I'm afraid I have to insist on the equal chance to be heard on the "s/he" thread. While, it is great for everyone to inject their thoughts and then issue me warnings / locking the thread so I am unable to respond.. . sadly, it simply wont do.
Like all my posts, I don't find the need to insult or break forum rules (well, other than the "we don't want to hear what you say" rule). So, there would be no real justification for deleting things (other than the rule mentioned before).
Also, I think it is important to cover a key issue before we start.
There is a difference between someone being "insulting" and a person being "insulted". Within the thread I was not intentionally insulting, simply some found themselves being insulted by my viewpoints.
Within a tiny forum community, it is great you have the ability to silence those who's ideas or thoughts you don't like or upset you. But, sadly, the world has many different ideas and viewpoints. ..it is kind of important to be able to discuss these viewpoints without being insulted and without degrading to what we saw happen in the s/he thread.
I find it troubling that so many are unwilling to have a calm open discussion with different points of view. I had no idea that the trans community was apparently only open to its own clique ideas on the subject.
QuoteYou wrote in another post that you just found out about transsexuality/transgender a week ago.
Haha, no. I have known of transsexuality / transgender most my life. What I discovered recently was that the real possibility of transitioning through modern medicine. Previously I had thought it was an issue of "you are stuck with what you are born with".
QuoteSo out of the 32 chromosomes, you are going to select one to determine if a person is male or female. What about the Intersexed. Men with XX, or women with XY. And what of those that are XXY. Your argument does not hold water. It is just as bad as selecting Bible verses to prove a point. It does not work.
Hmm, actually, this would make your argument "not hold water". My argument was that the spectrum of the trans community is so large, that simply using "male" and "female" is not adequate. While you may feel male and female is enough for your personal situation, what about (as you say) "those that are XXY"? Should they need to "pick a side"?
Looking at this situation only through what works for you is shortsighted.
QuoteNot only are you telling other people what their "real" gender is and making massive assumptions about their motivations
Nope, again, this is a misunderstanding (which, is a lot easier to clear up when dialogue is allowed to continue). I am not attempting to tell anyone what their gender is. I am just saying the language is lacking words for the middle ground (unless you think an androgynous person NEEDS to decide to be called a "he" or a "she"? I'm sure they would find that offensive as neither word is really adequate to describe their self identified gender).
Gender is how you identify, and it is up to the individual to decide (how can someone pick that for you?). Sex is the body (which, by and large, can be adjusted to match the gender).. . but, beyond that, are genes. .. which (like I said) can not be changed (though, it seems like many people would rather pretend they don't exist).
Don't read this as me saying "you must" do anything. That you are genetically male or genetically female (or both) has no impact on what your gender or sex must be. ((though, I'm sure someone could take up the argument about the link between genes and sex, but I'm not touching that here)).
QuoteYou're new, and so it's not surprising that you're spouting off the transphobic crap you've absorbed from society.
Now, this strikes me as very odd. What exactly is transphobic about anything I am saying? Actually, what I am saying is very open to a wide range of people (more-so than the limited binary construct that everyone else seems to be fighting for with the "male" and "female" identifiers .. .which leaves the "middle ground" folk out in the cold).
QuoteActually the world is with me. When I walk down the street, buy an icecream from the 7/11, buy clothes or go to a film, people think that I am female.
There isn't any reason for them to assume that I am anything else.
Well, great for you! Sadly, not everyone is like you. There are a large number who do not fit so neatly into the binary "male" and "female".
QuoteEveryone here has the right to self define as they choose. That right simply IS NOT up for discussion or debate.
I am not arguing the right of someone to self define as they choose. Perhaps that is misunderstanding. I am simply saying we are missing a few words for those who don't so easily fit into the polar opposites of the gender spectrum. Maybe a MTF who does not feel the need to take SRS and considers themselves 70 percent female and 30 percent male. Who is not trying to be "all girl", and does not feel that adequately describes their "middle ground" self identification.
To take this to a more personal level. I identify along the same lines (which is why I am considering HRT). That you find my searching for a more adequate language to use as "offensive" and "transphobic" is very.. . troubling.
