Susan's Place Transgender Resources

First we need to understand what 'privilege' is when specking in the context of minorities.
Let's start with the most obvious of privileges: Male Privilege.

Male Privilege is the direct effect of living in a patriarchal (male dominated) society. If we rewind time one century, we still see women in many countries fighting for what seems a basic and universal right - the right to vote. If we shift the time forwards to NOW and move our focus overseas, we see women who are not STILL allowed to vote and who are not allowed out in public without a male relative escort.

Shift our focus back to our wonderful Western nations and scratch the rosy surface away and we still find women woefully under-represented in positions of political and financial power. Go a little deeper and we find out that women have a one in four chance of being sexually assaulted by men. We also find that women are paid less in comparative jobs to men and female children are paid less attention in the class room.
I could go on and on, but instead I'll link you this list of male privileges (http://www.amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/).

So now that we have a basic idea of what 'privilege' is.
Basically it's a set of rights and special treatments that belong to the privileged group which cannot be accessed by the oppressed/non-privileged group. To the privileged group (men) these privileges seen 'normal' - something that they have always had and always will have, so they don't seem like 'privileges' or 'special treatment'.
But to the people who don't have these privileges and don't get this 'special treatment', they seem like pretty amazing things to have!
Or, in simpler terms, imagine we live on a cold, icy continent. By default, all men are given big warm windbreaker jackets lined with warm women's hair. Whereas the women are forced to have their heads shaved to make the jackets and are not given jackets of their own.
Not only is privilege something extra that one group possesses over another, it's something that comes at the expense of the oppressed group (i.e. men's institutionalised power comes from denying women power).

So how does cis privilege fit into this?
Well, the main perpetrators of trans oppression are cisgender people. Thankfully we're pretty bad at oppressing our own kind, so the sole source of oppression faced by trans people if from cis people.
For example, if I'm kicked out of my job after they find out I'm trans, it won't be a trans person making the decision, it will be a cis person. When I'm stabbed or bashed on the street, it won't be trans people doing it, it will be cis people. When I'm turned away from a nightclub because they don't want any '->-bleeped-<-s' confusing their male patrons, it won't be a trans bouncer denying me entry, it will be a cis bouncer.

So it's pretty safe to say that 99.9% of the oppression we face comes from cis people. Oppressors have a position of privilege because their power allows them to deny us basic things that cis people have, like being able to use the changing rooms or toilets in a department store, or gaining employment without being discriminated against. Cis privilege is invisible to most cis people, because these things are NORMAL to them - things that they have never questioned their right to have - like the right to piss and poop in the toilet that fits your gender expressions, or the right to not be fired for wearing clothes appropriate to your gender identity.
Here's a list of cis privileges (http://takesupspace.wordpress.com/cis-privilege-checklist/) that cis people take completely for granted, as they never have to fight for these things and have never been denied these things due to being trans.

And if your cis, you have these privileges whether you like them or not, just as men have male privilege whether they like it or not, white people have white privilege whether they like it or not, upper-class people have class privilege whether they like it or not, able-bodied people have able-bodied privilege whether they like it or not, etc, etc.

So if you're cis and speaking in a trans space, please, remember that you speak from a position of privilege and try not to shout down the trans people when they are pointing out your oppressive behaviour.
Because when you do this you are asserting your cis privilege and it is oppressing trans people further.

Sweet! I pretty much agree with Cait and the list.

To give a shorter version (totally consistent with what is written above):
My definition is that cis-privilege is when you take something for granted or think that something is "no big deal" because it is not the kind of thing that ever affects or hurts people who are not trans.

Here is a longer illustration of the bathroom example:

Many cis people don't realize that having shared stall (and urinal) bathrooms that are labeled/designated Men's and Women's rather than having single-stall rooms that are unisex is a problem for trans people, because they have "cis privilege" in not needing a bathroom arrangement that is different from the usual. Not all cis people are in this group. People with disabilities, people who dress in gender non-conforming ways, single parents raising opposite sex children - they are all aware that sex binary group bathrooms can be a problem. Not all cis people are oblivious to the privilege of bathroom access, because some cis people are ALSO denied access to bathrooms that match their needs. Those who are disabled would claim that people who are able-bodied and do not rely on the assistance of others or devices are blind to the problems they have in bathrooms. Because there is such a thing as able-bodied privilege. And so on.

But most people who don't have a reason to care don't really think about this from the perspective of someone who doesn't have an appropriate bathroom to use - or who is made uncomfortable or even threatened with violence or arrest - from using the "right" bathroom. An example of cis privilege is when co-workers expect trans people to use the wrong restroom after they are full-time or expecting trans people to use an inconvenient/out of the way bathroom, because what's the big deal anyway? Of course, it's not a big deal to them, because they don't know how it feels to be presented with the dilemma of not having ANY safe bathroom to use! They view needing access to restrooms as trans people asking for special treatment, when they are clearly asking for the same "normal" as everyone else - to be able to use appropriate toilets conveniently.

The only big issue on which I think I disagree with Cait is that I don't view every offensive, insulting, rude or ignorant comment coming from a cis person as 'cis privilege.' I think cis privilege is when you turn a blind eye to some specific right or opportunity or experience that is challenging or oppressive for trans people. There are a whole bunch of ways in which cis people can insult trans people - whether through malicious intent OR mere ignorance - that I don't think constitutes an exercise of cis privilege. Trans people ALSO can oppress one another, act in offensive, insulting, rude or ignorant ways. So I would call out these statements for what they are without assuming that it is because of cis privilege or an exercise of such.

Quote from: Sean on January 27, 2011, 03:09:59 PM
The only big issue on which I think I disagree with Cait is that I don't view every offensive, insulting, rude or ignorant comment coming from a cis person as 'cis privilege.'

Yeah, that's partially a personal demon I have from violence at the hands of cis people.
I recognise this and I'm working to remedy it, but it's going to take a lot of positive experiences at the hands of cis people to undo that damage - and such positive experiences seem to be bypassing me.

Never had problems with cis people.  Maybe its where i transitioned and live, people just dont seem to walk around with sticks up their butts and chips on their shoulders here, unlike other places i have been.  I also havent heard of any TS related violence here on the news or papers for since i have been here 10+ yrs. 

Quote from: Izumi on January 27, 2011, 03:26:59 PM
Never had problems with cis people.  Maybe its where i transitioned and live, people just dont seem to walk around with sticks up their butts and chips on their shoulders here, unlike other places i have been.  I also havent heard of any TS related violence here on the news or papers for since i have been here 10+ yrs.

