Quote from: katiahate and intolerance? just because i'm an atheist doesn't mean i'm [hateful or intolerant]. for me it wasn't really a matter of choice. i was overwhelmed by the evidence that my religious beliefs were based in outright [falsehood] at worst and [baseless assertion] at best.
Quote from: jamesBrine on January 29, 2007, 08:57:23 PM
Hello,
I was wondering if it would be possible to start a thread that would discuss the overwhelming evidence against christianity. My intent is not that i could argue the christian perspective but I am most curious to the arguments considering my experience has been the opposite to that assertion. If that is at all possible that would be great. If not thats cool. Thanks. James
i like your idea jamesbrine, so i will start the thread and list the following links as my sources:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/Bible.html
One of the best arguments that I've heard against deity as usually portrayed by Christians elucidates the inherent contradiction: Since unfortunate things sometimes happen, then deity must be either unaware of it (thus not omniscient), powerless to stop it (thus not omnipotent), or content in allowing it (thus not benevolent). So if there is a god then said being cannot simultaneously be all knowing, all powerful, and all good.
Okay.
I think there overwhelming evidence that Christianity is a lie in totality.
First of all, it's completely irrational - there is no basis of fact in which to believe in a God, or that the alleged bible has any truth in it. It makes just as much sense to beleive in the Force from Star Wars as Christianity.
Bri
Allegory (a myth, but with some merit)!
Particularly with the evidence science and other education provides us today, there's no defense for pushing a well-contradicted mythology as fact. Still, certain carefully-chosen stories from The Bible make for suitable fables that we can apply to every-day life (even in our current age). It won't provide all the answers one needs, but those appropriate chunks of reading should be considered literary "classics" if for no other reason than because of their influence.
It'd just be nice if the most prominent Christian philosophers (Church leaders) focused on delivering those lessons rather than dwelling on "miracles." Less time for BS means more time for doing good works and showing love to others. Some denominations already accomplish these ends very substantially, but there are actually groups who are so far down the other end, they actually bring people to be selfish and hateful.
God helps those who help themselves..... I was told this at a very young age and it stuck....
Man was created in gods image.......... something else I was told at a very young age which stuck...
God is good, he lets you suffer to prove your strenght....
There are many others... but Ive figured out how to make them all right... and totaly tick off the establishment in the proces....
God helps those who help themselves.... There fore we are god sence we are doing all the work.
Man was created in gods immage... But we are god, so therefore isnt it the other way around?
God is good, he lets you suffer to prove your strenght... "No we are god, and we let people suffer because we find humor in cruelty, and many find the suffering of others funny... and the rest of those who dont help are too lazy.... and it all falls back to helping those who help themselves dosnt it?
Well, Im god, I help others, I help myself the best I can... and you know what... my suffering has made me strong... and it has made my fath strong... I beleave in the human spirit.... and WE being human therefore become god in spirit.... heheheh. The universe created us to try and understand itsself, so in the end it dosnt really matter does it? Yeah Im twisted :P but those are my thoughts :)
Enjoy and I hope I managed to get this to look and read somewhat cohearntly.
Why does it have to be truth or myth? Why can't it be truth and myth at the same time?
Because that is indeed what it is.
While I'd be classed as a non-believer I can't see where religion is a myth for it exists in many forms with just as many gods the world over.
Steph
Oh wow, this can of worms? Here's a previously opened can: Is God A Myth? (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2008.0.html)
Melissa
Which model (http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/mp14) of Christianity are we referring to here?
The conservative, God-as-'Stern Father' model? (http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/mp14?b_start:int=1)
Or the liberal, 'nurturant God' model? (http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/mp14?b_start:int=4)
Remember, the two models above are two nodes on a continuum, not a binary. In that sense, it's a lot like the gender continuum.
Where do you stand on Christianity, or on your form of religion/worship in general?
Figuring that out may help to come to personal terms with the question posed in the topic title.
Karen
Quote from: Katia on January 30, 2007, 01:37:34 AM
i like your idea jamesbrine, so i will start the thread and list the following links as my sources:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
http://www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/Bible.html
Big can of worms. But I hope you have better sources than these. As someone who reads and studies in both Greek and Hebrew, both of these sites are incredibly unscholarly and downright laughable. I hate seeing stuff like this paraded in the guise of scholarship. And to the unknowing it can appear very convincing.
Kristi
What I believe:
The Bible was primarily developed by religious and state leaders who held the power in the city-states and wanted more power by controlling the beliefs of the citizens (who were mostly illiterate and had to go to church to be told what to do and believe). Many gospels were not included in the Bible because they conflicted with the rest of the texts. Some scholars and theologians believe (have demonstrated?) that these other gospels showed that Jesus was not the "son of God" and that we all have the potential for manifesting Christ-consciousness. Those that hold power DO NOT want "ordinary" citizens to believe that they, too, can be like Christ. I also believe that all the rules in the Bible (e.g. Leviticus) were constructed by men to act in the same way as conventional laws. People needed to be controlled so that there wasn't general lawlessness. What better way to make them "stick" than telling people that GOD said so! And when you throw in the threat of burning in Hell for all eternity, it sounds like a brilliant method concocted to control others. That said, I do believe that some of the biblical authors were divinely inspired and then struggled to put those experiences into human words.
What I have experienced:
I was raised Lutheran and abandoned the concept of the biblical God when I was an undergrad studying molecular biology. I spent many years as an agnostic. A year ago, I had a personal crisis (mentally) that caused me to investigate Vedanta philosophy (Hinduism) and Buddhism because I no longer wanted to rely on my little damaged ego to "run the show". I have since had deeply, deeply felt subjective experiences in which I felt a profound connection with "Spirit in 2nd person". I believe in God now as something that is beyond all that we see and is, by definition, indefinable. We cannot know, intellectually, that which is beyond the human mind.
I appreciate what all of you have contributed to this post. I especially resonated with the felt comments of you, LynnER, in that I actually believe we are all manifestations of this undefinable G-d. In the Bible, the concept of God is a human projection reversed. We are not made in God's image, any more than a blade of grass is made in God's image. God in the bible IS made in our image. The human ego made it so.
