I consider myself more athiest in the sense that I do not believe in any god or gods with omnipotent powers over Earth, but in a way I do believe in an afterlife. I've talked to many athiests who claim hatred against Christians or anyone believing in a god. Many will accuse Christians of stupidly accepting everything they hear as truth and the only evidence they have is Faith, and that the only goal of Christians is to try and convert everyone they meet.
I have known a few crazy fundamentalists, but more often I have met perfectly kind and compassionate Christians. They can happily accept that God loves them no matter what they do, and if they live their life right they will be able to enter the gates of Heaven.
I find myself feeling jealous in a way that they can have absolute faith in that there is a powerful being that will always love them and that they are destined for complete happiness when they die. I wish I believed that there was a God, and that the afterlife is a loving place where I will meet with all of the loved ones I had in life and spend an eternity happy. I WANT to believe that so much, but I just don't.
Does anyone else feel a similar sadness or envy regarding a lack of faith? If so, what do you do or say to yourself in order to keep those feelings at bay?
Thanks, but no thanks. Given the choice - as we all have - between reason and faith, I'll take reason.
It is not good that people have to connect values, morals, ethics and virtue to a promise of an after life. Christian culture that came from Europe is culture and not necessarily a religion. Most American atheists still hold christian like values and not because the believe or are promised an after life. It is pure reason to treat your fellow human with respect.
I am more agnostic. I tend not to care if there is a god or afterlife.
To me, having faith in the bible is about following the examples of Jesus to have a fulfilling life on earth, so you can feel good about yourself.
I might not believe bible stories are literally true, but that doesn't mean I can't read the bible for guidance on how to cope with life's problems.
Many Christians don't really even pay attention to the bible or even practice the religion. Heck, before my "falling from grace" all I thought was that there was a God that loved me and a Heaven to go to when I died (pretty much ignored the bible all together under the assumption that it was crap written by guys putting in their own agenda and calling it "the word of God"). Now that I don't believe in God, when I'm depressed and hopeless I wish I believed that at least I had someone who always loved me.
As for Athiests and agnostics generally holding Christan values, the same christians would probably still have the values they held as Athiests as well. You're right, it is reason that makes people respect one-another. Christians are just as likely to be jerks as a person in any other religion, people won't follow the commandments if it isn't convenient to them. Rarely have I ever seen a person say, "It's a sin to lie, so I'm not going to".
But as long as people actually ARE being perfectly decent to each other, does it really matter what they think is going to happen when they die? Just as long as they can be respectful, the motive isn't important. As long as the person is content in their belief in God, why hurt them by saying, "Reason is greater than faith!" when they would be the same kind person even if they were an athiest?
I don't see the same outcomes at all. The world has progressed much more through reason than it has through faith, matter of fact, the great age of faith is also known as The Dark Ages.
I used to feel like this but then I realised that I don't actually believe in religion so why would I feel envious of something I don't believe is real or logical.
Not at all. >:-)
But what I am seeing is Athiests being cynical people. I am a cynical athiest, and sometimes I just wish I could give up just a little bit of reason if it meant I could be happy. I'm sick of being sad and cynical, I want to feel like no matter how much Hell I go through on Earth, I will still have a heaven to go to. I want to feel that no matter how few friends I have, God will always love me. There is nothing happy about dying, being buried in the ground, and that is the end. Granted, once you are dead you wouldn't be capable of caring what your state of being is, it's a sad thought to know that is the end. If I were on my death bed, I would want the comfort of knowing I'd soon be in Heaven.
I don't know. Maybe I'm just different. I don't personally think it's stupid or weak to desire faith.
Quote from: Yakshini on April 06, 2011, 09:26:14 PM
But what I am seeing is Athiests being cynical people. I am a cynical athiest, and sometimes I just wish I could give up just a little bit of reason if it meant I could be happy.
I've been both. I can tell you now that being cynical, but knowing how to achieve results, is twice as good as having false hopes. The catch is that if you have false hopes, you don't KNOW that they are false.
There is nothing envious about faith. It is like a drug. Like any drug, it feels good when you are on it, but it ruins you. With faith, you get to believe in anything you want, despite the fact that it's probably not true. With realism, you get to believe in what is most likely to be true, but the truth of the universe is very ugly to look at.
Faith feels good, but there is no practicality to it. Realism is the only practical way to approach the universe. But looking at everything realistically isn't very good for optimism. In fact, I've noticed that most people who are optimistic have a tendency to ignore the real evidence of the situation at hand.
Isn't it possible to be reasonable and have faith at the same time? Even when I was Christian myself (despite the vagueness of my Christianity) I still had reason. I didn't ignore the fact that evolution is real, I didn't think God had any real influence in my life, just that he was there and that he loved me. I was sad when I stopped believing in God. Humans are quick to abandon others, but I was happy when I thought at least there was one being that would ALWAYS love me. Without that, I had to come to the reality that the simplest thing could cause the people that matter to me to outright abandon me and that I could literally end up with nobody.
When I believed in God, all I thought was that I was loved and that I would be happy after death. Nothing else mattered to me, in fact I thought just about everything else about the religion was B-S. All I'm saying is that I miss thinking those things, even if to some people, just having faith meant I was being ignorant. It made me happy.
The only faith you need is faith in yourself. You need to be able to know that what small role you have played in your life has in fact changed the world we live in. And never have any regrets for there are no good actions and there are no bad actions, there are merely actions.
Quote from: RabbitsOfTheWorldUnite on April 06, 2011, 11:17:52 PM
The only faith you need is faith in yourself. You need to be able to know that what small role you have played in your life has in fact changed the world we live in. And never have any regrets for there are no good actions and there are no bad actions, there are merely actions.
That's a really nice way of thinking. Maybe that's the type of thing I need to remember when I'm feeling down.
Quote from: tekla on April 06, 2011, 06:00:40 PM
I don't see the same outcomes at all. The world has progressed much more through reason than it has through faith, matter of fact, the great age of faith is also known as The Dark Ages.
Maybe, but the "Dark Ages" is something of a misnomer.
And never have any regrets for there are no good actions and there are no bad actions, there are merely actions.
Rape and murder, or building hospitals and teaching literacy. Yeah, I sure don't see much difference in actions at all.
Quote from: tekla on April 06, 2011, 11:53:10 PM
And never have any regrets for there are no good actions and there are no bad actions, there are merely actions.
Rape and murder, or building hospitals and teaching literacy. Yeah, I sure don't see much difference in actions at all.
Unfortunately, it is a proven fact that the most significant advances of society come during times of war, and not during times of peace. Those who can make it through times of despair, learn to thrive when it's pleasant!
Typically those who live though war are broken. It tends to take a generation for any real social stability to return.
In order to get out of the line of fire of atheists vs. theists, I'm inclined to call myself a non-theist. I don't have a problem with experiencing strong faith (which is something healthier than "certainty" to me) without needing anyone to have made anything. The cosmos rolls on, and how I treat it and its inhabitants (of which I am one) affects how happy I am.
I'm inclined to believe not in an afterlife, but in rebirth - I find it hard to believe that a little thing like death will stop some of my stronger habits from hurtling along into another life! I don't know, but that's how it feels to me. I'm definitely not envious of people who seem to have faith of the "certainty" variety - it seems to breed rigidity - but I'm envious of people who seem to be better people than me (or who have less facial hair...) ::).
QuoteThere is nothing happy about dying, being buried in the ground, and that is the end
There are things more important than life. Ask Socrates. The trouble with today's culture is it puts life above everything else, the world was not always that way.
Quote from: Yakshini on April 06, 2011, 11:13:53 PM
Isn't it possible to be reasonable and have faith at the same time?
