Someone decided today, after feeling snapped at, that they aren't going to use Susans anymore. Everyone here has been awesome to me but I guess he felt people had jumped at him over a simple question. :( I've seen a similar post to this in the past couple months but couldn't find it. So I just wanted to remind everyone to glance over their posts maybe? I don't know just felt something needed to be said. I remember on the last post everyone started apologizing on it, please don't think that is why I am posting this. I'm just sad to see a member leave because of a misunderstanding :(
i know what you mean maybe, i saw a post similiar to this by Mrs, Erocse...i think. stating someone told her they were leaving from too many negative comments. all people have to do is look over what they typed before posting. and think.
I feel the same way, Andrew. This person was very new (only a handful of posts) and was being treated very harshly unnecessarily. I wanted to speak up at the time, but I guess I was afraid. I hope we can convince this person to stick around.
Or perhaps someone is being a bit overly sensitive?
Perhaps, but this person might be a young teenager, and teenagers are very sensitive, and not just trans ones.
Quote from: sonopoly on December 30, 2010, 11:51:08 PM
Perhaps, but this person might be a young teenager, and teenagers are very sensitive, and not just trans ones.
Unfortunately the world doesn't cater to overly sensitive people, it is, overall, a very unfair place. If one doesn't acquire a certain amount of mental fortitude, one isn't going to survive.
Seriously, this place is like a box of sugar and kittens; if it's to tough for someone here, then I'm really worried about their ability to cope with, well, anything.
I think that some people come here to help them get stronger and get better at coping with the big cruel world. Where else can they go?
Quote from: sonopoly on December 30, 2010, 11:57:05 PM
I think that some people come here to help them get stronger and get better at coping with the big cruel world. Where else can they go?
To a counsellor?
The situation I was referring to in this post was handled :) Personally I just wanted this thread to be a reminder so while I won't ask an admin to lock it if everyone wants to talk about it but if not I can ask for it to be locked.
Vexing: While I respect your opinion I personally just don't agree. Part of what I love about the site is that everyone has their own opinion. This is a support site to help people cope with the cruel world. We're supposed to help each other not show everyone the cruel world.
If they are at that point. It takes a while to get to that point, I think. The internet is safe in this way. One can be anonymous in sorting this stuff out.
Hi Andrew Scott,
As you know we try hard to keep the site supportive for all of the members, and yes some are very sensitive. We know and appreciate that. We know there are people on the site who are suffering terrible depression and those who are fighting to not suicide. We also know there are some who are extremely close to doing so. The Mods and Admins try to talk to these people publicly and privately.
We are also aware of how young some of our members are, after all we edit their ages out :angel: to protect them. And yese we try and keep an eye out for them, but it isn't easy. We are all volunteers who do this in our spare time and try and cover the 24 hour clock.
One point I do want to make is that anyone who posts and feels upset about a reply, even if it is being overtly sensitive; report the post so that the Mods can look at it. Even if the post is in fact harmless and the member is being too sensitive we can try and let them know that. While we scan hundreds of threads not all of us pick up on small items. So it is up to the members to let us know.
Vexing is also correct in that some of our members feel that we over protect the site. Our instruction comes from Susan, who owns this site and who wrote the Terms of Service and instructs Mods and Admins in how she wants them monitored. There are other sites that are less restricted and maybe people who want robust and aggressive arguments take membership at them?
Cindy James
Quote from: Vexing on December 30, 2010, 11:54:42 PM
Unfortunately the world doesn't cater to overly sensitive people, it is, overall, a very unfair place. If one doesn't acquire a certain amount of mental fortitude, one isn't going to survive.
Seriously, this place is like a box of sugar and kittens; if it's to tough for someone here, then I'm really worried about their ability to cope with, well, anything.
I agree. The world is a very harsh place. Trying to make someone feel "fluffy bunny" all the time doesn't really help anything.
It's nice to feel validated and comforted. But "reality" has a strange way of slapping you in the face regardless of how comfortable you can make yourself feel. Sometimes, the best helping hand you can give someone is a swift kick in the bottom.
Quote from: Vexing on December 30, 2010, 11:54:42 PM
Unfortunately the world doesn't cater to overly sensitive people...
Yes, but we do.
Quote from: Renate on December 31, 2010, 06:55:34 AM
Yes, but we do.
I have to agree with this.
There's a lot of kind people on this forum.
Quote from: Vexing on December 30, 2010, 11:54:42 PM
Unfortunately the world doesn't cater to overly sensitive people, it is, overall, a very unfair place. If one doesn't acquire a certain amount of mental fortitude, one isn't going to survive.
Seriously, this place is like a box of sugar and kittens; if it's to tough for someone here, then I'm really worried about their ability to cope with, well, anything.
The last statement made me laugh, yeah it is like a box of sugar and kittens, but really being cruel to someone on the brink of "something horrible" is not the best option to deal with it.
The people that come here, some of them, are on the brink of doing something or just needing a helping friend. People can handle things, they just may not handle TG things well or something.
We're all different...all different lives.
There are occasional folk on the forums that are blunt, and occasional folk that push even a little further than that, but most folk here go out of their way to be nice.
I'm naturally the sort to be rather blunt, but I go out of my way to be nice.
A part of the problem is that some folk, maybe because they're feeling sensitive or abused in general, tend to read posts as if the forum's against them. They add a hostile, sarcastic, or angry tone of voice to the post they're reading.
It may be written from a soft spot, but when read with a hostile tone of voice, even the sweetest post will sound or feel like an insult or attack.
As such, it really doesn't matter what you type. If it's not what they want to read, they'll take it as an attack, as something hostile.
I've seen it time and time again, not just on trans-forums. Otherkin forums are notorious for this.
Even something as simple as going "what do you mean by that?" can cause a person to go "OMG! CLOSED MINDED! I LEAVE! MAKE MY OWN FORUM!" over there.. At least people over here are a little bit more stable..
It hurts though, to have someone misconstrue my posts and my intentions and decide to leave because of them.
It's not "fair" really. 'Specially when I feel like I'm giving good and honest advice which I genuinely believe would help and the response is to presume I'm attacking or trying to drive 'em away. :/
I would also like to add that being a moderator is like being a parent, at times a thankless and seemingly almost impossible task.
