What is 'Cis Privilege'?

[CaitJ]

Thanks to some friends in "useful" places in the UK establishment you would actually have to work quite hard to uncover either my birth record, or indeed my early medical records or school records. They ahem...  all seem to have suffered damage or "partial loss," in some cases even before the digital age had begun, and the replacement ones that you can now find strangely seem to make no mention of me as anything other than female. So yes I can certainly be outed, but finding any solid legal proof would actually take a fair bit more work than you might think. Sometimes in life it's not what you know, but WHO you know that makes a difference...

There are certainly simple medical procedures that would out me very quickly I know that.

Thing is, at the moment, I don't care, because it has always been my experience that when I out myself or indeed someone that knows about me outs me it changes nothing. Now, ok, that is my good luck. I've no doubt that there are places I could go where that luck might run out if I were outed. I have the fortune to exist in the upper(ish) social echelons of a fairly liberal and accepting country. If I moved, or my social status collapsed, I might have to be a deal more careful.

So yeah overall I accept that cis privilege exists. I just don't see it as such a big deal, I guess because I have honestly never really experienced what that lack of it might feel like.

Goodbye Jenny.

[rejennyrated]

Goodbye Jenny.

I'm not planning on going anywhere. I'm sure it is possible to exist in the same space even if with a slightly different POV.

[Stephanie]

Somebody here wrote that she was presenting as male at work and hadn't yet been 'diagnosed'.* This is an example of cisgendered privilege.  We have to prove that we are not suffering from either a mental illness or 'fetishism', before the most basic elements of transition can begin.   Self-diagnosis based upon years of feelings etc counts for very little,  you must be 'diagnosed' by a professional who's entire understanding comes not from years of lived personal experience, but comes solely from theory (with a hidden agenda) and from textbooks!   This is a clear example of someone who feels that their expert personal knowledge is easily trumped by someone who has read a couple of books and one or two journal articles.


* Diagnosed as a genuine bona-fide transsexual by a member of the medical community.

[Stephanie]

This is a little off topic but you might find it helpful when you are tempted to think of psychologists/therapists as all-knowing little gods.    I did two full years of psychology(along with my major history) and I can tell you that the staff in the Psychology department were weird - not in a good way - bullies, and neurotics.     Dr X was considered an expert on 'adult bullying', he had written a couple of books and presented research papers at academic conferences in his field, yet he was the rudest, cheekiest, most insensitive, and dismissive person I have ever met.  Late arrivals at lectures/tutorials were often greeted with a 'I am so glad that you could join us'.  When anyone asked a question he didn't want to deal with he would dismiss their question with 'Oh you should be familiar with that by now', and ' I am not here to hold your hand you know?'   He made students feel small, stupid and beneath his notice, this is what an adult bully does.   This came from a man who formulated coping strategies for those suffering from adult bullying!   Here was a psychology Ph.d who was completely oblivious of his  actions and how those actions negatively affected others.    Dr X was a classic case of 'psychologist heal thy self'.  The expert on adult bullying was a bully himself, what terrible irony!   Drs A and B, both female, talked down to female students continously and shamelessly and treated them as if they were in junior high.   A newly minted Ph.d couldn't stop talking about her personal life in tutorials.    I also noticed that the whole department was obsessed with theory.   If something came to their attention their reflexive attitude was 'how does this new information fit in with existing theory?'   There is nothing wrong with doing this as such, it is when you automatically reject information because it may question or undermine established theory.  When you start dismissing and/or ignoring inconvient facts/evidence you cease to be a scholar and become a priest defending the dogmas of your religion.
So perhaps your psychologist/therapist is not seeing you as a individual, but as a 'patient' who conforms or doesn't conform to varying degrees to the beautiful and much loved theories of the psychological community regarding transsexuality. 

[rejennyrated]

I'd just like to point out that some of us found ways to get all the way to our SRS without the tiresome need for diagnosis or indeed waffling to any psycholgists. Yes it was nearly 30 years ago, but I imagine that it could still be done if someone was determined enough. (Oh and for the record I didn't go to no back street clinic either. I just paid a lot of money!)

[MillieB]

Okay I'm a little confused, I can't and won't argue with the cis or male privilege thing but am unsure as what it means in a practical sense. A trans woman could argue that a cis woman should not comment on trans subjects as they are cis and therefore the evil oppressor. A cis woman could argue that the trans woman should have nothing to say about being a woman as the trans woman grew up with all of that lovely lovely male privilege and therefore she is the evil oppressor etc....... Then a black intersex woman comes in and.......well you get the picture. Also, do all men, cis people etc..get the same level of privilege or do gay men get less than middle class straight men, in fact, do third world gay men in Uganda, living in fear for their lives have less privilege than white middle class American women?

