I've been thinking lately about all of the different words used within transgender spaces and how some of the language is problematic. I thought about why some of these words don't sit too well with me and would like to discuss what other think about the language used to describe people in terms of gender. What words are bothersome, why they are, etc.
So, I'll kick it off with a few words and phrases that bug me. "Genetic girl" and "transwoman/transman."
My problem with genetic girl is that usually people don't know their genetics. A woman might very well be genetically "not a woman" but be a cis woman. Plus, it pushes an emphasis on genetics as being the determining factor.
Transwoman/transman, my issue is that these words seem othering. I think that this phrasing is okay for self identification if a person identifies as a predominantly trans person and secondarily man or woman. Trans woman or trans man uses "trans" as an adjective to describe the kind of man or woman just like "tall woman" or "short man."
Anybody else have ideas for language that could be changed, or used differently?
Quote from: Flan
I'm seeing a WP trend and in some threads (here) to identify as transwoman/man (all one word) or trans woman/man (2 words, one to recognize the treatment, another for identity)
my idea would be to convert the wiki terminology to the latter to for lack of better words, humanize the people who are undergoing transition instead of identifying the people by the condition. (ts'ism)
I pretty much agree with you in that the language should describe the person and not define (especially the misnomer "transgenderer").
Yeah... this would be an interesting discussion to have if it wasn't 95% destined to devolve into a slanging match over transsexual/transgender. Good luck though.
I don't like the terms "real guy" "real girl"
the only thing unreal about me is my lack of penis, chest, and genetic makeup
the term trans man doesn't bother me a bit though, I am a man, and I am trans, sometimes i identify as a man, sometimes i identify as a trans man.
Bio-male and bio-female is another one that bothers me. I don't understand what substance biology holds in that situation. I prefer assigned female at birth or assigned male at birth (AFAB, AMAB). It recognizes that when we're born doctors say what our genitals most closely resemble and call us based on what they see.
Honestly as long as someone isn't insulting me I'll use pretty much any words and let people use pretty much any words except for "real guy or girl" like Elijah mentioned.
I am a real man but I'm also transgender/transsexual so the word transman does not bother me. I am one. AFAB or AMAB is a cool word and a great way of saying it but then it makes me think of the fact that I was female at birth transman for some reason doesn't so I usually use that.
Quote from: Nygeel on February 18, 2011, 10:28:00 PM
Bio-male and bio-female is another one that bothers me. I don't understand what substance biology holds in that situation. I prefer assigned female at birth or assigned male at birth (AFAB, AMAB). It recognizes that when we're born doctors say what our genitals most closely resemble and call us based on what they see.
I would prefer 'trans man' to 'assigned female at birth' the latter seems to put too much emphasis on the female part, even calling myself FTM seems weird because I cant see the F, I know its here, but I dont like to admit it to myself
I agree with all the comments, and I know I use genetic guy, genetic girl, TG and MtF and FtM. None of which I like. And often in a post I will say I don't like these terms but... For language to be useful it has to be descriptive. It also has to be functional. So how do we replace these terms? Particularly when we might be communicating for the first time with a newbie who is just starting to explore their gender identity problems. Another phrase I don't like as my gender is fine, I'm female, it's the sex organs, both primary and secondary that are wrong. To start stating 'as a man born into a female body' I identify with men born into male bodies. And of course the same for females born onto male bodies etc. It is more accurate but gets very clumsy. Given that the main stream press call people like me ->-bleeped-<-s, and men born into female bodies, lesbians, what hope have we got?
Interesting to hear what we may wish to use among ourselves though, and of course it would be difficult to police unless a poster was being obviously insulting.
Cindy
Sorry an additional thought. In some gender assignment clinics people are referred to as XX-male or XY-female.
Which I don't mind
Cindy
The one that really gets me is a woman trapped in a man's body. I am not trapped in my body, in that sense anyway. Like Cindy says, it's the sex organs that are wrong.
