So once again I had a bad argument with my parents over me being transgendered. They are extremely religious and say this is a horrible sin. They kept relating it to homosexuality, which I told them has absolutely nothing to do with it. I told them there are no verses in the Bible against this, but they kept bringing up the "Men should dress like men and women should dress like women" in the Bible.
I used to be extremely depressed and cried all of the time. I wanted to die almost every day of my life until I came to terms with my identity. I have been extremely happy since I've starting transitioning, and would never dream of turning back. I asked my parents if my happiness meant anything to them and they literally told me that they would rather me commit suicide than live happily this way. So to them, I'm better off dead.
(I cannot leave the house because I have nowhere to go and no job. My health is not good at all and I can't hold down a job...but I would love to get out of this house so much.)
I don't know what to do. I have a migraine over this and I'm stressed to the highest point. I can't believe they would say that to me. My own parents...
More people twisting the words of the bible ::) but it's pathetic that they can say that to you and call themselves your parent. I'm sorry man :icon_hug:
First of all let me say I am sorry that your parents would say that to you. try looking into your local LGBTQ services and see if there is anything they can do to assist you with housing of some kind. Some places have services like that others don't.
OOOooo child! Been there. Not a fun place to be. If it's any consolation, my parents started off very much on that note, and are now pretty much completely supportive. There is hope! Even though I know it doesn't seem like it now... :( :icon_hug:
You may be able to get low income/section 8 housing. If you're unable to work, you may be able to get disability. Either of those (or both) will help you get out.
I hope things work out for you. It's rough when you're family's like that.
I was going to suggest the same thing jmaxley said. If things are that bad, you need to get the hell out.
Forgive me for saying so, but that's horrible of your parents to say! I know they're your parents and all, but not even the most religious parents would honestly want their child dead! Maybe if you were a serial killer or something really awful but no parent should wish for their child to be dead! :( I'm sorry your parents are so unaccepting.
I've been through similar stuff, I come from a religious family too. Well not that religious, but religious enough that I grew up without TV, radio, books or anything. And it's been a long fight, but I think my mom's pretty defeated by now in knowing that I'm going to be my own person no matter how much she hates it. Although, she does sometimes still tell me that she still has hope that one day I'll stop wearing black clothes, stop listening to all music all together, and find God. ::) ::) ::) ::) ... Uh, yeah.
But then I haven't dropped the T-bomb on them yet. I was thinking a simple Mother's Day card "from Son" this year. But that would just be evil and probably cause WW3. So I'm undecided. >:-)
Anyway I hope things will get better for you, man.
Quote from: Shimei Valentine on April 15, 2011, 10:33:48 PMthey kept bringing up the "Men should dress like men and women should dress like women" in the Bible.
... Does your mom wear pants?
... Do your parents wear "mixed fibers"?
There's also;
1 Timothy 2:9
"Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments."
Just noting..
Do they eat seafood or pork products? Both, according to the bible are abominations. Essentially your parents are guilty of cherry picking if they don't follow strictly to kosher law. If they're going off the bible, you might use this to your advantage as the bible completely contradicts itself all the time.
Then there's John 13:34-35
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Clearly by telling you you're better off dead they're in direct violation of the bible.
But if you really want to get techincal about the law as it pertains to men and women, look no further than Galatians 3:17-29.
It basically it says that no one is saved through adherance to the law alone but through faith in Jesus Christ. We are all in one union and there is no difference between man and woman.
As long as you quote the correct text, you can justify anything according to the bible.
I'm in total agreement with Maddie here. Just want to add...many people think that the Bible contradicts itself. And it is because they take Bible verses out of context. They don't read the complete passages. They don't get an understanding of....who were these passages written to? And many forget....we are not under the law anymore....we live under Grace!
As for myself, I'm an athiest. I just happen to like looking up loopholes to rules in the Player's Handbook, I mean Bible. So if you need more help digging up rules in the book to help argue your case, as clearly you won't be able to sway them through an intellectual argument, I'll be more than willing to help.
Unfortunately there is no arguing with religious nutjobs. Sorry to hear that things are tough. If I were you I'd start planning an exit strategy. Sad that their love for their child is conditional on a bunch of fairytales written on some mouldy papers two millennia ago.