It's possible to have faith in reason (that is, faith that the rules of logic can uncover the truth of the universe)
But then, that would be getting into philosophy. If you were a philosopher, you probably wouldn't be an atheist to begin with.
Quote from: Yakshini on April 06, 2011, 09:26:14 PM
But what I am seeing is Athiests being cynical people. I am a cynical athiest, and sometimes I just wish I could give up just a little bit of reason if it meant I could be happy. I'm sick of being sad and cynical, I want to feel like no matter how much Hell I go through on Earth, I will still have a heaven to go to. I want to feel that no matter how few friends I have, God will always love me. There is nothing happy about dying, being buried in the ground, and that is the end. Granted, once you are dead you wouldn't be capable of caring what your state of being is, it's a sad thought to know that is the end. If I were on my death bed, I would want the comfort of knowing I'd soon be in Heaven.
I don't know. Maybe I'm just different. I don't personally think it's stupid or weak to desire faith.
.
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I understand where you're coming from. Personally I'm agnostic (and have always been a bit of a philosopher). For me it came down to a choice: Do I value what is real (and often uncomfortable) more? Or do I value
feeling good/safe/loved/being-rewarded-after-this-life...essentially...having faith in something...even if I'm just imagining it?
.
I agree, it would be easier. It would...feel nice...it would feel very nice to have faith again. Blind faith. Beliefs independant of, and ignorant of facts. Unfortunately, such a thing runs counter to what I value.
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Growing up, I was around some pretty paranoid extremist people/churches. I saw first-hand what that sort of faith can do unchecked. I saw the harm, the hate, and the ability to self justify anything those people wanted to justify (often hurtful to others, despite their other supposed beliefs)...because they weren't bound by anything factual or real. If they believed it, it must be so...and there was no convincing them otherwise. I would never consciously choose to be that sort of person.
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Those were some pretty extreme people though. Not all people who have faith get so very lost. But from what I've seen, the vast majority still have very blurred lines between reality and what they choose to believe. It doesn't have to be that way, but people who can actively make the distinction and still retain some sort of faith are quite rare. In 37 years, I've met exactly 2 people who were able to accomplish that. It's not an easy balancing act.
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As an agnostic, I guess I don't see myself as cynical. Realistic perhaps. Skeptical , yes. Cynical though, goes a bit beyond that. I suppose cynicism is when all hope is gone. Some athiests do get that way, but they don't necessarily have to. An absence of faith doesn't necessarily have to mean a complete absence of hope.
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But I do agree, that it would feel nice to be free to throw out this reality and substitute my own for a bit. ;) I just can't do it anymore, and feel that I'm being true to myself and to my values. Not even in exchange for that feel-good Pollyanna innocence (and ignorance) that comes with it.
If one only have a theist's background, and that one's status of being athest is just a matter of disagreeing with anything related to theist, then apart from disagreeing, there is no view that goes beyond theist, in order to have faith with, thus naturally one is in need of a basis of faith, seeing the theist possess faith, envy arises. This is only a natural reaction.
I do not envy them their faith. The most comforting thought I know of is "one day, I will simply no longer exist". The idea of an afterlife is unbearably horrific to me.
If you're a theist, the answers to the "big questions" - 'why am I here?' 'what's the point of it all?' 'how should I live my life?' 'where did this all come from?' - are all pretty simple. They've mostly already been answered for you, and you don't have to really think about them if you don't want to. Some people find that comforting.
The universe as the atheist sees it has no less potential beauty, but it's more complicated. Some people find that uncomfortable.
Richard Feynman really captures my opinion on the matter here:
Quote"Poets say science takes away from the beauty of the stars - mere globs of gas atoms. I too can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more?
The vastness of the heavens stretches my imagination - stuck on this carousel my little eye can catch one - million - year - old light. A vast pattern - of which I am a part... What is the pattern, or the meaning, or the why? It does not do harm to the mystery to know a little about it. For far more marvelous is the truth than any artists of the past imagined it. Why do the poets of the present not speak of it? What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?"
and here:
Quote"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil - which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama."
I am an atheist and, in no way, shape or form, am I jealous of anyone who has faith. I do have to admit, however, xtians have a keen ability to cherry pick from their gospel. Just go into the bible and grab what you need for your agenda and forget about the other things you had to read to get to it. Murder, rape, incest, genocide, on and on and on. Angry god, jealous god... Oh, but wait. "love they neighbor". Found something I can use. "But, I hate my neighbor"....Well, then catch him working on the Sabbath. Need some stones?
kyril, I love this "beat poem" by Tim Minchin - it's contentious, funny, and contains some swearing (in case that bothers people). It echoes Richard Feynman's take on this (I wish he'd been my dad - I cried when he died, and we'd never even met) - see it through to the end, though:
Tim Minchin: Storm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk#ws)
Graphic subtitles version (for the hard of Australian) :)
Tim Minchin - Storm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw#)
Atheist is a position of comfort that is direct result of escaping from the ills of theism, but it only find comfort by comparing itself against theist, by the faithlessness that arrived, not that it is a position of comfort with the many questions of life. This deficiency causes some to find unease with its status, and thus admire the faith (not the content) that exist in people.
Cute video Yoxi, I liked it a lot :) If ever I get bummed about being an atheist, this is the video I watch:
Science Saved My Soul. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk#)
I've gone from a straight-up atheist to spiritually-accepting and curious. I don't believe there's a being conscious of every human's thought but I guess I kind of feel some guiding force or energy... I can't explain it without sounding like a nutjob, but hey, all religion sounds like the creation of a bunch of nutjobs. I guess my religious ideas conform the most with Taoism. Yeah... I really like Taoism...
it seems to me that "faith" is a suspension of reality and giving away your presumed control
There are all kinds of atheists. I call myself a Spiritual Humanist, it seems more socially acceptable and distracts the haters.
I just think of 'faith' as being what you have when you don't have certainty. It doesn't have to be faith in a creator god (or any divine beings at all), it can be faith in the nature of reality being a certain way. Being tiny beings in a vast-o cosmos (which might itself just be one of many) it's not like there's a lot we can be really certain of anyway, on the grand scale. The problem I have with many religions (or at least many religious groups) is that they demand a certainty that they *call* faith, but it's really a big on/off switch; I think faith is much more a gradually developing confidence in things being a certain way, tested against experience, intellect and intuition (and if it's not all three, someone is kidding themselves) - it's not just a back-stage pass to the in-group. It's personal.
I would rather be Athiests than envy them. The Athiests has more faith than they do just don't see it. all of you are right in what you say. I have seen great reasoning in this forum. blessed is the athiest for not believing in their Gods for the wise hath said in their heart there is no God.
I am only universal elements. I was given the gift of consciousness. It must be a gift , I haven`t taken myself. I have always existed and always will. I will live as long as I am in the consious thoughts of others as who I am today.
I cannot sit back and watch you search for truth any longer. This is a good start. http://youtu.be/AanQ2mY2jjc (http://youtu.be/AanQ2mY2jjc)
For yrs i have been telling people about the voicesinyourhead (not outloud voices) and how they are those who passed on to the next world and are trying to guide us in all we do. Jesus or yahshua is one of them. We also as youth had many dejavue's which were rememberences before we got here trying to alert us that from whence we came to where we will return. Those dejavue's are times we wanted to be able to remember when we got to this world alerting us that this world is only a small part of where we are from and where we will return. Now everyone called me crazy Danielle but i know that when i listen to that voice i never have troubles but when i ignore it i suffer much. today i have basically surrendered all to above and just ride the surfboard of life and go for the ride and worry not for any thing here on earth because life here is but a dream from whence we came to where we will return.
