Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

christianity: truth or myth?

Started by katia, January 30, 2007, 01:37:34 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Brianna

Dear Tinkerbell,

If I were to make a list of things I have come to enjoy in the forum, I think your insight and companionship would be among my top three. You have my utter repect as both a fellow Susan's op, and as a successful transsexual role model.

That said, I don't think anyone is here mocking Christianity. I think there is examination and incredulity - but I don't think it's mocking. And I also think that Christians wouldn't get as defensive about secular scrutiny if they didn't secretly know we had a point.

Bri-lala
  •  

tinkerbell

Sorry Spacekat but I disagree with this
QuoteChristians wouldn't get as defensive about secular scrutiny if they didn't secretly know we had a point.
The funny thing is that I don't think that  non-christians have a point; that is just an opinion which I respect but don't necessarily share.

la unica de las unicas,

tinkerbell :icon_chick:
  •  

Debbie_Anne

Quote from: Brianna on February 02, 2007, 08:13:26 PM
And I also think that Christians wouldn't get as defensive about secular scrutiny if they didn't secretly know we had a point.

Christians wouldn't get so defensive if you didn't call them irrational and compare their beliefs to believing in aliens or the Spice Girls. 
  •  

Kimberly

Quote from: Brianna on February 02, 2007, 05:49:36 PM...
The subject of this thread is "Christianity: Truth or Myth." I am going to make a simple point about that. Belief in the alleged god, the alleged jesus any of these religious beleifs is by definition completely irrational.
...

No. Not in my view (i.e. opinion) of it all.

It is very logical in most cases and totally subjective.


The evidence is all around, but it is like looking at the moon and seeing an angel.. or dragon, or rabbit or my personal favorite of a duck. I.e. the 'evidence' is subjective. Just because you, or I, or they are blind to it does not mean it does not exist. ;) Or does it?
(=
  •  

Brianna

That's a very good point, Debbie_Anne. :)
  •  

Melissa

Quote from: AnomieAssassin on February 02, 2007, 08:01:20 PM
Quote from: Tinkerbell on February 02, 2007, 07:54:59 PM
By replying to this thread, you have definitely not ignored it.
This thread is sure helping me out a lot with procrastination, though!

I love procrastination...
Um, go watch a leek spin or something. ;)

Melissa
  •  

Suzy

Quote from: Tinkerbell on February 02, 2007, 08:19:41 PM
Sorry Spacekat but I disagree with this
QuoteChristians wouldn't get as defensive about secular scrutiny if they didn't secretly know we had a point.
The funny thing is that I don't think that  non-christians have a point; that is just an opinion which I respect but don't necessarily share.
la unica de las unicas,
tinkerbell :icon_chick:

I have to agree with Tink.  I can respect a well thought out opinion, even if it is 180* from my own.  There have been precious few of those on here.  We are all too aware that some hate Christians because they were treated badly by some of them.  While this treatment is inexcusable, I see that as a poor excuse to make unfair statements about the nature of Christianity.  I have a book called The Martyr's Mirror which is about 6" thick and chronicles many stories of Christians who were persecuted and killed for their faith.  Who is the virtuous one in that case?

I have shared that I came to Christianity because, among other things,  it was rational and logical.  Though I realize this may be a new concept for some to imagine, I am not alone in my opinion.  Here is a partial list of some famous people who had the same opinion of faith, and who dedicated their work to the glory of God as Christians:

Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543) Astronomy
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)  Mathematics and Astronomy
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)  Astronomy, physics, Dynamics
Rene Descartes (1596-1650) Mathematics, Philosophy, Other Sciences
Isaac Newton (1642-1727) optics, mechanics, and mathematics
Robert Boyle (1791-1867) Chemistry and gases
Michael Faraday (1791-1867) electricity, magnetism, revolutionized physics
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) Genetics
Kelvin (William Thompson) (1824-1907) physics
Max Planck (1858-1947) Quantum Theory
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)  time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2)  (technically a deist)

Some list of dummies, huh?  None of these individuals thought the Christian faith was irrational.  In fact, all were quite outspoken proponents of the faith.

Peace,
Kristi
  •  

Kimberly

Uh.

From what I have heard at least one on that list was under house arrest and threatened with torture unless they recanted their heretical ways.

*shrug* That is the fun thing about history; The winning side writes it.