And you are not better off dead. You owe it to yourself to live and not give in.
Not to be arguementative....just two sides to everything. I am a born again christian. That is why my mom tried to use the Bible against me. And that is why I knew the Bible enough to show her the error in her thinking. Before I transitioned, I was very suicidal, self-harming and had given up on God. By not giving in to her narrow thinking....and that of my church (at the time), I have been tranisitioning successfully and my faith in God is to the point where...I say as David said....God is the strength of my life. OK OK...I'll stop preaching. Just want to make the point that...a person can maintain their faith, and be who they are.
a parent telling their own child to kill himself is a murderer in my eyes. they may think they're good christians but they sure are the worst parents. unconditional love are the condensed basis of both parenthood and christianity. and by the way, suicide?? --so they're asking you to commit a huge "sin" in order not to commit another "sin"? it sounds like they're asking you to commit a sin that's easier to explain to the neighbors than transition....
(i just never come around to understand how people came to believe that the bible does not tell you to live and let live (happily) but to live and torture everyone else with one's convictions derived from personal interpretations of verses. also, i don't believe there's a WAY to read the Bible correctly, seeing as we have long lost all time reference and no one's a native speaker of Old Aramaic and the English translations rely on older translations into Latin...)
Could you quote exactly what your parents said to you?
Quote from: emil on April 16, 2011, 12:25:01 PM
a parent telling their own child to kill himself is a murderer in my eyes. they may think they're good christians but they sure are the worst parents. unconditional love are the condensed basis of both parenthood and christianity. and by the way, suicide?? --so they're asking you to commit a huge "sin" in order not to commit another "sin"? it sounds like they're asking you to commit a sin that's easier to explain to the neighbors than transition....
(i just never come around to understand how people came to believe that the bible does not tell you to live and let live (happily) but to live and torture everyone else with one's convictions derived from personal interpretations of verses. also, i don't believe there's a WAY to read the Bible correctly, seeing as we have long lost all time reference and no one's a native speaker of Old Aramaic and the English translations rely on older translations into Latin...)
This. Exactly.
And to add to that 2nd part, everyone that gets wrapped up in the bible seems to totally forget the times it was written in (and the fact that it was written and re-written by whomever was in power at the time).
Hey, I'm really sorry they said that to you. That's just so cruel. If I were you, I would do everything I could to somehow get a place of my own, because emotional abuse like that can be very damaging. I don't know your exact circumstances, but are you sure there aren't any jobs you could do? I'm pretty sure the law requires that employers make any accommodations you need to be able to do your job. Could you apply for some sort of financial assistance from the government? The only other solution I can think of for getting out of your parents' house is if you have a friend, or an accepting relative, who would be okay with you living with them.
I am so sorry your parents said that to you. That is so wrong to say that to your child. Totally not christian like at all.
I've talked to a catholic priest and I told him about that bible verse about women wearing men's clothes and men wearing woman's clothes I can't really remember what he said, but I don't think he said it was a sin. But I didn't ask him if it was a sin or not, but I didn't get the impression from him that it was a sin and he said I wouldn't go to hell for this b/c I was really worried I would go to hell b/c of what I'm doing. He was saying something like this is the reality, things like this happen. He said a lot more stuff but I just can't remember what he said.
I'm sorry your parents are being such...a-holes. Dominick is right, they are not being very Christian.
There are some books that might give you some ammunition if you have to fight fire with fire. The ones I know of are geared toward homosexuality, but I think they might also cover transsexuality in a special section--or maybe some of the same passages apply.
There's Helminiak's What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality. I started reading it but never finished.
Also, Hate Thy Neighbor, by Linda Patterson.
You can find one of these and use it to find other books on Amazon. Then see if the books are available at a local library or even a public university library. Even if you can't check out the books, you can read them in the library and take notes.
But in my secondhand experience, most people like your parents can't really be argued with, even when you use Scripture. You might need to just wait and see what happens. And if you can, maybe find a trans-friendly church in your area and talk to the minister/pastor and have some conversations with that person.