I could mention a 1000 things and many of them where times when i didn't listen and finally realized to start listening. Then on top of the times i didn't listen there are tens of thousands of times i did listen and these days i just do as above wants and not my own will. Yea i do stuff each day and much of it is what am i going to do and then the answer comes to me and i do it. When i build i never plan ahead. I let each day tell me how to continue and so i could never build with a blueprint because my life has no blueprint.
Many here seek acceptence from each other but that really is a futile effort because it is above who you will spend eternity and each of us are as ships passing in the night to maybe or maybe not bump into one another. Don't get hung up on the stuff of the world because it is as a drop in the bucket of our existence.
When i write i write to me if what i write speaks to another then so be it. Many might think i am self centered but really it is about hearing what i am writing to others that i am the one who must listen the most. Many times we try to tell others stuff when in reality it is ourselves who need to hear what we try to tell others. If what we say does speak to another then that is from above using us as a vehicle trying to reach that person who what we say speaks to another.
When i read anothers writing i seek to find that which is for me and that isn't a self centered thing it is a seeking the message from above thing. I know i can get messages from above from anybody who could be an unknowledgeable vehicle for that message.
alas this thread was the real message to myself that reminds me to stay on track and know i am not in charge but i am to continue to be guided and do that which needs to be done and many times when we do things we do stuff to finish others, who passed on, to finish their unfinished work..
Be wary of the ego or id as we can become self absorbed and feel we are a legend in our own minds. Its best to surrender self as much as possible to allow above to be able to speak to you more clearly. Then you will get your answers.
Be an surrendered individual and don't follow your peers or you will get caught in the trap of this superficial world seeking acceptence from others who like yourself are also seeking the truth. To do that is like the blind leading the blind..
Now call me crazy to this superficial world but know i am surrendered to above. If what i say speaks to you know it is NOT ME as i am just the vehicle for that message from above.
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Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return
I an not envious of theists at all. And I refuse to call myself an athiest as that would mean I am the deviant. I am an empericist and I accept judgement based on objective observation. If a theist wants to consider me stubborn that's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. If evidence were to arise that some omnipitant being was responsible for the creation of anything, then I would accept that. However theists rigidly cling to their notion regardless of a better explanation of the facts. The burden of proof lies upon the supporter of the theory. In order for a hypothesis to become a theory, it has to be supported by evidence. Even hypotheses are laid out to be tested after considerable research. And just to be clear, disproving one theory does not prove another.
You could ask me to explain a lot of things, such as consciousness. I am willing to say that the brain is a rather complex organ and not completely understood however I'm reasonably sure that consciousness comes from our brain. If you want to throw a diety giving the human body a soul into the ring as your hypothesis, you need to provide the proof to support such a claim. I am not envious of theists in the slightest.
If you need to believe in a cosmic nanny to keep you in line because otherwise you would be a complete disgrace of a human being than that's perfectly alright. I do not envy you. I have found that I am perfectly able to do what is reasonable simply for it's own sake. It might be easier for me. I propose that I have certain social instincts ingrained in me. They are what guide me and tell me what is right and wrong. Humans are social creatures. Those with terrible character flaws (when it came to survival) were less successful and those flaws were weeded out. As social animals we have a complusion to do what is "right." Look at wolves and monkeys and prarie dogs. They are all social creatures and seem to have their own code of conduct that best suits their survival. Is it unreasonable to say that we as humans developed a genetic predisposition to behave in such a way as to benefit our own survival?
I don't need an almighty. I don't need spiritual guides. I am content to be driven by instinct. And when I die, I will be perfectly happy being relieved of the burden of existence.
Kia Ora,
"And I will not prove that I exist..." Said God [to the believers] "...For without 'faith' I'm NOTHING!" ::) So what's there to be envious of ???
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on April 30, 2011, 11:19:30 PM
Kia Ora,
"And I will not prove that I exist..." Said God [to the believers] "...For without 'faith' I'm NOTHING!" ::) So what's there to be envious of ???
Metta Zenda :)
It pretty much sounds like a built in excuse for why there is no proof of divine existence. I'm not envious of anyone who would be so deluded as to believe such things.
Quote from: Maddie Secutura on April 30, 2011, 11:51:55 PM
It pretty much sounds like a built in excuse for why there is no proof of divine existence. I'm not envious of anyone who would be so deluded as to believe such things.
Kia Ora Maddie,
::)"So what's there to be envious of???
NOTHING! ...now do you get it??? ;)
Metta Zenda :)
Yeah I get it, I was agreeing with you.
My mother, often in exhasperation, says to me, "For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who don't there no proof is enough."
I wish I could free her from her psychotic delusions but alas if she want's to be a stockholm victim of indoctrination then all I can do is let her.
Kia Ora Maddie,
::) I've nothing against those who have faith in an almighty, just so long as it's not 'blind' faith...
I didn't grow up in a religious family, my parents would have been atheists or at least atheistic agnostics.. Church was for wedding, funerals and jumble sales...
However I did attend Sunday school as a child, because this was a form of 'free' baby sitting for most parents...
I now describe myself as an atheistic agnostic Buddhist, in other word I have an open mind and if there was ever a chance of finding tangible proof of an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly benevolent god's existence, I would welcome it with open arms, but I know this is never going to happen and I repeat NEVER !
My brain is not wired that way...
Metta Zenda :)
But isn't all faith blind faith?
I know what you actually meant in terms of leading one to be follow religious teachings without question. But if one were to really question it, to look at their own faith as objectively as they would someone else's they would see it's rediculous nature.
I began questioning my religion in elementary school. I was raised catholic and went to catholic school. I remember my teacher saying that christianity is the one true religion. My immediate response was, "Well don't all the religions think they're the right one?" My teacher said, "Yes but ours is actually the right one."
I will not raise my children in any religion. I will let them make up their own minds whether or not to think there is a need for a diety. I don't hate theists. I may find them misguided but I bear no hatred toward them. Every one I've talked to seems to believe that the existence of their god is the null hypothesis. That for anything else to be true, that must be disproved. It is not my job to disprove your theory to make you not believe. But if you want me to accept your god's existence as a fact, you need to present the evidence that supports it.
Long ago, gods were responsible for everything that wasn't understood. A god dragged the sun across the sky. Now we know the earth spins. A god made the earth. Now we know the earth formed from the ring of rubble around our baby sun. A god made all the life on earth. Now we know life evolved from simple life forms into the complexity we see today.
I find more beauty in the complexity of scientific study than any creation myth or diety.
Kia Ora Maddie,
I can't remember where I originally read this take on what faith is...
"There was a tightrope walker, who was so good that he
could walk between two twenty stories building on a
tight rope with a balancing pole. Thousands of people
would watch him perform his breathtaking feat. After
he walked across the building he would have his
assistant sit on his shoulder and he would proceed to
walk across the building. Everybody were amazed and
gave him a thunderous applause. He asked them whether
they believed that he could do it again. The crowd
said, "Yes, we believe that you can!" After a while he
asked the crowd again, "Now, who wants to volunteer to
get on my shoulder?" With that the crowd became
silent!"
SUCCESS PRINCIPLES
There is a difference between Belief and Faith. We
can believe what we see. In the above story, the crowd
believed in the tightrope walker because they saw him
perform the feat. But when he asked them "Who wants to
get on my shoulder?" everyone was silent. You see, the
crowd had Belief but they did not have Faith. This
story clearly illustrates the difference between
belief and having faith.