Thanks everyone.
Namaste.
:angel: >:D
For anyone that is interested in reading more about my experiences, check out my blog:
www.undercovertranssexual.org
Quote from: colin_pdx on January 30, 2007, 09:38:57 AM
What I believe:
The Bible was primarily developed by religious and state leaders who held the power in the city-states and wanted more power by controlling the beliefs of the citizens (who were mostly illiterate and had to go to church to be told what to do and believe). Many gospels were not included in the Bible because they conflicted with the rest of the texts. Some scholars and theologians believe (have demonstrated?) that these other gospels showed that Jesus was not the "son of God" and that we all have the potential for manifesting Christ-consciousness. Those that hold power DO NOT want "ordinary" citizens to believe that they, too, can be like Christ.
I was wondering when we would see the Da Vinci Code paraded as historical fact. You, of course, may believe whatever you wish. But the vast majority of scholars and historians have debunked that version of the canonization of scripture so soundly that it is amazing that anyone would even attempt to purport it as fact. Have you read these other gospels? I have. In fact, they do not deal with the issue you want to ascribe to them, except perhaps in a very peripheral way. They certainly did not have that as their agenda.
Kristi
Since the title is whether Christianity is truth or a myth I will give my views and of course you are entitled to yours as well.
I personally find it truth.
To start, I am considered a heretic by the mainstream churches. That is because I used their hate and scriptural limitations to drive me to find that truth. Not let it turn me to hate it or disprove it.
Every time I went beyond their doctrinal limitations they kicked me out. If they knew I am transgender they would as well.
The entire belief of Christianity is based on faith in what we don't see. Anyone can believe what they see. That takes no faith, just eyes. But to believe in that which we don't see takes faith as most think you're crazy or some sort of lunatic or fanatic.
The church world has gotten so much wrong and backwards they cause many to quit believing and make such a mockery out of God that an unbeliever doesn't see a people saved by grace and changed, but rather a bunch of looneys. (and many times rightly so)
The word of God says the signs would follow. The faith comes first. Today they look for signs first so they can believe and even the pharisees said come down from the cross that we might see and believe.
I cannot speak for other Christians but I do know whom I believe and I am persuaded he can keep my soul. I had faith and then saw the miracles.
I do know what it is like to have an out-of-body experience which I seldom share because it is only mocked by unbelievers. I have seen miraculous healings but that too, I hesitate to share, because like the out-of-body experience it is only mocked. Furthermore, people are supposed to be renewed in faith and not by signs and wonders. Not mine or any other person's.
In my case the Lord granted the signs because of my faith, not to give me faith.
I do not down those who do not believe. Everyone is entitled to their own belief and it is not up to me to judge. The sad part is that one day we will all stand before a judgment seat that some have seen in this life already and give an answer for what we believe.
You all can believe what you want. I have merely told you what and why and how I believe and how it differs from the mainstream churchworld and those who have persecuted so many here.
Take care.
Tiff
Kristi:
What I find amusing is how what I started with, "What I believe," was then flipped into, "I was wondering when we would see the Da Vinci Code paraded as historical fact." What I believe = paraded as historical fact? Hee. I never saw the Da Vinci Code. I've read what I posted in books discussing Gnosticism. Go ahead and rip that apart if you'd like, too. In similar vain: "it is amazing that anyone would even attempt to purport it as fact." Again, "What I believe" got flipped to "purport as fact." Lovely. Nice work. And then you state "In fact...except" in the second-to-last sentence. This couldn't get easier. Yet, I respect and honor you for the divine that you are, regardless of the words you use, nonetheless. Do you have anything useful to add?
Def. Faith belief that is not based on proof.
Def. Faith is a belief, trust, or confidence, not based merely on logic, reason, or empirical data, but based fundamentally on volition often associated with a transpersonal relationship with God, a higher power, a person, elements of nature, and/or a perception of the human race as a whole
Bible Def. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
I am a Christian. But I can not show you proof of my God except for what you see in me.
If I do not act as a loving caring person then you can dismiss may faith as being worthless and irrelevant
as may of you have already declare my faith to be. But if I am person of character who loves and cares for other even above myself; then you should at lest accept that my faith seems to work for me.
Many here at Susan's have declared in other posting that they have grown stronger because of all the struggles they have had to go thru.
I call this life a journey a train ground, it's a place for me to become the person God wants me to be. Yes I have and will continue to struggle thru this life, but one day, God will take me to a new and better world.
Just my opinion. ;)
:)
Jillieann
Quote from: Karen on January 30, 2007, 08:42:34 AM
Which model (http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/mp14) of Christianity are we referring to here?
The conservative, God-as-'Stern Father' model? (http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/mp14?b_start:int=1)
Or the liberal, 'nurturant God' model? (http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/mp14?b_start:int=4)
i [thought] jamesbrine & i were talking about the [conservative] god when i started this thread.. ::)
Quote from: Kristi on January 30, 2007, 09:30:20 AM
Big can of worms. But I hope you have better sources than these. As someone who reads and studies in both Greek and Hebrew, both of these sites are incredibly unscholarly and downright laughable.
Kristi
perhaps you may want to cite some of those [studies/books/links/sources] in [greek] and [hebrew] so that we can discuss them. :) i'll be listing more of my sources in time.
Is it just me or do others find it odd that people like to cite physical sources for something that isn't physical?
P.s. Melissa, thank you for digging up the link to that thread.
Quote from: Kiera on January 30, 2007, 06:25:00 PMjames and katia, why just pick on christianity?? All of the "religious systems" today seem to be more or less flawed and prone to suffer from some form of misconception and malady which I think is due in large part to modern day life and our condition as modern day "man". (speaking generically here, ok?) lol ;)
Why pick on the Christianity? It just happens to be the one that is so ingrained and integrated into the American culture (among others) that they can't get away from it. We're just a month removed from the Christmas season, after all, and a non-Christian with a pulse can attest to how pervasive Christianity is during that time. It's in the greetings, parties (notably with family), sales and stores, decorations on buildings, holidays, sporting events, television programming and ads, etc. And Christianity is in *politics* and (implicitly) *education* year round, and they are two of the most formative institutions in a society. It can grate on one's nerves, and since non-Christians often lack a means of recourse, they're relegated to ranting about it on Internet message boards.