Or luck. Let's hope you're not the first statistic in your area.
The cynic in me says that it's more likely that trans related violence isn't reported by your local media, as it's swept under the carpet and ignored.

I agree with a lot of what you have said Vexing.  While I have never been a victim of any violence or even confronted.  I can understand that some have, and some will continue to be victims.

Cis-privilege is the main driving force that is behind any legislation or speech that is directly or indirectly at the LGBT community.  I grew up during the civil rights era.  I remember Selma or the day the governor of Alabama sent troops to a high school to keep blacks from going to a white school.  That was white-privilege.  Eventually it was struck down.  But now there cis-privilege.  And even our LGB brothers and sisters have it.  Sure they may not show it, but they have it.

So what to do?  Many are or want to be stealth.  That is totally up to you.  But we will not ever be considered normal without our own civil rights marches.  The only way our Black brothers and sisters got to have that cis-privilege was they stood up and said "Here I am and I am just as human as you.".  Until we do that we will never really be equal.  You can live your life in total stealth and never would any one guess you were not really cis.  But in the back of your mind is that worry that someone will find out.

Stand and be counted.  Step out of the shadows and let the world see our numbers.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on January 27, 2011, 03:50:44 PM
So what to do?  Many are or want to be stealth.  That is totally up to you.  But we will not ever be considered normal without our own civil rights marches. 

One of the problems with being trans is that we are such an utterly tiny minority. Something like 0.2 to 0.4 percent of the population. This makes it hard for us to stage civil rights marches in significant numbers, even if all the stealthies step out of the shadows. The Gs and the Ls make up something like 11-13 percent of their respective genders, so it was easier for them to congregate, march and be taken seriously.
We're crippled by our small numbers as well as those of us who vanish sometime after transition.

cis privilege has not as much to do with gender as it is power over others.

privilege by definition is a form of power or ability, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. hence those who claim cis privilege are merely abusing power to control others, which is one of the primary causes of violation against the rights of others.

I don't think there is a magical civil rights utopia to be gained by all the 'stealthies' coming out of the closet. I do think that advances in technology and globalization can help make up for the lack of a critical mass of trans people in any one specific location.

I also think things are shifting. There will be ups and downs as trans becomes more known. On the whole, though, I think it's moving in the right direction, albeit VERY slowly and incrementally.

I hang with a fairly "privileged" crowd, if you'll excuse the term. People with all the advantages when it comes to socio-economics. Also, there are a disproportionate amount of blue staters, as we call it in the States. And when I tell people that it is perfectly legal in most places to fire someone for being transsexual or that many transsexuals can not work because they do not have proper legal ID to do so (and can't obtain it), they are SHOCKED and HORRIFIED.

These are not people who don't look outside the four corners of their own world. These are fairly educated people who often volunteer not just their money, but also their time, to all sorts of causes. These are not people who ignore the news (well, if you count Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert, at least) or are not well-read.

These are cis people who have cis privilege, and they haven't had any special reason to *think* about trans people or trans issues. It isn't something they have routinely seen in the media they consume or in the people they know, at least not until more recently.

I think we are only beginning to see who the trans allies are, because we have many natural allies who simply have not even been aware of our existence and what our main problems are. And I think we are heading into a time when we can have "stealthies" (ha! love the term!) advocating for trans rights too, because guess what? You don't have to care about trans stuff to want equal opportunities for people with differences. Not everyone is cut out to be an activist nor is everyone cut out to be a role model. There should be a path for those whose only interest is in living an out trans life, and there should be a path for those whose interest is in advocating or working for trans rights, even if they themselves do not identify as trans. And all sorts of other paths in between or on the sides.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I do believe it gets better...

Cis-gendered people believe that they have a right to question your gender identity, and they get all huffy if you refuse to answer their long list of questions.   Their attitude is often 'so you say that your are a man/woman?   Prove it to MY satisfaction'.    Over at that infamous womens' forum I frequented they they felt that they had a right to grant or revoke female status from me at will.  If I pleased them I got the occasional 'she' and 'her', but if they disagreed with me out came 'him' and 'his'.  I was so desperate for the approval of these genetic women that I was prepared to put up with any abuse from them.  I was accused of 'having a split personality' and 'being passive-aggressive', I was also subject to ad-hominum attacks - 'oh I can't take anything you say seriously'.
Julia Serano writes that cis-gendered psychiatrists formulate theories about transsexuality while ignoring the views and experience of transsexuals themselves.   They prefer to cling to their beautiful theories then to listen to potentially ugly facts.  Serano also writes that it wasn't that long ago that therapists etc expected their mtf clients to turn up in a dress wearing make-up and saying that they were attracted to men.   Those who didn't comply to cisgendered male stereotypes of women often found themselves labelled 'fetishistic', and 'perverts', by the patriarchal medical community.   It is this profound belief that a cis-gendered 'expert' knows more about transsexuality than an actual transsexual that we find so naturally offensive.

Quote from: Stephanie on January 27, 2011, 05:46:09 PM
Cis-gendered people believe that they have a right to question your gender identity, and they get all huffy if you refuse to answer their long list of questions.   Their attitude is often 'so you say that your are a man/woman?   Prove it to MY satisfaction'.

Not only that, if you tell them their behaviour is wrong and harming you as a trans person, they will then demand to be educated as to WHY it is wrong before they will stop doing it (or argue that it ISN'T wrong and that their cis perspective is more relevant than yours).
It's like screaming at someone to stop punching you in the face and the person punching you demands an explanation as to WHY they should stop punching you in the face - while they continue to punch you in the face.

QuoteIf I pleased them I got the occasional 'she' and 'her', but if they disagreed with me out came 'him' and 'his'.

And on top of that, they expect a Gold Star every time they DO use the correct pronoun, as though they have been a Good and Decent Person™ by giving you the rights that you ALREADY DESERVE as a human being.
I'm tempted to go over to this ->-bleeped-<-hole of a forum and rark them up good and proper.
PM the address if you like.

QuoteIt is this profound belief that a cis-gendered 'expert' knows more about transsexuality than an actual transsexual that we find so naturally offensive.

Amen.
The people who claim "My perspective on trans issues - as a cis person - is MORE relevant than your perspective on trans issues as a trans person." need to die in a fire.

My only problem with the Cis privilege list is that it effectively means that, despite a brief anomalous period of a few years in my late teens and early twenties, I am, and always have been Cis (by those definitions at least) because I would absolutely claim all of those privileges for myself.

I even skipped all the medical obstacles by finding a doctor willing to somewhat disregard normal procedures.