Keep the 'faith' Maddie... ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Sarah7 on May 01, 2011, 12:38:00 AM
I'm a skeptic and,yes, I have occasionally felt envious of those with a stable system of beliefs - theists and atheists alike. There is something disconcerting about not having that kind of absolute certainty that characterizes other systems of thought, an instability that can in your worst moments make you question yourself endlessly. But in the end I like being flexible, being capable of regularly changing my perspective and opinions, of not being forced to see things as inherently true or good or bad or evil or right or wrong or whatever. I like making up my own mind using the available information to create a jury-rigged, assumption laden, temporary and transient truth. I like uncertainty. A big part of belief is taking questions out back behind the chemical shed and shooting them in the head. Let the questions live people, let them live! ;)
I'm an atheist, and I don't have a stable system of beliefs, per se. (Sure, I have a pretty stable system of ethics and principles - I have beliefs about what
should be - but I don't have unfounded beliefs about what
is.)
Atheism was the natural result of skepticism for me. I originally called myself agnostic, but I came to the conclusion that I couldn't justify privileging some unfounded beliefs over others - that all potential beliefs without empirical evidence for or against them were objectively equal, and so it would just be silly to treat religion-type claims as somehow special. If I was going to hold open the possibility of the existence of a triumvirate zombie god, I might as well hold open the possibility of invisible sock-eating dryer monkeys. If I was going to believe that there was a naturalistic explanation for my unpaired sock collection, intellectual consistency demanded that I also believe in a naturalistic explanation for other phenomena until presented with evidence to the contrary.
But I don't actively disbelieve in a deity. If Jesus showed up in my apartment right now and turned my water into wine, I'd be a convert (although I do prefer strawberry daiquiris, Jesus, if you're considering taking me up on the offer). I just don't think that religious claims are special; my attitude toward deities is no different than my attitude toward dryer monkeys or the Easter Bunny. It's all just lack of belief due to lack of evidence.
I certainly do not feel any envy for people with faith.
I do question how people can have total belief in something that is unprovable. But its their choice and as long as they are happy with it then let them carry on.
But don't try and force those beliefs on to me.
Kia Ora,
::) I have 'faith' in the Buddha's Dharma, but I also have doubt and determination...The following quote explains my situation best...
"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual journey. This act is real spiritual practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place."
I guess one could also replace 'spiritual' with 'scientific' ...
Metta Zenda :)
I really can't say I envy anyone who believes in a higher power at all. It could be because I've never been religious and neither of my parents were religious, so I don't have that background of ever having believed. I once tried when I was a kid for a few reasons, but having "faith" in a higher power, for me, feels like I have to water myself down and censor my own thoughts. It feels like enslaving myself to an idea that may or may not exist...which is completely illogical for me.
That feeling of attempting to believe something with no evidence whatsoever for it beyond a book that was written thousands of years ago by multiple people during various centuries in "tribute" to a common rebel supporting a mystery cult no different from any other mystery cult, who wasn't even literate himself feels beyond silly to me, and I don't like to feel silly (or at least that kind of "close my eyes, block my ears and pretend historical and scientific fact does not exist" silly lol).
As far as the whole afterlife thing, that's something a lot of religious people often ask atheists, as though it is frightening to think of yourself rotting in the ground instead of prancing about the clouds with angels. The thought that this life is it for me doesn't really disturb me at all. It just makes me want to make the most of it.
In general, I think I look upon logic with too high a regard to ever envy faith.
I don't envy those who would get pissed off by a story about Michael and Gabriel trying to get God laid to loosen him up because he's been so up tight since Lucifer revolted.
Any of you being in combat, as in war? While in combat every body is begging to G-d, then after surviving, most everybody is back into their self assuring philosophies. Pretty funny thing to witness. Not that I love war, it did a number on me, most nigh i can be awaken by my neighbor's farting dog.
Kate
On occasion I feel envious of people with devout faith. I would love to experience blind faith for one day. To be able to believe something so strongly without a hint of skepticism would be a trip. But that isn't possible. I don't understand religious faith and I probably won't ever be able to understand it.
I grew up in a non-religious home. My mother gave us the freedom to choose what we believe instead of forcing us to believe in a G-d because we were told to. When I was in college I started reading the Bible and began attending church.
For several years I saw people crying because they were so moved by the music or message. I never was. I would often look around and wonder if anyone was actually moved or if they were all pretending because that is what they thought they should feel and how they should act.
They said they felt the holy spirit moving through the place. I never felt it or sensed anything. I gave baptism a shot hoping that would help my lack of faith. I just got wet and made others happy.
More than once I've seen suicidal young adults in crisis. Their hearts and minds shattered because they felt their sins were too great to be forgiven by this G-d. Sins that I thought reflected natural human behavior and thoughts that we all experience. One day, the pastor said either you believe the Bible in its entirety or don't believe at all. The choice for me was easy so I never went back.
I'm not envious of the guilt or pain faith causes intrapersonally or interpersonally. I'll never understand how some faiths claim to be the one and only way or the best faith or the correct option. It is not a competition. Being a part of the "winning faith" does not make you better than everyone else or one step closer to salvation or earn brownie points with G-d.
I've always been a skeptic and reason is my default. Maybe I'm envious that the people of faith can believe something so deeply without question. Maybe it is their lack of skepticism that appeals to me? Maybe I'm a control freak and their willingness and ability to submit to someone or to a "higher power" that is more knowledgeable and can resolve all my issues. Maybe I crave the easy way out. The ability to blame someone else, Satan, oppressors, demons, or Eve for my inevitable sinful nature because of damaged DNA from "the fall" for my misdeeds rather than taking responsibility for my actions.
I'm not an atheist or a theist. Not sure what I am or where I fit and I have my theories which change from time to time but I'm okay with that.
Quote from: Jakeas on June 06, 2011, 02:06:01 AM
On occasion I feel envious of people with devout faith. I would love to experience blind faith for one day. To be able to believe something so strongly without a hint of skepticism would be a trip. But that isn't possible. I don't understand religious faith and I probably won't ever be able to understand it.
I grew up in a non-religious home. My mother gave us the freedom to choose what we believe instead of forcing us to believe in a G-d because we were told to. When I was in college I started reading the Bible and began attending church.
For several years I saw people crying because they were so moved by the music or message. I never was. I would often look around and wonder if anyone was actually moved or if they were all pretending because that is what they thought they should feel and how they should act.
They said they felt the holy spirit moving through the place. I never felt it or sensed anything. I gave baptism a shot hoping that would help my lack of faith. I just got wet and made others happy.
More than once I've seen suicidal young adults in crisis. Their hearts and minds shattered because they felt their sins were too great to be forgiven by this G-d. Sins that I thought reflected natural human behavior and thoughts that we all experience. One day, the pastor said either you believe the Bible in its entirety or don't believe at all. The choice for me was easy so I never went back.
I'm not envious of the guilt or pain faith causes intrapersonally or interpersonally. I'll never understand how some faiths claim to be the one and only way or the best faith or the correct option. It is not a competition. Being a part of the "winning faith" does not make you better than everyone else or one step closer to salvation or earn brownie points with G-d.
I've always been a skeptic and reason is my default. Maybe I'm envious that the people of faith can believe something so deeply without question. Maybe it is their lack of skepticism that appeals to me? Maybe I'm a control freak and their willingness and ability to submit to someone or to a "higher power" that is more knowledgeable and can resolve all my issues. Maybe I crave the easy way out. The ability to blame someone else, Satan, oppressors, demons, or Eve for my inevitable sinful nature because of damaged DNA from "the fall" for my misdeeds rather than taking responsibility for my actions.
I'm not an atheist or a theist. Not sure what I am or where I fit and I have my theories which change from time to time but I'm okay with that.
For myself i can't understand how people can think all there is is life and death. If they do why don't they go for all they can get? I think its because people have a conscience. If there is just life and death then why have a conscience? Why not logically go after everything you can and take what you want etc etc. This is why there has to be a God and why i have to have faith in God in that one day i will understand my illogical reason to do good verses evil or going after everything for myself. The teachings of God in many religions seems to tell us we have a conscience choice to do good or evil. Yes i have a sister who is righteous and doesn't do evil and helps people and has no belief in god. However, she was raised a catholic up until 5th grade when she switched to public school due to some abuse issues.