On the one hand you want to build up and support someone, and on the other the truth in what Vexing said is indisputable. Undoubtedly we do all also have to learn to stand on our own two feet and, to use the phrase that was oft quoted to me in my sensitive youth: Grow Up and stop thinking that the world owes you anything , because it doesn't and the sooner you realise that and come to terms with the fact that survival is a daily battle for everyone, the sooner you will stop feeling that you are being unfairly targeted.
Yes we must be supportive - but the fact is that I cannot live someone else's life for them. Ultimately I can support them and help them to find their feet, but sooner of later it has to be THEM and not me that does the living and makes the choices.
Only the other day, forum staff were reminded by one the senior members of the staff team of the need to remain neutral in certain specific situations precisely because there is a careful balance to be struck between support and living someone else's life for them. (I hope I am not breaking any confidences by saying that).
Do we occasionally get it wrong? Yes we do. We are only human beings and sometimes we mess up. So ultimately, though I agree that we should all self censor, I also think that sometimes we have to speak the inconvenient truth, otherwise this just becomes a huge backslapping exercise which won't really help anyone. Support means helping people to deal with the REAL WORLD, not wrapping them in so much pink cotton wool that they lose touch with reality, after all.
Where I think some members could perhaps improve their practice (no names no pack drill - and I might even include myself here) is in the application of a little tact in the way that we post, and indeed matching the approach to the individual. Some people do need a good hard kick in the pants, others would be destroyed by that. The trick is to figure out which you are dealing with and then adjust your tone accordingly so that you achieve the desired result rather than merely causing hurt and offense.
Quote from: Vexing on December 30, 2010, 11:58:01 PM
To a counsellor?
I have to say that I
respectfully disagree with this. I think a lot of people come to a place like this well before getting to a point of seeing a counsullor. A good thing about this site is there are a lot of good people here that will help direct people to counsulling with a gender therapist.
I always dismissed the value of therapist and always viewed them as a gategeeker who was just going to tell me what I already know. I haven't seen one yet but after talking with a lot of others I think there may be a value in doing so, so I hope to see one soon.
Quote from: Vexing on December 30, 2010, 11:47:33 PM
Or perhaps someone is being a bit overly sensitive?
And possibly a bit of an attention seeker. If people are really hacked off with a forum they just leave rather than make a big song and dance about it.
The internets...moar serious than real life.
I am not aware of the specific poster and instance that inspired the post, so my comments are meant more generally.
The people who have been posting for a long time and sticking around these parts (moderators or not) are faced with new trans young'ens practically every single day. For some people, maybe it's easy to be sunshine and kittens and puppies every single time. For some people, I imagine it gets hard to treat every person as a new and unique individual who desperately needs support and light shined on confusion, when for every questioning person who finds peace - whether through transition or not - there are two new ones to replace them. The risk of burning out in giving support, esp online where people are often nameless and faceless, is very high, and anyone who feels like they can't be supportive of new posters asking the same questions should take some away instead of feeling compelled to reply.
That said, I think it is easy to get frustrated at new posters - young or not - who starts many different threads asking the same thing or who simply aren't using the search function to read anything else that anyone has written. We are a support forum, but if the answer to your question is posted three threads away that someone else started or on the next page, find it instead of asking again. This "I am a special snowflake, therefore *MY* version of the same question warrants new support and answers" attitude can wear down even the most sunshine, kittens and puppies posters.
Perhaps there could be some sort of visible FAQ or highlighting of the most popular/common questions and threads.
I thought I would drop my two cents by, because it is an interesting thread... Is reality (the world) a cruel, harsh world? Sometimes, but remember there is plenty of altruistic feelings, love and happiness out there. Does that mean that one should be "realistic" and harsh to others? No, not necessarily. Some action, behavior, or facet of life may exist in nature (the world), but that doesn't mean it is a behavior to emulate. Why? Because, now this is my own opinion, people have the fundamental right to be treated with respect, dignity, and kindness; especially when they are laying their problems and themselves out in the open to find solutions to their problems. Is it alright to criticize others? I have no problem with that. But, I believe there is a definite line between helpful criticizing for the benefit of others and being openly degrading and potentially malicious; which, unfortunately, a very small minority of people here at Susans do. I think, some on this site believe it is their duty to expound 'the harsh truth of the world' when it is in fact their own opinion.
As far as the sensitivity factor... There are of course overly sensitive people out there, but saying that, I don't think they tend to populate Susans that often. I feel like as soon as you take offense to what a member says, they label you as "overly sensitive". From what I have observed in posts, I think that "overly sensitive" person is merely address the original criticism in the first place. Another issue pertaining to sensitivity is that here on susans.org, some of us are sharing our deepest and most truthful parts of ourselves (i.e. our gender identity). For some of us, these are parts of us that we have shared with no one. How is someone not supposed to feel a bit sensitive when we get a harsh response to our deepest truths that we may hold secret? And besides, there is the possibility that a tad of sensitivity is good. Sensitivity, and I am speaking for myself here, helps with empathizing with others and taking worthwhile advice to heart. Overall, sensitivity is a mechanism to understand the social cues of others. So to call others too sensitive may be an unfair approach when dealing with others (especially on the internet).
By the way, if you look through my posts, I don't get into these types of discussions on here. I don't engage in any of the petty bantering I have seen go by. These are just my observations and opinions, so please don't take personal offense.
I hope no one took offense to this post. Mods you are great and so is Susan. Truthfully ya'll handle stuff everyday that I couldn't so I think this site moves along very smoothly and well. I just posted this because I was one of the people who lately has been posting without thinking so this was a reminder to myself as much as it was to anyone else. I think a lot of ya'll have it right. One thing that stuck out to me a lot was
Quote from: forallittook on December 31, 2010, 10:06:16 AM
Another issue pertaining to sensitivity is that here on susans.org, some of us are sharing our deepest and most truthful parts of ourselves (i.e. our gender identity). For some of us, these are parts of us that we have shared with no one. How is someone not supposed to feel a bit sensitive when we get a harsh response to our deepest truths that we may hold secret?
That. Because when I first came here that is how I felt. I remember being the person who's world had just fallen apart and I was sensitive at the time. In my case and in many others everyone has been great and more than helpful handling situations delicately while adding in the "real world fator" (I guess that's what I will call it).
Sean:
Quote from: Sean on December 31, 2010, 08:41:22 AMPerhaps there could be some sort of visible FAQ or highlighting of the most popular/common questions and threads.