I know I had an exceptionally easy time of it compared to 99% of others, but I still maintain that I have a perfectly legitimate ability to be supportive and indeed to understand the plight of people whose lives have followed the more traditional path. I don't think you always have to suffer a thing fully to understand what it must be like.

Quote from: Sean on January 27, 2011, 05:45:13 PM
These are cis people who have cis privilege, and they haven't had any special reason to *think* about trans people or trans issues. It isn't something they have routinely seen in the media they consume or in the people they know, at least not until more recently.

EDUCATION.  This is the reason why we should educate them.  I shouldn't be expected to know the details of what is going on in every single relevant political issue taking place in the different parts of the world. 

I agree that cis privilege exists.  But I am not completely sold to the idea as to when we can just invoke it.

Here is one example:  my friend who went to Bangkok with me was a cisfemale friend.  She volunteered do be there for me and basically offer her support.  I didn't ask my trans support group sisters because a lot of them were not supportive of my SRS ("you don't need a vagina to validate your womanhood" from a sister who had massive FFS procedures and BA).

Isn't it unfair that because my friend was born with a vagina and identifies as a woman would be several times more likely to offend us simply because of her cis privilege?  Even though she means well?  While my trans sister is *gasp* less likely to commit a faux-pas simply because she is a transgender person?  An example:  one member b*tched at a late transitioner member because she thinks that is a form of deception (you shouldn't be allowed to have a family then transition later on in your life).  While still a transgender person, isn't that also offensive?

And the more important question is, if I was born with a vagina in this life, would I even care about the transsexual cause as much as I care about it now?  Honestly, maybe not.

So when some cisgender people are embracing our cause and make a few stumbles here and there, do we just attack them?  I don't think so. 

In the same way that when a transperson here seeks some answers to some "stupid questions", no one should be allowed to speak down to them.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 27, 2011, 06:29:44 PM
My only problem with the Cis privilege list is that it effectively means that, despite a brief anomalous period of a few years in my late teens and early twenties, I am, and always have been Cis (by those definitions at least) because I would absolutely claim all of those privileges for myself.

I even skipped all the medical obstacles by finding a doctor willing to somewhat disregard normal procedures.

I know I had an exceptionally easy time of it compared to 99% of others, but I still maintain that I have a perfectly legitimate ability to be supportive and indeed to understand the plight of people whose lives have followed the more traditional path. I don't think you always have to suffer a thing fully to understand what it must be like.

Privilege, or lack of privilege, isn't distributed evenly - and there are 'intersections' of privilege which complicate issues (like being a white trans woman as opposed to being a black trans woman). Intersectionality is important to remember and it applies even within the trans community - passing privilege being one example.
However, there are still plenty of variables that apply to you, Jenny. It is still on record that you were born male, for example. Being Outed will instantly lose you most of your passing privileges.
The privileges you enjoy as an early-transitioning, passing trans woman can be snatched away in an instant.
The same cannot happen to a cis person.

Quote from: AlexCallende on January 27, 2011, 06:32:16 PM
EDUCATION.  This is the reason why we should educate them.  I shouldn't be expected to know the details of what is going on in every single relevant political issue taking place in the different parts of the world.

While education is great, cis people cannot DEMAND that we educate them.
Especially if we turn around and say "Sorry, I don't feel like educating you today, I'm out of spoons (http://www.butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory-written-by-christine-miserandino/)."
If they continue to pester you after the fact, you have every right to tell them to eff off.

QuoteSo when some cisgender people are embracing our cause and make a few stumbles here and there, do we just attack them?  I don't think so.

The things that cis people do and say can HURT.
REALLY REALLY hurt.
That they do it from ignorance doesn't make it hurt any less, and when people have been horribly hurt, they don't always react logically or reasonably.
If a cis person tells me that I'm just a effing ugly mutilated man with a scrotum-sock sex-hole and unnatural hormone-grown breasts, then I can't guarantee that I'm going to give them a calm and reasoned rebuttal.
I might get irrationally angry and try to verbally tear them a new one.
I have every right to do that, no matter what their intention was or how ignorant they are.

However, the real issue is when they argue that they didn't do anything wrong and that I have NO RIGHT to be angry.
THAT is compounding their mistake.
The correct thing to do, in my opinion, if you are a cis person who is confronted by an angry trans person who feels hurt is to apologise and back off.

QuoteIn the same way that when a transperson here seeks some answers to some "stupid questions", no one should be allowed to speak down to them.

Oh no. I hold trans people to a MUCH higher standard than cis people. They get away with even less by virtue of having the same experiences as me.

Quote from: AlexCallende on January 27, 2011, 06:32:16 PM
So when some cisgender people are embracing our cause and make a few stumbles here and there, do we just attack them?  I don't think so. 

This.

Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 27, 2011, 05:55:49 PM
Not only that, if you tell them their behaviour is wrong and harming you as a trans person, they will then demand to be educated as to WHY it is wrong before they will stop doing it (or argue that it ISN'T wrong and that their cis perspective is more relevant than yours).
It's like screaming at someone to stop punching you in the face and the person punching you demands an explanation as to WHY they should stop punching you in the face - while they continue to punch you in the face.

And this.

Both are right. And there is a tension here. I'm a fairly diplomatic guy, and I find navigating this tension frustrating.

I think a big part of the problem here is simply pride and ego. All too often, it seems like when a faux-pas, insult, or otherwise troublesome statment or attitude is explained to a cis person, their response is to demand that trans people PROVE it is offensive, insulting, a faux-pas or otherwise an extension of cis privilege. And then even when a fair number of people all chime in to identify the problem and act as trans 101 educators, so to speak, the cis person decides to continue to defend their use of something problematic, because they didn't know better, still don't view it as problematic, blah blah....refuse to cave to pressure or accept that words have meaning/effect, etc.

Honestly, I think it is about being defensive and feeling too prideful to want to admit that they made a mistake, for whatever reason. It is hard to say, "You're right. I shouldn't have said that." Or "I didn't know this X was offensive. I will rephrase my thoughts." People feel personally attacked - whether they have been or not - and get entrenched in defending a 'bad' position. No one is mad at a cis person who stumbles. I hope people aren't. But if a cis person is going to view any correction as an "attack" - or focus on the most 'argumentative' response among a LITANY of more polite responses & corrections to show that they were being attacked - then we have a compounding problem. You are taking a problematic viewpoint or statement and then rather than retreating from it, you are defending it, because of ego, pride, and sometimes, because the rebuke was just too strong. And then, it is not uncommon for the cis person to insist that they were correct in using a bad phrase or term or saying something inappropriate or transphobic or whatever, because THEY don't have a problem with it, and clearly, trans people are just defensive, argumentative, blah, blah.