Maybe agnostics and atheists could use their own "non-religious" days of celebration. :P I'd look for something in August, because of the lack of holidays in there already.
Quote from: Kiera on January 30, 2007, 06:25:00 PMI on the other hand would feel much more comfortable with the agnostic label - I'd rather not know what to believe and attempt to embrace all than just totally give up all purpose and understanding as being completely pointless and lost!!
Agnosticism has pretty broad meaning. I'm in the "ignostic" subset that ignores religion as literal accounts because of the high improbability of their accuracy, and often the inability to verify such compilations. "Embrace all" rings a bit ambiguous to me, so I can't really comment on it. However, it is my belief that even if all miracle-based religions are wrong, I believe our lives are still with meaning: it's just that we need to give them meaning. We don't need to do someone's will so that we can have a good afterlife -- we can love each other so that others (and their offspring) can lead richer lives even after we are dead.
Quote from: Jillieann on January 30, 2007, 09:54:06 PMIf I do not act as a loving caring person then you can dismiss may faith as being worthless and irrelevant
as may of you have already declare my faith to be. But if I am person of character who loves and cares for other even above myself; then you should at lest accept that my faith seems to work for me.
Therefore, religion should be a personal thing. It's not something to be *pushed on* others through compulsory attention but to be *evaluated by* others on their own terms.
Quote from: colin_pdx on January 30, 2007, 06:00:02 PM
Kristi:
I never saw the Da Vinci Code. I've read what I posted in books discussing Gnosticism. Go ahead and rip that apart if you'd like, too. In similar vain: "it is amazing that anyone would even attempt to purport it as fact." Again, "What I believe" got flipped to "purport as fact." Lovely. Nice work. And then you state "In fact...except" in the second-to-last sentence. This couldn't get easier.
OK, Colin. Now I understand where you are coming from. Sorry if I came to a wrong conclusion about that. It
sounded like you were going somewhere else.
As I said, you have every right to be a gnostic if you wish and I would defend that right, even if it is not where I am coming from. Some even see gnostic influences in the Gospel of John. We can discuss that sometime if you wish, but I'm afraid that gnosticism is getting pretty far afield of the intention of this topic.
Quote from: katia on January 30, 2007, 06:00:02 PMYet, I respect and honor you for the divine that you are, regardless of the words you use, nonetheless. Do you have anything useful to add?
As I respect you, but not because either of us are divine.
Quote from: colin_pdx on January 30, 2007, 06:00:02 PM
perhaps you may want to cite some of those [studies/books/links/sources] in [greek] and [hebrew] so that we can discuss them. Smiley i'll be listing more of my sources in time.
OK, if you really want them, here are my primary resources:
Biblia Hebraica Stuttgardensia c. 1983 ed. W. Rudolph and H.P Ruger
A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament ed. William L. Holladay c 1971 by E. J. Brill, the Netherlands
Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece c 1979 Biblia-Druck Stuttgart
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 2nd ed. by Walter Bauer, ed. Gingrich and Danker, University of Chicago Press, 1979
And, for a good, concise history of the Christian movement, rather unbiased, I suggest the following:
A History of Christianity In the World: from persecution to uncertainty by Clyde L. Manschreck, c 1974 by Prentice Hall, inc Englewood Cliffs, NJ
I am not sure if any of the above are available online, but they may be. But please know that when I call resources laughable it is because I consider the linguistic and historical skills of the author lacking. I don't mind if you disagree, but I do have a right to voicing an educated opinion.
For a fair discussion and critique of Christianity and its problems in society I like this blog: http://ceruleansanctum.com/2007/01/busting-myths-about-christianity-assessing-myths-4-6.html
As far as whether Christianity itself is a myth, I guess it depends on how you define myth. So I'm not even sure we are talking to each other yet.
For myself, I'll give a really quick overview. This is my story in a nutshell, and it is a bit unique. My background is in science, as is my undergraduate degree. I grew up in a nominally Christian home and was pretty much an agnostic in my early years. I eventually studied paleontology with one of my heroes, then went on to study geochemistry (the study of the origin of the elements) with a leading scientist from the Max Planck Institute. Instead of becoming (as some of my colleagues did) more grounded in agnostic and atheistic thought, I found the explanations of what I studied sorely lacking because none could explain a good reason for the orderliness found in every aspect of the universe. (The laws of thermodynamics predict just the opposite, for example.) This led me to further explorations of the grand unified theory, or GUT. This also proved intellectually fruitless to me in respect to an order in the universe.
So, unlike others, I was intellectually driven to explore God. I was told that Christians especially were stupid, uneducated, and just plain sub-normal. Although I have been appalled at some things that have happened in the church, I also found, to my surprise, an amazing amount of good. And I came across Christian intellectuals the likes of Francis Shaeffer, Dietrich Boenhoffer, Helmut Thielicke, and C. S. Lewis, individuals whose intellect had led them to embrace Christianity. Through a long process I came to embrace it, not only with my mind, but in my heart, not just as some kind of fire insurance, but as a way of life. My studies, including my graduate degrees, have taken a different course since my scientist-wannabe days, but I reject the notion that one much check his/her brain at the door of the church in order to be a Christian. Quite the opposite, I found no such unity of thought in any other religious system. I say this not to offend anyone, for I know others on here disagree. But please do give Christians the right to be heard without being put down as being uneducated or naive because of their faith.
Peace, Please!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
From the years that I'd studied christianity, I can see that there are many ways that people take things, there are certainly more than a dozen different beliefs out there. I was enrolled in a private school for that very reason other than safety. I lived in the ghetto drive by shootings and murders at the local schools were nothing new, gang rapings were an everyday occurance. I was forced to goto school that was set up in that format, I enjoyed it until one day I had an ipheny*sp that I was brainwashed to belive certain things, over the years I have tried my hardest to forget it.
