I watched this Canadian documentary film yeterday - made by Gwen Haworth, who is the subject of the film. I'm very grateful for her honesty, and that of her friends, family, and ex-wife (who is gorgeous too! - just had to say it...)
It was helpful for me to see the documented transition of someone who wanted to be female, but wasn't going for a stereotypical feminine hetero look - if I do end up going through this process myself, I expect to end up as a dungarees'n'boots purple-haired kind of gal who still sings bass :) (which I'm realising is only 'androgynous' from the limited perspective of "men should look like this, women should look like that"). It's been bugging me that the other forum I've been visiting is very handbags-and-hairstyles oriented - I'm glad there's a lot more diversity on this site, it's so easy to self-pigeonhole, and so easy to feel under pressure to fit in somewhere.
I'm noticing a subtle pattern among my friends whom I've talked to about this stuff lately: I get more affirmation if I talk up the caution aspect "Of course I'm not making any decisions yet, except the decision not to make any decisions yet..." as opposed to the change aspect "I may well go through with all of this: electrolyis, HRT, surgery. It's possible that's what I'm going to do." It seems to me that they're all hoping this is just going to blow over! And I can feel in myself a corresponding urge to emphasise the caution, because I need affirmation! And then of course here, I feel the urge to emphasise the change part, so as not to be thought of as a weekend transperson :-\.
Pff. It's both. I'm feeling a strong urge to change, and a strong urge to be cautious. good, that's got that said. Meanwhile, the hunt continueth for decent dungarees for someone with a 32" inside leg :).
There's a girl on youtube I should find for you, she is quite andro and still passes well, she's awesome. *make a mental note to find her tomorrow*
QuoteOf course I'm not making any decisions yet, except the decision not to make any decisions yet..." as opposed to the change aspect "I may well go through with all of this: electrolyis, HRT, surgery. It's possible that's what I'm going to do."
Thank God I'm not the only one! See, they tell me it's all about my age but this pretty much says it's not about age, it's about that they have preconceived beliefs about being trans. I could be your age and people would likely still say it to me as well!
People are dumb.
Or people are scared :). I know I am, and I'm the one who remotely knows what's going on, so no wonder other people are freaked out (if they are).
Plus I have a bit of a reputation for getting "into" things overenthusiastically. But the folk who've known me for a long time know that this gender issue has been cropping up for me since my 20's anyway, so it's not so much of a surprise - they're just waiting to see if it fades out again or not (as am I).
Quote from: yoxi on March 15, 2011, 04:59:46 AM
Or people are scared :). I know I am, and I'm the one who remotely knows what's going on, so no wonder other people are freaked out (if they are).
Plus I have a bit of a reputation for getting "into" things overenthusiastically. But the folk who've known me for a long time know that this gender issue has been cropping up for me since my 20's anyway, so it's not so much of a surprise - they're just waiting to see if it fades out again or not (as am I).
Yes, it's a scary thing. People
are scared. I was afraid my parents and siblings would write me off completely, but I was wrong. Their biggest reaction was concern for me, that I was doing "the right thing", that I "knew what I was getting into" and had "considered all the ramifications". And I appreciate their concern, it's a heck of a lot better than "Have a nice life...". And the more they see of what I'm doing and how I'm going about it, the more onside they are. My parents apparently said to one of my sisters, "We've done enough research to know that once the diagnosis is made, it's usually correct." And, of course, there are all the delays built into the process, so by the time you get down to irrevocable actions, you really KNOW this is what you want. Glad to see you're questioning, challenging assumptions, and really searching yourself. That is very necessary with this journey.
Edit: The part about being known for "getting into things" over-enthusiastically, and having things "blow over"? That's me. But if this is a "phase", it's a heck of a long phase... ::)
Thanks, Colleen. there's a lot to consider - for me, overlaying the whole issue of what my root gender(s) really is(are), there's been a painful layer of homophobia (mine and others') in relation to me being polysexual since forever, and a more painful layer of confusion brought about by being used for sex by my parents as a child.