I second that idea could be kinda cool. I agreed with your post. I'd imagine is does get tough after a while.
Quote from: Miniar on December 31, 2010, 07:17:26 AM
It hurts though, to have someone misconstrue my posts and my intentions and decide to leave because of them.
It's not "fair" really. 'Specially when I feel like I'm giving good and honest advice which I genuinely believe would help and the response is to presume I'm attacking or trying to drive 'em away. :/
Miniar- You are an awesome guy and I always love your advice for the exact reason that you are blunt. I've never once seen something you've written that I didn't respect even if I didn't agree with it I respected it. It does get hard not being able to have emotion through text. Which is why I tend to over use smileys/sad faces to try to spell it out but I'd imagine it'd get annoying to read a billion emoticons so I have yet to find another way :-\
Cindy: Like I said somewhere in that mess of text above you Mods are awesome and I hope you didn't think I was trying to say otherwise with this post. I spend a lot of time on here and often see the amount of posts all of you go through so I do imagine it's very easy for one out of thousands in a day to slip through.
Jenny- You're right. There is a balance and it's almost always better to be honest and more like real life. Personally I need to improve my own practices as well so I agree. That quote exactly.
Quote from: rejennyrated on December 31, 2010, 07:55:43 AM
The trick is to figure out which you are dealing with and then adjust your tone accordingly so that you achieve the desired result rather than merely causing hurt and offense.
Quote from: Renate on December 31, 2010, 06:55:34 AM
Yes, but we do.
And that's the point I think. There is a time for lessons in the harsh realities of life and how scuzzy the world can be, I think that we all know this, seeing as the world is pretty damned big and difficult to miss.
I'm not saying that everything has to be tripple dipped in sugar and sometimes differences of opinion can be constructive, but there are times when things can go a little far. As has been said there are vulnerable people on the site and this is not a good time of year to be vulnerable and I have heard of two trans people who have decided to take their own lives this holiday season and I do think that the trans community as a whole could be more supportive sometimes.
Quote from: StacyBeaumont on December 31, 2010, 08:19:42 AM
I have to say that I respectfully disagree with this. I think a lot of people come to a place like this well before getting to a point of seeing a counsullor. A good thing about this site is there are a lot of good people here that will help direct people to counsulling with a gender therapist.
The question was:
QuoteI think that some people come here to help them get stronger and get better at coping with the big cruel world. Where else can they go?
Or, more simply: "Where else can they go
other than Susans?"
To a counsellor. My answer still stands.
Quote from: Megan on December 31, 2010, 07:14:32 AM
The last statement made me laugh, yeah it is like a box of sugar and kittens, but really being cruel to someone on the brink of "something horrible" is not the best option to deal with it.
The people who are on the brink don't make passive-aggressive threads about leaving.
As Helena said; they just leave.
Quote from: rejennyrated on December 31, 2010, 07:55:43 AM
Grow Up and stop thinking that the world owes you anything , because it doesn't and the sooner you realise that and come to terms with the fact that survival is a daily battle for everyone, the sooner you will stop feeling that you are being unfairly targeted.
Or, as my good friend Chopper Reid would say...
Ronnie Johns - Chopper - Harden the ->-bleeped-<- Up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y#ws)
(
Warning! Strong language)
Quote from: Vexing on December 30, 2010, 11:54:42 PM
Unfortunately the world doesn't cater to overly sensitive people, it is, overall, a very unfair place. If one doesn't acquire a certain amount of mental fortitude, one isn't going to survive.
Seriously, this place is like a box of sugar and kittens; if it's to tough for someone here, then I'm really worried about their ability to cope with, well, anything.
Why THANK YOU, for those kind words. >.<
Argh sorry. Kinda moody right now. Didn't mean to be like that. :/
Hey everyone has their off days. 'Sall good. Seriously though it's not up to us how those people cope in the real world, it's just up to us to help the people here looking for help, I think.
The most important time I think someone should tell the truth is when they if they pass or not.
That's important because they shouldn't be deluded into thinking otherwise, and go out to the world and see the reactions of people who read them.
I agree Megan I'm very blunt when it comes to telling someone if they pass but I think it's all about presentation of how you say it. Like if someone doesn't pass maybe pointing out the things that do pass (for guys: Square jaw, masculine hairline and such) or giving a suggestion along with an answer and if all else fails an encouraging reminder of what hormones will help with if you know they are going to start them.
Personally when I ask I'm asking for many reasons but one of them is safety. There are some places I avoid if not passing to avoid any trouble.
Thanks for the post Andrew. I've been wondering about that for a while. So far no ones said anything terrible to me directly, but I've definitely read things that has made me feel uncomfortable or just plain hurt. I find most often these things escalate when people are trying to put forth their opinions back and forth and certain people just will not let disagreement stand. Their word is final, no matter what anyone else's opinion is, and sometimes very personally important opinions.
What can I say, I have borderline personality disorder. I'm fighting it as much as I can, but I don't have the money or support to go to a counselor, and I'm prone to self-destructive behavior. One most days I can keep it at bay, because after six years I've learned how, but on bad days, the ones where I can really use some support and help, I don't dare come here. That's how bad it is sometimes.
Joseph I'm sorry you're having to handle that struggle :( My ex had a few things to work through similar to that and without her meds it got really bad so I do somewhat understand. Usually on a bad day I find it fun to go to the site and look directly at the quizzes section or even just the general section. Often Janet Lynn posts some very cute or funny stuff that takes my mind off struggles for a while. While I love a good debate and like to see everyone opinions I've noticed occasionally you're right it does become heated so I usually just ignore those until I can look at it with a clear mind.
I hope one of these days you can afford to see someone if you want to man. Happy New Year! :)
Quote from: JosephKT on December 31, 2010, 11:59:36 PM
One most days I can keep it at bay, because after six years I've learned how, but on bad days, the ones where I can really use some support and help, I don't dare come here. That's how bad it is sometimes.
Joseph, I'm really sorry to hear that. I don't want people to avoid the site when they need it most. What is it specifically that makes you avoid the site when you need it? PM me if you feel more comfortable doing that.
Forum Admin, you are an awesome and helpful guy :) Just wanted to throw that out there.