You have the right wing christian radicals that are the utmost nutty people you'll ever meet.
Then you've got people who do the healing touching thing, ::) . You've got people like my sister that gave away more money than most people make in a lifetime, of her previous husbands money, it went to a church. He lost a house and everything else because she was a giver and believed she would be on the rite hand of god by doing so..../she has turned out to be the most selfish person I know, my nephew is in drug rehab because of her ways....its all about her and how pretty she looks the 4 kids come last, did christianity teach her this....Im uunsure about that kinda. How convenient it is better to give than receive! I hate the saying, and find it untrue, I've given all my life and got the shaft everytime.
I'm still christian but I dont follow the teachings much if at all, I dont go to church, I see no reason to. I work 7- 16 hour days and havent got time to anyways. People that say you havent got time to give to the lord?! Umm listen its like this you do your thing, I'll do my thing, we'll see who comes on top and who's bills are paid on time.
Still dont know what god you want to believe in? pick one its all the same you either go to heave/safe place or straight to hell to burn alive,........actually I believe Hell is here on earth, why else would god have you suffer pain and endure everything else bad in life.
Quote from: Mindy on February 01, 2007, 01:23:46 AM
actually I believe Hell is here on earth, why else would god have you suffer pain and endure everything else bad in life.
Earth may be Hell, but the Kingdom of Heaven is within you.
Quote,........actually I believe Hell is here on earth, why else would god have you suffer pain and endure everything else bad in life.
My answer.
QuoteMany here at Susan's have declared in other posting that they have grown stronger because of all the struggles they have had to go thru.
I call this life a journey a train ground, it's a place for me to become the person God wants me to be. Yes I have and will continue to struggle thru this life, but one day, God will take me to a new and better world.
Jillieann
hey!
I would like to thank everyone for the imput onto this topic. To answer a question that was going around about what Christianity I was reffering to is the Christianity found in the nicene creed. (http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm) The belief in this creed sums up at a basic level what it means to be a christian. By christian I mean one who holds these beliefs to be true.
Second, I think my intent of the thread was mis-understood and I apologize if I gave the wrong impression. I was looking for arguments to support atheism not attack Christianity. My question was why would someone choose atheism over any other religion if they felt Christianity was a lie? Hope this clears up any mis-understandings about my intent on my request.
In regard to the question of suffering and why God allows it that you read "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis if you would like a Christian theological perspective.
Fourthly, some good sources for reading on this topic are:
Jesus under Fire by Moreland & Wilkens
Does God exist. Debate between Kai Neilson & J.P. Moreland
Philosphical foundations for a Christian Worldview.
I believe that the most important message that Christ delivered was that we should love each other. I have no problem with that message. I believe that religion has been contorted as it has materialized into groups and organizations. Anytime power and money get involved, the message has changed.
Why would anyone choose atheism? When your fundamental belief system is pulled out from underneath you and people who you have respected as leaders are proven to be false, it is easily accomplished. Remember, atheism is a binary opposite of belief. For the believers, their faith is their way of life (one of the definitions). For the atheist, he develops a moral code and life structure based on other values. For the believer, many actions promise punishment for sin and blessings for obedience. For the atheist, all you've got is what you can make for yourself.
My beliefs have been thrown in the blender in my lifetime, mixed up, and spewn up. I've been picking up the pieces and trying to sort out that mess ever since. Am I an atheist? No. Am I a believer? I want to believe. But in the mean time I am finding it much easier to follow the fundamental principal of love that Christ taught. It has no constraints and no bounds and it is so easily shared. It is applicable to every person from every walk of life. It is a universal concept that spoils if confined. I do believe that the things you hold dear should make you happy in THIS life. And love does that my friends.
Be righteous to one another... share the love. Peace be unto you my friends.
Chin up!
Your un-pastor of the un-church,
Cindi
I hope that folks on both sides of the debate will stop and watch this CNN report. It helps put things in perspective for me.
http://tinyurl.com/yxewot
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Thanks, Kristi, for posting the link to the CNN report. I had seen a story about her some time ago, and I was touched, as I was this time, by her experience and her paintings. I have come to know Christ again, recently. I DO experience him. I do believe. I resonate much more with the mystical traditions in Christianity and Vedanta than I do with the dogmatic proclamations and rules in the Bible, though. Thus the exploration of gnosticism, which, as you said, is outside the scope of this thread. Just to further define the frame I am coming from, though: Saint Teresa of Avila, herself, experienced sequential "rooms" in the "Castle", the last of which was Union with God, outside of space, time and personhood, beyond the realms of heaven and hell. But I will admit that I am new to exploring mysticism, and my thoughts and beliefs on the matter are in constant flux, unfolding as I unfold/evolve in my understanding and experience of the great mystery.
i did watch it, yet i wouldn't consider her talent the result of a [divine] miracle. it's evident that she has a [beautiful mind] as explained here;
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/89/beautiful-minds.html
Hi Katia,
That movie is one of my favorites. It's a wonderful story. Obviously we have differening perceptions of events because of differing presuppositions shaping our world views. If one has decided against the possibility of the supernatural, then he/she will not be open to any interpretation of events that includes divine intervention. That's fine, I can certainly live with that. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.miconejo.net%2Fimg%2Fforum%2Ficon_smile.gif&hash=b8daa0f3e8e04527094be48d5f8834032e3a621d)
Colin, my favorite quote by St. Theresa of Avila, which has been very meaningful to me is as follows:
Christ has no body now on earth but ours.
No hands but ours; No feet but ours;
Ours are the eyes to view Christ's compassion to the world;
Ours are the feet with which Christ is to go about doing good;
Ours are the hands with which Christ is to bless now.
-St. Theresa of Avila
Peace, Please!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
I love how the alleged bible is quoted in this thread as if it means anything.