XX-male and XY-female are fine with me if they're really necessary and you know your genetics. In fact this could be useful if you are intersexed, ie XXY-female. However, I see this as more useful in a medical setting.
I don't like MTF, transwoman, etc, most of the time female or woman (for me) is all that is necessary. How relevant is my transition most of the time? I am a woman, that's enough.
It seems like some of the big problems with a lot of these terms is the way gender and sex are used interchangeably, a general lack of understanding of the difference and the vagueness of what male and female are referring to. Is male referring to gender or sex?
The other big problem I see is that we are guilty of trying to stuff our language into binary boxes. What do we call the person assigned male at birth, taking female hormones, presenting as androgynous and doesn't want any kind of surgery? Gender is still being viewed as binary and we really don't have the words to describe it as a spectrum.
The word "passing". It makes me think of pet training, "Heeere, ->-bleeped-<-, go on, pass, pass! Aaawww, you passed, who's a good ->-bleeped-<-?". A better word would be "percieved as...", since that is essentially what happens (you are percieved, by people, as male, female, a goth, a shoplifter, a tea drinker, etc). Being percieved as something cements the fact that it is purely in the eye of the beholder, and it removes the pet training vibes of passing.
Personally, I don't have any problem with terms that aren't intended to denigate or offend.
But I do have a problem when I'm not sure what they actually mean.
What is a cis woman for example?
A cis woman is a woman who doesn't feel her body doesn't match her mind (sorry for stupid explanation, am tired atm). Trans mean "over, across, on the other side of, beyond" in Latin, Cis means "on the same side of". Cis is the opposite of trans, and IMO a better word than "bio woman", since all human beings are biological (unless someone on here is a cylon?).
Media studies master class: all labels are othering, even if they come from within a comunity rather than being forced upon it by a dominant discourse. i.e. newspapers generally calling us ->-bleeped-<-s, or if they're really mean pervets with some kind of kinky fetish.
Linguistically most of the language used does an excellent job of describing the medical process we go through...the only two I don't like ate genetic girl or real girl, because hell it's possible to be an XX male or an XY female and real girl is a label that has it's origins in the dominant discourse and as such comes under the heading of language of control that seeks to belittle us and firmly put us in our place.
On a personaly level I much prefer the label "Helena", "woman" or possibly "human woman" (as opposed to a feline woman :laugh:...but I'm that too), but unfortunately humans and their language don't like such broad descriptive terms. Because we use language as a mental frame work to break up the world into bite sized and therefore understandable chunks labels are inevitable...and to be honest the issues people appear to have with the language is not because of it's descriptive nature (MtF is an accurate description of the process I am going through after all) but rather that some people choose to use these descriptive terms as identities, mainly because of the fact we lack power within the dominant discourse and those that tend to take the descriptive labels as identities tend to be seen as representatie of the whole and therefore by their actions define us in the eyes of our good friend the dominant discourse.
I also really dislike the term cis, especially the way I have seen it used on occasion and I agree totally with Pixie Boy on the term passing...it's not a test it's my life god dammit!
I'll stop now, I think I've used the term "dominant discourse" enough times for today and it's not even half ten in the morning. :laugh:
Quote from: PixieBoy on February 19, 2011, 03:55:21 AM
A cis woman is a woman who doesn't feel her body doesn't match her mind (sorry for stupid explanation, am tired atm). Trans mean "over, across, on the other side of, beyond" in Latin, Cis means "on the same side of". Cis is the opposite of trans, and IMO a better word than "bio woman", since all human beings are biological (unless someone on here is a cylon?).
In other words, a woman who doesn't have the same problems as us. A sort of fancy way of saying normie.
You see, I thought is might allude to sissy, or sister, just couldn't figure out the purpose of the c.
But as I said, being understood seems to me, at least, as more important. That is, after all the whole point of English and whi English is so widely used compared to any other language.