If you believe there is no God and all there is is life and death then why do you then use your conscience to do good or maybe you don't?
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 06, 2011, 07:13:21 AM
For myself i can't understand how people can think all there is is life and death. If they do why don't they go for all they can get? I think its because people have a conscience. If there is just life and death then why have a conscience? Why not logically go after everything you can and take what you want etc etc. This is why there has to be a God and why i have to have faith in God in that one day i will understand my illogical reason to do good verses evil or going after everything for myself. The teachings of God in many religions seems to tell us we have a conscience choice to do good or evil. Yes i have a sister who is righteous and doesn't do evil and helps people and has no belief in god. However, she was raised a catholic up until 5th grade when she switched to public school due to some abuse issues.
If you believe there is no God and all there is is life and death then why do you then use your conscience to do good or maybe you don't?
All social animals have a conscience. It's what allows them to function as a group. If gorillas and wolves and meerkats and chimpanzees et cetera are able to get along in a social circle, what's to say we are any different? I find this answer far more compelling. If you understand this model you can predict from it a mutation that would cause a lack of empathy and behavior not beneficial to group survival. As it turns out, there are people like this. They are commonly referred to as psychopaths. If morality comes from the above, surely psychopathy could be cured by a simple trip to church.
Psychosis (not to be confused with psychopathy) is when one believes to be real that which is fantasy. Sometimes it manifests as a fear that someone is out to get you or even so far as having your beliefs appear real to you to the point where you can't trust what is and isn't reality. When one person is said to have this it is called Schizophrenia. Mass psychosis is called Religion.
QuoteFor myself i can't understand how people can think all there is is life and death. If they do why don't they go for all they can get? I think its because people have a conscience. If there is just life and death then why have a conscience? Why not logically go after everything you can and take what you want etc etc. This is why there has to be a God and why i have to have faith in God in that one day i will understand my illogical reason to do good verses evil or going after everything for myself. The teachings of God in many religions seems to tell us we have a conscience choice to do good or evil. Yes i have a sister who is righteous and doesn't do evil and helps people and has no belief in god. However, she was raised a catholic up until 5th grade when she switched to public school due to some abuse issues.
If you believe there is no God and all there is is life and death then why do you then use your conscience to do good or maybe you don't?
I'm glad we all have free will but for me I don't need a higher power to police how I behave. Others may feel different and I don't feel like they are lesser humans because they need the love or belief in G-d to help them live and prosper to the best of their ability. I'm all for AA, prison miniseries, etc... as long as it helps one live a straight and sober life. I don't steal because it is not mine to take. I don't cheat because it is not fair. I don't murder because it is wrong. I don't need a story, law enforcement, the government or G-d to tell me that because my conscience does that just fine.
I find it interesting that you would assume that people with no belief in G-d would just "go after everything you can and take what you want etc etc." or that G-d and the fear of G-d's punishment is the one that stops you from taking what you want.
I don't.
I really think the basic nature of humans is compassion, if it wasn't we would not have survived as a species. There would be no empathy, no altruism, no community spirit, no maternal instincts. They are all part of our nature.
We don't need a god to tell us to love our children, don't need a god to know that helping others feels good, don't need god to know how to love, to care, to nurture.
If all there is to life is life, would I be happier being an evil bastard, taking what I want, raping, killing etc... or would I be happier being compassionate and nurturing and receiving the same back? Kind of easy really.
Quote from: tekla on April 05, 2011, 08:30:03 PM
Thanks, but no thanks. Given the choice - as we all have - between reason and faith, I'll take reason.
Kia Ora Tekla,
::) So you have "faith" in reason ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Yakshini on April 05, 2011, 12:13:54 PM
Does anyone else feel a similar sadness or envy regarding a lack of faith?
No, not at all. But I do feel a sadness for those who are so wrapped up in their faith they can't live life.
Here is an interesting twist on the question - do those with faith ever envy those without it?
I have faith in myself and the things I can accomplish, so no, I don't envy those with faith in a god / religion / belief system, because I personally see no need for such things in order to live my life. :)
Quote from: Nicole99 on June 10, 2011, 04:26:33 AM
Here is an interesting twist on the question - do those with faith ever envy those without it?
Personally i would feel so dead without a belief in a higher power. It gives me love and hope where people have always let me down. However, when i have tried the total surrender bit of the ego its very hard when living with others who don't or when they get weak and play head games with me. When living by myself i seem to surrender self better in the sense that i hear more clearly from above but then its not to other people which i know is part of the surrender. I feel sometimes other people, who are surrendering, as those in the www.twelvetribes.org (http://www.twelvetribes.org) do, i get where i want to be like them, but its so hard since little things get on my nerves and makes me a unhappy camper. It amazes me how some can live that way. Oh well time will tell if i ever go back there and try again. However, living on my farm being a simple caregiver to mom has been very easy and i get to do lots of hard work which i love. That helps me sleep well at night. Again though i could never not believe in above. What above is actually, does get confusing.
Quote from: Zenda on June 09, 2011, 11:32:26 PM
Kia Ora Tekla,
::) So you have "faith" in reason ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
I'm not Tekla, but I agree with him, and no, I don't have "faith" in reason. I have relatively high confidence in reason because it works quite well. If there were another system of thought that produced equivalent results, I'd value it equally.
It's posts like this that make me wonder if maybe people of faith
really don't understand what makes atheists tick.
Quote from: kyril on June 20, 2011, 06:03:56 PMI have relatively high confidence in reason because it works quite well.
Agreed. I use reason because it produces results, not because I like reason.
Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on June 06, 2011, 07:13:21 AM
For myself i can't understand how people can think all there is is life and death. If they do why don't they go for all they can get? I think its because people have a conscience. If there is just life and death then why have a conscience? Why not logically go after everything you can and take what you want etc etc. This is why there has to be a God and why i have to have faith in God in that one day i will understand my illogical reason to do good verses evil or going after everything for myself. The teachings of God in many religions seems to tell us we have a conscience choice to do good or evil. Yes i have a sister who is righteous and doesn't do evil and helps people and has no belief in god. However, she was raised a catholic up until 5th grade when she switched to public school due to some abuse issues.
If you believe there is no God and all there is is life and death then why do you then use your conscience to do good or maybe you don't?
I don't need a conscience to do good. In fact, I think the thing we call "conscience" - our instinctive feelings about the moral acceptability of actions - is actually not a particularly good moral guide. It overvalues the people closest to us, undervalues strangers and people different from us, and is often skewed by our upbringing in a way that's not healthy for us and not positive for humanity as a whole.
I try to act based on the following principles:
- I am not special. I am just one human out of billions.
- All humans are equally valuable and deserve equal respect and dignity and opportunity - all those alive now, all those who have lived in the past, and all those who will be born in the future. (But we can't do anything about those who have already lived and died.)
- This world is all we have. There is no afterlife to compensate for suffering in this world.
The third is important - in fact, it's
key to my morality, just as much as the first two.
According to Freud, faith is a form of neurosis.
I tend to agree. And since neurological disorders are genetically linked, it makes sense that this neurosis could be hereditary with environmental factors filling in the details. Maybe we all are predisposed to attribute things we see to matters spiritual in nature. Belief in a beneficial spirit world could have had psychological benefits once upon a time. The first person to believe this might have had better health due to an optimistic outlook. That would have been passed down and through survival of the fittest, we all acquired the trait. It is with this understanding that I'm not necessarily envious of those with faith, but I can appreciate the benefit it has for them.
Maybe we all are predisposed to attribute things we see to matters spiritual in nature.