The subject of this thread is "Christianity: Truth or Myth." I am going to make a simple point about that. Belief in the alleged god, the alleged jesus any of these religious beleifs is by definition completely irrational.
It is exactly as rational to beleive an alien will fly out of the sky and deliver you to paradise on a unicorn with an anal probe as it is to believe in the propeganda of Christianity.
It makes no sense. It's not rational. It's lala land. There is no proof. Zero, none, nada.
I find the Spice Girls music strangely and irrationally comforting too, but that doesn't make them the freaking mesiahs.
Bri
hey
thanks for your post Brianna. You say that there is no proof for Christianity and is irrational.Ok, your intitled to your beliefs. How far would you say that the belief in a faith is irrational. Is the concept of other faiths irrational, or God itself be irrational and if so what makes atheism rational? I do agree that one can not prove to someone that Christianity is real or that "god" in fact is real but that does not mean that there aren't arguments that support the theist claim.
My other question for you is how do you define yourself Jewish. I know in other posts you call yourself a Jewish Agnostic/Atheist. I understand this question may be personal so please feel free not to answer. Thanks, James
Well James,
It's not a "belief" that Christianity is irrational, as far as I can understand. It's a fact. So let me turn that question around. Why would you choose to believe in something irrational?
Here's a brief list of 4 other irrational things to believe in.
1. That the color of your panties influences the weather.
2. That Miss Cleo is a psychic genius
3. That aliens are behind the spy kids movies
4. That Mel Gibson is not a raving anti-semite
Bri
Ps- I am a Jewish agnostic. How is that unclear?
hey, thanks for the quick response. First I don't believe Christianity to be irrational. If you wish we can discuss some arguments for and agianst the Christian God.
Second, about the Jewish Agnostic I was under the impression that Jews follow the teaching of the Torah and the belief in YHWH. I'm confident that Jewish thinking does not seperate spiritual from secular so I was thrown off when some who said they are Jewish didn't follow Jewish religous teachings. Sorry for the misunderstanding
James
Your misunderstanding about the Jewish faith is fine. Besides, it's tangental to this conversation for you to concern yourself with it.
I am going to have to put on my reporters hat here, James, and point out that you are avoiding the point I am making. Here it is, one more time. There is no reason whatsoever to rationally beleive in God, the alleged Jesus or the Christian faith. Faith, by definition, is highly irrational.
If you are going to indulge in irrational beleifs, it would seem to me that there are so many others that don't have the devastating cultural consequenses of Christianity. Further examples would be the moon being made of blue cheese, astrology or even the urban myth that having sex in front of the TV acts as a contraceptive. Why not believe in these instead of Jesus? Fewer gays and transsexuals would suffer.
Bri
hey
what you are saying is that it is irrational to believe in God. I hope I understand your point.
faith:belief that is not based on proof
rational:having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense
I think you are misunderstanding faith in the Christian context of the word, faith does not have to be irrational as you say it is. Most intellectual Christians would hold to a rational faith (such as myself and Kristi) This does not mean it requires no belief in the unseen, rather belief and reason work together.The Christian gospel requires rational faith. But lets for a moment assume faith is irrational there are still many good arguments that point to the nature of a God. i.e. morality. My request with you is to investagate the claim that belief in the alleged (by this I think you mean son of God Jesus) Jesus is irrational.
To assume that all Christians hate gays and transsexuals is a generalisation. There are GBLT friendly churches out there, and many gays and transsexuals are religious people.
Quote from: Debbie_Anne on February 02, 2007, 06:51:09 PM
To assume that all Christians hate gays and transsexuals is a generalisation.
Just as it would be to assume that all gays and transsexuals hate Christians. :) Truth is, I don't believe it's christianity or christians in general that upsets many people, but it's how we have been treated by many christians.
Melissa
To politly state the following, I believe Christianity and this thread have heuristic value. I think if you go back to the beginning you can see that my intent at least was to learn of anothers position. Even lately with my brief dialouge with Brianna my goal was to discuss rational arguments on whether belief in the "alleged Jesus" is rational. Maybe I'm missing your point about what heuristic value means and if so I apologize greatly and then ask that you clearify it up for me in simplier words.
Thanks
James
Yes, it is a mistake to say that generally Christians hate and despise gays and transsexuals. It's also a mistake to say that Christians don't hate and despise gays and transsexuals. This is also a generality.
It *is* factual to say that Christians went to a gay bar, tricked Matthew Shepard into accepting a ride and then tied him to the bumper of their truck with a chain and tortured him to death - in God's name because they thought they were empowered to murder gays. That's a pejorative fact, but it is the reality we live in. And this is why, as a transsexual woman, I think Christianity is dangerous to my health, the family I hope to one day have and the country I live in.
I don't know James. Something that I found scary that you would probably find comforting was a Youtube clip on my favorite site, www.slate.com. It had a Christian minister talking about the utter irrationality of his beliefs, and how no one else could sense them or understand them. I have no doubt this is as equally as powerful an emotion for you.
I do worry what others experiencing this psychological phenomina feel empowered to do - which is why I mentioned Matthew Shepard.
Bri
Ps- The reason I call "jesus" the alleged jesus is that one day it might be proved that god does exist and that there is a messiah. As a Jew, I believe that if a Messiah comes, it will not have been the alleged jesus.
where about is it on the link?
Quote from: Kristi on February 02, 2007, 01:19:38 PM
my favorite quote by St. Theresa of Avila, which has been very meaningful to me is as follows:
Christ has no body now on earth but ours.
No hands but ours; No feet but ours;
Ours are the eyes to view Christ's compassion to the world;
Ours are the feet with which Christ is to go about doing good;
Ours are the hands with which Christ is to bless now.
-St. Theresa of Avila
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
:'( that's beautiful, Kristi. But again I am a Christian....what do I know, right?