Like I said in the thread itself, these are just considering things out loud and very much a "rough stage" thoughts. I even said trying to clump everyone on the trans spectrum under one label had issues that didn't seem like it quite fit.
But, apparently everyone is far more interested in an irrational crazed "burn the outsider!!!" than actually calmly discussing an issue with differing viewpoints. It actually caught me a bit off-guard and makes me consider what the trans community is really like (along with if I would really want to belong to something like that if I were to move forward). Anyway, things to think about.
Quote from: Fancyrabbit on January 08, 2011, 10:50:28 PM
I am not arguing the right of someone to self define as they choose. Perhaps that is misunderstanding. I am simply saying we are missing a few words for those who don't so easily fit into the polar opposites of the gender spectrum. Maybe a MTF who does not feel the need to take SRS and considers themselves 70 percent female and 30 percent male. Who is not trying to be "all girl", and does not feel that adequately describes their "middle ground" self identification.
Right, so we're going to need 98 different words to fit the percentage variables that don't fit into 'male' or 'female'.
Have fun with that.
You identify as whatever you like. I am 100% happy to be called 'female'.
QuoteTo take this to a more personal level. I identify along the same lines (which is why I am considering HRT). That you find my searching for a more adequate language to use as "offensive" and "transphobic" is very.. . troubling.
No, your use of transphobic language is troubling. VERY troubling.
I don't know why you haven't been unceremoniously booted off here already.
The mods are extremely lovely and tolerant.
QuoteBut, apparently everyone is far more interested in an irrational crazed "burn the outsider!!!" than actually calmly discussing an issue with differing viewpoints.
You're imagining this. I have refuted each one of your viewpoints logically. Even the ones you deleted ;)
By the way, this thread is in breach of the ToU you agreed to when you signed up.
It will probably be locked like the last one.
Look, maybe if you hung around a little and got educated you would find the answers to your questions and find that the middle ground and non binary folk are very well represented, but that some of us do not fit into this catagory. This is why I don't identify as trangender, not because I have any problem with it, but because it can confuse the issue somewhat. I am a transsexual woman and completely within the binary.
Just try to avoid trying to tell anyone what or who they are and I can't see any problem. This awful community that you speak of is probably one of the most tolerant and open minded that you will find on the internet. ;)
QuoteThis awful community that you speak of is probably one of the most tolerant and open minded that you will find on the internet.
Hmm, you find the reaction to innocent observation and questions that was shown as tolerant and open minded? Haha. Maybe we are defining tolerant and open minded in different ways.
QuoteThis is no misunderstanding; you explicitly stated that "he" and "she" are not appropriate pronouns for trans people.
I said it "seemed" like it wasn't adequate. Like I said, I was just thinking things through out loud. Apparently by questioning a couple words it was taken as I was trying to question everyones identity or something.
The thing about getting angry and upset with someone simply questioning things... is that often the other party will match your irrational response with one of their own. And, of course, that will feed your own reaction and back and forth you will go. Seriously, we are adults....is simply discussing something calmly so hard?
QuoteRight, so we're going to need 98 different words to fit the percentage variables that don't fit into 'male' or 'female'.
Maybe that would be a bit too many. What do androgynous people call themselves? Is it "he" or "she"?
QuoteNo, your use of transphobic language is troubling.
I really have no idea what you are talking about. I have no problem with trans people (and actually identify as one). Again, look at the difference between a person being "insulting" and a person simply being "insulted".
QuoteBy the way, this thread is in breach of the ToU you agreed to when you signed up.
It will probably be locked like the last one.
Actually, I expect them to just ban me (it is the typical response to defiance or those who say things which others might not agree with).
The posts themselves are rational, calm, free of insults and actually kind of adult... the only real rule I am breaking is the "we don't want to hear what you are saying" rule. Which, is rule number 1 on forums most often.
Quote from: Fancyrabbit on January 09, 2011, 12:01:56 AM
Actually, I expect them to just ban me (it is the typical response to defiance or those who say things which others might not agree with).
So it is written, so let it be done.
Banned 180 days. This a notification to all. break the rules and face the consequences.