FWIW, I have a friend whose heavily Roman Catholic parents finally came around and are very supportive now. It can happen.
Quote from: Dominick_81 on April 16, 2011, 03:29:36 PM
I am so sorry your parents said that to you. That is so wrong to say that to your child. Totally not christian like at all.
I've talked to a catholic priest and I told him about that bible verse about women wearing men's clothes and men wearing woman's clothes I can't really remember what he said, but I don't think he said it was a sin. But I didn't ask him if it was a sin or not, but I didn't get the impression from him that it was a sin and he said I wouldn't go to hell for this b/c I was really worried I would go to hell b/c of what I'm doing. He was saying something like this is the reality, things like this happen. He said a lot more stuff but I just can't remember what he said.
Why does it matter what he says?
My family ran that religious bunk at me too. I challenged them to show me where in the Bible it says "Thou shalt not change thy sex." Of course they could not and they had to shut up, for the moment.
What people like that don't get is that God has an infinitely broader mind than they do, and also that in the first place they are simply projecting their narrow-minded and ignorant hang-ups and prejudices onto God in order to justify them. It's what turns so many off to religion completely.
Lots of people USE religion that way, and it really sucks that they do it. God is a LOT nicer than they are.
Hi Vinnie
Well with such parents you don't need enemies anymore.
Home looks a horrible place to be for you, but you can beat them, like Valerie said, be yourself and try to be happy.
Ignore their comments, let them live their live stucked in bible things interpreted in their own way, you live your life and pretend you don't hear those nasty comments.
Once they see it won't hurt you anymore they don't have a reason to go on with it.
But i know, easier said than done, but please try, it's your only defence while depending on your parents.
Be strong Vinnie, don't let themget you down with silly bibletexts.
btw was there not something written in the bible that you have to love someone like you love yourself?
Maybe they have some selfhate, projecting on you.
I wish you a lot of strength
hugs
Annette
wow man, i don't even know what to say, that's the right thing to say...I've had to put up with family not getting it and not trying to call me the right pronouns or name and pretending like the whole conversation with the therapist never happened and still treating me like a girl but at least mine aren't religious. this is the reason why I'm always grateful we've never been religious because i know I'd be getting this same treatment. who the hell says that to their own kid?! maybe annette has a point with the self hate, maybe they think they failed as parents and are projecting that anger or hate at themselves to you because your trans....or are they ignorant and intolerant to anyone in the LGBT community? sorry though.
*hugs*
The problem with religion is that people want to live by a book and nobody knows who have written it.
So, nobody is responsable for what is written, looks quite easy to me, you can dictate people what to do and if it goes wrong you're not responsable.
Another thing is that it isn't written in a clear way, people are fighting for centuries for it, one say, you have to live this way coz it's written while another say, yes but you must interprete it another way.
So, it seems not that important to me, because, if it was that important it was written clearly with no way of other interpretation.
Suppose you're in courd and a judge will give a judgement that you can interprete in many ways.
Serial killers could walk away laughing to freedom and do their crimes again for example.
I don't want to hurt people who have a strong feeling for religion but on the other hand they have no right to hurt others with their believe.
Freedom of believe means for me that you're free to believe what ever you want but you have to give others the freedom to believe otherwise or not believing at all.
Also a lot of strenght for Kalshady
hug
Annette
As a parent I have to say they plain disgust me. You don't have to agree with your children, but you should love them unconditionally. What they do is a seperate issue, and secondary.
What would your parents say if they saw you in a kilt? Is it a garment for men or women?
(I know what the members of my father's Regiment would have said, and done, to the suggestion they were not men!)
Hope things can work out.
Karen.
That's just terrible. They'd rather you commit one of the worst sins in the bible and be forever condemned to purgatory, than be trans, which has never been mentioned in the bible? That's not them being religious, that's them being hateful and homicidal, and using a religious text to justify it. Telling you that you should kill yourself rather than be who you are is basically intent to kill, and there are people out there who couldn't take such comments and live through it.
Stay strong dude, you don't need them, and the first chance you get you should get out asap. I'm not religious, but I believe the quote 'God save us from half the people doing God's work' is appropriate in this instance.