It detracts from the original point, which may have really just been about education and igorance and it turns into a referenderum of the PROOF or the quality of the response of the trans person, simply because of defensiveness and a failure to admit that someone was wrong.

Quote from: perlita85 on January 27, 2011, 07:03:27 PM
This cis privilege if it really exist

Of course it exists. If you want to deny that it exists, you might as well deny deny that white privilege exists.

Quotethen it would disappear when you are no longer "read," right? How can anybody discriminate if they cannot identify as trans?

Read my response to Jenny, above.

As a "cis" person, but a member of another minority community who deals with the issue of privilege in a different context, I absolutely think that the minute one of us ("cis" people) decides that we have the right to direct, lead, dictate, preach, etc, the non-cis world, we have absolutely crossed into the territory of oppressor.

That doesn't mean we have to agree with every non-cis (sorry, I don't know a good term here, hopefully people know what I mean - and educate me on the right term) person.  We won't because there isn't agreement among non-cis people about things.  But it's not our place to direct or pursuade even in these things.  To be frank: our opinion doesn't matter.

What I can do is to try to support the people I love and care about, and to try to figure out what areas have general agreement among people directly involved.  (a spouse is not directly involved - we're involved, but one removed from the person actually directly involved)  And I can support those things.

Too often, when people are told they are ignorant or prejudiced or bigoted or whatever, they hear instead, "You are a horrible, awful person."  That's not what is said (and when it *is* said that way, we would be best to realize that the person is likely looking at one part of our life which *is* ugly -and- likely has been very hurt by a group we're part of).  Having privilege or even doing things that harm a minority is *not* the same as being an awful person.  Many very wonderful and nice people have racial prejudices, for instance.  The prejudices of course are ugly and horrible, but that doesn't define a whole person.  So if someone points out to me that I've said or done something hurtful, ugly, or prejudiced, particularly someone who is in the minority that my statements or acts were directed at, *I* need to realize that good people can do wrong things and not feel that my whole identity is being challenged.  I can continue to be a good person by recognizing my mistake and taking the appropriate action for the future.  Or I can be an awful person by denying, defending, and fighting.

Certainly reverse discrimination and reverse prejudice is always possible.  Not everyone who is not in my minority a person who hates me, oppresses me, or is horrible.  But because the minority has little power to actually cause harm as a result of this reverse discrimination, it is NOT the same as discrimination directed at my minority.  A trans person who tells me that "cis people are horrible" can't hurt in the same way that a cis person who says "trans people are attacking the order of things and are part of the enemy's war against God."  People aren't dieing because some trans people say cis people are horrible.  Yes, I personally, in my minority community, try to be fair and just towards everyone.  And all prejudice - even reverse prejudice - is ugly.  I've seen plenty of people in my minority community blame every bad thing that happens to them on majority privilege ("I got fired because I'm disabled and those non-disabled people are..." when really they were fired because they stole from the company or some other legitimate, non-prejudiced reason).  But most of the time when people talk about reverse prejudice or reverse discrimination, they are actually saying, through code words such as reverse discrimination, "Because you do something ugly that doesn't really affect the non-minority, I can do something ugly that does hurt the minority."  That's not cool, even if you thought two equal wrongs made a right.  The minority simply doesn't have the power to make the majority's life hell.  But the majority does have the power to ruin the minority's life.  The same type of action taken by the minority, because of lack of privilege, has less impact as that taken by the majority.  It's not "fair" - which is why discrimination is so much worse than reverse discrimination, even if both are ugly.

Finally, it's possible to lack privilege and hold privilege at the same time.  I have cis privilege.  I do not have the privilege of non-disabled people.  Some people who lack cis privilege have the privilege of non-disabled people.  It's all dependent on circumstance as to which privilege(s) are relevant.  But just because I'm a member of one minority doesn't mean I can't be prejudiced or harm another minority (witness what physically disabled people do to mentally disabled people - statements like "I don't have a normal body, but I have a normal mind" to validate their existence while minimizing the value of someone else; or how too often T is discriminated against by LGB groups).

So, I'd say to other cis people here: don't take things too personally, but learn from criticism.  It's the mark of a good person.  You want to support people?  Well, let them tell you how to support them.

i completely agree. why don't we make the bigots write this list and sign at the bottom as punishment?

Quote from: . on January 27, 2011, 06:39:30 PM
Privilege, or lack of privilege, isn't distributed evenly - and there are 'intersections' of privilege which complicate issues (like being a white trans woman as opposed to being a black trans woman). Intersectionality is important to remember and it applies even within the trans community - passing privilege being one example.
However, there are still plenty of variables that apply to you, Jenny. It is still on record that you were born male, for example. Being Outed will instantly lose you most of your passing privileges.
The privileges you enjoy as an early-transitioning, passing trans woman can be snatched away in an instant.
The same cannot happen to a cis person.

Thanks to some friends in "useful" places in the UK establishment you would actually have to work quite hard to uncover either my birth record, or indeed my early medical records or school records. They ahem...  all seem to have suffered damage or "partial loss," in some cases even before the digital age had begun, and the replacement ones that you can now find strangely seem to make no mention of me as anything other than female. ;D So yes I can certainly be outed, but finding any solid legal proof would actually take a fair bit more work than you might think. Sometimes in life it's not what you know, but WHO you know that makes a difference... :laugh:

There are certainly simple medical procedures that would out me very quickly I know that.

Thing is, at the moment, I don't care, because it has always been my experience that when I out myself or indeed someone that knows about me outs me it changes nothing. Now, ok, that is my good luck. I've no doubt that there are places I could go where that luck might run out if I were outed. I have the fortune to exist in the upper(ish) social echelons of a fairly liberal and accepting country. If I moved, or my social status collapsed, I might have to be a deal more careful.

So yeah overall I accept that cis privilege exists. I just don't see it as such a big deal, I guess because I have honestly never really experienced what that lack of it might feel like.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 28, 2011, 03:16:39 AM
Thanks to some friends in "useful" places in the UK establishment you would actually have to work quite hard to uncover either my birth record, or indeed my early medical records or school records. They ahem...  all seem to have suffered damage or "partial loss," in some cases even before the digital age had begun, and the replacement ones that you can now find strangely seem to make no mention of me as anything other than female. ;D So yes I can certainly be outed, but finding any solid legal proof would actually take a fair bit more work than you might think. Sometimes in life it's not what you know, but WHO you know that makes a difference... :laugh:

There are certainly simple medical procedures that would out me very quickly I know that.