Quote from: Elijah on February 18, 2011, 11:31:25 PM
I would prefer 'trans man' to 'assigned female at birth' the latter seems to put too much emphasis on the female part, even calling myself FTM seems weird because I cant see the F, I know its here, but I dont like to admit it to myself
AFAB would be a term if a person is refering to either people of all or many genders who were assigned female at birth. I do agree with disliking FTM and MTF. I think it focuses too much on the transition. It focuses on there being a starting point and an end point, where as for many of us there is no exact starting or end point in transition. It's a focus on the body and the physical instead of who we actually are.
I think we can agree that the concept of passing as well as the emphasis on passing is overall busted. I use the phrase "read as..." instead of "passing." It's the position of the person judging you to say if you are this or that as opposed to something you can do to change the outcome.
@Hannah_Irene You call them by their name, or whatever they identify as. Genderqueer, androgyne, two spirit, agender, bigender...and I can't think of any more words. Also call this person by whatever pronouns they prefer sie/hir, they/their, Ze/zir whatever they want (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun#Modern_English)
@spacial ehrm...what determines if a person is a "normie?"
Quote from: PixieBoy on February 19, 2011, 03:55:21 AM
A cis woman is a woman who doesn't feel her body doesn't match her mind (sorry for stupid explanation, am tired atm). Trans mean "over, across, on the other side of, beyond" in Latin, Cis means "on the same side of". Cis is the opposite of trans, and IMO a better word than "bio woman", since all human beings are biological (unless someone on here is a cylon?).
:eusa_whistle: And I have a plan...:eusa_whistle:
Quote from: Nygeel on February 19, 2011, 08:34:03 AM
@spacial ehrm...what determines if a person is a "normie?"
Sorry, I was being
cynical flippant with the excessive use of lables.
But the best defination I can think of for normie is possibly, utterly boring, devoid of anything intresting. ;D
Quote from: Nygeel on February 19, 2011, 08:34:03 AM
@Hannah_Irene You call them by their name, or whatever they identify as. Genderqueer, androgyne, two spirit, agender, bigender...and I can't think of any more words. Also call this person by whatever pronouns they prefer sie/hir, they/their, Ze/zir whatever they want (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun#Modern_English)
Gender neutral pronouns bother me a bit. I can appreciate them from an academic point of view but seeing ze or hir in a sentence just looks like a misspelling to me. They're not part of my everyday vocabulary and it takes an effort to use them. I'm not against the concept, it's just a little jarring when I read or hear them in a sentence.
I dont care what people call me... As long as isnt meant as an insult and even then it doesnt bother me that bad...
I dont idemtify as transgender, mtf, or any of that... I identify as Ashley (or A.J. Depending on the situation) and as "me" and that's it...
I really appreciate the different points of view - they invite me to think, to wonder, to expand my mind. Also it helps me clarify things. For example, I like differentiating the use of labels to "describe" a process or pattern of behaviors (useful) versus the use of labels to "identify" a person or yourself (limiting at best - damaging at worst).
I like "mtf" for myself, because to me it describes in shorthand the process I am going through. It does not imply an endpoint to me; it is more of a "vector", a direction of movement with an indeterminate endpoint. I could be mtf androgynous, or pro-op trans-sexual or trans-sexual, two-spirit, or just really, really feminine - I am exploring. The language is comforting to the extent it confirms I am experiencing something know to exist, something like what others experience. I am not crazy for feeling the way I do. (I may be crazy for other reasons, but not this).
But at the end of the day, it is all just labels, verbal symbols of complex things that words can only point to and never adequately define or contain. Just artificial, incomplete and inadequate markers that we use for convenience.
Words are only useful if we do not take them too seriously.
And if we occasionally remind others not to take them seriously. People do sometimes use limiting and pejorative labels to harm.