Ah dude I am so sorry they said that to you. It doesn't get any worse than that.
My younger brother killed himself in 1995 & it has been, needless to say, the most horrible thing ever for my family; If my parents knew your parents and could sit and talk about the unending pain that is losing a child, I guarantee your folks would change their tune.
Quote from: niamh on April 16, 2011, 04:08:21 PM
Why does it matter what he says?
It could be comforting especially coming from a priest and what he has to say about this and how Shimei Valentine comes from a christian family. I know it would be comforting to me to get a reassuring from a priest that I'm not committing a sin after my parents tell me I'm better off dead. And I take it your not christian at all with the comment? Who wouldn't want reassurance or take comfort in what a priest has to say? I just wanted to give shimei comfort in what a priest had to say about trans people after what his parents told him.
Hi Vinnie
Find a way so that you can live the life that you want to live, without interference that will undermine who you are. Take care and all the best for the future.
Warm regards
Sarah B
Edit: Somehow this post got posted here instead of elsewhere, have adjusted it accordingly
Quote from: Dominick_81 on April 17, 2011, 11:33:59 PM
It could be comforting especially coming from a priest and what he has to say about this and how Shimei Valentine comes from a christian family. I know it would be comforting to me to get a reassuring from a priest that I'm not committing a sin after my parents tell me I'm better off dead. And I take it your not christian at all with the comment? Who wouldn't want reassurance or take comfort in what a priest has to say? I just wanted to give shimei comfort in what a priest had to say about trans people after what his parents told him.
For every priest that tells you it isn't a sin there will be three only too willing to tell you that you will go to hell.
What happened to Matthew 7:1?
Although your parents don't seem like they would be open to other ideas I think there are some charities that try and help christians understand that glbt people aren't evil, I've only really heard of the Marin Foundation but you can try searching. Although what they said was absolutely awful, it's possible they might be more accepting if they learn more and realise that you being trans isn't something they need to be afraid of.
i feel for you I really do , look to friends for support. or the local lbgt community? I do not see this as a sin...I think of the bible as a guideline of right and wrong, it is not a strict law to live by but values to live by. and being transgendered is not wrong. people say oh but ur changing ur body and u are supposed to leave the world the way u came in it so that is a sin, well wouldn't getting a kidney transplant or appendix removed make me change my body and then im a sinner now? i do not think so. so hopefully ur parents will come around, and i wish u the best of luck, u are definitely not better off dead.
I am so sorry that you had to hear that. My mother said the same thing to me verbatim, it sounds like.
You know after much worry and stress I realized that I'm not better off dead. What I am is better off without her.
You are absolutely not a sin in fact you are beautiful in God's eyes. Keep on going and keeping getting stronger. You will get through this and if your family does not want to join you on this journey, it is absolutely their loss.
Quote from: JohnR on April 18, 2011, 11:20:55 AM
For every priest that tells you it isn't a sin there will be three only too willing to tell you that you will go to hell.
What happened to Matthew 7:1?
That's not comforting to hear but I really trust this priest. He's a good man. Priest's that would tell you that you would go to hell for changing genders... I really don't know what to say to that, only that it would depress me and my life would be over.
What's Matthew 7:1?
Quote from: Dominick_81 on April 18, 2011, 10:07:36 PM
That's not comforting to hear but I really trust this priest. He's a good man. Priest's that would tell you that you would go to hell for changing genders... I really don't know what to say to that, only that it would depress me and my life would be over.
What's Matthew 7:1?
Dominick, priests are human beings, with all the failings and baggage that entails. Stop looking for validation from them, they are
not oracles, even the nice ones.
Matthew 7:1, 'Judge not, lest you be judged.'
Quote from: JohnR on April 19, 2011, 02:20:23 AM
Dominick, priests are human beings, with all the failings and baggage that entails. Stop looking for validation from them, they are not oracles, even the nice ones.
Matthew 7:1, 'Judge not, lest you be judged.'
Agreed!!