Thing is, at the moment, I don't care, because it has always been my experience that when I out myself or indeed someone that knows about me outs me it changes nothing. Now, ok, that is my good luck. I've no doubt that there are places I could go where that luck might run out if I were outed. I have the fortune to exist in the upper(ish) social echelons of a fairly liberal and accepting country. If I moved, or my social status collapsed, I might have to be a deal more careful.

So yeah overall I accept that cis privilege exists. I just don't see it as such a big deal, I guess because I have honestly never really experienced what that lack of it might feel like.

Goodbye Jenny.

Quote from: . on January 28, 2011, 04:03:33 AM
Goodbye Jenny.

???

I'm not planning on going anywhere. I'm sure it is possible to exist in the same space even if with a slightly different POV.

Somebody here wrote that she was presenting as male at work and hadn't yet been 'diagnosed'.* This is an example of cisgendered privilege.  We have to prove that we are not suffering from either a mental illness or 'fetishism', before the most basic elements of transition can begin.   Self-diagnosis based upon years of feelings etc counts for very little,  you must be 'diagnosed' by a professional who's entire understanding comes not from years of lived personal experience, but comes solely from theory (with a hidden agenda) and from textbooks!   This is a clear example of someone who feels that their expert personal knowledge is easily trumped by someone who has read a couple of books and one or two journal articles.


* Diagnosed as a genuine bona-fide transsexual by a member of the medical community.

This is a little off topic but you might find it helpful when you are tempted to think of psychologists/therapists as all-knowing little gods.    I did two full years of psychology(along with my major history) and I can tell you that the staff in the Psychology department were weird - not in a good way - bullies, and neurotics.     Dr X was considered an expert on 'adult bullying', he had written a couple of books and presented research papers at academic conferences in his field, yet he was the rudest, cheekiest, most insensitive, and dismissive person I have ever met.  Late arrivals at lectures/tutorials were often greeted with a 'I am so glad that you could join us'.  When anyone asked a question he didn't want to deal with he would dismiss their question with 'Oh you should be familiar with that by now', and ' I am not here to hold your hand you know?'   He made students feel small, stupid and beneath his notice, this is what an adult bully does.   This came from a man who formulated coping strategies for those suffering from adult bullying!   Here was a psychology Ph.d who was completely oblivious of his  actions and how those actions negatively affected others.    Dr X was a classic case of 'psychologist heal thy self'.  The expert on adult bullying was a bully himself, what terrible irony!   Drs A and B, both female, talked down to female students continously and shamelessly and treated them as if they were in junior high.   A newly minted Ph.d couldn't stop talking about her personal life in tutorials.    I also noticed that the whole department was obsessed with theory.   If something came to their attention their reflexive attitude was 'how does this new information fit in with existing theory?'   There is nothing wrong with doing this as such, it is when you automatically reject information because it may question or undermine established theory.  When you start dismissing and/or ignoring inconvient facts/evidence you cease to be a scholar and become a priest defending the dogmas of your religion.
So perhaps your psychologist/therapist is not seeing you as a individual, but as a 'patient' who conforms or doesn't conform to varying degrees to the beautiful and much loved theories of the psychological community regarding transsexuality. 

I'd just like to point out that some of us found ways to get all the way to our SRS without the tiresome need for diagnosis or indeed waffling to any psycholgists. :D Yes it was nearly 30 years ago, but I imagine that it could still be done if someone was determined enough. (Oh and for the record I didn't go to no back street clinic either. I just paid a lot of money!)

Okay I'm a little confused, I can't and won't argue with the cis or male privilege thing but am unsure as what it means in a practical sense. A trans woman could argue that a cis woman should not comment on trans subjects as they are cis and therefore the evil oppressor. A cis woman could argue that the trans woman should have nothing to say about being a woman as the trans woman grew up with all of that lovely lovely male privilege and therefore she is the evil oppressor etc....... Then a black intersex woman comes in and.......well you get the picture. Also, do all men, cis people etc..get the same level of privilege or do gay men get less than middle class straight men, in fact, do third world gay men in Uganda, living in fear for their lives have less privilege than white middle class American women?

I quite frankly can't be bothered to do these kind of calculations when talking to people, so I kind of wing it on a take people as I find them basis and never assume that they have more privilege than me, if they do then good for them, it's not really their fault. I quite like the line about never judging someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Simplistic I know but that's how I see it. I'm sure that Cait will have a different view and can out argue me any time that she feels like it as frankly, she's a lot smarter than me.

Hang on a minute, Isn't that privilege too? ;)

Sadly, there are these privileges, and I guess I have cis privilege, but I'm not white or male, so I don't have male privilege or white privilege, if there is such a thing.  I know people who have died young.  I know people who have lost children. 

I think there are all sorts of privilege, but what does it really mean and how does it affect us?  A lot of transgendered folks here have said that if they could change things, they would not choose to NOT be transgendered, because they wouldn't be who they are.  So, does this mean you've given up the privilege?  I don't know.  It's all so complicated and can't be resolved easily.

I think we all have bad and good in our lives.  Some lose their young children.  Some die young. And a lot of horrible things.  I think being transgendered isn't ideal for a lot of people, but it's not the most horrible thing in the world, and can have positives.  I think this site has a lot of wonderful people here and maybe it's because you are transgendered.  Maybe you are better people.  I don't know if you can change your true nature, but I think you can become better people depending on your circumstances.

I do feel that it can be harder from the get-go for transgendered people, but there are so many variables.  My life totally sucks right now.  I'm sure many of your lives are way better.  I don't know if I could go through transition, but I don't have dysphoria, so I don't know what I'd be willing to go through.  I do know it's got to take a lot courage and strength.

I watched 127 Hours recently, the story about the guy who cut off his arm to survive, and I wondered if I would have the courage to do the same thing.  I still am not sure about this, though I would guess that I don't.  I still think about it and try to hope that I would.  He is now very successful, has written a book, has a movie about him, is married with a new baby.  If he didn't do this courageous act, he wouldn't have any of this. 

I hope I'd have the courage, but don't know.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 28, 2011, 05:41:15 PM
I'd just like to point out that some of us found ways to get all the way to our SRS without the tiresome need for diagnosis or indeed waffling to any psycholgists. :D Yes it was nearly 30 years ago, but I imagine that it could still be done if someone was determined enough. (Oh and for the record I didn't go to no back street clinic either. I just paid a lot of money!)