Kendall
I think that, well, it gets bad when there is only a word for the "weirdo". It used to be that there was trans people, and people. With the word cis, then both trans and "normal" people get their own cathegory. It's similar to the expression neurotypical (NT) that is used by some autistic people for the "normal" people. Both aspies and enties (NT's), both cis and trans. Nobody is singled out as that "weirdo", both have a word for what they are. I'm sorry if I explain it in a weird way, I can't really think right now.
PixieBoy, do you mean sort of holding cis and neurotypical people as the ideal? Like that a cis person is a woman, but a trans person is a trans woman. That trans-ness is based off "not trans-ness."
Quote from: Nygeel on February 18, 2011, 08:53:41 PM
Anybody else have ideas for language that could be changed, or used differently?
Yeah I don't like any of the "trans" terms either. It implies that a person is in between two things, either permanetly or while moving from one to the other, neither of which apply to me. I'm not changing anything or part one gender and part another, I'm just a woman with a condition. This condition is not part of who I am any more than having a cold is.
The "assigned at birth" terminology is a little better since it's at least accurate, but it someone else's assignment of anything to me is meaningless unless I choose to accept their assignment.
As far as pronouns, I just use plural pronouns if I'm not sure which singular one to use, or if I need one that can refer to either gender. I think it is less offensive than it and less awkward than some of the invented pronouns I've seen.
To me, there needs to be a word for "both" sides. If there is only a word for the "weirdo", then that makes it into a "you're a freak, we're so normal we don't even need a word to express what we are, it's so blindingly obvious" kind of situation. Sorry if I'm explaining it oddly. That is why words like cis needs to exist, words like neurotypical. It's dangerous when there is only a word for the "weirdo". I don't think that cis or neurotypical are better than trans or autism-spectric, I just think that there needs to be a word for both sides.
A cis woman is not trans, a trans woman is not cis. By using the word cis, I make sure that the cis woman is not just woman, because if there were only trans women and women, then that would imply that trans women are a special kind of women. By using cis-, I make a cathegory for, well, cis people as well. Mostly I refer to people as men/women, only pointing out if they're trans or cis if it's relevant. It's the same with wether someone is NT or AS (autism spectric), it usually is irrevelant so I don't say it.
I'm sorry if this is incomprehensible, I'm in a pretty weird state of mind at the moment, I hope I haven't inconvenienced anyone.
the trans- prefix should stay. trans people don't have to present as trans all the time, but there are medical and political reasons that it's a good thing to keep around. i think there are also personal identity issues to think about. a trans person is more likely than a cis person to understand differences of gender, and that's a valuable thing to have.
Quote from: Almond on February 20, 2011, 12:57:42 PM
the trans- prefix should stay. trans people don't have to present as trans all the time, but there are medical and political reasons that it's a good thing to keep around. i think there are also personal identity issues to think about. a trans person is more likely than a cis person to understand differences of gender, and that's a valuable thing to have.
Could you explain yourself further?
Sometimes labels are a necessary evil. If you are going to lobby for specific rights you can't simply say 'for the ashley's in the U.S. You have to be specific so that everyone knows what you are talking about. The PC word transgender also just adds to the confusion. Why does someone who is transgender need GRS they think. They go look it up and find various flavored groups of people there. Crossdressers need surgery? No, they don't. Actually transsexuals/intersex do. Oh well why didn't you say so? So the word transgender is used everywhere but you have to look at the context of what is being said and have an intimate knowledge of the word to know if they are talking about transsexual or something else. Frustrating.
my two cents...
Basically I don't like any of the words (trans-, MTF...) but they do help in this period of my life to explain to others in what spot I am. Once this period of transition is gone, I could only live with one designation: woman. There would be no trans, cis... anymore. So I guess what I'm saying is that any choice of words which helps to explain or frame a thought or concept is basically a good one. If today it helps others to call me trans-something, I'm fine with that. I for one know who I am: a woman. Always have been and always will be. It's up to me to find my place in society and blend in the way it was supposed to be.
Love,
Emma
Don't get andros involved in this conversation - they just use words as appeal to them at the time.