I've just been sussing out that each time this gender issue has come up for me over the last 30 years, it's come up at a time when I've peeled back and engaged with one of those other layers. The first time was when I came out as bi; the second was when I acknowledged what my father did to me; and the third was when I acknowledged what my mother had done to me too. This time it's come up (I think) because I've been going through a kind of synthesis of all of the above, and been accepting myself with a love I didn't have capacity for before.
The first time it emerged, I ended up deciding that what it was really about was that I thought being attracted to men meant I wasn't a proper man, so the only alternative was to be a woman (this was the mid-80's, mind you - not a great time to be coming out). So instead, I began coming to terms with my sexual orientation. The other two times, I've been seeing it as somehow tangled up with wanting to escape from my parents, or avoid being them, or something, or needing to be a woman in order to get loved, so I set it to one side and dealt with the "more immediate" stuff.
This time round, it's much more about my sense of self, overarching and containing all of that mess that's gradually being healed up. But since the important thing is what's going on under the bonnet, I have plenty of time to wait and see whether this leads me to do anything physical and irreversible about it on the outside :).
QuoteThe part about being known for "getting into things" over-enthusiastically, and having things "blow over"? That's me.
For me, that proves that this is the right thing because I am the same. If it wasn't the right thing, I'd be over it like other interests. True personality, true things STICK, and this has consistently stuck.
I think what's been puzzling me over the years was that it came in waves, and then went away again. but this time I'm seeing more the reasons why it needed to go away, as well as the reasons it arrived and why it has arrived again now. So it's not "a phase", because it's been 4 phases so far! Perhaps it's like a really long biorhythmic cycle ;D. But seriously, I'm inclined to think it's not a cycle but a spiral - I'm getting closer to knowing what it's telling me.
Outcast-Films.com (http://www.outcast-films.com/films/sabik/index.html)
There are some excellent reviews of this film on their site.
At the very bottom of the page is a link to more thoughtful reviews.
Thanks, Yoxi. :D
I know I'm not the first person here to mention this film, I just wanted to big it up again :). I hadn't read all those reviews, it's nice to know it got such positive reception, it deserved that.
It's been an interesting couple of days - I've been reading up on "the process" over here in the UK, and one of the listed conditions for presenting as someone with GID is the desire to wear the clothing of the opposite gender. Now, my clothing tastes are actually fairly genderless - baggy karate trousers, baggy tops and shirts. It's sounding to me a bit like when you take your driving test, and you have to do all this stuff for the test (like moving your head when you look in the mirror) in order to pass, that you'll never actually do in normal life. I'm going to try to line myself up with a good GID-friendly therapist once I move to Devon, and find out how all this might work for me, in that I don't want to live as a woman in the sense of "dresses and makeup", I just want to live as me, and my main urge for change is the fundamental physical/anatomic attributes - facial hair, boobs, genitals - not the outfits (though I'd like to wear even more colourful clothes than I already do).
I guess I need to talk to some local dykes about where they get their outfits :).
the important thing is that if you transition you stay you, not change to try be a stereotype of a gender. best of luck.
Unfortunately, there's still far too much expectation of stereotypical behaviour expected from trans patients. But hopefully when the DSM-5 and WPATH SoC v7 are finally ratified this will change. The new DSM-5 allows for a much larger range of gender expression, more accurately describing the transgender spectrum. It won't be perfect, but it will be much improved.
To give you an idea, I'll probably go in for my orchiectomy next month in full makeup, wig, and jewelry, with painted acrylic nails. The surgeon seems to think he shouldn't remove my useless testicles if I'm not fully immersed in living my female role 24/7/365. Well, considering I still need hair replacement surgery and many more hours of electrolysis to remove my beard, and my workplace is nowhere near ready for me to publicly transition, I can't see it as a mandatory requirement, I see it as a personal inconvenience. I'm willing to bear that incovenience for 2 to 4 days, if it means getting the surgery performed or not.
Stupid stereotypes. What percentage of modern women *ever* wear a dress or skirt, these days?