P.s. why is Albert Einstein on the list if as you put it he was technically a deist? Is not that list a list of those "who dedicated their work to the glory of God as Christians", or did Christianity include deism when I wasn't looking?
  •  

jamesBrine

hey.
    Christians make mistakes, yes they did call Galileo a hertic & treated him with an oppressive attitude. Has happened throughout history? YES! We are on the same page. Lets try for a moment move beyond this.There is more the Christian faith then its past. I simply ask that we get beyond these repetative comments and discuss some doctrines or intellectual arguments for or agianst God. If I wanted to disprove atheism on the basis of historical evil all I have to do is look at Hittler or Stalin. Both these men took their thoughts from Fredrick Nitchze an Athiest philospher (the creation of the superhuman). The point of this thread was never to continually bring up the pain of the Christian church (whether through their behavior towards the GBLT or treatment of historical figures) but instead to intellectually discuss the claims of the Christian faith. Look at the title of the thread CHRISTIANITY: TRUTH OR MYTH?
this question can not be answered by an examination of the Christian churches past and current affairs. Let us discuss the issues that surrond the topic.
     James
  •  

Kimberly

Yes?
Is that not what we are doing?

I pointed out what I perceived to be flaws in a stance.


Personally I think the question of the thread was answered by:
Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 30, 2007, 05:13:57 AM
Why does it have to be truth or myth?  Why can't it be truth and myth at the same time?

Because that is indeed what it is.
  •  

jamesBrine

hey, sorry to continue my post.
"And I also think that Christians wouldn't get as defensive about secular scrutiny if they didn't secretly know we had a point"

Maybe christians would get defensive if secular scrutiny had a point. This could be very true. I would love to test this theory and hear a point. All I have heard is an assertion that christianity is irrational, no argument for the claim or that Christians hate people that are different. As mentioned above I would LOVE to discuss the atheist/other religous perspectives with solid intellectual arguments.
  •  

Kimberly

The way I see it is that the base problem with faith is that it is not intellectual to begin with.

Plop an devout Atheist and Christian and any other faiths you wish an show them a pretty reflection on a building, or a striking cloud scape complete with majestic heavenly rays of light. We tend to see what we expect to see; If you look for miracles you tend find them. The nice Atheist sees an interesting reflection on a building, the Christian a heavenly angel. .. That pattern is quite prevalent from what I have seen.

I am all for chattering about such topics by the by.
  •  

Suzy

Quote from: Kimberly on February 02, 2007, 11:51:54 PM
Uh.
From what I have heard at least one on that list was under house arrest and threatened with torture unless they recanted their heretical ways.
*shrug* That is the fun thing about history; The winning side writes it.

I agree that a lot of people try to rewrite history.  Historians try to write God out of history nowadays.  It is the politically correct thing to do.  Do some original research.  You will find facts such as these:  Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centred system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favourite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centred system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, he saw his system as concerning the issue of how the Bible should be interpreted.


Quote from: Kimberly on February 02, 2007, 11:51:54 PMP.s. why is Albert Einstein on the list if as you put it he was technically a deist? Is not that list a list of those "who dedicated their work to the glory of God as Christians", or did Christianity include deism when I wasn't looking?

I included him because, while he never claimed to be a deist, I would categorize him there.  He in no way found the Christian faith irrational.  I included that statement out of intellectual honesty.  However,  I'm glad you asked.  Look up this remarkable man.  Here is a little of what you'll find:  Albert Einstein (1879-1955) is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

If you have questions about any others I've included on the list, just ask.

Now, please understand that I did not give that list in order to prove Christianity, or God in general.  Each one is entitled to his/her own beliefs.  I only mentioned it to show that not everyone who is a believer is a total idiot, as some on here want to claim.

Peace, Please!
Kristi
  •  

Kimberly

Not that it means much but my view is once a person has been pressured and given into another's view anything there after they say is suspect that it is indeed their view. From what I can tell Galileo was not a stupid man.


I am not aware of Albert Einstein beliefs either political nor spiritual, but I am aware of a number of quotations apparently made by him:

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty."
- Albert Einstein

"I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil."
- Albert Einstein

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."
- Albert Einstein

But, like any other regurgitated data, the authenticity is suspect.


However, my point was not Albert Einstein's beliefs but rather that, in my opinion a deist is not a Christian. If you would like, you can call me a deist, however, I am NOT a Christian and would be offended to be labeled as one, or under any OTHER religious classification.
  •  

Shana A

QuoteSecond, about the Jewish Agnostic I was under the impression that Jews follow the teaching of the Torah and the belief in YHWH. I'm confident that Jewish thinking does not seperate spiritual from secular so I was thrown off when some who said they are Jewish didn't follow Jewish religous teachings. Sorry for the misunderstanding

James,

It isn't necessary to believe in G-d to be a Jew. I am Jewish and agnostic. I observe the holidays of my ancestors, and find my own meaning in them. The teachings of my tradition at least partially inform how I live in this world. An important aspect of Judaism is to question and debate. We don't take a rabbi's word for what the teachings might mean. Even the name of g-d doesn't necessarily denote a supreme being, the name itself is that which cannot be named.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Arias

QuoteAll I have heard is an assertion that christianity is irrational

Isn't religon and spirituality, in essence, all irrational? It hinges on a belief in the spirit realms, or entities of those places, which, I might mention, are not based in the physical world, and it's the physical world that relies on being rational and concrete. So any belief in a god, or a source, or a higher or other power is irrational at best, because it's not based on cold, hard facts... But that's not saying it's wrong or untrue. :) I'm a big god ( and Fae ) lover myself.