I quite frankly can't be bothered to do these kind of calculations when talking to people, so I kind of wing it on a take people as I find them basis and never assume that they have more privilege than me, if they do then good for them, it's not really their fault. I quite like the line about never judging someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Simplistic I know but that's how I see it. I'm sure that Cait will have a different view and can out argue me any time that she feels like it as frankly, she's a lot smarter than me.

Hang on a minute, Isn't that privilege too?

[sonopoly]

Sadly, there are these privileges, and I guess I have cis privilege, but I'm not white or male, so I don't have male privilege or white privilege, if there is such a thing.  I know people who have died young.  I know people who have lost children. 

I think there are all sorts of privilege, but what does it really mean and how does it affect us?  A lot of transgendered folks here have said that if they could change things, they would not choose to NOT be transgendered, because they wouldn't be who they are.  So, does this mean you've given up the privilege?  I don't know.  It's all so complicated and can't be resolved easily.

I think we all have bad and good in our lives.  Some lose their young children.  Some die young. And a lot of horrible things.  I think being transgendered isn't ideal for a lot of people, but it's not the most horrible thing in the world, and can have positives.  I think this site has a lot of wonderful people here and maybe it's because you are transgendered.  Maybe you are better people.  I don't know if you can change your true nature, but I think you can become better people depending on your circumstances.

I do feel that it can be harder from the get-go for transgendered people, but there are so many variables.  My life totally sucks right now.  I'm sure many of your lives are way better.  I don't know if I could go through transition, but I don't have dysphoria, so I don't know what I'd be willing to go through.  I do know it's got to take a lot courage and strength.

I watched 127 Hours recently, the story about the guy who cut off his arm to survive, and I wondered if I would have the courage to do the same thing.  I still am not sure about this, though I would guess that I don't.  I still think about it and try to hope that I would.  He is now very successful, has written a book, has a movie about him, is married with a new baby.  If he didn't do this courageous act, he wouldn't have any of this. 

I hope I'd have the courage, but don't know.

[MillieB]

I'd just like to point out that some of us found ways to get all the way to our SRS without the tiresome need for diagnosis or indeed waffling to any psycholgists. Yes it was nearly 30 years ago, but I imagine that it could still be done if someone was determined enough. (Oh and for the record I didn't go to no back street clinic either. I just paid a lot of money!)

It's not that hard tbh. Dr Curtis isn't a Psychologist and you can pretty much go from his care to surgery. Or you can self med and then sweet talk one of the Thai surgeons into giving you a quickie assessment. I struggle to understand all of this anger towards 'gatekeepers' as the gates are wide open these days.

[AlexCallende]

Okay I'm a little confused, I can't and won't argue with the cis or male privilege thing but am unsure as what it means in a practical sense. A trans woman could argue that a cis woman should not comment on trans subjects as they are cis and therefore the evil oppressor. A cis woman could argue that the trans woman should have nothing to say about being a woman as the trans woman grew up with all of that lovely lovely male privilege and therefore she is the evil oppressor etc....... Then a black intersex woman comes in and.......well you get the picture. Also, do all men, cis people etc..get the same level of privilege or do gay men get less than middle class straight men, in fact, do third world gay men in Uganda, living in fear for their lives have less privilege than white middle class American women?

I quite frankly can't be bothered to do these kind of calculations when talking to people, so I kind of wing it on a take people as I find them basis and never assume that they have more privilege than me, if they do then good for them, it's not really their fault. I quite like the line about never judging someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Simplistic I know but that's how I see it. I'm sure that Cait will have a different view and can out argue me any time that she feels like it as frankly, she's a lot smarter than me.

Hang on a minute, Isn't that privilege too?

Hahahaha!  Love this comment, MillieB!

Honestly, I've done away with this notions and instead, I just try to judge the situation base on how I see them.  If my friend asked me some questions, and I know she was being sincere, she can say anything.  I WOULDN'T WANT MY FRIENDS TO FEEL LIKE THEY ARE CONSTANTLY WALKING ON THIN ICE AROUND ME.

The same applies to other people.  Who's to say that we're not being prejudiced when we walk around dealing with people thinking these CIS people are just out to get us.  That's also not fair.  And if we hate this cis privilege so much, how come a lot of us would like to be in the image of CIS-ness (read:  passable and in stealth)?!  There's nothing wrong with wanting to be in stealth, is there?!