It's not that hard tbh. Dr Curtis isn't a Psychologist and you can pretty much go from his care to surgery. Or you can self med and then sweet talk one of the Thai surgeons into giving you a quickie assessment. I struggle to understand all of this anger towards 'gatekeepers' as the gates are wide open these days.

Quote from: MillieB on January 28, 2011, 05:59:06 PM
Okay I'm a little confused, I can't and won't argue with the cis or male privilege thing but am unsure as what it means in a practical sense. A trans woman could argue that a cis woman should not comment on trans subjects as they are cis and therefore the evil oppressor. A cis woman could argue that the trans woman should have nothing to say about being a woman as the trans woman grew up with all of that lovely lovely male privilege and therefore she is the evil oppressor etc....... Then a black intersex woman comes in and.......well you get the picture. Also, do all men, cis people etc..get the same level of privilege or do gay men get less than middle class straight men, in fact, do third world gay men in Uganda, living in fear for their lives have less privilege than white middle class American women?

I quite frankly can't be bothered to do these kind of calculations when talking to people, so I kind of wing it on a take people as I find them basis and never assume that they have more privilege than me, if they do then good for them, it's not really their fault. I quite like the line about never judging someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Simplistic I know but that's how I see it. I'm sure that Cait will have a different view and can out argue me any time that she feels like it as frankly, she's a lot smarter than me.

Hang on a minute, Isn't that privilege too? ;)

Hahahaha!  Love this comment, MillieB!

Honestly, I've done away with this notions and instead, I just try to judge the situation base on how I see them.  If my friend asked me some questions, and I know she was being sincere, she can say anything.  I WOULDN'T WANT MY FRIENDS TO FEEL LIKE THEY ARE CONSTANTLY WALKING ON THIN ICE AROUND ME.

The same applies to other people.  Who's to say that we're not being prejudiced when we walk around dealing with people thinking these CIS people are just out to get us.  That's also not fair.  And if we hate this cis privilege so much, how come a lot of us would like to be in the image of CIS-ness (read:  passable and in stealth)?!  There's nothing wrong with wanting to be in stealth, is there?!

I'm repeating myself here when I say this:  I think it is a feeling of having the privilege on its own when we  just assume people should know everything about transsexuality and GID. 

Now I understand the sensitivity of the issue to everyone of us here.  I have been a victim of CIS privilege myself.  But to bash our CIS family?!  Please!!!

What we should be aiming for is that for a day to come when we can walk around the neighborhood, and Mrs. Smith is not bothered that Mr. Jones is now Mrs. Jones.  And she looks fabulous next to her spouse, Mrs. Black-Jones as they walk to the country club for afternoon tea with Mr. Smith and their kids.

Quote from: rejennyrated on January 28, 2011, 05:41:15 PM
I'd just like to point out that some of us found ways to get all the way to our SRS without the tiresome need for diagnosis or indeed waffling to any psycholgists. :D Yes it was nearly 30 years ago, but I imagine that it could still be done if someone was determined enough. (Oh and for the record I didn't go to no back street clinic either. I just paid a lot of money!)

I think two months from my initial appointment to getting my hrt scrip is fairly good going. I may even walk away with my first letter in a couple of weeks time.

Now just to raise the money, who's up for a crime spree?

You be Clint Eastwood and I'll be Clyde. What bank would notice that?

Quote from: AlexCallende on January 29, 2011, 01:07:33 AM
Hahahaha!  Love this comment, MillieB!

Honestly, I've done away with this notions and instead, I just try to judge the situation base on how I see them.  If my friend asked me some questions, and I know she was being sincere, she can say anything.  I WOULDN'T WANT MY FRIENDS TO FEEL LIKE THEY ARE CONSTANTLY WALKING ON THIN ICE AROUND ME.

The same applies to other people.  Who's to say that we're not being prejudiced when we walk around dealing with people thinking these CIS people are just out to get us.  That's also not fair.  And if we hate this cis privilege so much, how come a lot of us would like to be in the image of CIS-ness (read:  passable and in stealth)?!  There's nothing wrong with wanting to be in stealth, is there?!

I'm repeating myself here when I say this:  I think it is a feeling of having the privilege on its own when we  just assume people should know everything about transsexuality and GID. 

Now I understand the sensitivity of the issue to everyone of us here.  I have been a victim of CIS privilege myself.  But to bash our CIS family?!  Please!!!

I agree with the statements in bold, and pretty much the rest as well. 

My cis-gendered friends have all been wonderfully accepting of me and don't treat me any different than before they knew my status, except by changing what pronouns they use--they now use the proper pronouns despite how I look.  I could be lucky, or I'm just careful who I tell it to.  I figure if telling someone won't do any good, then I don't tell them.  If it'll do some good, then I'll tell them.  I've been asked to facilitate a meeting for the local LGBT+ group I belong to so more information on the T can be given out and so there will be more of an understanding.  And who asked me to do this?  My cis-gender friends.

And as far as I see it, almost every single minority and majority or what-have-you have their own privileges in some way or another.  There are scholarships out there where you have to be black (or "African-American") to get or you have to be some other minority.  However, you can't have any scholarships out there for if you're white because that's "racist".  You can't say you love being white without being called "racist" either, but you can say you love being black or whatever else and it's not racist.  And so forth and so forth.  Pretty much every group has some sort of privilege that is denied another group.

Quote from: Artisan010 on January 29, 2011, 10:28:04 AM
I'd like to add that all  rights come with concurrent responsibilities

Requirement of some form of "proofs" is a responsibility in order to obtain many rights in this country -- not just trans gender rights.  We can all recall needing to assert a positive right when proof has been required which we felt was burdensome, unnecessary or otherwise invalid.  I have been required to show proofs, and continuing medical proofs, when claiming a right because it was my responsibility to do so even though I disagreed or felt that sufficient proof was provided.

The rights that are bestowed (trans rights) also protect you from those who would seek to exploit those rights.  Justice is to be blind.  Blind even when bestowing rights, which are different from the subjective "privilege." 

I do not deny that inequalities exist and will continue to exist, not only for the trans community.   I sympathize because medical proofs can be invasive.  But look at those who are still trying to receive benefits and coverage from the government after being harmed (or have since died) by their work on the rescue and recovery of 9/11.  Collectively we know that they are entitled to some rights of compensation, yet each individual has been continuously asked to provide his or her own medical proofs.   This protects their ultimate goal of a right to recognition and compensation, while preventing those who would take advantage of the right.

I am trying to show a gender blind example where rights can be obtained after medical proof while fully acknowledging that those who make the determination as to proof may not be an expert in the field, but are held out as experts by those with the privilege to do so.