Joseph- Heck yeah man Grand Theft Auto solves all of my anger issues :laugh:
Andrew: sorry I deleted my post just now, I just didn't want to keep repeating myself. I'm a Starcraft guy myself, Protoss FTW!
Forum Admin: Well, I guess it was really gets to me when I see someone having a real issue whether good or bad that they want to share and it gets hijacked by people who want to make it about their own opinion and damn if anyone else it going to disagree. I guess examples would be helpful: I find the most easily identifiable one is if people are having problems because they live with or are active in a religious community that doesn't accept them and they would like help with dealing with it. It soon becomes a, sometimes really hateful, back and forth about the validity or invalidity of religion. I'm not saying it's specifically the religion debate, but it's that kind of thing where instead of giving someone help someone's decided "this is my place to force my opinion on the rest of you, in whatever language I please, and don't tell me otherwise." I don't think it's something that monitors can do a whole lot about, that's the nature of on-line forums, but I guess I would just hope that on a place like this where we have some really sensitive issues going on people would be more considerate of why others are here before posting. It definitely has made me think twice before posting something personal about myself.
BTW- overall this is a really great community, I'm not saying admin's and regular posters haven't been awesome, they have.
Quote from: Andrew Scott on January 01, 2011, 12:46:48 AM
Forum Admin, you are an awesome and helpful guy :) Just wanted to throw that out there.
Thanks Andrew. :)
I really do want everyone to get what they need here. And I take every complaint seriously and am just a pm away. Hell, even if a complaint is about me. I try, but I realize I may not always say the right thing. :laugh:
Edit:
Just saw Joseph's post. Yes, I see what you're saying. Religion can be such a hot topic and there are members here who have trans issues (or other issues) specific to their religion, and criticism of their religion does little to address them.
Religion is honestly the easy one to notice I think, but this kind of attitude crops up a lot. But hey, like I say, that's how on-line forums works.
I often think about leaving
Quote from: Virginia Marie on January 01, 2011, 02:46:11 AM
I often think about leaving
:( I love seeing your posts. I would hope you don't. You seem like an awesome person to talk to.
While I do not know who left Susans or the context of that discussion, I think that some people who are overly sensitive may be in a bad situation about which we do not have sufficient information. Yes, the world is cruel and we need a certain amount of mental fortitude to survive, but sometimes some overly sensitive individuals reach out to a supportive group for the box of sugar and kittens. There are periods of adversity that some people go through during which support matters more than a dose of reality. Someone I know from a local crossdressers group attempted suicide after being rejected by family, losing her job, getting ridiculed by society, etc all on account of her gender transition, and finally getting a dose of someone else's reality at a website which was supposed to be a crossdressers support forum. It took a lot of people to support her thereafter, but she seems to be living a healthy life now. So let us be kind to people. We do not know what else they are dealing with in their lives.
Once again, I do not know about who is the specific person we are talking about who quit Susans, but we should not make someone already feeling helpless more desperate as a result of our comments.
Quote from: marissak on January 01, 2011, 04:43:34 AM
While I do not know who left Susans or the context of that discussion, I think that some people who are overly sensitive may be in a bad situation about which we do not have sufficient information. Yes, the world is cruel and we need a certain amount of mental fortitude to survive, but sometimes some overly sensitive individuals reach out to a supportive group for the box of sugar and kittens. There are periods of adversity that some people go through during which support matters more than a dose of reality. Someone I know from a local crossdressers group attempted suicide after being rejected by family, losing her job, getting ridiculed by society, etc all on account of her gender transition, and finally getting a dose of someone else's reality at a website which was supposed to be a crossdressers support forum. It took a lot of people to support her thereafter, but she seems to be living a healthy life now. So let us be kind to people. We do not know what else they are dealing with in their lives.
Once again, I do not know about who is the specific person we are talking about who quit Susans, but we should not make someone already feeling helpless more desperate as a result of our comments.
No one quit Susans. Read the damn thread.
See, the problem that I have is that when people pull the desperation act, most of the time they are crying 'wolf!'. Have you ever read 'The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf''? Like the villagers in the story, people get irate at being used for someone else's attention trip. After it's happened too many times, people start Not Caring when it happens and can't muster the energy to do anything about it - and they get really good at spotting those who are just crying 'wolf!' for attention and those who are For Real.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foglaf.com%2Fmedia%2Fcomic%2Fwolf.jpg&hash=2059ee988031958838727a59c6863b76ebda8ccf)
Quote from: Vexing on January 01, 2011, 04:51:15 AM
Read the damn thread.
Lol. ;D Precisely the masculine attitude which the person who attempted suicide described to me. Tone it down a bit please or you might end up hurting someone.
I was describing a general principle/practice of being kind to people. Please read without prejudice.
Quote from: marissak on January 01, 2011, 04:55:22 AM
Lol. ;D Precisely the masculine attitude which the person who attempted suicide described to me. Tone it down a bit please or you might end up hurting someone.
What?
:police: Right cool it both of you!
@Marissak you have a point, but I'm sure you are aware that calling most MtF's masculine would be felt by them to be a bit insulting or threatening to their identity so it is best avoided.
@Vexing - you have a point, that was rather a cruel way for Marissak to say something - but the serious point which you do need to take on board, is that some people on this site are fragile and can't handle the brutal honesty that you and I hopefully can.
@both On this occasion I am not handing out any warnings - but no further retaliation or insults will be permitted. Talk respectfully or not at all. :police:
As usual i seem to have missed all the interesting things that have been happening. Who's going? who's staying? Mods i think you do a brilliant job 99.9% of the time, and i think on a forum like this where most of us are wearing some kind of emotion on our sleeve or are all hyper sensitive to a particular subject or idea people are not always going to hear what they want in response to their posts. Hell , i'd love for someone to tell me i'm smooth suave and sophisticated but i'm still waiting ;D. Love you all tho.
Al, you are smooth, suave, and sophisticated :) and a totally awesome guy.
Thank you Andrew- now to print that out to show the rest of the world!
A good piece of advice I keep doling out (and had to learn the hard way too, mind you) is that when someone on the internet hurts your feelings, don't reply/"react" while still upset... take 5 minutes away from the computer if you have to.
Take the time to calm down and then re-read. If it's definitely an aggressive/insulting post, then report it and/or respond calmly. If not, then respond calmly.