Exactly - and the assumed garb is very heteronormative too - like it's assumed that anyone wanting to become a woman is wanting to become a straight woman, with all that entails in terms of stereotypes.
The upcoming DMS-5 is great news for you American folk, but things move more slowly here in Blighty. I'm lining up some help and support from transgendered women in the UK who identify as lesbian/bi, to see how they handled it. Perhaps the requirement should be the ability to turn up for surgery bearing a perfect lemon drizzle cake, fer goodness' sake.
im completly with you on the sexuality route, its alot of what stopped me self diagnosing for years. i thought i couldnt be a woman because i was attracted to women. we need to get the ideas or sexual orientation and gender separated in the minds of those who dont see it.
A part of the process of discovering who I am through transition is discovering that not everyone else is like me. People tend to be ego centric and see other people and their experience through their own experience. So when people express concern about you wanting to change they see it from the perspective of someone who may be content with their gender and in fact they may have never questioned their gender. Not only do they not have any experience to draw upon but they start to question how they fit into all of this. A lot of people are uncomfortable thinking about these things.
QuoteI'm feeling a strong urge to change, and a strong urge to be cautious.
This is very much how my process is going. Laser hair removal was first since I knew I wouldn't regret never having to shaving again even if I remained male. HRT was a really tough decision but I had a few months before anything permanent happened I a needed to know. Now the caution is about bigger things like various surgeries.
QuoteI think what's been puzzling me over the years was that it came in waves
I really think that this is the nature of being human. If you've ever had a chance to observe your emotions they tend to rise and fall like waves. Most things in our lives are not constant but are much more like waves.
Quotethe important thing is that if you transition you stay you, not change to try be a stereotype of a gender.
My whole life I felt like I was searching for truth. I looked outside myself and inside myself and finally came to realize the truth I was looking for was to move out of the lie that I was living and be myself. I feel that this is the core of transition.
QuoteI expect to end up as a dungarees'n'boots purple-haired kind of gal who still sings bass
At times I feel really girly and want to dress to the nines but most of the time I'm a pretty laid back person. Back in the day I loved to wear OP when it was surfer wear and now I mostly wear Carharrt in guy mode. What I realized was the Carharrt make really cute casual women's clothes too and that really fit my personality. We all have to play games and work the system to get what we need but you don't have to compromise who you are in the process.
yes indeed (to joshany12). This came up in the film I was posting about - her mum was admitting it was easier for her that her "son" had become in her mind "my son, who likes women, plus bumps" and that she didn't have to deal with friends' questions about "him" being gay.
I don't know many trans folk here in the UK, but oddly enough, all of them that I know identify as bisexual - even though some of them didn't until post-transition.
How all this has come up to the surface to breathe is the realisation that a great part of what I thought were sexuality/orientation issues for me have always been gender issues instead. I've always been attracted to some men and some women (and these days, some who don't identify as either). And completely separate from that, I've always partly identified as female, and suppressed it, and it's sneaked out in all sorts of cunning ways that I'm now looking back and laughing in astonishment at.
oh yoxi, i see so much of myself in you/ you in myself ect ;)
i am currently trying to separate in my own mind the feelings i have for the female body (the desire to have the body) from romantic feelings (do i want to be with the body) which is tough but ill get there eventually XD
How much I'll want to play depends on where I end up living and how safe it feels. It's no coincidence that I'm about to move across country and start a new-ish life for myself, living on my own. I've got a cottage on the back of a pub in a small seaside town, and the landlord is pretty young and laid back and friendly. I'm not sure how he'll be if I start growing boobs, but I've got time to worry about that if and when. Meanwhile, I have a friend who lives a couple of hours from where I'm moving to who's going through similar issues, and we've talked about him coming to visit for a weekend so we can do girly stuff together - I'm well into toenail painting, for example, and his wife gets freaked out when he does it. So I'll have someone I know to play with :).
I wasn't kidding about the "getting clothes tips from local dykes" thing - I really like some of their clothes - of course, finding it for a 32" inside leg will be entertaining!
Or people are scared
People in general hate, or fear, change in any way.