I agree that the movie is a wonderful story. You don't need hard facts to explain faith. Faith is a natural feeling which comes from all of us who believe in God. It is not based on scientific proof or any kind of evidence. You either have it or you don't. It is obvious that some of you don't have it; I have realized that a long, long time ago, and I am perfectly fine with that. However, if you are not able to show some respect for our beliefs, just move on to a different topic and don't post any kind of mockery, for it is very rude and uncalled for.
Quote from: AnomieAssassin on February 02, 2007, 07:49:20 PM
I think that I just elaborated on why I usually avoid these types of threads...
By replying to this thread, you have definitely not ignored it.
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Dear Tinkerbell,
If I were to make a list of things I have come to enjoy in the forum, I think your insight and companionship would be among my top three. You have my utter repect as both a fellow Susan's op, and as a successful transsexual role model.
That said, I don't think anyone is here mocking Christianity. I think there is examination and incredulity - but I don't think it's mocking. And I also think that Christians wouldn't get as defensive about secular scrutiny if they didn't secretly know we had a point.
Bri-lala
Sorry Spacekat but I disagree with this
QuoteChristians wouldn't get as defensive about secular scrutiny if they didn't secretly know we had a point.
The funny thing is that I don't think that non-christians have a point; that is just an opinion which I respect but don't necessarily share.
la unica de las unicas,
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Quote from: Brianna on February 02, 2007, 08:13:26 PM
And I also think that Christians wouldn't get as defensive about secular scrutiny if they didn't secretly know we had a point.
Christians wouldn't get so defensive if you didn't call them irrational and compare their beliefs to believing in aliens or the Spice Girls.
Quote from: Brianna on February 02, 2007, 05:49:36 PM...
The subject of this thread is "Christianity: Truth or Myth." I am going to make a simple point about that. Belief in the alleged god, the alleged jesus any of these religious beleifs is by definition completely irrational.
...
No. Not in my view (i.e. opinion) of it all.
It is very logical in most cases and totally subjective.
The evidence is all around, but it is like looking at the moon and seeing an angel.. or dragon, or rabbit or my personal favorite of a duck. I.e. the 'evidence' is subjective. Just because you, or I, or they are blind to it does not mean it does not exist. ;) Or does it?
(=
That's a very good point, Debbie_Anne. :)
Quote from: AnomieAssassin on February 02, 2007, 08:01:20 PM
Quote from: Tinkerbell on February 02, 2007, 07:54:59 PM
By replying to this thread, you have definitely not ignored it.
This thread is sure helping me out a lot with procrastination, though!
I love procrastination...
Um, go watch a leek spin or something. ;)
Melissa
Quote from: Tinkerbell on February 02, 2007, 08:19:41 PM
Sorry Spacekat but I disagree with this QuoteChristians wouldn't get as defensive about secular scrutiny if they didn't secretly know we had a point.
The funny thing is that I don't think that non-christians have a point; that is just an opinion which I respect but don't necessarily share.
la unica de las unicas,
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
I have to agree with Tink. I can respect a well thought out opinion, even if it is 180* from my own. There have been precious few of those on here. We are all too aware that some hate Christians because they were treated badly by some of them. While this treatment is inexcusable, I see that as a poor excuse to make unfair statements about the nature of Christianity. I have a book called The Martyr's Mirror which is about 6" thick and chronicles many stories of Christians who were persecuted and killed for their faith. Who is the virtuous one in that case?
I have shared that I came to Christianity because, among other things, it was rational and logical. Though I realize this may be a new concept for some to imagine, I am not alone in my opinion. Here is a partial list of some famous people who had the same opinion of faith, and who dedicated their work to the glory of God as Christians:
Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543) Astronomy
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) Mathematics and Astronomy
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) Astronomy, physics, Dynamics
Rene Descartes (1596-1650) Mathematics, Philosophy, Other Sciences
Isaac Newton (1642-1727) optics, mechanics, and mathematics
Robert Boyle (1791-1867) Chemistry and gases
Michael Faraday (1791-1867) electricity, magnetism, revolutionized physics
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) Genetics
Kelvin (William Thompson) (1824-1907) physics
Max Planck (1858-1947) Quantum Theory
Albert Einstein (1879-1955) time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2) (technically a deist)
Some list of dummies, huh? None of these individuals thought the Christian faith was irrational. In fact, all were quite outspoken proponents of the faith.
Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Uh.
From what I have heard at least one on that list was under house arrest and threatened with torture unless they recanted their heretical ways.
*shrug* That is the fun thing about history; The winning side writes it.
P.s. why is Albert Einstein on the list if as you put it he was technically a deist? Is not that list a list of those "who dedicated their work to the glory of God as Christians", or did Christianity include deism when I wasn't looking?
hey.
Christians make mistakes, yes they did call Galileo a hertic & treated him with an oppressive attitude. Has happened throughout history? YES! We are on the same page. Lets try for a moment move beyond this.There is more the Christian faith then its past. I simply ask that we get beyond these repetative comments and discuss some doctrines or intellectual arguments for or agianst God. If I wanted to disprove atheism on the basis of historical evil all I have to do is look at Hittler or Stalin. Both these men took their thoughts from Fredrick Nitchze an Athiest philospher (the creation of the superhuman). The point of this thread was never to continually bring up the pain of the Christian church (whether through their behavior towards the GBLT or treatment of historical figures) but instead to intellectually discuss the claims of the Christian faith. Look at the title of the thread CHRISTIANITY: TRUTH OR MYTH?
this question can not be answered by an examination of the Christian churches past and current affairs. Let us discuss the issues that surrond the topic.
James
Yes?
Is that not what we are doing?
I pointed out what I perceived to be flaws in a stance.
Personally I think the question of the thread was answered by:
Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 30, 2007, 05:13:57 AM
Why does it have to be truth or myth? Why can't it be truth and myth at the same time?
Because that is indeed what it is.
hey, sorry to continue my post.
"And I also think that Christians wouldn't get as defensive about secular scrutiny if they didn't secretly know we had a point"
Maybe christians would get defensive if secular scrutiny had a point. This could be very true. I would love to test this theory and hear a point. All I have heard is an assertion that christianity is irrational, no argument for the claim or that Christians hate people that are different. As mentioned above I would LOVE to discuss the atheist/other religous perspectives with solid intellectual arguments.