Quote from: Miniar on January 01, 2011, 04:58:34 PM
A good piece of advice I keep doling out (and had to learn the hard way too, mind you) is that when someone on the internet hurts your feelings, don't reply/"react" while still upset... take 5 minutes away from the computer if you have to.
I have my version of this, only it's twenty-four hours. :P
I actually feel that silence is the most hurtful response- at least if people are answering a post ive made then i can engage with them
I havent read the thread in question and dont know what was said.
But I do get the impression that there are some people on this board who expect to be told that:
everything is easy
you will pass with no problems
everyone will be totally accepting
and they do not particularly like it when it is pointed out that this is not generally the case.
There are also people who come here still and still think being trans is a lifestyle choice... It just stuns me that these people think that transitioning and being operated on is just something they should do because they 'feel like it'
I do think we should try to be nice to people here but we do need to point out the error of their ways.
You mean i won't pass easy? Darn, i thought this press up look had so much going for it
Quote from: Catherine on January 01, 2011, 05:38:25 PMThere are also people who come here still and still think being trans is a lifestyle choice... It just stuns me that these people think that transitioning and being operated on is just something they should do because they 'feel like it'
How do you know that, for them, it ISN'T this way?
Quote from: Arch on January 01, 2011, 05:22:57 PM
I have my version of this, only it's twenty-four hours. :P
Sometimes I'm away for an hour, taking out my frustration on the dirty dishes. The kitchen's never so clean as after I've been made proper angry.
Quote from: Arch on January 01, 2011, 05:59:44 PM
How do you know that, for them, it ISN'T this way?
Because they come across in their posts as someone who has this idea that they should be a girl.. Not that they are a girl.
I dont believe that being Trans is an idea or a whim. It is what you are, it your whole being.
Maybe I am wrong for some people but I don't think I am for most of us.
Quote from: Catherine on January 01, 2011, 05:38:25 PM
But I do get the impression that there are some people on this board who expect to be told that:
everything is easy
you will pass with no problems
everyone will be totally accepting
and they do not particularly like it when it is pointed out that this is not generally the case.
Absolutely. We encounter people like this everywhere, not just on a trans support site.
But there's a big difference between telling such a person, "Yeah, right. Face reality. You're not gonna be able to get a job as a third-grade teacher, so suck it up" and "I hate to say this, but I don't think you're being realistic about your career prospects. If you read recent news articles, you'll find that parents and administrators do not tend to deal gracefully or fairly with trans teachers."
Or whatever.
I've seen what happens when my colleagues are too frank with college students. The students shut down and never come back for help again. I tell my students the truth about their abilities and prospects, but I neither sugar-coat it nor state it so baldly that I hurt their feelings. They tell me that they appreciate my honesty AND my support, and they keep coming back for help.
Crafting a thoughtful post that is polite AND honest doesn't take all that much more effort, and there's a much lower risk that you'll alienate people so much that they fixate only on how you said something and pay no attention to what you actually said.
Quote from: Miniar on January 01, 2011, 06:02:37 PM
Sometimes I'm away for an hour, taking out my frustration on the dirty dishes. The kitchen's never so clean as after I've been made proper angry.
Rats. I'd invite you over and enrage you, but I just washed my dishes yesterday.
When I was a teenager I thought that it was a choice. Either follow my feelings, get completely rejected, ruin any chance of a career, normal relationship/family, probably end up in sex work miserable and alone or suck it up, try to be a man and make a go of my life. It took a lot of miserable painful lessons to teach me that it wasn't a choice, that I was in fact female and that transition was my ONLY hope for any kind of life.
But I didn't know it then and I'm sure that many other people have made/are making the same mistakes that I did and I think that a little understanding and letting people know that they are not a freak and they are not alone should be a priority when talking to new people rather than instant armchair diagnosis.
When dishing out the brutal truth, I think that you should always check your motives, whether you are just being truthful or just being brutal.
Quote from: Arch on January 01, 2011, 06:14:46 PM
Absolutely. We encounter people like this everywhere, not just on a trans support site.
But there's a big difference between telling such a person, "Yeah, right. Face reality. You're not gonna be able to get a job as a third-grade teacher, so suck it up" and "I hate to say this, but I don't think you're being realistic about your career prospects. If you read recent news articles, you'll find that parents and administrators do not tend to deal gracefully or fairly with trans teachers."
Or whatever.
I've seen what happens when my colleagues are too frank with college students. The students shut down and never come back for help again. I tell my students the truth about their abilities and prospects, but I neither sugar-coat it nor state it so baldly that I hurt their feelings. They tell me that they appreciate my honesty AND my support, and they keep coming back for help.
Crafting a thoughtful post that is polite AND honest doesn't take all that much more effort, and there's a much lower risk that you'll alienate people so much that they fixate only on how you said something and pay no attention to what you actually said.
I never said we should be rude to them. But we should let them know the truth about life.
how ever some of the people who come here don't want to know the truth are are just expecting affirmation of what they believe.. It doesnt matter how you sugar coat it with them what ever you tell them isn't going to get through...
Most people's Ship of Dreams runs aground on the shoals of unrealistic expectations.
Quote from: Catherine on January 01, 2011, 06:37:03 PM
I never said we should be rude to them. But we should let them know the truth about life.
how ever some of the people who come here don't want to know the truth are are just expecting affirmation of what they believe.. It doesnt matter how you sugar coat it with them what ever you tell them isn't going to get through...
I didn't mean to imply that
you said we should be mean to people; I was just pointing out (mainly in response to the whole thread) that some people can't seem to separate medium from message, and I think that can be problematic.
Oooh!
Another thought, almost forgot completely...
There's people from all over the world 'round here. Not everyone's a native English speaker.
Not everyone words things the same way. If someone replies with "fine" they may mean it in an up-beat "yeah okay, no problem" manner, where another person replying may mean it in a passive-aggressive "whatever you say mr/miss bossy boss".
This can be even more different because certain people may be almost dictionary-like in their word usage while others might be using heavy colloquialisms. If you want to be certain you're reading everyone's posts right you can either read 'em mostly literally, or you can get to know every single poster intimately enough to know exactly when they're literal or not... and even then you might get it wrong on occasion.
I really dont think this is a place where we should try to second guess people who are reaching out for help. So what if someone is crying wolf and you arw rightwhen you call them out on it? Well, score one for you for being right!