You simply have to get to the point where you don't feel like you should have to explain yourself anymore. I think that if you have followed my posts you may have witnessed this very difficult (and probably very fast) evolution of thought.
Of course, this mental state makes it alot more difficult to get the help we need so that we may become comfortable with our bodies (the docs want us to be screwed up!), so the process is difficult, and, as Caith mentioned, can be viewed as a major inconvenience. Some of us are more socially binary than others, this does not make one any more or less trans or cis or andro-anything.
Labels! Whatever ::)
Over twenty years ago, a lovely lady I dated in Chicago for several weeks remarked to me that I had a "very feminine sensuality". She was absolutely correct, of course. She just didn't know how correct she was, or why it was so pronounced.
What Film are we talking about? I just got done watching a show called "our america." The trans episode was ok but not the greatest. It makes the same mistake that mother other media endorses. It mainly has people who knew since they were trans from an early age. Not that there is anything wrong with their stories, but this is the reason why I went so deep into doubt and thought I was a TS fraud.
The film's called She's A Boy I Knew (hence the thread title ;)) - available from Outcast Films (see Caith's link above).
One of my most favourite friends, who sadly now live a long way away, had really outlandish dress sense. I loved her for it. It displayed her character. Once we were walking in the hospital corridor and a little girl asked her ' Excuse me why are you dressed as a clown', "because I am my dear," was the reply.
Cindy
;D
I remember when I was a North London hippy in the 80's, I used to love it when kids would ask their mums "why's that man got long hair?" and the mums wouldn't know how to answer.
I also had a magic moment once in Bristol when I was in my 20's, probably at my most androgynous in terms of clothes and look in general, I was walking past a building site and one of the roofers came out with the classic "can't tell if it's a boy or a girl, huhuh!" - but I'd been reading my fabulous Furry Freak Brothers religiously, so I was finally able to use the classic comeback to this, which was "why don't you suck my dick and find out?" - his mates laughed him down, and I was a happy boygirl that day. Damn, I miss that floppy felt hat. where did it go? :).
I do find it amusing how clothes are supposed to define gender. Ok I like to look nice but it's for special times, I usually wear trackies and a T at home, but no way would I post a pic of that, if I went down to the local pub last night for dinner like that, for some reason most of the staff know me and are really cute and we chat about things.
I do like to look 'feminine' but it's a look. I really don't think that women in general are addicted to a 'girly' look, but for example this weekend was the Adelaide Cup horse racing carnival and yes, you couldn't see a women who wasn't in heels, cute dress, nice make up and a cute hat. But its fun, not a uniform.
I have to admit that I find it incredibly difficult to understand people who cross dress. In no way is that meant in an insulting or derogatory way. OK for woman wearing trouser suits etc I really don't think it is cross dressing; more being able to express yourself, and after all you are in public. For males wanting to wear so called 'female' attire in private, I have to admit, while fully accepting and supporting of it, I don't understand it. Please as I said I don't understand but I do accept.
Funny world
Cindy
Interesting - why do you think you feel differently about men doing it from women doing it? Aside from it being socially acceptable for women to wear men's clothes in a way that it isn't for men to wear women's? What's the difference for you?
Quote from: Caith on March 15, 2011, 10:20:15 AM
What percentage of modern women *ever* wear a dress or skirt, these days?
This is just as stupid a stereotype as the idea that to be female you have to wear dresses, high heels and plaster on the slap, because I see plenty of women wearing skirts and dresses. Admitedly less so in the winter because it's freezing, but now the weather has started to get better they are on the increase.
To put it simply to be female all you have to do is be female, and anything you do is feminine because it's a woman that's doing it.
I just treat clothing the same as any other girl, I wear what I want depending on where I'm going, what i'm doing and what the weather is like. It's fun to mix things up...A dress over skinny jeans is a great look, especially teamed with some chucks...emotastic. Though I've now noticed I actually feel short in my converse now! how did that happen.
Clothing is essentially window dressing, it's how you see your self that affects how others truly see you.