Quote from: JohnR on April 19, 2011, 02:20:23 AM
Dominick, priests are human beings, with all the failings and baggage that entails. Stop looking for validation from them, they are not oracles, even the nice ones.
Matthew 7:1, 'Judge not, lest you be judged.'
Nobody is being fed a radio frequency becon from god because of a religious background.
I have to say. This ignorance does a hell of a lot more damage than you could imagine. Brainwashed weak minds. The very negative energy and hate that has us where we are today.
People born transsexual seem to me to have for one, higher intelligance unanomously, incredible bull->-bleeped-<- meters, and for me I could not read well in school but I read the balance that surrounds us. If we had been advising people for the last 3000 years we would be living in a heavan on earth at this point with our technological capabilities. I also think we would have had cell phones ect. 100s of years ago. Borders, governments, and segragation harms us as a species.
I go deep into this in my blog.
Love you, Angie,,,
Quote from: JohnR on April 19, 2011, 02:20:23 AM
Dominick, priests are human beings, with all the failings and baggage that entails. Stop looking for validation from them, they are not oracles, even the nice ones.
Matthew 7:1, 'Judge not, lest you be judged.'
I agree, but I still find comfort in what a priest has to say, he's telling me what he believes. It helps me deal with this b/c he's supportive. He's telling me all this stuff, and I take comfort in that which helps me along in my transition.
Priest's that would tell you that you would go to hell for changing genders
I can't imagine a Catholic priest telling anyone that they are going to hell. They might tell you that you are committing a mortal sin, and placing your soul in mortal peril, least you die with it unshriven, but as any Catholic knows a heartfelt act of contrition absolves you of all sin. And most priests don't do that 'going to hell' thing, because that decision is in god's hands, not theirs. That kind of hubris and pride - speaking for god - that's really a protestant thing.
However, I'm really a very firm believer in this: Remember when you found out that the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus, and the Tooth Fairy were all totally fictitious things your parents made up out of whole cloth as a way to make you behave in a certain way? Yeah? Well you should have rethought the entire Jesus/god deal on that day too.
Tekla, I hope you're wrong, and I pray to God and Santa Claus that I still get a chocolate bunny on Easter!
Quote from: tekla on April 20, 2011, 01:54:41 AM
Priest's that would tell you that you would go to hell for changing genders
I can't imagine a Catholic priest telling anyone that they are going to hell. They might tell you that you are committing a mortal sin, and placing your soul in mortal peril, least you die with it unshriven, but as any Catholic knows a heartfelt act of contrition absolves you of all sin. And most priests don't do that 'going to hell' thing, because that decision is in god's hands, not theirs. That kind of hubris and pride - speaking for god - that's really a protestant thing.
This totally. Only protestants (and this includes the new, born again, Christian variety) are arrogant enough to think they know who's going to hell and who's not. They're basically claiming they are god at that point - course none of them see it that way, they just like to cast out their judgments.
Catholics have contrition cause human beings aren't perfect. We f**k up. But we can ask for forgiveness for our transgressions.
And I'm not even religious (but in case you couldn't tell, was raised Catholic).
Since when has Santa Claus been fiction? I see him in shops all over the place.
Cindy
Quote from: CindyJames on April 21, 2011, 04:34:03 AM
Since when has Santa Claus been fiction? I see him in shops all over the place.
Cindy
In April?
Quote from: niamh on April 21, 2011, 12:31:14 PM
In April?
Santa is a cross-dresser.
He leaves the house dressed as the Easter Bunny.
Cruel people mock him and tell him that he doesn't even exist. This invalidates his personal feelings.
It needs to stop. Santa has the right to express his inner Easter Bunny. In April.
I agree with JohnR, as soon as Christmas is over easter eggs are in the shops so the bunny has to be around, as soon as Easter is finished Christmas decorations are in the shops, so Santa Claus = Easter Bunny QED.
Cindy
actually santa clause is a skilled burgular that arives around holloween when there is less light available to detect him by. he then canvases every neighborhood looking for the best houses to plunder in the disguise of a well meaning parent training future burgulars. come christmas time he breaks into homes devouring all the treats while depositing edible fruitcake and .sugar coated barber shop poles designed to lull u to sleep early where he then leaves cheap imported toys which he gets his kickback from the creditcard companys in april. he atones for these sins by leaving over cooked eggs and piles of sweats to rot the childs teath away .
jessie
Back on topic.