It's never a perfect system, but it's the one we have (in he U.S.)

Requiring that people who want to be compensated for their medical bills show proof of these bills to substantiate their claims is not remotely analagous to the kind of 'proofs' people are talking about needing to show in order to get ACCESS to medical care for gender identity related treatment. This is not about being compensated or having someone else pay for things. It is about whether you are DENIED treatment in the first place.

When people start DENYING medical care to people who have breathing troubles, PTSD, and other related long term effects from 9/11, then your analogy would begin to make sense.

Beyond that, I want to point out to the people here who are making the argument: "everyone has some privilege and some lack of privilege, so we're ALL privileged and we're ALL non-privileged so I treat people like an individual":

People SHOULD be treated as individuals and not as data points in categories. However, the fact that SOME people have some privileges and other people have OTHER privileges doesn't meant that understanding these privileges is useless or that there isn't more work to be done to advocates for the rights of any one specific group. I think there is a lot of naivitee present in the argument of "We're all special anyway" because it is often presented as a way of deligitimizing the requests of non-privileged peoples of all different categories.

Quote from: sonopoly on January 28, 2011, 06:00:05 PM

I watched 127 Hours recently, the story about the guy who cut off his arm to survive, and I wondered if I would have the courage to do the same thing.  I still am not sure about this, though I would guess that I don't.  I still think about it and try to hope that I would.  He is now very successful, has written a book, has a movie about him, is married with a new baby.  If he didn't do this courageous act, he wouldn't have any of this. 

I hope I'd have the courage, but don't know.

And while it's TOTALLY a tangent, I want to disagree with this. People are acting like Aron Ralston is some kind of hero or courageous, when the truth is that there is nothing to be role modeled about what happened to him. He made mistakes that even novice mountain climbers know better than - such as pushing on past his water supply, going alone and NOT TELLING ANYONE WHERE HE WAS GOING, etc. People like Aron Raslton die every year. In his case, he got lucky. There is nothing heroic about putting yourself in danger in a totally avoidable accident. Did it take smarts and guts to survive in the aftermath? Sure. It did.

When I look at Aron Ralston, the lesson I learn is:
- how can I be smarter and not put myself in jeopardy (yes, I have violated the not telling anyone where I was going rule before)
- when faced with a crisis of MY OWN CREATION, will I have the fortitude to carry on AND would I have the ability to own up to my own mistakes and recognize that I have made a mistake that HAS had a devastating consequence and could have been worse.

I think that relates to this conversation, to the extent we've talked about people who make mistakes and how they recover from them.

Quote from: Artisan010 on January 29, 2011, 10:28:04 AM
Requirement of some form of "proofs" is a responsibility in order to obtain many rights in this country -- not just trans gender rights.  We can all recall needing to assert a positive right when proof has been required which we felt was burdensome, unnecessary or otherwise invalid.  I have been required to show proofs, and continuing medical proofs, when claiming a right because it was my responsibility to do so even though I disagreed or felt that sufficient proof was provided.

If I were to want hormones (and seeking medical help to do it appropriately), why is that treated differently than any one of 1000 other procedures?  For instance, I can have back surgery that may result in complications that paralyze me without needing a shrink to say, "Yes, this person really is sure they want to do this."  Or I can have a plastic surgeon change my nose - despite the fact I might regret it later.  The issue with privilege here is this weird idea that somehow regret will be more common for transpeople than for plenty of others who are doing things which will permanently affect their lives.  Basically, for most medical procedures, people are believed when they say they understand the risks and want the surgery.  For transpeople, that privilege of being seen as competent isn't there.  There's no presumption of competency.  Instead, transpeople are forced to *prove* that they are sane and aware of the consequences.

I do understand the need for services to be paid for - but why is my word taken seriously when I report physical pain (enough so to order medical procedures that cost my insurance company money), but I wouldn't be believed if I said my body didn't match my gender, unless I had a third party observer "agree" with me?

Quote from: Artisan010 on January 29, 2011, 10:28:04 AM
Justice is to be blind.  Blind even when bestowing rights, which are different from the subjective "privilege." 

The problem is that the law (in the USA at least) isn't blind, even if justice is - and in our system, justice is constrained by the law.  I posted in a different thread that DOMA allows my marriage to be challenged by some states, but would not allow any state to challenge my marriage if I had married a female first cousin (which is legal to do in some places but not others, just like same sex marriage - but unlike same sex marriage, first cousin marriage, once it occurs, is recognize by all US states).  That seems anything but blind to me and most decidedly unjust.

Okay, I am going to post, perhaps, my last post, because obviously no one here wants to hear from a cis-gendered person who may or may not be a total cheerleader for the transgendered community.  Actually, I think I am a cheerleader, but I may tell some truths that the community may not want to hear.  It is really hard for me, because when a mainstream news source reports something about a transgendered person, I look at the comments and see how bigoted they are.  I am incensed by the bigotry and ignorance.  I am sad that, being a cis-gendered person in support of all people to have equality and justice that I am chastised here.

From Sean:
"And while it's TOTALLY a tangent, I want to disagree with this. People are acting like Aron Ralston is some kind of hero or courageous, when the truth is that there is nothing to be role modeled about what happened to him. He made mistakes that even novice mountain climbers know better than - such as pushing on past his water supply, going alone and NOT TELLING ANYONE WHERE HE WAS GOING, etc. People like Aron Raslton die every year. In his case, he got lucky. There is nothing heroic about putting yourself in danger in a totally avoidable accident. Did it take smarts and guts to survive in the aftermath? Sure. It did.

When I look at Aron Ralston, the lesson I learn is:
- how can I be smarter and not put myself in jeopardy (yes, I have violated the not telling anyone where I was going rule before)
- when faced with a crisis of MY OWN CREATION, will I have the fortitude to carry on AND would I have the ability to own up to my own mistakes and recognize that I have made a mistake that HAS had a devastating consequence and could have been worse.

I think that relates to this conversation, to the extent we've talked about people who make mistakes and how they recover from them."

Okay, I used that example, because I had just seen the movie.  I never said that he was a hero.  I don't think he is at all.  In fact, I hate the fact that anyone who suffers a tragedy is considered a hero.  I do think that he was courageous, which is the only thing I ever said he was.  I stated this because I thought it was extraordinary that he did what he did.  And I think the world at large felt the same way, because no one (or very few people) has ever done this before.   I've thought about it a thousand times, "would I have done what he did?" and I know I most likely wouldn't have.  I couldn't have had a small, dull knife and cut my arm off.  No, No, I couldn't have done that as much as I hope and dug into my soul and wished I could have.   I called him courageous, and looked up the word and think that it is accurate.  Maybe it wasn't, but goddamn, IT WAS SOMETHING!!!!  It was something extraordinary.  What he did was.  Please tell me if it wasn't.