But that's all. I won't disturb the subject any more.
  •  

Tiffany Elise

Arias;
  Why of course Christianity appears irrational. The word of God says that God hath chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Not bow nor arrow, but his Spirit bringing forth his word.
  I imagine it appeared irrational when Abraham came down from the mount and told all his male members that they had to be circumcised. Today people would look at him and wonder what he was smoking on that mount.
  It probably didn't make much sense when Moses stood before the Red Sea and told the children of Israel to stand fast and see the salvation of God prior to the parting of the waters. And if I am right it wasn't presto-changeo. A strong east wind blew all night to part them.
  It probably didn't make much sense when the children of Israel walked around Jericho praising God.
  It probably didn't make much sense when a virgin told her betrothed she was with child from God. That would go over real well today.
  I'm sure it didn't make much sense when Isaiah walked up to the religious people naked and barefoot and told them to repent. That's about like us transgenders going into a church and telling them to repent.
  The Bible says that God hath chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise and the weak things of this world to confound the things that are mighty and the base things and the things rejected.
  It seems odd that the religious people rejected the Lord and in like manner today they reject what doesn't fit their mold of the perfect Christian.
  It may just be that some of the people here that are considered an abomination to the holier-than-thous have a better relationship with the Lord because they know they need him.
  While mainstream Christianty is about a joke, I do still believe in the Lord and my faith is in him because I know that even some of the Jews I have met believe what they can't see and try to keep the law. By faith I beleive that others, both Jew and Gentile have looked as fools and been mocked for the Lord's sake.
  In closing, I do believe that Christianity appears irrational, but that's how I like it. By faith and not by sight.
  Tiff
  •  

cindianna_jones

Rational thought from the scientific definition is much different than the "rational" thought processes we define for ourselves.

Rational or scientific thought proceeds as follows:

Hypothesis:  The big guess.  What might explain the things that we see.  What overlaying principle may provide the answer?

Fact collection:  Observation and collection of samples, data, or other relevant information.  Here we find supporting evidence, discover the mathematic, and explore the unknown. We attempt to prove and disprove the Hypothesis.  If we find related evidence that does not support the hypothesis, it must be redefined.  If we find no observable and repeatable evidence to support the hypothesis, it remains a big guess.

Hypothesis and fact collection occur in no particular order.  They are usually performed in tandem.  As we collect data, we refine our hypothesis.  At some point we find repeatable methodology to create desirable results, evidence that can be verified, we get peer review.  The hypothesis must be redefined to eliminate misleading information and other explanations based on the evidence collected.

Theory:  After the evidence is collected and the hypothesis seems to explain that evidence, we create a theory.  It is the best explanation that we can create to explain the evidence.  A theory is never absolute.  But it is the strongest statement of "fact" that rational thought will present.  For example, we have the "theory of gravity".  Yes, it is ONLY a theory that if you drop a ball, it will fall, but it is fairly well accepted that it will fall. It is repeatable and can be shown to anyone whether they believe it will fall or not.

This is the process of rational thought.  Many of our cultural beliefs will never merit the test of rational thought.  One can find numerous beliefs in economics/politics for example where there are many presumptions (hypothesis) to produce desired results. We clamor to make societal changes to implement the presumptions without collecting the facts in a study.  And then, we as a society either believe or disbelieve that the change was the correct thing to do.  In this example, irrational thought made change, a belief prevailed, and no facts were ever produced to create the theory. Yet belief in the hypothesis remains strong. 

Religious belief, by nature, can not stand up to the test of the rational or scientific thought process.  It is a different animal.  If you believe that flying red kites can cure cancer for example, you can perform double blind tests with cancer patients.  You would have some fly red kites and some play marbles.  You would collect the results and then based on the evidence, you may change your hypothesis. You may discover that flying kites has no bearing on a cancer cure. But here's the thing. You BELIEVE that flying red kites cures cancer. The ability to produce repeatable results, complete the experiment, or provide data for someone else to review is not relevant.  You have a belief for which rational thought is not relevant.  Your faith in red kite flying remains secure.  This is irrational thought.  For another example, consider nutritional supplements and diet aids.  Some are being proven to work, some are not, and for the remainder, we have the true believers.