I know that we are inclined to see patterns, even when none exist.
It's called matrixing, especially in the case of facial recognition.
Quote from: tekla on June 24, 2011, 12:13:13 PM
I know that we are inclined to see patterns, even when none exist.
Yeah. A species which doesn't make associations and correlations is a species which is going to be extinct very quickly...
Apologies that I post here despite that I'm not atheist: My beliefs are founded on personal contemplation and comprehension, and in them I have a non-atheist mindset. XD I want to try to give a thought nonetheless.
But...I think it's alright for things like these to be dug stubbornly into yourself. You feel envy of people that are able to be devoted and expect things to happen after they die, right? ---That is a horrible curse to be 'blessed' with. These are people who devote so much of their life thinking 'It's going to reward me...it's going to reward me'...And so hard to watch, exactly like a child looking forward to a present on a birthday when the parents are too poor to afford the present. ._.;
Your understanding is the gateway of appreciation and the proper devotion to that which is real: You can take everything for what they are, and appreciate and react to the values appropriately.
That's how I think your mindset should handle the moments of weakness. I hope you don't use it offensively, it's appropriate to use this to give yourself a second wind only. ^^;
Kia Ora,
::) For many it would seem ... "Faith is what takes over when ones confidence runs out ! "
Metta Zenda :)
Reading this has caused me to wonder if the world was "a better place", would there be as many people who choose faith?
A lot of people I have seen turn deeply to faith have endured what can be called "their limit" and when I looked into what drove them to their limit is was often things related to social expectations. They couldn't handle the pressure any longer so they gave their life over to God.
So this got me to wondering if it wasn't socially acceptable to pressure people to do what the masses want them to do and to punish them if they don't (I'm not talking criminal here), would those who chose faith ever be pushed to that point?
I feel pretty sure there would be less, but I also feel pretty sure it would by no means disappear entirely. Faith isn't just about hiding behind something when things get tough, but its basic objective is also to explain everything. Everyone always gets into wondering the meaning of life, how things really came about, etc., etc., so the people who are more curious may go into faith anyway. On the other hand, people wouldn't feel pressured into escapism by seeking religious things that'll tell them that everything's under control, things will get better, etc...
I think that much makes sense... ^^
Quote from: Mr Hockey on February 22, 2014, 06:49:33 PM
No. To be frank, I feel sorry for them that they believe in some psychopathic God that nobody knows for certain actually exists. A God that's supposedly almighty but let's innocent people die every day. A God that creates things he's supposedly hates. Why would he create homosexual and transgender people if he hates them? Why doesn't he just kill Satan and destroy Hell?
Uh not to intrude but that is the same excuse I hear from every Atheist, God lets things happen for a reason you don't have to agree with it but respect peoples beliefs but from my standpoint, I was suppose to be dead at age 9 and as a baby up until infant stage I had a lazy eye that never had surgery only prayers and you can't even notice it know. Everything is not for you to understand just know that thats why you have to learn sometimes other times you just go with the flow.
Quote from: Mr Hockey on February 22, 2014, 07:05:20 PM
I'm sorry, if I'm gonna base my life on something, I want some proof it exists so if it turns it it doesn't, I don't look like an idiot.
So God let's the less unfortunate starve to death and live without homes? He lets people die of cancer and people lose their families and homes because of natural disasters? According to Christians, he's all powerful and can heal people. Whenever somebody survives something traumatic, they say "thank God" but God didn't save all the other people who've suffered through the same. I find the argument "everything happens for a reason" very contradictory and accepting of the flaws of the idea of God.
Same excuse once again, Who said God is allowing it, You do realize we hav to go through things to make us stronger and better people right? Because if everything was perfect we would all be selfish asses because we never knew what it was like to go through omething yes everything does happen for a reason, But I'm not gonna force my beliefs down your throat, Do what you do and I like how you bi passed everything I said, I am proof that God exist Cancer suvivors are proof that God exist. And ou forget sickness is of the Devil not of God yes he can heal.
Quote from: Brandon on February 22, 2014, 07:11:19 PM
Same excuse once again, Who said God is allowing it, You do realize we hav to go through things to make us stronger and better people right? Because if everything was perfect we would all be selfish asses because we never knew what it was like to go through omething yes everything does happen for a reason, But I'm not gonna force my beliefs down your throat, Do what you do and I like how you bi passed everything I said, I am proof that God exist Cancer suvivors are proof that God exist. And ou forget sickness is of the Devil not of God yes he can heal.
God is allowing it. You say he has the power to heal but he picks and chooses who he heals. I try to avoid arguing with religious people because they're so intent on proving themselves even if an Atheist is putting up a good argument and shooting their points down. I've noticed Christians love to make up things and twist things in the Bible for an argument.
Oh, Atheists don't believe in Satan either. It's a bunch of bull like God. Yeah fine, believe in whatever you want. I don't care as long as you don't shove them down my throat and try to brainwash people with stupid ideals (Ex. Westboro Baptist Church). There are many flaws in the idea of God and numerous contradictions, and just stupid ignorant stuff in the Bible. The Bible supports slavery, sexism and genocide; all things I do NOT agree with.
Anyways, I'm out.
Quote from: Mr Hockey on February 22, 2014, 07:21:38 PM
God is allowing it. You say he has the power to heal but he picks and chooses who he heals. I try to avoid arguing with religious people because they're so intent on proving themselves even if an Atheist is putting up a good argument and shooting their points down. I've noticed Christians love to make up things and twist things in the Bible for an argument.
Oh, Atheists don't believe in Satan either. It's a bunch of bull like God. Yeah fine, believe in whatever you want. I don't care as long as you don't shove them down my throat and try to brainwash people with stupid ideals (Ex. Westboro Baptist Church). There are many flaws in the idea of God and numerous contradictions, and just stupid ignorant stuff in the Bible. The Bible supports slavery, sexism and genocide; all things I do NOT agree with.
Anyways, I'm out.
You haven't put up a good arguement though its the same thing every Atheist says I still believe in God and you will never change that. And you probaly have never even read a bible your just assuming stuff know. There is no proof that God doesn't exist. As Ive already stated he does allow things to happen for a reason but if you don't wanna believe it fine atleast be respectful about it.
Quote from: Mr Hockey on February 22, 2014, 07:36:08 PM
You are on an Atheist board. I've been as respectful as I can. There is no proof God exists either, bud.
I have read the Bible. I was a Christian who read the Bible every night and liked going to church but I opened my eyes. I'm not trying to make you not believe in God anymore, but I am trying to open your eyes to what you're basing your life on.
If you think I'm assuming stuff, you must have not read all of the Bible yourself.
Sexism: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (1 Timothy 2:12)
Slavery: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel." (1 Peter 2:18)
Genocide: "This is what the Lord Almighty says... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" (1 Samuel 15:3)
Now, I'm really done here. It's pointless arguing.
Nah bud you really haven't ben respectful telling someone that God doesn't exist is dirspectful or saying that were crazy for believing in him, Who are you to tell someone that? You really need to open your eyes I know my God exist and yes I have read the bible and I'm pretty sure I can quote more scriptures than you. And yes I realize I'm on an Atheist board no different from you coming to the Christianity board, Bro your being very disrespectful its ok to say I don't believe in him but to say someone is crazy for it is rude. And no the difference between an arguement and a discussion .
Not at all.
Okay, everyone needs to be respectful of others' faiths and lack thereof. Atheists need to be able to discuss freely on their board same as Christians as long as they are not bashing:
Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.
I would recommend ignoring the Atheist board if you find you just end up arguing and vice versa. These are support boards and not really meant for debate between groups (debating points within a religion is ok depending).
You can ignore a board by going into your profile and clicking "Ignore Boards Options" on the left.