But what if you are wrong? What is the downside and cost to shooting down someone reaching out for help and you shoot them down when they are most vulnerable? We cant expect everyone who visits this site to always have our level of maturity, writting ability or level of reasoning.
Quote from: StacyBeaumont on January 02, 2011, 12:24:55 PM
I really dont think this is a place where we should try to second guess people who are reaching out for help. So what if someone is crying wolf and you arw rightwhen you call them out on it? Well, score one for you for being right!
Well, that's a really thoughtless attitude.
Let's say for example that my fiancé has a history of suicide attempts and depression. Let's say that someone's little passive aggressive attention seeking spree on the internet is taken to heart by me and I invest my time and emotions into helping them. Let's also say that I've been traumatised by my fiancé's suicide attempts and that this person's 'wolf' crying is very Triggering to me and brings up all that emotional pain. Or that someone has cried 'wolf' to me before and I spent an emotionally wrecked half a day trying to track down their phone number and address in a different damn country to mine because I thought they had overdosed on a bottle of pills and were dying on the floor of their bathroom.
There is a cost to the helper when someone cries 'wolf'. Sometimes too big a cost to ever do it again - and these people, quite frankly, ruin it for the people who DO have a wolf eating their sheep.
There's more to this than 'Yay, you were right, move on."
A lot more.
Yeah, support site and cry wolf don't really exist in the same sentence. Support. It's the foundation upon which we're built. People who are hesitant to help others that they think are crying wolf should consider spending their time 1) remaining silent about the matter and peruse other messages to comment on 2) consider not spending time on a support site.
Are there times we each feel like someone may be acting passive/aggressive in an attempt to get sympathy, sure, definitely. But we owe it to people as members of a support site to help each other in our moments of need. Everyone has their ups and downs, their individual triggers, their little idiosyncrasies. It's part of the reason why most of us have probably pulled back more replies than we've sent around here.
Quite a few people come to this site and other sites because they feel like they might find a compassionate place that's different than the rest of the world. If they come here because they expect the same harsh, cold, "realistic" response they are going to get in the "real world" than we'd be a social networking site, not a support site. I'd like to think that most of us around here care about people and are able to articulate that and be supportive.
It's like being at a party and you have someone over in the corner crying and threatening to hurt themselves out of despair, the same person who at the last two parties did the same thing. Do you go over and help comfort the person? Do you leave the room? Do you just not go to parties anymore where they are? Do you walk over to them, point at them and say "lol, yo, seriously, you need to get a grip. Are you going to do it or not? We're pretty sick and tired of all those hollow threats and excuses. Either do it or don't, but shut up either way!" I hope the kind of place we have here at Susan's would put most people in any group except the last one. People act out around here in so many different ways; they all need care and compassion to make it through the rough spots, even the people we "get tired of" or the people that "pull the same stunts over and over again."
Awesome post Meghan... Got my vote :)
I think you missed the entire point in the continued quest to be "right". If we knew for certain if someone were crying wolf it wouldnt bean issue. There is a big difference in SUSPECT and KNOW. I for one am not goung to thrash someone I dont know here because of a gut feeling. I'm done with this thread now. It's just going to cause bad feelings to continue.
BTW Vexing, your before and after pics are incredible! You have really blossomed into a beautiful woman.
Quote from: Vexing on January 02, 2011, 02:15:17 PM
Well, that's a really thoughtless attitude.
Let's say for example that my fiancé has a history of suicide attempts and depression. Let's say that someone's little passive aggressive attention seeking spree on the internet is taken to heart by me and I invest my time and emotions into helping them. Let's also say that I've been traumatised by my fiancé's suicide attempts and that this person's 'wolf' crying is very Triggering to me and brings up all that emotional pain. Or that someone has cried 'wolf' to me before and I spent an emotionally wrecked half a day trying to track down their phone number and address in a different damn country to mine because I thought they had overdosed on a bottle of pills and were dying on the floor of their bathroom.
There is a cost to the helper when someone cries 'wolf'. Sometimes too big a cost to ever do it again - and these people, quite frankly, ruin it for the people who DO have a wolf eating their sheep.
There's more to this than 'Yay, you were right, move on."
A lot more.
Quote from: MeghanAndrews on January 02, 2011, 02:59:17 PM
Yeah, support site and cry wolf don't really exist in the same sentence. Support. It's the foundation upon which we're built. People who are hesitant to help others that they think are crying wolf should consider spending their time 1) remaining silent about the matter and peruse other messages to comment on 2) consider not spending time on a support site.
Are there times we each feel like someone may be acting passive/aggressive in an attempt to get sympathy, sure, definitely. But we owe it to people as members of a support site to help each other in our moments of need. Everyone has their ups and downs, their individual triggers, their little idiosyncrasies. It's part of the reason why most of us have probably pulled back more replies than we've sent around here.
Quite a few people come to this site and other sites because they feel like they might find a compassionate place that's different than the rest of the world. If they come here because they expect the same harsh, cold, "realistic" response they are going to get in the "real world" than we'd be a social networking site, not a support site. I'd like to think that most of us around here care about people and are able to articulate that and be supportive.
It's like being at a party and you have someone over in the corner crying and threatening to hurt themselves out of despair, the same person who at the last two parties did the same thing. Do you go over and help comfort the person? Do you leave the room? Do you just not go to parties anymore where they are? Do you walk over to them, point at them and say "lol, yo, seriously, you need to get a grip. Are you going to do it or not? We're pretty sick and tired of all those hollow threats and excuses. Either do it or don't, but shut up either way!" I hope the kind of place we have here at Susan's would put most people in any group except the last one. People act out around here in so many different ways; they all need care and compassion to make it through the rough spots, even the people we "get tired of" or the people that "pull the same stunts over and over again."
The mistake you're making here is in thinking that 'support' only comes in 'warm fuzzy and cuddly'.
It doesn't.
There are many different kinds of support and I'm glad that the community here is diverse enough to offer various different kinds of support - from Fluffy-fuzzy-lovey support to Kick-in-the-pants support (both of which are equally compassionate).
Quote from: Vexing on January 02, 2011, 03:53:33 PM
There are many different kinds of support and I'm glad that the community here is diverse enough to offer various different kinds of support - from Fluffy-fuzzy-lovey support to Kick-in-the-pants support (both of which are equally compassionate).