Clothing plays a dual paradoxical role (to my mind, anyway) of display and hiding. You get to display aspects of yourself you want people to see, and hide those you don't (and I mean personality, not just body parts :)). I've got no idea how I'm going to want to end up dressing, because I've got no idea how I'm going to end up looking, and how I'll feel when I get there! But I'm warming to the idea of playing with it.
Strangely enough, when you start having boobies, you suddenly what to show them off a bit...even if it's not in a cleavage flashing way.
Quote from: yoxi on March 16, 2011, 04:39:47 AM
Interesting - why do you think you feel differently about men doing it from women doing it? Aside from it being socially acceptable for women to wear men's clothes in a way that it isn't for men to wear women's? What's the difference for you?
As I said I do not understand. I have no problems with it I just don't understand it. Maybe what I'm trying to say in a very bad way is that I do not understand people who cross dress for 'fetish' reasons. I have no problems with it and please please don't mistake not understanding with any form of rejection or censorship. I do not understand the 'joy' of masochism or of sadism, as long as it is mutually OK, fine with me. But I don't understand it.
And I'm not equating any of these past times.
If you want to, do it with my full blessing, or rather complete indifference. I just don't understand the desire, and I suspect without the desire it cannot be understood.
Cindy
Quote from: Helena on March 16, 2011, 04:54:41 AM
Strangely enough, when you start having boobies, you suddenly what to show them off a bit...even if it's not in a cleavage flashing way.
Nearly every woman I know says she hates men looking at her boobs, when she is wearing a push up bra 'guaranteed' by the manufacturer to give two extra sizes and a low cut blouse. The advert even said you use no push at work, use the second push at a dinner date, and the third is for a night club when you really want to impress. I did hear on a local beach by to well endowed teens sun baking topless, I hate it how all of these guys look at my boobs but don't talk to me.
Sometimes Guys can't win.
Usually with women
:laugh:Cindy
Hee hee, so true Cindy. I like showing off my figure, but every time some guy gives me the once over I just think "perv".
Unless of course I'm secretly perving at him, in that case he'd get some lee way. :laugh:
Yes, men and women are both the victims of cultural conditioning, which is really tiresome. And it does feel to me like these days, the deal is that anything women do, say, or think is automatically praiseworthy (unless they're a 'celeb', of course), and anything men do, say, or think (even if it's exactly the same things) is automatically suspect and/or laughable. And of course we're not allowed to get angry about this, because only women are allowed to be angry these days too! </arargh>
Meh.
I don't know whether I'll want to show off my boobs, if I get 'em. I'll be 50 by then, and with my weird anatomy there's a good chance they'll squint, so I'll just let them lurk in the background and be a noticeable bump, I think. But who knows? If I turn out to be packing heat, I might flaunt it :).
I hate guys wearing baggy board shorts. All male life savers should have to wear see thorough budgie smuggler's. Seems fair and I would def be down the beach between the two flags. Might even have to practice mouth to mouth or mouth to ?
Sinful Cindy
Quote from: yoxi on March 16, 2011, 05:27:19 AM
Yes, men and women are both the victims of cultural conditioning, which is really tiresome. And it does feel to me like these days, the deal is that anything women do, say, or think is automatically praiseworthy (unless they're a 'celeb', of course), and anything men do, say, or think (even if it's exactly the same things) is automatically suspect and/or laughable. And of course we're not allowed to get angry about this, because only women are allowed to be angry these days too! </arargh>
Meh.
I don't know whether I'll want to show off my boobs, if I get 'em. I'll be 50 by then, and with my weird anatomy there's a good chance they'll squint, so I'll just let them lurk in the background and be a noticeable bump, I think. But who knows? If I turn out to be packing heat, I might flaunt it :).
Listen teenager, when you get then flaunt them, I'm 58.
Cindy
Nah, it'll probably be like Steve Martin says, I'll just sit at home all day and play with them :).
Seriously though, the boobs are secondary for me, it's the Schrödinger's Genitals experiment I'm interested in - I want to open the box and find a live pussy ;).