I think we and particularly Mr Hockey have been more than tolerant of your rhetoric.
He has responded politely and cited examples to support his point of view whilst you have basically said "I'm right because I know I'm right". This is called circular logic, you may wish to look it up.
You have responded by attacking the person and not the argument "Who are you to tell someone that?" let me respond by asking who are you to tell anyone that god is real?
You are accusing someone of being discourteous and have put words into their mouth. "Bro your being very disrespectful its ok to say I don't believe in him but to say someone is crazy for it is rude"
He didn't call you crazy for believing in god, he expressed his opinion that a god who allows the horror which occurs every day to continue has the psychological profile of someone who lacks empathy and is interpersonally exploitative. You may also wish to look up Psychopathic.
"I realize I'm on an Atheist board no different from you coming to the Christianity board" Mr Hockey is not on a Christianity board blindly swearing that there is no god and telling others that "You need to open your eyes!" That right there is extremely disrespectful!
Telling you that god does not exist is no less respectful than you telling someone else that god does exist, I hope you can understand that.
If I went on to a Christianity board and started yelling that I know for a fact that there is no god then I would be the one being disrespectful. This is what you are doing here.
I suggest that you reacquaint yourself with the definition of an argument "a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong."
Mr Hockey was making an argument in an attempt to explain his point of view which is the purpose of any debate.
However - as you failed to provide a reason or reasons for your point of view - all that you were offering was a contradiction like a child arguing "IS!" "ISN'T!" "IS!" "ISN'T!"
Saying that "I'm pretty sure I can quote more scriptures than you" further serves to make you sound like a petulant child arguing in a playground e.g. "No I'm the fastest runner!"
This impression is further conveyed when you then fail to provide any scripture to support your argument despite your claimed reserves of knowledge on the subject.
You say that Mr Hockey must open his eyes to your point of view whilst your own dialogue has remained blinkered and repetitive.
It is my fond hope that you take some of what I have said on board and understand how you are presenting yourself on this board.
If you feel that I have been unfair in my assessment then please explain your position with examples (preferably quotations from what I have actually said) and possibly in a private message as I'm not certain that those who came to this topic wish to witness an argument about etiquette. Please do not simply continue to repeat yourself.
If anyone else feels that I have overstepped my bounds as a member of this forum then I would honestly like to know, I am relatively new to this environment and may not be aware if I am making a faux pas. I have faith that I have expressed my displeasure without being crass or needlessly offensive but no faith should be blind and all beliefs deserve to be challenged.
Quote from: Falconer on February 22, 2014, 09:45:34 PM
I think we and particularly Mr Hockey have been more than tolerant of your rhetoric.
He has responded politely and cited examples to support his point of view whilst you have basically said "I'm right because I know I'm right". This is called circular logic, you may wish to look it up.
You have responded by attacking the person and not the argument "Who are you to tell someone that?" let me respond by asking who are you to tell anyone that god is real?
You are accusing someone of being discourteous and have put words into their mouth. "Bro your being very disrespectful its ok to say I don't believe in him but to say someone is crazy for it is rude"
He didn't call you crazy for believing in god, he expressed his opinion that a god who allows the horror which occurs every day to continue has the psychological profile of someone who lacks empathy and is interpersonally exploitative. You may also wish to look up Psychopathic.
"I realize I'm on an Atheist board no different from you coming to the Christianity board" Mr Hockey is not on a Christianity board blindly swearing that there is no god and telling others that "You need to open your eyes!" That right there is extremely disrespectful!
Telling you that god does not exist is no less respectful than you telling someone else that god does exist, I hope you can understand that.
If I went on to a Christianity board and started yelling that I know for a fact that there is no god then I would be the one being disrespectful. This is what you are doing here.
I suggest that you reacquaint yourself with the definition of an argument "a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong."
Mr Hockey was making an argument in an attempt to explain his point of view which is the purpose of any debate.
However - as you failed to provide a reason or reasons for your point of view - all that you were offering was a contradiction like a child arguing "IS!" "ISN'T!" "IS!" "ISN'T!"
Saying that "I'm pretty sure I can quote more scriptures than you" further serves to make you sound like a petulant child arguing in a playground e.g. "No I'm the fastest runner!"
This impression is further conveyed when you then fail to provide any scripture to support your argument despite your claimed reserves of knowledge on the subject.
You say that Mr Hockey must open his eyes to your point of view whilst your own dialogue has remained blinkered and repetitive.
It is my fond hope that you take some of what I have said on board and understand how you are presenting yourself on this board.
If you feel that I have been unfair in my assessment then please explain your position with examples (preferably quotations from what I have actually said). Please do not simply continue to repeat yourself.
If anyone else feels that I have overstepped my bounds as a member of this forum then I would honestly like to know, I am relatively new to this environment and may not be aware if I am making a faux pas. I have faith that I have expressed my displeasure without being crass or needlessly offensive but no faith should be blind and all beliefs deserve to be challenged.
I'm not attacking anyone or agueing, he can believe whatever the hell he wants to believe. And me saying God is real is not disrespectful at all, but I don't appreciate being called crazy for my belief when I almost died at the age of 9 and should be dead. Clearly he bashed my religion but its ok.
I'm not judging him fo his bliefs but don't disrespect me or my religion. But your an Atheist to so of course you would stick up for another one.
I deleted my posts because I don't want to be reminded of this argument as I have other things going on.
Look, you're on a board meant for Atheism and you're complaining about being disrespected. Obviously, we're not going to agree with you. I think you're being hypocritical. It's ok to say God exists but it's not ok to say he doesn't is what I'm getting from you. I didn't disrespect you on a personal level. I debated with you about your faith; I didn't directly call you names or insult you.
Brandon
Please re-read your previous posts and see how you have just contradicted yourself.
Please re-read the part of my previous post where I asked you to explain your point with examples and not simply to repeat yourself.
Please re-read this entire dialogue and consider the meaning of what has actually been said rather than continuing to make false assumptions and accusations.
I was strangled with my own umbilical cord. That I survived does not mean that god saved me any-more than it means that they tried to kill me.
Thankyou for exposing your arrogant and incorrect assumptions about my personal spiritual views without enquiry.
I am an Agnostic.
I do not believe the contradictory accounts of the nature of a divine being expressed by man.
I do however acknowledge that I do not know everything as well as the possibility that there may be one or multiple deities.
It depends , i am clearly not envious of those who are controlled by their beliefs , the ones that suffer in the name of religion , as i 've been there and i know it is a sad life . But i wish i could believe in something , believe that everything has a purpose , that Something or Someone do exist and each of us would be special . I don't like it now , when i feel that i am just another form of life , that i am not so special as individual , that i don't have a 'spirit' but just a mind . I tend to feel lonely and unworthy.
Another mod has suggested that I lock this topic. If everyone will chill out and try to be a bit more civil--even when you feel that you are being antagonized--we can leave the topic open.
For the record, please refrain from using rude adjectives to refer to other people. Please refrain from telling people (even if indirectly) not to post in any boards they like. Please post with care about other beliefs even if you are in the atheism board.
I am leaving this topic unlocked for the moment.
In the sense that I've always been curious about mescaline, I suppose the answer is a tentative yes. :-\
My grandmother always said there are two things never to discuss.
Religion and Politics
I heed her words.
Perhaps a few more of us should take this advise as it always seems to get heated.
By the way my grandmother was a very wise woman and I do miss her.
J
I don't think I'm cynical, but I've tried to be religious and I think I'm just not capable of it. I am envious of the ready-made wholesome communities that houses of worship provide, and of the human connection between even strangers of the same faith. I do occasionally try to act like a christian just so I can fit in, but it never consists of more than keeping my mouth shut and letting people assume.