The way I see it is that the base problem with faith is that it is not intellectual to begin with.
Plop an devout Atheist and Christian and any other faiths you wish an show them a pretty reflection on a building, or a striking cloud scape complete with majestic heavenly rays of light. We tend to see what we expect to see; If you look for miracles you tend find them. The nice Atheist sees an interesting reflection on a building, the Christian a heavenly angel. .. That pattern is quite prevalent from what I have seen.
I am all for chattering about such topics by the by.
Quote from: Kimberly on February 02, 2007, 11:51:54 PM
Uh.
From what I have heard at least one on that list was under house arrest and threatened with torture unless they recanted their heretical ways.
*shrug* That is the fun thing about history; The winning side writes it.
I agree that a lot of people try to rewrite history. Historians try to write God out of history nowadays. It is the politically correct thing to do. Do some original research. You will find facts such as these: Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centred system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favourite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centred system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, he saw his system as concerning the issue of how the Bible should be interpreted.
Quote from: Kimberly on February 02, 2007, 11:51:54 PMP.s. why is Albert Einstein on the list if as you put it he was technically a deist? Is not that list a list of those "who dedicated their work to the glory of God as Christians", or did Christianity include deism when I wasn't looking?
I included him because, while he never claimed to be a deist, I would categorize him there. He in no way found the Christian faith irrational. I included that statement out of intellectual honesty. However, I'm glad you asked. Look up this remarkable man. Here is a little of what you'll find: Albert Einstein (1879-1955) is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
If you have questions about any others I've included on the list, just ask.
Now, please understand that I did not give that list in order to prove Christianity, or God in general. Each one is entitled to his/her own beliefs. I only mentioned it to show that not everyone who is a believer is a total idiot, as some on here want to claim.
Peace, Please!
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Not that it means much but my view is once a person has been pressured and given into another's view anything there after they say is suspect that it is indeed their view. From what I can tell Galileo was not a stupid man.
I am not aware of Albert Einstein beliefs either political nor spiritual, but I am aware of a number of quotations apparently made by him:
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty."
- Albert Einstein
"I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil."
- Albert Einstein
"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."
- Albert Einstein
But, like any other regurgitated data, the authenticity is suspect.
However, my point was not Albert Einstein's beliefs but rather that, in my opinion a deist is not a Christian. If you would like, you can call me a deist, however, I am NOT a Christian and would be offended to be labeled as one, or under any OTHER religious classification.
QuoteSecond, about the Jewish Agnostic I was under the impression that Jews follow the teaching of the Torah and the belief in YHWH. I'm confident that Jewish thinking does not seperate spiritual from secular so I was thrown off when some who said they are Jewish didn't follow Jewish religous teachings. Sorry for the misunderstanding
James,
It isn't necessary to believe in G-d to be a Jew. I am Jewish and agnostic. I observe the holidays of my ancestors, and find my own meaning in them. The teachings of my tradition at least partially inform how I live in this world. An important aspect of Judaism is to question and debate. We don't take a rabbi's word for what the teachings might mean. Even the name of g-d doesn't necessarily denote a supreme being, the name itself is that which cannot be named.
zythyra
QuoteAll I have heard is an assertion that christianity is irrational
Isn't religon and spirituality, in essence, all irrational? It hinges on a belief in the spirit realms, or entities of those places, which, I might mention, are not based in the physical world, and it's the physical world that relies on being rational and concrete. So any belief in a god, or a source, or a higher or other power is irrational at best, because it's not based on cold, hard facts... But that's not saying it's wrong or untrue. :) I'm a big god ( and Fae ) lover myself.
But that's all. I won't disturb the subject any more.
Arias;
Why of course Christianity appears irrational. The word of God says that God hath chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Not bow nor arrow, but his Spirit bringing forth his word.
I imagine it appeared irrational when Abraham came down from the mount and told all his male members that they had to be circumcised. Today people would look at him and wonder what he was smoking on that mount.
It probably didn't make much sense when Moses stood before the Red Sea and told the children of Israel to stand fast and see the salvation of God prior to the parting of the waters. And if I am right it wasn't presto-changeo. A strong east wind blew all night to part them.
It probably didn't make much sense when the children of Israel walked around Jericho praising God.
It probably didn't make much sense when a virgin told her betrothed she was with child from God. That would go over real well today.
I'm sure it didn't make much sense when Isaiah walked up to the religious people naked and barefoot and told them to repent. That's about like us transgenders going into a church and telling them to repent.
The Bible says that God hath chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise and the weak things of this world to confound the things that are mighty and the base things and the things rejected.
It seems odd that the religious people rejected the Lord and in like manner today they reject what doesn't fit their mold of the perfect Christian.
It may just be that some of the people here that are considered an abomination to the holier-than-thous have a better relationship with the Lord because they know they need him.
While mainstream Christianty is about a joke, I do still believe in the Lord and my faith is in him because I know that even some of the Jews I have met believe what they can't see and try to keep the law. By faith I beleive that others, both Jew and Gentile have looked as fools and been mocked for the Lord's sake.
In closing, I do believe that Christianity appears irrational, but that's how I like it. By faith and not by sight.
Tiff
Rational thought from the scientific definition is much different than the "rational" thought processes we define for ourselves.
Rational or scientific thought proceeds as follows:
Hypothesis: The big guess. What might explain the things that we see. What overlaying principle may provide the answer?
Fact collection: Observation and collection of samples, data, or other relevant information. Here we find supporting evidence, discover the mathematic, and explore the unknown. We attempt to prove and disprove the Hypothesis. If we find related evidence that does not support the hypothesis, it must be redefined. If we find no observable and repeatable evidence to support the hypothesis, it remains a big guess.
Hypothesis and fact collection occur in no particular order. They are usually performed in tandem. As we collect data, we refine our hypothesis. At some point we find repeatable methodology to create desirable results, evidence that can be verified, we get peer review. The hypothesis must be redefined to eliminate misleading information and other explanations based on the evidence collected.