The faith that we have is based on presumptions of what we believe are facts.  For example, those of use who are Christians, Muslims, or Jews, may presume that the writings of the old prophets (compiled in the holy scriptures) are fact.  And based on that presumption, we attempt to logically discuss our faith.

The problem is that those facts considered the foundations of faith will not hold up to rational (scientific) scrutiny.  That is not to say that they may not some day be understood.  For example, we now know how weather works to some degree.  While we no longer make sacrifices to the rain gods, we might pray for rain, understanding that if the weather front doesn't come in, it ain't gonna rain.

There are many theories yet to be formulated, many facts to be found, many things yet to be understood.  We still do not "know" everything.  The concepts of irrational thought may lead us there, for irrational thought leads to curiosity and fact finding. However, it is painful to see irrational thought impede rational thought in our society.  Consider the irrational problems  that old time physicians had when they had a need to examine a corpse.  Had they not been able to examine the corpse, we would not know very much about the human body.  The rational thought of medicine would have been stopped in its tracks.

We see the word irrational as carrying a negative connotation.  And indeed it often does.  Yet, in the close examination of the term, it is helpful to understand exactly what it means when we consider what we believe.  Faith by strict definition is categorized as irrational in this context for it is founded on belief of things not seen or observed, of truth unproven and undefined.  Yet so many irrational aspects of our lives are necessary to lead happy lives.  Love, hope, happiness, and many other basic human characteristics depend on irrational thought.  Yup, faith is in there with them.

Cindi


  •  

katia

i'm against [all] organized religions, mainly because their followers [teach] fear, ignorance, bigotry and hatred amongst themselves. they [herd their children] like cattle into the slaughter on their teachings. many religious people i meet are so brainwashed that they truly do not think they are, and anyone who lives differently will go to [hell].  christians are known to do all of these things and it is unhealthy for them to criticize, hate and judge others the way they do. they constantly [force] their own beliefs on the world, no matter if anyone else shares in their faith or not. this occurs because [christianity] teaches people that god's word is the only word and the way, and so christians [must] have faith in that, and they [impose their beliefs on everyone else].  here's the thing;  nobody cares what faith you are, believe what you will, and live your own life, but also grant others the same. step back and let the world marry whom they love, have abortions if they need to be done... [even if you don't approve] maybe if christians would [stop] trying to be the [religious police], playing god by making people do as you do, people might look better at christians. religion [does not] belong in school, marriage or government. you cannot and should not pattern an entire way of living for everyone just because many years ago, a bunch of men wrote the bible and [told] people that god exists. until we have actual [proof], our [laws] and [morals] should have no religious influences whatsoever.
as you know i do not believe in deities from any religion. i respect the fact that each individual has the [free choice] to practice the religion they choose. i [have no problems] with people who [follow] a particular belief but [I don't agree with the theology]. however, i don't let that come into the way when dealing with people as i have friends and family from a variety of belief systems.

i was [raised] a christian and i honestly [never believed]. i was tossed out of sunday school more than once for asking questions the teacher could not answer and because i absolutely would not accept "because that is the way god wants it" to be an adequate answer. i have read the bible more than once cover to cover among other religious texts, talked with people of different faiths and even a college professor who teaches religion [in both secular and religious institutions] and have come to the [conclusion myself] that deities [don't exist] from the [same evidence] some of you use to believe in them. i respect your choice to do as you will, i'd like to receive the same respect back in return but i don't expect it because it's rarely forthcoming.
  •  

cindianna_jones

Quote from: jamesBrine on February 04, 2007, 01:10:09 AM
hey, (If you find my words offensive I apologize in advance)

"here's the thing;  nobody cares what faith you are, believe what you will, and live your own life, but also grant others the same. step back and let the world marry whom they love, have abortions if they need to be done... " Katia
I agree katia, let me believe what I want. Does it matter whether it is rational or irrational? harmful or not? I should be allowed to kill someone if I choose. Right? Let me live my life how I choose. If I choose to kill people thats my choice. Heck, if we are letting people do as they please lets let the religous groups play police because we need to let them believe what they choose. You may not have to listen to them, but don't they have a right to say it, after all its their right to live their own life. Isn't it? My only request is to  pilage, murder, steal, and watch abit of survivor. After all it is my life.

James,  I've worked twenty years to reestablish relationships with my family.  I've done nothing but take and eat the dish you just served for over two decades.  I've never returned anything but love to my family.  I have yet to kill anyone.

I'm locking this topic.

Cindi
  •