I'm repeating myself here when I say this:  I think it is a feeling of having the privilege on its own when we  just assume people should know everything about transsexuality and GID. 

Now I understand the sensitivity of the issue to everyone of us here.  I have been a victim of CIS privilege myself.  But to bash our CIS family?!  Please!!!

What we should be aiming for is that for a day to come when we can walk around the neighborhood, and Mrs. Smith is not bothered that Mr. Jones is now Mrs. Jones.  And she looks fabulous next to her spouse, Mrs. Black-Jones as they walk to the country club for afternoon tea with Mr. Smith and their kids.

[Rock_chick]

I'd just like to point out that some of us found ways to get all the way to our SRS without the tiresome need for diagnosis or indeed waffling to any psycholgists. Yes it was nearly 30 years ago, but I imagine that it could still be done if someone was determined enough. (Oh and for the record I didn't go to no back street clinic either. I just paid a lot of money!)

I think two months from my initial appointment to getting my hrt scrip is fairly good going. I may even walk away with my first letter in a couple of weeks time.

Now just to raise the money, who's up for a crime spree?

[LordKAT]

You be Clint Eastwood and I'll be Clyde. What bank would notice that?

[Shang]

Hahahaha!  Love this comment, MillieB!

Honestly, I've done away with this notions and instead, I just try to judge the situation base on how I see them.  If my friend asked me some questions, and I know she was being sincere, she can say anything.  I WOULDN'T WANT MY FRIENDS TO FEEL LIKE THEY ARE CONSTANTLY WALKING ON THIN ICE AROUND ME.

The same applies to other people.  Who's to say that we're not being prejudiced when we walk around dealing with people thinking these CIS people are just out to get us.  That's also not fair.  And if we hate this cis privilege so much, how come a lot of us would like to be in the image of CIS-ness (read:  passable and in stealth)?!  There's nothing wrong with wanting to be in stealth, is there?!

I'm repeating myself here when I say this:  I think it is a feeling of having the privilege on its own when we  just assume people should know everything about transsexuality and GID. 

Now I understand the sensitivity of the issue to everyone of us here.  I have been a victim of CIS privilege myself.  But to bash our CIS family?!  Please!!!

I agree with the statements in bold, and pretty much the rest as well. 

My cis-gendered friends have all been wonderfully accepting of me and don't treat me any different than before they knew my status, except by changing what pronouns they use--they now use the proper pronouns despite how I look.  I could be lucky, or I'm just careful who I tell it to.  I figure if telling someone won't do any good, then I don't tell them.  If it'll do some good, then I'll tell them.  I've been asked to facilitate a meeting for the local LGBT+ group I belong to so more information on the T can be given out and so there will be more of an understanding.  And who asked me to do this?  My cis-gender friends.

And as far as I see it, almost every single minority and majority or what-have-you have their own privileges in some way or another.  There are scholarships out there where you have to be black (or "African-American") to get or you have to be some other minority.  However, you can't have any scholarships out there for if you're white because that's "racist".  You can't say you love being white without being called "racist" either, but you can say you love being black or whatever else and it's not racist.  And so forth and so forth.  Pretty much every group has some sort of privilege that is denied another group.

[Sean]

I'd like to add that all  rights come with concurrent responsibilities

Requirement of some form of "proofs" is a responsibility in order to obtain many rights in this country -- not just trans gender rights.  We can all recall needing to assert a positive right when proof has been required which we felt was burdensome, unnecessary or otherwise invalid.  I have been required to show proofs, and continuing medical proofs, when claiming a right because it was my responsibility to do so even though I disagreed or felt that sufficient proof was provided.

The rights that are bestowed (trans rights) also protect you from those who would seek to exploit those rights.  Justice is to be blind.  Blind even when bestowing rights, which are different from the subjective "privilege." 

I do not deny that inequalities exist and will continue to exist, not only for the trans community.   I sympathize because medical proofs can be invasive.  But look at those who are still trying to receive benefits and coverage from the government after being harmed (or have since died) by their work on the rescue and recovery of 9/11.  Collectively we know that they are entitled to some rights of compensation, yet each individual has been continuously asked to provide his or her own medical proofs.   This protects their ultimate goal of a right to recognition and compensation, while preventing those who would take advantage of the right.

I am trying to show a gender blind example where rights can be obtained after medical proof while fully acknowledging that those who make the determination as to proof may not be an expert in the field, but are held out as experts by those with the privilege to do so.