Theory: After the evidence is collected and the hypothesis seems to explain that evidence, we create a theory. It is the best explanation that we can create to explain the evidence. A theory is never absolute. But it is the strongest statement of "fact" that rational thought will present. For example, we have the "theory of gravity". Yes, it is ONLY a theory that if you drop a ball, it will fall, but it is fairly well accepted that it will fall. It is repeatable and can be shown to anyone whether they believe it will fall or not.
This is the process of rational thought. Many of our cultural beliefs will never merit the test of rational thought. One can find numerous beliefs in economics/politics for example where there are many presumptions (hypothesis) to produce desired results. We clamor to make societal changes to implement the presumptions without collecting the facts in a study. And then, we as a society either believe or disbelieve that the change was the correct thing to do. In this example, irrational thought made change, a belief prevailed, and no facts were ever produced to create the theory. Yet belief in the hypothesis remains strong.
Religious belief, by nature, can not stand up to the test of the rational or scientific thought process. It is a different animal. If you believe that flying red kites can cure cancer for example, you can perform double blind tests with cancer patients. You would have some fly red kites and some play marbles. You would collect the results and then based on the evidence, you may change your hypothesis. You may discover that flying kites has no bearing on a cancer cure. But here's the thing. You BELIEVE that flying red kites cures cancer. The ability to produce repeatable results, complete the experiment, or provide data for someone else to review is not relevant. You have a belief for which rational thought is not relevant. Your faith in red kite flying remains secure. This is irrational thought. For another example, consider nutritional supplements and diet aids. Some are being proven to work, some are not, and for the remainder, we have the true believers.
The faith that we have is based on presumptions of what we believe are facts. For example, those of use who are Christians, Muslims, or Jews, may presume that the writings of the old prophets (compiled in the holy scriptures) are fact. And based on that presumption, we attempt to logically discuss our faith.
The problem is that those facts considered the foundations of faith will not hold up to rational (scientific) scrutiny. That is not to say that they may not some day be understood. For example, we now know how weather works to some degree. While we no longer make sacrifices to the rain gods, we might pray for rain, understanding that if the weather front doesn't come in, it ain't gonna rain.
There are many theories yet to be formulated, many facts to be found, many things yet to be understood. We still do not "know" everything. The concepts of irrational thought may lead us there, for irrational thought leads to curiosity and fact finding. However, it is painful to see irrational thought impede rational thought in our society. Consider the irrational problems that old time physicians had when they had a need to examine a corpse. Had they not been able to examine the corpse, we would not know very much about the human body. The rational thought of medicine would have been stopped in its tracks.
We see the word irrational as carrying a negative connotation. And indeed it often does. Yet, in the close examination of the term, it is helpful to understand exactly what it means when we consider what we believe. Faith by strict definition is categorized as irrational in this context for it is founded on belief of things not seen or observed, of truth unproven and undefined. Yet so many irrational aspects of our lives are necessary to lead happy lives. Love, hope, happiness, and many other basic human characteristics depend on irrational thought. Yup, faith is in there with them.
Cindi
i'm against [all] organized religions, mainly because their followers [teach] fear, ignorance, bigotry and hatred amongst themselves. they [herd their children] like cattle into the slaughter on their teachings. many religious people i meet are so brainwashed that they truly do not think they are, and anyone who lives differently will go to [hell]. christians are known to do all of these things and it is unhealthy for them to criticize, hate and judge others the way they do. they constantly [force] their own beliefs on the world, no matter if anyone else shares in their faith or not. this occurs because [christianity] teaches people that god's word is the only word and the way, and so christians [must] have faith in that, and they [impose their beliefs on everyone else]. here's the thing; nobody cares what faith you are, believe what you will, and live your own life, but also grant others the same. step back and let the world marry whom they love, have abortions if they need to be done... [even if you don't approve] maybe if christians would [stop] trying to be the [religious police], playing god by making people do as you do, people might look better at christians. religion [does not] belong in school, marriage or government. you cannot and should not pattern an entire way of living for everyone just because many years ago, a bunch of men wrote the bible and [told] people that god exists. until we have actual [proof], our [laws] and [morals] should have no religious influences whatsoever.
as you know i do not believe in deities from any religion. i respect the fact that each individual has the [free choice] to practice the religion they choose. i [have no problems] with people who [follow] a particular belief but [I don't agree with the theology]. however, i don't let that come into the way when dealing with people as i have friends and family from a variety of belief systems.
i was [raised] a christian and i honestly [never believed]. i was tossed out of sunday school more than once for asking questions the teacher could not answer and because i absolutely would not accept "because that is the way god wants it" to be an adequate answer. i have read the bible more than once cover to cover among other religious texts, talked with people of different faiths and even a college professor who teaches religion [in both secular and religious institutions] and have come to the [conclusion myself] that deities [don't exist] from the [same evidence] some of you use to believe in them. i respect your choice to do as you will, i'd like to receive the same respect back in return but i don't expect it because it's rarely forthcoming.
Quote from: jamesBrine on February 04, 2007, 01:10:09 AM
hey, (If you find my words offensive I apologize in advance)
"here's the thing; nobody cares what faith you are, believe what you will, and live your own life, but also grant others the same. step back and let the world marry whom they love, have abortions if they need to be done... " Katia
I agree katia, let me believe what I want. Does it matter whether it is rational or irrational? harmful or not? I should be allowed to kill someone if I choose. Right? Let me live my life how I choose. If I choose to kill people thats my choice. Heck, if we are letting people do as they please lets let the religous groups play police because we need to let them believe what they choose. You may not have to listen to them, but don't they have a right to say it, after all its their right to live their own life. Isn't it? My only request is to pilage, murder, steal, and watch abit of survivor. After all it is my life.
James, I've worked twenty years to reestablish relationships with my family. I've done nothing but take and eat the dish you just served for over two decades. I've never returned anything but love to my family. I have yet to kill anyone.
I'm locking this topic.
Cindi