Oh, and I like budgie smugglers if the budgie's a mackaw... but baggy shorts can be a turn-on too, the imagination is often more fun than the reality, let's face it!
What percentage of modern women *ever* wear a dress or skirt, these days?
At WallMart: none. At a major law firm, international bank or the opera: most.
Quote from: tekla on March 16, 2011, 10:54:16 AM
or the opera: most.
Unless they're playing "trouser roles" :).
I meant out in the audience rattling their jewelry.
I know, I know... I can't resist playing word association football.
Quote from: CindyJames on March 16, 2011, 05:36:35 AM
Listen teenager, when you get then flaunt them, I'm 58.
Cindy
I strongly agree with Cindy. I'm 53, and I've finally got 'em, and I
*DO* flaunt them whenever I'm dressed.
Heh, thanks - this ongoing conversation I've been having here on several threads over the last week has been gradually sorting me out. I'm feeling less like I have to know exactly what's going to happen, because I'm more sure what I want to happen, if that makes sense. So I don't need to know what I'll be wearing a year from now, I just know the direction I'm headed and what to do next. Move house, arrive, find local resources, get on with it. Facial hair is first on the list, then getting my girl friends to take me shopping somewhere that caters for tall funky women and seeing what grabs me :) - then GP, shrink, letters, blardie-blah. Meanwhile, make a new home, get a job, get on with the rest of my life too.
It's my usual MO when I'm unsure about a situation - try and find out everything!!! But I'm relaxing into this now.
try www.joebrowns.co.uk (http://www.joebrowns.co.uk) they might have a few bits right up your street hun.
Or depending on your size you can get joe browns in plus sizes from www.classicconfidence.co.uk (http://www.classicconfidence.co.uk)
like Helena I wear a lot of Joe browns gear - but then we decided a long time ago when we first met up that I probably am Helena from the future and I've put on a bit of weight in my old age. ;)
Gotta love women's clothing descriptions: "Uncompromisingly authentic and great with a strappy top or a tee." ;D
! Clothes ::)
As a "tried to be crossdresser" once, I can say with no authority at all that the only reason to dress in women's clothing is to help people identify you as a woman- perhaps even to help yourself identify as such. Or, like, to help you feel more womanly or hot.
Oh, hell with it! I have a shirt and jeans on, and I don't even really think this can be called guy mode anymore.
I haven't been able to wear jeans for 20 years due to "waterworks issues" - I'm curious to see whether getting "rearranged" will fix that (in fact I could probably specifically request it...) :).
Oh god, I've just had a sudden dismal vision of myself a year from now in skinny jeans and a hippy smock :-\ - that's it, I'm becoming a fireman instead.
May as well, you only have to pay about $20,000 + for the procedure (or is it all covered in the UK?).
Quote from: EmmaM on March 16, 2011, 05:52:20 PM
May as well, you only have to pay about $20,000 + for the procedure (or is it all covered in the UK?).
It is covered - IF you can be patient enough to wait about 3 to 5 years.
Most can't. and in any case our prices are rather cheaper. We can get a decent UK surgeon for between £8000 and £10000.
Ah and Yoxi - we will have to talk about that. I too had some minor "issues", which I didn't know then, but know now, were clues that I was an undiagnosed partial androgen insensitive intersex.
I don't know yet - I think it depends on how much of a hurry you're in. It is available on the NHS, but it can take around 4 years from initial GP referral to surgery (partly conservatism, partly waiting lists) - by which time the economy will have collapsed and I'll have to pay for it anyway, so I'm contemplating going the private route to cut down the waiting.
Oops, cross-posted.
[TMI alert] My urethra got damaged when I was a kid, due to inappropriate behaviour from adults - I've had to have it "rebored" a few times over my life, it'd be nice to lose most of it! The jeans issue is that it runs nearer the surface (i.e. my perineum) than it does on most men, and that thick double seam you get on jeans crotches digs in something awful if I sit down in them. This is why I've spent the last 20 years in karate trousers or chinos (well, also for reasons of considerable style) :).