It's never a perfect system, but it's the one we have (in he U.S.)

Requiring that people who want to be compensated for their medical bills show proof of these bills to substantiate their claims is not remotely analagous to the kind of 'proofs' people are talking about needing to show in order to get ACCESS to medical care for gender identity related treatment. This is not about being compensated or having someone else pay for things. It is about whether you are DENIED treatment in the first place.

When people start DENYING medical care to people who have breathing troubles, PTSD, and other related long term effects from 9/11, then your analogy would begin to make sense.

Beyond that, I want to point out to the people here who are making the argument: "everyone has some privilege and some lack of privilege, so we're ALL privileged and we're ALL non-privileged so I treat people like an individual":

People SHOULD be treated as individuals and not as data points in categories. However, the fact that SOME people have some privileges and other people have OTHER privileges doesn't meant that understanding these privileges is useless or that there isn't more work to be done to advocates for the rights of any one specific group. I think there is a lot of naivitee present in the argument of "We're all special anyway" because it is often presented as a way of deligitimizing the requests of non-privileged peoples of all different categories.

I watched 127 Hours recently, the story about the guy who cut off his arm to survive, and I wondered if I would have the courage to do the same thing.  I still am not sure about this, though I would guess that I don't.  I still think about it and try to hope that I would.  He is now very successful, has written a book, has a movie about him, is married with a new baby.  If he didn't do this courageous act, he wouldn't have any of this. 

I hope I'd have the courage, but don't know.

And while it's TOTALLY a tangent, I want to disagree with this. People are acting like Aron Ralston is some kind of hero or courageous, when the truth is that there is nothing to be role modeled about what happened to him. He made mistakes that even novice mountain climbers know better than - such as pushing on past his water supply, going alone and NOT TELLING ANYONE WHERE HE WAS GOING, etc. People like Aron Raslton die every year. In his case, he got lucky. There is nothing heroic about putting yourself in danger in a totally avoidable accident. Did it take smarts and guts to survive in the aftermath? Sure. It did.

When I look at Aron Ralston, the lesson I learn is:
- how can I be smarter and not put myself in jeopardy (yes, I have violated the not telling anyone where I was going rule before)
- when faced with a crisis of MY OWN CREATION, will I have the fortitude to carry on AND would I have the ability to own up to my own mistakes and recognize that I have made a mistake that HAS had a devastating consequence and could have been worse.

I think that relates to this conversation, to the extent we've talked about people who make mistakes and how they recover from them.

[ToriJo]

Requirement of some form of "proofs" is a responsibility in order to obtain many rights in this country -- not just trans gender rights.  We can all recall needing to assert a positive right when proof has been required which we felt was burdensome, unnecessary or otherwise invalid.  I have been required to show proofs, and continuing medical proofs, when claiming a right because it was my responsibility to do so even though I disagreed or felt that sufficient proof was provided.

If I were to want hormones (and seeking medical help to do it appropriately), why is that treated differently than any one of 1000 other procedures?  For instance, I can have back surgery that may result in complications that paralyze me without needing a shrink to say, "Yes, this person really is sure they want to do this."  Or I can have a plastic surgeon change my nose - despite the fact I might regret it later.  The issue with privilege here is this weird idea that somehow regret will be more common for transpeople than for plenty of others who are doing things which will permanently affect their lives.  Basically, for most medical procedures, people are believed when they say they understand the risks and want the surgery.  For transpeople, that privilege of being seen as competent isn't there.  There's no presumption of competency.  Instead, transpeople are forced to *prove* that they are sane and aware of the consequences.

I do understand the need for services to be paid for - but why is my word taken seriously when I report physical pain (enough so to order medical procedures that cost my insurance company money), but I wouldn't be believed if I said my body didn't match my gender, unless I had a third party observer "agree" with me?

Justice is to be blind.  Blind even when bestowing rights, which are different from the subjective "privilege." 

The problem is that the law (in the USA at least) isn't blind, even if justice is - and in our system, justice is constrained by the law.  I posted in a different thread that DOMA allows my marriage to be challenged by some states, but would not allow any state to challenge my marriage if I had married a female first cousin (which is legal to do in some places but not others, just like same sex marriage - but unlike same sex marriage, first cousin marriage, once it occurs, is recognize by all US states).  That seems anything but blind to me and most decidedly unjust.