I don't much find kick-in-the-pants support to be compassionate because not everyone will take it that way. Example: Someone comes here threatening to end there life. While yes fuzzy lovey support doesn't fit in that scenario neither does kick in the pants. In that situtation its better for a bit of both more of a "we care about you but we don't support that action" Well, I mean don't take that too literally because that's not exactly what I would say but more of the way I would say it.
I think Meghan's post had it exactly right.
Quote from: Andrew Scott on January 02, 2011, 04:00:32 PM
I don't much find kick-in-the-pants support to be compassionate because not everyone will take it that way.
Compassion is about the intent of the giver, not how the receiver interprets that which is given.
In my opinion, that "kick in the pants" support is only effective when you know the person you are administering it to very well. It also needs to be applied in private to be effective. For an online resource where relative strangers are interacting by text only it is very difficult to achieve the kind of intimacy that approach requires and when it's used in a forum such as this, more often than not it's viewed as an attack.
Tact is the skill that allows a person to make their point, even potentially painful ones, without it feeling as if they are attacking people. That kind of tact is not always in evidence at Susan's, or the rest of the world for that matter, and we would all become better people if we were to dedicate ourselves to developing that skill.
hugs & smiles
Emelye
Excellent and intelligent explanation Emelye :)
Quote from: Vexing on January 02, 2011, 04:09:20 PM
Compassion is about the intent of the giver, not how the receiver interprets that which is given.
And if the giver reasonably expects the recipient to recognize that compassion, then the giver needs to communicate it effectively. Or at least try to.
Case in point: a kid comes home after curfew, and his father gets angry and says some harsh things. The kid sees anger (not caring). He feels hurt, and he lashes out at his father. I would say that the father was worried and concerned, but he didn't convey his compassion very effectively.
Quote from: Arch on January 02, 2011, 05:33:37 PM
And if the giver reasonably expects the recipient to recognize that compassion, then the giver needs to communicate it effectively. Or at least try to.
Case in point: a kid comes home after curfew, and his father gets angry and says some harsh things. The kid sees anger (not caring). He feels hurt, and he lashes out at his father. I would say that the father was worried and concerned, but he didn't convey his compassion very effectively.
It isn't a requirement that the recipient recognises it as compassion for it to be compassionate.
Sometimes I vastly prefer that they don't.
It's alright sweetie, you're going to be absolutely fine! People just are meanies sometimes, awww, don't listen to them no more, no more! It's going to be alright, okay? Alright. I really care about you, and we rainbow people stick together! Lalalla, life is beautiful, repeat, lalala, life is beautiful! Now, no more tears! ;)
Think happy thoughts ;)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages03.olx.com.my%2Fui%2F8%2F10%2F46%2F1280783270_107810446_1-Pictures-of--Lovely-Siberian-Kittens-1280783270.jpg&hash=46c4615d9b0bcc4ccb30a6a01b7531f11e5d09d1)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fmarketplace%2Fpre-2007%2Ffiles%2Ffood%2Fsugar%2Fgfx%2Fsugar_top.jpg&hash=b0496f1085cfdf6c23c5605e9b8992f97d1b220a)
Alright I don't know about the sugar or the life is beautiful but seriously I'm liking the cute little kittens :)
As for compassionate what's the point of being compassionate but not letting the person know it? I mean going by Arch's example and the response Vexing posted let's say the dad has compassion but doesn't let the kid see it. Then the kid will be anger and feel like no one cares even though the dad does and he will act out worse. It'll just end in fighting usually even though the dad really cares. It goes back to delivery. I always respected my mom for the way she handled things. She was compassionate but not sugarcoating when I got into trouble. That's kinda how I try to be on here. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to deliver it how they want but personally I try to... to figure out how to best express it to the reader. Like Miniar said you can't get to know everyone so when it comes to handling responses for new people I try to balance compassion without sugarcoating it all.
Quote from: Andrew Scott on January 03, 2011, 02:32:06 AM
Alright I don't know about the sugar or the life is beautiful but seriously I'm liking the cute little kittens :)
As for compassionate what's the point of being compassionate but not letting the person know it? I mean going by Arch's example and the response Vexing posted let's say the dad has compassion but doesn't let the kid see it. Then the kid will be anger and feel like no one cares even though the dad does and he will act out worse. It'll just end in fighting usually even though the dad really cares.
Life is complicated. The dad may not want the son to know that he loves him in that way, since it's a generational pride issue. He would rather cause more friction with his son than allow a perceived loss of mana by explaining his true intentions to his son.
Quote from: Vexing on January 03, 2011, 03:59:31 AM
Life is complicated. The dad may not want the son to know that he loves him in that way, since it's a generational pride issue. He would rather cause more friction with his son than allow a perceived loss of mana by explaining his true intentions to his son.
True, which I find sad that even a dad has to not show emotion so that he can be "manly". At the risk of debate while I agree with what you said in that example when you place that example in relation to the board why would any of us who have fought gender stereotypes and such want to hide our compassion? Sorry I'm not questioning you, just asking any general. I'll be honest, I wear my heart on my sleeve (which seriously isn't always smart) but I really do care about the people here and want to show them the compassion I feel so I don't understand why someone would want to hide that :-\
I think i might want to chime in.
I have been on this forum for a few years now, even tho it says "newbie". I have not posted much on this site though. Ive watched how things have unfolded time and time again. I can honestly say that when i first came to this site, as most of you, i was looking for some type of support people to relate to in the struggle i go through in life and how to cope. This is what i've noticed some girls feel that the are so "far" in their transistion that they are now a so-called expert and are far superior to most newcommers, alot of the girls are stubborn as donkeys in their view of things which quite frankly is ironic being that we expect the world to have an open mind towards us.
During my transition i have learned something though, i hold this in very high regard because it is so pertenante in my situation "he who has not sinned shall cast the first stone" (im not one for quoting the bible either being that im agnostic but its pretty relivant).
My words to you sisters and brothers on this site is to re-evaluate where you have come from and reevaluate who you are as well (as i recall none of us are actually born in the bodys of the gender we identify with) so you nor i are better or more superior than each other. But what we can do is be supportive of each other because i know i how felt when i wasnt the number one dime piece and i still am not , but you know what it takes time and you yourself is or was in this situation at one point or another in your life.
I think no person is too big to have new friends.
just my two cents, let that simmer for a bit .