So yes. I am envious of the social benefits of adhering to a popular religion, and whether a person believes in the profound storylines or not, I would never begrudge anyone the experience of living that way.
No, because I have been shown too much. Faith, like everything else, has been misused and abused. I cannot change that. Mankind does very bad things under guise of noble causes.
Faith? The definition is believing without seeing. So, I suppose I have some, for I believe there is purpose in what I have seen.
I have been shown the future in dreams.
My Creator has pulled me out of a whirlpool, caught my foot with a crevice as I fell over a 400 ft cliff, sent me back to my body when an intestinal blockage slew me, prevented the car from backing over me when I was 3, awoken me from a coma in the hospital with zero brain damage (doctors stunned) and generally been there for me when all others rejected and abused me.
How could I ever turn my back on my greatest friend I have ever known?
Now, I am tasked with walking in shoes I never imagined.
In the meantime, my life and my body is part male/part female, complete with all the rejection and cruelty the world dishes out on us.
How can something that brings such joy be greeted with unbridled scorn?
Gender and Faith, they appear to me as two sides of the same coin.
I love you all, no matter what your gender and beliefs are or are not.
Here's what I originally wanted to post before I got sidetracked :(
I sometimes feel envious of people with real conviction. I mean people who believe in an ideal and stand up for that ideal, like human rights lawyers trying to protect people from prejudice and discrimination. I admire their passion.
I feel a sense of respect towards people with beliefs that they question and re-examine in the light of new information. I think that it takes a lot of strength to constantly question everything that you think you know rather than burying your head in the sand.
I am not envious of people who use faith as a shield against life's troubles, those who stop questioning things and thinking for themselves believing that a higher power will solve their problems for them.
People who cower behind their "certainty" and lash out at anyone who threatens that certainty. Those people who "know" that they are right, too terrified to even countenance the thought that they may have based their life around a falsehood. Them I pity.
To answer the title question, nope.
I could ask a counter question, "why would I be?"
Rarely, but it happens.
No. I prefer to deal with reality, not delusion.
Nope.
No.
Faith is simply pretending to believe something you know isn't true.
What is the value in that?
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In a sense yes, but it doesn't really matter.
I might be lapsed, but it doesn't mean there aren't things I also have faith in; rather than having faith in god I've always had faith in things like love and how it can fix people. Not always, but in general it's better to love than hate, and so on. There's plenty of things to have faith in that actually have tangible benefits.
Never. For me that's like being envious of someone suffering from brain damage because they get more pudding in the hospital.
No. Faith amounts to nothing more than wishful thinking based on fairy tales. I prefer to deal with reality.
My faith comes from personal experience, strength, and fortitude. It is my experience that good easy times are mixed with challenges that come and go, and that a strong will to succeed combined with the experience to overcome obstacles allows me to have a a realistic faith during tough times that things will get better; and my fortitude is unyielding as I never give up hope within myself.
Envy is a deadly sin as described in the 10 commandments. So if you do envy you are not Christian with closely held religious beliefs. Just like when you don't love your neighbor. Bear false witness.
Yeah a bit because it's a way to cope with things for some people. It doesn't really help in my case. I did have a miracle happen recently but I don't know if that has to do with my faith? I feel like the universe spoke to me through this miracle and told me "everything will be okay". I know that sounds crazy, maybe it is
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I can understand a little bit, Christians (and other believers of religions with similar beliefs) get to believe that there is an afterlife with the loved ones that have passed away, and also that there is a deity that might be able to help them when life suddenly turns south.
BUT! I do not see any reason to believe any of that is true, and that's a problem in of itself. I've lost a family member who did not take care of himself. When he started to not feel well, he decided to "leave it to God". By the time he went on chemo, it was too late to help him.
I also have a teacher who really turned my life around, got me back into college and everything. She is a believer in a branch of Calvinism. While she is an amazing, selfless individual, from the way she talks, she believes she has no agency in her actions. When I'd thank her, she'd say "No, it's all God!". I went to her one of her church services one day, and it just made me feel so sad. The whole sermon was all "We are nothing, without God". The preacher completely talked down self-esteem movements, because... You are not supposed to have self-esteem, you are only supposed to trust in God.
Religious beliefs - unless very light - can be very toxic, even when they don't seem so. I don't envy that.
I would probably be a happier person if I followed a religion, but I just don't know if I can believe in any of it. Knowing that I will forget everything that I experienced and accomplished once I die makes life seem pointless and not worth living. What I do or don't do does not matter in the end because nothing matters and it SUCKS. I became an atheist when I was 11 and I think that was a mistake because I have been miserable ever since.
^^^^
Why would believing delusion make you happier?
Quote from: TicTac on April 15, 2018, 01:54:17 PM
I would probably be a happier person if I followed a religion, but I just don't know if I can believe in any of it. Knowing that I will forget everything that I experienced and accomplished once I die makes life seem pointless and not worth living. What I do or don't do does not matter in the end because nothing matters and it SUCKS. I became an atheist when I was 11 and I think that was a mistake because I have been miserable ever since.
I go to church as a social function, and a way to connect locally with my peers.. It has nothing to do with undying devotion and adoration to some obscure allegedly benevolent deity. After all, if 'god' (goddess?) was truly loving would they have designed so many mistakes in humanity, allow suffering, childhood cancer, terrible cruely, etc.??
Nope I'm more ancient aliens theorist.. we were seeded, socially manipulated, then released to our own wiles. Doesn't mean I won't go to church & sing with the rest however. What it does mean however, is I realized long ago praying to god wouldn't solve my problems. Ironically the very thing I prayed & begged for for decades ... I had all along. SO you never know! There is always hope :) :) :) On that note I needed to be more specific with my wish :P As any good AD&D player will tell you, careful what you wish for.
Quote from: Doreen on April 15, 2018, 02:22:39 PM
I go to church as a social function, and a way to connect locally with my peers.. It has nothing to do with undying devotion and adoration to some obscure allegedly benevolent deity. After all, if 'god' (goddess?) was truly loving would they have designed so many mistakes in humanity, allow suffering, childhood cancer, terrible cruely, etc.??
Nope I'm more ancient aliens theorist.. we were seeded, socially manipulated, then released to our own wiles. Doesn't mean I won't go to church & sing with the rest however. What it does mean however, is I realized long ago praying to god wouldn't solve my problems. Ironically the very thing I prayed & begged for for decades ... I had all along. SO you never know! There is always hope :) :) :) On that note I needed to be more specific with my wish :P As any good AD&D player will tell you, careful what you wish for.
My dad took me to a church once...it was not for me lol. I have grown a slight interest in the whole Wicca thing, but like you I do not believe in gods and goddesses so I cannot really be apart of that, and besides I think my family needs to have a history with the religion to even be apart of the whole Wicca thing. But yeah, the world is to ->-bleeped-<-ty for gods to exist.
An ancient aliens theorist? The idea is an interesting one but I personally do not believe in it. However, it definitively would make Humanity more interesting as a species.
The wishes I made with spells a few years ago did come true...to an extent, but in reality I was the one who made those things happen and not the wishes. Who knows though...
Quote from: AnneK on April 15, 2018, 02:16:44 PM
^^^^
Why would believing delusion make you happier?
Sometimes people need to believe in delusions in order to be happy. There are probably people out in the world who know that their religion is BS, but they believe it anyways because the truth is a bit depressing. The idea that you are dead and gone forever once you hit the bucket is a depressing thought, and plus you will never get to see family members again after they die.
I became an atheist when I was 11 and that is what I will die as, but that does not mean I have to like being one. Of course religion is BS but it is nice to think of the maybe's and what ifs. Also, I do not like the idea of worshiping a god so me and religion could never work anyways I suppose.