Not to diminish anything transgendered people go through, but as a non transgendered person, I know for a fact that I would rather be a transgendered person and go through transition, than be in a crevasse and have to cut off my arm, with all its nerves,  with a dull knife.  I know for myself, I would survive being a transgendered person, far more than I would survive what Aron Ralston went through.  I know if I were Aron, I would have withered away and died completely. 

I think we need honesty here to make progress.

If you all want me to go away, I will.  Please tell me and I will. It will be very hard for me, but I promise I will do it.

I just want to add if you want to turn people against transgendered people, you are doing a great job.  I still will be supportive whenever I can, and hopefully it will include this site, but gosh, you sure are making it hard for people. I think many people will see the responses and they will feel that in reinforces their original feelings against transgendered people.  I mean, they're prejudiced against us, so why can't we be prejudiced against them?  I care very much and this is very painful for me.

Quote from: sonopoly on January 31, 2011, 05:41:29 PM
I just want to add if you want to turn people against transgendered people, you are doing a great job.  I still will be supportive whenever I can, and hopefully it will include this site, but gosh, you sure are making it hard for people. I think many people will see the responses and they will feel that in reinforces their original feelings against transgendered people.  I mean, they're prejudiced against us, so why can't we be prejudiced against them?  I care very much and this is very painful for me.

This is known as the 'Tone' argument, and it's a logical fallacy.

Quote from: sonopoly on January 31, 2011, 05:25:21 PM
Not to diminish anything transgendered people go through, but as a non transgendered person, I know for a fact that I would rather be a transgendered person and go through transition, than be in a crevasse and have to cut off my arm, with all its nerves,  with a dull knife.  I know for myself, I would survive being a transgendered person, far more than I would survive what Aron Ralston went through.  I know if I were Aron, I would have withered away and died completely.

I think the issue here is that you're postulating this as an either/or situation.
i.e. that you can be transgender OR saw your arm off with a pocket knife.
That's not really accurate at all; being trans is something extra, on top of what you already deal with in life. Would he have had the strength to saw off his arm if he was also dealing with transgender issues?
We don't know. I'd hazard a guess at 'probably not'.
I'm not really sure what your purpose is in making this comparison, as it doesn't really work.

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Thanks, Helena!  You are gorgeous and intelligent. Nuff said.

Cait, I don't think you can compare either situation.  I think that what I was saying was that I couldn't possibly even imagine either situation, and probably wouldn't be able to tolerate either situation.  I don't think you, Cait, as a transgender woman could imagine what it would be like to be in Aron's situation, no more than I could imagine what it would be like in yours.  Or, can you say that YOU can imagine what Aron was going through and we shouldn't question you about this.

Quote from: sonopoly on January 31, 2011, 07:08:29 PM
Cait, I don't think you can compare either situation.  I think that what I was saying was that I couldn't possibly even imagine either situation, and probably wouldn't be able to tolerate either situation.  I don't think you, Cait, as a transgender woman could imagine what it would be like to be in Aron's situation, no more than I could imagine what it would be like in yours.  Or, can you say that YOU can imagine what Aron was going through and we shouldn't question you about this.

Well, here's the fundamental difference:
I didn't choose the set of circumstances which made me trans.
Aaron did choose the set of circumstance which lead to him hacking his arm off.

I have a vague idea of what Aaron's situation would be like, since I nearly lost my lower left leg in a skiing accident. I can relate to the pain, I can relate to the fear of losing a limb, I can relate to the thoughts of being disabled for the rest of my life. Obviously I can't relate to the entire scenario (for one I'm not stupid enough to get in a situation like his one, I follow safety rules and practices).
You've probably broken a bone or been in great pain or had a bad injury at some time, so you can also relate to Aaron's experience on some primal level.
But I don't supposed you know how it feels to be transgender, since you're not transgender and there aren't many circumstances which are even vaguely similar to being trans.

Anyway, I'm not sure where all this is going. I've totally lost what your original point was.
Perhaps we could get back to the main topic?  :)

Reading this thread and other discussions on this site, I want to say that I feel welcome here.  I can understand this experience may not be universal among cisgender people, and I respect those different experiences.  But I expected a lot less welcoming in this space.  After all, many people here have been hurt by people who share a trait in common with me.  And, in some significant ways, I am a foreigner to most people here (including many other SOs who were introduced to this site's subjects in a different way).

If I am a visiting a foreign country, I have to learn to respect that country - even when they have problems with my home country.  It isn't my responsibility to correct every misconception about my home country through debate.  And I'll probably have a miserable time if I take every view of my home country personally.

Of course that doesn't mean that the foreign people might not have valid points.  If I go to Europe and hear about "ugly Americans", they might have observed something real.  And, perhaps, I'd do good to listen - maybe I should take care to recognize that there are lots of countries other than America, for instance, or that America isn't the best at everything.

So, when I'm here, I try to recognize that people here might see a side of cisgender people that I don't generally see myself - just as I don't see America the way Europeans might.  While Europeans are not experts on Americans, and transgender people are not experts on cisgender people, that doesn't mean that Europeans and transgender people don't have a unique perspective with valid observations - sometimes observations I'd rather weren't true, but which would do me a lot of good to hear anyhow.

I absolutely don't know what it is like to be transgendered and realize that I can never even imagine what it is like and the suffering many transgendered people go through.  I only know that I would like to support you in the best way that I can.  I don't have any ulterior motives, except that I enjoy it here and I enjoy your company.

I found this place because I wanted to learn more about transgendered people, and I have learned a lot and continue to learn, but along the way I've found this to be a comfortable place for me amongst really nice, interesting, and intelligent people.  I guess I got sucked in, and would have a hard time pulling myself away.  I'm not here to save transgendered people, though I would support them to anyone I meet and hopefully be able to inform the uninformed in the most positive of ways.

I'm glad you're back, Cait.

Thank you, Perlita, for the vote of confidence!  It is SOOOOO appreciated!  I've been having some tough times for a while, and also thought maybe I was hurting more than helping here, so I went away for awhile, but, of course, I  couldn't keep myself away.  I really missed it here, because people are so honest and compassionate here.  That's why I'm here, the wonderful and caring people.  I can't seem to find this anywhere else on the internet.