Quote from: Dana Lane on February 20, 2011, 02:17:27 PM
Crossdressers need surgery? No, they don't. Actually transsexuals/intersex do. Oh well why didn't you say so?
Not all transsexuals nor do all intersex people need or want surgery.
Quote from: Nygeel on February 20, 2011, 06:12:49 PM
Not all transsexuals nor do all intersex people need or want surgery.
My point was no crossdressers need GRS.
Quote from: Dana Lane on February 20, 2011, 06:24:33 PM
My point was no crossdressers need GRS.
Some might, I tend to not throw around absolutes.
Quote from: Nygeel on February 20, 2011, 06:33:28 PM
Some might, I tend to not throw around absolutes.
If you can throw me a case where a crossdresser requires surgery I will consider that.
Quote from: Dana Lane on February 20, 2011, 07:02:37 PM
If you can throw me a case where a crossdresser requires surgery I will consider that.
My belief is that lines aren't so harshly drawn and that maybe some crossdressers have some dysphoria. I know of a few butch identified women who have had chest surgery. They don't self identify as crossdressers but it could be argued that being assigned female at birth while having the identity of a woman and wearing clothing typically associated with the opposite sex...well, it's a stretch but that could be considered crossdressing.
Quote from: Pica Pica on February 20, 2011, 03:28:17 PM
Don't get andros involved in this conversation - they just use words as appeal to them at the time.
that's rude. all of us are here because we have GID. androgynous people just confront it differently than transsexuals.
Quote from: Almond on February 21, 2011, 12:11:19 PM
that's rude. all of us are here because we have GID. androgynous people just confront it differently than transsexuals.
No, merely amusing, and despite the flippancy makes a valid point...words are merely labels and their usages can and do change ove time.
Now, y'all play nice now.
And besides - Pica Pica as a fully paid up androgyne is fully entitled to say something about androgynes.
What's ironic is that the terms that are used to define us today were created during a time when little was known gender identity disorder at all. As time has gone by, these terms have inevitably become out dated. It makes more sense for me to consider Gender Identity Disorder to be something of an intersex condition. Because of the porn industry, the distance between ->-bleeped-<- and transgender is much shorter than the distance between transgender and intersex. I don't think this properly reflects the gender dysphoria condition. From a social perspective, the most common trans-misconceptions come from the fact that general 'lay' people seem to think that ->-bleeped-<- is a sexual issue rather than a gender issue.
So what do we do? Simple - drop this whole 'trans' business and just understand that we're just 'people' with gender identity disorder. That's the only single thing that we all have in common. There are infinite ways to treat this condition, and if we gave a label for every treatment, we'd be here forever.
@Apricot not entirely true. Many people aren't diagnosed with "GID" because of the whole gatekeeper funny business. Plus, many people do have, and want to identify with the word "trans." Not everybody considers it a condition, not everybody wants or needs "treatment."
Quote from: pixiegirl on February 18, 2011, 09:58:11 PM
Yeah... this would be an interesting discussion to have if it wasn't 95% destined to devolve into a slanging match over transsexual/transgender. Good luck though.
Hehe, my thoughts exactly.
It's been 9 years since I started figuring out this whole TS mess within myself and joined the community; in that time I've seen so many names come, go, be created and offend people...... it's all bunk.
About every 5 years a new generation of trans people shows up and decides they don't like the current terminology and try to come up with something better; and if one thing is consistent, it's that no one can agree on anything! :P
Be that as it may........ I usually just go with guy or girl if either of those are met by O_o I'll break out MtF, FtM and GG because they've all been around for eons. I don't really care much either way what I'm called, if it's not said in a negative connotation I'm fine with it.... I've got far more important things to worry about.
~Sara :)
I don't mind the terms, as long as people use them correctly and don't use them too much.
For example when people say stuff like "He's FtM" or "He's a transman". I'm like "No.. I'm a boy. Get it right." Or when people have to point out I'm transgender at every little thing.
That's a pet peeve.