)
Band A is between 8 and 10 an hour, basically minimum wage.
$8.89 bucks an hour is NOT EVEN minimum wage in SF. You have to love it when other people make the point for you.
How does the 'TSA pat down' compare to the SOP for getting a flight into Israel? I don't know it is a question.
How effective are these procedures and what science, both real and social are behind them. I have a friend, a fully qualified medic who was born in Palestinian. As he willing says he looks the Hollywood version of an Arab terrorist. Sallow skin colour, short cropped black hair, would need to shave every two hours not to have stubble. Is on an Australian passport. Banned from entering Singapore, where he had to stay in the departure lounge for 24 hrs for his connection flight. Body and baggage search at every European airport he has been to. Wouldn't bother going to the USA. And why?
Because he looks like a baddy in a Bruce Willis movie. For Goddess sake. If this is the responsible attitude for terrorist protection it is totally, completely and utterly flawed
I'm one of those who would like to see the facts and not the fantasy in both what is behind the TSA and the problems it has. I have no problems in complying with safety and security features but they have to be based in fact.
JMO
Cindy
Quote from: tekla on December 22, 2010, 01:20:16 AM
$8.89 bucks an hour is NOT EVEN minimum wage in SF. You have to love it when other people make the point for you.
Yeah. Regan saved me a lot of time by posting those statistics for me.
Quote from: tekla on December 22, 2010, 01:20:16 AM
$8.89 bucks an hour is NOT EVEN minimum wage in SF. You have to love it when other people make the point for you.
That's the base salary. Every federal employee gets an "locality adjustment" For SF its 35.15%. Your 8.89 is now $12.01/hr and Band A likely is a "training wage". So the person you see in the airport is probably making more then that - not so minimum wage anymore ($9.92/hr in SF for those that are wondering).
I once applied for a job at an airport and stopped them and told them I wasn't interested when they told me the pay rate. Maybe it's common for airports internationally (maybe not per se but more commonly)?
Either way it's not the most highly skilled work without a doubt.... except for the pilots but even then with all the autopil...just kidding :P
At least they haven't given bin men the freedom to grope us before taking our rubbish....yet :/