Quote from: Andrew Scott on January 03, 2011, 04:53:38 AM
I wear my heart on my sleeve (which seriously isn't always smart) but I really do care about the people here and want to show them the compassion I feel so I don't understand why someone would want to hide that :-\
Your understanding is not required :)
We'll leave it at that, shall we?
Quote from: BridgetBby on January 03, 2011, 05:17:22 AM
During my transition i have learned something though, i hold this in very high regard because it is so pertenante in my situation "he who has not sinned shall cast the first stone" (im not one for quoting the bible either being that im agnostic but its pretty relivant).
Cute quote, but it fails in practice due to this:
If only the innocent are allowed to pass judgement, then there shall be no judges.
Tough love is love, but not everyone can take it.
And sometimes, the "tough love" comments just make things worse.
If my hubby hadn't gotten a "you're an idiot" comment a few years back, then we would never have met, but then it was the right place, right time, and right topic. If I'd call him fat when he sneaks a piece of chocolate, even if he's carrying 'round a couple extra pounds and should probably skip that piece of chocolate if he wants to be rid of them, then even if I intended it as tough love, it would just be an a-hole move.
Quote from: Vexing on January 02, 2011, 03:53:33 PM
There are many different kinds of support and I'm glad that the community here is diverse enough to offer various different kinds of support - from Fluffy-fuzzy-lovey support to Kick-in-the-pants support (both of which are equally compassionate).
Lol, I thought of this response last night when I saw this commercial, it's fitting and made me laugh. True, so true, many different kinds of support here like this gentleman shows in the video:
R. Lee Ermey GEICO Commercial - Therapist Sarge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlWddAXSRA#)
Quote from: MeghanAndrews on January 03, 2011, 05:19:30 PM
Lol, I thought of this response last night when I saw this commercial, it's fitting and made me laugh. True, so true, many different kinds of support here like this gentleman shows in the video:
R. Lee Ermey GEICO Commercial - Therapist Sarge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlWddAXSRA#)
LOL... That's the same thing I think of every time I see a certain person's post :laugh:
I love that commercial. "JACK WAGON"!!!!
'Jack-Wagon' is now my new favourite quote :D
Quote from: MeghanAndrews on January 03, 2011, 05:19:30 PM
True, so true, many different kinds of support here like this gentleman shows in the video:
One of the reasons I try not to give advice too often is precisely because that is almost always my response to people.
I tend to solve problems very aggressively.
On a site like this, I am very careful because there are people who tend to be more sensitive than on other more general sites (I frequent a very popular movie site and a cooking site). If I feel qualified to answer a question here or help someone, I think about it very carefully because it may have a big impact (it may not, but I'd rather err on the side of caution).
My main goal is to help the person while being honest. I don't need to post to get "published" or get notches on my posting belt, or to appear to be witty or clever by throwing off some pat or glib answer. I don't need to post quickly, it's not a race. I need to post thoughtfully and carefully. If I can't do this, I won't post at all.
I know that I can't expect to change anyone's life positively by what I post or, on the other hand, be responsible for something that a person does negatively by what I post, but I don't want to ever have to question myself about that. I don't see the point in posting something that isn't helpful or that could possibly be negative and hurtful. I know that it's important to put information out there, but I think it's really already out there or rather the negative opinions are out there. Everybody has heard them more than enough. That's why people come here.
Oh, I want to add that this applies mostly to new people here or people who are in an especially vulnerable time or those who are just generally sensitive. I know that there are some here who can throw stuff around to each other and that it's enjoyable for them.
Quote from: MeghanAndrews on January 02, 2011, 02:59:17 PM
Yeah, support site and cry wolf don't really exist in the same sentence. Support. It's the foundation upon which we're built. People who are hesitant to help others that they think are crying wolf should consider spending their time 1) remaining silent about the matter and peruse other messages to comment on 2) consider not spending time on a support site.
Are there times we each feel like someone may be acting passive/aggressive in an attempt to get sympathy, sure, definitely. But we owe it to people as members of a support site to help each other in our moments of need. Everyone has their ups and downs, their individual triggers, their little idiosyncrasies. It's part of the reason why most of us have probably pulled back more replies than we've sent around here.
Quite a few people come to this site and other sites because they feel like they might find a compassionate place that's different than the rest of the world. If they come here because they expect the same harsh, cold, "realistic" response they are going to get in the "real world" than we'd be a social networking site, not a support site. I'd like to think that most of us around here care about people and are able to articulate that and be supportive.
It's like being at a party and you have someone over in the corner crying and threatening to hurt themselves out of despair, the same person who at the last two parties did the same thing. Do you go over and help comfort the person? Do you leave the room? Do you just not go to parties anymore where they are? Do you walk over to them, point at them and say "lol, yo, seriously, you need to get a grip. Are you going to do it or not? We're pretty sick and tired of all those hollow threats and excuses. Either do it or don't, but shut up either way!" I hope the kind of place we have here at Susan's would put most people in any group except the last one. People act out around here in so many different ways; they all need care and compassion to make it through the rough spots, even the people we "get tired of" or the people that "pull the same stunts over and over again."
Exactly,
thank you for the intelligent post
Hm... are far as the judgment goes on it's the intention of compassion that counts, and the receiver doesn't have to understand. I think I'll quote someone who has more eloquence than I:
"...good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding."
-Albert Camus
Quote from: JosephKT on January 05, 2011, 12:24:51 AM
Hm... are far as the judgment goes on it's the intention of compassion that counts
No one said that.
What was expressed was that it is still compassion if it is intended as compassion, even if the recipient doesn't think so.
Quote from: Vexing on January 05, 2011, 12:44:49 AM
No one said that.
What was expressed was that it is still compassion if it is intended as compassion, even if the recipient doesn't think so.
Semantics. The point still remains, as many people have said, despite intentions what is expressed may be very damaging to the recipient. That is all.
Quote from: JosephKT on January 05, 2011, 12:52:00 AM
Semantics.
Actually, no. You expressed a view on a subject that was not raised, inferring that it
had been raised.
It had not.
That's not what 'semantics' refers to. Semantics refers to the meaning of words.
QuoteThe point still remains, as many people have said, despite intentions what is expressed may be very damaging to the recipient. That is all.
A redundant point; it's self evident that good intentions don't always have good results.
Why is common sense so uncommon?*
*That's a rhetorical question, btw.