[sonopoly]

Okay, I am going to post, perhaps, my last post, because obviously no one here wants to hear from a cis-gendered person who may or may not be a total cheerleader for the transgendered community.  Actually, I think I am a cheerleader, but I may tell some truths that the community may not want to hear.  It is really hard for me, because when a mainstream news source reports something about a transgendered person, I look at the comments and see how bigoted they are.  I am incensed by the bigotry and ignorance.  I am sad that, being a cis-gendered person in support of all people to have equality and justice that I am chastised here.

From Sean:
"And while it's TOTALLY a tangent, I want to disagree with this. People are acting like Aron Ralston is some kind of hero or courageous, when the truth is that there is nothing to be role modeled about what happened to him. He made mistakes that even novice mountain climbers know better than - such as pushing on past his water supply, going alone and NOT TELLING ANYONE WHERE HE WAS GOING, etc. People like Aron Raslton die every year. In his case, he got lucky. There is nothing heroic about putting yourself in danger in a totally avoidable accident. Did it take smarts and guts to survive in the aftermath? Sure. It did.

When I look at Aron Ralston, the lesson I learn is:
- how can I be smarter and not put myself in jeopardy (yes, I have violated the not telling anyone where I was going rule before)
- when faced with a crisis of MY OWN CREATION, will I have the fortitude to carry on AND would I have the ability to own up to my own mistakes and recognize that I have made a mistake that HAS had a devastating consequence and could have been worse.

I think that relates to this conversation, to the extent we've talked about people who make mistakes and how they recover from them."

Okay, I used that example, because I had just seen the movie.  I never said that he was a hero.  I don't think he is at all.  In fact, I hate the fact that anyone who suffers a tragedy is considered a hero.  I do think that he was courageous, which is the only thing I ever said he was.  I stated this because I thought it was extraordinary that he did what he did.  And I think the world at large felt the same way, because no one (or very few people) has ever done this before.   I've thought about it a thousand times, "would I have done what he did?" and I know I most likely wouldn't have.  I couldn't have had a small, dull knife and cut my arm off.  No, No, I couldn't have done that as much as I hope and dug into my soul and wished I could have.   I called him courageous, and looked up the word and think that it is accurate.  Maybe it wasn't, but goddamn, IT WAS SOMETHING!!!!  It was something extraordinary.  What he did was.  Please tell me if it wasn't.

Not to diminish anything transgendered people go through, but as a non transgendered person, I know for a fact that I would rather be a transgendered person and go through transition, than be in a crevasse and have to cut off my arm, with all its nerves,  with a dull knife.  I know for myself, I would survive being a transgendered person, far more than I would survive what Aron Ralston went through.  I know if I were Aron, I would have withered away and died completely. 

I think we need honesty here to make progress.

If you all want me to go away, I will.  Please tell me and I will. It will be very hard for me, but I promise I will do it.

[sonopoly]

I just want to add if you want to turn people against transgendered people, you are doing a great job.  I still will be supportive whenever I can, and hopefully it will include this site, but gosh, you sure are making it hard for people. I think many people will see the responses and they will feel that in reinforces their original feelings against transgendered people.  I mean, they're prejudiced against us, so why can't we be prejudiced against them?  I care very much and this is very painful for me.

[CaitJ]

I just want to add if you want to turn people against transgendered people, you are doing a great job.  I still will be supportive whenever I can, and hopefully it will include this site, but gosh, you sure are making it hard for people. I think many people will see the responses and they will feel that in reinforces their original feelings against transgendered people.  I mean, they're prejudiced against us, so why can't we be prejudiced against them?  I care very much and this is very painful for me.

This is known as the 'Tone' argument, and it's a logical fallacy.

[CaitJ]

Not to diminish anything transgendered people go through, but as a non transgendered person, I know for a fact that I would rather be a transgendered person and go through transition, than be in a crevasse and have to cut off my arm, with all its nerves,  with a dull knife.  I know for myself, I would survive being a transgendered person, far more than I would survive what Aron Ralston went through.  I know if I were Aron, I would have withered away and died completely.

I think the issue here is that you're postulating this as an either/or situation.
i.e. that you can be transgender OR saw your arm off with a pocket knife.
That's not really accurate at all; being trans is something extra, on top of what you already deal with in life. Would he have had the strength to saw off his arm if he was also dealing with transgender issues?
We don't know. I'd hazard a guess at 'probably not'.
I'm not really sure what your purpose is in making this comparison, as it doesn't really work.

[Rock_chick]

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[sonopoly]

Thanks, Helena!  You are gorgeous and intelligent. Nuff said.