Hello Vinnie.
Man, and I thought my mom was bad. :/
The best thing you can do is try to ignore them.
I mean, that is what I would do.
Continue to do what you feel is right.
If you are over 18, and they try to tell you how to live, tell them you are an adult now, and you don't have to do what they say.
I would suggest calling the Gay-Help Line (They help with Transgenders too)
1-800-246-7743
Call them, they will help youths up to age 25.
http://www.glnh.org/talkline/index.html (http://www.glnh.org/talkline/index.html) View this site for more info.
I am really sorry this is happening hun. D:
I hope you can get help with your situation and get away from there. :/
~ Vince.
PS; You can also message me anytime you want, if you just need someone to talk to, or just for someone to be there. I'm always available.
If you are over 18, and they try to tell you how to live, tell them you are an adult now, and you don't have to do what they say.
That only works if you really ARE an adult. You know, making your own way in the world, paying your own bills, and living on your own. If your still living with your parents, you are still not an adult no matter how old you are.
Quote from: tekla on April 22, 2011, 01:08:52 PM
If you are over 18, and they try to tell you how to live, tell them you are an adult now, and you don't have to do what they say.
That only works if you really ARE an adult. You know, making your own way in the world, paying your own bills, and living on your own. If your still living with your parents, you are still not an adult no matter how old you are.
If you are 18+ years of age, you are an adult. Being an adult is not defined by the place you live. You just live there.
If your living on someone else's dime, you are not being responsible for yourself, and can't back up your own decisions with actions. You are at the mercy of those that are taking care of you. So long as your living with mom and pops (and are not doing it to care for them) then so long are you a kid and not an adult. Adults are people making their way in the world based on their own efforts, and not beholden to others for the most basic levels of support.
Quote from: tekla on April 22, 2011, 07:09:55 PM
If your living on someone else's dime, you are not being responsible for yourself, and can't back up your own decisions with actions. You are at the mercy of those that are taking care of you. So long as your living with mom and pops (and are not doing it to care for them) then so long are you a kid and not an adult. Adults are people making their way in the world based on their own efforts, and not beholden to others for the most basic levels of support.
Than what happens if someone who is like 40, used to live on their own, but has to live with their parents because they lost their job and their house? (Not saying Vinnie is 40, lol.)
Then they just lost a huge part of their most basic freedoms.
Gonna have to agree with Tekla, you can ask for more independence, but if they don't want to give it to you, that's their call if they're feeding you, providing you with a place to sleep, buying your clothes...etc...
My only exception to this is if you're a student and have a part time job and do your part to pay your way through school. If you're living at home to cut expenses there, you're parents should cut you some slack because you're attempting to make something of yourself...this is the current arrangement I have. I work, drive myself to school and work, pay for gas, pay for a decent amount of food, all my clothing and put money in an account for my education that if I were to ever stop going would just go to my parents as rent. And obviously if you are living there and paying rent, you're essentially paying for more freedom. But if you're not contributing to expenses, you have to work with them and try to get them on board with you rather than just throwing the "I'm 18 I can do whatever the heck I want"
However, that's not to say that they are obligated to cut you some slack.
Gonna agree with Tekla and FebruaryFalls on this one. I'm a college student with a part time job who pays for all of my own stuff and pays a large part toward the electric, water, and so on. Only thing I don't pay is rent only because my mother won't let me, not for lack of trying. I go where I want and do what I want. I do check in with her when I get home from work because I get home incredibly late and am walking through not so great areas but she asks me to but it isn't mandatory.
On topic though how is it going? Vince has some great help. Also are you in college, maybe you could use some loans to get on your feet while taking some online classes. Payment plans can be worked out once you finish with your classes. Depends on how much rent is near where your at as to whether it would be enough to cover it. Well, good luck and I hope it's going a little better.
ouch that gotta hurt. when i came out to my parents if they hadnt liked it i would have to live with it cos im still a kid/teenager XD